Ep 190: Bonding from birth: normalizing early parenting challenges, with neonatologist Dr Joanna Parga-Belinkie MD

Episode 190 with neonatologist, author and podcast host, Dr. Joanna Parga-Belinkie who talks about her new book,  We talk about the challenges of parenting, particularly in the newborn phase. She emphasizes the importance of bonding with babies, the role of community support, and the impact of modern technology on parenting. Dr Joanna offers practical advice for navigating the early days of parenthood. The discussion highlights that while parenting can be overwhelming, focusing on relationships and being present can lead to fulfilling experiences.

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.

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Website: www.askdrjessicamd.com

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The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Hi everybody. Thank you so much for being here and tuning back into your child as normal. I'm your host and pediatrician, Dr Jessica Hochman on today's episode, I'm joined by a neonatologist and author and fellow pediatric podcaster, Dr Joanna pargabellinky, and she's here to talk about her new book, The baby bonding book. She's also the co host of the AAP pediatrics on call podcast. In this episode, we talk about what truly supports a baby's development, and that is strong, nurturing relationships with their caregivers. We talk about how it's normal for bonding to not happen right away, and why fancy baby gear isn't nearly as important as being present. If you're enjoying this podcast, please share it with a friend and leave a five star review. Reviews help others find the show, and it reminds them your child is normal. Dr, Joanna, Parga belenky, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so excited to share with my audience all of the wisdom that you shared in your new book that just came out last month, the baby bonding book. So thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me. So tell everybody about yourself. You're a doctor, you're a podcaster, you're a mother, share a little bit about who you are. I know you and I share a lot of things in common. So I'm a neonatologist or a Baby doctor. I live in Philadelphia. I am a mother as well. I have three children. They're ages seven, five and one, so just coming out of the baby phase myself, but my one year old is totally a full blown toddler right now. So that is great. And I also work a lot with the American Academy of Pediatrics. I'm a spokesperson for them, and I do their weekly podcast called pediatrics on call. So you wear a lot of hats, a lot of hats, which I feel like a lot of pediatrician mothers do, and then within all of that, you still found time to write a book that's been impressive. Thank you. The book was a labor of love, unintended because it's about babies, but it was really a response to when I was at work, I get so many questions about, How do I make sure that my baby's brain is developing. Well, how do I make sure I'm stimulating enough? What are the things that I should be doing? And the easy answer to that question is, have a good relationship with them, safe, stable, nurturing relationships are what build baby's brains. And so I really wanted to get parents back to that, to them realizing that they're enough and for them to really focus on relationship building with their newborn, which can be hard because parenting a newborn is a challenging phase of parenting. So I was really hoping to help parents connect with their babies and find the joy in building that relationship. Do you feel like those questions are happening more and more because of easy access to social media. Or do you think those questions that parents have after having babies is a normal process? It's definitely normal to have questions when you have a baby, babies don't communicate in the same way that we do, and so figuring out how your baby's trying to communicate with you is a part of what makes parenting a newborn challenging, and they need 24/7 care. I mean, being tired is a fixture of parenting a newborn, I think. But on top of that, modern parenting has allowed for us to have information at our fingertips. There's so much knowledge that you can get from being on the internet, and not all of it's good information, and so I do think there's this extra stress on parents today to feel like they have to know everything about the care of their baby, and I think that takes away from the experiential learning that is so much a part of relationship building with a baby. And again, I want parents to get back to the joy that is getting to know someone and not knowing all the answers, which is stressful Yes, but also can be exciting. And I think part of the reason why the questions feel more and more is because there's less of the village, quote, unquote, to rely on. And I think because the social media world makes everything look so perfect, that makes things harder for moms, because we all know that nothing's perfect. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, I'm actually really happy you brought up the village, the idea of community, because a lot of times when parents are like, Okay, what do I need for my baby? You need to sit down and think about who are the people that support you, who are the people that are going to step up parenting a newborn. It can't be an individual pursuit. It's something that you need community for. It's something that you need other people for. So who are the other people? The grandparents, the best friends, the neighbors, the pediatrician, but you need other people. And it can't just be your phone, because you need physical support for your baby's brain growth and development and for you to take a time out too, especially if you're the mom or the primary parent for that infant, right? And so that concept of a village and a community is just so important. I feel maybe I'm not entirely correct on this, but I feel like more and more families don't have that village. I think it's just hard. Maybe because of jobs, you live far from your family, maybe your spouse is from a different state than. You. And a lot of people are away from their biologic village, which I think is okay, I think you can substitute that with other relationships, but I just feel like today it's harder and harder to make that happen. I think that contributes a lot to the stress of a new parent. And the newborn period itself is a kind of isolating period, right? And parents do you rightly worry about things like infection in those first few months. And so this is an isolating time in general. And I agree we're in this virtual world now where you might not even have a job, where you need to go into the office. And so I think there has to be an intentional effort to seek out community. But remember, what the newborn needs for their brain growth and development is a safe, stable, nurturing relationship. They need an attentive, loving caregiver, and it can just be one. It can Yes, but for that caregiver, it can't just be you. For myself, if I have a question about how to fix something or how to solve a problem, it's so easy to go onto your phone and say, How do I treat a diaper rash? And maybe there'd be a lot of value in asking for the wisdom from your mother, your grandmother, from somebody else in your family who's been through it, or a friend who's been through it. But I do think there's some trickiness, love or hate it with the digital world and the ease of the digital world well, and it's like, if you YouTube the diaper rash, let's take that as an example. It's not a back and forth you're gonna have with the YouTube video about the diaper rash. And so you could do everything the video says perfectly. And the diaper rashes are so ubiquitous. I mean, they happen, they're gonna happen, that it might not be the thing that helps with your diaper rash. And so having someone to talk to about it, like find a pediatrician you really trust. And again, it's the human connection that builds a baby's brain. So in the first year of life, the baby's brain is growing tremendously. It's creating all of these new neuronal networks. It's probably the biggest time of brain growth in your entire life as a human being. And to make sure that your baby's making all these connections and feeling like they can trust the world around them and that they have someone to learn from, is that relationship with you they're always learning from their loving, trusting caregivers. And so this gets to do how important that your attentiveness and your caring for that baby really is, because then, when they have a problem and they're calling out, they're crying, right? Because that's a big way that babies communicate, and you're responding to it. You're teaching them how they should be interacting with the world, and you're also showing them, hey, there's somebody really cares about me that's trying to comfort me, and that is going to lay the foundation of how their brain responds to the environment in the world. And so many things that you're setting up in that early period of time just by interacting with baby and responding to them. As a pediatrician, I find it incredibly fascinating to look at what newborns are capable of doing, because all of their normal newborn reflexes promote bonding with a caregiver. So for example, they have something called the Palmer reflex. If you push in the center of their hand, they grasp your hand, which How do you not fall in love with your baby if they hold your hand from the get go? I also think it's interesting that if you look at the vision of a baby, they can only see about 12 inches away, which is exactly the distance from your face to how far away they would be if you're holding them in your arms, and even with feeding, if you tickle them on the cheek, they'll immediately respond by wanting to root to feed. And feeding a baby promotes bonding. So it makes sense biologically that the things that they are born innately doing promote bonding with a caregiver. And it's incredible. It's about six weeks that they start making out faces too, and that's when they smile at you, and that's when parents, I think, get more into bonding with baby, because so they're like, Oh, wow. Like, now they really see me, but that brain is laying down its foundations, and they are primed. They are primed for relationships and for building a relationship, because, again, that is supporting their neurodevelopment. And it's true, it's so fascinating to see that the subsequent capabilities that they have as they get older are smiling, making better eye contact. You know, around two months they're cooing, where you look at them and you say something, and then they respond back to you. So I agree, they are really primed and set up to connect with you, which makes it really joyful. I say this because a lot of parents have a hard time in those first few weeks, but very quickly they are giving back to you. They're smiling at you. They're cooing with you. Gets more fun as time goes on, and I it is really hard in those first few weeks, because it's demanding. Not only do they need you for their survival and to feed them and to change them, but they are also needing you to figure out how to communicate with them. I have a lot of parents that struggle with that, because they don't feel like the baby's doing anything. I've heard babies described as things like sacks of potatoes or house plants, but really the things you're doing in that period are things that are. Are shaping how they're going to respond to the world. And one thing you mentioned, I really wanted to highlight for families, because I have a lot of families be like, how do I bond with this baby that doesn't give me much? And the cooing and the cooing back that has a name that's called serve and return. So the baby is serving up, I'm going to vocalize, and then the parent vocalizes back. You're starting a conversation with them, and they maybe have an idea of what they're trying to communicate, but you don't, but you're responding to them, and it gets to the point where you don't have to have all the answers, like if you have a crying baby, which is a stressful thing, especially I felt like, as the birth parent, when my baby cried, it just got my hormones flaring and I was upset, and sometimes I wouldn't be able to stop them from crying. I had a colicky baby, my first baby, and so sometimes I just would not be able to figure out why they were crying. But the act of trying, and you don't have to get it right, but the act of trying is so important for making that baby feel secure and for opening up that baby to interacting with the world, and they are watching us, and they are appreciating the things that we're doing, even though they can't say it, because it's so important for them to have that connection with us. Yeah, I think we have to believe it, because you're right. We don't feel a lot in return. Yet, they're not talking to us. They're not telling us that they appreciate us, that they love us. So you have to believe that it matters as much as it does, because it does matter. Yeah, and it's incredible when you allow yourself to take a step back from our busy world and actively listen to baby what you start to learn about them. And relationships take time to build. So again, if you don't feel that relationship day one hour zero, that's okay, because you're building a relationship over time, and the newborn period is fleeting. Childhood is also fleeting, and then you have this adult. So I always tell parents too, yes, this is really hard. Make it feel really intense, but take a step back and think of this adult that you're going to have relationship and you want to raise, and sometimes that helps to be more reflective about the future when the now is so hard. Yeah, I'm reflecting back when I had my first born, like your first child, she was really colicky. She cried all the time. There was very little that I could do, honestly, besides feed her where she wouldn't be crying. And it was very stressful. And I remember feeling like I really wanted to bond with her, and I felt bad that it wasn't as innate, it wasn't as easy as I wanted to be. So do you have any advice for moms in a similar situation where they have a newborn, they have a desire to bond, but it's not coming easy. What would your advice be to that mom? Because I know this happens more than people realize, yeah, because love at first sight is like something that's in the movies. It's not real life. In real life, relationships are messy. They're complicated, I would say, reflect on some of the adult relationships you have in your life, and very often, there's ups and downs to every relationship. And love is not this steady thing. Love grows and expands and changes and evolves as you do. And I think it's hard, because there's this idea that you're going to immediately bond with your child, and maybe it's the case sometimes for some parents, but I think for a lot of people, that bonding period does take a while, also right after birth, it's a very emotional time. You know, I work in a job where I see deliveries not go the way that people had really hoped and planned for those deliveries to go, and so that makes for a much rougher start in starting a relationship with somebody when you're meeting them and and we have to talk about how there is postpartum depression and anxiety. There's sort of twins of each other. The postpartum blues is really common up to 80% of birth parents feel very emotional around the time of delivery, and sometimes when I'm caring for families, the mothers will just cry for little things. And so we have to be aware that our emotions are changing, our hormones are changing, and our mental health is different around the time that we have a baby, and all of these things can influence how you bond with that baby. So I think it's just really important again to remember that this is a lifelong relationship that you're building, and if it's not love at first sight, that is okay. Also thinking for myself, I felt lonely. There were times when I'd be home with the baby and I dreamt of catching up on Netflix and having it really feel fun to just be at home with a newborn, but honestly, it was anything but fun. I can say this because now she's 14, and she's wonderful, but at the time, it was very stressful because she was crying all the time, and in those first couple of months, it was hard to really feel bonded in the way that I wanted. So when I look back, I think what really helped me, just this is just for anyone listening who might be in the same situation. What really helped me, because I am not introverted. I get a lot of joy from being around other people. I started to ask people for help, and also when people offered to help, I tried to say yes, because I think. Think for a lot of people, the instinct is to not take the help. But I would encourage people, if you're struggling, if you're feeling lonely, if you're feeling isolated, just try it. Just see what happens. Just take the help from the in laws, from the cousins, from the friends, because it helps them also bond with your baby, which is helpful for everybody. And help takes different forms. You were mentioning having a meal prepared. They could be coming over too, not to hold the baby, but to help you run a load of laundry or take your package to the post office, or to give you 30 minutes to take a shower, where you know someone's watching the baby, and it doesn't have to be you. So the help can look a variety of different ways. And you brought up the amazing point that you might have all these goals for your maternity leave, but that baby needs you, they're going to demand much of your time, and so not having those goals is also helpful. Because I remember with my first I was like, I'm going to do all these things. I'm going to catch up on the all these shows like you were talking about. I'm going to read all these books. No, none of that. I was surviving day to day and taking care of my baby. And this gets back to what I was saying earlier. The time and energy you're putting into caring for that child is growing their brain, and that's all you need to do. And I think being able to disconnect in that way is really tough, especially today, where we have so many distractions, but knowing that like the little things that you're doing for baby every day are really making a difference is so important. And if you're someone that has a colicky baby, make sure someone else is watching them for a while, because it's really hard to listen to a baby cry for hours on end. I've been there too. What helped me the most was when my mother in law, my mom, would come and take the baby away from me for a little bit of time, even a half an hour, would make a huge difference. I totally agree, and there's a saying that I like that disappointment comes when expectations are not met. So I think if you can keep your expectations a little bit on the lower side, especially in those first few months, just take it day by day. Know it's going to be hard, know that you're going to feel sleep deprived. Know that it takes some time to feel mentally the way you felt before, and just give yourself grace. And I think that also can make a difference. It's somber, but there are such moments of joy peppered in there too, in all that hardship. Because when you do hard things and you dedicate yourself to them, there's joy in that too. There's joy in watching the baby grow, in watching in that first smile, in seeing how other people interact with your baby and being able to share that. And even something as simple as I had two girls, and like putting a particular bow on them for an hour brought me joy. And so capture that joy, so that when you're in those moments that are really hard, you can also reflect back on those little things. I do agree, enjoying the good moments is so important, it makes all the difference being present as best you can. But I guess I'm more reflecting on the harder times, just for people to know that if they are going through it, it's normal, and it will get better, yeah, such a short time, really, but it's so intense. It's so intense when you're in it, so it doesn't feel that way when you're living it. I think it's a great reminder for people that bonding can take time. Connection doesn't always happen immediately, but it will happen. The bonding will happen. So I really like there's a part in your book where you talk about today's focus on baby gear, all the elaborate registries. What do you think we're getting wrong as a culture when it comes to newborn care? Well, I think that the fact that there are so many things you could buy for a baby just speaks to how challenging this part of parenting can be because people are trying to find solutions for it, and so they're trying to come up with these things that'll make it easier. It's not easy. It's just not an easy part of parenting. And truthfully, to care for a newborn baby, you only need a handful of things, and otherwise the baby really just needs a loving, attentive caregiver. They need someone to respond to them, something to be there for them. And so instead of focusing all this time on making this list of things that you could buy, make a list of people that are going to be there for you, that you know you can call upon to help, and that want to come help and be a part of you and your baby's life, and also make that space for recognizing that you are the most important thing for your baby. I couldn't agree more that I think today's culture has made everything feel way too fancy. There's way too much stuff to think about, and it's easy to fall for that trap, because if you go to a baby store and you see all this gear and diaper warmers and different kinds of bottle warmers and different options for blankets and binkies, and literally, you could mortgage your home and all the money that you could spend on baby gear. And I always think about this time when I was getting ready for my first born. I had a conversation with my friend's older brother, who was about to have his fourth child, and I was telling him about my registry, and I was asking for his advice on what I would need to get. And he said to me, honestly. All you need is a blanket and a diaper, everything else you'll figure out later. And I remember thinking he was so calm and so confident saying, that's all I would need. And I really reflected on that, because after I had my child, he was right. The rest of the things that we needed. As time went on, we figured out you can feel like you need a lot more, when the truth is, you really don't need hardly any of it. Yeah, and it can over complicate that trying to start a relationship, right? Because you're like, Oh, well, if I don't have this thing, I'm going to be in trouble like you're not. You could do it. The ultimate goal is to have, as you said, a safe, stable relationship and watch them grow up and be close and connected. You don't need the Diaper Genie to make that happen. Yeah, so I had my son, and eventually you'll get peed on by a baby boy if you have a baby boy in your house and you're caring for them, because that's just what happens. And I remember someone was like, Oh, do you have the PPTP? And I was like, what's that? And it's like, this contraption you could buy that you could throw over the penis, and it'll catch the urine when you're changing. And I was like, Why? Why do I need that? Like, I could just put a wipe on it, or I could just try to be really quick, like, aware that it could happen, you know, because I think even if you had it PPTP, you're still probably going to get peed on. And in a way, making the mistakes is part of the process, right? And helpful, because it helps you learn. You know that that dad who was giving you wisdom about the fourth baby, he wasn't like that, I'm sure with the first you know. So you really gain knowledge as you care for more and more babies. Yeah, you grow into it. I definitely can say that the size of my diaper bag from my first child to my third it. It was unrecognizable. The first diaper bag was loaded with everything you could think of, multiple outfit changes, blankets, teething toys and whatnot. And I don't even know if we had a diaper bag for my third child in all Can I tell you? Because my third is still a year old, right? And so the first we always had the diaper I was, like, decked out. We had everything we needed in it, because, for whatever reason, I was like, Oh, if they have a dirty onesie, it's at the end of the world. But like, with my third we're often in the car, we're like, a half hour away from the house, and my husband will turn to me and be like, Did you pack the diaper bag? And I was like, what diaper bag? There's no diaper bag. Like, it's just funny that, like, we're often just forgetting it. Now, one time, I remember my husband walked out the door with just a diaper in his back pocket and our child, and I said, that's all you need. And he goes, we'll figure the rest out. And he wasn't wrong. He wasn't wrong. He took a gamble. So okay, so bringing back to I think what's so important here, and I think the crux of your message is how bonding with our child really is what matters at the end of the day, I'm thinking specifically for the parents that might find parenting a little boring in those early months. Do you have any advice to help foster that connection so that it really feels good for the parent? I think, I think really allowing yourself to focus on what you want this relationship to look like and know that it's a long term endeavor and not something that you need to figure out the minute the baby is born. So give yourself time and space and recognize that while there is a joy in raising a newborn, there it is a challenging period of parenting, and it is okay to take a break. You also talked about in your book how routine can matter, how simple daily routines, like feeding, responding to cries, the most basic needs of the baby, if you respond to those that can make a difference in helping attachment. Can you explain that a little bit more and why that's the case? Yeah, one of my favorite things to do with my babies was just the tasks I needed to do around the house, and I would add flavor to it by narrating it to the baby. So as I was folding the laundry, I would kind of play with the sheets, with them, but also talk to them about how I was doing the laundry, what the laundry was, you know, things that are boring to me, and I think that's so important for caregivers to know, the things that are really stimulating and brain boosting for your baby to sometimes be really boring for you, and that's okay, because then I could incorporate the baby in the daily tasks I needed to do around the house. I was a big baby wearer, so I would talk to baby a lot while they were sleeping on me, just moving around the house, like I mentioned, the laundry, like loading and unloading the dishwasher too. We talked about serving return too, how you could just respond to the things the baby's trying to tell you, and that's actually building their language and also their connection with you as a neonatologist or a baby doctor, that skin to skin, and actually holding particularly really fresh newborn babies helps them kind of regulate their own physiology. And that's what like really newborn babies want, is that closeness with their caregiver, so the act of even just holding them is enough to be helping that brain circuitry start to grow and fire. And I think it's also important to realize that play is something that is really a. Essential in framing how the baby develops and really play can look like a lot of different things. Sometimes just talking and interacting is play. But also, you don't need fancy toys or fancy mats or play mats for this. You just need to be allowing yourself the time to have joy with baby and show them different things and talk to them and be on the floor with them and making eye contact with them. For baby, that is very stimulating, and that is play. So again, find the joy in it where you can, because it is such a demanding phase. Now I have to ask you, you're a neonatologist, beyond the three years of pediatric residency, you also did an additional few years to learn more about babies, correct? That's correct. Yeah. Okay, so I just want to ask you these questions, because a lot of parents are worried that something is wrong with their baby. Can you just tell everybody what are the real red flags? What are the real worries that parents should be aware of when they have a newborn? So your newborn should be interested in eating, right? They should be engaged in wanting to feed eight to 12 times in a day, which is roughly every three hours. But some babies will wake up in an hour and a half and be hungry, or they'll do wake up in three and a half hours. So no schedule there, but thinking about the amount of feeds, they should be pooping and peeing, so watching their diapers is sometimes a really important thing for caring for baby. A lot of parents intuitively know you support the baby's head, right? Because they don't have, like, very strong necks, and so they can't hold their heads up, but in thinking about that too, they have really tiny airways, so safe sleep, to me also making sure there's nothing that can block their nose or their mouth. And they primarily like to breathe out of their noses, so you want to make sure that in the times when it's 3am and you're really tired, that you have your baby in a safe spot, so you don't need to be worried about how their airway is or how they're breathing at night. And also, you're going to have that safe sleep environment for them. And then, you know, anytime a baby has a fever is a medical emergency. It's always useful to have a thermometer that can take baby's temperature and make sure that you get baby help if they have a fever, because all your pediatrician is going to recommend going to the emergency room for that. And I really have a very close relationship with my pediatrician. I think having a close relationship with your pediatrician is something that's going to really help allay some of those worries for you. So make sure it's someone that you can ask questions of, that you can have conversation with, and that that is going to be open to really talking with you about your parenting, and making sure that they're giving you those pearls for what they're worried about, too, when things happen and change with baby. And you know, there's a lot of focus too, on, you know, baby's weight and length, and I think those things are important, how they're growing, and the growth curves. But growth curves are not individualized. They're population based. And so essentially, that what the data point that you're born at tells you more about how the placenta grew you than it does about the growth potential of the baby. And then afterwards, your baby needs to find their curve, and they're going to be babies at the bottom of the curve, and they're going to be babies at the top of the curve, and you don't know where your baby's going to be. So that's why I think it's important to have those regular pediatrician visits. You know, really, we recommend nine in that first year of life, which is a lot when you think about it, right? But up to nine visits, maybe more to help watch how the baby's growing and developing with you, but growth and those parameters are just one part of overall health for your baby. And I'm also just curious, as a neonatologist, do you find that there are common concerns that parents bring up with you that you wish they knew not to worry about? I think again, this gets back to they're really just wanting their baby to have the best start, right? Like they want their baby to be able to have the best stimulation to let their brain grow. And I think we lose the focus on how important relationships are. So this question, for me, it really gets back to understanding that you are enough and that it's the relationships that you have with your baby that are going to be the ones that are most stimulating for them as they get bigger. Yes, and I do think the power of the mind, I believe, is so important. So for example, my second child, I was nervous because my first child, by the time she was two, I just loved her so much, and I could not picture loving another baby as much as I loved my first born. So I was feeling guilty already. How could it be possible that I could love him in the same plane as my first kid? And I remember talking to my dad, and I expressed what I was worried about, and he said to me, Look, I have three kids. I have you and your two sisters. Can you tell that I love any of you any differently? And I said, No, I can't. He goes, it'll just happen. And I felt so reassured by talking to him, expressing my worries and having him just give me this common sense answer, I think, made a big difference. And from that point forward, I just believed. I'm going to love him as much as I love my daughter. And of course, it became true. So I think a lot of the lessons that I've learned parenting that have made me feel better have been reaching out to others who are more experienced, and then having the mindset that my worries aren't going to happen, that things are going to work out in the best positive way. And I do think if you can convince yourself to have that positive mindset, it will make a difference. I think you're totally right. I remember I had the same guilt when I had a lot of infertility issues getting pregnant the first time. So I just kind of assumed I would have sort of the same issues when I was trying to get pregnant with my second and then that pregnancy happened right away, and I was overwhelmed with guilt that, oh, my other baby is not even two, and here I am pregnant again. How is this going to affect our connection? But it's just again. It's those relationships. And I have to say too, it's really incredible to watch the sibling relationship develop between my two oldest and now my youngest in the mix. I mean, love is so powerful. Your heart can really grow in size, but the relationships are all different, which is really cool. It's so true. I think if, if anyone's feeling that guilt, if you again, take take a step back and you think about how many people that you know are really close with their siblings, or how many parents feel joy when they watch their siblings play, it is true that it really is the best, as they say, the best things money can't buy. I think that there's nothing truer than looking at a really special relationship, like between parents and their kids or between siblings. So I think what you're talking about is really important. It's a really good reminder for people to take to think about the big picture, about what really matters. And thank you for putting it into words. Well, thank you so much for having me on today. It's been so nice to chat with you. Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of your child is normal. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review, wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow. You can also follow me on Instagram at ask Dr Jessica. See you next Monday. You.