The FASO Podcast
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The FASO Podcast
185 Ned Mueller — Patience, Perseverance, Practice, & Passion
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For today's episode, we sat down with Ned Mueller, an American artist and longtime illustrator-turned-fine-painter, known for his strong drawing, expressive plein air and figurative work, and decades of teaching and mentoring artists around the world. He shares his lifelong journey in art, from drawing as a child and training as an illustrator at Art Center School of Design to eventually transitioning into a fine artist with a distinct voice of his own. He talks candidly about facing serious health challenges, chronic pain, and burnout risks, and how having something meaningful to get up for—his painting practice and the support of his wife Karen—has kept him going. Drawing on decades of experience, Ned emphasizes the “four P’s”: patience, perseverance, practice, and passion, urging artists to find subjects they truly love so their excitement shows in the work. He underscores the importance of strong fundamentals—especially drawing and values—explaining that you must first learn to paint what you know, then what you see, and ultimately what you feel. Ned also advises artists to simplify by thinking in big shapes, values, and edges, to do lots of small studies (in plein air and the studio), and to keep sharpening their skills through critique groups, workshops, and consistent practice. Throughout the conversation, he offers grounded yet hopeful insight into building a sustainable art life: do the work, keep learning, accept the hard realities of the art market, and let your love for painting carry you through the long haul. Finally, Ned tells us about his online classes!
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Sort of the four Ps: patience, perseverance, practice, and do something you love. No, find something you love, because, and you can get excited about, because if you're not excited about your pain, it's going to show.
Laura Arango Baier:Welcome to the Faso podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world in order to hear their advice and insights. For today's episode, we sat down with Ned Mueller, an American artist and longtime illustrator turned fine painter, known for his strong drawing, expressive planar and figurative work, and decades of teaching and mentoring artists around the world. He shares his lifelong journey in art, from drawing as a child and training as an illustrator at Art Center School of Design, to eventually transitioning into a fine artist with a distinct voice of his own, he talks candidly about facing serious health challenges, chronic pain, and burnout risks, and how having something meaningful to get up for, his painting practice, and the support of his wife, Karen, has kept him going. Drawing on decades of experience, Ned
emphasizes the four Ps:patience, perseverance, practice, and passion, urging artists to find subjects that they truly love, so their excitement shows in the work. He underscores the importance of strong fundamentals, especially drawing and values, explaining that you must first learn to paint what you know, then what you see, and ultimately what you feel. Ned also advises artists to simplify by thinking in big shapes, values, and edges, to do lots of small studies in plein air and its studio, and to keep sharpening their skills through critique groups, workshops, and consistent practice. Throughout the conversation, he offers grounded yet hopeful insight into building a sustainable art life. Do the work, keep learning, accept the hard realities of the art market, and let your love for painting carry you through the long haul. Finally, Ned tells us about his online classes. Welcome, Ned, to the Faso podcast. How are you today?
Ned Mueller:Pretty good, thanks very much, Laura. It's great to be here. It's a sunny good day. Summer's here, and yeah,
Laura Arango Baier:yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah, I'm excited to have you, because your work is so stunning. Every image that I see is so beautifully composed. I love your multi-figure compositions, and just capturing life the way that you capture it is just.. it's, it's so pleasing to the eyes, so I'm really grateful and excited to have you on.
Ned Mueller:Well, thanks for those great words, I appreciate them. Yeah, yeah, I'm looking back, I don't know how I did it. Look back in the 85 85 I'm looking back more than I'm looking forward. So, I, I see what I did, and I look at some of my.. I couldn't.. I can't do what I did 50 years ago.
Laura Arango Baier:I just
Ned Mueller:don't have the energy, or you know, whatever. So, I do what I can do.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah, yeah, that's how it is. I feel like that's one of those natural things about, you know, getting older and also having a career that is so exciting. I mean, being an artist, it's never like a never-ending array of problem solving in all the senses, and of course, we change, we evolve, our work evolves, and that's just the natural part about being a human being. But actually, I did want to ask you, if you don't mind telling us, you know, me and our listeners, a little bit about who you are and what you do.
Ned Mueller:Well, I call myself an artist, probably, you know, but I, I had such a nice career as an illustrator, and my training was all in that direction, so I mean, I've, I've had to make changes becoming a fine artist, but yeah, I started young. I was drawing when I was four years old, and gosh, in school they gave me assignments to do Thanksgiving decorations, Christmas. I got encouragement from my teachers, my parents, and my friends, you know, I didn't hear some of the, get some of the horror stories you hear what some kids have gone through, and you know, so really lucky that way, and I. And my big break was I got admitted to one of the best art schools in the country Art Center School of Design, and that was great, and I got an illustration, and now I'm older and don't have the energy, and I've got this rare autoimmune disease that I, this pancreatitis that I have to get operated on every month or so, and then I've got chronic pain from nerve damage, so it's limited me, which is really made me frustrated, and really probably the hardest thing to adjust to, you know, from just being healthy for so long, you know, and gosh, but I, but right, like right now I'm feeling pretty good, and I get work done. We go to drawing sessions twice a week, and then I'm getting stuff done in the studio, and so right now, you know, doing okay.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah, it's good that you, you do what you can when you can, and that's what really matters, because, of course, painting can be really motivating as well. It gives you something to enjoy, and wake up in the morning and say, I want to continue this piece, and I feel like I have the energy to do it, and I think that's that's really great. I think it makes a huge difference.
Ned Mueller:Yeah, we have something I think I told it before, we went to a pain clinic at the VA, and the instructor was pretty rough. You guys are in here, you have chronic pain, and chronic pain means chronic pain, you're going to have it the rest of your lives. And boy, everybody kind of shuddered, you know, because you always have hope. Oh, it's going to go, but no, often it doesn't. And, and, and the whole thing was that I have something to get up for in the morning, and also I had my artwork, and half of them didn't, and half of them were on opioids, and that wasn't - they just had nothing to get up for, I guess. Even if you have to get up for a peanut butter sandwich, it's something, but the other thing I've got, my dear wife Karen, that she's a heck of an artist, and she, she really looks after me. Yeah, she.. I wouldn't be here if one for her.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah, it's good to have a support system.
Ned Mueller:Oh, it really is. Artists need artists too. Yeah,
Laura Arango Baier:yes. Yeah, community artists, just someone who can understand as well. Yeah, yeah. And I actually did want to ask you as well, can you tell us a little bit more about your path as an artist, you know, how it began and where it continued?
Ned Mueller:Yeah, like I was saying, and I was drawing, I drew figures and landscapes, mostly drawing, and then when I got in high school, took art, and luckily had a pretty good teacher, and he saw I had had a little bit of talent, so he kind of mentored me along, and that was helpful, so I was doing more painting, and then I went to, I was in Bozeman, Montana, in the state, one of the state colleges there, Montana State, so all my friends were going to school there, and my parents moved to California, so I wanted to stay, but their art department, everything was getting into modern art, and I was really one naive person, and just didn't understand it or the purpose of it, so I love to draw, so I just took architecture for three quarters, but wasn't totally happy there, and in the middle of the winter quarter, a bunch of my friends were fed up with winter and everything, and they decided they're going to drop out of school and go to San Francisco, live on the beach. So I had, what the heck, that sounds like a good idea. Didn't know what direction I was going. But I, I stayed and finished the quarter, at least my dad would have killed me if I dropped out, and, and so that's how I got in California, and it lasted about eight months living on the beach, our parents were getting pretty disgusted of us, so they all went back to Montana, and my parents were living just north of San Francisco, and basically my dad said, "Well, what, what do you think you want to do? He said, "I don't know, I've always wanted to be an illustrator or an artist, but I had no confidence, I don't think I could ever do it, and he said, Well, okay, we get you in an art school, we're going to get you in the very best one, because that's what you're going to compete against when you get out. So that was really good advice. And anyways, we interviewed some other schools and letters, but anyways we drove down to Los Angeles and interviewed Art Center School, and I just had a crummy little cardboard portfolio, some drawings, and a couple of paintings, and they saw something, and they gave, they accepted me, and gave me a scholarship, so I was just overwhelmed. I thought, geez, you know, I'm in this art school with people from all over the world, and yeah, and it was, it was really something, and every teacher was a working professional, so they knew what you needed to know, and it was tough. I mean, they gave you a lot of assignments, nobody was looking to see if you already had four assignments by another teacher or other teacher. Anyways, that it was even tougher to get out of it, had really high standards, and they asked my one of my best friends to leave after six semesters, but they kind of did him a favor, because he wanted to coach football, so that turned out well for him. And I remember the sixth semester I didn't hand in one assignment, they made with your scholarship, had to go straight through, no breaks, and I just had no gas in the tank. It was just.. I never had that experience. I just hit this wall anyways. They called me into the office, and well, this is it. Gonna get kicked out, and apparently this was not unusual, even happened to older students, and they said you just settle down, get back this next semester, and you know, get some work done. So I did graduated, and I forgot the question. My wandering off of it,
Laura Arango Baier:no, no, you're, we're discussing, you know, your entire trajectory of becoming an artist,
Ned Mueller:yeah. And anyway, so after that, that was 1963 and it was just before Vietnam, and so they're having the draft and all that stuff, and you know, if you're in college, you were safe, but once you're out, you were put on a list, so most of us are trying to get in the reserves, and including myself, but two of my best friends went in the Marine Corps reserves, anyways, everything was filled up and the only thing left was the Marine Corps Reserve. So I went across the street and signed up, and went to boot camp a couple months later, and I, after a month and a half, two months, I got pneumonia really bad, and ended up in the hospital. Couple guys died next to me. I didn't know it was that serious. Anyways, all of a sudden I couldn't sleep, and that went on and on, and you know, I don't know, I was really worried about it. Talk to a chaplain, he said, "Just go back to training and you'll be okay, and I did, and it did got worse and worse. Anyways, I ended up with a. Breakdown got out, got out the medical honorable discharge, and it's a long story. What happened there was the issues even before I went in, which I wasn't aware of, repressed a lot of anger and shame. I won't go into all that, but anyways, it didn't help, and ended up just literally like a vegetable, and I admitted myself to the hospital and got some good treatment, got out, got back on my feet, when you know, started out working as a laborer, as a, as a carpenter, started doing work, you know, weekends and nights of my portfolio, and going to drawing sessions, and you know, getting some confidence back, and going to San Francisco for interviews, and so slowly getting freelance work, and this, that, and you know, doing getting better assignments, and gosh, I did everything I was, I did architectural illustrations, I did storyboards, I was a courtroom artist, you know, you do anything that comes along to make money, and the whole key there was not that you had to be the very best, which was kind of my goal, for better or for worse, but that you were reliable, that you'd get the job done, because sometimes there were millions of dollars at stake, and you know some of those, the advertising, so, so I, you know, I was good at getting it done, and yeah, and I did that for 25 years, yeah, and got some great assignments, and gosh, I did at one point, I did murals for the Olive Garden restaurant, just traveling all over the country doing, I got so I could do a six by 12 foot mural in one day, I mean, they weren't great works of art, but they weren't bad either. They're pretty good, and yeah, and so I, and I was doing the thing, because I could draw well, and I want to say here, for drawing well, you don't necessarily have to draw the figure, I have landscape friends, some of the best in the country, and we talk on the fall star now that's oh, Ned, you know, you know, you do figures and portraits and all this stuff, and I just do landscapes, I said, yeah, but you don't want to do figures you love and do great landscapes, so cut that out. And the point is, if like, if you draw, if you were drawing landscapes or even couches or whatever you were doing, after a few years your eye gets so good you could do a good figure, because all this business is is developing our eye, our judgment, and whether you're drawing it, I mean, if you're going to do figures, you know it's good to go to drawing sessions and you know get good at that, but yeah, you're just developing your eye. The thing of doing figures, because it's so difficult, and if you don't love it, you know, you're just not going to probably survive it, really, because it is a lot of hard work and a long time, and, but if you get good at that, you can. I was able to draw horses and other animals and everything, because I could do the figure, because it was so hard. And, yeah, so it's not just you have to draw the figure, you know, you draw anything, you're going to get good.
Laura Arango Baier:It's very true, and that's definitely something that you gain with illustration, since illustration is very much, you got to figure out how to do all the things, since most of the time you don't know what jobs you're going to get, and it's good to. Had a job, or you can do all of the things that they're asking for, you know,
Ned Mueller:yeah, but then I, you know, illustration started turning to digital, and photography was kind of taking over magazines and stuff, so, so I was wondering what's going to happen, but anyways, I was coming home from a camping or painting trip in Montana, and there's a western show in Ellensburg, Washington. I just pulled off this curiosity and went in there, met some of the artists, and geez, they were, you know, doing paintings of stuff that I enjoyed doing, and I thought, geez, what the heck's going on here? And talked to the other artists, showed him my work, and they said, gosh, you know, because I had gotten pretty good as an illustrator, and they says, "Wow, yeah, you should, if you're interested, get involved with this, you know. So I kind of hit some of the shows running, because it's just that I getting into fine arts, like one of the first big shows was this Northwest Rendezvous in Montana, and I had to submit three times because my work was just a little too commercial, you know. It kind of, as an illustrator, you have to develop certain techniques and stuff you can rely on, because you can't get an assignment and then do a bad painting, and so you had to have some skill levels, and you know some discipline and consistency, so I had that, but in the fine arts it was not so much that you know, looking for something you know that really sets you aside and makes you look different, more more creative, so and I started hanging out with more artists, so to speak, and, and, and just sing, and some of the beautiful work. Gosh, I was started doing plein air, and, and God accepted in the plein air painters of America, and boy, some of those people were just doing wonderful things, and I said, yeah, you know, here I'm sitting here, you know, very nice work, but not really what I'd like to do, so being exposed to that, you know, I think, and if you can, and most artists are pretty open and helpful and friendly, be because it's like, you know, if you just kind of stay off by yourself, you know, you may not be challenged, but if you're with a group and you're painting with people that are better than you in some regards, or whatever, or whole lot of things that kind of makes you try to lift your game, you know. It's like tennis, if you or anything, if you play with somebody you can beat every time, you're not going to get much better. So that was good to me, and I just got out there, and I see other artists around here in the area that just for some reason they didn't want to go, but particularly this area, when I got here, some of the other established artists, and really says, Ned, you got to get your stuff out of state, because if you just hang around here, you know you're going to be selling your paintings for three or $400 So I did that and saw what I needed to do to get better and to advance there wasn't no internet. Then you pretty much advanced by how good you got. The better you got, the better galleries you got in, the better shows. So it's changed now. Yeah, it's still a lot of that, but gee whiz, yeah, yeah, I don't know how people keep up with it. It's really, it's difficult, you know? I do a little bit. I told other artists or other people, boy, I just.. and they told me, "Wow. Tonight, well, you're doing a lot more than most people, and I guess I guess I was, and still am a little bit, but this point I'm just kind of painting what I want to paint, you know, and you know, don't care so much whether it sells or
Laura Arango Baier:not,
Ned Mueller:so it's kind of a nice position to be in, yeah, yeah,
Laura Arango Baier:yeah, and it's, I think it's so serendipitous that you ran into the, the Western painters when you were, you know, just hanging out, and then suddenly you went from illustration into fine art, do you find that there were some, because you did mention that your work was a little too commercial, but were there other aspects of illustration, technically speaking, that you felt really set you apart from other fine artists who hadn't had an illustration background?
Ned Mueller:I had that training, where drawing, you know, I, and I had the love of drawing, and I could draw well, and well, I might mention, and I read once in the paper one of the one of the fine art schools here was getting a new director. I interviewed him in the paper, and he says, "You know, we're not going to teach skills here, and he said, "But they get in the way of creativity, and I thought that's crazy in a way, he's right, anyways. In my example, I, I could draw so well, it kind of became a crutch. I thought it enabled me to do, and I was, because, namely, I could do watercolors, I did watercolors, gouache, acrylic, pastels, and oils, because I had this idea to be this great artist, you should be able to do everything and anything, and I finally woke up one day and realized nobody else is trying to do this. It's insane, you know, the most, most people are maybe doing two or three mediums, you Yeah, but one of my friends, the name was Bill Reese, and he was kind of the dean of artists in the Northwest, but he could do everything, he could sculpt on top of it, and watercolor and oils and pastels and watercolor, but he, he was a rare one, so anyways, I cut it down, I quit doing acrylics and and watercolor and kind of kept it to oils and pastels, and so I was mostly doing, doing that, and I was doing a lot of, I love to do portraits, you know, and I'm pretty good at it, because I love it, you know, and kind of like people like to do figures and portraits anyway, so I, but I didn't want to ever do it for a living, because that's kind of what you get caught up doing too much of, so I just do it mostly now to keep my skills sharp, and because I enjoy it, you know, I
Laura Arango Baier:like that you just mentioned sharp skills. Sorry, yeah, it is one of those things that, um, we do have to keep honing the blade, so to speak, no matter how long it's been.
Ned Mueller:Yeah, it is, um yeah, and, and even if I get away from doing it for, like, with my health reasons, I wasn't able to do things much for a month or so, not go back and do it, and, Jesus, you know, start a three hour, the first, first, we'll one or two, I just couldn't get with it, but it took, and it just took two or three times. You start getting back to it. It's, it's always there, doesn't leave you, but and you don't lose it. I don't think you lose it. It just takes a little while, a little rusty, and you just get back on the horse, so to speak.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's one of those things where I think you mentioned last time, it's like riding a bike a little bit, yeah, where no. Maybe, maybe at first it feels kind of awkward, and then you know you're back in on it in no time, but yeah, and I also did want to ask too, because you mentioned early on when you were, you know, getting jobs or like getting back into illustration after your time being ill, what did you find that maybe you had a little bit of burnout from school as well, and then have you had maybe some sort of like burnout as well throughout your career? And then if you did, how did you overcome, you know, that feeling of burnout or artist block?
Ned Mueller:Oh boy, that's a tough one, because I did a lot of different things, like, you know, I think if you're doing the same thing too much, or you probably get burnt, but I, I was doing different subjects, so I think that sort of lessened it, I would get, I don't want to recall ever getting totally burned out. I just did a portrait workshop this last weekend, and then we went to our drawing session Monday, and I just. I was just flat, you know, and I just wasn't excited about anything, you know. So, yeah, so that it happens, but I've never experienced that total thing. And two, I traveled quite a bit. I love the travel because I love painting different cultures, and I just had a curiosity for that, and I wanted to, and I wanted to expand beyond, you know, just the United States, and I wanted to see the world, and know, and do other things, so yeah, I was always, always busy with something, I mean, it was never, never a quiet air, like I never took a vacation, I think it was for almost 20 years, that's really dumb, but I think I said I was driven, you know, I didn't want to fall behind,
Laura Arango Baier:yeah. But why do you, why do you say that it was done to not take a vacation,
Ned Mueller:not take a vacation?
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah, why was it
Ned Mueller:done? You really need a break, and you know you need to get a break away from doing it, but even when we did go on a trip or something, I always had my camera, I was always looking to find a scene that I could paint later, so even then I wouldn't get away from it. Just to, yeah, I think I think that's that's healthy. I don't, I think someone like me, that's you know, doing it every day, and you know that's not healthy. I wasn't healthy.
Laura Arango Baier:That's good to know. Um, I think I agree. I think it's important to rest as much as it is, you know, to do a lot, but I totally understand. I think a lot of people, like you, especially who are extremely driven, just find it hard to not keep going, you know. It's tough. Yeah.
Ned Mueller:Now I have to, because of my health issue. I have to, so, and I just ask Karen. I still get this urge to, you know, go off someplace and do this and do that, and I'm not even capable of it. can. If she wasn't here, I'm sure I'd be dead.
Laura Arango Baier:That's very dark. Well, I'm glad that she's there
Ned Mueller:trying to climb this cliff to get a better view of the landscape or something, yeah, but that's I survived, I got lucky, yeah, fell off a couple of not tall cliffs, but short cliffs, and that didn't help.
Laura Arango Baier:Goodness,
Ned Mueller:I mean, they were just things. Yeah, I did a lot of.. I love. Backpacking and hiking in the mountains, so yeah, and coming down on a rough trail, you know, it's so easy to get in a hurry and stumble, and you know, you hit your head on a rock, it can kill you, so I did that a couple times, and managed to fall in a bush.
Laura Arango Baier:At least it was a bush and not a rock. Yeah, yeah. And who says that artists don't have risky jobs, especially if you do go hiking to find the perfect view and the perfect spot to paint, besides, you know, using toxic pigments and toxic cleaning materials. Yeah, I think we have a very strange kind of risky job.
Ned Mueller:Yeah, yeah, it is. Karen just finally got me off of turpentine, what is it? Can't think the name of it, but it's, it's, it's better, it's healthier.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah, there's a, there's a few brands that are good, there's mineral spirits, or odorless mineral spirits, there's Gamsol, that's what
Ned Mueller:I was using, but she, she thought I needed to get rid of that, because there's no such thing as odorless, apparently.
Laura Arango Baier:No, there isn't. It's good to have an air purifier, or just like not be anywhere near it for many hours, have good air circulation. Yeah, it can be, could be really risky.
Ned Mueller:Then, when I was doing pastels on top of it, and again, all that powder going all over.
Laura Arango Baier:Yep, you need to have some sort of suction thing, like a vacuum underneath, so you're not breathing that in, because that it's also gonna get really dangerous.
Ned Mueller:Learn a mask, and, yep,
Laura Arango Baier:yeah, wear one of those like really intense masks with, like, the, you know, like for people who do woodwork, but yeah, besides that, I wanted to ask you also, when you were transitioning into becoming a fine artist from illustration, did you start making paintings to work with galleries, while you were still taking on illustration jobs, or did you just cut, you know, very dry between the two?
Ned Mueller:Oh, I was doing both. Yeah, doing both. Yeah, I guess it slowed my transition up, you know, and I, and I, and I hear a lot, a lot of people say, well, illustrators make really good fine artists, because they, they have good skills drawing, and I think better one can draw, the better one can design, you know, I think that sharpens your design skills. I, I think all that's drawing even probably makes you more sensitive to color. You know, I've heard that before. I don't know if that's true or not, probably for some people.
