Ep 231: Pumping 101: How to Make It Easier (and Less Overwhelming), with Tamari Jacob, One With The Pump

In this episode of Your Child Is Normal, Dr. Jessica Hochman sits down with pumping expert Tamari to break down everything parents need to know about pumping—from when to start, how often to pump, and how to make it actually work in real life.

They talk honestly about the challenges of breastfeeding and pumping, the pressure many moms feel, and why it doesn’t have to be as stressful as it often seems. Tamari shares practical, realistic advice to help make pumping more manageable—and even empowering.

This conversation also covers:

•  When to start pumping (and when you don’t need to) 
•  How to maintain milk supply 
•  Pumping at work and in real life 
•  Choosing the right pump 
•  Common mistakes that make pumping harder than it needs to be 
•  The emotional side of feeding decisions—and letting go of guilt

Connect with Tamari:  Tamari offers resources, courses, and practical guidance to help make pumping easier and less stressful for moms.

•  Website: www.onewiththepump.com
•  Instagram: @onewiththepump 

Your Child is Normal is the trusted podcast for parents, pediatricians, and child health experts who want smart, nuanced conversations about raising healthy, resilient kids. Hosted by Dr. Jessica Hochman — a board-certified practicing pediatrician — the show combines evidence-based medicine, expert interviews, and real-world parenting advice to help listeners navigate everything from sleep struggles to mental health, nutrition, screen time, and more.

Follow Dr Jessica Hochman:
Instagram: @AskDrJessica and Tiktok @askdrjessica
YouTube channel: Ask Dr Jessica

If you are interested in placing an ad on Your Child Is Normal click here or fill out our interest form.

-For a plant-based, USDA Organic certified vitamin supplement, check out : Llama Naturals Vitamin and use discount code: DRJESSICA20

-To test your child's microbiome and get recommendations, check out:
Tiny Health using code: DRJESSICA 

The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only.  She does not diagnose medical conditi...

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Hi everybody, and welcome back to your child. Is normal. I'm your host. Dr Jessica Hochman, so today we're talking about pumping, which is something that so many moms go through. Pumping can be incredibly helpful. It gives moms flexibility. It can make breastfeeding possible, but it can also be really challenging, time consuming and sometimes just frustrating. I'm joined today by Tamari Jacob, also known as one with the pump. We talk about things like when to start pumping, how often to do it, how to make it work in real life, and also how to take some of the guilt out of feeding decisions. This is a really reassuring, helpful conversation, especially for new moms, and if you're enjoying your child as normal, I'd be so grateful if you took a moment to leave a five star review. It really helps more parents find the podcast. Go on to my conversation with tamari, Jacob, Mari, it's so much fun to have you here. I have to tell you, I've done a lot of podcast episodes relating to early motherhood and the challenges, but I have not yet done one on pumping, so this is going to be a great topic. Yes, love it, and pumping is like a sport, so I'm so happy to finally get in here be able to talk it through with you. There's so much about it, so many people pump, but it's like the Forgotten sport of life that everyone just puts to the side and then cause them a lot of drama. So I'm here to make it suck a little bit less. That's a great way to put it. I hadn't thought about it as a sport, but it really is that it takes a lot of time. You have to learn the craft to do it well. So absolutely, that's exactly it's really like, it takes a lot of effort, and if you do it right, it can be so much easier than if you are just fumbling through the whole time, which majority, by the way, of moms, do, and that's why they always look back and they're like, I hated pumping, and I look at them and I'm polite, so I just don't say anything, but I'm like, if you come to me, you'll hate it a lot less. And they're like, Okay, next time. And they actually do usually come back. As I was looking through your Instagram page, what I was thinking to myself was genuinely, I wish I had had you in my life 15 years ago, when I first started breastfeeding. And I'm sure you hear this line all the time, but I really had a love hate relationship with pumping as a working mom, I really, really wanted to make breastfeeding work, but I had to figure out how to make pumping work, and I learned a lot along the way. And the advice that you're giving out, I think is so helpful, and you do it in such a humorous way. So I feel like we have to. I mean, in general, I like to live my life that way. I mean, maybe my husband and kids wouldn't agree I'm not as fun or funny at home, but being a mom is just so hard, and it's even harder in the days of social media where, like, I just saw my friend a real of this creator day where she was like, here's my day in the life of, like, 4am to 12 noon, 4am and she's like, 5am I get up and I work out, because that's how you start the day. And then I literally just like, it's not real life, like a lot of that, it's not but I think you have to go with it through humor, because if you don't laugh at that, you're going to cry at that. So it's just easier to just be happy with it. Go with the flow and make things chill. I try to just make pumping and nursing and just pressing it as a whole, just so much calmer and more relaxed than other people make it to be, because it's very stressful for moms. It actually doesn't have to be so bad if we just, like, just, just take a breath. It's not so bad. I promise it's true. And taking the guilt out of it, I think, is so important, because I think social media offers a lot, but I think, yeah, your point about the real about someone waking up at 4am and exercising is that really what we're all supposed to be doing? And again, like, everyone has to do what they want to do, but there's no guilt. Like, good for that mom for doing it at 4am and good for the mom that does it at 12 and good for the mom that doesn't do it at all. We're all just trying to get through the day and survive till bedtime, so we're just doing our best. And my hope is, if you can sprinkle in a little laughter and fun in there, exactly, it just makes it better. I just want people to know that it doesn't have to be as stressful as people are making it out to be. Is really my main goal. I love your goal, so I'd love to hear about you. How did this become your passion? How did you become the pumping expert. That is a good question. I have to say, I definitely never planned it. It's for sure. I went to school to be a teacher, to be an early childhood, special and regular education teacher. I ended up getting a job as an assistant teacher, and I will always say, even though I feel differently about it now, I loved it when I was in it, and I loved it when I did not have my own kids, like I loved my students, and it really only changed once I had my own children, which I'm sure a lot of teachers could relate to, that it's very difficult to have that balance of especially if you're in early childhood, being with children all day and then coming home to children, I used to Tell my husband, like, all I do is negotiate with children. Like, the minute I wake up to the minute I go to sleep, I am negotiating with children 24/7 and I didn't really see any other way. I thought I would just retire at 65 for the nice pension from the New York City public schools. I thought it was going to be fantastic, and it was fine in 20. 17, when I had my first son, I didn't really know what I wanted to do, because I'm a first time mom, and I had no clue. But I was like, I want a nurse, like my family, nurse. I was like, Yeah, I want to do it. I had this I don't know why I wanted to give my kid breast milk or why I wanted to nurse. I just did, and I was not able to make it work at all. I he didn't know what he was doing. I didn't know what I was doing. It was just drama, drama, drama. And I remember one of my last OB appointments when I was still pregnant with him, she asked me, like, do you plan to nurse? And I said, Well, I really want to, I hope it works out. If not, I'll do formula. And she was the one that told me, you know, if it, if nursing doesn't work out, you could just pump, but put in bottles. That was the first time it even went into my head that I didn't even know that it was an option at all. Like, I never heard anyone talk about anything like that. So I was like, oh, good to know. Like, kind of stored in the back of my head. He came out. He couldn't watch for anything. He couldn't find it, couldn't go anywhere, like, absolutely nothing. And I ended up starting to pump. And I kept trying. I tried for two months, paid so many lactation consultants, tried every bottle, every supplement, every this, every that really tried to make it work. I was grieving the nursing journey that I thought that I was going to have. I had two friends that gave birth in the same couple of months. They were nursing like champs. I'm sitting there struggling. I have the pump on, and basically the two month mark I made the choice. I was like, I'm just going to exclusively pump. And it was very lonely. It was 2017 I don't believe Instagram was a thing, or definitely wasn't a big thing yet, because I remember, like, being on blogs, there were, there was Facebook groups that I was able to find. But it was definitely a lonely situation. I didn't really process anything. Kind of just went through it went on my day. Then I was pregnant again in 2019 and I was like, Okay, let's give this another shot. My daughter was born March of 2020 if anyone doesn't remember, what else happened in March of 2020 it was a worldwide pandemic that none of us could have you know, really known what was going to come and again, guys, march 2020. Was not June. We were not on Zoom yet. We were all just fighting for our lives, like trying to figure out what to do with our kids in March. We were right in that in between time, so no one was seeing each other in person, so I couldn't get her to latch either, because I didn't learn anything. So I ended up pumping for her. Also I'm pumping for her. We're all stuck in the house. And then a couple of my friends had babies the same time again, and they could ask me for pump help, because I had pumped with my son. And then one day, I was like, let me just put things into an Instagram just for my friends. I'll keep it really small. I am thankful to say that it ended up just becoming so important to so many people that it just kind of exploded. I mean, and I was basically running this Instagram and business while I was teaching, I would have a consult at 6am at 7am when I got to the building, teach my kids, and then at night, I would have consoles. I was basically just running them both simultaneously until, thankfully, it took off enough that in 2023 I was able to quit teaching and run well with the pump full time. So that's a very long answer to your very short question, but that I feel like it's important to have all of the backstory of where it all came from, and I honestly wouldn't change a thing, and I'm super thankful that I made it here today. I love when lemonade comes from lemons. I love a pandemic, literally. I love it also. And again, I know for people that haven't had breastfeeding grief, it's like, what's the big deal? But at that time, it really was one of the hardest things that I ever went through. And again, I know for some people, that's like, oh, that's the hardest thing. Listen, we all have our things. And again, at the time, it was one of the hardest things I went through. And it was very, very, very difficult. And I'm so thankful that I went through that now, because I know that I'm helping so many other moms who are just navigating how to nurse and then go back to work and pump, or navigating how to combo feed, or navigating how to exclusive pump because they wanted to, or they also could have nursed. So I'm thankful that I'm able to really help them, and I know that if I didn't start in the pandemic, it would not have worked out that way. And I'm just thankful that I happen to have done it, because it's much harder now to get out the pandemic. I feel like we're all just stuck in our houses, and it was we're all just looking for something to do. You know it's true. As I'm talking to you, I'm thinking about how grateful I am for the pump invention, because my mom was not able to breastfeed me. And I remember she watched me with my pump, and she said, You know, I think if I had this when I was raising you, I think I would have been able to breastfeed. Because when I was a baby, there were no electric pumps. It was just handheld pumps, which were really arduous, really labor intensive. And I think about when I first started breastfeeding, it definitely was not easy or natural for me, and the pump was great for me personally, because I had a lot of pain with breastfeeding. And I remember I had tremendous pain, tremendous pain when my first born started to nurse, and I was able to put the pump at the lowest, lowest, lowest setting and keep up with some degree of milk extraction, which allowed you to eventually heal and be able to breastfeed successfully later on down the line. It took a month or two, but as much as I hated the pump, it did allow me to become eventually a successful breastfeeder. Yeah, and it really could be a great tool, a. Especially those early days. And I say this about both the pump and formula, they can both be very important and helpful tools to be able to get you on your journey, like in my most recent baby, who's about 10 months now, I had to supplement the beginning because he was turning yellow and having the pump, having formula, having other ways to kind of get you through that hard time, saves so many journeys, and I'm so thankful for it, especially nowadays. You know what pumps they have? You know what they had back in the day? Like, I swear, forgetting about the manual pump, what they had in 2017 versus what they have now, it's incredible. My youngest child is 10 years old, and I feel like in the last decade, things have dramatically improved during covid. Was one like the first, like the LV was like one of the first one in the willow. Those are the first wearables to really come out. There are 100 now, and so many different options, like these wearable pumps. They have charging cases, they have the Bluetooth compatibility. And by the time you're listening to this podcast, I wonder what they're going to have by then. And honestly, it's amazing. I'm so happy that we're like, catching up with the needs of moms, and it's just changing the game. It's allowing moms to be able to extend for much more than they want to, which is great. It's bringing a smiles on my face. I love it. I love it. I love how it's coming. So I feel like pumping is one of these activities where you hear a lot of rules from different people. For example, when's the best time to start pumping, how often to pump? So I'd love to talk with you to go through just the general basics when it comes to pumping. And I'd love to start with, when do you recommend moms start pumping? So after they've had their baby and they try to put the baby onto the breast, when is the ideal time to actually start pumping? Yeah, so it really, I know it's always annoyed to say it depends, but it really depends on what's going on. What's going on. So it's really important to understand that it is based on what your goals are and how it's going so if your goal is to nurse, and you have that baby and that baby is nursing and that baby is pooping and that baby is gaining weight, you don't need to look at a pump. Good for you, like, fantastic. If it's working for you, don't even think about it, unless, of course, if you are going back to work. As a side note, I do recommend opening up the pump at least two weeks before you get back to work, so that your baby is a chance to take a bottle, and you can practice pumping right after you have the baby. If things are going well with nursing, you do not need to stress about pumping at all. Some like stay at home moms, you might never have to touch it. You might keep it in the box the whole time, and that's it. The problems occur is when a mom wants to nurse and nursing isn't working. So the main thing to keep in mind is, if the baby is getting a bottle, you need to pump. So if you want one headline, one bold underline, if a baby is getting a bottle, you need to pump. If you want to keep up with your milk supply. Of course, if you're just using formula and you're not doing anything that it doesn't matter. But anytime that milk goes into that baby, whether it's formula or whatever is in the bottle, your breasts need to know, and that is when you need to pick up a pump. And then, of course, if you're exclusively pumping right after the same way that you would nurse, you'd want to do it within the first couple of hours after birth. You want to get that started, but you need to be emptying your breasts every three hours, whether it's nursing, whether it's pumping, and if that baby gets a bottle, you need to use that pump. That is, like one of the main things I want you to take from this podcast today. Yeah, and I agree with that. I think if you think about supply and demand, if you want to keep up with your supply, it's really important to make sure you match what your baby is taking in, because that way, exactly, if you're ever not at work, or you ever are around your baby, you'll be able to match their demand. And the other thing is, I think health wise, for the mother, it's important to pump as they eat, because you could risk having something called mastitis if not enough milk is expressed. I think that's a great point to bring up, yeah, and that's one of the main things that moms do not really know, because they'll just give their babies a bottle of formula or overnight somewhere, or they're just giving formula they go to sleep and they don't know. I also, for myself, remember not understanding that, and it's honestly so hard to get them to understand, because as a first time mom, I wasn't even thinking about this. This was at my 39 week appointment that she was like, Oh, if it didn't work, you could pump. I was like, okay, thank God. I ordered one. It was just so just so not a big thing. And I remember, I did take a birthing class, and she had like, one sentence about breastfeeding, and she was like, make sure you're drinking water. You're not going to have breast milk. That was her line. So it's sad, but, like, it takes a mom having a very difficult journey to then learn that something needs to be different later on. I have so many moms that come to me 568, months into their journey. I wish I found you sooner. Had I known things could have been different. And the truth is that it could have been different, but I always tell them, do not have regrets for the information that you did not know you needed at the time. Should you have another baby? I am not going anywhere. And that's kind of how I tell them, let it be. It's a wedding story. I'll tell at my son's wedding that he made me crazy. We'll leave it like Let him be. You know, nothing you could do about it. So okay, so just to recap your advice as far as when to start pumping, it depends if a mother is planning to go back to work, you recommend initiating pumping at least two weeks before going back to work, giving a try a couple of times. Make sure your baby could take a bottle. You. But if a mom is not going back to work, she does not have to pump. She can continue breastfeeding all day long, not worry about introducing a pump, assuming that she's cool with that. Meaning, if she wants to pump because she wants to go out on a date night or things like that, then for sure, then like whenever is needed. But there's no stress that you like you have to. You don't have to if things are going well. That's true advice. I got that I liked. Someone told me, If you could pump once a day, that buys you some freedom. Allows your partner to feed your baby, your husband to feed your baby. It allowed me some freedom to go to the gym, to leave my house, and I have to be a baby all the time, but it also allowed me to mostly be a breastfeeder. Yeah, I actually call that a reprieve pump. So I tell people, take a reprieve pump, take your pump, go in your room, lock the door, get a snack, open up your TV, sit back, relax. Don't see the baby like take a minute to yourself. I find some people really don't want to pump, and they would prefer to nurse, and I that's where I say absolutely, whatever works. But I totally agree with you that if you want to take a reprieve pump every day gives the baby a chance to practice the bottle. You will a chance to practice nursing. If that is what you want. I like the flexibility. It's fantastic. Yeah, we gotta laugh, right? And then, as far and the schedule goes, you recommend, especially in the beginning, pumping every three hours, if possible, and matching in a