Ep 214: Raising Intuitive Eaters, with Kim Shapira, Dietician and Author

In this episode of Your Child Is Normal, Dr. Jessica Hochman sits down with dietitian and author Kim Shapira whose book This Is What You’re Really Hungry For helps people rebuild a peaceful relationship with food.

Kim shares how her own childhood health struggles and experiences with patients led her away from traditional dieting and toward an approach centered on trust, body awareness, and emotional honesty around eating.

• Why using dessert or “treats” as rewards (for shots, potty training, etc.) can wire kids to use food for comfort.
• How to talk to kids about hunger and fullness without shaming them or making them feel watched.
• A different way to think about “picky eating” that avoids labels and keeps the door open for kids to change and explore.
• Practical ideas for structuring meals at home—like always offering fruits and vegetables, involving kids in cooking, and de-dramatizing snacks and sweets.
• Why obsessing over ingredients like seed oils may matter less than the bigger picture of connection, variety, and listening to your body.

Instagram / X / general: @kimshapiramethod 

Website:  Kim Shapira Method

Your Child is Normal is the trusted podcast for parents, pediatricians, and child health experts who want smart, nuanced conversations about raising healthy, resilient kids. Hosted by Dr. Jessica Hochman — a board-certified practicing pediatrician — the show combines evidence-based medicine, expert interviews, and real-world parenting advice to help listeners navigate everything from sleep struggles to mental health, nutrition, screen time, and more.

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Kim, welcome back to your child is normal. I'm your host, Dr Jessica Hochman, and today we're talking about something that so many families struggle with, food. If you've ever worried that your child is a picky eater, stressed out about sugar or food labels, or wondered whether you're accidentally setting your kids up for a complicated relationship with food later in life, this episode is for you. I'm joined today by dietitian and author Kim Shapira, whose book, this is what you're really hungry for, focuses on helping people create peace with food. Kim has such a refreshing approach. She's not into restrictive diets. She doesn't label food as good or bad, and she encourages helping kids and parents learn to listen to their bodies and trust their natural cues. My hope is that this conversation gives you practical guidance and confidence and helps you feel more grounded as you raise intuitive eaters without pressure power struggles or stress at the table. And one quick note before we get started, if you found this podcast helpful, taking a moment to leave a five star review would really mean so much. Reviews help other parents discover the show and also support your child as normal as it continues to grow. Thank you so much. Let's get started, Kim, it is so great to have you here. Thank you so much for coming on this podcast. I'm so excited to be with you. Thanks for having me. So I had the pleasure of meeting Kim last week. We went out to dinner, and I found out she was a dietitian, and I was expecting, in all honesty, to see you order a salad, some kale, some water. And I have to tell you, I was so excited that what you wanted and what you ordered was a pizza. Yeah, and I thought this is a dietitian that I like. That's so funny, yes. And how good was that pizza? It was amazing. I love pizza, but I think I'm so averse to restrictive diets, and I'm sure we feel similarly, but there's so much chatter all the time about different types of diets and what you should and what you shouldn't eat, and I just find it so refreshing that you're not that way. Yeah, I'm like, the opposite of that, and I try and open everybody's mind to be the opposite of that. I'm just so curious, is that something that you've intuitively known as your approach, or did you come to that over time? That's a really good question, because I think there's multiple answers. My mom, I think, had been restricted growing up, and so we were not, and I was fortunate enough to live in a house where we had a walk in pantry. It was like the best room in the house, and we had everything you can imagine in that pantry and nothing at the same time. But when my friends would come over, they had seen things that they were never allowed to be around, and they were not interesting. Whatever was in the pantry wasn't interesting to me, because we always had it so like my go to snack, when I came home from school, was cutting a head of lettuce and making a salad, but I had all the hostess and timons Kudos, like all the things that you can imagine, that's just not what I gravitated towards, because I always had it. So I think that was natural, and we didn't really talk about food growing up, or anything weight related or body related. But I was a sick kid and I wanted to be healthy, and a doctor or mentor of mine told me in high school that food can make a person sick or healthy, and that was it for me. I was like, I want to be healthy. I want to help people, because I bet they want to be healthy too. That's so interesting that your mentors words made that impression on you. Yeah, yeah, yes, they really did, but I was so sick. So just out of curiosity, you don't have to share. But how were you sick as a kid? Yeah, and that's also a good question. In 1986 I got a stomach ache, and then it turned into so much more. I went to all six pediatricians in my practice and ended up at gynecologist office four months later. I'm going to speed through it. I was one of eight people who had ever been born with this congenital defect in 1986 so multiple surgeries later and a year like a whole year later, you know, of all that. And then I think just victim mentality and depression and what just happened to me took a toll on me, you know, in high school, like Epstein, Barr, like those kinds of things. So I was probably low vitamin D, to be honest, and just not well, and I wanted to I wanted to be well, I wanted to be healthy. I wanted my body to be thriving. So it must be true, and I would love to hear what you have to say about this. But did that experience as a kid and someone telling you that nutrition could be a way to be healthier? Did that impact your