Ep 193: How to Help Your Child Build Strong Friendships: Tips for Parents with Nina Badzin

Friendship is one of the most important parts of childhood—and yet, many kids struggle to make and keep friends, especially in today's tech-heavy world. In this episode, I talk with friendship expert and podcast host Nina Badzin about how parents can support their children's social lives. We cover how to help kids initiate plans, what makes a healthy friendship, why being the “hosting house” matters, and how to guide your child through conflict and growing apart from friends. This episode is full of practical tips for helping your child feel more confident, connected, and socially capable.

To learn more from Nina, please follow her on instagram @dearninafriendship, subscribe to her podcast: Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship and subscribe to her substack to learn her insights about friendships. 

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.

For more content from Dr Jessica Hochman:
Instagram: @AskDrJessica
YouTube channel: Ask Dr Jessica
Website: www.askdrjessicamd.com

-For a plant-based, USDA Organic certified vitamin supplement, check out : Llama Naturals Vitamin and use discount code: DRJESSICA20

-To test your child's microbiome and get recommendations, check out:
Tiny Health using code: DRJESSICA

Do you have a future topic you'd like Dr Jessica Hochman to discuss? Email Dr Jessica Hochman askdrjessicamd@gmail.com.

The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Your social life is in your hands. If you want plans, you make plans. You do not wait for someone to invite you. Whether you are 10 years old or 85 years old. Hi everyone, and welcome back to your child is normal. I'm your host, Dr, Jessica Hochman, and today we're talking about a topic that's near and dear to my heart, something that I believe is essential for healthy childhood, and honestly, for adults too, and that is the topic of friendships. Friendship is a skill kids need to learn and practice just like anything else, and as parents, we actually play a big role in helping them build those social muscles. Joining me today is friendship expert Nina badson. Nina is the host of the dear Nina podcast, which I highly recommend. She's also a writer who spent over a decade offering thoughtful, practical advice about friendships, so whether your child is struggling to make friends or just needs a little encouragement to put themselves out there, this episode is full of insight and takeaways that you can use right away, and a big thank you to Nina for being here. I definitely learned a lot from this conversation. And also, before we get started, if you're enjoying your child as normal, please consider leaving a five star review wherever it is. You listen to podcasts, it really helps the show grow and reach more parents like you. Now, let's get into it. Nina basin, I think the subject of friendship is so important, so thank you for being here. I agree my whole, every moment of my work life is dedicated to this topic. So I'm so glad to be here to talk to you so you have a podcast that's totally dedicated to the subject of friendship, correct? And it came from advice column that I had for about seven years about friendship, and then I realized the audience is really listening. Now they're not reading as much, and that was four years ago. So in 2021 I started dear Nina conversations about friendship. And the early days, I really based it on the letters I was still getting, and I still get letters, and I use those letters on my sub stack newsletter that's called conversations about friendship. But the podcast has taken on a completely different life. Although the themes are the same, it's really focused on adult friendship. Sometimes I cover teens, but the truth is, all friendship skills are ageless and timeless. And actually, I used to have a parenting column, and the friendship column came from the parenting column. I wrote a parenting column for brain child magazine for a few years, and around that time, I was hired to write a friendship advice column, not because I'm a therapist, because I'm not, but because I'd written a lot about friendship, and I have a very practical take. It's a topic I've always cared about, and then that turned into its own body of work. So I've been writing about friendship for a decade. You've been talking about this subject for a long time. Is there something that you can pinpoint to why this has become your passion? Yes, I would say three things. I'll try to make it brief. Number one, and it's pertinent to this episode, friendship was so important to my parents. I mean, they talked about it all the time, they modeled it all the time. They always spent time with friends and not like in a party. Ish kind of way. My parents were actually more traditional, but they always were involved in their own things, book clubs and different things. My dad would shoot hoops with his buddies in our backyard. He played tennis. He played bridge. Both my parents played bridge in a couples group. Friendship was a big deal, and they talked about it and they modeled it, and they left us with babysitters a lot. And I don't mean that in a resentful kind of way. I've really modeled our adult life after that, although we're quite a bit more religiously observant than my parents were. So I mean, we're home on Friday nights no matter what. We have friends over for Shabbat dinner, but we go out on Saturday nights like I always had a babysitter when the kids were little, and we went out every Saturday night, and we mostly still do. So that's one thing. Is my parents modeling it. After high school, I was ghosted by my very best friend, and that really had an effect on me big time. And it comes up here and there. And I'm 48 years old. Just to give context, I was 18 at the time, and that was before ghosting was a term. I didn't call it that at the time, I called it being dumped. You know, in 1995 we called it being dumped. But now people call it being ghosted. Same idea. And then I would say the next thing was moving to Minneapolis as an adult, knowing zero people. I had never really had trouble making friends before, just because I never moved as a kid, my mom just sold the house that I grew up in, that my father grew up in. I mean, we were in Chicago forever, and then I didn't really have a hard time in college or camp. I mean, I had times like we all do, where I was left out, where people accused me of leaving them out, the regular stuff, but not real trouble. Moving to Minneapolis, I really had a hard time. And so then going through that piece of it is part of what I would write about sometimes in those early writing years. And then I ended up having other advice columns on different topics that advice voice just really fit with me. And friendship is it's always been there. It's been there forever. I love this topic tremendously. I feel like it can relate to you on many levels. When you're talking about your parents, having friendships is such a big part of their life. And I wonder if a lot of people listening can relate to that as well. Maybe this shift away from having friends so involved in your life has to do with the new world and in terms of social media and everything is much more. Yeah, on the screens rather than getting together in person. Yes, I agree, the screens, the social media, and I agree that's a huge difference that parents nowadays had from our parents. I think there's another thing. And I know you've covered this on your show too, a lot of people are very involved with their kids sports, and that has replaced the social time. So of course, you can't make a plan on a Saturday night because your kid might have a tournament, and you're not going to get the tournament schedule. Tournament schedule until a day before. So how can you make a plan? I think this is a mistake, but I also don't know exactly the way out of it for people, so I would just be aware of it. If your entire social life has been based on your kids sports, I promise you that you are going to be writing me an anonymous letter in 10 years. I get a lot of letters from people who are newly empty nesters, and they realize, oh, wait, I don't have really any close friends. It's true. I think there's also something about that period of life where you're raising your children. I think it's particularly difficult because you're so busy and consumed with your kids, whether it's sports, whether it's music, you know, whatever extracurricular that they're involved in. What I try to do with my friends is just to have some touch points. You know, I'll send them a text if I'm thinking about them, or we'll try to schedule something in the future. And you can probably comment on this more. It's worth keeping up with your friendships. At some point we become empty nesters, and you want to make sure that those relationships have been somewhat nurtured, because I do want to make sure that we all have friends when that time comes? Yeah, that's a big part of my audience, I think, are people who find themselves in a time of life where they want to be working on their friendships again. So it's okay if you're starting over at that time, but it would be nice if you've kept that social muscle exercised. You know that you didn't just become friends with people who happen to be in your space, but that you actively seek people out that share your interests as an adult. And again, this is good modeling for the kids. Absolutely. I love your podcast topic because I think a lot of people didn't have that modeled for them, or they're not quite sure how to not only make friends, but then keep friends. What's some basic advice that parents can give their kids if they're having trouble making friendships? When you're talking to your kids about friends, the best skill you could give them is to focus on what they can do, not what others have done for them. It is a life skill you are giving them. So when my kids were a little younger, I used to ask them, Who did you talk to today? Not who talked to you, not who invited you. Who did you invite to hang out with at recess? Like to really constantly remind them through life, and this is important for adults to remember. I'm telling you that it isn't always about what others did for you. Your social life is in your hands. If you want plans, you make plans, you do not wait for someone to invite you. Whether you are 10 years old, or 85 years old. If you want to be busy, then you have to make yourself busy. If you wait for people to invite you, you could be waiting a long time. Or the people that you're most interested in might not be the people that invite you to do things. Who are you interested in? Who is somebody that seems appealing to you, and why? How do you feel around them? I tell my kids all the time, and I tell my listeners, you should be friends with people you like who you feel good around most of the time, but not who make you feel good, because most people, that's putting too much power in their hands. So people who you like is chemistry. There is a thing called chemistry, and sometimes we can't explain it. You can tell when you're clicking with somebody you know. You can tell right away if there's something about them that draws you to one another. And then there's also this practical piece of you can have great chemistry with somebody, and maybe you met them at a baseball tournament. I'm sorry to keep thinking about sports, but I'm just thinking of kids and where kids hang out. But if that kid lives 45 minutes from you, and you're the parent, and you liked that kid as a parent, I would probably not invest in that friendship. So that sounds kind of harsh, but you can have the best chemistry in the world if it's not convenient, and that's true for adults too. You