bottle. Yeah, nursing is just like whatever the baby needs is gonna end up being sometimes two, sometimes three. Pumping, I always say pumping is easier in the beginning, but nursing is easier in the long run, because in the beginning, that baby wants to nurse every hour, every two hours, for 45 minutes, and they fall asleep, and you're this and you're that, and you're tired, you don't know how much they ate. It's so exhausting. Versus the beginning, you just pump, you see how much the baby's eating. It's like so simple. So people often want to change the pumping, which, of course, I support anything, but I'll tell them, just so you know, in a couple of months, when nursing is like one of those easy situations where you do just a couple of times a day, put them on, they nurse, and you're done. That is when you're going to not want to be attached to the pump anymore, and you're not going to want to be cleaning all those pump parts and cleaning all those bottles and be strapped to that pump. You're going to want to just be able to nurse and be done. So everyone needs to do what works for them. But I always say, just keep that in mind, that it is a lot easier to pump the beginning, but I personally find that nursing is much easier in the long run. As someone that has done both, yes, I agree with that, and I think from my experience, I loved nursing. I found it a really special time. It allows you to bond with your baby. It ends up being a faster way to feed them. The temperature is correct. There's so many beautiful things about breastfeeding, but pumping allowed me to be a pediatrician. It allowed me to go to weddings with my husband and leave my kids at home. It allowed me to live my life and still continue to breastfeed? Yeah, it's best to both world situation. Yeah, it really helps and saves moms so much. The main thing is to know what you're doing, know how to work it, and understand things that pain is not normal. It should not hurt when you're pumping. You should not have blisters. Your nipples shouldn't be turning colors. You shouldn't be wincing. You shouldn't be tolerating it. These are all things that moms do all the time, and you shouldn't. It should be one of those things that you put on and yes, you have to deal with working in and things like that, but you should be able to just live your life. It should just be whatever it is. Like it's annoying to have to do it. You do it for the time that you need, but it shouldn't. It should not hurt. It should not be painful, anything of the sorts. Now I'm curious, for a mom who is, let's say she's near the end of her pregnancy, and she's looking for a pump to purchase, what should Moms be looking for when choosing a breast pump? Do you happen to have a personal favorite or a few favorites? Yeah, I always update on my website. I have a free video library on my website which has pump reviews, bra reviews, product reviews. It also has a bunch of videos about managing breast milk, which I had no idea about. So like how to freeze your milk, how to thaw your milk, all these different things regarding pumps, the main thing. And you can find my in depth video on my website about this as well, one with the pump.com where you have to have a primary pump. So not all pumps are created equal. Those pumps that get stuck inside your bra with no wires, no tubings, those are called a secondary or a wearable pump, and those can be really helpful for like 80 to 90% of moms. They are not as effective, and you are leaving milk behind. And I am sure in a couple of years from now that they will have a wearable pump that is going to be a prime going to be a primary they don't have it in the time that we are recording this podcast, but I am confident that that is next on the horizon. They can be lifesavers. I remember being stuck in traffic and so grateful to have a wearable pump in the car, just exactly yeah, like they're definitely going to have it, and they could be really helpful. And I tell moms, you want to have a wearable pump, if you can, in addition to a primary pump. So a primary pump, there are so many amazing options for primary pumps, but if you're going to get a secondary or wearable, just note that you should really only be using that one max two times a day, and the rest of the times you should be. Using a primary pump, and if you're nursing, nursing is your primary so the wearable can also still be used one or two times a day, but you need a primary, effective method of emptying, which is going to be either a primary pump or nursing effectively. And that's just because, just to recap what you're saying, you want to make sure, if you are depending heavily on the wearable it's not as good as extracting the milk, and so it's not ideal for the long correct. So I know exactly how much milk because I pump at the same time from my regular pump that I use every day. So I will test these other pumps, and I will see how much milk I get from those there. Again, I did this multiple days, but then I could see how much is left behind. Because if I normally get, let's say, five ounces combined, and this pump is only giving me two and a half. I just left that milk behind, which once in a while, I had no choice. I was running my son to the doctor or this or that, and I was just like, okay, it is what it is. But if you do that, day, day, day, day, your body is like, Oh, we only need two and a half ounces. And that's where the drama is going to start with your supply, which you don't want to deal with that tomorrow. Was I missing out in my pumping journey by not having a Bluetooth option? You were not because I want you to know that I really don't use it. I think it could be really helpful, but I always just go back to the bare basics. All these new things are amazing and they're fun, and the charging case like they're all great. And honestly, I think it's important as a working mom to understand like you, your job is required to give you a pump break. So I always say, show up to your job pumped this way once you like I used to just get to my classroom early so that I can pump before my students come this way, like you don't want to get there, and then you're already waiting for a pump break. So I would pump before they came. Then I would take a pump break, like usually a lot of the 30 minute pump break. So I would take my pump break. And once I'm by myself in a room, why am I using a wearable like, I'm just going to use my regular pump and get what I wanted, I would take advantage. And I would also, I always say I would always pump on my lunch break, even if it was technically too early, like if I had to pump three hours apart, but my lunch break was two hours later, I would still pump them, because if you have the opportunity to pump, then it, like resets the clock, so it always pump on my lunch break, and then I would probably do it either one more time at work or on the way home if you're exclusively pumping. A really big tip that I want to give is to try to pump, whether it's on your commute or, like, before your babysitter leaves, because having to come home say hi to your kids, and then having to sit down to pump is very frustrating. On both ends, your kids are like, Are you kidding me? You're like, Are you kidding me? So unless you're, if you're able to, let's say, like, have a time where, like, your your know, your toddler knows, like, Okay, this is when mommy comes home and like, you know this is our 30 minutes of screen time. I don't care how much screen time you guys do, but I'm just saying like, this is our time for to do screen time for to do screen time or whatever it is, but if you're able to not have pumping be the first thing that you do when you walk in the door, it will be a lot easier on you and your family. I'm getting flooded with memories of when I had my first child. I was a pediatric resident, and at the time, we would have to do 30 hour shifts every four days, and work days in between. But those 30 hour shifts were really difficult, because we would start at 6am and then we wouldn't get released till the next day, at noon. And I remember having a mental challenge, do I nurse my baby, who I'm not going to see for 30 hours before I go in, which required me to wake her up before I had to be there at 6am So oftentimes, I would sort of be grateful when she would wake up in the middle of the night so I could bond with her, and then I would get to work early pump before I started rounds at 6am and I just remember being faced with the decision of, is this worth it? You know, absolutely. As a new mom, you really want to be with your baby all the time, yeah. And then being faced with the decision to continue working at full speed, to be with your child, and boy, those were difficult days, because even as a pediatric resident, it should have been pediatric friendly. And I remember there was nowhere for me to really pump at the hospital, and I'd have to go to my car and fit in pumping. Is this worth it? Right? It was difficult. I always say that if you are going to breastfeed, whether that's pumping or nursing, you have to have this ridiculous intangible want to give your baby breast milk, because it is so difficult, and especially like when you're working so hard for something, and it's not necessarily working, and then you have to start triple feeding, you have to formula feed and pump and nurse and this and that. You have to really want it, and it's okay to not want it. To make this very clear, like, I have plenty of people, and it's funny. It's like, something that people will stop me in the street to tell me, which I always think is so funny, because, like, I don't know why they feel the need to say it to me, but they'll be like, no offense. But like, I don't pump, I don't do that. And I'm like, Girl, I literally don't care what you do, like, like, whatever. But when I talk to a mom and we are working through and I'm telling them all these annoying things that they have to do, and I always say, like, if you've had a session with me, you know, I'll be like, here are five ways to increase your milk supply. They are all really annoying, and you have the choice if you want to do them or. Not. And then I will tell them to them, they're, by the way, inside my ultimate pumping course, which I'll tell you guys about in a bit. But they there has to be some sort of intangible want and need to give your baby this breast milk to be able to go through that because it's so difficult. Like, why? Why'd you do it? I think you're totally right. Like, if I look at my kids now and I'll tell them how hard it was to breastfeed, they don't even remember that it happened. They don't remember anything about it. I don't remember. We remember, you know, myself, I wasn't breastfed. And I don't think anybody could look at me and say, Oh, for sure, that's a person that was never breastfed, exactly. And I definitely, I understand the benefits of it, but I also agree with you that if somebody opts to not do it, if they don't have that drive, or it's too much, or for whatever reason, they can't pump or can't breastfeed, I am the first to tell parents not to worry, because just feed your baby, love your baby. Ultimately, that's the most important, exactly. But yeah, it was without saying exactly. It goes without saying, and it's really the most important on both ends of Fed is best. Meaning, like, you can feed your baby formula and they will be totally fine, and you can work really hard to breastfeed, and that will also be totally fine. They're both incredible. I always say, like, I feel like sometimes when we say Fed is best, we're not dismissing either side that is best for on both ends that really, like, teach your kid to be a good person, teacher kid, you know, just to be nice, to be a kind, gentle soul. And other than that, like my husband was formula fed, and I'm like, he is so smart. Like, it's really nothing. I just always had this intangible want to do it, and thank God, because now I built a business out of it. But it's really okay either way. But you have to want it so bad for no reason at all. You know, I'm saying I think that is very well said. It's an intangible one. That's what it is. I remember my husband would look at me, you know, is this worth it to you? Because I would be up late pumping, he would remind me that it was okay if I stopped that the desire and the pursuit to pump and to breastfeed, really was from me. There was nobody else putting that pressure, yeah, and I remember being very stressed, gosh, talking to you, I'm just remembering how hard this was. Yeah, I remember my daughter would be at daycare, and the daycare would tell me, your daughter consumed 15 ounces of milk today. And then I would remember, wait a second, I had only pumped 11 ounces during the day. Oh, my goodness, I bet goodness, I better pump another four ounces to keep up with her demand, right? And then I remember just being up way too late, pumping when probably I should have been sleeping. Yeah, but I wish I'd had your advice, because I probably would have saved myself some heartache and some stress. It is so difficult, and if you want it and you want to work hard for it. Get the support. Get the information like, know what you're doing, don't, don't just chat GPT. Get the actual information that's real. Give yourself that support and just ultimately, make sure that your mental and emotional health is where it needs to be. But it's also okay to fight for something that's important to you. I say both of those equally as important. I wonder where it comes from, that intangible want. I wonder, if it's hormones, it's deep within our soul. Like, why do I want four kids? Like, where did that come from? Why do I want that? Like, am I crazy? Like, once a while I'll be like, no one is forcing me to have these children. No one's no one forced me to have four kids. That was a choice that I made, but it was an intangible one that I just always wanted a large family. Like, where does it come from? I don't know what know. My only regret in life is that I didn't have more. You know what? I'm okay. Maybe it's the pediatrician to me, but I think it's just, they're just the best. They're just the best. It's the best decision you'll make. Yes, I totally agree, even if, even as it's really hard, you know, so wonderful, absolutely best decision, even if we're deciding between breastfeeding or pumping or not at all, having is the best love now. So we talked about the workplace, every three hours is ideal, or taking the breaks when you can. What about at night? Do you have any feelings on whether or not it's worth it to wake up and pump in the middle of the night, especially if you're feeling that urge to pump. What's your sleeping or not? In the beginning, you want to go ahead and you want to wake up if you for the first 12 weeks, you really, really want to go ahead and wake up at least one time in middle of the night to pump. It makes a huge, huge difference in your supply. It can make a massive difference actually, in your supply. It's really important that you do that as you get later and further in your journey, like after 12 to 14 weeks, I Please sleep. Absolutely sleep. You definitely want to do that. But in the beginning, as hard as it is, it's really makes a massive difference in your milk supply. Yeah, and then, and then eventually, as you start to sleep more, the body will readjust. And the body readjust. You end up, yeah, you end up just making that in the morning. But in the beginning, it's really important to do that. And I say, like, I do a couple of tips. I'll tell moms, like, number one, like, keep some ear pods, like some headphones on your nightstand. Have a middle of the night show that you watch to make it. Customers are Well, personally, I would fall right back to sleep. I would set my pump up. I would put a pillow behind my head. I would lean back, fall asleep, and I would wake up when it stopped 30 minutes later. If you're doing that, make sure that your pump has an auto shut off. Majority of them do. You wouldn't want to wake up an hour or two later and still be pumping, but the pump, most of them have an auto shut off at 30 or 40 minutes. So I would just like pump, and then I would wake up when it was done. That was the best I think. That was with my fourth kid, because I was just so tired in the first with my first and second kid, I wasn't able to do that as much. So I would have middle of the night shows keep a water bottle on your stand. I would have a mini fridge. We bought a mini fridge with my second but it's a huge game changer to not have to go downstairs or even back to the kitchen. So I would keep, like, my pump parts in there. I would keep the milk there. I would keep the baby's bottles there. It made a massive difference just during those middle of the night feeds. And also, a good, really good piece of advice I like to give moms is, if you're able to, you can pump and feed the baby at the same time, like, set the baby up next to you safely, of course, like on a Bobby pillow or something like that, where you could feed them while you're pumping, so they're both getting done at the same time. And if that's too physically hard for you, you get out, wake up your partner to feed the baby while you're pumping, and then you can both go back to sleep at the same time, which is always nice. I agree with that. I have some moms that I've talked to my practice who experience sadness when they're pumping. I don't know if you've come across that, and what's your advice is, I've heard some people say, look at a picture of your baby when you're when you're pumping at work, or if you're feeling sad while pumping, it may help to look at a picture of your child. It might help with milk expression. Have you heard that? And what is your general advice to moms? Oh, I've heard it. Well, first of all, what you were referring to in the beginning of that the sadness is called D mare, dysphoric milk ejection, reflux, as if you don't have enough going on. Basically, it's that when you have that rush of hormones and you're let down, your milk is about to start, you get a rush of a certain emotion, whether it's sadness, depression, anxiety, and it's just what a mom needs in addition to everything else she's dealing with. Unfortunately, there actually is no cure for it. A lot of moms will stop pumping, because imagine you're feeling that rush of major anxiety or depression. You know, eight to 10 times a day can be really difficult. But moms will, like, take, you know, deep breathing exercises. For me, I say, put a TV show on, get into the show, and then start pumping. Like for me, and also bringing what you're saying by the picture of the baby. That is stressful to me. I don't know like looking at a picture of my baby to me, when I'm in postpartum is not relaxing. I don't know him yet. I'm not calm. What's going to make me feel calm and in that moment and be able to be, I guess, the most present or unpresent for my pumping, I literally like I would not sit down before having the remote. I would have my water, I would have a snack, and all my pillows. I put on the TV, I press play, and then I latch the baby, or then I put my pump parts on. I was doing nothing without the TV, as there is a distraction for me. I got through so many series when I was pumping and nursing like I watched so much TV. But honestly, I think it's just one of those things that people just say because they heard it personally. For me, I do not think that looking at pictures of your baby or smelling your baby, to me, that's stressful and honestly, super annoying. If it works for you, fantastic. It does not work for me at all. To me, distraction. Put a cover over your bottles so you're not watching the mail come out, watch a TV show, scroll on Instagram, whatever is making you feel not watching the clock, in my opinion, is what really helps moms the most. I love it. I love it. What about for thirst? Because pumping extracts from the mother thirsty. Anyone's gone through breastfeeding pumping, they know it makes you incredibly thirsty as you're breastfeeding, your nursing. What do you say? It's like, was it the Pavlov's like, nothing with the dog. Like, the second the pump comes out, I'm like, you know, I always, I always make sure to have a water bottle next to you 100% of the time, like, you are going to be so thirsty. I don't know if it's a learned thing, but it is real. So never in my life have I experienced thirst to such a degree as when I was breastfeeding, save your watermelon juice all day long. Yes, absolutely. I love that. So if it works for you, I thought it'd be fun to go through some lightning round questions with you. Yes, I love that. All right. You ready? Let's do it. Okay? One pumping myth that you wish would disappear, that you cannot combine your milk throughout the day. Extra stress for moms, combine all that milk up to five days in the fridge. Feel free Do not stress. Meaning, from one pumping session you can combine the milk from another pumping session. Yes, and breast milk last a lot longer than you think, and I'll leave it at that, because I can't, I can't meaning like I my breast milk in my house lasts longer than what they say online, is all I'll say. I don't know if it's a liability or we want to be careful with our recommendations. We don't want to make a wrong recommendation. But milk spoils, and if you Yeah, taste it or smell it, you can tell when it's no no longer good. You can. Smell it. And if it smells blank, I would say it smells blank. It smells like nothing. It's fine. Like, I don't think we've ever thrown out breast milk in this house unless it was like a thawed bag, or what time I found like in the back of the fridge, like two weeks old. Like, yes, that we're going to throw out. Other than that, it lasts. Err on the side of keeping that liquid gold exactly, best pumping tip for working moms, have the right equipment for yourself, because it will make a complete difference and keep an extra set of pump parts at work, there will be one day that you forget one part, and then you are screwed. Keep just it's like 20 bucks. You can get, like an off brand from Amazon. Take the box. You don't have to put it. Put it in the side. You will be happy. You will thank me. That day, I learned that the hard way, I had an electric pump, and there's that little white plastic bill, that's it. And I forgot, could not pump, and I ended up having to go to CVS and buy a manual pump just to get me through that day. So I exactly that's wonderful advice, great reminder. Yeah, how long should he How long should a mom expect each pump session to realistically, take honestly? And you're going to be shocked by this answer, 30 minutes. Because most people's sister and mother in law tell them that 10 to 15 minutes is fine. For some moms, it's fine. If it's not fine, make it 30 minutes, see what happens. Thank me. You'll come back to thank me. Trust me. What are your thoughts on moms making a breast milk stash? Is it really that important? Is it just there to make them feel secure? Does it really matter? What are your thoughts? Yeah, yeah. So I'm going to say this as quick lightning as I can. If you have it, I love it, meaning if you have it, so I not with my first, my first, I had to supplement with my second, third and fourth. Made an incredible amount of milk. It's not normal, but, you know, I'm a professional on it, so thankfully, I'm good at it. And now, since my current baby was like six months, I've only been pumping three times a day because I had a massive stash that I still have. So I only had to pump three times a day because he's getting one frozen bag, sometimes two frozen bags a day. So in that case, I love it with my first I didn't have it. So no, do not make yourself insane. You don't need to feed the freezer. You don't need to do that. If you have it. There is a use and there's a time for it. I think it's really nice for every mom, if they're able to have a couple of bags in the freezer for that rainy day. It's great if you can't, then forget it. Then you have formula for a rainy day and you'll be fine. And that's what I did. So that's really my hot take on stashes, meaning, like, we all just say, like, No, you don't need to get any if you're able to have and you have tons of milk, I love having it because I stopped pumping much quicker, and their breastfeeding journey, technically, is prolonged, but it's not necessary at all. I could be pumping four times a day. What am I doing? I could be I just don't want to. And I'm so glad you say this, because I think this is where comparison can be really stressful on moms, because I find that most moms make exactly what the baby needs, which makes sense. They make just what their baby needs, and nor do they need a lot of milk to make a huge stash. But I think this is where the online world can be difficult for moms, because they might see another mom that might have to get an extra frigerator to fill it with all that breast milk that they're making. That's not the norm, and it doesn't have to be. It. You don't need it. Meaning, like I did that, and I really saw benefited it, but only because it was easy for me. I say breast milk supply is based on what your schedule is, but it's also pure biology. Some of us are tall and some of us are short, and some of us are born with black hair, and some of us have blonde hair, and some of us have a lot of freaking milk ducts, and some of us do not, and there is nothing to do about it. Me and a mom can give birth the exact same minute, do everything exactly the same, and I might make double or triple what she's making because I have the breast milk ducts. That's just, that's just my genetics. So, like, you can't get taller, like, just whatever. Just wear the heels if you want to be taller. Figure something else out, like it don't make yourself crazy for something that's not possible you it's for some people, it is simply not possible. And I think doing that can take the blame off a little bit of them, and the guilt. Is it normal for one side to produce more milk than the other? Can I say? Can I can I can I say a profanity on here? Should I keep it very G, I say, everyone has a S, H, I, t, t, y, everyone has that titty and a moneymaker. Everyone has a bad boob and a good that's always what I say you have the golden child and the one that's just keeping up over here. I call it a stud and a dud. Yes, I spelled it in case your kids are on the car guys, but this way, just so you know, everyone has that. I think for some people, it evens out. For most people, it's one of them. Just hold it up the fort. For everyone, what I tell parents is, as long as combined together, you can make about an ounce an hour. You're in good shape. Right? Yeah, if you can feed your baby what they need, you're in good shape. Yeah, you were like, I don't know what you were gonna say here, but I always just say shitty. Titty at a moneymaker is a good time. Sorry for kids are in the car. Don't learn quick. There's a lot of things that people say affect milk supply, one, hydration to stress. Do you think that these factors really affect milk supply as much as people think it can? It definitely can, but I think that nothing affects it more than not having the right information. So that mom that's thinking it's coming from stress, or she's like, she's chugging what? I'll have a consult with a mom, and she's like, I'm not drinking enough, and she's chugging water. She has the wrong financials. She's not pumping correctly. She's pumping with the wrong pump. Like, yes. But also, let's make sure that everything else is actually working, because majority of the time it once. We fix those things, things will kind of just play through themselves. One thing that you wish moms would stop worrying about so many things, I think for me, this is just the hardest thing for me to deal with, with moms on their end, because I feel bad for them, is that a mom is having a really hard time breastfeeding, whether that's pumping or nursing, and she will go and she will Buy 100 items for like, hundreds of dollars, not knowing what to do, not knowing which of them work, instead of spending the money on the support, which will then not have them buying any of that and just getting the information, the information like I have currently on my desk right now, like seven different wearable pumps, and there's going To be seven more wearable pumps for the next round of reviews, because there's always going to be something newer and bigger and better coming out, because they're trying to market to breastfeeding moms, because they want your money. So focus on what it is that you have in your house. The main things that you need are the understandings of what you are doing. You need to understand that you are effectively pumping and nursing and emptying correctly and getting your baby the milk. You don't need all the latest gadgets. You just need to make sure that it's going smooth enough that you are not struggling day to day, that you're not at work being like, where's my bottle? Where's my this. You have to just have enough stuff to make it through, maybe a little bit extra just to make you happy, but as long as you know what you're doing, that is the main thing, so not to worry about all the other extras that you need, I would say is it would be one of my main things. For me, personally, as a working mom, it was really hard to figure out how to balance both. And I think pumping was a necessary part of my life, and it was hard. And I think having someone like you to give them the support that they need, I think, is really invaluable. So yeah, it's really nice to learn about your page. And I just think as a new mom, all you want to do, and this is biological, it makes sense, all you want to do is feed your baby, yeah, and so you're having trouble with your supply or pain with breastfeeding, or you have to go to work, or whatever the reason is, yeah, having that village, having some support to help make that process easier is incredibly valuable. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I really I just want to help moms. I just want moms to not go through what I went through. I just want moms to know that they're doing amazing. I want them to stop stressing. I want them to know that they deserve the information, they deserve the support to get through this journey. Because even though it's only technically usually about one year or six months to a year, year and a half of your baby's life, it feels like everything when you're going through it. And I want you to know that you're not alone and everything that you're going through, I've talked to 10 other moms that are also going through it, even though you see that you're the only one, you're not. I'm sure you've seen that also, where you have the same things, people saying the same things again and again. You know, they think they're the only ones, and you've seen it 100 times. It's true, right? You just you've seen it 100 times, but they think that they only want it. I wanted to know you're not alone. Yeah, it's true. I do think there is solace knowing that other people have been through before, and maybe we can lean on each other to advice and to make the process easier, correct? So you alluded to the fact that you have courses. You have recommendations on your website of things to buy. Tell listeners more about that. Where can they learn more from your work? Where can they connect with your community resources. Please share. Thank you. I am nothing if not subtle, so I always, I have no problem letting people know where they can find the information, because I want you to have access to have access to it. So my name is tamari. I'm at one with the pump on Instagram, tik, Tok, YouTube, Pinterest, all of the above, whatever's out. I'm on it at one with the pump. That's where you can find a lot of tons of just, you know, free information videos on my website, you could find that way. I also have a very in depth, incredible course, if I may say so myself, called The Ultimate pumping course, which gives you all the information as both a pumping or a nursing mom for everything that you need. And I made you as a discount code, ask Dr Jessica for 20% off if you want it so you can use that at any time. We also do one to one consults, and we are here to support you. Just please note that you are not alone. This is no joke. This is really hard. Hard, and there's nothing harder than doing it alone. So you don't have to We also, we have a membership where we meet two times a month, where we all just kind of chat and hang out. You don't have to be alone. There's a community and a squad behind you, and we are here for that. I'm leading the pack, and I've got you, so come on over to over the pump so we can help you, make you feel better about everything going on. I love it. I'll say it again. I wish I'd known about you and had you in my life when when my kids fall. I'm so grateful to know about you now and to know that new moms can find you and reach out to you if they need you. And thank you so much. I will put all of your information in the show notes. And thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for having me. Nice to meet you. Hi everybody, and welcome back to your child. Is normal. I'm your host. Dr Jessica Hochman, so today we're talking about pumping, which is something that so many moms go through. Pumping can be incredibly helpful. It gives moms flexibility. It can make breastfeeding possible, but it can also be really challenging, time consuming and sometimes just frustrating. I'm joined today by tamari. She's also known as the one with the I'm joined today by I'm joined today by Tamari Jacob, also known as one with the pump, who's become I'm joined today by Tamari Jacob, also I'm joined today by Tamari Jacob, also known as one with the pump, and she's become such a great resource. Who has become such a great resource for moms navigating this, who has become, who has become such a great resource for moms navigating this, who has become such a great resource for moms navigating this, she shares really practical advice, and she brings a sense of humor to something that can otherwise feel really stressful. We talk about when to start pumping, how often to do it. We talk about things like when to start pumping, how often to do it, how to make it, how to make it work in real life, and also how to take some of the guilt at a feeding, and also how to take some of the guilt out of feeding decisions. This is a really reassuring and helpful conversation, especially for new moms. And I think you'll get this is a this is a really, this is a really re this is a really reassuring, helpful conversation, especially for new moms. And if you enjoy this episode, I'd be so grateful if you took a moment, and if you're enjoying this podcast, I'd be so grateful if you took a moment to leave a five star review for your child, and if you're enjoying this podcast, I'd be so grateful if you took a moment, and if you're enjoying your child is normal. I'd be so grateful if you took a moment to leave a five star review. It really helps more parents find the podcast. Now on to my conversation with Tamari Jacob. Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of your child is normal. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review, wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow.