Jeff Hurst on Why Midterm Rentals Are Gaining Ground in a Mature STR Market

Midterm rentals are moving from a side option to a real strategy. In this episode, Alex & Annie sit down with Jeff Hurst, CEO of Furnished Finder and former HomeAway and Expedia Group leader, to explain why 30+ day stays are gaining traction as many STR markets move into a more mature phase.

Jeff breaks down what makes midterm rentals different from short-term rentals, what demand is actually driven by, and why midterm can be a strong fit for operators looking for stability, fewer turnovers, and a guest profile rooted in real-life transitions.

Episode Chapters:
01:04 – Jeff’s background and how he views category shifts in rentals
06:16 – What Furnished Finder is, and what “midterm” means in practice
07:24 – Why the category is still early, and what professionalization looks like
08:35 – Who midterm guests are and what they need from a stay
12:01 – How midterm works operationally: screening, leases, deposits, and payments
22:48 – “Return on furniture” and the investment logic behind midterm
26:58 – Regulation, market maturity, and why more operators are taking midterm seriously
32:15 – Why midterm is gaining ground in saturated (mature) STR markets
33:21 – What types of properties fit midterm demand, and what does not

Connect with Jeff:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-hurst-atx/
Website: https://www.furnishedfinder.com/

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#vacationrentals #shorttermrentals #MTR

Transcript

Meet Jeff Hurst And His Journey

Alex Husner 0:01

Welcome to Alex and Annie, the real women of Vacation Reynolds. With more than 35 years combined industry experience, Alex User and Annie Holcomb have teamed up to connect the dots between inspiration and opportunity, seeking to find the one story, idea, strategy, or decision that led to their guests' big aha moment. Join them as they highlight the real stories behind the people and brands that have built vacation rentals into the $100 billion industry it is today. And now it's time to get real and have some fun with your hosts, Alex and Annie. Welcome to Alex and Annie, the Rule Woman of Vacation Runnels. I'm Alex and I'm Annie. And we are joined today by Jeff Hurst, who is the CEO of Furnished Finder. Jeff, it's so good to have you on the show.

Jeff Hurst 0:48

So good to see y'all again and happy to be back in the short-term rental orbit.

Annie Holcombe 0:52

Well, you've been absent for really just a hot minute. It hasn't been that long. But I know there is likely some people that aren't familiar with you and your background. So why don't you share a little bit about your story and then we'll get into what Furnished Finder is all about.

Jeff Hurst 1:05

Sounds good. So I got into the short-term rental space in 2010. I was an early-ish employee at Home Away. I was the first person in the strategy department there. Was at Homaway from 2010 and ultimately became the chief strategy officer when we sold to Expedia in 2015. Stayed on and was the chief commercial officer for those following the show with Alex and Annie. It was a job kind of like Tim Rosolio has now. And so I had that for several years. Tim was on my team for a long time. I was then the president of uh Verbo and Hummaway. And then after that, I was the co-u-lead of marketing for Expedia Group and then the chief operating officer for Expedia. So I left about three years ago. Um, although, judging by the comments I get on LinkedIn about someone needing a refund for a Hummaway property, it's like I never left at all.

Alex Husner 1:58

That's hilarious.

Jeff Hurst 1:59

These past two years, I have been the CEO furnish finder. And so we are a midterm rental site, very much a throwback, so a classified site like the RBO in 2011. And we help people with 30-day plus rentals. Uh it's a fast-growing category, all furnished, all monthly stays, or typical durations about three months. And uh increasingly we've been overlapping on the short-term side, and you know, saw how many familiar names you had and was kind of begging my way onto the show so it's gonna see everybody again.

Why Midterm Rentals Are Surging

Alex Husner 2:30

I remember when you've you pulled out a comment form on our website and I got it and I sent it to Annie. I was like, oh my God, yes, of course we're gonna have Jeff on the show. But we were we were excited when we saw that you wanted to come on. So uh definitely excited to have the conversation today. And you know, for our listeners, I feel like we've we constantly keep hearing this, and especially at events that I've been at lately, most recently IMN, which is uh more short-term rental versus traditional vacation rental type operators, I would say, that attend those events. Um, that companies are trying to get into midterm rentals if they're not already doing it. I mean, they're seeing this as an opportunity whether they want to do it as an additional uh offering within the company or they have to do it because of regulation. But you know, it's kind of an interesting spot that you're in that it's there's nothing new about what you're doing. I mean, for years I booked winter rentals here in North Myrtle Beach, and those were three-month rentals, and there wasn't a whole lot of options uh at that point for where you could specifically put that type of inventory. But I guess my my first question would be I mean, going from the behemoth of the Virgo Expedia, large OTA days to what you're doing now, I mean, uh just tell us what it's like. I mean, like there's gotta just be the massive differences.

Jeff Hurst 3:43

It's um it it is it is honestly, it's refreshing. And so uh, you know, I've got a 16-year-old daughter, she just started driving three weeks ago. I've got a 13-year-old son, you know, for anyone who listened to Sarah and T for some period of 2019 to 22, like I was always coaching basketball, and it's like now he's outgrown my coaching, but like I wanted to be home more. Um, and uh a really hard thing about Expedia, both Expedia Group and Varbo, just from a career perspective, was how global it was. And so I was a pretty senior executive, and like we had offices in 90 offices and pretty much every time zone, except a few in the Pacific. And so like it just never turned off. And so what I've really loved about uh the chapter at Furnish Finder is you know, most of the teams in Austin, Texas were together Tuesday through Thursday. Most of them worked with me at Homo Air Expedia, like we all kind of know each other, and we're just solving this one thing in the US. Like we're and and you know, you mentioned the the occasion of like, well, hadn't this stuff kind of been around forever? It's like, you know, that that's very much how I felt in 2010 with vacation rentals. And I was like, you know, there you'd always been able to go to the mountains and go to the beach and maybe a lake house, but then all of a sudden you could go to Hollywood and you could, you know, stay in these places everywhere. I think monthly furnish is kind of having that moment. Like we don't have a big leisure business. We have a big like, is it near a hospital, is it near a university, is it near a commuter corridor business? It's got more in common with like where you're gonna see an extended stay in America or where you're honestly gonna see like a new um Lenar home development. Uh, like those are the types of areas they gravitate towards. They're smaller footprint, they're a lot cheaper. And so that that's really a different occasion than like the core leisure verbo occasion. And I think what's exciting is all these things are kind of starting to bleed together. The Zillow occasion, the apartments.com occasion, corporate travel, a lot of the hotel development is actually in midterm rentals and like this extended stay concept. And so you're just seeing more flexible living. And we're a platform that I think, you know, is appealing because it's simple and cheap.

Annie Holcombe 5:46

Yeah. I mean, I would say also the I would say a big difference for your job now, your past role is when you're with a public company, even the company doesn't turn off, but then everything you do has so many layers of decision making that goes into it. So you can pivot a lot quicker, you can make decisions, you can try new things. Out of curiosity, you said we're off camera, you're you're not like a booking site, like a traditional OTA, you're not operating in that sense. What is Furnish Finder? What's the foundational operation look like for you guys?

Jeff Hurst 6:15

Yeah. So the the value product, it's $199 a year. You buy a subscription, we host your listing, and then you get you basically get inquiries. Uh there's three types. You can get what we call a booking request, which is like an inquiry with more form fields and you learn more about the tenant. You can get a direct message, which feels like an inquiry or direct message on Airbnb or Virgo. It's like, hey, do you accept pets? And it's like, yeah, it says they're right in the listing, but thanks for double checking. Um and then, you know, because we're classified, we also will behind a button is basically the phone number. And, you know, it's a it's it's a 90-day stay, it's often for work. And so it's very frequent people will actually visit the house in person. You know, they pay with ACH or sometimes cash or check, they do a FaceTime. And so it's a much more direct line of communication through our site. And we're not nearly as involved, really involved at all in the transaction. We're just there to help get eyeballs on your site.

Alex Husner 7:12

Yeah, that's great. And I'm interested too. I mean, how much does brand matter in in the midterm space? I mean, that's a big thing that we talk about all the time as far as short term goes. But does brand matter for the consumers you're going after?

Inside Furnished Finder’s Model

Jeff Hurst 7:24

You know, um, probably not, you know, but it would there'd be some asterisks to it. You know, there's a few larger branded players. Uh there's one called Blue Ground, there's one called Landing Pad Split, while their room rentals is kind of a branded player, but not to the same extent you'd find in vacation rentals. And then, you know, where brand might show up more is there are people like who are making a choice between like a Hilton and staying in an a uh monthly furnished rental. And so like that that's more of a distinction. Of our inventory, it it you know, it is it's 20 years ago in the sense that like it's 85% independent landlords who have a single property. You know, this is not a lot of large managed inventory. You see more of that on Zillowandapartments.com, and then you obviously see more of that on Airbnb. And so for the most part, there aren't really brands available. Like the brand is like, I'm gonna go talk to Betsy, who's got a two-bedroom, you know, studio or duplex, and she lives next door. Like, I'm going to talk to her, pick up the phone, FaceTime, and maybe go visit. I think we're very early in professionalization, and we're gonna see a lot more of it as the category matures.

Annie Holcombe 8:28

Do you see the crossover into some of the traditional vacation markets as an opportunity for you guys?

Jeff Hurst 8:34

I think it it will be, but it'll be for a minority of the inventory. We're not good at filling a four-bedroom in Aspen. I don't think we're gonna be good at filling a four-bedroom in the Gulf Coast. And so, like you think about who's using our side, they're traveling for work, and a lot of that is skilled trade. There's relocating families, which is the use case I think is most possible. Traveling healthcare, which is really a price point that isn't gonna work for most short-term rentals. You know, you're talking like $1,600 a month, you know, that's not gonna spin off versus, you know, renting out 10 nights as a short-term. And then there's a lot of academics. And so there'll be overlap markets, but it'll really be for these smaller footprints. You know, you're kind of like, especially, I'd say your one bedroom or your studio plus a bonus room type of thing. Um, and then your two bedrooms. Eventually, I think you'll see more and more, not your core leisure destinations, but like your your Austin's, your Los Angeles's, your Seattle's, where part of the housing stock is a monthly furnished rental. And people who are moving to a new neighborhood actually are like, I'm gonna go live in one of these for four months and be sure this is the neighborhood I want to be in, and really dial in like, do I want to be on that street or this street or this side of this artery or that side? I think that's gonna get to be a lot more common. And then over time, you know, I've kind of become more of a believer in what Chesky's been saying for a long time around, like, I do think people are just gonna live this way. Like, there is a generation who's just gonna not buy furniture. And that's gonna be a way they save money and invest in something else and just live in these types of rentals, but they need them to not just be in Myrtle Beach and 30A and Aspen and Steamboat. Like they need them to be in Plano and outside of Austin and in, you know, Chico, California, and wherever they need to end up.

Annie Holcombe 10:12

Yeah. I worked with the the Hello Landing group for a while, and and I and what they're doing is really interesting just because they're, you know, they have within their ecosystem kind of like a club where you can move around to different properties and different cities. And I think that I think it's spot on, given the advent of sort of like that nomadic worker, like people can work from anywhere. I think that that's if you're young, my husband and I talk about it all the time. It's like if we had been able to do that when we were in our 20s, you know, late 20s before we had our son, like that would have been a great life to be able to just go out and you know, really see where you wanted to, where you wanted to land. But then we got sucked into vacation rentals, so we got stuck to work. So we're all here.

Jeff Hurst 10:50

Yeah, you know, what what's been interesting demographically is how much of the I thought that use case you're describing was going to be like when my daughter gets out of college. Uh what surprised me, it's got way more to do with my mom. You know, it's actually like it's actually the boomer generation and late Gen X who are getting one of these for three months to be close to a newborn child, or they're getting one of these for three months to not be in Texas in July, August, and September. And they're they're moving around that way uh because they've got you know equity in their home that they may not want to sell the home and they might actually be renting out their home or building an ADU. And so I've been surprised how much older the demographics are who are embracing this. And I think a lot of that is because of the success short-term rentals had. They destigmatized staying in these homes and like picking up the phone and like, oh, it'll be fine. I'll just talk to the landlord and we'll figure it out. Like, I don't think people would have thought that way 15 years ago.

Alex Husner 11:44

Yeah, definitely not. And how does it work on your site as far as the process to book something? Is it, I mean, it's you're not actually booking, I know that, but once it goes over to the property management company, is it just, you know, whatever their rules are that if they do background checks or anything like that, is there anything that's enforced on your side?

Brand, Inventory, And Who Really Books

Jeff Hurst 12:01

Way more like a long-term lease than it is short-term. You're gonna sign a lease, you're gonna do a tenant screening. Yeah. Um, you know, it'll be relatively a smaller deposit versus what some of the vacation rental deposits might be. Uh, you're gonna pay month to month. Overwhelmingly, you're more likely to be using like ACH, Venmo, check, cash. Uh credit cards do get used, but um, it's not, it's not dominant as much as it is in short-term rental. Um and, you know, and and as a landlord, you're not you're not playing that like Jenga game, that Tetris of how do I fill up my calendar and all these bookings. Like for the most part, you take a booking, over a third of the time they extend. You know, we've got a colleague who's had someone in their monthly furnished rental for almost two and a half years. They're just happy. And so they just stabbed, and all of a sudden you're like, wow, well, I'm making more money than I would as a long term, and this has been an awesome outcome.

Alex Husner 12:52

Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. It seems so much more simple than what we're doing on the short-term side.

Jeff Hurst 12:59

You know, it is less rate. You know, I I think a a you know, finding a great short-term rental is still just like a world-class investment. But I think it's easier to find a great midterm rental, which is better than a lot of average short-term rentals. And the the downside is like I've got three short-term rentals. They're all property managed now. I used to self-manage. I emotionally love all three of them. My kids love them. There's poor memories at them. Like, I bought them a little bit for the investment, and they've been good investments, but I bought them a lot for like this is a part of the family. And like midterms don't have that. You know, like I'm buying a quadplex on the outskirts of Austin and hoping to have like grad students and traveling nurses or, you know, traveling professors, whatever it is. You know, it's much more of a cash return profile as opposed to like a passion project that you're, you know, really hosting people. Uh, there's a middle ground. You know, people do have ADUs and people do have people that live next door to where it's can be a bit blurrier. But for the most part, I'd say this is more of a financial investment, whereas short-term rentals often have a vanity component or an emotional component.

Annie Holcombe 14:02

I was gonna ask you about that. Are you working with any institutional investors that are building out some of these in in specific markets? Or I mean, I I guess you could really go anywhere, but you know, what what is your focus at you know at present?

Jeff Hurst 14:15

You know, we I mean, we're over, you know, our mission is independent landlords and you know, and increasingly we're hoping to reach them through the software providers and um, you know, and even property managers. But the uh we don't have a big multifamily play. Uh we don't do anything with institutional investors. I think our pad split and landing are probably our bigger, you know, among our bigger customers and they're big, but there's not a dynamic yet that feels like Cosago and Vicasa and Evolve and VTrips or whatever happens after VTrips. Like there's not that aggregation at a regional or state level. You know, I think it's more likely to be that realtors are kind of rolling this up as property managers as part of like their long-term property management business extension because the economics are quite a bit different. I expect the institutional capital, it's certainly coming in through hotels. You see a little bit of it, like um Placemaker is an example. They just did a deal with Hilton and they're like taking stock, you know, in partnership with the multifamilies to have like an entire floor of two and three bedrooms and one bedrooms at there's one in downtown Austin, there's one in, I think, the domain. You know, and I think you'll see more of that. I don't think you'll see it as communities because a lot of the use cases, you're actually trying to join a community, not like be there with a lot of vacationers. If you're my family and I'm moving to Seattle, like I don't want to move into a community full of other people moving to Seattle. Like I want to move into a community full of people who know Seattle and live there and whose kids have been in school there for three years, and my kids can meet their kids. And so, like, you're looking for a little more permanence. I describe them as like, it's almost like every community, every neighborhood should want to have five to ten of these as an asset because they help people whose roof burns down, whose plumbing bursts, you know, who sold a house and they don't know where to go next. Well, hey, go move into my midterm rental, take it for four months while you find your next place. Like, you're excited to do that for your neighbors in a way you may not have been excited to have like the bachelor party come in for the three night weekend.

Alex Husner 16:01

Right. Yeah. Good point. Good point. Now you mentioned that you're working on some integrations with most of the PMSs within the space. Is that going to be just as a like content API to get photos, descriptions, or is there going to be some component of booking it online that actually is like making a record of a booking and then the rest of the path is actually confirmed once it gets over?

Jeff Hurst 16:23

We'll start with rates and rates and photos, or rates and dates is available now. Content, photos, descriptions, and kind of the messaging component is very shortly around the corner. We don't have any plans to do booking, and I'm personally against it. What I'd like to see as power would actually feel like if you wanted to book, it would be more of a click to reveal a button that actually just puts you in, you know, Alex or Andy's website. It just it would it would almost look work more like a meta-site. Like I'm not trying to make any commission on the booking, and so I don't need it to happen in my infrastructure. So it would feel more like, you know, send a message here, ask questions. If you're ready to book, you know, we're happy to send you off to that link because a lot of our customers are already including, hey, you can see my inventory at this link, or if you want to book, here's a payment link, that sort of stuff.

Alex Husner 17:10

Oh, how nice. I miss those days.

Jeff Hurst 17:12

Yeah, it is. It's it's it's a time machine.

Alex Husner 17:15

Yeah, it is. So it's it's a per listing uh per listing fee. Yeah.

Use Cases And Demographics Shift

Jeff Hurst 17:20

There are there are discounts if you're you know, if you have, I think, more than five listings, you start to earn discounts and they get bigger the more inventory you add. You know, for anyone not aware of it, I'd say like, you know, don't beat yourself up. Like I was in charge of corporate development and buying stuff at Verbo and was in the industry for 15 years and I had no idea this site existed. Like when I got here, they had almost 200,000 customers. We've got 240,000 now, 300,000 homes. Like it's big. And it's um it's it was very just below the radar. It was very much focused on traveling healthcare. And then it got huge in the pandemic.

Alex Husner 17:53

Yeah. No, it's in in the Myrtle Beach area when I've had family or friends move down here and they've asked me for help finding a, you know, mostly an annual rental or six months or whatever it is. Typically I would go to the rental company's websites that I know that were short-term, but they offered long-term rentals. Um, sometimes found something. Then otherwise I'd look on like apartments.com and like, you know, there's like some like more solo rentals, apartment lists, yeah. But I I don't know that when I've done it in the past, I found furnish finder. But to me, you know, looking at it, okay, could Airbnb or does Verbo Airbnb booking, do they, could they support this, you know, in the future more significantly? They could. But I feel like from the product position, like, you know, it doesn't make sense to go shop in one place for something that it's that it's not. You know, it's like, you know, you don't you don't go to to Target for certain things and you don't go to you know, crate and barrel for certain things. Like, I mean, it's it's it's use case driven. And I feel like it's it's a little bit noisy when you try and mix everything together there. Is I mean, is that kind of where you guys sought of like this this niche mentality is really where to lean in to get the most effective turnout?

Jeff Hurst 19:05

It it's absolutely about focusing on a niche that you know is a small part of Airbnb's business and an even smaller part of Zillow or uh apartments.com's business. You know, um, I think Zillow's got, you know, they've got millions of rentals and they've got 50,000 furnished rentals for less than a year. You know, it's a it's just it's small. And on Airbnb, anything is bookable for more than 30 days, but it'd be pretty rare for something nice to actually be bookable for 120 consecutive days. Like it's almost a sign that it's not high quality if it's available for that long uninterrupted. The reason we think we exist in particular versus an Airbnb is it really has more to do with communication and pricing than anything. And so, you know, our average booking is $6,000. Airbnb's take, you know, whether it's a traveler fee or, you know, in the new commission model, you know, it's 10 to 15%. If you're traveling for work and doing the six to nine months of the year and have a you know median American income, you're gonna pay Airbnb like two weeks of take-home pay to accept the booking, or you're gonna do like two hours of work and actually talk to the landlord and visit the place and do a FaceTime and probably feel more confident about what you're getting into and say enough money to pay for your spring break tomorrow beach. Um, so you know, we really view it as like we think the occasion merits something that is not as expensive. And because of that, we need to keep the solution lighter weight. So the loot solution feels more like Zillow or Apartments.com and it's priced that way, but we're trying to build more of a search experience and filtering that's more modern like Airbnb. But like, you know, it is not as slick as Airbnb because we won't invest that much because we want it to be cheaper.

Annie Holcombe 20:38

You mentioned that a lot of this is the Gen Xers and like, you know, the older crowd. Are there any other trends that you're seeing within this space that maybe people aren't aware of? Like if they have properties, they should be thinking about.

Jeff Hurst 20:49

To me, what's exciting about it as an investor, you know, I mentioned I've got three vacation rentals, none of them are within an hour and a half of my house. What's exciting about this as an investor is you can do it, you can almost certainly do it near your house. You know, it's like you may live in a three-bedroom home in a you know neighborhood with a great school district, and you've probably never looked at what it costs to buy a duplex with two one-bedrooms or two, two ones in your neighborhood. Like that inventory exists. It exists in my neighborhood. And so the the opportunity is really, I think it's more approachable because you like you know who's in your neighborhood, you know who goes to kids school with your kids, you know who's moving, who's coming and going. And so you can tailor the experience, but you can also like really be more hands-on because the place can be five minutes from your house. Um, and that that's really different than like the lead, you know, live in Dallas, own a leisure in uh Broken Bow or in South Padre. Like it's just different. And so I think that's the biggest unlock is that it opens up a lot of not only more affordable, but more accessible inventory for investors to manage this. And then as a property manager, especially those in urban who may have been hit by 30 day regulations or capacity constraints, it opens up another way to try and make money that's not as thin as being a Long term. And you know, I think a short-term property manager will be excellent at midterm. But the difference is like they they should be charging less for it because you're going to turn it over three times a year instead of 55.

Alex Husner 22:10

Yeah. And so from the furnace side of things, I think that's where, you know, there's a lot of people that have long-term rentals, and that's more common as something that, you know, has been what you invest in for real estate. But um, like my husband and I, we have two duplexes and but they're not furnished at all. Um, and we do annual rentals there. I think we would do a semi-annual rental. I just haven't had anybody ask for that. But the risk to it, making it furnished, you know, that's that's something to be thought about though, too. Cause it's like, you know, I mean, people are not always kind with the places that they stay in for a long time. So how do you factor that in as far as the return on what you're doing here?

How Leasing And Payments Actually Work

Jeff Hurst 22:48

Yeah, I I often describe midterm rentals as the return on furniture. And so, like, if you've if you've got a duplex that's working well as a long-term rental, your risk is the cost of the furniture. And your opportunity is how much does the cost of the furniture increase your, you know, your monthly yield? The uh we typically see if you add furniture to a long term, you're gonna make, you know, at least 30%, maybe closer to 50% more per month. You know, you'll have a little bit more vacancy, but like that's a that's a big number. And so uh and furnishing a midterm rental, this is not furnishing a beach house. You know, think like $7 a square foot. And so, you know, you can furnish a duplex for probably, if you were furnishing one side, you know, you're probably talking about maybe 10 grand, which might pay itself back in six to nine months. And then you might have two to three years of actually just making another 30 to 50 percent every month. And so what I encourage people to do who are in uh who are in your spot is actually like put it on the site unfurnished and tell people you'll furnish it for them when they sign a lease, and then they know they'll get new stuff. You'll know you have a tenant, and they might rather have two twin beds instead of a king in each bedroom or something like that. And that gives you some certainty before you bite the bullet and advertise furniture, and it also gives them uh a benefit so you can kind of have the best of both worlds.

Alex Husner 24:07

We'll be back in just a minute, but first, a word from our premier brand sponsor.

Speaker 4 24:10

Hello, my name is Jesse Lear. I'm the founder of Epicurean Furnished Departments here in Columbus, Ohio. One of the things that makes our company unique is that we operate fully in the midterm rental space. So we cater a lot to medical travelers, executives who are relocating, families who are in the middle of large renovations, folks like that. And we really strive to nail it when it comes to hospitality. That's our main goal. We've been using Host Fully for about five years now, and we tried several other property management softwares before that. We really struggled to find one that would not only accommodate the uniqueness of our midterm rental business model, but also one that would be reliable and then come with a lot of the integrations that we needed with other softwares in order to automate what we were doing with a relatively lean team. Since we came on board with Host Flee, we've really grown as a company, not only in terms of size, but also in terms of sophistication. As we pivoted into the midterm rental space and started to build a reputation in our local community, with that came the need to really be more sophisticated on the back end with how our automations work. Because as a small company, we couldn't afford to hire 30 people right off the bat to take care of a lot of the tasks that needed to be done in order to deliver the type of service we were committed to. So in order to do that, we really needed great software partners who could help us put our best foot forward and automate a lot of recurring tasks rather than hiring a bunch of employees. And that's one of the things that Host Flee really helped us with and has helped us with as we've grown. One of the things that really made a difference for us and our partnership with Host Flee was when they started really working on the data analytics side of the software. And in other words, helping hosts really get a better grasp on what their metrics look like in terms of average daily rate, Rev par. So it's not only saved us a lot of time, it's allowed us to run the business in a way that's been a little bit more organized. I think from the very beginning, the setup process was very smooth. And then as we've grown, they've made it clear that they're very open to feedback. So there's actually a section of their website where users can log in and provide feedback and vote on certain changes and solutions, and they take them pretty seriously from what I've seen. So it's pretty important for us to be able to sort of flex their software to accommodate what we're trying to do. The fact that they're willing to take feedback and add new features and tweak features to accommodate hosts like us is really one of my favorite parts of working with them. I recommend Hostfully to people in my network all the time because I see it as the perfect blend of affordability, features, and reliability.

Speaker 5 26:25

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Jeff Hurst 26:42

I don't think it's more wear and tear than a vacation rental because it's usually one or two people at a time and they're like working all day. Yeah, they're not, yeah, they're not, they're they're working and sleeping, but you are gonna have way more usage. You know, they're there every, you know, if you're doing it well, it's 340, 350 nights a year of rental.

Investment Math And Furniture ROI

Annie Holcombe 26:58

Yeah. Your team shared some data points a couple of weeks ago, some some stuff that you had done. And I remember asking the question, and we were talking about it off camera, like what does has regulations done to impact kind of the growth, the growth that you're seeing? And I I don't know that I I don't know that you ever like had the full data on that, but I was curious if if you are seeing impact there, like the like tangible numbers that you can see and like and specific to New York, did you see a like a large amount of inventory come on the site after New York kind of shut down the short-term side?

Jeff Hurst 27:30

What we saw, and and I'd encourage people, uh, maybe we can put it in the show notes. There is a we just published a kind of first of its kind industry report with air DNA, where we combined their data with ours to try and like demystify what's going on with short-term rentals uh and midterm rentals in the intersection. New York and LA are the biggest examples in their data set of things that have changed a lot since these laws passed. We didn't feel it as much. So we did see more inventory come on in New York. I think because of the tenant type we have, we actually saw more come on in New Jersey. You know, we actually saw more people who needed to get to New York, but maybe couldn't afford the monthly rents that were going to be in New York. And so are commuting in from other places and like, you know, on kind of like the, you know, a train commute. And so, you know, among the fastest markets we had were uh Jersey City and Haboken. Uh but Manhattan was it was fast, but it wasn't nearly as fast as some of the others. And so we're typically more mass market. You're more likely to see us in like commuter hubs, up and coming cities. You know, the biggest trend we have is like AI data hubs and skilled trade needs to move around to places where there's not a lot of lodging. Um, as it relates to regulations, like it's unequivocally there. It's hard for me to say it's this much of it, but like of the 20 fastest growing cities that we observed, all 20 have some sort of short-term regulation. But honestly, like almost every city has some sort of short-term regulation now. Right.

Alex Husner 28:54

Yeah, something.

Jeff Hurst 28:55

It's hard to know for sure what it means. Like, even if what's on the books is loose, they've all put something on the books.

Alex Husner 29:00

Yeah. I'm curious from the advertising perspective. I mean, people are generally going to go on a vacation every year to some extent. People are not necessarily booking a midterm rental every year. Um, but it's something that you have to stay in front of them so that when that is what they're looking for, they remember you guys. But what does it look like from a go-to-market standpoint for Furnish Finder compared to your old days?

Jeff Hurst 29:23

Yeah. Um, you know, if if you go back to the old enough days, it feels more similar in that. It's um, you know, if you go back to like 2010, it actually feels pretty similar in that we've got a handful of core tenant types that get a ton of value out of our products and tell their friends. And so like it's mainly referral. Wow. Um, and that if you went through a divorce and needed a place to stay and found it on Furnish Finder and like it really worked out and helped you stay closer to your kids and your commute and all that, like you'll tell someone else you might go through that unfortunate situation. If you know somebody who's roof caught on fire, plumbing burst whenever, same thing. We're not as heavy in search advertising as um the vacation rental business was. So we do advertise on Google, but it's not as big for us as it was there. We do more, I mean, I've done more podcasts this year than I did in the prior 15. Um, and so we do more PR, we do more um influencer podcast, and we do a lot more on Meta and Facebook. And so I'd say the um, and in general, we spend a lot less money on marketing than the OTAs do. So we we obsess on this. Like if we've got unique inventory and you know it's the cheapest you can find it on our site versus anywhere else, then why shop around? Like there's not a need for a book direct movement if we're letting you book direct. And so we're trying to like fill that niche for this category.

Annie Holcombe 30:38

Yeah. You mentioned um that there wasn't kind of any conferences that that fit this space. So do you think that, I mean, again, we were you know discussing there are managers out there that that are doing this. I mean, I was just consulting with one that's in Indianapolis and she does short-term and midterm. Um, and you know, do you think that there's a potential for you guys to start going back to some of the traditional conferences to be able to represent Furnish Finder and if people want to talk about it, I'll be there.

Jeff Hurst 31:07

Um, and so you know, that there's there's conferences for what I'd say like the uh entrepreneurs and individual investors. There's a midterm rental summit. I went to, it was called National Association of Residential Property Managers, and then it was at uh Colorado Springs at like a you know, the nice hotel there. And like nobody wanted to talk to me. Like nobody had any interest in furnishing properties and making more money. And so, you know, I think there will be more open to listen in short term. And the the niche that's needed to be filled is actually like urban and suburban property managers. Like who's going to go start what used to be these micromanagers who might have, you know, it's it's probably more of a lifestyle business. You might have 20 or 30 homes, but they're all within half an hour of the place you live. And so it's not as though you need your remote manage or figure out all the cleaners as much because you're not cleaning that often. I think that'll end up becoming a pretty big thing. And I think the software component feels way more like short-term than it does long-term, with the exception of you don't need as much merchant solution. You know, we'll see. I'm optimistic we can be the thing that's kind of the connective tissue between the long-term side and the short-term side. But I think the short-term people are gonna come on board faster because I think they're a little bit more agile in the way they think about these things.

Regulations, Markets, And Demand Trends

Alex Husner 32:15

Yeah, I think they're more agile, but I also think that going into 2026, you know, there's a lot of hesitation from this year. You know, the last couple of years have not been super strong, especially compared to COVID. But you've got so many owners that came into owning a short-term rental thinking that they were just gonna be making you know crazy amounts of money all every year, all the time. And that hasn't been the case. And you look at markets that are extremely saturated, like Myrtle Beach, where I am, or Panama City Beach, where Annie is. And, you know, I mean, there's there's so many properties that you it gives you more of an advantage to be a midterm or long-term rental at this point furnished. That there are plenty of, I mean, there's so many people. Myrtle Beach is the number one most relocated to destination in the country and has had that for the last few years. So people are moving down here all the time, and it's very hard to find somewhere to move when you're first looking for a job or figuring out where you want to live. So if you have the option to do that from a condo on the beach, that you know, that homeowner can make, you know, probably more to be honest, if they can have it rented solid for the entire year as a mid or or annual rental through this. I mean, that makes all the sense in the world.

Jeff Hurst 33:21

Yeah, and I I think that the the critical distinction to that use case, you're probably as or more likely to be successful with a condo three blocks from the beach. Like you don't have to have like the real wow factor that you need for that that can't miss occasion of like.

Alex Husner 33:34

Yeah, keep a little more cozy.

Jeff Hurst 33:36

Yeah, you know, you because you because you're you're gonna be working or you're gonna be in school or you're gonna be like, you're not gonna be there to enjoy it as much, but you are actually thrilled to be able to walk to it or you know, bike to the beach or go take a dip, or you know, however that feels. And so, like, I wish there was something here that felt more like a panacea for what in some markets is a short-term rental glut. I don't at all think short-term rental boom is over, but I think it is in a more mature phase. A lot of this inventory is not gonna be a fit. You know, our average ADR for a month is like right around $2,000. You know, it's just, it's a very different people will have overinvested in short term, and then they're thinking they can get that return in midterm with less vacancy. And like, that's just not how the math's gonna work. But there will be a lot of homes that were like kind of okay short terms that might be great midterms. And so, like, we'll be working with people on like, well, how do you find the one that's a good fit? And what are how do we get the expectations right? But I I can't count how many calls I've had that's like, well, when are you gonna be in Aspen and help me rent all these six bedrooms that are skiing ski out? I'm like, never. Like that's just not that's not what we're built to do.

Annie Holcombe 34:40

I live in a very heavy military area. And I feel like the military component of it and and um, you know, some people have tried to be in that space, but getting into military rentals is is a whole different ballpark because you have to have you have to meet certain regulations. I mean, you have to have people have to be vetted by FEMA and like have your ID numbers for government rentals. But do you think that that's an area that you guys could kind of peel off as a separate offering within Furnish Finder to be specific for like military, you know, people who are PCSing out of different markets and going to bases for temporary, that type of thing?

Jeff Hurst 35:12

It's um it's a good market for us, but it's not huge. Um, and what we see is um, you know, because we're a classified site, it's actually a little bit easier. Like we don't have to be in the middle of that certification process for how you get paid by the government. You know, you just have to work it out with the landlord. And I think it opens up that in some of those occasions you might have an officer who's moving, who's actually has transitional funding available that's different than you know what the uh regulations require. And so we're I I see it. I, you know, San Antonio, Fort Hood's really close to us in Austin. Um, but you know, I think it's probably like less than 5% of our business. Um, and I hope we could keep doing a great job at it. It in general, traveling for work's like a third of the business, healthcare is 25%, relocating families is 20%, and then grad students and professors is about 10%. And so between those, you're close to 90. And then military would fall, you know, somewhere in the other, along with what I'd say are like digital nomads and those use cases. And so we're not investing in military, but I know we've got it, and I know that there's opportunity there. We're really investing in being sure corporate understands what we do, and in particular, relocating families. You know, we think that if people put the same energy that investors did into short-term housing, you know, finding, building the ecosystem, investing in, and making it a big lodging use case as they do into midterm, like I think it'll notably move the needle on just like the housing shortage in the US. We'll invest in more duplexes and quadplexes and build things in a way that help house people in a more affordable way, but also add inventory so that there's more flexibility. And we hope we can be a part of that.

Alex Husner 36:48

Absolutely. What from the technology side is missing to make this a uh more reasonable approach that short-term rental hosts can do this within their current software? Like, do they have to do it, have a different software to be able to manage this type of inventory?

Go-To-Market And Distribution Integrations

Jeff Hurst 37:01

It's overwhelmingly our work, not theirs. And so, you know, we we're we'll build these integrations to where adding it feels like adding distribution in any other form, except that you'll have to, you know, go into your time machine and realize we're a subscription classified site. So you'll have to like pay us up front instead of get paid along the way. But it'll start to work just like everything else on that front. You know, you import your content, your description. There'll there'll be some fields we have that might be new to the software layer. You know, in particular, uh as it stands now, we host a we just host a flat monthly rate. You know, we don't have dynamic pricing based on season and how many days and discounts built in for seven versus 14 versus 30 versus 60 versus 90. Like, and so we're a little bit retro in that sense. That's morehouse illow and apartments.com work like, well, what's your monthly rent? It's 2100. Like that's the number. And so we'll have to work on some of that stuff. And then we do have things we care about for some of our use cases. I think things like blackout shades are big. So we have a lot of traveling professionals who work night shifts. And like people knowing that it's comfortable for night and what the parking situation is is probably a little bit more nuanced in our use case than it might be in a vacation rental. And so there may be some need to adjust filters or get content for the tech layer. But otherwise, like it's it's the same thing. And we need to solve our tech problem to make this easier for short term to just turn it on. We need to be sure we got the right demand.

Alex Husner 38:24

Besides just from from your side of things, though, what about on the other side of the house? So, I mean, the management of the property, like it doesn't seem like it's just easy. That's different. But I mean, it's work orders and and you know, monthly accounting and everything else.

Jeff Hurst 38:37

You know, I I think it's just so much easier. You know, your average stay 96 days, you do a deep clean before they get there and a deep clean when they leave. You need to figure out, you know, if something like, you know, if something breaks, you've got to be there to fix it. But it will probably be less frequent than if there's, you know, three families there for spring break, then two adults and a cab there working for three months. And so, you know, you need to be prepared for maintenance, but I don't think there's anything system-wise that's bespoke or unique. You know, you're just doing a lot fewer turnovers. And then the marketing of it is it's less turnkey than marketing your short-term rental because we're not a booking site and we're one of the bigger, probably the biggest player. And so people do hustle a little more of like build a relationship with local insurance placement or know, you know, if you're close to a larger corporate company that might be moving executives in and out or has an intern class as a big use case, things like that. They might hustle more to have those relationships than you would as a short-term rental where you're probably counting on repeats, referrals, your own marketing, and the big OTAs.

Alex Husner 39:39

Yeah. So I feel like most short-term rental companies, if they have long-term, they use a different system to manage the long-term inventory, like App Folio, and there's a there's a few other ones, but I've never really known what the reason is.

Jeff Hurst 39:50

I think some of that is how they connect to apartments.com and Zillow.

Alex Husner 39:54

Oh, okay. Gotcha.

Jeff Hurst 39:55

You know, we hope to be in a spot where we could pull in from Appfolio or TurboTenant or RentReady the same way we'd pull in from Hostfully or Logify or, you know, go pick your uh PMSC.

Annie Holcombe 40:06

Are you guys helping build relationships with, say, you know, the bigger corporations, the big companies, the hospitals, those type of things, or is that all dependent on the host in the community?

Jeff Hurst 40:16

No, most of them will use our site also. But I'd say the most productive hosts, you know, think of it as, you know, in your in your yesteryear before phone numbers, email addresses, and everything were obfuscated by Airbnb, you know, somebody gets a booking from a nursing agency and then they get to know the person who placed the nurse, and then they stay in touch. And maybe maybe that nursing agency reaches out to them directly next time instead of through Furnish Finder. Like that might happen. The same thing might happen with a corporate agent, and the same thing might happen with an insurance agent. And so as we introduce you to first-time customers, you've got an opportunity to turn them into repeat customers and maybe serve them in a different way. And there's more of that than I think you have in short-term rental because travel agents isn't a huge part of the short-term rental ecosystem. Whereas for insurance placements, nursing staffing companies, corporate, it's a pretty big part. And so, you know, if you find out one of those placement agents that says a lot in your neighborhood, like you can turn that into most of your book of business potentially. Not great for Furnish Finder, but like, okay, we need to go help somebody else.

Annie Holcombe 41:19

Yeah. Are you guys um able to connect to GDS?

Jeff Hurst 41:22

Not yet. And we're working on what that should look like. You know, we we've got a you've got the GDS component, but then think of like the separate side as the MLS component, which is actually where as much or more of the content is.

Alex Husner 41:33

Right. Gotcha. What about MLS?

Jeff Hurst 41:35

I I think that's the interesting one. And like that's what's so defensible about what Zillow and CoStar built is like interestingly, there's I don't remember the number. There's I think thousands of MLSs, at least hundreds. It's not like you go connect to it like you do the GDS. You actually have to go connect, you connect to Austin and San Antonio and Houston and you know Corporate.

Alex Husner 41:54

Yeah, that's a heavy lift.

Jeff Hurst 41:56

And so it's it's a heavier lift than I thought it would be. And so we need to figure out if we can do that with a partnership or what that looks like.

Annie Holcombe 42:01

Oh, I didn't realize there wasn't one central hub that just you dialed down by like zip code or something like that.

Jeff Hurst 42:06

No, there's I mean, I I think Zillow believes they're maybe building that hub. Um, but there certainly is you know much more for a long-term unfurnished audience.

Alex Husner 42:15

Wow. Interesting. Interesting. Well, one question that we like to ask people that come on the show, Jeff, and especially someone like you that's been in this and on two different sides, but for a long time. If you could go back and do do this whole career differently or just see things differently from when you started 10 years ago or 15, 20 years ago, what would you have done, knowing everything that you know now?

Property Management Playbook For Midterm

Jeff Hurst 42:37

Oh my gosh. Um, we might need another episode. I think my biggest, my biggest regret in the Verbo journey was like, you know, like the deadly set of envy versus Airbnb. Uh, I think we went through a period where we were just trying to catch up to or be a better version of Airbnb at the things they were clearly better at than us. And uh I, you know, I think we wasted years uh kind of kind of chasing down that rabbit hole. Um and I wish we had earlier really tried to stood for something different, which I think they're doing, still doing a good job of today, around like this complex family uh use case and like be serving a different audience than what Airbnb serves. I think the industry would have been better off for that. And I think we certainly would have been better off as a company if we had realized sooner that maybe we weren't gonna be, weren't gonna be number one. We were gonna play a different role in the ecosystem. So that's probably the top of my list. There might be something around going back to the earlier point of like what's different about being an executive there versus an executive here. The further I got along that career, the more my interactions with customers felt as much like media or big customers as they did talking to someone who was an individual homeowner or maybe an up and coming property manager in a smaller market. And um, it's so hard to keep doing that as you get to scale that feels like billions or tens of billions. Um, but that's what's been refreshing about. This role is like, you know, I spend a remarkable amount of time like in a bigger pockets forum or in LinkedIn and talking to somebody who's got a home and understanding how they use our product and how to make our product better. And I think that's what's been great about the software space. I think the software guys have really done a good job filling that niche. Software's come so far, like even in the last five years. It's amazing, even as an owner using a property manager. It's amazing how much better I was. I think I think two of my properties are on Guesty now. It's just amazing how much better they are. And you can tell they're obsessing over these little use cases over and over. And I think at some point the vacation real industry, and we played a role in that, probably got too focused on the big picture and not enough focused on like a great stay and a great occasion, in particular for the owners. I think for you know, for managers out there, uh, I thought the episode you guys did with Sarah was great, and she and I used to talk about a lot. I think that managers still miss the boat on how much credit they should take for things that aren't bookings.

Alex Husner 44:58

Um, 100%. Yeah.

Jeff Hurst 45:01

And, you know, uh they're they're really, you know, I've got three different managers. None of them are great at what I'd say like is CRM. You know, they've got me on their traveler emails, but none of them are great about like, hey, just, you know, wanted you to know that uh a family had a great stay at your place in South Padre last week. They left a five-star review, and this is how much money you made. It's like you see it in a statement, you feel it at the end of the year, but like that type of stuff builds real connection. And it's like they spend more of the time with the connectivity with uh uh travelers, you know, with the guests than they do with the owners. And they're clearly good at it because they're good at the guest side. And I think they can do a lot more with the owners and really lean into like, hey, I'm protecting a half million dollar or a million dollar asset for you, and here's what I've done. And like, aren't you glad I'm here? Um, and having self-managed for a decade, like I'm very glad they're there. And I know how much work it is, but I don't think most people do.

Annie Holcombe 45:52

Yeah, I think um I've been doing um, I left kind of the corporate world too last year and started my own consultancy, um, Annie and Co. And one of the things I've been working with people on is just that like owner relation piece. And I think with AI, AI is gonna remove some of the monotony and some of the things that have to get done, but it's gonna allow people to be able to like foster those relationships that they might not have been doing because they were so focused on the guest and sort of the property level and just really not touching and building with the owners. And so I think that you know, Sarah says it really well about how just you know being proactively communicating with your owners is really important. And we had um John Suzuki on and a couple of times we love talking with him because he's such a relationship person. And I think now that we're diving so much more into AI, that that connection, people are craving that even more. And I think owners want it just as much. And the managers need to be able to go to those owners in good times and bad times. But if they do that, that relationship is solid and they're not gonna go anywhere. And I just I think that the more technology can take some of the stuff away, it's gonna allow people to be the freedoms to build those relationships. That is the core of hospitality. And whether you're renting for a week or you know, 90 days or beyond, hospitality is still part of all of it.

Alex Husner 47:04

Yeah. Well, and that's the difference between a co-host versus a property manager. It's like I think homeowners sometimes just think that a property manager is really just a co-host, that they're just managing bookings. They're getting bookings or managing the bookings. There's so much more to it, you know, and the property managers that are doing it right, they're showing every time they go to the property and they're showing that they don't charge for that because it's like you want them to understand like they're not just sitting in this building all, you know, all day long and not going to your property and not having to deal with the guests and not even have to deal with the guests, but have to, you know, provide the great hospitality on your behalf. I mean, there's so much more to it.

Jeff Hurst 47:38

You know, and I I thought the um the insight around like I love it when they suggest things that aren't broken. And it also creates a dynamic where when something is broken, it doesn't feel like the only time they reach out is that something's broken.

Alex Husner 47:51

Yeah.

Jeff Hurst 47:52

It's like here's an idea, here's something that went well, here's an improvement you might make. Oh, the AC you got to replace it, it's broken. Sorry about that. And it's like, okay, well, the last three conversations were cool, and I'll fix the issue.

Alex Husner 48:08

Yeah, you don't have to say, like, don't worry, nothing's wrong. But how are you today?

Jeff Hurst 48:13

You know, and I think that that that piece, you know, that piece in midterm is different because, like, for the most part, you're gonna hear every 90 days.

MLS, GDS, And Tech Gaps

Alex Husner 48:21

Yeah, you're not gonna do it. Because the stuff in the middle is the kitchen same, or it's yeah, the hospitality is different there. Well, super interesting to talk to you today, Jeff. And I'm so glad that you reached out to come on the show. This has been um definitely something we've been interested in and excited to have you on. But if anybody wants to get in touch with you and learn more about Furnish Finder or put their property on the site, what's the best way for them to reach out?

Jeff Hurst 48:43

Yeah, uh, anyone who, you know, if you're uh working in the software space or doing connectivity or a property manager who wants to connect directly, uh, partnerships at furnishfinder.com. If you want to get a hold of me, LinkedIn is usually the best. I pay attention, I'll get back to you, and would love to hear from people. And then, you know, sign up on the site, um, you know, like any other site except um a subscription. You know, we've got an list your property link in the top right, and you just go give us your information and get started. You know, if you've got a listing anywhere else, it's cut and paste, very straightforward. You know, the hardest part's the photos. And the um, you know, what I'd encourage people to check out is the air DNA report that's on our site, but also we've got a tab called Market Insights that'll help you understand what type of tenants are in your city and you know how many people are searching versus how much inventory is there, how much rent do people get by bedroom type, just to get a feel so you don't come in with the wrong expectations. I think the um people from short term that have had bad experience with Furnish Finder are usually that they have the wrong expectations. It's like, well, I made $110,000 as a short term, so if I can do that as a midterm and only have three turnovers, that'd be great.

Annie Holcombe 49:48

It's like not realistic.

Jeff Hurst 49:50

How about $72,000 in four turnovers? You know, whatever it looks like.

Alex Husner 49:54

Yeah, the the math behind the equations is always interesting, but awesome. Well, thank you for coming on, Jeff. Uh, if anybody wants to get in touch with Annie and I, you can go to alexandanipodcast.com. And until next time, thanks everybody.