decision in your career? It must have it did in every way I knew that I was going to like help people with food, even though I didn't know the first thing about food and didn't care about food. It was interesting because I never struggled with an eating disorder or disordered eating. But for sure, we all do. We all, for sure, have some disordered ish if. I wouldn't label it that, but I would call myself picky if I did use labels. But I don't, you know, I like what I like, and I'm very opinionated on what I like. I had dinner the other night with my friend. She wanted to go to sushi, and we went to sushi, but she's like, What do you want? I'm like, Oh, actually, I don't eat raw fish, you know, but I love going to sushi. I just don't want to eat what you're going to eat. That's fair. I think a lot of people have strong preferences, and I think it's rare to meet someone who really, truly enjoys everything. So sounds like you're also being honest? Yeah, I think I'm being honest, and I also am not afraid to be honest that I don't want to eat certain foods. And it's just, I think it's okay. You know, the truth is, our taste buds change every seven years. So of course, my taste buds have changed too, and now I like tomatoes. And, you know, like when I was a kid, I wouldn't eat tomatoes, and so, you know, speaking of like kids, even, I would never label a kid picky. And maybe that's something we should definitely talk about at some point, because I feel like maybe at some point I will want to eat fish, raw fish. But right now I don't, but I do want permission to be able to change. Oh, I love that. I completely agree with not labeling anybody anything, because once you put a label on a kid, they're that picky eater, or they're the kid that doesn't eat raw fish, then all of a sudden that's the way they think of themselves, and it leaves them hesitant to open up if they ever change their mind, which we all change our minds, right? I mean, it's not uncommon to change your mind, yeah. And I want that. I want to be able to change my mind too. Yeah, when I think of dietitians, sometimes, maybe I make an incorrect assumption. But I I wonder, have they struggled in their life with eating, and is that why they chose to be a dietitian? But your path sounds so interesting just struggling with health issues as a kid, which I'm really sorry that you went through all that I'm truly not like I definitely wouldn't be here without it. Yeah, I should tell you, though, when we would drive to UCLA, which was every Wednesday, so I would go from Calabasas to Westwood every Wednesday to see my doctors, my mom would say to me, like, Google Shopping after your doctor appointment. So although I didn't struggle with food, I struggled with shopping. And it became like no matter what doctor appointment I went to or what emotion I was feeling, there was going to be some shopping involved. Early on, when I started my practice, I put my clients on diets, because we were trained to use, like any diet that you put somebody on, it would be like, not calories in, calories out, but I would use a diabetic exchanges. So I would say, if you use this many starches and this many proteins and this many fruits and vegetables, we can basically guarantee that you won't be hungry, and also you will lose weight, and also you're going to fix all metabolic dysregulation, meaning you're going to improve your blood sugars, your blood pressure, your heart problems, whatever it is. I did this really early on in my practice, and one of my very first clients who was older than me, probably my age now, but she was a therapist, and I was not her first stop. She had been to many people before me, and I put her on a diet, and she lost 30 pounds, and I really felt like I was winning. And then she told me, after she got off her blood pressure medication, that she was going to gain the weight back. And I said, Why? Why would you gain the weight back? You just like, improved your health? And she said, Well, the truth is, my husband wants to be intimate with me all the time, and I was molested as a child, and wow, got it in that moment, I really deeply understood that this had nothing to do with food, and the way that she's eating, and the way that my clients are eating is very much the same way that I'm shopping. That's really interesting. So you're saying that she wanted to lose the weight, and she was motivated to lose the weight, but her weight was also her shield. It protected her from being vulnerable. Yes, that's really interesting. Yes. And I also your point about how your mom took you shopping after doctor's appointments. What I'm hearing is it was sort of like a Pavlov's dog experience, where she wanted to tie a positive experience to something negative you were going through, so it'd make it more positive, so that it made it not as bad. It made it more palatable. I'd love to hear what you have to say about this, but I have a lot of parents where their kids come here for unpleasant interactions, for example, getting their vaccinations. And all the time they'll say to their kids in front of me, after you get your shots, we're going to go get ice cream, or I'll hear it in a lot of situations. After if you potty train yourself. I'll give you candy. And I notice a lot of parents tie unpleasant Doctor interactions or medical experiences with a treat or dessert. The way I think about it is I don't want my kids to put that much weight, to put that much pleasure into dessert or something that I know is unhealthy for them, because then I worry forever. Are they going to think, Okay, I'm having this unpleasant situation. Well, afterwards, I'm going to treat myself to dessert, which I don't know if that's the best habit to really obsess with what you're saying right now, I'm obsessed with it, and it's exactly right on and like, you can use me as like, an example, right? There was one day I was crying, driving to use. La, and my mom said, don't cry. We'll go shopping. And she took my irrational mindset and she gave me comfort and fun, and she didn't help me get back to a rational mindset. And the truth is, is that we do everything 47% the way we did the day before. We sleep, walk through everything that we do, so we have to be super intentional to make some changes, and people don't like to do hard work, and so it's just really easy, just to repeat