Reinventing the Backend: Jim Devos Debuts VRWorks

In this episode, we are joined by Jim DeVos, industry veteran, former co-owner of Best Beach Getaways, for the first public reveal of VR Works — the backend system he spent years building to fix the operational pain points he couldn’t ignore.

Jim breaks down how VR Works evolved from an internal solution into a fully integrated platform, how it nearly doubled their profit, and why an operator-first mindset shaped every design decision. He also explains the onboarding and pricing philosophy behind VR Works, and why he believes now is the right moment to introduce it to the wider industry.

If you’re curious how seasoned operators who have lived every operational pain point design systems that make teams faster, owners happier, and scaling far less chaotic, this conversation is a must listen.

We Discuss:

1️⃣ The operational challenges that sparked VR Works

2️⃣ How building internally led to faster, clearer workflows

3️⃣ The specific efficiencies that nearly doubled their net profit

4️⃣ Why an operator-first mindset shaped every design choice

5️⃣ Reducing migration pain through smarter data import and onboarding

6️⃣ Why he’s introducing VR Works now

7️⃣  Updates on Swanky Vacay and his continued operator journey

Connect with Jim:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jim-devos-35254912/ 

VRWorks: https://www.linkedin.com/company/vrworks-llc/ 

Get 20% off any yearly or bi-yearly Lodgify plan, plus free personalized onboarding (a $3,000 value).

👉 Use code AAA20 at checkout. Offer valid until December 31, 2025.

Considering an exit strategy?

Discover how Nocturne Luxury Villas helps vacation rental founders protect their legacy while unlocking new opportunities.

👉 Contact anthonybarrera@nocturneluxuryvillas.com 

#vacationrentals #shorttermrentals #hospitalitytech

Transcript

Alex Husner 0:02

Welcome to Alex & Annie: the real women vacation rentals. With more than 35 years combined industry experience, Alex User and I'll come to two development connected us between inspiration and opportunity. Join us as they highlight the real stories behind the people and brands that have built vacation rentals into the $100 billion industry it is today. And now, it's time to get real and have some fun with your hosts, Alex and Annie. We'll start the show in just a minute. But first, a word from our premier brand sponsor.

Speaker 4 0:41

Hi, I'm Christina. I'm the founder of Exceptional Stace and Telluride. Exceptional Stace got acquired by Nocturne, and now I'm still involved with the company, but not as a CEO, full-time 24-7 workaholic. I am now just enjoying my legacy and watching from the sidelines. Before connecting with Nocturne, my business was in a stage of massive growth. And we kind of had outlived our in-house systems and our in-house technology marketing, HR accounting. We had no formal trainings. I had built this from the ground up with a really good team. My team was very loyal. They had really put their souls into it as well. So for me, I didn't just want to sell and be done. I wanted to make sure that this was going to be better for everybody and not I was going to just cash out and leave my team to deal with the aftermath. Nocturne approached our transition, very much keeping the homeowners and the employees in the forefront, which was really important to me. They professionalized a lot of things that they took away from us, like HR, accounting, marketing, and professionalized and centralized all that, which allowed the company and the employees to be able to focus on the things they really needed to focus, which are more local-based and more to their knowledge. Nocturne is a multi-destination company. The breadth of the amount of potential clients is humongous. It has grown, double-digit growth. It is not only in our bookings, but also in the homeowners, the number of houses that we've been able to acquire, and just driving ROI. I would tell another company leader who's considering joining Nocturne that here I am four years later, and I'm so happy I did it. And I'm so proud of what the brand has become and what my team has become. I'm very positive about the future of our brand now that it's part of Nocturne, because now it has all the financial researches, the knowledge, the professionalism, people that really know what they're doing on a much higher level, the ability to be part of bigger things like American Express, Platinum, Travel, and other options like that. That wouldn't have happened without Nocturne.

Alex Husner 2:57

If you're considering your next chapter, go to NocturneLuxury Villas.com to see how they can help you protect your legacy while unlocking new opportunities. Welcome to Alex Nanny the Rillamen of Vacation Runnels. I'm Alex. And I'm Annie. And we are joined today by Jim DeVos, who is the president of VR Works. Jim, it's so great to see you today.

Jim DeVos 3:17

It's great to see you guys again. It's been a while. It's been a while.

Annie Holcombe 3:22

We were just talking about that. That's insane. And I guess I am very fortunate because we live close together. So we get together for lunch, and um you share all kinds of wisdom with me and great advice. And I appreciate that. But we need to refresh our listeners as to who Jim DeVos is and what your what your background and story is in the vacation rental world. Oh, sure.

Jim DeVos 3:45

My business partner and I started Best Speech Getaways back in 2008. And we started with a handful of uh a handful of condo properties that actually my partner could vest it in. And uh after about uh after he'd he'd been in it about two or three years, just kind of doing his own thing. And um and to and he came to me and said, hey, listen, I think we could do a better job in this business than what I'm seeing in the marketplace that I'm in. And so we built a model, and then with that model, we built this thing called Best Beach Getaway. That was in 2008, and uh we grew it to about 500 properties managed in the uh in the Panhandle of Florida, Panama City Beach and Avar Beach, and then also on Anna Maria Island. In 2023, we actually sold that business to Monarch Collective, and um, which is a great group of people, by the way. But in the course of building out Best Beach Getaways and growing it, we also started developing our own tech stack in uh in the in the property management software system area. And so uh about 2018 or 19, um, I'm old, so it all blends together for me sometimes. Uh we started working on uh our own uh PMS and we and we actually built it, we built it in a way that we could build, test, uh, implement, build, test, implement over the course of sort of the four key silos, if you will, if you look at our business, in in the back office operations system, in housekeeping management, maintenance management, and then in reservations management and guest communications, and then finally in accounting and and financial management. So we we spent about four years working on building that and putting the pieces in place, and then and then we rolled it out to ourselves at Best Beach Getaways in uh 2022, and and then 2023 we sold company and 2024 and 25, we started looking at and talking to folks in our business to bring on some other customers, and so uh we have in addition to Best Speech Getaways, we have two other customers now for VR Works. And and now that we've sort of gone in that direction and said, okay, do we have a product that works for customers as well as it worked for Best Beech Getaways? We now we know we do, and so we're ready to sort of we're ready to sort of show up at the dance with our, you know, with our best with our best wardrobe on and uh share what we have. So yeah.

Alex Husner 6:39

Oh, that's awesome.

Jim DeVos 6:41

That's kind of where we are.

Alex Husner 6:42

Yeah, no, that's great. I'm so excited to watch this unfold for you. I know we had you on the podcast the last time four years ago when we were just talking about before we hit play. You were one of the first interviews we did. I mean, within the first five to ten, I think. And I remember you you're telling us some great stories about your early career and like different comparisons of how cars were doing back in the day.

Jim DeVos 7:05

Okay, okay. It wasn't it was close, but it wasn't quite that bad.

Alex Husner 7:13

That's right. Yeah, but um, but I also remember I I had spoken to you before you had come on the show when you were talking about how you had your own tech and that basically you guys were kind of like assembling your own, you know, stack layer that went on top of the PMS. But I'm curious, so when when you moved Beach Getaways um completely to this system, was it still running on another base PMS or did you pull it over completely?

Jim DeVos 7:38

No, no, no. We actually that that was the beauty of the way we built it. We we built it sort of a module at a time. So we would create the module, test it, it, and then and then test it, then integrate it into the software that we were using at the time. We did that with an API. Yep. And so in each case, each case we as we added a different piece, we tested it, implemented it, worked the bugs out of it, and then and then when we when we got everything in place, then we then the last year we took five of our properties, moved them completely over to VRWorks, and and made sure everything worked seamlessly. And then uh and then in 2022, yeah, in 2022, we put the entire inventory on on VR Works. So yeah, we we we basically we basically used the PMF that we were in to provide the core as we were adding the elements that needed to be added. And then ultimately we got ourselves to where we had our own, and it all worked. It all worked, yeah, which was important. It all work.

Alex Husner 8:50

Yeah, yeah, that's great.

Annie Holcombe 8:53

And so the nice thing is, the nice thing is as you were finding bugs, you didn't have to call anybody, you just dialed up your was it your was it your son? You had you had your son is working with you, right? What but he wasn't on that part, he was doing something else.

Jim DeVos 9:06

If I'm oh yeah, well, I I have but yeah, I have a son who is actually he's he's now the general manager of of Beth Beach. He will he is actually actually I have two sons. Well one of them is uh the general manager of Beth Beach, the other one is the revenue manager, and so yeah, and and they were and you'd have to meet my children to know this, but uh they they they were my harshest critic. They are my harshest critic of anything. So so so uh so boy, they made sure that software worked for them. And if it and if there was anything that didn't work, as you can imagine, I heard about it. I heard about it over family dinners, I heard about it over the phone, I heard about it in the office. Yeah, so yeah, I got I got a faceful of it. So we we made sure that it was I made sure we made sure that it was pretty bulletproof.

Annie Holcombe 9:57

Yeah, that's that's that's good. It's actually good to have that kind of feedback. I'm sure they love you sticky notes on your computer in your office too, right?

Jim DeVos 10:05

You name it, they communicated with me any way they possibly could. You bet.

Alex Husner 10:11

So now you've got a couple other companies that are using it, and that's gotta be exciting too. Exciting and nerve-wracking, right? Because it's like this is your baby, and it's okay if your baby messes up for you, but if it messes up for anybody else, you know, it's a little nerve-wracking. But have I mean, have you ever I I know I I know you've had some really interesting things in your career from the airlines to the car industry and that, but have you ever done anything in tech specifically before?

Jim DeVos 10:36

Uh no, not really. Not not other than not other than VR work. I mean, it it it it basically um uh and we've got by the way, we've got a uh I'm not that you'd want me as the face of the company, but I am the face of the company. But that but but but that's not you know, we've got some really terrific people uh who work with us, who really help make this thing work and hum along the way it should. Um uh we have a proper project uh we have a project manager, uh and I would I would describe him as our lead software engineer who actually came to us. Um he was a programmer with Honda, uh Honda Honda Honda Motor Company. Oh yeah, he's based in he's based in Ohio, terrific guy, and and he has he really helps us keep things on the straight and narrow, manage the projects correctly, make sure that when we're doing an enhancement, we know what the end game is and that and that everybody's playing along in that end game. Um and then and then uh we have a we have uh programming teams, actually, our programming teams are in India. I've had the chance to do, I shouldn't say I've done some tech work in other fields. Um not quite not as quite as complex as the PMS system, but the guys that we have in India are absolutely stellar, just highly capable people, and and absolutely know what they're doing. And they're and it's interesting to me how over the course of the last five years or so, these guys have actually learned uh from us really the dynamics of the vacation rental business. And what are the things that we should be paying attention to, and what are the things that they should be paying attention to to make to make things work the way they're supposed to.

Alex Husner 12:28

Yeah, better tech.

Jim DeVos 12:29

Yeah, better one of the you know, as I've uh over my history with Best Beach, we acquired about 10 different vacation rental companies, smaller ones, a couple of them fairly decent size, but most of them in the smaller 50 properties or less range. Every one of them had their own PMS system that they were working with. And it's all the names that you would expect them to be. And so we'd have a chance to look at those systems every time and evaluate them because we went into the acquisition open-minded and said, if they had something better than we have, let's adopt what they have. And so we'd look at these different systems, and and number one, none of them uh work as well as the core of what we had, but then none of them clearly was working as well as where we were going with our own uh PMS system. And and so for us, what we saw was kind of a gap in the marketplace. And and the gap is really to me, the gap is really about uh efficiency. Okay. And some of them it's easy to get around in, some of it it's not so easy to get around in. But when you start to break it all apart, what you don't see to me, what you don't see is a system that allows for an operator in our business, a vacation rental manager, to really optimize the efficiency within their organization. And and the way we built VR Works was we wanted it to be a system that made everybody's job easier, that allowed everybody to to do more without overburdening themselves, and to make something that was really scalable at a variety of different levels. And so but the core focus is how do I make everybody in the organization more efficient with the software that I have? And so that's really to me what makes bet what makes VR Works a uh a really good product for for vacation rental managers to consider. Because at the end of the day, if you make efficiency work to your advantage, at the end of the day, you end up more profitable. If you'll notice, the the tagline for VR works is bigger, better, bottom line. And that's exactly the way we think about uh uh property management systems. They should be in they should be a facilitator of making your property management company more efficient and therefore more profitable. And and so so that's what we got. That's what we built. We built something that's streamlined housekeeping management, streamlined maintenance management, streamlined reservation management, guest services, and accounting. And so, and so the thing is when you when you have something that is more efficient, uh it makes everything work a whole lot better. It makes on the simple level, it allows you to get your guests in earlier because you know instantaneously when a property is ready. And you and it and if the system works right, then it communicates with the guest instantaneously. And if you get a guest in early, you guys have been in the business, you know. You get a you get you get a guest in two hours early. Oh my lord. Yeah, you won the lottery. You done won the lottery. Yeah, and so we wanted to make sure that it was that that it did that. And and actually, the now, this is okay, this is this is a little back behind the curtain. The first summer that we that we operated our housekeeping and maintenance management system, the first summer I said, listen, I'm gonna make this thing, make sure this thing works. So I'm going to be the one who is going to make sure that that we know when everything's ready and that the guests are communicated with. And we were, and this is summer, this was in summertime, peak season. We did this. And so we would have about 350 arrivals on any particular day, on any particular Saturday. I did, I did all the notifications by myself. I made sure everything, I made sure all the guests were notified because it was so easy. And I did it from my home, I did it while I was having coffee for breakfast, or when I was sitting by the pool in the afternoon. It it the system was really worked and it got and it got the guests in early. Crazy. Just crazy. So so that was important. Then making sure that operations, we were eliminating as much paper as we possibly could, which we did. And so financial reporting got a whole lot easier, and it got a whole lot more efficient, which made uh made our people happy because they didn't have to, they didn't have to constantly input things because everything was done electronically. It made our finance team happy because things weren't getting missed from a billing perspective, made guests made made the owners happy because the owners saw timely and accurate financial reporting. And so we made everything we just made everything a whole lot more efficient. And at the end of the day, from the way we were to the way we got to, we almost doubled our net profit. Well, because we had the system, uh, we we were growing without adding headcount, we were growing without mistakes, we were growing with systems that allowed us to grow and allowed us to continue to operate with a peak level of efficiency. And so after we sort of got through the acquisition of Best Feach, what my partner and I decided, you know, we need to we need to bring this to market. We need to talk to other people about what we have. And so that's really, and so we did that on a kind of a smaller scale, and now we're ready to to uh bring it out wider and talk to more people. But I will tell you this unlike I want to have property managers, owners of companies who who you and who the three of us would look at and go, or that's a smart gap, those are those are the people who who will easily get what I'm talking about, number one. And number two, yeah, as you as you guys know, software is not it's not static, it's dynamic. And so if you've got if you've got smart people who look critically at the business, they will bring you things and ideas that you may not have thought about. And so what we're trying to create with VR Works is this collaboration of really smart people who can help us take what is a really great base of efficiency and make it even better by bringing in more intellectual capital into the process, if that makes any sense at all.

Alex Husner 19:48

We'll be back in just a minute. But first, a word from our premier brand sponsor.

Speaker 1 19:51

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Speaker 3 21:43

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Annie Holcombe 22:06

When you and I got together last, you were telling me about kind of your go-to-market strategy and and how you wanted to uh price things. And I I don't know if you were prepared to talk about that here, but I thought it was an interesting kind of the the way you are thinking that you want to work with property managers to sell them on utilizing the system.

Jim DeVos 22:25

Oh yeah. And they scratch their head and they go, really? So my thought is that we bring this to market and we bring on people this way. Instead of my having to charge you per unit per month, how about if we work out a way that that basically we end up having the customer pay for the software by by putting and we've got this, we've got this engineer into the software now, by putting a very small, a very small markup on top of things so that instead of you as a property manager having to figure out what am I spending on my PMS this now, I'm not spending anything on my PMS until somebody buys my vacation. And so if we start there, then all of a sudden we have a partnership where we're not worried, you're not worried about the expense, and I'm not worried about collecting the money. We're looking at the business together and going, okay, we've generated this kind of revenue together. We're actually thinking about this in a way where we have it set up so that we take that slight markup and we share in it. So we make a little money, the property manager makes a little money. So instead of proper instead of the cost of the PMS being a cost, it actually becomes a revenue set. So it's a different, it's a different way to look at it.

Alex Husner 23:52

Yeah, I mean, this way, you know, everybody has skin in the game, you know, and that's that's pretty powerful. I've I don't know that I've heard of any PMSs doing it that way. I mean, there's some that softwares that do it based on a percentage of of revenue, like the you know uh revenue management softwares and things. But yeah, no, that's interesting. And yeah, they better hope that they get or you better hope that they get some bookings, but if they're not, it's probably because something's wrong.

Jim DeVos 24:19

So yeah, well, well, but and that but that something wrong isn't gonna be me. Right. Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but uh so yeah, I have an incentive to make everything work that way. You got that right.

Annie Holcombe 24:31

Yeah, you bet so why don't you why don't you tell us a little bit? So you um you mentioned like you know, you sold your business um and then you got bored and you decided to start up another business, which is not something most people do. Usually when people get out of the vacation rental business, they get out of it and then they go like sail off into the sunset. But you decided, like, nope, I need more punishment, I'm gonna stay in the business. Exactly. So now you're doing all of it. So tell us about it. Well, tell us a little bit about that and and what you're doing next. Because you've got now you've moved to south, more south than central Florida, so away from the pandemic, so a different market altogether.

Jim DeVos 25:05

Yeah, yeah. Well, actually, uh yeah, it's kind of fun because we had we actually acquired uh a sort of a medium-sized vacation management company in Orlando. And and then and then but but before we acquired them, we actually acquired two small companies in the Cape Coral Fort Myers market, and then and then a small company in in the Orlando area before we actually acquired the larger company. We're we're rebranding the company under the brand Swanky Vake. It's going to be a great deal of fun. We're we've got about 180 properties. We actually have an operating partner. I'm not for Best Beach Getaways, I was the operating partner. I'm not the operating partner for this other company for this company that we're building. There are three of us together in this business, and we've all worked together for about 25 years. I mean, we all come from a hospitality background. And so we're excited about we're going to take swanky vacay in terms of building it in both the Orlando market and then down in the southwest Florida market. I'm doing a little bit in that. I'm spending more of my time in VR works, but you know what? I do not want to wake up in the morning and go, I got nothing to do.

Alex Husner 26:19

Right. Well, yeah, you've got plenty to do. And I mean, it's obviously very symbiotic too. So that's the nice thing about it.

Speaker 7 26:25

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Alex Husner 26:28

So how what's the plan to get more customers besides just the pricing model? Like what's gonna what's gonna be the outreach to get this, besides coming on the podcast, of course, but what what's the plan?

Jim DeVos 26:37

Uh there's a couple of things. One, I want to, I'm I want to do something more heavily in social media, number one. So that we talk about and we make we make VR works. We we have people start to people start to clearly understand in a social from a social media perspective, what what do we have and what makes us different? To Annie's point, uh, we're gonna have to start showing up at shows, which which is not my it's not my favorite thing, but we're gonna be there. I'm not looking for thousands of uh of vr works uh customers. I'm looking for some really smart ones. And so, and so I don't need to be at every show, I don't need to have uh uh a say a sales force who is uh causing uh, you know, who you look at your phone and go, oh, it's them again. You know, you know, like I don't I don't I don't need them. I need a few I need a few really smart people and and actually the customers the customers that we have now are those people. And so I I need more of them.

Alex Husner 27:40

Yeah, they become your advocates.

Jim DeVos 27:42

I want to grow this thing, as you know, anytime you start something new, it there's there's a bit of inertia, and so you've got to you've got to get to the point where you have created a flywheel. I want to create that flywheel, it's gonna take a little bit of time, but what I want the flywheel to attract is I want them to attract those people who go, you know, I think we could be way more efficient, and I and I understand that efficiency is gonna help me uh create more profitability, and it's also gonna help me with my business in terms of attracting the right kind of owners and keeping them. It's going to help me have my people feel happy and satisfied with the job that they're doing and attract the right kind of guests. Believe it or not, efficiency at the core of it can do all of those things. And so I'm looking, I'm looking for the people who get that. Absolutely get that. And if they get it, I can sit down and have a conversation with them and they'll and they'll understand what we're doing. So really, my plan is just to have conversations like this, actually.

Annie Holcombe 28:44

Well, I love the fact that all the conversations that we've had over the years, as you've been building this out, I know that um periodically I would connect you with people that I know when you were doing your accounting, kind of your accounting modules, I was like, oh, I know a P I know a manager on the in the panhandle that that's a hot button for her. Like she would be somebody because she's looked at all the systems. And so I think you were you were doing this very methodically over time. But I also love the fact that you're not trying to roll out of the gate and be all things to everybody. I think that that's where some systems get tripped up, is that they want to say that like we can solve all these problems. And you're not doing that. You're you're you're solving a very specific problem. But I wanted to ask you um about sort of, you know, you were referencing like the PMSs that have all the things in it. Um, how are you addressing those uh bolt-ons that people are looking for? Like I know you and I had talked about um having um, you know, the guest verifications, you know, systems and and things like that. So what are you doing to make sure that you have those available for for managers?

Jim DeVos 29:43

That that's we we have an open API. Oh, it's pretty simple. If somebody wants something that we don't have that makes sense so that we are not trying to be all things to all people, for for example, we have we have a phone system built into this, and it's really pretty spiffy. And it's and it's designed so that anybody can answer their can answer the phone on their computer or on their or on their phone. We've got that built in. But we had somebody who wanted us to also have a call monitoring system. And uh and and we talked about the management time involved in that relative to the value created by it. And and we made a judgment, Cole, and said, if that's what you want, we're not the guys. We're just not the guys for that because it doesn't fit our model of efficiency. So, so number one, we're open to looking at a variety of different things. Uh, guest verification, we're we're doing now because now we're not doing it, we've actually got an API built for it, because that's something for one of our customers that they've got to have because of local regulation. Okay, gotta do that. So we've got an open API. We have the ability to bolt on things that that somebody wants to have. Somebody wanted to have a particular uh housekeeping management system added to VRworks because they liked that system. And and and I said at the end of the day, we're I just that's again, we're not we're not the guys for that. We've got a really good house. Yeah, I don't know we built something that replaces it, made things more efficient, yeah. Made things more efficient. So I so we always want to have the we all the glasses we want to wear are the glasses that say whatever we add on, add to the efficiency of the business. If you if you look at it through that prism, then you don't end up with the software that you open up and look at it and go, where do I go now? I don't know where anything is. Right. I don't want that kind of software. I want the kind of software that that if I'm a reservationist, I can go in there and I know exactly where my stuff is. Yeah. If I'm an operations manager, I know where my stuff is. You know, it's and so that's the way we've built VR. It works in in all the core parts of the business in a way that makes everybody more efficient. That's the lens we look through.

Alex Husner 32:14

Yeah, no, I mean it makes perfect sense, Jim. And uh the main question that I think you're probably gonna push back that people are gonna say is oh god, switching PMSs is terrible. So I mean, it's you know, we're it's like uh you know, a death in the family, or yeah, it's awful.

Jim DeVos 32:31

Trust me, trust me, I know, I know.

Alex Husner 32:33

You've done it. What's your plan to what's your plan for onboarding?

Jim DeVos 32:38

Our operating principle is I want to make it as painless as we can make it to make that transition. So here's what we do. We want to access, we want to we want to access all of the all of the information that exists in their current PMS. If it's owner information, guest information, future bookings, uh, recurring charges, you name it. We want to be able to download all of that stuff and and download it into uh uploadable documents. Because that's what we do anyway. That's that's what we've done. We've done it now three different times with the three different customers. So we download as much information as we possibly can, upload that information to VRWorks, and then instead of having to hand enter everything, but what we're doing is we're saying we need to check things and make sure we have everything accurately input. We can't get to 100%, but we're trying to eliminate as close to 100% of inputting as we possibly can, so that the team that's coming on board with us now doesn't have two full-time jobs, the regular job and the inputting job into the new software. We don't want that. We want to make it as easy as that transition as easy as we possibly can. Because you're right, you're right. It is painless. There, there is a okay. Now I'm now you're making me go back to a story from about 30 years ago. So I'm so loved. Yeah, I know. So I I was uh I was in the advertising agency business, and the our client had been acquired, and we were pitching the acquire error about about moving to us as their advertising agency. And our CEO, who is a brilliant guy, uh started his presentation out this way. He said, Change frightens people. And and and that's the truth. Any time any change, even though we all try to be flexible, people are really change of earth. And so the more that we can do to break the barrier down to change, the better. And so that's the way we look at transitioning to VR works. We want to remove as many barriers as we possibly can to making the change. There will always be some, and we try to be as transparent about what the limitations are, but we also try to be a facilitator of simple of simplifying that change process, if that makes sense.

Annie Holcombe 35:04

Yeah, absolutely. So if somebody is interested in getting a consultation conversation started with you, what's the best way to get to you?

Jim DeVos 35:15

It's the best way to get to me is my email address or my phone number. And I probably, you know, I probably should have it on the background.

Annie Holcombe 35:24

So we'll put it in the show. We'll put your email address in the show notes. I know you're getting more active on LinkedIn. I see you post on there more now. So we we're you're crawling out of the closet here or out of the wood. Whatever you want to say.

Jim DeVos 35:38

My oldest granddaughter's a recent grad from the University of Georgia, and she's a grandpa. You are really pitiful on social media. You need to get back together. She's my consultant. She's my consultant. She's helping me get there.

Annie Holcombe 35:55

Well, you need the young, you need the young people to tell you where to go these days. They they know all the stuff.

Jim DeVos 35:59

So oh yeah. Oh, well, and my granddaughter will tell me where to go. Don't worry.

Alex Husner 36:05

Well, good. Wow. I love it, Jim. I'm so excited to see this keep evolving. And I think your approach to it is super smart. And I want to see a demo, so we'll have to set up another call so I can take a look at it. I'd love to see behind the scenes of it. But um we wish you the best of luck. And I hope anybody who's who's listening, you know, please feel free to reach out to Jim. He's got a wealth of knowledge too. So you'll you'll hear some good stories, if nothing else.

Jim DeVos 36:32

More than you want. More than you want.

Alex Husner 36:34

Thanks so much, Jim. And for everybody else who's listening, thank you for listening always. And if you want to get in touch with us, you can go to alexandanypodcast.com. Until next time, thanks, everybody.