Episode 182: Communicating with Respect — The RIE Approach with Melani Ladygo

In this episode, I'm joined by Melani Ladygo to explore the RIE approach — a respectful, relationship-based way of communicating with children from infancy onward. Developed by Magda Gerber in the late 1970s, RIE (Resources for Infant Educarers) is built on the idea that even the youngest babies deserve to be treated as capable individuals, with mutual respect at the core.

Melani shares how RIE gives parents a practical framework for setting boundaries without being either too harsh or too permissive. We talk about what respectful caregiving actually looks like with infants and toddlers, how to respond to challenging behaviors like hitting, biting, and tantrums, and why staying calm and connected matters so much — even when emotions run high.

If you're looking for a parenting approach that blends empathy, clear boundaries, and authentic connection, this conversation will offer both inspiration and real-world tools you can start using right away.

👉 To learn more about RIE or find a certified RIE associate near you, visit RIE.org.

👉 To find Melani Ladygo check out her website

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.

For more content from Dr Jessica Hochman:
Instagram: @AskDrJessica
YouTube channel: Ask Dr Jessica
Website: www.askdrjessicamd.com

-For a plant-based, USDA Organic certified vitamin supplement, check out : Llama Naturals Vitamin and use discount code: DRJESSICA20

-To test your child's microbiome and get recommendations, check out:
Tiny Health using code: DRJESSICA

Do you have a future topic you'd like Dr Jessica Hochman to discuss? Email Dr Jessica Hochman askdrjessicamd@gmail.com.

The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Hi everybody, and welcome back to your child is normal. I'm Dr Jessica Hochman, your host, and today we're going to talk about a parenting approach that can actually transform the way you communicate with your child, starting from infancy. Yes, I said it infancy. I'm joined by Melanie latigo, and we're going to talk about the RAI approach. The Rai approach is a philosophy created by Magda Gerber in the late 1970s and it's built on one simple but powerful idea, treat babies and young children with the same respect we offer adults. This approach gives parents a path that's neither too harsh nor too permissive, and the idea is it'll help you build a strong connection while setting healthy, respectful boundaries. So if you're looking for a way to feel more confident and connected in your parenting, I think you're going to love this conversation and learning about the rye philosophy. Now let's jump in. Melanie latigo, welcome to your child is normal. Thank you for being here. Thank you for inviting me, and I love, love, love, love your title. Your child is normal because normal is a spectrum, and we are all normal. We are somewhere on that bell curve, and so I love it. Thank you so much for saying that it's actually the reason why I picked the title, because so many parents come into my office they're worried that something's wrong with their child, when really what they're seeing is totally normal. And I think when we understand Child Development a little bit better, it helps us feel more confident. And then the best part is, by feeling more confident, we feel more connected with our children, and that's a big reason why I've become so interested in the Rye approach. I think it gives parents a lot of helpful direction for how to handle those totally normal but tricky toddler behaviors. Yeah. I mean, that's what the approach really is. It's a framework. It can be seen as very black and white, because, you know, you read a book, or you see someone do something, and you think, okay, that's right, I have to do that. But really, Rye is very gray. It's Shades of Gray, and it's figuring out, you know, when to get a little darker and when to get a little bit lighter. And the wonderful thing about Rye is that it's, it is really for all ages. Magda Gerber in who's the founder of the organization, in one of her classic videos, she was talking to early education professionals, and they said, Well, what you're saying just makes so much sense. I would do that with, you know, a five year old, or a four year old, or even a two and a half year old, somebody who can talk. But what ry does is it just takes quality education and quality relationships, and it starts at infancy. And so we start with babies on their backs, but, you know, at any point, you know what, what person doesn't want to be respected, you know, including an infant. And so that's the special sauce is that we start with with infancy. So you use that word respect. Can you tie into how respect is part of the rye method? And what is the rye method in general? If you could sum it up for people listening, how would you describe it? So, so rye itself is actually the nonprofit. We're an organization. We're 501, c3, been around for 50 years. So what we but we call it rye, but it's really the educating approach. And so the educating approach is about having parents and professionals, people who are interacting with young children, zero to two, especially slowing them down and helping them develop a respectful, reciprocal relationship from the very, very beginning. And you know what that really looks like is taking assuming that the person that you're interacting with has a point of view and taking that into consideration. And you do that, you know, very, very simply by looking what are they interested in? What are they noticing? Let me slow down before I whisk you around, and let me tell you what's going to happen. Babies. Don't want to feel manipulated or forced into doing things. We want to build a sense of trust. And so we talk about respect. But when we talk about respect, what we're really talking about is, how do you develop a trusting relationship? And you do that by not being manipulated, by being told what's going to happen, by being given real choices, there's still limits and boundaries that we have to set in a reciprocal, respectful relationship. And so rye teaches parents how to set boundaries respectfully and in ways that feel good for them and ultimately feel good for children as well. I like what you're describing, but when you talk about respecting an infant, you know I can, I can picture having a respectful relationship with an adult with an older child. But how would that? How would that play out? What would that look like with an infant? So I just started a brand new class with very young babies that they cut, they come in, and we start by putting them down on their backs. We sit on the floor with them. We put them on a soft but firm space, and you make eye contact, and you say, Hi, I see you. And then maybe we notice what they're noticing. And if they start to cry, we approach with a sense of wonder. And calm to kind of encapsulate that, boy, you seem to be upset about something. I'm wondering. Are you hungry? Are you uncomfortable? Let me get a little bit closer to you. Oh, you didn't want me to get close. That seems to be too much for you. You know? What can? You know? Just paying really close attention, and when we're talking also about like the diaper changes and the poops and everything like that, that's actually a really great opportunity for you to develop a respectful relationship, because actually attachment is formed through caregiving. It is I see a need and I'm going to meet it, or I'm going to respond in a way that says, I see that there. So you're changing a diaper, you're saying, Okay, I'm going to take away this uncomfortable, maybe a little bit smelly, but I'm not going to do it as fast as possible, because that doesn't feel good. I'm going to talk to you slowly and help you lift your legs. And here's the wipe that's coming that helps babies feel relaxed, just like it helps us feel relaxed. I've noticed in my office, if I have kids that seem a little extra anxious, I really try to explain what I'm going to do next, and I can tell that makes a difference oftentimes. Yeah, you know, I can say, next, I'm going to look in your ears. You're going to feel me touch you here. Next, I'm going to look in your mouth. I'm looking for this. If you really explain what's happening ahead of time, I I can see that that alleviates anxiety. So that's so interesting to think about doing it to an infant? Yeah, absolutely. And the other, the other kind of special thing about that is it helps bring us calm, right? So if you're changing a diaper and your baby is crying and upset and you're just kind of wanting to rush through, I mean, think about what happens to your hands when you're feeling anxious, and if you're picking them up with this kind of energy, or versus picking them up and touching them with a gentle energy and talking helps re regulate you as well, and it helps bring you into a calm space. I can see that if parents keep a calm energy, that that plays a huge role in this, because energy is contagious, and so if you have a calm energy. I can see how that would influence a baby for the positive, absolutely, absolutely. And the Talking is to tell them what's going to happen. So eventually they're going to be able to be cooperative and a whole part, a part of it, but it is absolutely a way to help you stay grounded and help you not miss any steps either, right, just come into it together. You know, as you're talking, I'm thinking about how when kids are sick, if the parents come in with a calm energy, it makes such a difference, because kids look to their parents for guidance, as opposed to if a parent comes in frazzled, which happens because parents get nervous when their kids are sick. That also feeds off the kids energy, so I think that Rye is a great influence. Yeah, I mean, genuinely, that was my thought when I was going down the path of learning more about this approach, was that if it makes my life as a caregiver easier, I want to give this to parents, you know, where we can be authentic and we can be in relationship. And clearly this is something that resonates with people, and they want to they want to know it, they want to feel it, and we want to share it. So what are some misconceptions about the rye method that you'd love to clear up with my audience? So I was thinking about that. I think there's, there's kind of two camps, like there's either people think that fry is too strict and too austere, like we don't give them toys and we talk to them like they're adults, and we let them cry. And then there's the too permissive side, where it's like, oh, but you don't make them share. So it's like I said, Rye is not black and white, it's gray. So, you know, yes, I talk to children like I would talk to you. I i might sometimes use some baby talk, but generally, I'm gonna say, hey, it's time for snack, or it's time for your diaper. Why don't you come on over, we'll get your diaper change, because that feels good, and because it helps with language development. And we don't give them the typical toys. We're not a big fan of the subscriptions. Instead, we emphasize having what we call simple toys, because simple toys make active babies, and so we want to provide them with real things. I want to give them metal. I want to give them wood. I want to give them cloth. I want to give them silicone. I want to give them things that go in and out. They spend so much more time with open ended toys. And that continues a number of years ago, my niece, who is now 13 and a half, was visiting me when she was three, and I was like, so stressed, because I don't have any toys for three year olds. What am I going to do? I only have my baby toys, and they were all open ended. And you know what? She played for hours with them. And it was, it was just so refreshing to see this. Is so true in my own experience. Yeah, I remember when my daughter was teething, I went on Amazon and I bought all the popular teething toys. I bought teething rings, whatever, whatever I thought might help her teething. I had it for her, and it ended up that she just wanted to chew on my knuckles. And I remember thinking, Boy, I wasted so much money investing on teething toys when I should have just let her explore on her own. So I love that point that just this, just just letting parents know that you don't have to spend a ton of money on toys that you can let kids explore on their own. I think that sounds great. Oh my gosh. When I during COVID, I took my classes outdoors. We did not need one single toy. And that's the big piece of these classes, is allowing children to kind of work things out together. And so that leads me to, like the other, one of those other misconceptions, it's like, we don't make children share. Absolutely, I'm not going to say, especially to a child under two, that you need to share. All of the brain development tells us you can expect sharing and please and thank you, and I'm sorry, from three and a half to four, that is when you can really start to expect to see that come on a regular basis. So when I've got two children who are struggling over a toy, I don't want to jump in and solve this and mitigate this, because what I want for children is to figure out how to work it out together. That does not mean I don't do anything and I turn around. It's not Lord of the Flies. I keep children safe. And if someone snatches something out of someone's hands, and first of all, if the first person doesn't care, then I don't care. It's they've moved on. But if the person whose toy gets snatched cares, then what I want to do is make the person who took the object aware of what's happening for the person that had been holding on to it. Because when you think about it, it doesn't feel good to take something from someone else. It just doesn't but you don't know that until you've done it, and then you've taken it, and then you're sitting there with that feeling of, oh, I want children to feel that, because that is the feeling that is going to motivate them to do something different, to maybe bring it back, to not snatch it in the future, like it's all just a learning process. They can see in real time, that they upset somebody, that they made somebody feel bad. And I think that is valuable information. There's a similar example when kids play on the when they play out at recess. There's a lot of conversation about how we need to let kids work things out on their own. Because if somebody, for example, puts sand on a friend and they cry, there's a lot of value in that child seeing how they made somebody cry. They can see in real time that it made somebody feel bad. And I think that's where the that's hopefully where the learning comes from. Yeah, and when we jump in too quickly to mitigate that, then we are taking the attention from what's happening to the other person, and we're bringing it to what's happening with the parent, which we don't need to do, they will feel we're all going to even a seasoned rye people will will clench when something gets taken, because we are social creatures. We want to be in society. We want to work things out. So, you know, someone will take a toy. We'll all go, whoa, whoa. Yeah, I don't think she was done with that? Hmm, yeah, you're holding on to it and and not to force the answer, because, on the other hand, the person who's had the object taken away. So then they have a lesson here. Do I hold on to it more next time? Do, do I re regulate with help, or do I re regulate by myself? Do? What are my strategies for getting this back? Maybe it's asking for help from a parent, but maybe it's like just noticing that they put it down, and I think I'll get it later. Or maybe I can go trade a toy. It's it's giving children the opportunity to problem solve. And this is what people need. This is this is what we need to survive, to be, speak, comfortable with problem solving, because life has a lot of problems. So I love getting into these real world examples, because I think this is where parents struggle, where we all struggle. So I just want to clarify this. So this scenario where a child takes another kid's toy, let's say the kid who had the toy taken from them comes to a parent and they and they're crying. They're upset. My toy was taken How should a parent respond to that moment? I'm so glad you brought that up, because the first thing you want to do is you want to empathize, right? I saw you were holding on to that. You had a plan for that. Oh, and they came and they took it, and now they have it, and that's really upsetting. So we want to start with the RE regulation, because there's no learning that's happening when we're triggered right when we're in a fight, flight or freeze stage. There's no learning that's happening. So we're going to comfort and we're going to talk about it, and as they calm down, we might say, I wonder what we should do about this next. Just it. And that's kind of where, like that other misconception of rye comes in, where, you know, we don't say we don't rush through the fears and the tears. We allow children to feel those feelings, because those are also part of life. And again, we're not just like, let me know when you're done crying. We're there, and we're empathizing with them, and we're helping them recover. A parent actually is in class with her second child now, and she came into class just the other week, and she was talking about how her four and a half year old was not loving having a baby brother, and he was saying things to her, like, you don't love me as much. We never spend time together. And he was just really upset. And this has been a pattern. And previously, she had said, Well, I pick you up after school, and of course, I love you as much as your brother. And like, she just kind of kept coming back with reason, reason, reason. And this past week she said, that sounds really hard. That's just that doesn't sound like it feels good, and that was all he needed, was just for someone to see his experience. And that is what we teach parents, is come and empathize and and get re regulated, and then figure it out what you're going to do next. I think I can see that with a child, with any human being, actually, it goes a long way if you can let somebody know that you see why they're uncomfortable, why they're upset. So it makes sense that it would feel good to a little child, absolutely. Now, what about, okay, the kids that hit, that bite, that physically bother another child. What would rye? What would the rye method look like in that situation? Because it is hard to see another child inflict pain on another kid. It's hard not to intervene as a parent. Yeah, so, and I don't want that to happen. I do want children to feel comfortable coming close and touching each other, but if I see a child hit or bite or pull hair, I'm going to stop it. And the most important thing that you can do with this, or any limits that you're trying to set is I want you to say what you want them to do. So if someone's pulling hair, you say, open your hand if they're going if they're going to hit. You can say, I'm not going to let you hit. You may say that you want this. You may reach for it. You may tell them, I will not let you hit. So you're going to set that limit. I'm going to put my hand to keep you from hitting. And if I'm noticing that a child is really struggling and is doing a lot of hitting or a lot of biting. I want to see what's what's bringing up this behavior. Is it because they are having trouble communicating? Is it because they're tired or hungry or sick? Is it because the room is too stimulating? Is it because their mom just walked out and they're having a hard time with that? And like, I want to address whatever is the underlying issue. If I'm noticing that there's a continual issue with a child that is hurting another child, and then, you know, be close and help children figure out the pro social way to express whatever it is they're needing. So it sounds like you could start by acknowledging why they're frustrated. Oh, I see that you're upset that your mommy left for the day, but I cannot let you hit. Need to open your hand. Yeah, I will not let you hit. I'm gonna open your hand and and then I'm gonna see where we go from there. Do we? Do we need to cuddle? Do we need to get comforted? Of course, there could also just be like a moment of just frustration, or especially with biting exploration, even with hair pulling, with babies and toddlers, it's just sort of like this. I mean, this feels good, you know, to wrap your fingers into something and really tug. And so I might start by honoring the impulse. So if I'm seeing a child is doing a lot of pulling of hair, I have lots of doll babies. I'm not going to let you pull people's hair, but you can pull this doll baby's hair. You can go out and pull up the grass, because that feels good in your fingers. If you're biting. I'm not going to let you bite, but you can bite this you can bite your shirt. You can bite this toy. You know, I'm going to give you kind of an out, a pro social outlet for for whatever that angst is. Now, what about the kid that was afflicted? What about the kid that did get the bite? How do you respond to that child? Yeah, that hurt. Oh, my goodness. And what I'm also doing is I'm modeling what I would like the person who bit to do for the person that's been bitten. Like that looks like it really hurt. I'm going to comfort you. Should we get an ice pack? What happens more often in my classes is there's the parent of the child that did the biting is the person that's most stricken by what happened, right? Because it's devastating to watch your child hurt someone else, and so that's what I say to them. Is model. You know, come in, check on that other baby, and then, and then also be checking in with your baby, because remembering you've in general, if, especially if it's an act of quote, unquote, aggression, it's coming from a place of dysregulation for the person, from the person who's hitting or biting or scratching, right? And so we want to be empathetic with them, too. I actually got bit in a classroom recently. I had two siblings, and the older one, who's about three, was climbing up the slide after his younger brother, and he was really intent on going up and down and up and down and up and down. And the one year old not so adept. And so the three year old's idea is, well, I just chuck my brother off of the Pickler triangle, because he's in my way. And so I put my hand there, and I said, I will not let you push him. And I started to say the next part, but he was feeling thwarted, and he bit me. And so I yelped because it hurt. And then I moved him off the slide, picked him up and I moved him, and I said, it is not okay to bite me. I know you're angry. And then he dissolved and got comforted by his mother, and then we talked about it, we and we told the story, as Tina Payne Bryson, so eloquently says, told the story about what happened to help him connect all the dots, and he did not go get me an ice pack or anything, because that's the other thing I think parents really need to know, is that not every single interaction has to be a learning. We don't have to it doesn't all have to work out perfectly every time, it's okay for we're all human. We make mistakes, and they are new humans, so they're going to make more mistakes. Now, what about for people that learned that time outs were a good disciplinary action, what does rye say about time outs? I am with you all the way. They're acting out. They're causing a disruption. They're not regulated. I'm hearing you say we're going to leave the situation. We're going to go to a more peaceful place. Check, check, check. Where I'm going to disagree with you is that you're going to say, I'm going to leave you in your room until you figure this out. Because what that says is, I don't want to be with you when you have these big emotions, so I'm going to wait until you put that away by yourself. Absolutely removing a child from an over stimulating environment where they're not able to control themselves, is 100% what you should do, but to be with them, and to be that, as Janet Lansbury says, that not not even kind of the ship that sails with them, but like the anchor at the bottom, I'm here for me. I'm here for you, and you can ride those waves, and the anchor is going to stay right here as you start to re regulate and calm down and get into a better space. And I also want to give a lot of space, because it's also very triggering for a parent to have a child that's that's acting out like that. And so it may not feel like you are able to be that safe. Harper, so if there is another person that you can tag out with, like if you feel like you're going to be responding in a way that's going to escalate, as opposed to de escalate, yeah, if you can tag out, or if you can come up with strategies to help you come back to center so that you can be there, it's important. And also, if, if you snap and you yell, not great. But you know what is great, the repair that comes after, yeah, we are having a really hard time, I brought you up to your room to help you calm down, but I got really angry and I yelled, and that was scary, and I'm sorry. That is such a powerful message for children. And I want somebody who can apologize, you know, and I want to be in a safe in a relationship where I can say I messed up, and that is what is right. Ry is all about is raising these humans that are connected with themselves and and noticing how how they impact other people. When I was reading Janet Lansbury book, no bad kids, I realized how many quote, unquote, mistakes I made as a parent, for example, with 15 month olds, when they act out, I would always distract them. They're so easily distracted. And then, according to this book, that's not how you want to handle it. You want to actually talk them through it. You want to give them that empathy and give them the boundaries. And so that was eye opening for me, well, and I always say distraction is like a hammer in your toolbox. You don't use it for everything, right? You're not going to use it to put in your cabinets. You're going to need a screwdriver for that, but you need a hammer sometimes, and so it's okay to use it sometimes, and especially if you're in a place where it's like, okay, I need to get this done. And they're so they're dysregulated and they're upset, and I know that if I just step outside, we're both going to get a breather and we'll be able to come back in and just, you can even call it out. Let's step outside and re regulate together. But yes, definitely we are all humans, and we make mistakes. Here's another one that I hear from parents. Lot kids refuse to go in the car seat. And my mom laughs about this, because when I was a kid, car seats weren't so complicated, and she feels like they're just so they're so restrictive for kids. So it makes sense that they would react in a way that they don't want to be in them. Absolutely. How would you respond to a kid when a parent's in a rush they need to get them in the car seat? This is a safety issue. Is there ever a time when you can use those boundaries more forcefully to get a kid to do what you want them to do? So I always say, if you can take two steps back and start to involve, involve them in something, to get a little cooperation in something else, as you're approaching the sticking point, you're going to have a little bit better of a time. Like we it's time to get in the car. Do you want to carry this bag or this bag? Do you want to race to the car? You know, do something that's going to, like, put you both in the same on the same page before you even get there. And then this is the other thing. Like, we think we need to rush, rush, rush through everything, but rushing can slow us down. So if you take a big breath, get yourself calm and regulated, is it going to take me two minutes to get them in the car seat or 30 seconds? Is that 90 seconds going to be worth it? Can I just take an extra breath, I'm gonna show you the car seat. I know you hate the car seat. Oh, my goodness, I'm gonna I'm holding you. I'm getting the straps ready and and talking them through it. It's coming. Okay, here we go. I'm gonna put you in, and now I'm gonna strap you in because, yeah, like Janet says, You are the confident CEO, you have the information. It's just not safe for you to ride around in the back of the car seat without without a strap. And this is where, like, we had talked about the difference between authoritarian and permissive, and rise kind of right down the middle. Authoritarian would be like, Get in the car. I I don't care how you're feeling, I'm going to strap you in. And permissive is we're going to sit in the car for half an hour until you decide that you're ready to get in. And so ry is I hear you. You don't want to be in. I am going to be pushing your I know this doesn't feel comfortable. I'm going to be helping you. I need to keep your body safe. And you can be mad about me. You can be mad about that with me. That's okay, yep, and I'm going to get in the front seat. I will be right here. You can keep telling me how angry you are, and that's okay. What I really like about Rye is it has, it seems to strike the balance of both, that there's empathy. You treat the child respectfully, but also the parent is in charge of providing a boundary and making sure that the child is doing what the parent thinks is best? Yeah. I mean, when we talk about a respectful relationship, there are two people in a relationship, and so both people need to feel good in that relationship. And so I don't think most permissive parents that get too gentle tend to feel uncomfortable in that relationship because it's resentful to have your your life dictated by a toddler and in the authoritative way, I imagine both people don't feel super great, and so in the Rye approach, hopefully most of the time, you're going to both be feeling okay. You know, one person is going to feel more okay for a little while, and then the other person. But the whole point is that we're raising people that we want to be with. I like to remind myself too, because I do really believe this is true, that kids want boundaries. They may not think they want boundaries, but they crave them, and they're better off for them. In Janet lansbury's book, she talks about how, if you think about if you're driving a car on a bridge, if there are no guard rails on that bridge, you're going to drive across that bridge a lot slower because you're not sure where the boundaries are, but if there are guardrails there, you're going to drive across that bridge with with more confidence. And seeing that, thinking about that, that makes a lot of sense to me, that we do want those guardrails in place. Kids want to know that there's a limit to how much dessert that they that they're supposed to have. You know that? They want to know that there's a bedtime in place that feels good. They want to know that there are limits to what they are supposed to do. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we if you don't give them boundaries, they will look for them. They will keep looking for them. And yes, they will push up against them, yeah, but they are supposed to push up against them. And you know. You can also say the bedtime is this time, and they push up against it. And you can always say, You know what, you're right. Maybe it is too early for bed today, like we can you can always move your boundaries in communication. You don't have to be rigid with them, but they have to be there. The respectful piece of rye resonates with me so much, because any relationship thrives with mutual respect. So it makes a lot of sense that that is the basis of rye. Yeah, and, and that is, you know, we were raising a generation of respectful people who are going to look for that in their friendships and in their relationships. Now, what about with tantrums when kids are so. Dysregulated. How would rye advise a parent to respond in that situation? So when you're with a child who's having a tantrum, I always say like, you need to be kind of like that soft pillow that's there to absorb it, as opposed to the hard, metal cookie sheet that is going to reverberate against it. There's when a child is in a tantrum, they are, like I said earlier, there's no learning happening. There. They are literally, this is really important for parents to know. When you're in a tantrum, the your ear bones, the little ear bones that you hear with, they get closer together. So it's like literally harder to hear because you're in a protective state, because you are so, so so upset, and so you kind of have to just ride the wave until they have come back from it. And there's actually a while ago, there was this really beautiful video of a of a dad and a baby who was having a huge meltdown, just completely falling apart, and like sometimes throwing herself in his arms and sometimes throwing herself on the floor, and he was just available until she was able to finally just dissolve and finish crying, and then they regrouped. And so that's that's where you want to be when a child is having a tantrum. I think this is such an important reminder for parents that while they're tantruming, there really isn't a lot that we can do. They're totally dysregulated. They're not listening. So yelling at them or getting mad at them isn't going to help the situation. It's not going to help and it might make it worse. So if possible, to just ride the wave until it's it's over, and then as they, you know, kind of recover, then again, go back and tell the story. You were really upset about that. I wonder if it's because we hadn't had lunch yet, or I'm wondering if you were tired, or there may not be an answer, right? Children are growing, and so much is happening in their brains, and all of that is happening through hormones. So it could just be a hormonal imbalance at that moment, it's just feeling like the world is too much. I have to tell you that myself as a parent, I think, where I struggled a lot, where I feel like I could have done a lot better and can do better, is when my kids tantrum, I find it really hard to stay calm. I almost find that I have to walk away or take a breather, because it's hard. It's hard to watch them get upset without letting it upset me. And so I like that rye reminds us that there's really nothing that we can do. And also I like to remind myself that eventually the tantrum does end, and when it ends, that's when we parents can act and try to repair and try to have a growing moment come from it. Yes, absolutely, I think someone is absolutely superhuman if they can learn how to not let their child's tantrum affect them. And honestly, do you really want to hang out with someone who you can't influence with your feelings? Like, wouldn't that feel so uncomfortable, like you're falling apart and the other person is just like, I'm here for you, like that that just doesn't feel human, not that we, you know, want to go all the way to like, be triggered and be frustrated, but it's, it's, it's part of human nature, yes. And I also think, going back to what we were talking about, human development and natural child development, I think if we remind ourselves that this is what kids go through, their frontal lobe is still developing, it's normal for kids to fall apart, especially if they're tired or they're hungry or who knows, as you pointed out before, but it's all normal, and it's all part of the joys of parenting. Yeah, yeah. Magda says we underestimate infants and we overestimate toddlers, and I think we overestimate children and teenagers too. You know, we forget that frontal lobe is developing until well into the 20s. It's all part of the normal developmental process. I have to remind myself that, okay, so now, just for parents listening in the moment, sometimes it's hard to remember what to do. Do you have any go to scripts that we can share with parents so that they can sort of practice those scripts, or think about those scripts so that if they are in a moment where their child's dysregulated, that that they can go back to and use I get that asked that question a lot, and what I say is, you know, I can give you some of the things that I would say, but it's important for you to try on and see how it sounds coming out of your mouth and how you feel and what's in your vernacular, because the other piece of Rye is the authenticity. And so if we lean too heavily into the scripts, then that's that's really not going to be that helpful. So think about what your desire is. You know, when a child is having a tantrum, like, Okay, I want them to recover, and I want them to know that I'm here. So how do I how do I communicate that like the way I Melanie will communicate that is, I will say, Gosh, I see you. That's really upsetting. Your mom just walked out the door and you're crying, and that's really, really hard, but it's important to. People come up with, think about what your goal is, and then just talk about it in the most simple terms. I think about in my head, I say empathy, followed by the boundary. So you see the child, you try to see why they're frustrated, and then as the parent, you let them know why they can't do that, or what you expect of them. Does that sound right? That sounds good? Yeah. Magda said, reflect respect. Respond. So you see what's happening. You take their point of view into consideration and yours, and then you figure out what the next thing is. Reflect respect, respond. Now here's another one that I hear a lot from parents that I think would be helpful to get your take on. Sometimes, when parents provide a boundary or they're strict, the child responds by laughing. And that frustrates so many parents, because it doesn't feel like the natural response. What would you say about that response? Yeah, well, and laughing is, it's a response, you know? It can be a fear response, or it can be like, Oh my god, I did. Can't believe I did that thing. Like, have you ever like, Have you ever like, done something that you were so stunned that you did that you kind of laughed at yourself even though you were like that? I can't believe I just did that. And so that's, that's where it comes from. And I try to tell parents, it's so hard because it's triggering, but try not to respond to the laughing like you could say, you know, I've told you not to hit your sister, and they just laugh. And you say, you just used to say, Yeah, I mean it. You're not allowed to hit your sister and like, just just not even give a response to it, just not give it attention. It's true, what we what we give attention to, they'll do more of so that makes sense, just to try your best to ignore it. Yeah. And then again, like that laughing is probably coming from, like, if they've hit their sister, and now you, the parent has come in and said, Don't do this. They're laughing. It's probably like, kind of a stress response. And so you're going to continue to enforce the boundary, but then we're going to talk about it later. Hey, I came in and I said, don't hit your sister. And that's that probably was kind of startling. Let's tell the story about what happened. And yeah, then, and then you laughed. I think you were surprised that I came in so strongly. I have to say, I'm really enjoying this conversation. I think for so many parents, we love our children to the moon. We want nothing more than to have a beautiful relationship with them, but when they act up, which all kids do, I think it really helps to have a guiding principle on how to respond, and rye is really a helpful method. So thank you for explaining it to everybody. Rye is an approach that is designed to bring comfort and joy to parents and to children, and that is what I hope people will take away from it. Now, for people that are listening, they've loved what they've heard so far about rye, they want to learn more. Can you direct them to where they can learn from you, or any resources that you recommend? Sure. So Rye is our website. R, I, E, dot, O, R, G, that is where you will find all of our associates. Rye has been around for almost 50 years. We have over 80 associates all over the world, not just here in Southern California, but we have people in Washington, in New York, in Canada, in Australia, New Zealand, China. We are very well spread out and and most of this work is, of course, face to face and personal, but you can always find someone that you can hop on the phone with, or you can have an email exchange with rye associates are people who have gone through the multi year training to teach other people about this work. So that's what you want to look for if you're looking to take a class or take a course or get a little bit more information. So R, i e, dot O, R, G and Melanie, I have to tell you that my patients that go to you, they say the best things about you. They've loved your guidance. So thank you so much for being here and for sharing your thoughts about ry. It's been really helpful. Thank you so much for inviting me. This was a really fun conversation, and I appreciate it. Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of your child is normal. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review, wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow. You can also follow me on Instagram at ask Dr Jessica, see you next Monday. Bye.