Laura Arango Baier:If you've been enjoying the podcast, and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The Faso Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories, and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you're a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn, and spark new ideas, and whether you're stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don't miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next Faso show webinar is coming up on the 18th of June with our special guest, Timothy Tyler. You can find the signup link in the show notes. Yeah, I mean, when I was in school, we used to say you can't out render a bad drawing, you just can't. So, I agree, I think drawing is the fundamental thing to learn, and everything just comes from there. And I agree, I think a lot of the illustrators that I've seen, who have become fine artists, they're really excellent composers, just from the get-go. I feel like there's something with the extreme amount of work that illustrators have to produce that the more you do it, the more you pick up the intuition of how to design a really good image, whether it's just drawing or value, and then, of course, adding color on top, because I know a lot of illustrators take some sort of, you know, color class where they have to learn, okay, well, these are the colors that represent this, and if you want more mystery, you add more green, or if you want more of this, then you know the image would have. Include that, although that's, you know, I haven't personally been in an illustration program, so I'm not totally sure, but I feel like every illustrator I've seen has this magical ability to just get it, and I'm like, did I go the wrong way? Should I have been an illustrator
Ned Mueller:there for years? You know, Norman Rockwell, one of the greatest illustrators of all time, they made fun of him because, but jeez, his illustrations, as far as I'm concerned, they were fine art. I mean, he designed those things, he would do value studies and color studies, and, and full-size drawings of things before he did the finish, and I've got some back there, my wall, that geez, they are just, they're just beautiful paintings, and tell a story, and credibly designed. Yeah, that's one thing that getting the fine arts. Maybe it's the next thing, but a drawing, but the process of getting an image, we, you know, if you get an assignment, you had to make sure you're on the same page as the art director, so we did value studies, we did color studies, just to make sure you know we were doing what they want, and so I got in the habit of doing those, and I still do those in my fine art work. I find out a lot of my fine art, they don't do those things, they didn't expose to that, but I just remember, you know, the important value is the old masters worked in black and white for four years before they went in color, and when I was in art school it was two years, and our first color assignment was three white eggs on a light blue plate, but boy, we learned about value, because when people get into color, the first thing they miss is the value, amongst other things, but it's really makes a difference. Yeah, so I use it in my paintings.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah, yeah, I feel like hierarchically, you know, to have a really good composition, a lot of people, and it's natural because we're so attracted to color, a lot of people, you know, they think, oh well, color, but in reality it's so, it's so, so, so much more about value and drawing and just placement of those values in the right places to keep the eye on the canvas, so that you know the color just add it's like the cherry on top of everything, and to your point also about how illustration maintained that you know rigorous sort of like value study to you know, just doing a lot of studies, a lot of tests before the final piece. It's very funny, because I find that that's actually something that the old masters also did, but at some point, I think, you know, at the turn of the century, when unfortunately fine arts was seen as a dying thing, and illustration was able to maintain what I like to call the past the torch, so to speak. I feel like illustration kept it, but a lot of the more modern art schools seem to just avoid it completely, especially when modernism really took over, because it became more like, oh, well, you can have whatever process you want, because we don't want to limit you, but I feel like that really alienated a lot of people who wanted to pursue fine art and really needed that type of support that illustrators got in their process and the type of process that they maintained, so I find it really interesting that now we're like hopefully going full circle, where a lot more fine artists today are doing color studies and value studies and testing things, which is important. Yeah,
Ned Mueller:yeah, so I think more people are doing it and coming up with our paintings. The exception is like a plein air thing, which I did a lot of that, and I was doing that, I was just starting off and just starting out and painting cold turkey and. I, you know, had probably had more failures than successes, but then I started going back, at least getting a something down, a note or something, and you know, not getting so many clunkers, but there's a fine line where there's a lot to be said just for being spontaneous, but you find a lot of the really good solid painters are doing studio work, they're they have the time to do the studies and everything, and then they'll have this big beautiful great painting that they've thought out well, and it's just gorgeous. Yeah,
Laura Arango Baier:yeah, I think it's, it's a bit of a balance too, because, like, yeah, of course, approaching a painting, it's important to keep in mind the composition, but then at the same time I don't know if it's happened to you, where you look at a painting that's almost too perfect, it becomes a little bit boring. So it is also nice to keep some of that spontaneity and some of those little accidents that can happen sometimes, where you brush kind of strange, and it's not really what's happening in reality, but it works, and at that point you know you start having a bit more of a dialog with, okay, do I want this to be perfect, quote unquote, which isn't really a thing, or do I want this to be something more alive, and I think that's, you know, later on, after someone paints more, it's the type of conversation they have with their work,
Ned Mueller:yeah, yeah, they find it that in all my teaching over the years of talking to other artists was kind of three stages, people start out painting what they know, you know, they know the sky is blue and grass is green and in the shadows or cool to go in the shade to get cool, so they paint all that, and and then you get them to paint what they see, but sometimes the sky is yellow or orange, the grass is brown, and most shadows are warm, so no, except for early morning, and sun goes down, and so that makes makes a difference, and they start painting what they see, they start learning more about color and harmony and all that, and then the third stage is the best stage, you paint what you feel more, it gets a more little more emotion in it, but most people want to do the third stage before they've gone through the other two, so yeah, I know, if I ever told people I was gonna, they're gonna do value studies for a week, five days, nobody would sign up, no, you know, because they all want to get into color and everything, so you kind of have to once you explain it to him, show him it makes sense. Yeah,
Laura Arango Baier:yeah, yeah. And that's very interesting, because I did my first ever attempt at Plan Air yesterday, and I was first of all shocked at how overwhelming it is. It's windy, there's geese walking next to you, thinking you have food. It's, and of course, I had to stop because it started raining, but I decided, okay, I'm not going to overwhelm myself. I'm just going to paint on a white canvas with Van Dyke brown and with some mineral spirits, just so I'm only focusing on value, just trying to lay things out, and I wouldn't say it was a bad attempt. I'm actually kind of happy with it, but I think, yeah, just focusing on value alone was a challenge, trying to decide, okay, what do I want to bring forward? What do I want to push back? What do I want the center of attention to be? Where do I want to protect my lightest value? Just with that, it's, it's a lot to handle with color. I think I would have been so stressed out, I would have panicked
Ned Mueller:the first time I went out with friends. Jeez, I have, I was trying to paint some trees, and I tried to paint the branches and all the leaves, and after a couple hours it was just a mess, and I looked at their work, and the hour and a half, they had some beautiful paintings. You learn how to paint, you know, 500 leaves with one brush stroke,
Laura Arango Baier:so
Ned Mueller:yeah, it's good to get out there, because it forces you to simplify, you know, forces you to get stuff down, so you can see what's right and what's wrong, you know, get the darn thing covered,
Laura Arango Baier:yeah,
Ned Mueller:yeah, and once I found in my own work, in my students' work, once they could think more shapes instead of details, they've really started thinking more like an artist, you know, getting the big relationships down, and it makes a big difference. Yeah,
Laura Arango Baier:yeah, the big masses, and the just having the right location for things before anything else. Yeah, it's extreme, like, wow, extremely important. I think the other part that I was panicking a little bit about was the changing sunlight, which, of course, inevitable, we are rotating quite fast. So I also ignored that, because if I didn't ignore it, I think I would also lose my mind just because you know I was just focusing, you know, I'm just going to get the drawing because there's this beautiful building, I'm just going to get the building, and some of the really nice trees that I see close by, I don't want to overwhelm myself with, oh, and now the sun is over here, so let me start putting that, like, no, stop,
Ned Mueller:just go out with a 12 by 16 panel and divide it up into four six by eights, and just as does it, you can then with, you know, and on paint it with a number six or eight brush, no ones or twos, and just forces you to see the big color relationships, little, and just concentrate on getting big color relationship, and you can, you, you'll find out you can do one of them in half an hour. After a while, yeah. And don't try to do anything big outside, maybe after you've done it five or six years.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah, that's good. I think my,
Ned Mueller:you're going to learn more by doing where you can do 10 eight by 10s or six by eights, and 10 of them, maybe a day or two, instead of doing a large one that takes you all day, you know, you can get 10 paintings done in one day, as opposed to doing one in one or two days. I mean, there's a lot to be said, you got to blow it up, and everything changes, but you know, and I've talked a lot, a lot of other artists said, you know, that's really, really made a difference for them.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah, yeah. Actually, the canvas that I used, I made sure that I wouldn't, because I only had like a piece of loose canvas with it, was already pre-gessed. Well, it's oil primed, and I just taped it down. I was like, I'm not even going to use this entire piece of canvas, I'm just going to use maybe half of it, and that made it a lot easier, but because I got rained on and it was a pretty bad storm, I could only get like 45 minutes to an hour in, so I had to abandon it, but, but, yeah, I'll try the four little ones, just, you know, kind of like when I did color studies for portraits, where it's you're not worried about getting the features perfect, you're not worrying about the drawing too much, just major placements, major values, and then go from there. Yeah,
Ned Mueller:same thing.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah,
Ned Mueller:doing a portrait, if you get the, if you get the shape, the shadow shape, right? You get a likeness, you get the right color and right shadow side of a tree, and the light side, it's going to be a pine tree or a maple that has that look, and yeah, just makes all the difference in the world, but trouble is, we all, you know, and that's there's why it's being a self-taught artist is really tough, because you know you can get with somebody, can really save you a lot of time, you know, can.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah, yeah, and time is something we don't get back money, we hopefully do, but time is not, time is non-refundable. So I agree, it's good to get someone that can help who is knowledgeable, but then actually speaking of money, for your career, what were some of the ways that you were able to maintain some of your income as an artist? Was it primarily galleries? Was it commission work? Teaching?
Ned Mueller:Yeah, I did. Yeah, I did commission work. I started teaching early. They had me teaching even when I was at Art Center. They started a Saturday group for some of the better high school students there, and they asked me if I'd do it, and I never taught before to know what to do, but I've found I enjoyed it, and you know, I, I knew more than they did, so that's kind of good, and and then they even had me substituting for some of the instructors or teaching life drawing. Boy, I was in a little over my head there, almost got in a fight with a couple of guys, goodness.
Laura Arango Baier:Why?
Ned Mueller:Oh, I just.. I forget. Probably more my fault, something I didn't handle, but some of these guys I remember hearing stories of, you know, veterans coming back after the Korean War, getting the GI Bill and going to college, and some of these professors were going on. Well, these were in art classes that were going on too much about theory, and they, they literally grabbed their cow, says, listen, I, you know, I just came through hell, and I want to learn how, and I need to get a job, so teach me how to do something constructive. Just don't talk,
Laura Arango Baier:that's understandable.
Ned Mueller:Yeah. Mm. yeah, so that's where the, yeah, lucky to have instructors that were working professionals. They, they knew what the heck you needed, needed to know if you'd listen to them.
Laura Arango Baier:That's the key. key, you can lead a horse to water,
Ned Mueller:yeah, yeah. And
Laura Arango Baier:then, do you find that working with the, you know, like any of the organizations, associations, like Oil Painters of America, or any of that, did that also help you with, you know, making more sales, or also just connecting with other artists.
Ned Mueller:Yeah, mainly my sales got better, and I could get more money just because I was getting better. Yeah, there, you know, there, like I said, you didn't have the internet and all these other things, to you know, Instagram, and all that stuff, to promote yourself, so then it was just, you just, you just got better, and you got in better shows, and better galleries, and sold more paintings and made more money. Yeah, I'm probably the wrong person to ask how to make a good living artist. I've never even taken a business course,
Laura Arango Baier:I but I think it's
Ned Mueller:pretty typical of most artists, you know. We avoid those things like a plague, but the galleries, you know, did that, and there were better collectors there? They don't, they don't teach it in schools anymore, but there's three states that mandatory they have teach art classes or music, or the three states, rest, they don't have to, and so the collectors, when I was getting involved, they got it in school, they, they loved it, they studied it. Most of those collectors are dead or dying, so I think there's less educated collectors, and I think. Right, that's a big problem, that's kind of catching up with us, and I live in a high-tech area in Seattle. Here, I've seen Microsoft's collection, it's pathetic, it's all hard edge and boring, and you know, no feeling, so yeah, it's.. I don't know, it's.. it's got to be tough. I'm glad I'm not starting out now. I just glad I was able to start when I did, and we had.. we had good collectors. There were more there. I, yeah. but
Laura Arango Baier:I do think what you said is still, it still holds true, which is the better you are, you know, with your work, the better artists technically skilled, but also in terms of developing your voice as an artist, you know, what makes your painting stand out from the others, it could still be fine art, of course. I think that still holds very true. That really good work when it is marketed, because now, of course, we have social media, and people can actually work without galleries. When you can take care of that marketing side, I still.. I could be naive, though. I don't know. I still believe that really good work speaks for itself, and if you have a way to market it, show it to people, it's.. it's going to make a difference, instead of, you know, marketing something that's maybe less good or a little bit more well, something that needs more time to develop, I think it's good work speaks for itself. Again, it could be nice, but I
Ned Mueller:agree, but then two, if you don't have, if you don't have collectors or buyers of all the difference between good art, well, I can tell one story, it might explain a lot. And I did some articles, some of the art magazines, and then they asked me to do a book, but I just, you know, I knew it took a lot of time to do it. I just didn't want to do it, and and I asked the editor, I says, "Is it true that the bad art books sell better than the good ones? And she said, "Yeah, unfortunately, so because people can identify with the bad work, so that's why you can see god-awful paintings in a gallery, the worst art outselling the good art.
Laura Arango Baier:That's heartbreaking,
Ned Mueller:but it's kind of true.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah,
Ned Mueller:we, we don't get around to the galleries like we used to, but geez, we go in there and we see some work in there that is just horrible, and they're getting outrageous prices for it, and the people buying it, they just, they don't know the difference.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah, you're not the first person who mentions that, that buyers are less aware or educated about what makes good work, though I do have hope, because despite the internet being, you know, like the biggest rabbit hole ever, I do come across a lot of people who, at least, you know, they have the wherewithal and the critical thinking to come across an image and research about it and learn about the different art history periods and have a more nuanced interest than you know someone who basically, who just took a basic art course because they had to for credit, so I have some hope that the age of information could still enlighten some important people to be patrons of the arts.
Ned Mueller:Yeah, and I don't know, I look at, you know, traditional work, and the best markets that I've seen where people can flourish is the Western art, it's very traditional, and I mean it's when I, when I started Western art, it was there again. It was, it was ridiculous, you know? People were selling three-legged horses, and you know, people got all caught up in this Western thing. It was, it was crazy, and not so much anymore, but and I guess there's, it's always been that way, there's always been a lot of bad art cells, I know out of. And years ago, and he was, he would paint a farmhouse, and then have trees on each side, and he'd vary the trees, and maybe the farm, and he says, you know, Ned, I don't want to get any better, because I'm selling everything I do, and now the risk of getting better was too, too scary for him. That's probably a poor analogy, but it's,
Laura Arango Baier:oh no, but it's, it's interesting, because it does fall under, you know, if you are doing the same process on repeats without changing the process, and you always get the same results, then your gallery knows what to expect, and galleries like that. But when you're an artist who is also doing it, you know, in the I want to get better, I want to explore type of sense, or I don't want to, I get bored just doing the same thing over and over. I think it, I don't want to say gets punished, but some galleries don't quite like change because they want a product
Ned Mueller:in a way to keep the doors open, but yeah, years ago I had interviewed with some guy, they told me I was unmarketable because I do too many different things in different means, I understood it, you know, got collectors in the rat, they gotta sell stuff to keep the doors open. That's also why some of these galleries keep some of this bad art there, because it sells, you know, and it keeps the doors open. That's what they told me. The worst artist brought in a million dollars last year, so you know there's a true story, and it was he was the worst artist in the gallery, but he was their best seller.
Laura Arango Baier:Maybe I need to lower the bar.
Ned Mueller:Well, yeah, I would
Laura Arango Baier:not. I would be, I would be betraying myself if I did that. That's awful.
Ned Mueller:No.
Laura Arango Baier:Oh man, that is.. I think we need to discuss something a little less bleak, and
Ned Mueller:I may be a little too cynical.
Laura Arango Baier:Oh no, but you have, of course, the experience to see, you know, the perspective long term of how things have shifted, so it's absolutely natural. But I did want to ask, oh, learn more
Ned Mueller:stories, it'll depress everybody.
Laura Arango Baier:I mean, I would love to hear them, but, but yeah, I think it might be a little bit of a bummer for, yeah, but I did want to ask you in less bleak terms, do you have any advice for someone who wants to become a full-time artist?
Ned Mueller:What are the 4p's patience, perseverance, practice. What's the other one? Okay, there's four of them. Perseverance, yeah, we need that, you know, and like we say, learn how to draw. Don't have to do the, the figure, you know? If you want to do landscapes or still lifes, you know, induce, do something you love. No, find something you love, because, and you can get excited about, because if you're not excited about your pain, it's going to show, and so, yeah, and you think those things would be easy, they're not. Some people don't know what they want to paint, and so try different things, try to get, if you're going to go to an art school, or take workshops, or get them, you know, it just makes sense. Find somebody that you can relate to, that's, you know, that sincerely wants to help you. I mostly teach because I love it, you know. I know it's not all about money, I love it, and I have to charge something, so I charge reasonably prices anyways. Uh, and if you do teach well, you know it's a way to make money, but it's, and I'll be better if you love to teach. If you want to help people, you want to sincerely see them get better, but yeah. and it's, you know, if you have to take commissions or you have to do things or things you may not want to do, but they're going to pay you well. Do it when you're starting out, you do what you have to do, you Um, let's see what else I can't, you know, do studies, you know, do two studies that you're sometimes just do to learn color, just do color studies, because if you're trying to color studies, design, and all that, it's hard to do, so kind of separate them to go outside and just have fun learning about color, maybe go out and start thinking more about composition and design, and you know very few people can do it all at once.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah, I I think that's very sound advice.
Ned Mueller:Yeah, probably just about everybody else would give the same.
Laura Arango Baier:I mean, there's a common thread that a lot of people mentioned, but I think even if it is very similar advice, you gotta hear it a million times. I mean, you hear it once, you think, yeah, yeah, I get it. And then you hear it again, you're like, I think I get it. And then eventually you're like, I, wow, I need.. I didn't think about that, even though you've already heard it a million times.
Ned Mueller:And if you think three or four people are saying the same thing, maybe different words. Gosh, there must be something to it, you know. And these people are doing pretty good work, and you know, and you actually don't have to be a great artist to be a great teacher either.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah,
Ned Mueller:people say that, but I don't, I don't think so. I think there's other things involved, and no patience, and relating, and
Laura Arango Baier:yeah, listening, being a good listener as well. Yeah, totally,
Ned Mueller:even if you're just getting one person you know that you know that knows something and you know will take you out painting or have you over the studio or talk to you or give you some critiques that's another thing start a critique group. I've always been in a critique group for years, and they're really helpful. You just need to start maybe four or five people, and then you go to each other's house, and you bring something to eat, and you critique three or four paintings, or whatever you got each time, that that helps you just got to be Gary. Don't get somebody in there that's going to dominate the thing and always have their opinion getting out there. So, yeah, so that key groups are useful, and you make good friends, and
Laura Arango Baier:yeah, yeah, yeah, and you can always bounce ideas, and and you make discoveries about your work, because you know you have someone else looking at it and having a different opinion, because it can be really lonely when you're in your studio, and sometimes you keep hitting a wall with a problem, and you, there's no other way to get around at them by showing it to someone else to see what they think, and you can show it to your, you know, to someone who maybe doesn't have much to do with painting, but they might not be able to resolve it as well as someone who can see it with the eyes that with educated eyes, so to speak, you know. Yeah,
Ned Mueller:and gosh, what's I gonna say? Yeah, you know, gosh, I forgot, you know, art groups are kind of nice to belong to. They can be supportive. I know some people enjoy the organization, some people don't. And, and I was president of. A couple sometimes find out your friends were the ones that abused it more than anything. You thought just because they're friendly didn't have to get something in on time or do this or that. Yeah, become an officer, you sure find out a lot about human nature.
Laura Arango Baier:Oh, yeah, even just, you know, living your life, you find out a lot about human nature. Yeah, but, but I also wanted to ask you, do you have any upcoming shows or workshops or Zoom classes that you would like to tell us about.
Ned Mueller:Yeah, far shows I'm mostly, you know, some invitational shows around I submit to, because, like, I'm on designated master with oil painters of America and American Impressive Society, so you're supposed to enter as many as you can. The nice thing that being a master, they don't screen your work, they take, so yeah, so you, it's, it's too tempting to put in something that you should put in, so you got to be careful that I entered juried shows a lot, because there's some that they don't have, like, so many jury shows you have to do it in the last three five years or something. So some of these online shows they don't have a limitation. So I've got paintings from 40 years ago, and when they first started doing those, I entered them, they're all, and I at one time actually there was somebody keeping track of that after about five years, and I was number one in the country of winning these online jury shows, mainly because they didn't have a deadline, and I was entering shows I did some of my best paintings, I did 3040 years ago. Now some were one of them just clamped down and decided, well, they're going to stop that because other artists were complaining. Well, I told them, well, wait, yeah, wait till you get older, you know, and you know you may not be able to do as much or do them as great as you did 3040 years ago, and so I mentioned that to him.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah,
Ned Mueller:anyways, yeah, everybody has their perspective on things, so I entered those, and anyways, I, I still win some, and last year I got the, you can see it on the wall poster of the Modern Impressionist, but I got, I called it Best Artist of the Year, yeah, hardly. you know, already the best, but you know it's still nice to get, you know, 5000 bucks.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah,
Ned Mueller:anyways, the other thing is I have a regular class online class on Wednesdays from 10 to one Pacific Daylight Time, and that's just work on value studies, color studies, and all things related to art, and that goes on year round, except like in the summer, the summer were taken off in July and August, and we've been doing it for years and years, and then I do other workshops. Last week, and I just had an online expressive portrait workshop drawing, and I always limited to 12 students. I just don't believe in having a lot of students, not fair to them and not fair to me. And then I'm doing a two day plein air workshop on jury shows. Right now I'm in the middle during two shows and yeah, and my website has all this stuff listed, so I don't do as many as I used to, but yeah, and but I, I like a. Entering jury shows or shows, because I'm an artist, I like people to see my work, and I get an award here and there, and so, yeah, and, yeah, and I once in a while I can still do a halfway decent painting when I, when I'm, when I'm feeling pretty good, and yeah, that's pretty much it. Yeah.
Laura Arango Baier:Well, if someone wants to maybe join one of your Zoom classes or wants to see more of your work, where can they go
Ned Mueller:w w w.net mueller.com m u e l l e r. Yeah, great, but yeah, the workshops fill up pretty fast because we limit it to 12 people, and that's nice. I have some really loyal students that have been doing taking my class for like five or six years, you know, it's amazing, and I get people from Paul, not all of the, but around the world, Mexico, Shanghai, England, you know. So, yeah, so I got a pretty good life.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah, sounds very comforting to be able to, you know, work on paintings that you want to work on, and still have contact with other artists, even if it's through, you know, workshops, and of course, your wife being an artist also helps. Yeah, yeah, no, I'll also include all your links in the show notes as well, for, you know, our listeners, if they want to immediately go to your website and sign up, or check out when your next signups are. They can go visit your links. I
Ned Mueller:got a newsletter. Join my newsletter, do Instagram and Facebook, and other thing I encourage people to do is do Pinterest. Pinterest, I mean, there's just great stuff there, you know. Whatever your tastes are, or styles, you know, start your own page, and it grows, and you figure out how you know they start sending you things because they find out what you like, and they send you similar stuff, and trouble is, boy, it's hard to get off of it.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah, I am a regular Pinterest user, so I totally understand.
Ned Mueller:Yeah, yeah,
Laura Arango Baier:yeah,
Ned Mueller:all the social things can be pretty addictive.
Laura Arango Baier:Yep,
Ned Mueller:yeah. So be careful. I'm not the best example, but yeah, I follow my own advice and do it less.
Laura Arango Baier:Yeah, I will also go out and touch some grass, as they say. Yeah, but thank you so much, Ned. This was a very fascinating conversation. Very, there's a lot to digest in terms of, you know, my hopes and dreams for the future of art, but I will follow your advice. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you've enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank.