Ep 233: Why Routines Matter (Without Being Rigid) — with Jessica Irwin, (Rooted in Routine)

Parents hear it all the time: kids need routine.
But what does that actually mean—and how do you make it work in real life without becoming overly rigid?

In this episode, we are joined by pediatric occupational therapist Jessica Irwin, founder of Rooted in Routine, to talk about how simple, flexible routines can make a big difference for kids—and parents.

We discuss:

•  Why routines help kids feel safer, calmer, and less anxious 
•  The 5 key anchor points every family can focus on (and why it doesn’t have to be perfect) 
•  How to balance structure and connection—especially during busy evenings 
•  Practical strategies for smoother mornings, after-school transitions, and bedtime 
•  Why sleep is one of the most important foundations for child health 
•  Common mistakes parents make (and how to avoid them) 
•  A refreshing take on “gentle parenting,” boundaries, and who’s really in charge 

We also dive into potty training, screen time, and how tiny “30-second routines” can strengthen connection in your family.

This episode is full of realistic, doable advice—and a reminder that you’re probably doing better than you think.

Find Jessica Irwin on Instagram: @rootedinroutine. Find her potty training content: @pottybyrooted 

Your Child is Normal is the trusted podcast for parents, pediatricians, and child health experts who want smart, nuanced conversations about raising healthy, resilient kids. Hosted by Dr. Jessica Hochman — a board-certified practicing pediatrician — the show combines evidence-based medicine, expert interviews, and real-world parenting advice to help listeners navigate everything from sleep struggles to mental health, nutrition, screen time, and more.

Follow Dr Jessica Hochman:
Instagram: @AskDrJessica and Tiktok @askdrjessica
YouTube channel: Ask Dr Jessica

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Hi everybody. Welcome back to your child is normal. I'm your host, Dr Jessica Hochman, so today we're talking all about routines, what they actually mean, why they matter so much for kids, and how to make them work in real life. I'm joined by Jessica Irwin, a pediatric occupational therapist and founder of rooted in routine. What I personally love about Jessica's approach is that she focuses on flexible, realistic routines that support both kids and parents without making you feel like you need to be perfectly on schedule. In this conversation, we talk about the science behind routines and simple ways to make daily life feel calmer and more predictable. We even get into how routines can help with some of the trickiest parts of parenting, like potty training. And if you're enjoying this podcast, I'd really appreciate you taking a moment to leave a five star review. It really helps the show reach more parents. And if you're not already, come follow along on Instagram at ask Dr Jessica for more everyday parenting insights rooted in routines. Jessica Erwin, thank you so much for being here today. I'm so looking forward to talking with you and learning from you. Yeah, thanks for having me. So I'm curious what made you so passionate about routines? Yes, good question. So my background is in pediatric occupational therapy, and when I got out of OT school, I decided to go into early intervention and pediatric home health care, and that's when a therapist goes into a family's home and really works with the child in their home, with their family around. And that was great, because I really got an inside glimpse at hundreds of different families homes, and learned so much. And really a light bulb moment went off at that point in my career, because I was like as a professional giving advice and trying to help this parent problem solve different strategies with their child. The best way we can do that is embed things into their routine, because essentially, that means they're doing it every single day, consistently, and that's what I became really passionate about. Learning more about this, combined with the fact that there's just so much research supporting all of the benefits of a routine based lifestyle for young children and all the nerdy stuff about brains, which we can get into, but I decided at one point I want to help more parents than the ones I can see in person, and that's when I started my online business. And did you see a big difference between families that had a routine and families that didn't have a routine? Yes, 100% I saw lots of different types of families, right? And this kind of merges into different cultures and styles of parenting, but the children whose parents followed some sort of consistent routine and were not scared to be consistent in their responses to their child's like demands and requests were the ones who longer term, were having an easier time, and kids are naturally going To push back on routine and on boundaries, but ultimately, they don't actually want it to be a free for all, and that's what I saw every day. It's true. My sister's a school psychologist, and she frequently says to me that kids crave routine, and she's so good at it. Her kids go to bed at the same time every night. They're really good at getting ready in the morning, and so she really believes in the power of routine, and I can see that in her family. It works really well and makes a big impact. Yeah, now I have to say, as a parent, personally, I feel like we're okay on routines. I'd give us a b, b minus, and I think, if I'm going to be totally honest, I have a hard time specifically with bedtime, because I'm not around my kids a lot during the day, at night time, I really want to use that time to connect with them and to bond with them, and I have trouble laying down the law and