old behaviors. But what our mind is doing the second it becomes stressed, let's say, and stress can come in the form of, I'm worried about getting a shot, I'm in physical pain, or I'm full or I'm hungry, it can also be I'm really worried about going to get the shot right. Those are the types of stress that we have, but our body can't tell the difference, and our brain kind of flips its lid in under 10 seconds in response to any one of those stresses. And then we automatically try and think, How can I make this moment more pleasurable, and then if it's shopping or if it's ice cream, after we've kind of sealed the deal that the next time I feel this way, I'm my mind is going to tell me that's the best thing I can do in this moment. We'd have to be so aware. First of all, I'm emotionally triggered or stressed out, and second of all, that's funny that my mind is giving me this idea, I don't really want ice cream. It's like five o'clock in the morning, you know, like, why am I thinking about it? So we have to be so aware and rational. I think what's so hard as a parent is that I really want to teach my kids good, healthy eating habits. You know, they're only with me for so many years, and this is something that I can instill in them so that when they grow up, hopefully they won't have quote, unquote, eating issues. Yeah, but what I find tricky is you don't want to put that much weight on unhealthy foods like your mom did, right? You want to make sure sugar doesn't feel forbidden, that treats don't feel forbidden, so that it's not as appealing because it's there and available. But at the same time, you want to teach them healthy eating habits, yeah? Because the truth is, I don't want my kids to eat hostess, right? Don't want them to eat too much junk. And so I think that's where it's hard as parents, you want to raise them to be healthy eaters, but you also don't want them to obsess about it, yeah, and I get everything you're saying, and at some point we have to trust them, right? We have to also recognize this is their journey, and I'm only their guide. And you know, modeling a behavior is way better than restricting something. So when you think about, like, what you said about if you're going to have a shot, then you're going to go for ice cream, we want a child to say, Okay, what you're doing is you're getting the shot, and this, it could hurt, it probably won't. But also, I'm curious how you feel when you have it, and it's probably doing something for your body that you need, and afterward, you probably won't remember anything about it. But I'm curious how you feel about it, like actually talk to them about it, but don't try and reward them, because that child will grow up to be an adult. You don't want to sugarcoat it. Pun intended, yeah, right. And like, at the same time, like, I really prefer and also coach people not to eat while they're distracted or in front of the TV. And a lot of parents will say, but this is what we do on Friday night. You know, we sit in front of the TV or whatnot, and that's okay occasionally, but the reality is these kids will grow up with the habit of having a snack or eating in front of the TV because they trained and rehearsed that practice over and over and over. I completely agree with that, and parents often tell me, with their younger children in particular, that they're really stressed out because their toddler doesn't eat very much doesn't eat dinner, which is so typical for toddlers, they're notoriously not big eaters, especially when you prepare them a dinner. Yeah, and they will, quote, unquote, trick them to eat more by distracting them, by putting them in front of a screen. And I really discourage parents from doing that, because, okay, you may see them eat more, but then you're teaching them the habit that you eat while you're bored. You eat while you're distracted, as opposed to really being present, savoring the food, enjoying the taste, enjoying your company. I think it's a really bad habit, so I encourage parents to stay away from that at the outset. Yeah, I mean, I stopped putting people on diets probably 28 years ago, to be honest with you at this point. And I teach them what hunger is, and I teach them what satiety feels like, and I teach them what inflammatory issues feel like in your body. And I remind them to trust themselves and to come back to connecting to what their body is telling them. And a lot of people, I mean, I have this fun book club that I do a couple times a year, and we just sat and kind of read 50 pages together, and it was a group of, like, probably 45 women, and they fear hunger, and it's like, nobody wakes up in the morning and thinks I'm going to have to pee six times today. I really am worried about that, and where those toilets were going to be. Everybody wakes up and trusts that they will find a toilet when they need one. And. Sometimes it could get a little uncomfortable, but it's not the end of the world. But with hunger and with eating, there's so much stress that goes into it. I am also not somebody who labels food good bad health or unhealthy at all. I call all food banana, and I say, eat the banana when you're hungry. There's so much that you said that I'm just thinking about in my own personal life, how I grew up. You know, I'm thinking, My mom has a fear of being hungry. It's a real fear. She cannot go to sleep where she thinks she's going to be hungry. So she always, always, always has a snack before bed, because she worries that she's going to wake up hungry. And so what you're saying, it's interesting, because we live in this land of plenty, it's not like food is hard to find. It's everywhere, everywhere. But it's true that it's a real fear that people have. Yeah, I would love to talk about your book. So that brings me to the title of your book, which I love so much. It's called this is what you're really hungry for. So can you tell us what inspired the title? I think you've shared some nuggets that may have led you to this title, but I'm curious, how did you pick this title? It's a good question. You're good at the questions. I had a client today who came to me and she said, I want to lose 15 pounds. And I said, so the goal of this call is to lose weight? And she said, Yes. And I said, Do you mind if I I remove that goal? And she goes, No, no. That's why I'm calling you. I said, Can I shift that goal into I want to learn the practice of learning how to keep the weight off. Most people think like, oh, I just want to lose weight. And then they don't worry about the day after, and then they don't really have a practice built in. So I decided I was going to flip it and give them a practice that was going to give them the side effect of the results they wanted. And what it comes down to is, it's really funny, all the answers I get when I ask people, What are you hungry for? Donuts, pizza, you know, I'm like, no, no, what are you really hungry for? And it's I like to open people's minds to this idea of like, we don't really want to worry about our weight or food or our health. We just want it to be natural in a given and so that's kind of like where it came from. The answer is, we want peace that is so true. You just want to take it off the table. There's so much mental anguish and energy that can go into thinking about your weight, your kids, weight, weight, in general, and it's exhausting. And it would be so nice to find peace from that for so many families, I think they can relate to that statement. Yeah, I hope so. So the goal is to figure out how to find peace from what you're eating. Yeah, also, like, I think parents should refrain from labeling food too. I mean, I think it's going to be a hot button for you, so I want to kind of like push that button a little because I'm curious what you think. Like not everybody is the same, even though we're all the same, sort of speak right? We all have 37 trillion cells, and our body's functioning relatively the same, but some of us have had antibiotics or high stress levels, or some of us don't move as much, some of us don't sleep well, and we have different levels of inflammation, and so not all foods are the same, or our body reacts to food. I mean, you got people with allergies and sensitivities, and so what's the point of labeling a food like Shouldn't we make it a personal experience? Absolutely, I couldn't agree with that more. I have to say, I when I find a young child who uses the word macros or who talks about their protein consumption, it's not my favorite, to be honest, because I feel like they're so young and they should be kids, and they should just be eating for the joy of it, and they shouldn't be thinking like so many adults, think they're too young to worry about protein and processed foods and red dye, 40 and sugar. And I do understand that some education is really helpful for kids. I do try to educate my kids to a point I'll ask them, for example, is this a food that's grown from the earth? You know, if you can visualize where the food comes from, where it's grown, how it's made, those are good choices. But I try really hard not to get into the nitty gritty, because I just don't think it becomes mentally healthy. Nutrition education is very, very tricky, because there's a lot of shame involved, and I think you're smart in doing it that way. Like I said, we're all very similar, and we do need the same things, which is a variety of fruits and vegetables, whole grains, fiber, omega threes, fermented food, probiotics. But our bodies are capable of healing in so many ways. And so you know, a client of mine, her daughter, was in and out of drug rehab, and finally, this one time, she had just come from breaking her her leg, and then it healed. And turned to her mom, and she said, you know why this one's going to be different? Because I didn't know I could heal. And I think it's deeply profound to really love and respect our body so much that we offer all that we can to support it, but we do not get caught up in the small stuff, like I talk about six rules all the time. I use the word rules on purpose because it's kind of like in kindergarten, you have rules, and these have to become a practice, and they have to become the essence so you grow up and to be this person who already has this built in practice, right? And one of the rules is to eat when you're hungry. And so then I'll say to them, okay, but now, where does cake fit in? And it's confusing. And I would say cake is normal. It's very normal to have cake. It's also very normal to not always have cake, but if you have to have cake every single day, we have a problem. But it doesn't always have to be when you're hungry. And so like when my kids came home from school every day, and my kids now are 2119 and 16, there would be a plate of cut fruit and cut vegetables on the counter, like ready for their snack. But they would also go into the snack drawer and get anything they wanted. So maybe I made muffins that day, or there was, like, 100 calorie packs, who knows. But it was always a combination of things as it's always been. And it was never, know you can't have it, but it was more. How does that make you feel? You're complaining of a stomach ache. I wonder if it's that. What if you tried not having it and see how you felt? So you lead with the healthy food. You make sure you offer the healthy food. Yeah, I don't call it healthy, but yeah. Okay, okay, yeah. I mean, blueberries give me diarrhea if you really want to know. And they're super food. So not all foods treat everyone the same, yeah, to your point, everybody has different sensitivities. My daughter, for example, she can't have carrots. They make her stomach hurt, yeah? And for most people, I would say it feels like a very nutritious food. Yeah, it has a lot of nutrition, yeah. So I would say, you offer it, the kids will eat it, but I wouldn't label it. Basically, you're taking the power away from it. You're putting it out there. If they're hungry, you'll trust they'll have a bite. They'll help themselves, without putting any stress or shame on what they're eating. Yeah. So I love how you talk about trusting your body, teaching a kid to trust their body, and I agree with this in principle. I think as an adult, I can tell when a food, you know, I don't want to say the word unhealthy. I have to break this habit, but a less good choice for my body makes me feel not great if I have a lot of cake, for example, or too many of my mom's homemade cookies. But I find with my kids, that doesn't happen very often, their bar until they're not going to feel good is pretty high. And so how do you impart that wisdom to a child who can have three in and out burgers and still feel great, and explain that that's not the best choice for a growing body. Is it three hamburgers in a row, or three in a day? Three in an hour? My son, who was in seventh grade, he could definitely put away a few hamburgers if I let him. Yeah, that's funny. Okay, and how was he before the hamburgers? Now we're just going to pick on your son. I feel bad. Don't feel bad. He's actually a good eater, so I'm a little bit exaggerating, but I would say he was hungry for dinner. Yeah. Okay, so I try and remind people to smell their food, not so literally, but also literally, right? Because we need to use our mouth for what it was made for, which is breaking down food. It's our first form of digestion. So sometimes just smelling food or thinking about lemons or pickles creates salivary amylase, which we need. And then, you know, all of our teeth, we're supposed to chew our food between 15 and 44 times per bite. And so, like steak, 44 bites. Maybe a banana would be like three or four, right? But somewhere in there is the truth of what you need to be doing. And this is not a popular opinion, but this is the truth food is very, very boring if we eat it correctly. So what happens is your son would now smell the hamburger just like basically he knows that he's ready for food. If we don't get saliva, it actually means that our body is telling us we're not ready for food. We could be in a heightened, anxious state, and we need to kind of take some more deep breaths until we actually feel the saliva. And then I would recommend taking a bite of the hamburger, putting the hamburger down, and now we gotta chew the food. Super boring. Nobody likes to chew it because we like to chew, chew, chew, swallow instead of chew, like 10 or 15 or 20 times we are supposed to swallow liquid, boluses, right? If we're not, then we're actually making our stomach do more work than it's intended to, and it can't do the work. Our stomach is very, very acidic, and it's meant to break down proteins, fats, viruses, funguses, all that. But if we don't properly break it down in our mouth, we actually then create inflammatory responses. And so with your son, who's in seventh grade, my guess is he's getting very hungry, and he's eating very quickly, and he's missing out on really important things. And so instead of focusing on this is bad or this is junk, what I would say is I wonder what would happen if you slowed down. I think that's great advice, because I'm just thinking about in today's fast paced world where parents are always on the go, taking their kids to soccer practice, back to school, back from this activity. You to the next activity. I think a lot of us eat on the go. We're always in a rush, and as I'm hearing you talk, I'm thinking about how I'm something that I really want to work on is finding the time to really sit down with my kids and have meals where we take our time, where we're not in a rush. Because I think that would hit on a lot of what you're saying. It would give us time to smell food, to chew slowly, to really enjoy a nice quality meal together, all of that, and also it's what your body actually needs. So like hunger is based on your ghrelin hormone, right? It sends a signal to your brain, it's time to eat. And then satiety, or fullness, is based on leptin, the hormone that tells your brain, okay, we're satisfied. And that happens from the 15 minutes mark, from the moment you start eating. And so I once had a client who, every time she would go into advisory, the teacher would bring donut holes. And she was a kind of person who would eat like, three donut holes very quickly. And when I thought of myself eating donut holes, I thought, I think I would take bites of a donut hole. I wouldn't pop it in my mouth, so I probably would take two or three bites of a donut hole, which means I'm eating one donut hole at the same time she's eating three donut holes. And so when I'm thinking of the example of your son eating three hamburgers, it's because he's so hungry and he's doing it so fast. Or else he doesn't really ever get access to those hamburgers, and he doesn't know when he's going to get it again, and so we tend to overeat or eat fast when something is not available. So I think this is a really helpful tip, because I talk to a lot of parents that are very stressed, honestly, very, very stressed, because they notice their kids have not so healthy habits, that they fill up on really processed foods, that they look for the chips and the cookies and more junk food. And we talk about how to help the kids avoid those foods and how to substitute for other foods, but what I'm learning from you is that maybe it's not about stopping them consuming those foods. It's about teaching them to appreciate them, to slow down, to chew them. Maybe that's something that I need to stress with families. Yeah, I really wish you would. I think you would see, first of all, a lot of peace, a lot of fear, first, especially if they think their kid's going to eat the whole bag of chips because they haven't been given the chips, and suddenly they're bringing chips into the house. But what I would do with chips is they would be part of a meal, right? So they would be next to the fruits and vegetables. I remember when Natasha, she was 16, when she was really, really little, she wanted ice cream once for dinner. She didn't say how much she wanted, and so I got, like, the tiniest little cup, and I put it right next to the dinner, and she just ate it with her food. We didn't call it special. We didn't call it a treat. We didn't call it anything, right? I mean, there were so many things that I did when my kids were growing up, like we made menus, very loose menus, but each kid got one night, and every single night, like Olivia would pick, let's say chicken and potatoes, but every single night there were fruits and vegetables cut, and then there was also a salad or steamed vegetable or roasted vegetable on top of the cut fruits and vegetables, because maybe Natasha didn't eat the chicken, or she didn't like the potato, but I knew that she would eat fruits and vegetables, and my job was done, right? And then every single night, a kid got a night, and we just always, no matter what, had so many fruits and vegetables, like, so many, like, there was five of us growing up, so that's like, you know, three or four fruits a day we had, like, what, 3040, pieces of fruit in the fridge available to be cut. You sound like a great mom. You're putting a lot of love to your kids through how you feed them. And that's really beautiful. Thank you. So I wanted to talk about some of the rules in the six simple rules that you laid out in your book, you mentioned the rule that you have to eat when you're hungry. So I'm just curious, how would you talk to a kid about that? Because I feel like the tone really matters. Some parents, as they see their kid having dessert, I can picture my mind them saying, Are you really hungry? Do you really want that food? And that's sort of already instilling a little bit of shame, I think, in the way they're saying it. So how should a parent check in on a kid and make sure that they're eating when they're hungry? Yeah, I learned a long time ago, when Olivia was like a newborn in my mommy and me class, the teacher said, when your child is walking down the sidewalk and they fall and they start crying. Don't ever tell them, Don't cry. This doesn't hurt, because you can't actually see the pebbles that are buried in their skin. And I think that it's really important to trust your child. And so I would ask, what does hunger feel like? Do you feel it in your stomach? Do you feel it in your chest? Is it in your hand? Your hands? Is it in your head? Because hunger should be isolated to your stomach. It's not scary, it's not uncomfortable, but it does get louder when you ignore it. Is it a little hungry? Let's talk about what a little is, but the rule is to you when you're hungry and just start with half. And so there's a fail. Safe that no one's over eating right because the other half is just on hold right there. And this really came from me wanting to buy something I couldn't afford, so I put it on hold, I walked away, and then I realized, Oh, actually, I don't want it. I do that with Amazon shopping. I put in my cart, and I make myself sit on it for a day or two. Yeah, it's the same thing. So if we just put it there, and then we also feel safe that it's right there, then we don't need to overeat it. So I would be playful about this. What does hunger feel like? Because it's not scary. It's interesting. Because, as you mentioned, a lot of people do fear hunger. And so I wonder how much of it comes from our childhood, and how much of it can we try to correct? Yeah, I think a lot of it, I remember going every time I had to have a blood test in the morning and a fasting one, I was petrified, like I was going to starve to death. And then one time, my doctor was running really late, and I didn't starve to death, and I was, like, amazed. It's an expression, right? Not the reality, yeah. So when you talk about the satiety hormones and the hunger hormones like ghrelin and leptin. I'm so curious, do those actually work against us, like when people are feeling hungry? I've always read that there's a natural set point in the body that if you end up losing some weight, the body will want to bring you back to that original set point, 100% 100% Yeah. So, I mean, there's so much we can talk about just right, you know, like our natural GLP, one, our natural glucagon, like peptide hormone, that when that's in harmony, we actually can feel hunger and satiety. But what's really amazing about this is that our body thrives in consistency. And so if you eat, you know, let's say 2000 calories today. You don't need to count calories tomorrow, your body will drive your appetite to get the same amount of food, not in calories, but in weight. Interesting, yeah, and so let's just say you binged. Then you can bet that your body is going to drive you to get the same amount of food and weight the next day. And what's really interesting is I've never kept track of my, like, what I'm eating or whatnot, but the ranch in Malibu sent me, like, a couple days of food. So it was like three days. Didn't look like a lot, but it was like normal amount of food. And so I just wanted to try and see how I felt. So this is, like, the first time I've ever experienced experimented with something like this, and I ate the flat bread when it came or whatever, and I was hungry and ready for the meal when I ate it. And I was satisfied every single day for those three days, but the next week, I was ravenous, like I couldn't catch up to getting satisfied. So it's very interesting how our body can communicate. So then the question is, then, how do we really lose weight, or how do we really make changes? Right? Absolutely, and I'm thinking there was a time in my life where I gained some weight. From the end of high school through the first couple years of college, I was steadily gaining 10 pounds a year, and before I knew it, I was about 40 pounds overweight. And I remember feeling hungry. My mom would say to me, you just had dinner and you had dessert, and you're still looking in the refrigerator for more food. And I truly felt hunger in my body, and I remember that was a really hard habit to break. I knew I was overeating, but I really wanted and was craving food. And what made a shift for me was my junior year, I did a semester abroad in Spain, and the way they eat is very different. There's not really foods to snack on. It's a different food culture than we have and I was walking a lot to class, and the weight slowly started to come off. It came off very naturally. And then I started to have a habit where I wasn't as hungry anymore. I sort of got used to having less calories or less food every day, and then it just sort of stayed with me. Does that fit into your story? No way. Yeah, it does. It does. But it also fits in to the emotional piece. Because, like, I wish I could have asked your younger self, like, where did you actually feel hunger? Probably stress. I mean, looking back, I was pre med, and I would have snacks while I would study, because it was something that I could look forward to. Yeah, so have dried mangoes while I studied. Were they nutritious? It was an excess. So in that way, it was not healthy. It was not nutrition. This is one of the reasons why I'd be careful, because, like, we rationalize what we consider healthy all the time, and our body can't tell the difference between strawberries and ice cream when we're not hungry, so I would not call something healthy, especially if it's you know, causing you to maybe have some ghrelin resistance, where you really weren't able to recognize what true hunger was versus emotional hunger. But what I loved about your story was so beautiful, because what you found was yourself, right? You walked, you ended up eating just as much as you needed. And Spain wasn't about the food, it was about the culture, and it was something exciting, and there was some ease in your day. And so like, yeah, we have to overhaul our lives. Types, sometimes we have to have really good boundaries and say, You know what, I'm going to spend an hour walking every day, or I'm going to start taking workout classes and build some muscle in my body. And I can't tell you how many times people want to argue with me when I say food is not fun. And they say no, but it is. And like, you know, when I was at dinner with you, my food was delicious, but it wasn't my fun. You were my fun. You were my entertainment. Yeah, actually, really agree with that. Good company is the entertainment, exactly. And so when we misplace it and think it's about the food, most eating disorders or emotional eating, it's never about the food, but we do make it about the food. But I have to say, I really can enjoy a good meal. I really do love when food tastes good and it feels it should satisfy and enjoyable, yes, but it shouldn't be our form of fun or entertainment or our source of comfort, and it's also not the enemy. The only thing I would say to that is we have to do it so often, right? You can't not eat, yeah, and we often eat multiple times a day. So in my mind, I always think, because we have to do it so often, why not make it something enjoyable? So I actually do try to think of food as an enjoyable experience. I'm because 21 times in a week minimum, hopefully. But Rule number two is to eat what you love. I'm not going to eat what I don't love. I love delicious food. I love what I love. I see what you're saying, but I do it when I'm hungry, and only as much as I need trusting I'm going to eat it again, probably in three hours. It's not our entertainment, it's our sustenance, and we should sustain ourselves with food that we actually enjoy the taste of. Studies prove that we taste the first and last bite of everything we eat and nothing in the middle. So I would challenge everybody to eat, to be present. Like your son probably not present, and he probably would have wanted to be I've actually tried to teach that rule to my kids when we go for ice cream, I'll tell them, there's the law of diminishing returns. The first bite that you have is the best, and every bite after that is not going to be as enjoyable. And they'll have 1015, bites, and they'll say, Mommy, we're still enjoying our ice cream. That's good, as they should. Yes, as they should. That's good. Then they're doing it right? They're full of presents, you know? Perfect. Okay, good, good, yeah. And I think I want them to pay attention to when they're not enjoying it anymore, to stop, because at that point it becomes mindless. And yeah, I mean, we have six thoughts a day, right? And sometimes those thoughts are, this isn't enough food, and sometimes the thought is, this is going to be too much food. Either way, it's really honoring what is my mind saying. And also, like is that the truth is there truth behind what my mind is saying. Because most of the time our mind is lying to us. It's trying to help us get into a more pleasurable moment. That's true. We are creatures that seek pleasure, that is for sure. So I'm curious. You want to talk about picky eating, and your thoughts on picky eaters? That is a question that I do get all the time from parents. There's a lot of stress in the house because parents feel like their kids are so picky, and that's something that they need to improve and work on with their kids. So what do you have to say to that? What would you tell parents that find stress over their kids being quote, unquote picky? Yeah, don't label them as picky. Let them show you who they are and give them permission to change. So I would take them to every kind of supermarket, farmer's market, any little farm that you can go and I would have your child get their hands on the food, in the food, cooking the food, taking ownership of the food. They don't have to try it. A child has to see a food 10 times before they're even interested in trying it. But give the child total ownership over the food, like, what would you like to make? You know, for dinner tonight, what should we add to the meal? Make them a participant. Don't label them and don't make them feel bad about food. It's true. When my kids are active participants, they're much more likely to eat the food. My oldest daughter has gotten into baking, and she's gotten into some light cooking, and when she makes the food herself, when she has some say in it, I know for sure she's going to eat that food. Yeah, there was a study done many, many years ago. They took kindergarteners, and they asked the kindergarteners to stand still for as long as they could. And I think these five year olds could stand still for like, three minutes. And then they said to the kindergarteners, okay, now pretend you're guarding a princess, and these young kids stood for 30 minutes in play. And so when we can get them to use their imagination and to be playful, they'll do anything. That's a great tip. I do think whenever you can add in some playfulness, making things a little lighter, adding in humor, maybe some stories, kids respond very well to that. Yeah. Now, what about parents? So you mentioned that your mom had her own stuff around eating, and she was able to raise you in a way where food wasn't restricted. Yeah, I love that, and I'm just assuming. Do you think that's a lesson that we parents should learn from your mom and how she i. Actually think so. My mom didn't really share a lot. She just when she goes shopping, she won't buy elastic pants, and she also doesn't like label food, or necessarily think that people should be restricted, because I think she had been. And so it wasn't a big topic growing up, which is interesting when I look back and I'm so grateful, but it was just just simple things that she told us intuitively. It sounds like she knew she wanted to do it differently. Yeah, yeah. She modeled a great behavior my mom's rule, which I actually really appreciate. She said she would bake for us anytime we asked, and she really did, but she didn't want us to have food that was made with any kind of chemical. So as a kid, we didn't have Oreos and we didn't have a lot of candy in the house. But if we asked her mom, can you make your banana cake? Can you make your chocolate chip cookies? Can you make your brownies, your lemon squares, she would gladly do it, even though there were some things that we didn't really have in our home. She didn't make sweets forbidden for us, and I think as a result, that did us a lot of favors. Yeah, I think so. And I think if anyone takes anything away, I think they should really put this into practice. I agree. Now one last thing I want to ask you about. You had mentioned not to call foods good or bad, and I love this point. I want to ask you about this, because I find that we do label foods as bad. There's so much talk about ingredients we should stay away from. For example, seed oils are all the talk, and I have to wonder, if we get a little bit in our body, is it really that bad? But what are your thoughts? I'd love for you to expand more on that thought about good foods and bad foods and why we should stay away from those labels. So seed, seeds, in general, are very good sources of vitamin E, linoleic acid. They have omega sixes. And of course, we want to have a higher ratio of omega threes. And what we do want some omega sixes. And in general, seeds have all these great nutrients that we need, and there is no proof that they cause inflammation in our body. Now, the what they could be attached to, or what product they could be in, could be something like carrots. And so your daughter might be mistaking like this seed oil, and that's why I have inflammation. But it was carrots all along. And so I would be very careful in thinking this way. Every single thing we eat is processed in one way or another, and our bodies again, heal, and if we can support it to the best of our ability, then these noxious chemicals that are in a lot of things our body basically can detox, if we just give it what it needs and let it be I think it's so fascinating that people will put so much thought into seed oils, but they'll drink alcohol, no problem. And that's very hard on the body, but the liver mostly can handle it. We have a very powerful body, and I agree with you, it's capable of doing a lot of healing. We can handle a lot. We can handle a lot. So I would say, like, don't get so caught up in that, and make sure you're having all the other things you need on top of whatever else is around. But I do like the idea of calling food a banana. The example would be like you're having chicken and potatoes and broccoli and salad and then for dessert, cheesecake. But if we changed it to like a banana with some banana and a side of banana with a little banana, and then you're probably not going to want the other banana after dinner. What ends up happening is you really question, what do I need in this moment? What does my body need and how much? And you don't miss out on any of the stuff that you really think is delicious, but you really do pay attention to what you're needing. It's so funny because I hear what you're saying absolutely but I'm thinking, Could I really think of my dessert as a banana and different from the salad that I start off with. I'm going to give it a try. But how many times do people eat dessert when they're not hungry? All the time? And the problem is, is that that's the problem. Where does that get stored? How does our body handle it? And again, our body cannot tell the difference, but it doesn't have room. It will store it as fat. I agree with that. I think what you're saying absolutely is correct, that a gift that we can give ourselves is if we can learn to eat when we're hungry and stop when we're not, and trust that there's more, and trust that there's more because there is more, there is more, a lot more. Yeah. And so if we can give up the shame of, you know, I'm going to be bad tonight, or I'm going to eat this. You know, treat these are not things that we should be saying or how we should feel about ourselves. There's a line that I've liked people will say, try to be 80% good and 20% bad. And I don't really think of things in terms of percentages, but I think that concept of do your best to eat well for yourself, give yourself some fiber, some nutritious foods. And if you're eating some other foods that aren't as good for you, so be it. But just try not to lead with that. And I would kind of even take it further, to love yourself so much that you honor what your body needs. So for parents, listening, if you could. Leave them with one core message about how to raise their kids to grow up, to be confident, intuitive eaters. What would it be? I would say, fill your house with a variety of foods. Don't label them. Have your kids get really involved in the kitchen. Buy fun things to help them get really into like cooking and cleaning and all that stuff, and make dinner time pleasant, but don't make it about the food. Don't ever make it about the food. And Kim, I love that. That message really resonates with me. So thank you for people that are listening, that want to find you. They're interested, they want to schedule a visit with you. Tell them the age of people that you'll see. Will you see kids? Do you only see adults who can schedule a visit with you? And how can they find you? Yes, you guys can find me on all socials at Kim Shapira method. My website is Kim Shapira method. I post every day on like all the socials to try and give you guys good information to help with your relationship with food. I see all ages across the board for everything, but if your child is struggling, I would rather see the parent to really talk about how you talk to your child about food and what eating is like in your house, and giving a parent tools on how to make it a more pleasant experience. Thank you. All right, so you will see kids and you'll do tele visits as well. Yeah, I think my whole practice is televisits At this point, and your book can be found on Amazon and everywhere, everywhere books are sold. This is what you're really hungry for. Well, thank you so much for doing what you do. I'm really appreciative to know that there's a dietitian out there like you. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of your child is normal. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow.