How New Australian Building Codes Will Impact Builders: Condensation, Ventilation & Healthy Homes

Discover how the latest Australian building code changes will impact builders, with expert insights on condensation management, cavity ventilation, and healthy home construction. 

Join us and Nick from Highwood Products as we break down NCC 2025 updates, best practices, and practical tips for building safer, healthier homes. Perfect for builders, contractors, and anyone in the construction industry! 

Chapters

• 0:00 Heatwave Move-In And Site Storm Damage
• 3:42 Guest Return: Nick From Highwood
• 6:02 Training Day Recap And Builder Buy-In
• 10:32 Hands-On Learning: Building A Cavity Wall
• 13:27 Product Spotlight: Ventilated LVL Battens
• 14:22 NCC 2025: What’s Changing And When
• 19:38 Climate Zones And Condensation Risk
• 23:28 Best Practice Beyond The Code
• 27:38 Liability, Insurance, And Builder Risk
• 31:58 Global Lessons: NZ, Canada, Passive House
• 35:28 Design First: Details, Setbacks, Windows
• 40:08 Choosing Battens And Managing Tolerances
• 44:58 Collaborating With Designers And Teams
• 49:28 Final Advice And Ways To Get Ready
• 52:48 Closing Thanks And How To Support

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 1:28

G'day guys, welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We are in a different location today because uh if you live in Brisbane or southeast Queensland, um I don't even know what the date is today. I think it's the 26th of um November. But man, are we getting hammered this week? The weather has been hot as anything. We're getting storms every afternoon, so uh we decided to move up into the house and into the air conditioning instead of sitting down in the shed. But um yeah, look, as always, uh the life in a builder is always exciting. There's a lot going on. Um, we have had some incredible storms this week. Uh one storm from Monday afternoon. Uh at this stage, looks like it's cost c caused about$160,000 worth of damage across three of our sites. So um, not something I wanted to be dealing with uh three weeks or four weeks away from Christmas. Uh, and one of those projects is three weeks away from handover. So uh that's just what we deal with as builders every day of the week. So um look, we today's podcast is gonna be an absolute cracker. We've actually got him back. This is his second podcast with Level Up because we see so much value um in the product that they um sell, in the information that they put out there, um, and the knowledge that can be gained from uh having conversations like we're gonna have today. So um massive big warm welcome to uh Nick from Highwood Products, who is one of the sponsors of this podcast, uh, and is the reason we can bring this podcast to you. So uh how are you, buddy? Very well. It's great to be back.

SPEAKER_00: 2:54

It's great to be back. It's also great to be out of the heat. So I appreciate you taking us in here. But uh yeah, you're going really well.

SPEAKER_01: 3:00

Thanks for having me back on. Mate, you're um since look, it hasn't been that long since the last time you're on, but man, you're you're gaining some traction. Definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_00: 3:09

It's um uh a couple of things that are probably driving that. Um this podcast, of course, of course. But uh the uh and I think uh it's like we said last time, this the whole sort of condensation, uh cavity ventilation, high performance home space, uh it's a growing topic, and people are starting to take it seriously, which is great to see. Yeah. Uh so we obviously we our product range is like a a small component of that, um uh an important component of that system, but a a small component nonetheless. But I think people are starting to take uh that their hold of house sort of uh uh and the performance of their home seriously, which is awesome.

SPEAKER_01: 3:49

So it's definitely getting spoken about more and more. Um I guess to give everyone a little bit of a brief before you um run off and think that we're just gonna talk about cavity buttons and stuff for the entire podcast. This is a really valuable podcast, especially if you're a builder. Um, we're gonna cover a lot of things today, uh, especially the changes coming into the building code, um, yeah, mould, moisture, condensation, all those types of things. So make sure you hang around. But um, mate, we've had a like we've actually been catching up quite a bit lately. Like only not quite two weeks ago, um, you come down, live life build, my training business, yeah, uh, put on a session down in Adelaide. Yep. Uh, which again, you were thanks very much for being a sponsor of that event. So we had yourself, we had the guys from Climbershore on board as well. Yep. Um, but mate, tell us a little bit about before we get into that, what it was, uh tell us your thoughts on the day.

SPEAKER_00: 4:40

Look, I thought it was great. Um, I think probably the thing that stood out to me the most uh was just the the general sort of investment from from those who were attending, uh, investment in the sort of quality of the of the project and the work that they're doing, and also investment in their businesses, you know, taking that that next step and seeking better practice. I think um for me personally, that was really uh just uplifting to be part of. So I I I thought that was uh a great testament to you know what you guys have sort of created, but um also really good to see. It sort of uh it gives you hope that as as an industry we're we're moving forward, yeah, and and an inspiring group of people who are all sort of trying to push the boundaries in their own in their own businesses to do that. So that was really great. Um, and then also we obviously had experts, uh certainly you know experts from Proclimber and representatives of the product and whatnot that um uh again were you know that they're on the the sort of cutting edge of what uh you know what best practice looks like. Um so that was awesome. Uh you know, to be a part of that was really uh, like I said, inspiring and an honor to be there. Um first time to Adelaide, so got a bit of a probably not as much of a chance to explore as I would have liked. So next time it'll definitely be longer and definitely have a bit more of a look around, but it's a beautiful place. Um and certainly somewhere I want to get back to as soon as possible.

SPEAKER_01: 5:59

So yeah, I made it it was a cracking day. Um so for for the listeners, people, um, people listening, uh Live Life Build puts on training events for um not just our own members, but we do open it up to uh just all builders so they can come along and gain knowledge and experience on those days. But uh it did blow me away. So um we obviously had a heap of current Live Life Build members there, but we did open it up, and I think we had just over 20 builders um that have never had anything to do with Live Life Build. And to me, that was so inspiring because they like we had a guy that um up here in Queensland from Toownburg or Warwick or somewhere was up at 2.30 in the morning, drove to the airport, flew to Adelaide, came to our lunch and afternoon function. Yeah, like I think he left down there about half past five, flew back to Brisbane, drove back home. I called him the week afterwards because I just touched base at everybody, uh, and he was telling me he got home at 1.30 on the Sunday morning.

SPEAKER_00: 7:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 7:01

So like to see, and we had other guys flying in from Rocky, like all parts Sydney. Um, so to see builders putting in that effort to come along and educate themselves is is definitely inspiring.

SPEAKER_00: 7:13

Yeah, and I think uh you touch on location. I think, you know, regardless of where you live or where you build, uh building better is is important, you know, irrespective of your sort of you know geographic location. So I I think it's awesome. And I was um yeah, it was really good to be a part of it. I think it might be the first time ever that a cavity wall was built inside a uh inside a restaurant venue or inside a so there you go. So maybe a set of firsts, but yeah, it was really good.

SPEAKER_01: 7:41

Really good. I look, I wasn't sure how that was gonna go, but um, I'm so glad we did it. And the feedback from the day has been like that was a big part that pulled it all together. And um look, you and I already talking about some possibilities for next year and and the guys from ProClimber um to do some education around this. I think the big difference from the event that we put on compared to some of the other events that I've been to in the industry, talking about code changes, as builders and tradies, like we're very visual practical people. Yes. So like going to a seminar and sitting in a room where someone's talking about code and clauses and this type of thing is very unrelatable. Yes. And nine times out of ten, you're sitting there trying to keep your eyes open from going to sleep. Um, and I didn't want that. So uh it was really awesome to reach out to one of our local members down there in Adelaide, uh, Luke and the team from Saxony building. Like, if you're in Adelaide and you need a builder, reach out to those guys, they're fantastic. But um, yeah, they knocked up some wall frames, and then we had to bloody carry them up the fire escape for the sixth level and yeah, set them all up. But you could see like everyone there, we had Pro Climber doing um some theory-based stuff. Villi from Pro Climber was fantastic. Um it's the first time I've met Villy in person, and man, his knowledge and the way that he communicates it is awesome. Absolutely. Um, obviously, had you there talking about um what's happened over in New Zealand and then your product. Um, actually had one of my uh supervisors, Brett, there, to talk about like our experience in our building business and what we've learned over the last few years. Um, and then I spoke about some of the costings and again some of the stuff we've been learning by actually doing and uh like installing the wraps and the battons and everything on site. But then at the end, Stewie from Shelton Group um yeah, like did a practical cheated the wall in Proclimber, put the tapes on, did the seals. We installed a window.

SPEAKER_00: 9:45

Yeah, I was gonna say the window is definitely a nice touch. That was uh that was an unexpected addition, but it was great. Yeah, to see it all sort of practically coming together was perfect.

SPEAKER_01: 9:53

Yeah, and then to be able to be there and like hold like put your baton on the wall and physically show people like um some of the well one of the uh two of the builders I've reached out to to get feedback, having those conversations because when that practical side of it started, and we I told everybody to get up the front of the room there and um get involved, the conversations that that sparked by people seeing what was happening and asking questions and things, and um a lot of the feedback's been around uh with your bat and like the internal and external corner, like uh updating their architects and designers about offsets from boundaries and things because obviously you're adding extra widths to the building. Yes. Uh people just like until they'd seen it, exactly, it hadn't really comp they didn't comprehend it. So yeah, it was it was an incredibly valuable day. But all right, guys, I want to introduce you to a really exciting new product that I believe is going to play a massive role in Australia building healthier homes. As you all know, I am extremely passionate about healthy homes and I'm doing a lot of research and putting a lot of time and effort into making sure my construction business is leading the way when it comes to building healthy homes here in Australia. We've teamed up with the guys from Highwood Timber. Highwood Timber are pioneering condensation management with their high flow ventilated LVL baton system. High flow battons give builders a stronger, straighter, and smarter way to create a ventilated cavity behind cladding and underneath roofs without compromising on structural performance. While tackling condensation to improve building health and ease of insulation, highwood battons are built to perform. When it comes to dealing with condensation and ventilation, high flow battons will help you create continuous ventilated cavities behind all your cladding and underneath your roof sheeting. They reduce condensation risk and support healthier, longer lasting buildings. Highwood timber battons are also in alignment with the proposed NCC condensation management requirements as well as passive house ventilation requirements. Being an engineered LVL product, they are stronger, straighter, and more dimensionally stable than a solid material such as pine. This helps resist warping, twisting, and shrinkage, ensuring more consistent installs less prone to splitting than solid timber. Howard timber battens are precisely manufactured, meaning that your installation will be faster and easier than other products on the market. The part that I like the most about these batons are they are H3 treated for long-term protection against decay and turmoiles. They use a waterborne H3 treatment which reduces reactivity with membranes and adhesives when compared to LOSP. These are the exact battens that you want to be using on your homes and your builds if you are considering building healthier homes or passive homes. Check them out. Highwood Timber Products. To move on from that, um one of the main reasons you're back here, mate, is to talk to us about these code changes. So run us through what's going on.

SPEAKER_00: 12:58

Sure. So there's been and I think we might have touched on it in the last episode, but um there's been a lot of obviously talk around the NCC and what the changes may or may not be coming over the next sort of you know, three to five years. Um we we've been talking about you know condensation for qu quite some time, uh, but the the the NCC change uh that we're mostly focusing on uh is the the implementation of drained vented cavities plus vapor permeable membranes uh in NCC 2025. So that code has been proposed for about a year and a half at this point, um which uh is specifically aimed at at the southern climate. So it's climate zone six, seven, and eight. Uh now I'm sure that you'd probably possibly make uh available the building codes board have got a map that essentially shows where that is on a on a map of Australia, but it's um it it really sort of starts to take effect in in New South Wales. It's cooler, temperate climates, so basically you know expand as you get further south. But a lot of New South Wales is affected. There may be some parts of Queensland that are initially affected, um, certainly all of Victoria or a very large portion of Victoria, uh, Melbourne um and Tasmania, and then the southern part of Western Australia. Those code changes have been sitting in as proposed uh, like I said, for quite some time. But in the last month, so I think it was October 22nd, uh the Treasury released uh formal dates around when those will be rolled out. So there was talk of or there is talk and uh and the Building Codes Board have confirmed that the NCC post-rollout of NCC 2025 will be paused until 2029. But 2020 what's that mean?

SPEAKER_01: 14:47

What's the point?

SPEAKER_00: 14:49

So from so from the implementation of NCC 2025, which has been uh proposed and now announced, uh all further changes are paused until mid-2029. That that's the current sort of the current sort of wording around that. With uh with the 2025 mandate, uh it's due to be released publicly on the first of February next year, so 1st of February 2026. And then with earliest adoption from a s at a state level from the 1st of May 2026. So the codes, the the changes that have sort of been proposed for a while are now firm. Uh condensation management is included in that. So this is uh this is a residential building code. Um and I suppose the earliest that we would actually see that start to roll out at a state level would be May in 2026. So I think the the probably the main message is that that it's here. Uh though those changes are firm, and condensation is now something that's not only proposed, but it is something that's will be a firm mandate, you know, in new homes from whenever your state jurisdiction decides to implement those changes. So it's a significant change for the industry. Going to a cavity ventilation, though you touched on all the things around architectural detail, corners, you know, setbacks from walls, cavity depth, windows, all those sort of design considerations are now something that I would probably be advocating for builders to be taking into consideration now. Whilst it might take a a little while for the uh state, your state to start actually implementing those changes, uh, I think now's the time for productivity and getting you know on the front foot as far as you know incorporating them into planning.

SPEAKER_01: 17:28

Right. So there's a lot to unpack there. Yeah. Uh firstly, let's talk about the the zoning.

SPEAKER_00: 17:34

Yep. So uh the way that they've the way that they break down the the climate zones is is to do with condensation risk. Um but uh just in terms of uh a simple explanation of it, basically as you get cooler, uh the risk of condensation forming uh inside the home and condensing on the on the inside of your um envelope is increased. So hot humid air from inside the homes, be it from showering, from breathing, is actually a big one, uh cooking, uh washing, drying, anything that produces moisture vapor into the air. That as you uh have an increasingly cold external environment, the risk of that is exacerbated. They basically, you know, the colder you get, the higher the risk of condensation. That that's that's sort of how we've broken it down. Uh Australia's broken into into eight climate zones. We've got one through eight. Um, but the ones that are incorporated in this are are six, seven, and eight. So it's it's it's really the south for the most part.

SPEAKER_01: 18:36

It's quite um you touched on it before we started recording. Like it's it's a little bit of a gray area about how these areas are like you look at a the full map of Australia and you think, oh yeah, that I'm not in that area. Yeah. But like if you actually zoom in on those maps, like Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00: 18:52

So it's it's um so I'd I'd probably split that into two things. So there's there's a there's a mandate conversation, uh, and then there's a best practice conversation. So if we're getting granular, the the climate zones do have defined boundaries. So you know, I'll I'll use Sydney as an example. You know, there there are sort of close to the coast, some of the some of uh the Sydney sort of area is is I think it's is climate zone five, so it borders on climate zone six, but becomes climate zone six as you become you know slightly inland. Obviously, those areas will share a lot of crossover uh crossover climate-wise. So um I think does the border follow a main road or a further No, it's it's so look, obviously you'll have you'll have a very similar climate in coastal, as you will, inland. Um I think we said that you know the clouds don't know where to stop or the the weather doesn't have it doesn't follow a main road to uh to follow that area. But um but though the the way that it's drawn, the way that it is it is uh it is organized is postcode. So we you know you can log into the Building Codes board website, search your postcode, and it will tell you what climate zone you're in and what sort of you know condensation risk.

SPEAKER_01: 20:01

Oh true. I I actually didn't know that, so I've learned something today.

SPEAKER_00: 20:04

Yeah, so you can you can determine your climate zone using that tool. Um you can search, it's an inter it's newly interactive. So uh when I first started looking into this, it was not, but now it is. So that's been a pretty good upgrade. So you can sort of just log in and find out where where your suburb is or where your you know your new project is going to be, what climate zone it's gonna be. Um and I do believe that as part of the new NCC as well, they're talking about some some AI integration to make the whole process easier to understand. So to navigate the NCC as well. Because as anyone who's in the let's sorry, do I'm sure it's it's difficult, there's a lot to it. So anyway they could sort of streamline that'd be great as well.

SPEAKER_01: 20:42

So yeah, I d I just think this whole conversation's fascinating. Um the way that they put uh borders on different zones, and even the way they come up with the zones, and like I know today the focus is on um these rule changes and and the benefits of cavity systems and all those types of things, but I think the con one of the big conversations which can which come up a little bit in Adelaide the other day personally, I think the cavity batten system is as important, or if not more important, in a warmer climate. Because like there's so much talk about colder climates, and um, obviously you're you're cold outside, you're water warm air inside, so you've got that condensation, those dew points in different areas. But like well, like where we are here, like when you're in a hot, humid climate, like today's a perfect example. Like we've come away from the shed up to the house here because we're sitting in the house with the air con's on, it's whatever it is, 24 degrees. Yep. And I don't know what today's gonna top out at 36 or 37 or something outside. Yes. So we're op we're we've got the opposite thing happening. Correct. Like so up here you've got hundreds of thousands of homes cranking their air conditioning, and we don't like today's very unusual, like we do not run our air conditioning very often. Yes. Um but you've literally got hundreds of thousands of homes in hotter climates that are cranking their air conditioning, putting huge loads on the power system, and then like you can touch the window and it's warm on the outside, and you you got that condensation issue happening there.

SPEAKER_00: 22:13

Exactly. So it's it's so what we were sort of saying before around the there's the there's the code conversation, and then there's the best practice conversation. Exactly right. It's the exact opposite issue in a in in a humid climate like we're in. Today is a great example, actually. I think probably the best example we could have hoped for. It's yeah. Like a cold can of soft drink on a on a hot, humid day, that is the exact same phenomenon that will be happening on the outside of this house.

SPEAKER_01: 22:37

Yeah, so our our I assume like our walls would be sweating inside the walls.

SPEAKER_00: 22:44

Yes. Now look, I believe at some stage that this uh this will be adopted across the board. Um while the focus is on the on the cooler climates now, it's not to say the condensation is not at all a risk in in other climate zones. Quite the contrary, yeah, to to some um to some extent. But uh in terms of in terms of what is uh absolutely pertinent to the to this code change, we're talking about the the sort of the the southern states as what will very soon become something that is uh non-negotiable. Uh and something that will be you know start to come into certification, it'll start, it'll it'll definitely start to come into the sort of design phase. Uh because as you said, there's there's some real considerations around a vented cavity, which otherwise, until now, haven't necessarily been required.

SPEAKER_01: 23:31

Um it makes so much sense. Like the more we do it, like even just one of our recent or current jobs, which you're coming out to in a week or two, yeah. Um it just makes so much sense. Like when you're doing it, like we've had uh we're having a team meeting with our team tomorrow to run through some new details and stuff that I've come up with um for around safets and whatever, but like we're really big on that constant education, and uh we've got an incredible team. Like my two supervisors are great. Um, it's been really like our lead carpenters are great. We've got one of our team uh lead carpenters is from New Zealand, he's been with us probably I don't know, maybe 18 months now. Okay. So he's seen what happened over there. So being able to have these conversations, get input from him. But seeing my own team get more invested in this the more that I educate them, and then they're going away watching YouTube, watching Matt Reisinger, watching these videos, learning, and then being able to educate our new apprentices so that they can carry on with this once they finish their time and those types of things. But I think there's two really important things that people should take away from today's podcast is number one, like changes to the building code are important. Um, and then number two is best practice. Like at a at a better like builders should always be aiming for best practice, yes, but whether it's in code or not. Yes. Um, and to just to touch on like for anyone that follows me on Instagram, like um Nick sent me some Nick and I have been having a few conversations since we've um sort of been hooking up about these buttons. And Nick sent me an email about these code changes, and I I read it and I did a story on my Instagram, and I think as of today, it's had uh just under 80,000 views and quite a lot of comments, and it's just it's quite an even split uh in the comments, and it's it's like I we talked about it earlier, like I do the odd post to sort of put some bait out there and see what sort of bites I get, so and it can be pretty interesting at times, especially my more recent one about electric cars, it's been awesome. But um, it's really funny to see like you've got this one group of people that are commenting saying about time, like this is great, like about time Australia caught up with other countries around the world, or I've been doing this for a long time. Like, so you've got those positive people, but then you've still got this bunch of builders that don't know what they don't know, uh, are continuing to do things the way they've been taught, aren't doing further education, and it really surprised me the amount of comments from people saying uh just something else that won't get enforced, or just something else that's gonna add to the cost of building, like all these negative comments. And look, you're always gonna have two sides to everything, but I think the reality is with these changes that we're talking about, uh, with the ProClimber products, with your buttons, it's a no-brainer. Like if you if you put a little bit of time into understanding um, like I failed science at school, I'm definitely not a science person. I don't know a lot of things if you ask some of my the people that comment on my uh electric car video. But um it's it's a no-brainer. Like once you get a little bit of a taste of it, like it's very easy to just keep learning more about it because it just like the beer scenario. I think that's why the Adelaide event was another reason it was so good. Like the way Villy explained it using beer, like condensation on beer, like he used a cold climate version and a warm climate version, and yes, it it's just I don't know. It makes sense. Makes sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:12

Well, the one thing I'd I'd I'd a couple things on that. Um the the the code changing uh is is an absolutely a good thing, and it's it's it's a necessary uh step for us to to continue to move forward as as an industry. Um there's there is you know, around moisture management, there is a global conversation there. But certainly in Australia, and uh the the thing that probably is is relevant um is that the the expectation of the builder is has also grown immensely. So now more so than ever, there's more pressure and more exposure and more more risk and more legal liability on builders than ever, right? So there's a lot of a lot of things that you have to consider in in a building project which has changed over time. It's it's that more so than ever is is uh a lot of that rests with the builder. I heard the the cavity batten system, and I can I can't claim credit for this, but I heard the the cavity batten system described as the cheapest insurance policy you're gonna get on a home. I really like that as a as a concept because relatively speaking, relative to a lot of other systems, uh a ventilated wall cavity system, and we talk about walls and roofs, but a ventilated wall cavity system, uh to upgrade to that, or do air quites to upgrade, but to to implement that um relative to the to the risk reduction that you would achieve from having something like that in place uh is a really good way to sort of protect against some of certainly moisture-related risk that that comes with building. Um and moisture obviously can come from from multiple ways. So if for whatever reason there is some ingress, to have a drained sort of rain screen system where you've got a membrane that will dissipate some moisture as a second line of defence, uh on top of also managing your condensation coming from inside the home, that's a that's a good way to insure yourself against risk. So and I think that that's probably something I certainly wanted to say is that that's um and that that is ultimately a responsibility that that will fall onto the the builder to to handle.

SPEAKER_01: 29:28

Um well just on that, mate, like for builders well, I guess for any trades possibly listening to this, but definitely for builders, like something that's become very apparent in the last um few years with a lot of weather events that we've been having. Like obviously there's a lot of insurance claims and things happening, but um building claims are are huge. Yes, and so insurance companies are I guess always looking for ways to not pay out. Um but we we've been involved with a couple where we've had to do rectification work for other on other homes from other builders that haven't done it correctly. But I think for something to for builders to be aware of, if if you're not, if if if you build it doesn't matter whether you build the house for a client or you that client sells it and moves on, but the way the insurance companies are working now, like if there's a claim on a building um and the homeowner uh puts in a claim and the assessor comes out, the first thing that they do now is assess or look up when when the house was built, what year the house was built, and whether the the damage or the whatever the claim like whatever's causing the claim, whether it was built to code at the time. And there's a quite a few builders getting stung with this, and that like people think that like builders, a lot of builders think that it's just like whatever it is, six years, six months, or depending on where you are, most of Australia's six years, six months or three months, something. But like there's builders that have been finished jobs for 15, 16, 20 years. Like there's been builders in retirement that have been sent bankrupt in retirement because insurance companies gone after them, because they basically said, Look, it's it's your fault. Like you so as builders, like we have responsibility. Like, if it's a if it's in building code, and look, this this subject makes me very nervous because I'm the first one to put my hand up. Like, I don't know everything. We try and do best practice, we try and build above and beyond. But mate, you've seen the building codes, like there's a lot of stuff in there, yes, there is. Um, and yeah, there possibly could be things in the future that might go wrong that I just am unaware that I haven't done to code. Yep. But it it is something that all builders need to take more seriously, and um, especially now, like with these changes, like mold is now referenced in the building code from the last sort of changes, and now with these changes coming in, condensation is now referenced in the building code. Yes. So it's serious stuff. Like if you're a builder, you have to take this seriously because if you're not uh building your clients a product that is dealing with mold and condensation, you are liable.

SPEAKER_00: 32:22

I think the uh we might have touched on it briefly in the in the last episode, but um you you said it well. The the the sort of the building code, particularly in the last few iterations, has has really started to to walk into the the livability and the the sort of like health, health and safety, health and humenity, those those sort of topics are becoming ever present in our building code now. Whereas, you know, historically, um much more sort of more of your hardline stuff around structure and and those sorts of things. So I I completely agree. Um, and there is a lot of education uh uh about it that, you know, and a lot of new things that are sort of coming in, rapid fire. Um, but sort of to round off what I was saying before about the the uh the legal side of it. I think that the the Building Codes board taking a a step towards uh what is an internationally sort of growing movement towards you know off off-wall building is is really good because it it sort of takes a little bit of the guesswork out of it to a certain extent. You know, it makes it something that we as a country acknowledge is a risk and is something that we want to take take action against. Um so I think uh I think that's an important important step for us to make as an industry. Obviously, there's you know, and uh certainly a lot of the people we chatted with down in Adelaide uh are sort of along that journey. Um but I I personally feel quite uh you know quite happy that that that as a as a topic has been in in introduced to our our code.

SPEAKER_01: 33:57

Yeah, I'm I'm a I'm a huge fan. I think it's um now that I understand it and I know more about it, and look, I I learnt more even just from listening to Villy and yourself um down in Adelaide the other week. So it like one thing I can't stress enough to I guess everyone listening, like doesn't matter what trade you are, builder, even I guess contractor suppliers and things, like the more our industry collaborates and shares lived experiences and knowledge from um like we learn so much from doing renovation work. Um and so having those conversations and like even uh on the Thursday night before that event, yeah, myself, you, uh Stewie, uh Brett, and a couple and Shay, like just that conversation that we had around the dinner table, though I don't know if Shay was really interested in talking about cabbie battens, but but uh but yeah, like even that having dinner for that couple of hours and the conversations that were had there, like there was a few things that my I know myself and uh even my supervisor Brett took some notes, and we've had some conversations since. But if if those if that collaboration, those those conversations aren't being had, we can't continue to improve things. Yes. Um none of us know everything. And one thing that's really impressed me uh with since I've met you, Nick, and the product that you have is your willingness to to come out to site, to actually physically see what we're dealing with on site, understand how we do things on site. Like to me, that's something that a lot of manufacturers dismiss. Like they think they can solve it all sitting at the at a table with a pen and a piece of paper, and um because that that makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_00: 35:46

Yes. Oh, I appreciate that. It it's um I I agree. I mean, we we're only as good as you know, how it is used in in practice, and if we're not actively spending time to try and refine that, you know, what are we doing? Yeah, I I I think that that's um it's super important. Something we'll we'll always try and do is stay very close to uh as it as it is being used in in the real world. Because exactly you say it's all well and good to have an idea, but it you know, people have to use it and people feel and and people have got to also uh you know it's also something that um yeah, we want to understand, you know, if there's problems with it, what are they? How do we fix them? So yeah, no, we're we're always committed to that, and and definitely something that um we will stay committed to.

unknown: 36:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:30

So mate, what's um what's something else listeners should know about these changes that are coming up, or what's what's your advice for them if they're not on board with it, I guess maybe?

SPEAKER_00: 36:39

A couple so I'd probably um I'd I'd a few things. So design, design is definitely one of them. Uh we we covered sort of the I suppose the the legal side of it. Um but also I think I do want to reiterate that this is this is not just a uh it's it's not a new thing, it's not a necessarily a new concept as far as the world construction industry is concerned. Um and I I do believe that this is this is Australia looking uh sort of staying in line with the with a trend that is happening outside of our our borders. So it's we mentioned New Zealand at the event. Uh New Zealand, for listeners that are uh were not at the event, um New Zealand was sort of the focus of our our case study, and we did uh touch on it in the last podcast.

SPEAKER_01: 37:28

But you you I think at the event you put a dollar value on it.

SPEAKER_00: 37:31

What was the billions?

SPEAKER_01: 37:33

So the the the rectification 59 or 56 billion or something?

SPEAKER_00: 37:36

I don't know the exact number off the top of my head, but it is it is enormous. The rectification cost from uh essentially moisture ingress and then moisture entrapment issues not being managed costs it an it absolutely extraordinary amount. Um but it also drove a a really great amount of innovation. So a lot of um uh but look, similar conversation in Canada. Yeah, there I I read something recently and and Canada had uh a um, and certainly some of the conversations having in Canada that the you know people almost had a virtually identical overhaul of their uh code with a very similar sort of set of circumstances as New Zealand, which is basically you know, moisture coming into the buildings, then the buildings becoming too airtight, moisture being trapped and causing mold and rot. That that that concept is not unique to Australia, it's not unique. It is a it is a world phenomenon that is something which is a is more of a physics conversation than it is and a science conversation than it is a location conversation. So that that's probably I I think it's important to note because um and I I do think that the fact that our our code is acknowledging that is is important. Um, but that is Australia moving in step with the rest of the world. That that is probably the first thing I'd like to say. Yeah, perhaps to a certain extent, but yeah, it's it is um look various parts of the world call it different things. In America they call it a rain screen. Um and but it the the the concept is exactly the same. It's having separation from your cladding system to your frame and a clear passage of air and water to drain that that area. That that concept exists, you know, it exists in passive house, it exists in a lot of European construction, uh Canadian construction, and and like I said, the US.

SPEAKER_01: 39:30

So Passive House has really adopted it for a for a long time. And like you can even see that here in Australia. Like you there's a lot of passive homes getting built down in Tasmania and uh Melbourne, yep, um, in those colder climates. And but even even non-healthy, not even non-passive homes, like that seems to have been adopted. That's this whole cavity system seems to have been adopted like years ago down there. Like that's where I first got introduced to it, was from a lot of homes that a lot of builders that I was following down that way, and I started getting curious about what it was for and all those types of things. But um, it's funny how like even in one country we have got all these different things going on. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 40:13

Which I um look, it's I it it works. I think that's probably the the fundamental principle is that it the the ventilation of a of a cavity works, it works with brick, brick veneer and it works with lightweight framing and lightweight cladding. That that concept is well documented and well studied around the world. So that's um you know, passive house, obviously, they're they're um you know very uh that that's a major part of the passive house process.

SPEAKER_01: 40:43

Um but it works, it simply works, which is like it's literally just clicked while you were talking then, like and like most of the homes that I built when I was apprentice in my early career um had a lot of brickwork. Yeah. And so brick brickwork has always had a cavity. Yeah. Um like generally 40 mil or bigger. Yes. And like and like even now, just you hearing you say that, like so many of the homes that we've done um renovation work on, even older ones that had no building paper on them. Like because back in the day, like they just put brick tyres on the frame and put the bricks up. There was no building paper. Yeah, those jobs don't have molts. Like molds. Yeah, yeah. Like, because uh like so we um we touched on this a little bit in Adelaide, like we've created the problem, um, and as usual, we get now we're chasing our tail because now we're trying to come up with solutions for it. But like with a brick cavity building, you've got that cavity, so it breathes, and then with a lot of older homes where you're using timber weatherboards, like the the especially the old hardwood ones, like they were able to breathe because a lot of the time the weatherboards were slightly different shapes, there's little gaps here and there, yeah, and it it just had air movement. Yes, and then with that, like the better the the products have gotten better, the the claddings that we use have gotten better, the the windows we've used have gotten better, and like without sort of knowing it, we've created this problem that if you're not putting any time into understanding what's happening, you don't really know how to solve it.

SPEAKER_00: 42:19

Yeah, it's it's sort of it's It's kind of the I mean condensation there's two parts to that. I mean, the the rain if we talk about the rain screen, that that also is allowing for the fact that we've we've got in the last however many years the cladding systems have become more sort of porous and whatnot and and and some allow some ingress. I mean some some cladding systems actually are open joint, you know, and they just allow water through.

SPEAKER_01: 42:43

Well that but that's why bricks originally had a cavity. Yeah. Because bricks porous. Yes. So moisture got through the brickwork. You have to have a cavity for that moisture to Exactly right. So they they knew this, they they knew this stuff back like 60 years ago.

SPEAKER_00: 42:56

Yeah. But it's it's it's kind of the the condensation component is kind of the unintended consequence of making more energy efficient buildings, which is also a really good thing. You know, we we we obviously want we want to consume less less energy, you know, the the the cost of electricity is is rising. People want to be spending less on heating and cooling their homes, absolutely. But the sort of the, yeah, like you said, the the unintended consequence of that is you know, you end up with airtight homes that end up with mold. So it's um to the start was probably the first thing is is this is uh this is a worldwide phenomenon which there are plenty of different ways and innovations that people around the world are managing the same problem. Um and it's it's excellent that our our our code is starting to take it seriously and has has written something in about that. So I think that's excellent. Design is something that's very important. So where it it's coming. And certainly if you're in the south, you know, it's it's coming to your climate zone. Design for this, and uh Duane, as you know, like starting to implement this into your homes, you'd understand that there is a lot, and you know, you're you're doing a lot in terms of educating and and making all that sort of information public to your audience, which is excellent. But there is design consideration around what a cavity looks like. You know, it is it's set back from boundary, it's windows, it's window detail, doors, all the sort of things where you've got a junction from a cavity to uh an existing party home. You have to consider that. Um and look, I think the earlier that people can start to have conversations with their architects, uh, maybe start to educate your clients about the fact that you know this is something that will start to be normal. Um, the earlier that that's built into the design, I think the better, because it's it's it's less rework. Because certainly if you haven't allowed for it, it can be it can be a problematic.

SPEAKER_01: 44:54

Oh mate, design's so important. And again, that's one big thing that came out of the event the other Friday. Like when people physically saw it and like I held those batons on corners and things, like because when you when you think when you just say, hey, it's a cavity bat system, you've got to put batterons on the wall, like it's just rattles off your tongue and you don't really think too much of it. But we've um we've done it so much over the last sort of three to four years. The um starting to get some rumbling four days in a row, mate, we're gonna get a massive storm by the sounds of it. But um the and I touched on this in Adelaide, like we so when we started really getting onto this and doing it, like we experiment, like we've used all types of buttons over the last few years. We've used the polystyrene ones, we've used the treated 20mm readed decking. Uh, we've just tried using treated framing timber, like all different types of things. Uh, a lot of the builders down in uh Melbourne that I've um spoke to years ago and we're getting onto this, like they put me onto the like the most economical one we got up with Jay put me onto was uh buying the 90 by 19 readed treated decking and then ripping it down the middle, so you end up with like a 42mm button, um, putting it on 19 mil, so you end up with a 19mm cavity. Because I think um like the cavities, yeah, the there's another part to that as well. Like a lot of people talk about the different depth of the cavity, and that like 12 mil is great, 90 mil's really good, um, but obviously your 35 is even better. Mate, doing everything that we've done and what we've learned over the last few years, like there's no way we're going back to a 90 mil bat, and like your product just it's so much stronger. Um, but I guess just to educate the people that are listening and maybe builders that are wanting to get into this, um, start doing this. Uh, we've just found like there's there's so many things that just build up. So like when you start putting your wraps on the wall, and then you've got to use the tapes, and especially where you go around windows and things, so you you could end up with your like possible multiple laps of your building um WRB, and then you might have the ProClimber seal tape on there so it's thicker, and then you might have some flashings around your windows that you've got to put tape over. So you every sort of millimeter or like is building up and up and up. And like on our jobs, we we go to a great lengths to straighten and plane and get everything nice and flat on our wall frames, and then we found with the 90mm button we'd be we'd start putting the batons on, and like all these laps in the paper would start bowing the batons, and like with a 90mm batten, it doesn't give you a lot of guts if you start planing the back out of it, and um, because it's near impossible, and that's where it got time consuming because it's near impossible to plane the face once you fix it on. You've got to worry about nails and all types of things, but that's been well, we're seeing it now. We've only used it a very small amount. You've we've just had the first full job delivered of your product, yep. But yeah, having 35 mil, like you can just see, like we could plane five mil out of the that, and it'd still be super strong and um get us a nice neat finish. So um, I'm not sure what you think about that because it probably degrades the structural requirements of it, but um just all those little things that until you start doing this system, um, and in and I guess to touch on that, by doing it and being in those situations where certain windows and so where that where we're really coming unstuck with that was where there was multiple windows close together. Like if you had a steel post and the windows were tight and you're trying to get all these different things to lap. Um, so now that we're aware of that, we can actually talk to the designers and like maybe instead of trying to clad between windows, we get them as tight as we can together, and then we put a color-coded aluminium flashing over the outside so it actually looks like the window's one big piece, so we're not trying to like there's all so like you said, like talking to your designers about what they're putting on paper, it everything has this flowing effect. Yeah. Um, and then with the on the designer, uh, well, talking about design and the architect and things, we actually had a um two-hour meeting with one of our designers on one of our projects this morning. Because we've been doing lots of talking about this, and we he comes out at different stages on the job, but we actually got him out there this morning before we start putting your buttons on the job to talk about all this, like show him what's gonna happen in internal, external corners, show him how the closer goes on the bottom and where it butts in the windows and doors and all these types of things. So now he's gonna go away and work with us. So we've given him a heap of sketches that we've done so that we can start because ultimately I'll I want to have a standard set of details. So my team's not reinventing things all the time. Yep. Um, because obviously that just adds efficiency, and and um I believe the more because for me that was something like it's cost me a lot of money the last three years to learn how to do this system to the standard that I want it at in my business. Yes. So if we can get that knowledge now onto paper so that the boys turn up to site, there's a set of documents, and we know exactly what has to happen at an internal corner, external corner, above a window, below a window, up over a roof. Like um, so yeah, design's definitely something that needs to be taken into consideration. Um so yeah, like like we said, this is a no-brainer. Like this is coming in whether you're whether it's whether you're in climate zone 678 or whether you just want to do it for best practice. Yep. Like you've got to know the cost of this stuff, you've got to know the best products to use, you've got to know, talk to your designer about the the width of buildings and things. So it's it's the like I wanted to get you back, mate, because this it's a big deal. It is a big deal.

SPEAKER_00: 50:47

It's it's and I think what you what you've just covered is a really good way to to sum it up. It's not it's not a it's not a subtle change to a to a project. And obviously every project's gonna be different, you know, some are gonna be more involved, someone's gonna make sense, but as a whole, adding a an extra, you know, in this case, 35mm air gap on the outside of your entire home takes a lot of consideration. Um so look, we're we're doing we're doing uh as much as we can as far as producing some standard details that'll be available for exactly that, trying to simplify the the process. But um, but I'd definitely be encouraging people to be having conversations with their designers as early as possible.

SPEAKER_01: 51:29

Well uh I really appreciate your time coming back. Well um before we wrap it up, anything else you want to get out there?

SPEAKER_00: 51:36

Uh no, look, I think I think that's that's it. I think the main message is is definitely um you know start to get ready because it this is something that uh is here and and I believe here to stay uh and for the best. So um, you know, we're we're certainly an open door. If anyone is looking for resources around the system, the the sort of the science behind it or or anything in that vein, please feel free to contact us. But um yeah, no, I think that's that's covered everything.

SPEAKER_01: 52:02

Awesome, mate. Well, as yeah, we'll put your the links to your stuff and um that on this podcast. Um you're getting more and more stockist of your product um all over Australia, so there's no issues there. So um look, guys, I I can't, I guess, preach for um Nick's product enough. It's fantastic. Um, we definitely won't be going back to um a 90 mil or or any other type of product. Reach out to Nick at Highwood Products if you're um considering using the battons. Make sure you reach out to the guys at ProClimber if you um if you're interested in getting more involved with their product as well. But um look, as always, make sure you go to the DwaynePears.com website to get your merch so you can continue to help us with our level up movement. Look, um, I don't think I asked you on the last podcast, Nick, but what does level up mean to you?

SPEAKER_00: 52:49

I think uh I I think I lived it last week when we were down in Adelaide. I think I think that that to me was um leveling up in your life in general, but leveling up in your business. So that means you know, connecting with the right people, connecting with the right resources, educating, learning, uh, and sharing was the big part of what that that whole thing looked like to me. Um that that that's that's how I would sum it up. I mean, that's that's certainly what I would uh that was outside looking in was was how it appears, um, which I thought was really awesome. I think you mentioned collaboration before. I think it's a really important thing in our industry. I think we only, you know, if we're sharing with one another, that's that's the way that we get better as a whole. Um, and I saw a lot of that, a lot of that down in Adelaide.

SPEAKER_01: 53:38

So awesome, mate. Yeah, appreciate it. Yeah. Well, uh, look, guys, if you want to continue to level up, make sure you continue to support this podcast. Uh, like, share, subscribe, all of those types of things. And uh, yeah, we look forward to seeing you on the next one.