being really strict in the evening, because I don't want that to be what my kids think of me as, just being a strict parent all the time. So for a parent like myself who hears the word routine and it can make me feel a little overwhelmed. What advice would you give to someone like myself? Yeah, that's a good question. And I think, first of all, I want to say that, like overall, it's not an all or nothing thing, right? So I think, and as parents, I think we get stuck in these if this has to be perfect or it's not even worth doing it. And so it's the same with following a routine. And I also think we tend to over complicate it and think, oh my gosh, we have to follow this perfect schedule. That's really not how it works. We can be flexible and also still have anchors of routines throughout the day. So for you personally, because I work with a lot of working families, like families who both parents work and the that evening, bedtime, time of the day, is often a time crunch, and it's if there's a lot to fit in. And I hear this a lot, so if that's the time of day where you're like, you know what? I need to be a little more flexible. I want more time with them, like, I want to enjoy this time. I think that is great. Connecting is just as important. But then think about, okay, well, are there other areas of the day that feel a little bit more structured, or I have boundaries around it doesn't have to be all or nothing. And there's really, like five main areas of the day that I teach in my method, bedtime is only one of them. So it's like, if you got others, then it's okay, too. All right, great. And just to continue on that, what are the other four? Yeah, it's. Super basic, but I think it's helpful, because it really breaks it down for parents, and you're going to be like, Oh, I'm doing way better than I think so the other four are mornings, right? Just having a general like, flow to the morning meals and eating, like overall, just are you providing predictable times of day where you eat, or you offer food and then sleep? And bedtime is one. The other two are getting outside in some sort of regularity, obviously, that might look different from a weekday or a school day versus a weekend or a home day, and then play finding pockets in the day where we're focused on both engaged play and also independent, loosely supervised. So those are the five you mentioned that from a child development perspective, there's a lot of science that backs up the benefit of routines. Can you explain that a little bit more? Why? Why do routines matter so much for children? Yeah, definitely. So ultimately, when we say routine, what we really mean, first of all, doesn't mean it's a schedule, like we're following a perfect daily schedule, but what it really means is that there's predictability to like the way parts of the day flow. And what we know is that our brains, really, every brain, even though there's a spectrum of this, really craves that patterns and craves predictability. And for young children, it actually helps them feel like more stable and more safe, like, from a brain science perspective, so when just parts of the day are fairly consistent, our children's brains feel safer and less of a stress response. And I get pushed back on that because a lot of parents are like, Okay, but why is my kid throwing a fit when I'm trying to enforce a routine or enforce a boundary. But long term, we know that consistency and routine based day and week and life leads to more positive outcomes. I do really believe that kids appreciate knowing what's coming next. Yes, they like knowing the routine of getting to school, what the school day is going to be like, who's going to pick them up, what happens after school, what the dinner routine is like. I do completely find that kids are more regulated. They're less anxious. They're calmer when they know when they know what to expect, and I think that's part of why, when the new school year starts, kids are understandably anxious. They don't know what the routine is going to be like. They don't be like. They don't know what their teachers are going to be like, yet they don't know what the homework is going to be like, what their friends are going to be like, who's in their classroom. So I do think for human beings, when anything is new and a little unpredictable, it can feel a little unsettling, a little anxiety provoking. That's normal. Yeah, totally. And those are all just signs that point to the fact that big changes or unpredictable seasons really do affect them. It's not like a bad thing. We can't shield them from that, but it's just how it is. If someone's listening right now and they want to get started, they want to improve the routine in their family life, where would be a good place to start? What's one routine that they could build upon first? Yeah, I get this question a lot. I think it really depends. But the kind of starting point that I would give you is, take a moment first and just think to yourself, is there a a part of the day that typically tends to feel like really stressful for you or for your child and or, or for your family, like in general, and you feel like there could be a little more structure there start with that one. Because I think if you're like, oh, I need to overhaul the whole day, that's like, way too overwhelming, and you don't need to do that, and you're probably doing better than you think. But just like, pick one tiny part of the day, I will say two popular ones that come up a lot are like that after school rush, kind of like entering the home after school and like getting yourself settled, getting your child settled. So that can be one that might be helpful to have a little more structure and guidance around. And then the other one you already mentioned, but it's like the bedtime or like the after dinner, like evening into bedtime, but just pick one and start small. Don't overwhelm yourself with trying to overhaul everything. I think that's fantastic advice and really realistic, because small changes do make a big difference, and it's more likely to happen, yeah, exactly. And then you can be like, Oh, I got a win, and now I can move on to the next so for me, as I mentioned, the bedtime routine definitely has been the trickiest area that I know we need work on. If you were to ask my kids what their bedtime is, we don't really have an exact bedtime. We have a rough idea when we like them to go to sleep, but there's not a real bedtime. And I remember at the beginning of my child's school year, she's in the fourth grade, the principal left a message and said, everybody in elementary school, your bedtime is 830 bedtime is 830 that's how your brain is going to work best the next day. That's how you're going to be prepared to learn. I want everybody to go to bed at 830 and my fourth grader really took that advice to heart. And all year long, she's been saying, I need to go to bed. Mr. Martinez says my bedtime is 830 Yeah. And I was actually really pleased with this, because I could see from that that she really wanted structure. She really wanted a bedtime. She didn't want a parent saying, Don't worry, you can stay up late. No big deal in our house, they want to know when it's time to go to sleep. Yeah, yeah. That's really interesting. And obviously I think there's can be a little more variability from family to family, but the way that modern day life is structured, and if your children attend like regular days of school, like they have to wake up a little earlier, so you gotta backtrack, right? And so 830 would be a reasonable recommended time. Yes, next time I see him off to thank him. But just saying that little piece of advice, it honestly made a difference. My daughter has an anchor where she works around that bedtime and thinks about how to get herself to sleep so she can be in bed by that time. So I can say that one little piece of advice made a huge difference. Right now, you mentioned one common question is after school, what would a sample routine look like when kids get home from school? Yeah. So obviously, it kind of depends on your child's age, or what kind of combination of ages you might have in your family. And obviously, if you have after school activities you're trying to get to or like, what that looks like. But the two kind of like main areas I recommend for after school, first one is super basic, but I think a lot of parents like skip it is we actually need to teach and practice the really basic things of, what do we do right when we get home, right when we walk in the door from school? What do we do with our shoes? What do we do with our backpacks? Where do we put our stuff? Do you want your child to use the bathroom and wash their hands? Like basic hygiene and like organization? If you don't actually teach them what to do and show them what to do. You're unless you have a very type A like hyper organized child, you're that stuff's probably going to go everywhere and you're not going to know. It's going to be really stressful for you. So I think the first thing is just show them okay when you walk in the door from school, this is what we're going to do with our shoes. Here's where you put them. Take them off. Here's where you put your jacket. Here's where I want you to put your backpack. Your backpack. And you can even like role play through it. Like a lot of times, young children find it really fun to pretend that it's after school time on the weekend or when it's not. So make it a game and just play. So that's the first thing, just getting those basics done with so that you know they know what to do, and you're all just going with that flow. The second thing is that most kids are going to do much better if you feed them and let them move a little bit or decompress. That can look a couple different ways, but we don't want to jump into you have to do this. You have to do your homework. You have to do this task. Girl, gotta go clean your room, right? Like putting more demands on them when they've pretty much been told what to do all day long, and they're usually starving. So a combination of organizing all of those things is my typical recommendation for after school, depending on the age. I think that's great, because if you get used to taking your shoes off, washing your hands, having a bite, putting your dish in the sink, if it becomes second nature, then I can think of so many benefits. One, being more organized. You don't lose things. Your life feels less chaotic. And then two, I'm thinking, someday they're going to be a roommate for somebody down the line in college, in marriage, being around somebody with routine that is organized. It's a really positive attribute. Yeah, totally. And I also will add to that one thing we haven't mentioned yet is that there's so many benefits of this for the parent too, not just for the child, because as the parent, if you get into this rhythm and these habits, it's more work upfront, I'll give you that. But once you get into the rhythm and the habit of it, it's way less work for you, and so then you're not constantly nagging them, or constantly on them, or even that decision fatigue of, oh, what should we do next? So it lightens a lot of the load for everyone, but putting in the work up front is important. That makes total sense. Parents love also routine. I talked to so many parents who are so happy to know that come 839, o'clock, the kids will be asleep, and they'll have time to themselves, time to relax, time to be without their children. They know what to be or to I agree that it's just as beneficial for parents, yeah, and some people really tend to that more than others, too. I Yeah. I agree with that. And then along those lines, speaking of bedtime, are there any common mistakes, or any advice that you have for parents, common pitfalls that you see to help make the nighttime routine easier for bedtime specifically? So one thing that I this is more, I would say, geared towards the younger, like toddler age range or even preschool age range. But I think people push back on me with this one a lot, but I think that a lot of parents are putting their kids to bed too late, and I the reason is because maybe it's become so hard and so long and drawn out, and it's just this like battle, and so it takes a long time to get them to sleep. But what when kids go to bed too late, they often actually wake up earlier, so then they're over. All getting way less sleep than they really need to. And I think also, parents sometimes are confused about what looking tired looks like for a young child. And so all that to say, kids need a lot of sleep. And so I'm, like, a huge proponent of sleep. Sleep is just like a value we have in our home, so we will not all the time, but sometimes we say no to plans, because it's like, no we our bedtime is earlier than that, like we're not going to make it. Obviously, there's exceptions, but I think that you have to remember that, like sleep is one of the most, if not the most important foundation of health. I'm sure you agree. You agree, just as important as what you eat, right and exercise. And so I think a lot of times, we fall into habits of not prioritizing it enough well. And I actually think that sleep is a foundation. So when you talk about eat and you talk about exercise, it's pretty well studied that make better food choices. You're a better exerciser when you're well, right, right. Right? So setting a foundation for quality sleep for your kids and yourself is going to be of tremendous value. Yeah, and I teach parents how to do this. You can do this from literally the newborn stage. I'm not one of those people who are like, you have to sleep train starting at this number of weeks. You have to do it this way. But there's like, this middle ground that I think is often lost when we talk about sleep, especially for babies and toddlers, it's all or nothing, right? Like you're either that strict parent who's like sleep training from day one, or you're like a co sleeping go with the flow. And I actually would define most people in the middle. And there are lots of other there's ways to work towards a solid Sleep Foundation without having to go down the rabbit hole of either of those options, a lot. What I really appreciate about your messaging, honestly, is I find there tends to be different camps of parents. One is the parent that's super rigid. I hate to say it, but a little on the inflexible side with regards to the routines. And when I look at families like that, it doesn't look enviable to me. I don't want to be so strict and so rigid, because I do want to save space for trying new things, for going out with my kids, for trying new experiences. And there's also the families that are that don't have any routine. They're almost too flexible. And so, yeah, yeah, I think what's nice about your messaging when I'm gathering is that you're saving space for both. You're talking about nuance, and we can be flexible, but we can also prioritize some basic structure for the good of our family. Yeah, exactly. And I think I will say, as someone who talks about this stuff online, and I've been in online space for a while now, and I'm sure you agree if you're in the online space, it's like Nuance is often lost, but I'm really hopeful it's like finally coming back, like, I feel like people are finally maybe, like, realizing that it's there's not just two opposite ways to do things. Like, with every topic, when it comes to parenting, there's a lot of gray middle ground area. And that's, that's usually what the evidence points towards, in terms of, like, best practice is that middle ground? So yeah, that's what I'm that's my message, yes. Because with my kids, for example, we've gone on trips when they were younger where we've had to think about time changes. And of course, that affects our sleep. And sometimes it crosses your mind, should we not do this trip? Because it's going to be so hard on them, it's going to be it's going to throw off the routine. And yes, it is more challenging, of course, but I think in the end, I hold on to that it's important to make memories with your kids as well. So I appreciate the nuance, because, of course, I understand the value in routine, but I also completely agree that we have to hold space for flexibility. Yeah, totally. And one question that comes up that, or this is talked about a lot, is, especially lately, I think, is like the whole kind of parenting approach of some people might call it gentle parenting, but other people call it more like following your kids leads, or letting them, valuing them as human beings, and letting them have a say, and all of that is really important. But I think that it the messaging has gotten mixed, because I see that there are families who've fallen down that kind of like rabbit hole in that path, as you say, like they're on that one side where it's like they don't really have a lot of structure, and they and what often comes with that is you, not only do they not have a lot of structure, but it turns into their kids, who are often young, are calling the shots. And I don't believe that that's like a healthy way to to run your home, right? Like adults should be the one in charge, and you should be making decisions for your kids every day. But that comes into play as well, but the way you do it doesn't have to be like the super strict old school discipline either. It's so interesting that saying just that can feel controversial, right? Parenting is a good thing to do that actually making the decisions for your children is the preferred method, right? But it's true. Like, I get so many parents, and they'll be talking about like a two year old or something like very young, and they'll say, my kid doesn't want to sleep in his bed, or my kid doesn't want to eat dinner. And listen, one of my philosophies, too, is you can't force a child to do something you. Can't force them to fall asleep, you can't force them to eat, but you can set up the structure and expectations and routines to basically highly promote the likelihood that they're going to do those things or work towards them. So just because your kid doesn't want to do it doesn't mean it's not best for them and you. And then something else that comes up that I think gets in the way a lot of a good, healthy routine for families? Is everybody so busy now, you know, there's so many sports, so many activities, there's a lot of chaos, especially families that have multiple kids. So how can we make routine sustainable for families that have a lot going on? Yeah, and I work with lots of different types of families, and I feel like this is a subset of certain kind of like cultures or like areas of the country, I feel like tend to swing this way more than others, but yeah, there's definitely a lot of pressure these days for like kids to be in activities. And I first want to say I don't think that it's all good or all bad, like I do think that some families like being busy, and they want to be busy, and their kids thrive doing a lot of things. Other families maybe they try to do that and they realize this is just so stressful, it's too much. So I think first of all, take a very individualized approach with all that. But I think there's still ways to have many these tiny, like mini touch points of routines, even if you're out of the house a lot, or you're like, driving your kid around all afternoon and evening to things just because you're out of the home a lot, there's still going to be moments throughout the day when you are home. So just remember that these can be, like, really tiny 32nd things. And if you come back to those anchors, like those basics that I mentioned at the beginning, like that's going to have a lot of positive impact. And I'm curious, when you say 32nd things, what are the examples well, so I like to think of those as little rituals. But let's say your child's older and you don't have to do this drawn out bedtime routine anymore, because, like, they're old enough to easily put them to sleep. You could still have quick little song or, like, a quick little phrase you say to them every single night right before they put themselves to sleep. I think that's a really nice point of connection. You could even do that with a teenager, honestly, so that would take 30 seconds or less. Same thing in the morning, you could have a little morning touch point, I know, with my son, who's five and a half, he's young still, but every morning He now gets himself up and ready, which is changed my life. But we have this like little like morning ritual where he, like, runs into my arms, and I give him this, like, specific type of hug, and then I, like, say the same phrase. So it's just anything where you repeat and you're doing it consistently at the same point of day, that's considered a routine, even though it doesn't look like this multi layered list. I love that, because you probably love it, he probably loves it, and it's something that keeps you guys connected, yeah? And it feels very doable. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I love doing it. I like, look forward to it, and it literally takes probably 15 seconds. I love it. You're reminding me, there's some songs I used to sing to my kids before bed that didn't take very long. They're probably less than a minute. I should go back to doing it. Yeah. I was just speaking with the parent whose kids are a little older, like later Elementary and, like, middle school, and she was saying she still sings one of them for one of them, same songs she's saying to them as a baby. And as we're talking about before, there's little ways we can really keep that secure attachment and closeness even as they get older and we don't have all the other stuff we're doing physically with them. You know, I feel so lucky because I'm 45 years old and my parents still live in the same house that I grew up in, and I know that this, this is a very rare situation, but I have to admit that I still feel so secure that I can go back to their house and visit my old room and open up the refrigerator and I know what's there, and I know my parents are And personally, I find it interesting how much I still appreciate that I can go back to my childhood home? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I pivot a little bit because I think this will help a lot of families. You mentioned that you now started a potty training routine. I'd love to talk a little bit more about that and hear about what you're doing. Yeah, sure. So potty training is a sub specialty of mine, so I teach parents about potty training, and I have a method that I'm in the middle of kind of revamping and creating, but as you can probably guess, it is based in routines, and I'm a big believer in exposing young children to the bathroom and to the toilet and building it into the day way before you're ever officially potty training, because what we know is that, just like we've been saying this whole time, new things transitions are they can cause anxiety, and it's really normal for kids to be scared of the something new. So I found that potty is no exception, right? So introducing them young and just making it like no pressure, no big deal. But here's a little potty. You can go sit at it. You can go you can go play on it. Go put your stuffies on it. Way before you're basically expecting them to use it is one of the best ways to set them up for success. I completely agree. I think if you can demystify all aspects of the bathroom, a big one not to forget is flushing, because a lot of kids. Get scared of that flush noise. But I think if you show them all aspects of using the restroom right out the gate and make it a little bit fun, add some stickers in the room, put some bubbles in there, make it a fun place to be. The kids want to do it, yeah, and if you can make it accessible for them, if you can provide a potty on the ground, make it easy for them to try. Should they want to? Most likely, you'll be in for some success. Yeah, I do think potty training is really overwhelming and, like, really stressful for a lot of parents. And listen, I'll say I'm literally in the middle right now of potty training my youngest. And even though I teach about it, there are some days where I'm like, Oh, this is driving me crazy. How old is your youngest? He's like, two and three quarters. Yeah, potty training is interesting, because we know that the odds are incredibly in your favor that they're going to get there. It's just a question when. And I find that for kids, we want them to be also self motivated. So if you have a child that doesn't mind being in poop, it's going to be really hard to get them motivated to potty train, but at some point, what I always tell parents is, at some point they will mind. At some point, Everybody minds being in poop or a wet diaper. Yeah, that's so true. And I think it's also normal for it not to be like a totally linear, smooth process. You know? I completely agree. So that's interesting. So is it a course, or what will you be offering to families to help with potty training? So I previously was doing one month intensive where I would help parents potty train. I love doing those. I ran those for the last three ish years, but I'm shifting everything into a self paced program where you can join anytime, you can start anytime, and it it will walk you through very, very beginning, like, I'm in the prep phase, putting the little potty out, seeing how it goes all the way to, like, troubleshooting longer term issues that are are arising, like, won't poop in the potty, or holding it in all day, or having accidents everywhere. Has to go to preschool, like that kind of thing. So I'm hoping to launch this summer. What I personally love about potty training courses is that the odds are it's going to be successful, that it's going to come out okay, in the end. That's intense. Yeah, that's funny. That helps me right now, honestly, personally, because I was having a spiral last night about my own kid. You know, I have three kids, and one of my kids took longer to potty train. I'm not going to name names, but I have two girls and a boy, and so, as we know, boys tend to be later than girls, so I think it was all expected. But at the same time, two of my kids, it was a pretty smooth experience. And for one of my kids, it took longer we had to troubleshoot. And I do think, as a pediatrician, I'm glad that I had that experience, so I can relate to families that have some bumps in the road. Yeah, definitely, because it can take longer, but eventually, eventually we get there, I know I'm just thinking when he's five, he hopefully by five, look at it down. And if he doesn't, it's okay. He will, yeah, worst thing that happens when people ask me questions or they're like, nervous about a topic, sometimes I push back and give them a little tough love and say, what's the worst that'll happen? That'll happen? Or what's the worst case scenario if you try this or don't do that? Yeah, I have to say I know that I have a bias as a pediatrician, because I see a lot of families where the boot camp methods don't work, or those three day methods don't work. So I push me personally. I don't like really pressuring kids. I like them to come to it on their own, and I agree with your method, that the best thing we could do for kids is just to show them how it works. Show them what to expect, show them the process. This is what we do, always ending with washing your hands. But this is the routine. And I think if kids become familiar when they're physiologically ready, when their body's ready for it, and when they're self motivated, it's going to happen. Yeah, for sure, you're going to get there. You know it alright. So follow rooted in routine and keep a lookout for the potty training. What should they look for? Where should they find it? So my regular Instagram, like my rooted in routine, is just at rooted in routine, but my new potty program, kind of side topic is potty by rooted. If you want to follow me there, that's where I'm going to be posting, just like all my potty training tips and ideas and strategies so you can follow me there. So for anybody who this is resonating with you, you want some tips and tricks and advice on how to potty train, please check out potty by rooted. Yes, you got it potty by rooted. Okay, check out potty by rooted. I'll link it okay. So those little touch points, I think, can make good memories, make kids feel more secure. It's definitely appreciated advice. All right, so I would love to end if it's okay with you with some rapid fire questions. Just give me the first thoughts that come to your mind, and we'll see how it goes. Okay, all right, in your opinion, the most important routine that parents can do probably sleep like consistent sleep schedule. I know, I know people are going to not like that. It's true. It's true. I think if you get pushback from people. Well, it's because it's hard to do, but it's true. Yeah, one thing to stop doing, trying to over explain your reasoning behind why you're trying to set a boundary. So we can just say no, yeah, or just a quick, brief explanation. But especially for the younger ones, you don't need to get in like a back and forth rational argument. They're not rational beings. That's a good reminder. One thing that parents should start doing this is like a start not do something. Okay? Start limiting tablet time, or get rid of it completely. That's another dicey I think the same rationale that you said about parents not liking the sleep advice, the same thing goes for tablets. We know that it's best for them to not have tablets, but it's hard. It's hard. It's hard to take it away, but I think we all know it's better for our kids to be on less screens. Yeah. And I also want to give you, like, a little positive push. The more you do it, and then the more kind of, like boundaries you do set, the easier it will get. I think you get overwhelmed thinking, like, how am I going to take it away? Because we're so used to it, right? I will say it's the hardest part is like that first step, and then it gets easier. It's a good reminder. Thank you. What is the biggest myth about routines that the most important part of them is like the time on the clock? Interesting? Can you elaborate on that? Yeah, I think so. Parents will get stuck up on the say, well, we don't have a bedtime routine because my kid goes to bed at to bed at eight one night and then 930 the next. But that's actually not what a routine is. If you do the same steps before you put them to bed every night, then you have a routine. You're just doing it at a different time. And that doesn't mean that it's not routine. That's an example. Good point. Your favorite parenting mantra, okay, we kind of already mentioned this a little bit, but I like to remind parents that you're the adult. And sometimes I say that to myself, I'm like, walking around with my toddler, I'm like, I'm the adult. You know what I mean? No, I appreciate that. I'm thinking I'm parenting to teenagers now, and I think that's a fantastic reminder. Thank you for that. I'm not in that stage that's personally and I can only imagine, like, how difficult it can be in some ways. But yeah, I think that goes for all ages, you know, because you're still the adult, even if your child's 19, and then I'm, I'd love for you to share. Maybe there's an example of a family where you implemented a simple routine and it really made a difference for them? Yeah, well, so I have a membership as well, and it's for parents of babies, toddlers and really up to, like, early elementary age who value routines and really want, like, that community aspect of parenting with other parents who have similar values and who also value routine and also want to have one place to go to with questions and sleep comes up a lot in that community. And there was a mom who joined about a year ago, and at the time, her son was like, two and a half ish, and we've talked about this topic, but bedtime was taking hours, like literally hours every night, and he wasn't falling asleep until probably 10 or 11, and then waking up at like 6am for daycare. So that was why she joined and we went head first. We dove into it. We really nailed the routine. We changed how she was responding to certain things. We changed the structure and the boundaries. And after about a month, he was falling asleep by himself a way more reasonable hour, and she was like, I'm not only so happy for my son, because I know he's actually sleeping the amount he needs to sleep, but her life changed because she actually, as you said, had time with her husband in the evening, and like, the whole, like, stress level of their home changed, and I was just so happy for her, because she was crying tears of happiness after that, I love it. You're really making a difference. Thank you. Yeah, it's hard to remember on social media, but you know, when you actually work with people, I find it so interesting how certain things we have to tiptoe around, saying, like parents need to parent or sleep is important. That's true testament in the world of social media. Oh, well. So I just want to reiterate, I really appreciate how you explain that routines don't have to be perfect. They just have to be predictable enough to help kids feel safe and capable. Yeah, exactly. And I think if you're listening to this podcast, I guarantee you're probably doing a better job than you think you are to begin with. I like that reminder. Thank you. Yeah, definitely. I think we all do self doubt, so I appreciate hearing that any last, final, closing words of wisdom that you'd like to share, I think, just Don't over complicate it and remember that like you get to decide. What is best for your child? I think we get super myself included. Again, with social media, we get super clouded in what do we think is the best? Quote, unquote, but yeah, just drop into yourself and know that you can make a choice. Maybe it's different than your friend or your neighbor or your family member, and that's okay. And I'm going to make this challenge for myself, and so I'm going to put it out there for anybody listening. I love the idea of small touch points, because I feel like that's realistic, doable, and can make a big difference. Yeah, totally. Well, thank you for coming on the podcast. I really enjoyed our conversation, and I'll make sure and link all of the ways to follow you in the show notes below. Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of your child is normal. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review, wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow. You can also.