Ep 189: Catch Them When They’re Good: Behavioral Psychology for Better Parenting with Dr. Larry Waldman

In this episode of Your Child Is Normal, I’m joined by Dr. Larry Waldman, a behavioral psychologist and author of Who's Raising Whom?, to unpack how behavioral psychology can make parenting easier — and more effective. We talk about how small, consistent changes in how we respond to our children can lead to big shifts in their behavior.

You’ll learn:

• Why kids sometimes misbehave just to get attention — and how to turn that around
• How to use praise and logical consequences that actually work
• Why consistency matters more than perfection

Whether you’re dealing with whining, ignoring, or sibling chaos, this conversation is full of practical tools to help you parent with less stress and more confidence.

📘 Learn more about Dr. Waldman’s work at topphoenixpsychologist.com
📚 Books mentioned: Who's Raising Whom?, Coping with Your Adolescent, Love Your Child More Than You Hate Your Ex

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.

For more content from Dr Jessica Hochman:
Instagram: @AskDrJessica
YouTube channel: Ask Dr Jessica
Website: www.askdrjessicamd.com

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Transcript

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Welcome back to your child is normal. I'm your host, Dr Jessica Hochman, and today I'm joined by Dr Larry Waldman, a psychologist with a doctorate in clinical psychology, and he has decades of experience helping families better understand and respond to their children's behavior. He's the author of several parenting books, including who's raising whom a personal favorite. In this episode we explore how simple, consistent parenting strategies rooted in behavioral psychology can help shape your child's behavior over time. Behavioral psychology focuses on how behavior is learned through reinforcement, and how applying these simple principles can help parents handle everyday challenges with greater confidence. And let's be honest, who out there wouldn't like to parent with greater confidence? And before we get started with today's episode, if you're finding your child is normal, helpful, please take a moment and leave a five star review. It helps other parents find the show, and it also reminds them your child is normal. Dr, Larry Waldman, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today. I'm so looking forward to hearing your insights. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. So you've written seven books, three books which apply to parenting directly, tell everybody about your career, what you do now, and how you were so inspired to write all of these books, I knew I wanted to help people, and the field of psychology certainly intrigued me, so I got my masters in educational psychology at University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, and when we came out to Arizona in 1973 I started out as a school psychologist with Scottsdale schools, while at the same time, I worked on my doctorate at Arizona State. I met my mentor, Dr Carl ream. He was the Clinical Director of the special development clinic at Milwaukee Children's Hospital and I saw firsthand the power of behavioral psychology applied appropriately, because some of those kids we turned completely around. Now, back in those days, this is now early 70s, a lot of those kids were kept at home. The school could keep a disabled child out of school and say, Look, you're too much of a problem. We can't deal with you. It wasn't until 1974 that this that the federal special education law was passed where schools were now required to provide an adequate education to every child regard, regardless of disability, but some of those kids actually returned to school even before that law was passed, Because of the way we managed and shaped their behavior now and then I saw, of course, when I got into private practice, that these these techniques, are very applicable to normal families, if you will, because I was meeting so many parents who Were getting driven crazy by their kids, and so I spent lots of time basically teaching parents to become behavior therapists, if you will. That's wonderful. What I'm so interested in is you have this deep foundation of behavioral psychology. And I think what's so fascinating to me is you can apply these principles to help parents with the most challenging moments that arise with parenting. So I find this personally extra interesting, because not only am I a parent of three kids, but also I was a psycho biology major in college where we talked a lot about this applying behavioral psychology, but to animals and not really so much to children. So as I read your books, it's so interesting that we can apply those same principles to parenting our kids when it comes to rewards and consequences. So what I would love to do with you is asking some specific examples as it relates to common struggles that parents have with their kids, and maybe it will help parents the next time they come across a challenge with their kids. Sure, the essence of behavioral psychology is essentially that how we respond to consequences of our behavior shape us, and so therefore good parenting in a sentence comes down to applying appropriate consequences to their children's behavior, and that's of course, over. Oversimplifying it. And as I like to say, you know, understanding behavioral psychology is very simple, applying it is very difficult. So with with behavioral psychology it, you know, the question becomes, and the question that parents should ask themselves is, what is he or she learning? What? What is the lesson being learned here? That's what it comes down to. Basically, I want to make sure people understand what we're what we're talking about when you talk about behavioral psychology and how it's simple to understand. Can you explain it? Well, the focus is on what the person is doing. And of course, in the case of parenting, you know, is what is the child's behavior. And therefore, as parents, you know, we want to raise independent and responsible young people. That was in my head when I became a parent. I have two grown sons now, so I'm very proud of them and so on. Plus, they're not asking me for any money here. So, job well done. Yeah, exactly. But you as I'm parenting, you know, I'm not doing it, just by the seat of my pants, if you will. And unfortunately, most parents don't have a plan. That doesn't work. It's confusing. You mentioned earlier that behavioral psychology is applied, let's say, even to animals. Well, yes, you know. So using that, if you get a puppy, for instance, and you want to potty train that puppy, okay, you know. And, and so if the pop, if the puppy you know has an accident, you know, you might say no, and so forth. And then you take the puppy out, and then the puppy you know goes, you know, on the lawn where you want it to go. So if you on a consistent basis, you reward the puppy, you know, for going outside. The puppy very quickly comes to learn, oh, when I go pee, pee outside, I, you know, I get petted and cared for and treated, etc. Okay, well, it's kind of how it works with kids as well. The problem is, is we is many parents are very inconsistent in in how they deal with them. So also the truth of the matter is, is the parents are actually creating a bigger problem for themselves, and the way they do that is that they're actually giving the child, like the puppy, a little treat at the wrong time. What's the most valuable thing we as parents can provide our children, especially our young children, attention, exactly, okay. You read the book. Attention our time now, remember, kids are born naked and naive, okay? They don't know what's good or bad, right or wrong. They have nothing to compare it to. They live within the confines of their home, and what they see is, as far as they're concerned, the reality their reality. But like any child, of course, they want parental attention. They crave it well, and as you know, if you fail to give adequate attention, even to a newborn, that can create serious medical problems. So attention is critical. Kids need it, want it and deserve it, and they'll do anything for it. They'll act in any way to get it exactly, of course, they want it. So you see, then it's up to us to determine when they get this valuable commodity. It's, you know, cognitively, I know that attention is so important for kids, but I have to say, in real life, as a working mom with a working spouse and three young kids, it's hard to give the attention that I wish I could to each of my children, just just as a commentary. I think for parents to know you just want to do the best that you can. I don't believe there's such a thing as a perfect parent, but I think the idea is you just want to do your best and give quality attention as best that you can. Yeah. Absolutely look. I mean, you've got to put food on the table and so on. As you pointed out, kids will do what they can to get attention, and they don't know the difference truly, between what we call good attention and bad attention. In fact, sometimes bad attention is more interesting than getting good attention, if you will. I'm just thinking of my own children last night, my my son takes great pleasure in agonizing his his sisters. He loves the attention he gets from bothering them. This has been researched. Studies have been done where they've gone into homes and observed and so forth, but basically what we find is that about 90% of the time when children are misbehaving, they get their parental attention. Unfortunately, only about 10% of the time when the child is behaving. Well, do they get parental recognition? Okay? So from your perspective, it sounds like we parents are not rewarding positive behavior sufficiently, absolutely, and we're over reacting to the inappropriate behavior. So can you give an example of what appropriate positive attention would look like? I know you referenced the term the sleeping dog phenomenon. Can you? Can you, can you explain what that is and go into it a little bit, because this was eye opening for me, because I think that I am that parent sometimes where I see my kids doing good behaviors, like, let's say they sit down to do their homework. And I think I, you know, after reading your book, I realize I don't give them enough praise for those behaviors. Exactly. That's what I call it, the sleeping dog philosophy. You know, when the dog is sleeping, you leave it alone, right? Well, you know, if you walk by your child's room and there he or she is sitting there studying. Take 10 seconds, walk in there, put your hand on their back and go, you know, Millie or Susie. And so, you know, it really, it really is so nice to see you working so hard and so forth. You know, you're, you're going to be really, really smart, you know, and walk out and what child, what child won't love hearing praise from their parents. I'm 44, years old. I still love hearing praise from my parents. Exactly. That's true. I know that intuitively it makes sense. We're all we all know this. But just as a reminder that kids love hearing praise. So if you're seeing a behavior that you want to see more of, let them know, absolutely, and you'll see more of it if you let them know, right? Sure. I mean, you know, the brother and the sister are playing a game together, and there's no shouting, there's no yelling. You walk over and say, Hey guys, I really appreciate the way you can play so so quietly and cooperatively. There's no yelling, and you're being nice to each other, you know, when you're finished with the game, I have some brownies we can make for dessert. Yeah. And so there it is. You know, instead of waiting and hoping, oh, I hope you keep, they keep playing nicely together, because as soon as that starts there, as soon as the mom, then in you come, okay, well, duh, look what's happened. And of course, the you know, the brother, you know, was going, you know, I teased my sister a little bit she saw and here comes mom. Look at this, you know, I got my sister going, I got my mom going, right? And then, as the principal of behavioral psychology says, if they get good, fun attention for their behaviors, whatever it may be, they're going to do more of it. Exactly. They're going to follow the trail, okay, just like the puppy learns, you know, to go outside, they're going to do more of that. Because that's when, you know, that's, that's when they get, you know, get their rewards and so on. Now, the other important key point that you mentioned when it comes to rewarding positive behavior is doing it immediately that you don't want to wait too long before you provide that reward. Well, yes, and there, and there are some elements of that, okay, delayed reinforcement is just about useless to tell a, you know, a six year old, gee, you know you're being a good boy. You know, at four o'clock when I finish work, and this is now nine in the morning, at four o'clock when we finish. Which will go to the park. Well, you know, that's That's like telling adults save money for a rainy day. And the other important piece in all the examples that I have previously given here, I've been very specific about pointing out the behavior. I'm not saying, Good job. Way to go. I'm proud of you. No, I'm being very specific, pointing out the very particular behavior that I am reinforcing the look, oh, Billy and Susie, you're playing so cooperatively. You're taking turns. There's no yelling, so see now what the children have learned, okay, is that, Oh, these are the behaviors I need to exhibit to get the attention that I crave. I also think about my dog. I know dogs are different than humans, but if my dog does a behavior for me, like she sits when I ask her to, I have to immediately praise her. If I wait five minutes later, she's going to have no idea what I praised her for. She's not going to connect that she sat and I was happy about that. So you have to think about that similarly with kids. Kids have a fleeting memory. You have to reward them in real time, right? If you wait 30 seconds with your dog, it's gone. No, it has to right then. And you know, let's, let's say you know you are planning to go to the park. Well, what better time to do it, immediately after they've done some really nice behavior. Okay, they don't know you are planning to go or do this or that, but now we connect the two. Oh, and then on the way to Oh, I'm gonna have so much fun at the park. Isn't it nice that you did such and such and so and so we can now go to the park. Yes, when kids have good behavior, you want to send the message that with that good behavior will come more fun experiences, happier parents, a good day all around I used to say in workshops that my kids, my two sons, manipulated me all during their childhood. They behaved well, and then I reinforced them. I think this is a really good point to bring up, because too much of our time can can feel like we are disciplining our kids chastising them, telling them that what they're doing is wrong or inappropriate, or correcting their behavior, and I'd much rather spend the time rewarding them. That just feels better. So I think that's such an important reminder. And especially as they grow older, they do more and more of that. Yes, and if the ultimate I always think about the ultimate goal with parenting, and that is, I want to have a great relationship with my relationship with my kids. I want to be I want them to call me when they're adults. And I think if you have good experiences with them, that's much more likely to happen, absolutely. Yeah. Now, now, what about negative consequences? So unfortunately, as we all know, if you're anyone who spends time with kids. Kids like to do negative things for behavior. So you know, whether it's whining or yelling or misbehaving in one way or another, it's what kids do. So how? And this can cause a lot of stress for parents, because I think a lot of us don't know how to react. Our instincts are often to to react along with them. So as a behavioral psychology, what do you what's your advice for us, parents? Okay, when it comes to the negative piece, again, I can't over emphasize the positive piece, but you know, we're not, you know we're not living in Eden here, you know, there's, there's, there's always going to be some gray clouds. And so we're all human. After all, we're not, unfortunately, we're not perfect. All right, so part of of this approach here is that the parent tests become an objective observer of their children's behavior. They have to do that because they have to recognize when it's good, and then they have to recognize when it's not. Now when it's not, you have another question to ask yourself, and that is, is it dangerous? Harmful or destructive, if the kids playing with fire or taking a running around with a hammer or a knife or something, or abusing their sibling or kicking the wall, okay, there needs probably to be some intervention there. Here again, that's been pretty well researched, and what we find is very, very little of inappropriate behavior meets that first category, dangerous, harmful. Destructive. Most of the time it's whining, complaining, procrastinating, you know, things of that nature. So you're saying that most, if most of the time, these behaviors are not destructive. We don't have to intervene, you know, we don't have to call 911, sound, the fire alarms. They're just irritating behaviors, is that what you're saying, or they procrastinate. My kids learned early on that, you know, we there was a set time to be like, be dressed and so forth, and if they were dressed and so forth, you know, we might even have time to watch a little TV or something before the bus came or whatever. In fact, my younger son learned a couple of times that, you know, if he wasn't dressed in time when I had to go and I had a clock, that means they could set the time, so they knew exactly when they needed to be dressed. I walked in his room. Great, you know, he hadn't, didn't he happened. Didn't have a shirt on, didn't have his shoes or socks. Grabbed the shirt, grabbed took them by the hand, placed them in the car and picked up the other other kids. In fact, I loved it. Soon as a little girl walked, you know, came into the car, she looked at Chad and said, Chad, why are you naked? And he was all because he didn't have a shirt on you. And then I dropped him off at school, and then other people were looking at him like, why aren't you dressed? And so forth. See, that's a lovely logical consequence to that procrastinating behavior. Did he get any of my attention? No, what did he get? Discomfort, social discomfort by not being dressed well, that's life. And see, remember, I'm trying to raise independent and responsible young people, and life works that way. You know, when you're not responsible, when you're not independent, life gives you ashes. You know, you get you get fired, or you get disciplined and so forth. You get criticized. Well, that's what happens. I like hearing this example from you as a parent, because I like in the beginning, you fast forward and let us know that your kids are independent. They're they're not asking you for money. They have their own families. So it's great to hear that what you did and how your techniques for parenting were fruitful. Kudos to you. Well, thank you. Yeah. Now I have a question for you. No relating to these non dangerous behaviors. A big example, I hear parents all the time. They bring their kids in for checkups, and they say, can you just check my my kids hearing? They never listen to me. I ask them things all the time, and I and I can't help but wonder maybe their hearing isn't right, because I'll ask them to, you know, pick up their clothes, 567, times, and they ignore me. And so vast, vast majority of the time their hearing is is, in fact, perfect hearing. And parents are bewildered. They say, I swear, I ask them questions and I ask them with a serious tone, and they just ignore me. So how can parents use behavioral psychology to reinforce behaviors like listening? All right, the kids were responsible for keeping the room clean, okay? And they knew when, when they left for school their room was clean or and if things are off the floor. Now, as I would walk, walk back to my room and so forth, and I'd look in and there's, there's a shirt or maybe a pair of shoes lying out, what I simply did is pick them up and hid them well. If they're going to leave them out, you know, and not put them away. The natural consequence of that behavior is you don't get to wear them for a while. And they came back from school and said, Well, I want Where's, where's my good shoes? I said, You mean the ones you left out. I don't know where they are for now, maybe with you, learn to put them back up, you know. Okay, nice, little logical con, not a big yell screen, so forth. If you leave the MC, that's life. So the idea is a logical consequence. So so to draw upon your example, if they're not listening to you and you say, Billy, can you please clean your room? Can you please clean your room? Can you please clean your room? The toys and the clothes that they left out. If you instead clean them up when they go, when they next go looking for their toys and their clothes, you can say, well, they're not here. You didn't listen to me when I asked you to clean them up, so my feeling was they weren't that important to you, so I put them away, and then they're not there for them when they want them. Is that the idea? Yeah, exactly. You know. There is a logical consequence for it. Here's the other thing you talked about, classic example where five year old, six year old, Timmy comes into the kitchen.

Okay, it's 5: 25:17

15pm mom's in the kitchen busy making dinner. She just got home. She's trying to get dinner for the family, and so, okay, he comes in and he says to Mom, Mom, I'm hungry. I want a cookie. Okay, what does mom say? How about instead of a cookie? We start with some good growing foods. I'll cut you up some strawberries. Once you eat some good growing foods, then we can have a cookie afterwards. Okay, something to that effect, or, you know, Timmy, I'm making dinner. We're going to eat in about 1520 minutes. You know, if you eat a good dinner, we'll have a cookie for dessert. So, okay, so what does Timmy do or say, Mommy, I promise, if I have my cookie now, I'll still have a good dinner, right? He comes back. Look, you know, I want a cookie now. Sorry. Okay, and now, what does mommy do? I'm really sorry, but I'm making dinner. I'm working hard on dinner, so we're gonna have the cookie after dinner, she already made a very, you know, strong argument before a very positive one, and and and a true one, all right, but, but he asked. He asked again. And what does she do? She restates, okay, all right. And this goes on a couple more times, okay. Now her restatements get shorter and shorter, but she's getting angrier and angrier because she can't finish dinner. Okay, so somewhere around the fourth or fifth request, finally, mom's had it and says, All right, here, take your darn cookie and get out of the kitchen. Okay? And the kid takes his cookie and walks up. Now, remember, as I said at the start of this presentation, the question is, what is the kid learning? Kids Learning that the more they nag their parents and the more they resist their request, they're going to get what they want eventually, which isn't good. Hello. And then, and then the mother thinks, Oh, my God, his mate, his hearing is bad, or He's so stubborn, he takes after his uncle, Willie. You know, it's so important for parents to have boundaries. Someone once explained it to me that we should think of ourselves as a wall that kids want to push on the wall, push on the wall, push on the wall, but we know a wall is very unlikely to move despite being pushed on. And if you, if you teach the kid that you're not going to move, that you hold that boundary, they're going to stop pushing, and they're going to comply. But if you keep them, if you, if you send the message that if they keep pushing, they keep pushing, they keep pushing, and eventually you cave. You're sending them that message that that that's the behavior that they should be doing if they want to get what they want, absolutely. This is called intermittent reinforcement. The best, my favorite example of intermittent reinforcement is like slot machines. You put the money in, you put the money and you put the money in, it doesn't come, but eventually it comes, and you might strike big, exactly. And that's behavioral psychology right there. And they make billions on on that, on that concept. Okay, now in my if I were that mother and that, and that, and Tim, my kid came in, Daddy, I want a cookie. I'll see. You know, no, you know, we're Dinner will be served in about 20 minutes. The cookie could interfere with your dinner. If you eat a nice dinner, we'll be sure to have a cookie. But daddy, and then he's gone. As far as I'm concerned, he's gone. I'm back to cooking. You can whine all you want. I'm not responding. And the hope is that eventually that whining will extinguish, right? That's the hope, exactly I'm done. He's heard my message. I'm not going to repeat myself like an idiot. And then he's noticed now the kids in control, he's got you repeating yourself half a dozen times, and finally gets the darn cookie. Well, hey, if I was a kid, well, you know, that's a lot of power and control, to be honest with you, I was a terrible child because my mother was 20 years old. Didn't know up from down and so forth. And, you know, bright kids learn this manipulation thing very early. I mean, I definitely hear what you're saying, and cognitively, this all makes sense, but it is hard to hear your kids crying. Sometimes it's hard to stick to those boundaries. You ask your kid, can we make a compromise? How about if I give you a date that's sweet and it's healthy. How about if we do something in between? Mean, I do feel like, realistically, sometimes it is hard for parents to hear their kids crying. And I wish I could and apply the concepts of behavioral psychology in all instances, but it's tricky. Okay. I mean, it is. But, you know, every parent learns to decipher the kids cry they you can tell when they're really hurt and so on. And when they're and when they're doing it for effect, yes, that's a good point to bring up, yeah, and and when they're doing it for effect, I want nothing to do with that, because whining and complaining, you know, and fake crying is not one of those you know life skills, you know that that we want to have our kids carry into adulthood? Yes, absolutely, no. That's a great point. I'm always thinking about what are some logical consequences for unwanted behaviors, and sometimes I worry that the natural consequences are doing a disservice to both of us, and I'll give you example. So last night at dinner, for example, after dinner, there are a lot of dishes out, the food was out. And I asked my kids, can you help me put dinner away? And they said, Oh, we'll get to it later. And I'm someone I don't like leaving food out. I like to do it right away. And I said, if you guys don't help me, I'm not going to have time to put you to bed later and tuck you in. And so I put the food away, and they didn't get up and help me. And then when it came time for bedtime and they asked for a tuck in, I didn't have time for it. But then in my heart, I felt bad, because I do enjoy those tuck ins. So you know, sometimes I feel like logical consequences. Can not feel perfect, if that makes sense. Well, remember, also, you're talking about what we refer to as contingencies and and what you just said is, what a lot of parents do is they reverse it. You know, the true contingency is if A, then B. Okay, what you're doing is if, if not a, then not be so you know one option you could have tried, at least, you know, is that is, say you dear, if you don't dear, if you turn off the TV now, I'll have time to read you a story. Or, you know when, you know when, when you help me clear the dishes here, you know they'll get that'll give me enough time to tuck you into bed. So it's if A then B, as opposed to the negative, and that and that, that that could encourage them to do, to do that. And if they do, then you can reinforce, you know, their their compliance. So yeah, stated, you try to state these in the positive direction, not not the negative one, and it'll, you'll probably, you'll probably have more success with that. So just thinking, as we conclude this conversation, if you could think of one key takeaway that you'd like parents to remember about applying behavioral psychology to their parenting approach, what would it be? Well, I think you can tell it, it's catch them when they're good, catch them when they're good, because it's true, it's much more fun to reward kids for doing good things than to get into a battle and be upset with them when they're not doing good things. Well, if you're getting into battles, shame on you, because they're in control, and it's not just a matter of control, but you're teaching them skills that are not going to serve them well as they get older. I think what's so hard about parenting is I can read the books and I can talk rationally with friends, with adults, but sometimes in the moment, it is just so hard. Another last question. This is a real last question. I love the title, who's raising, whom? Who came up with it? How'd you come up with that? Lot of my titles that from my books come from patients, and I had a very frustrated mother who did just say that, who's raised, but she said, who's raising who? And then, I mean, I thought, Oh, that's perfect, by the way, I have two other books that apply to children. Here's this one. Of course this, this is coping with your adolescent. So if you haven't, if you haven't, haven't read this one, you're going to certainly need this one, as I like to say, who's raising? Who open with your adolescent? Yeah. And this one came out during COVID. It's entitled. Love your child more than you hate your ex. Whatever divorced parent needs, needs to know as well, fantastic. The books are available on my website, which is top Phoenix psychologist.com or, of course, you can get it through Amazon as well. Well, I'm very proud of you. I'm very proud of the wonderful work that you've done. You're helping so many families navigate through. What's the most joyous experience in life I find raising children, but also the most difficult. So thank you so much. All of this insight really helps, and I appreciate your time, and thank you for being here, and thank you for having me. I enjoyed myself. Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of your child is normal. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review wherever it is. You listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow. You can also follow me on Instagram at ask Dr Jessica, see you next Monday. You.