can have just okay, chemistry. Maybe it wasn't love at first sight friendship, but they live around the corner. You invest in that friendship as a kid or as the parent for the kid, that's a friendship worth investing in, because proximity actually is a huge factor in friendship of all ages, proximity. I mean, I really, really urge people to focus on hyper local friendship, not just the 20 minute away friend. I'm talking walking distance, biking distance. That is how your kid will stay busy and social. That's how you will stay busy and social, and also you as a parent, can get out of it a little bit when I think about my own childhood, or my husband's childhood, our best friends were people that lived around the corner from us, next door to us. So I agree with you, living close to somebody really does matter. Yeah. And then what I was saying earlier about being the initiator, if you could teach one skill to your kids, about making friends, it is like I said, to make plans and to not be scared, to be the first to initiate and to be the first to initiate again and again, and not to keep score. These are just basic skills, but they need to be taught. I think our default as humans is to want people to do for us. I mean, of course, it's so much easier if someone reaches out to you. I mean, it's a wonderful and there are some people. People that are just magnets, and everyone reaches out to them, and they're lucky. Those people are exceptions. Most people have to do the work. And if you can teach your kid that there's nothing wrong with them, that they always have to be the one to reach out, it really is. So with my kids, sometimes they're scared to go up to somebody and start talking to them. So at home, will practice. We talk about giving a compliment or saying something nice about someone that comes into your head. So I'll say whatever it is that you like about that person, say it out loud to them and see how they respond. And so my nine year old, she's been working on this. She came home the other day and she said, Mommy, it worked. I told someone that I liked their T shirt. Next thing you know, they're off playing handball together. That is a piece of advice that I've given to my kids. That's great advice for adults, too, by the way. Adults, too, by the way, like you start the conversation, you offer something and a compliment. So a wonderful way to do that, and it's a generous thing to do. Who wouldn't feel good about that? We also role played a lot with the kids growing up. I don't think I said this on the episode. You just know this, but I think it's good for listeners to know that my kids are older than yours, so I have one that's almost 21, it's 18, one that's 16, and one that is 13. So I've been through a lot of the things you've been through, and I have the college thing going on now. I have the one going to college. You know, eventually my kids take gap years, so that's a whole thing. I've been through a lot of things where they have to make friends and be in new situations. And we have done the role playing. They roll their eyes now at it, because I'll even do it sometimes though they're like, Mom, stop. The other big piece of this that I also talk about is asking people questions about themselves, because I find that people really like talking about themselves. And you know, you start to learn as you get older, that when you talk about yourself, it actually it feels boring. Already know about myself. So I tell my kids, the more you ask other people about themselves, that's how you learn, and it feels good to the other person that someone's showing an interest in them. So this is a skill that I've tried to impress upon my younger kids, that trying to learn about other people, that that really makes a difference, because I think for littler kids in particular, they're more egocentric, which is natural, but that's a skill to learn to show interest in others. There's a new book out called talk by a professor at Harvard. She's from the business school. I think her name's Allison Brooks, and she talks about how one of the many lessons is about asking questions, and how most people worry they're asking too many questions. And the truth is, it's very hard. I mean, they've done research on this, it's very hard to actually reach the threshold where you've asked too many questions that actually most people ask less questions than they think they are asking. So don't be afraid to ask questions. I do feel like we live in an age now where people are shy or maybe they don't want to seem like they're prying. I think people are so afraid to offend people these days, but I do think that if you take an interest in somebody, I think that's a real positive thing to do, yeah, and it's very noticeable when someone doesn't. So it's very easy to notice when you're out in a social setting and you're asking all the questions, and then you leave that thing and you're like, I don't think they asked me one thing. It's noticeable. And so you want to be asking questions, yes. So these are good tips. So just to kind of summarize so far. So we've talked about making sure that you're the initiator. Don't be afraid to go up to others and initiate the friendship. Don't be afraid to compliment them. Don't be afraid to ask them questions even more than you think. Just keep on asking and show an interest. I know this is a topic we could keep talking about all day, but any other big points that you think we could offer as tips to parents to talk to their kids about scheduling is the worst part of friend making for kids and adults, being in an activity is a positive thing. The reason activities can be a positive thing is it takes the scheduling out of it. Now, your kid's going to see somebody and have a social experience, even if it's while they're doing an activity, because it's already on the schedule. You know, they have a tennis drill every Tuesdays, and those might not be their best friends, but it is exercising a social muscle too, because usually kids activities are a little more fun. There's some socialization in it, but things that are more group. So it's not the worst thing to have some kind of extracurricular activity for your kid, because it's something that they don't have to worry about week to week. It is on the schedule, it's happening. So you're saying that scheduling is a positive for children. Well, I'm saying that scheduling social stuff is the hardest part about keeping and making friends. Well, making first and then keeping friends is because, first of all, you have to rely on your parents a lot of times to make plans for you when you're younger, and it's very hard for adults to even make their own plans, and adults just have a hard time with this. And so when something's just on the calendar, outside of you having to make the schedule, it's already on there. It's Mondays, is tennis group or whatever it is, you at least know that your kids having that social time that day, because it's out of your hands at this point, you have decided it's on the family calendar and it's happening. These are great tips in terms of initiating friendships when it comes to maintaining friendships. Do you have any general advice in that capacity? Yeah, and I'm trying to decide if we're talking about the kids doing things themselves, or how parents can help the kids. And I think since parents are the listeners, it's really how parents can help the kids, what I'm. And I talk to parents, their kids just aren't as social anymore. They're at home more. I don't know if it's the pandemic, I don't know if it's the phones or all of the above, but a lot of kids are having struggles. They don't have that many friends, and I think it's a lonely world out there. And so I think what I'm trying to figure out is, how can we parents help our kids push beyond that. Okay, I have a huge tip. I divide the weekend up into four social opportunities for kids. Okay, so here's how I see it and how it worked. At my house, you could invite somebody over for our Friday Night Dinner. We always have Friday Night Dinner, and the kids can have anyone they want, and they just have to let me know by Thursday. So I make enough food, but that's one opportunity. Saturday day is another opportunity for us. Religiously, they would have to have someone over, like we're not taking them anywhere, but they can have anyone over, any amount of kids over, that's another opportunity. Saturday night is like a separate unit of time, and then Sunday day, some of my kids are more social than others, and because I think having friends is so important, I really push this a lot that you had to just fill one of those boxes, not all four, though, that would be a lot of pressure to tell a kid that they need to be busy all weekend, Friday nights, Saturday mornings, Saturday nights, Sundays. One of those four boxes you had to check one, basically. And so I would get off your case if you told me as a teenager in my house, if you're 14 years old and you say, I need a ride to the mall Sunday because I'm meeting my friend. Great. I will get off your case the rest of the weekend. Or what are you doing Saturday night? Because I actually think that can make kids feel really bad if you're always like I'm thinking slightly older kids now, you know, maybe 12, 1314, if you're always saying to your kid, do you have plans? Or have you reached out to someone? I don't pester them as long as they've told me I have this one plan, but if it's Thursday or Friday and I haven't heard about one plan for the weekend, Hey, did you consider reaching out to so and so we're available Sunday to drive you somewhere if you want. I think parents have to help with this and remind and encourage in a positive way. Encourage your kids to reach out and make plans. That's why I talked about this at the beginning, and it is really really important. It's low hanging fruit to do the online stuff, and I think it's a little easier for parents too. They don't have to drive their kids anywhere. They don't have to worry about they're feeding everybody. But you gotta step it up a little bit. You gotta help your kids, and you have to be willing to host. If you are willing to host and be the hosting house, your kids will be busy, and you have to have stuff to do at your house that is not just video games. I just had a wonderful guest on my podcast named Catherine matrinko, and she wrote a book called childhood unplugged. Her kids are around your kids age, and she talks a lot about being the hosting house and having tons of stuff for the kids to do outside the house her kids, she has a couple boys that may be around 1516, she has lifting equipment in the garage. She has stuff that the kids want to do. She has some sort of rope thing in the backyard, some ropes. Course, they didn't do it all at once. You know, over the years, you kind of collect things and develop things, because it isn't really fair to the kids to say, Get off your screen if there's nothing for them to do. I think this is such an important point, because you're right. I think for parents, it's really important to recognize that we do have to step it up a little bit. And I'm guilty of this myself. I'm a working mom. I come home, I want to hang out with my kids and I'm tired, but we have to, I think, for our children, for their development, for their emotional well being, it's so important to make that effort to help them be with their friends. Because my kids, for example, they're not of driving age, so I have to be there to assist. So you're totally right, and I appreciate you bringing up that perspective. And I would push it on your kids as early as you can. Like, meaning you're going to have to deal with other parents yourself when they're younger. There's no way around it if you are going to delay your kids getting a phone, which I highly recommend. I assume you do too as a pediatrician, like as late as possible. But that does mean you're gonna have to be involved a little bit, but once they are able to communicate on their own, to encourage the kids to do it, oh, reach out. You have to say the words, reach out to so and so you had so much fun last time. Why don't you see if he wants to come over and even with my youngest, because now I'm much more experienced, I will suggest to him, let's see if you can go over there. I know that seems like kind of rude, but I look, if we've had a kid a bunch of times, instead of beating around the bush or hoping that they'll invite back, just say, Oh, hey, can we come to your house this time? And he'll do it, he'll text a friend and say, Can I come over? And that's a good lesson in friendship, too. I think reciprocity means a lot, and it holds a lot of weight, because nobody wants to feel like they're doing all the work and doing all the inviting. It feels good to be asked back. Yes. Oh, by the way, I'm glad you brought up reciprocity. It's one of my biggest topics that comes up for adults. Reciprocity is important, I said earlier, to not keep score, to teach kids that reciprocity is not one for one, it's not I came to your house now I go to your house and then I go to my house again, and then your house again. Some people just don't like to have friends over, like I said, maybe they're more introverted, and they just don't have the need as much to have a friend. So unless someone reached out to them, they're probably not going to reach out. But if it's important to you and. Family to have these social ties, you may just have to do a little more. So it might be three to one. I still consider that reciprocal. They at least did the one for the three, or they answer back quickly, or they're good listeners. And I agree with who are doing this one to one. Are always disappointed in friendship, kids and adults. I completely agree with that, and I relate to that. I think friends are good for different reasons, and I think what's so much healthier is to look to the good that they bring in your life. So maybe they're a friend that has you over a lot for dinner, but maybe they're a friend that's a really good listener. Maybe they're a friend that loves to go out you're going out. Friend to me, friendships about the feeling. Are you bringing joy to each other's life? Are you adding something to each other's life. I hear from so many parents that they give up on the friendship for the kids, because they always say, well, we've had so and so over five times. They've never had my kid over. I think it's a mistake if your kid enjoys that kid, kid doesn't enjoy that kid, okay, we could probably stop inviting that kid over, but if your kid does, you are robbing your kid of a friendship because you as the parent are upset that the other parent doesn't have your social skills, maybe, or has a lot on their plate, has an extra job, has more kids than you have, has a kid who's some kind of travel athlete, and they truly love that you invite their kid over, but they're not home to ever supervise your kid. There's just a lot of unknowns, and we get in the way of our kids friendships by putting our own sort of sensitivity and level of insult that we have felt. No, I think you're right. To me, the bottom line is, is this a healthy friendship for my child? And if the answer is yes, the rest doesn't matter to me. Yes. I like being the house where the kids come over because I like seeing what's happening. I like being part of my kid's life. I'm also happy when my kids go to their friends houses, but I agree with what you're saying earlier about how you want to make your house fun for the kids, beyond just screens. Yeah, so this is something I'm constantly working on. Yes, it really is on the parents. If you don't want your kids making tiktoks, 24/7, when they're hanging with friends, it is not actually fair to say that you're a kid, if you have nothing to do in your house, you gotta have stuff to do or let them bite to the park, if you're never going to let them out of your sight. And then you also are saying to them in the same breath, get off Tiktok. Okay. Well, what else is there to do around here? Do you ever put your phone down? I know I sound very like luxury right now, but again, back to Catherine, the recent guest. She was quoting Cal Newport, who's done a lot of wonderful work on life off of a screen and really managing your screen life. And he had a expression, fix your analog life first. And it's so important that, and this is what we're talking about, if you want anyone to spend any time off of a screen, it's will work better if the things that they have Office screen exist. So that's why they do some extracurricular activities, or adults too. You gotta have things to do, otherwise it's impossible to get off your phone. Your phones become your social life. Well, of course, if you all of a sudden put it down, you're gonna be lonely if you haven't set up a system of life that exists off the phone. Yes, and this is also important role modeling for our own children. What I'm having difficulty with my kids is, yes, I want to be a good role model for them, and also when their friends come over, what's tricky is their friends come over on phones, and so this is something I'm trying to figure out how to navigate, because I don't want to embarrass my kids and tell their friends, hey, do you mind in our home, we try not to look at phones, or, I'm not sure if I should talk to their parents first. I haven't quite found the solution to this problem yet, but I have noticed that the last number of times my kids friends have come over, they've been on their phones, and my kids feel bad when they see their friends on Tiktok or on social media or distracted by their phone, because I think that you see someone else on the screen, then you think, Oh, I must not be that interesting. Or what am I supposed to do right now? Let me pick up a phone as well. Of course, adults do it too. It's completely contagious. It is so that's, I don't know if you had to deal with that with your kids and their friends, but yeah, no, we don't have phones on Friday nights and Saturdays in our house. But what helps with that is that feels like a rule outside of ourselves. So like, sometimes the kids will tell their friends now, because they our kids will be like, oh, you know, we don't have phones on Friday nights. What they mean is, in front of my parents, because I'm, you know, who knows what my kids are doing behind closed doors. They're much older now, but they have gotten the memo. My kids and they, without embarrassment, give it over to their friends, like, oh, there's no phones at the table Friday night. It's like this rule that exists, like on high, even higher than us, that only helps on a Friday or Saturday. But at least you have some boundaries there. Just having 24 hours where kids can learn to be without digital devices, I think is really healthy. Yeah, every house really struggles with this. I will say, just your house, your rules as you think, you cannot really police what happens at other people's houses though, your house, your rules. I have to say one thing I'm really proud of myself for is we just got back from a vacation with my sister's kids and my parents and my daughter, she's 14. She's the oldest of all the cousins. There's nine cousins. And she came on the trip, and she did not bring her phone, because we have a rule that there's no phones on trips. I think it makes a difference, because she's more interested in playing with her cousins, her younger cousins. This is actually really amazing, and you're so right about the cousin thing, like we've seen this too on family trips, the second and older cousin is always older cousin, right? At some point transitions to getting a phone. That cousin's gone. That cousin is like, not one of the kid cousins anymore. It's really sad when she got a phone. That was one of my fears, and I told her, I don't want you to be the teenager off in the corner, gone from the party. So that is a rule that we made in our house. I'm happy that she's sticking to it. So so far. So yeah. So Okay, another question, do you think that the number of kids that are together matters? Meaning, I was always told as a kid, be careful with the number three, because someone's going to be left out. Is that something that parents should think about when we're helping our kids make plans? That's a really good question. I just did an episode on white lotus, and people were so into the friendship triangle in that show. For listeners who haven't seen it. That was one of many big plot points that was in Social Media Lab, these three adult women who were childhood friends, and you're watching their forever dynamic kind of play out. And my thesis there was, three actually is not a problem. No number is a problem. It's the people themselves. Three doesn't have to be a problem. It can be but I actually think three sometimes is better than two, because two really puts a lot of pressure on each person to bring a lot to the table. Sometimes having that third person to bounce things off of lightens the load for everybody socially. But yeah, numbers and friendship and kids really is an issue, only in that kids really crave a group. When they see other kids in a group, the issue really is more like teaching them to be satisfied with a smaller number. That's where the number thing, I think, comes into play with kids, is that it's okay. And not only okay, but research backs up that just having a few close friends is all you need. Of course, social media, TV shows, everything makes you want this group. But anyone who's been in a group, I mean, I've been in groups, both as a kid as an adult, knows that it's not always what it looks like, and I think that's helpful for kids to know. I think that's a great reminder my friend Stacy martinucci, she's a great friend of mine from medical school. She's now an OB GYN in New Jersey, but she used to tell me her grandma gave her this great advice. She said, if you have more close friends, and you can count on one hand you have too many good friends. And I always think about that, because I do think nowadays people think about, How many followers do you have? How many friendships Do you have? We're looking at big numbers, and the big numbers aren't what matter. It really is the quality. Yeah, and that inner circle, that three to five really close friends that you might have, they change over time. I think it's another really important message for kids and to model as adults that it's totally normal for those inner people to swap in and out through time. Yes, I agree. My best friend, his name is Greg. He doesn't really listen to this podcast, but he's someone I talk to all the time. We've been really dear friends since I was 10 years old. You know, we both had friends sort of come and go. And he has a line, reason, season life. I mean, the words are mixed up a little bit, season, reason or lifetime, I think, but I don't. People say it in very different ways. But yes, not all friendships are meant to last forever, and that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the friendship and the bitterness and hurt that I felt about the senior year in high school, or that she was sort of a forever friend that goes to me. I've matured a lot on my feelings on that since then. I was devastated at the time, of course, but I understand now as an adult that that didn't necessarily have anything to do with me, or even if it did, that's okay, like maybe it had run its course, and she probably in an abrupt way, unfortunately, but fast forwarded something that was going to happen anyway. I just wasn't ready for it then. But she wasn't wrong, that we weren't really the right match, like that. Everything can last forever. We change as people, and you can always make new friends. You're never too old, it's never too late, and it's healthy to allow new people into your life as you change. Now I agree that you can't have a bazillion close, close friends, but you can have a wide social network. It's good for you. It's healthy. Another point that is helpful to talk to kids about is how to treat friends, even if you don't think the friendship is going to last. For example, ghosting somebody, I don't think is very kind behavior. Yeah. What is some advice that you can give to adults, for adults to talk to kids about in terms of how, if you feel like you've outgrown a friendship, how can somebody sort of move away from that friendship? It is so hard. This is one of those topics where there is not one right answer and there's really no great options. The textbook thing would be to have a direct conversation and kindly explain that you feel you're moving into different directions. I've heard other friendship experts talk about that. I agree that would be wonderful. I think that is very, very hard. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be a nice thing, but I think if my friend had done that, for example, I would be. Just as hurt who wants to sit down and hear like the friendships over, and if you're really so sure it's done, I mean, are you inviting an opportunity for that friend to give their plea for why it shouldn't be? That is one way. So I'm just telling you what's out there is that you can have a direct but gentle conversation to explain that you're not going to be as available and you're not as interested. You don't want to like be mean about it. You can make it about you. You're have other priorities right now. I don't think it would be any easier to hear as the recipient. What it's like the old song, Breaking up is hard to do. It is like a breakup. There's a term called Quiet quitting that kind of started in the workplace, where maybe people just weren't putting as much of an effort into work. They worked less hours. They kind of just did the least in their jobs. That expression is now morphed into social context, and people, when they talk about quiet quitting, they're talking about friendships a lot, or dating, and that's somewhere between ghosting and the direct conversation. It's not abruptly not texting back. It's not texting back as often. It's not being as available. This is probably the most common way to distance yourself from a friend, and it probably is the most natural and maybe even the kindest, because I try to teach my kids things don't have to be so black and white. You want to be like best friends and then not friends at all. Can there be room in your life to see somebody sometimes, maybe they're not the person that you want to have at your birthday dinner if you're only having four people. But can you hang out with them once in a while? Can you text back and forth once in a while? Can you send a funny meme once in a while? It doesn't have to be this formal breakup all the time that, I think, is the lesson that there is room in life to not burn a bridge. And actually, it's good advice to not burn a bridge and to allow people to be in your life in that in between gray and be comfortable with a little bit of gray. And I think most of us would probably prefer that on the receiving end, but it takes a little discussion with your kid, if your kids do one who wants some distance, and if you're the kid who's on the receiving end of someone who doesn't respond as quickly anymore, or doesn't invite you over as much anymore, I think something like ghosting feels very hurtful, because nobody wants to feel ignored. But I think if you can politely respond back, but maybe less frequently, or maybe stop inviting them over as much, I think that is helpful advice for kids they've had friends where maybe they're not as excited about the friend, or maybe the spark isn't quite there anymore. And I think just pulling back a little bit is like you said, feels better to me. I think burning bridges is something that you want to avoid, if possible, in life. And if you go to school with this person, or you're on a team with this person, I would really encourage the kids that they will probably be on the receiving end of something like this at some time, and just to keep it pleasant for everybody, I think one of the hardest friendship ending issues that happens with kids is usually this is a very good topic, an important one, I think, for your listeners, it's when the children of adults who are friends Don't really have chemistry anymore, so you probably got together when you were young, like the parents would get together, you would invite them over, and you'd all be together. And as the kids get a little older, I think we see this usually around, you know, fourth grade, fifth grade social group sector form, and maybe at school, your best friend's kid is really in a different group. That's tough, but kids have to have the ability to choose their own friends, that you cannot force a friendship. So yes, you can ask your kid to be kind, but at a certain point, this may be a controversial thing to say. I don't think it does kids any favor if they're always invited because the parents are doing favors for each other. Really an issue. Jessica, this is the kid who ends up being a sophomore in high school who doesn't have a homecoming group. Why do they not have a homecoming group? Because everything they've ever been invited to before was a favor to their mom. You have to release that kid earlier on so that kid can actually find true friends who they do have good chemistry with, friends who actually want them around, not just because the mom stood over them while they were texting to say, You better invite so and so, because otherwise their mom's gonna be so upset with me. And this is where the quiet quitting comes in. Maybe the parents at some point need to have a slightly more direct conversation and say, We're gonna be friends no matter what. I think that's a good point to bring up, that, yes, it's sort of a bonus if our kids get along with our friends kids, but I think a healthier, more realistic perspective to help our kids forge strong friendships is to let them find them on their own. And as you pointed out earlier, this is the part that I'm really going to take from this interview in my own life to really make sure that we are encouraging and fostering those friendships and making an effort as parents to help our kids form those friendships, yeah, and give over the message that it's in your hands, your social life is in your hands. You make the plans, and you think about, who do you like, Who do you feel good around, and reach out to those people. But that's why, yeah, it doesn't do a favor. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, how it happens? It really, I think, damages the other. Kid, you think you're doing your friend a favor, and adults are guilty of calling each other and saying, Oh, could you make sure so and so is included in homecoming? I keep using homecoming because it's thinking about a big group. Okay, sure, maybe we can do that for ninth grade. But at what point are you going to make it okay for your kid to not be included, so that they have the opportunity, like they sometimes have to be set free, so that they can be encouraged to find real friends. Now, kids inevitably will fight with their friends. They'll get into an argument. How should parents, in your mind, help our kids navigate through conflict? Like, do you have any general advice that we can offer our kids? Is it just to be a good listener. Is it to help our kids stand in their shoes? Are there some general tips and guidelines that you think about when it comes to conflict? Yeah, and it's all things adults need to do a better job as well. We don't actually know what anyone else is thinking, so the story we tell ourselves about what our friend is thinking is really just a story we're telling ourselves, just like no one knows what we're thinking. And so I really would encourage your kid to give the other kid as much of a break as they give themselves. Meaning, we make mistakes. We all make mistakes, but we know why we made them. Like we know that we said something not that nice at lunch because we were hungry and we got a really bad grade in our test the period before, and that's why we said something kind of nasty. It's like, what if we could give the next person as much of a break as we give ourselves, and that most people deserve forgiveness, like we all mess up. So if you're upset with a friend, it is good to express it, but not with assumptions. That's what I'm saying not to already assume that you know they did and some things are worth letting go, like, just like we're saying we people do things, and it's not always personal. If it's a repetitive thing, somebody's always nasty to you at lunch and you don't know why they're picking on you, okay, well now that's a different thing than they said something one time. So what I'm saying is help your kid know when to let something go and when to actually bring it up with I statements, you know not you are, but like I felt, and then listen, let them talk, give them the opportunity. It's a gift. When you give your friend as an adult or a child, the opportunity to explain themselves, it shows you care about the friendship like I care about this friendship enough that instead of me sulking over here in the corner forever. I'm going to give you the opportunity to just hear me out, and I'm going to hear you out, but you can't do that for every little thing. Part of getting along with people is allowing for some room for mistakes, because you're going to want that room too. Totally agree with you. I think, yes, if you start to hear a pattern from your child that there's a particular friend, where there's a repeating theme, where maybe they're not nice, or they're not acting kind, okay, maybe we don't have to encourage that friendship, but if they're generally a good friend to your child, I believe 100% in giving people grace, we don't know what's happening in someone's life. We don't know what's going on in someone's mind. They might interpret something that your child did in the wrong way. So I think that's such helpful life advice for all of us. Quite frankly, you never know what it's like to stand in somebody else's shoes. And I think the more we remember that, the more you forgive somebody, the easier everything becomes. Yeah, that's right. Don't hold people to impossible standards. That's what it comes down and your kids aren't perfect. Either we can we're advising our kids on friendship. I think we should remember that our kids are not perfect. We are not perfect. They're not perfect. They have a lot of growing to do. And I agree. I do think sometimes, as parents, we want to defend our kids all the way, but it's also important for us to recognize that improving is a good thing. Learning from life experiences is going to benefit them in the long run. Yeah. So Nina, I've so enjoyed this conversation. I think your podcast is helping so many people. So thank you for the work that you're doing. I think getting advice about friendships would benefit all of us. So tell everybody. Where can we find you? So my podcast is called Dear Nina conversations about friendship, and I'm on Instagram and Tiktok at dear Nina friendship. And then there's the newsletter conversations about friendship on substack. Thank you so much, Nina, it's been really a joy. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of your child is normal. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow. You can also follow me on Instagram at ask Dr Jessica, see you next Monday. You.