4700 Australian Builders Went Insolvent In 2025 — The Hard Truth Nobody Talks About

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4,700 construction businesses went bankrupt in 2025. Is yours next?

In this episode of Level Up, I sit down with Marcus from Mackay Goodwin Advisory & Restructuring to talk about one of the most important, and most ignored — topics in the building industry: bankruptcy and insolvency.

This isn't a doom-and-gloom episode. It's a survival guide.

Marcus has spent 20+ years helping small construction businesses restructure their debt, negotiate with the ATO, and get back on their feet — without losing their license, their home, or their sanity.

We get into the real numbers, the real stories, and the real options that most builders don't even know exist.

Transcript

Why Insolvencies Hit Construction Hard

SPEAKER_03 0:00

70 to 75% of insolvencies are small service-based businesses in the construction industry. In 2025, and this is all based off ASEC records, but in 2025, in construction there was over 4,700 insolvencies and 3,250 of those were small construction services. So this is something that I'm really passionate about, and I bang on about it all the time because I firmly believe that if the cot if a building business, if the cost to build with a builder actually got more expensive, it's going to reduce the cost of building. Because if there's 4,700 businesses going bankrupt or insolvent each year, we're talking hundreds, if not billions, of dollars that are getting added to all the cost of everything that we pay, our insurances, our building materials, all that labour, everything that we do. I started my building business, I started getting decent contracts in. Let's say they were $500,000. Yeah. Our industry throws this 10% figure around. So in my mind, I was like, fuck, I'm making 10% grand. I'm turning out 8 million bucks, I'm making 800 grand. So I'm I'm spending that money. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I got to a point where I was quite literally ready to go and throw a rope around a tree. Like I was about a young family, couldn't pay any of my bills, the bank was going to take things. Yeah. And I just couldn't figure it out. I was like, what? I'm a good tradesman. Like, what's wrong with me?

SPEAKER_01 1:23

And use that money elsewhere, you'd be 10 times better off. Yeah. And I we see it regularly, particularly often in construction too, where the guys, yeah, we had a project, mate, and it didn't go well, but I'll remortgage the house. Alright, fantastic, mate. Redrawing the house. At least you've been accountable and stuff. Yeah. But they haven't changed anything for the next project. Yeah. And guess what? The next one finishes and they're at a bloody loss again. And they're drawing further and further down to the point where they need to sell the bloody house. Yeah. And then the house they don't get enough for the house to pay out the debts I got. 100%. So then they're cooked or they're in a bit of strife. But if they had noticed that, do not continue to lend against your house, borrow money off your mates, be throwing you a company when you're not changing anything. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

Because what's you've really you've kept repeating that message, and I think it's really important. You can't just heart breaking, mate. Yeah, if what you're doing now is not getting you where you want to be, you've something has to change.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Mate, I had an old fella, 75, wanted to retire, had a business. He wasn't construction, but he had a business. And he just kept refinance, refinance, refinance. But in the I think it it was like steel fabrication and stuff, right? All that shit's gone to China. Australia's expensive, but he hasn't changed his prices. So he's just been carrying losses. And he had his houses over there. He's been working in this business for 50 odd years. He he didn't realise that it was in sh like in shit or had a massive problem until he ran out of money to pay his wages. So it was that that was his trigger, and he couldn't draw down any more money from his team. And that's because he just wouldn't identify the problems and the issues. Yeah. And therefore, all the wealth that he has built up over those years has gone. And it's gone because of of a lack of stewardship and guidance and just fucking knowing when to put your hand up and try and to reach out for help.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

We'll touch on this as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Mental health speak too, mate.

SPEAKER_03 3:16

Oh yeah, definitely. Oh, industry is shocking for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

I don't know. Have you done mental health podcasts?

SPEAKER_03 3:21

Yeah, we're big advocates and sponsors of the TX Boys trade, mate on our thing.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

I'd really love to get involved with them because everyone in our game, mate, is just like they train us to do this, they train us to do that. But mate, I've had guys call me up and say, look, I I've had some gas bottles in my car. I can't pay my tax debt. No one trains us for that.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

As a builder, one of my number one priorities is making sure that my entire team, including my contractors, go home safely every day to their families.

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SPEAKER_03 3:51

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Why Bankruptcy Needs Plain Talk

SPEAKER_03 6:12

It's a topic that I've um I've been searching to get an expert on to discuss with us for a very long time. It's a topic that I think doesn't get discussed enough. Um, and it's a topic that is probably gonna highlight some things in your business that you need to know a lot more about. And um to tell us about um or to help us today with the topic that we're gonna be discussing, which is bankruptcy and insolvency, because it's something that happens a lot in our industry. And I guess before I introduce him, I'm gonna give you a couple of stats. So um, 70 to 75 percent of insolvencies are small service-based businesses in the construction industry. Uh, in 2025, and this is all um based off ASEC records, but uh in 2025, in construction there was over 4,700 insolvencies and 3,250 of those were small construction services. So this is something that I'm really passionate about, and I I bang on about it all the time because I firmly believe that if the cot if a building business, if the cost to build with a builder actually got more expensive, it's going to reduce the cost of building because if there's 4,700 businesses going bankrupt or insolvent each year, we're talking hundreds, if not billions, of dollars that are getting added to all the cost of everything that we pay, our insurances, our building materials, all their labour, everything that we do. So to dive into this a bit deeper and to help us understand a lot more about this today, massive warm welcome to uh Marcus from McKay Goodwin, advisory and restructuring firm. How are you, buddy?

SPEAKER_01 7:49

G'day, buddy. How are you going? Thank you for having me on. It's uh it's a pleasure to be here. And and like myself, mate, I I'm excited to get on there because I really want to get the word out and help those people out there that you know might be after some tips or struggling a little bit and maybe we can set them straight and give them some options.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

Yeah, well mate, look, it's it's taking a little while to hook this up, but I'm glad you've come up from Sydney today and I'm pleased. Um I really appreciate your time and and coming up here. Of course. Um, mate, nothing's off limits. Um I want to really sort of dive deep into this because look, as as I think we've discussed, or you and I've discussed off air, like the construction construction industry is broken in more ways than one. Yeah. And there's a lot of families, a lot of a lot of people get hurt.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Um mate, there's a there absolutely hurt out there. There's a lot of um, like let's let's let's start with the top. You know, there's education in terms of, you know, you've got a tradesman or you've got someone who's incredibly good at their craft, but running a business is not necessarily something that they do or they're familiar with. So we've got that sort of things. Then we've got, you know, you've got your licensing provisions and uh the government agencies that that I guess kind of look after those areas. Then you have your insurance, right? Not to mention uh disputes. Um and uh do you have SOPA or equivalent up here? The Security of Payments Act, which is something that's over in in New South Wales. Um and then there's obviously reliability, there's the cost, so there's just so much going on, and it's the bread and butter, it's the backcut backbone of our economy. Yeah. And it's something that is neglected. And you know, I I think um someone needs to step in and standardise and and provide the help that it needs.

SPEAKER_03 9:39

Mate, before we um I should have to go back a little bit, because um you're you're not someone that uh I would think would be rocking up to me to talk about insolvency. I had a I had a different um vision in my mind. Yeah. So before we get into it, like can you give us a little

Marcus’s Path Into Restructuring

SPEAKER_03 9:57

bit of background?

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Yeah, mate. So my background, I uh so I'm a an accountant, I'm a CPA accountant. Um I have been in the game for roughly 20 years, bit over two decades. Uh I started off as a junior working in um at a firm called uh in Sydney. Um and uh mate, I got into marketing and I come from my family, it's a mix of of teachers and and construction. Right. Um bricklayers actually. And um, you know, my parents always wanted me to force me to sort of go to uni. I went to uni, uh studied marketing, got ahead for radio, right? So couldn't really get a role there. And um I got into to insolvency, got into accountant, became a uh um CPA accountant. I've done all the qualifications with respect to our professional bodies. I've worked overseas. I worked in London during the GSC um for a couple of years, which was which was a real eye-opener. Um and uh look, I I I tend to kind of go against the grain when it comes to the stereotypical accountant. Most people think I'm a uh bean counter, or they come up and say, mate, can you do my tax? I'm like, mate, I'll pay someone else to do my tax. Like, my my thing is not tax, my thing is restructuring, uh, is debt advisory um and and um you know helping companies and and creditors out with sticky situations and coming up with strategy.

The Usual Slide Into Tax Debt]

SPEAKER_01 11:26

So I love helping people.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

So what what would the typical scenario be of someone that comes to you?

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Yeah, okay, so made I well give you I'll give you some. Recently we had one building company and um probably had three or four staff, um had a tax debt tax issue, and and it resulted, believe it or not, what was from a a disputed debt. Um they owed money by the developer for uh for retentions, they weren't gonna pay the retentions, they got an old battle. Of course, the developers got more money than the building company, refused to pay, dragged him out. First thing they go is the tax. Right. People tend to, particularly people in construction, but you know, around the traps, the ATO is considered to be you know Australia's fifth largest bank. Right? It's okay, taxable pay it, deal with it later on. Problem is that it doesn't necessarily get paid. They rot off those debts, then you get this the general interest charge and that type of thing, or you're accruing the the tax amount by over I think it's about 12% per annum. Um and they just they just can't it might even slow down, they're having cash flow issues, you know, one bad concern or issue on a build, and they're on the back for it. All right? And these guys just could not get out. And uh they attempted to speak with the tax office about trying to uh obtain assistance, either a payment arrangement or remission of the GIC. Couldn't do it. It was going nowhere fast. So what what's GIC, mate? So G I C is is that general interest charge. So if you don't pay the tax on time, the the let's just say your BAS statements, right? Uh the P O Y G or the GST on time, it is then subject to GIC, which is general interest charge. And if the tax office really don't like it, they'll throw on some penalties on top of that as well.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Okay, so that starts to accrue.

SPEAKER_03 13:24

So it's something that happens to all-size businesses. Like you mate, I personally, like I used to think in silences bankruptcies were like big companies, but it happens to every day, mum and made.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Mate, absolutely. And I think it's really important to note there's a lot more mum and dad small businesses than those big boys because you think of that because that's what's out there in the papers and you see in the media, but you actually don't see what's really going on behind the scenes, you know.

Small Business Restructure Explained

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Yeah. So just getting back to like that particular company, uh, they tried to have uh enter into negotiation with the tax office, informal, see if they could get a bit of reduction, wouldn't do it. They came into an SB, we did a uh a small business restructure. Not sure if you've heard of that, but that's called a SBR. And basically we come in and prov act as like a consultant, they stay in control of the business, they keep um trading the business, we come in the back end, and we help them put forward a plan where they're gonna pay cents in the dollar, typically cents in the dollar, um, of of the debt. They put forward a proposal, I think that one was around 32 cents in the dollar, paid over a period of two years. You can pay up to 36 months, um, and uh the balance of the debt once it's all paid off is written off. So they were able to enter into an appointment. We actually it's a formal appointment at the SBR, it's notified on ASIC, um, it's a legal process, and we negotiate legally with the tax office to get that tax down. And what we when we get it down, I mean it's not it just gets written off. We need to show improvement. So why did it get to that point? What are you gonna do next time to change it? How are you gonna be profitable moving forward? And it's not selling, hey, you've got to take this because in a liquidation where everything just gets wound up, you get nothing. No, that we don't want you this to happen again. Right? So part of the plan will say, Roddy, someone like your good self, mate, get a business catch, help someone with your pricing. You know, I've been doing this if oh, I've got no time to do it, so I just did the same as last time. Nah, you know, something needs to change. Yeah, and then we kind of put that forward.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

It's um save jobs. Well, mate, it's it's a lot better way to go. The um markets are getting excited over there, you're gonna hear lots of banging on the back. I sweat like an org too, mate.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

So, yeah, don't worry about me, I'm always sweating.

Overheads Pricing And The Profit Myth

SPEAKER_03 15:52

But um, mate, I like we've um yeah, as I like, I don't know, earlier this year, 2026, uh my training business lived like Bill, but like we hit our 1,000th um person that has come through. We've got three different programs, and we've had 1,000 people through those programs, but yeah, it doesn't matter which one of those programs they choose. One of the things that all our programs get is we call it our overhead calculator. Um, so we spend time with members helping them understand what their true overheads are.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

And mate, out of that thousand builders, I can honestly sit here hand on heart and say that I can count on one hand how many building businesses have been close. Like that, and that like that's reality. And so most what and you I'm surprised it's that, to be honest. Well, you know more about this than I do, but um from what I've seen, like a lot of builders understand their their overheads, like the insurances, uh admin, the the uh uh like all the printing, like all the shit that happens in the office. But where they go wrong is they're not allowing for like they don't understand their roles and tasks in the business. They're not in like they they might have their wife or partner working the business for free. Um they don't allow any time for them themselves.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

So what you're saying is their time and and their salaries and stuff isn't actually put uh isn't inserted within the the the cost program as such. Yeah. So therefore, yeah, they're busting their ass, yeah, it's profitable, but you're not getting paid, mate.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

They're not getting paid. And so all they're doing is say at the end of every financial year is just whatever the accountant says, hey, the the company's made or you've made sixty thousand dollars, but your company's made a hundred thousand dollar loss. Yeah, we'll talk about that more as well, because you you you're uh all over people stealing from the business, but um, but just little things as well, like not understanding like depreciation is is a real cost, and uh like um super and work cover and like all these little things that have to be accounted for. Absolutely, mate.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

And the tax is not the profit. Yeah, and that's another one. I'll go, oh, we're trading, mate, we've got profit, we make this much, man, and we pull it pull it through a go, mate. You you're wrong. Look at look you've you've literally be just been you've been pocketing the tax because and not intentionally, you just don't know the difference, right? That's what you you don't realize you need to remit it, or if it's too late, or if you think you're gonna bring it up. So that's really important is the costings. I think, and and you made a point before where you're saying, you know, if they get that right, it'll actually save insultencies. Like putting more in your pocket will keep you more in control, keep your thumb on the on the pulse, so to speak, and save you. So you're not reactive, you're actually proactive, yeah, and you're able to forecast and and to plan.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

I think numbers are massive, mate. I think numbers get very overlooked. And I I look looking back in the day, if it had been harder, I probably wouldn't have got my licence. But I I am such an advocate now for it needs to be harder to get a building license or a trades license, because you would see this, I'm sure, as well. Like I I feel like, and this is speaking a lot from my own personal experience as well, back in the day when I was running a shit show, but a lot of the issue was like when you start building, like if you you get your builders' license, you start building houses, like all of a sudden you're dealing with a lot of big chunk of money. And if you don't understand your overheads, and I bang on about this all the time on podcast, my listeners are gonna be going, fuck, he's like a broken record. But the um like I this is what I did. Like, I I I started my building business, I started getting decent contracts in. Let's say they were $500,000. Yeah, our industry throws this 10% figure around. So in my mind, I was like, fuck, I'm making 10%, like 50 grand. I'm turning over eight million bucks, I'm making 800 grand. So I'm yeah, I'm spending that money, yeah. Absolutely. But I didn't know at the time that my overheads were costing me 1.2. Yeah. And every every time I took money out myself, I was actually stealing from the company.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

So when did you realise that it wasn't right? Who showed you? And was it a fact that you and did a bit of a deep dive? Like you got off the tools and went in there, like was an accountant.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

We were uh So this is where this is my story. So I've so Sharon that's um down in our office at the moment, this year's her 20th year with me. Yeah, right. Uh she's a charred accountant in her own right, she works for us two days a week, her and her husband have a very successful business. Yeah, and this is like I really struggle with it. And so she started as my bookkeeper, we worked through things, and she would be on my back all the time. Man, you can't buy that. You can't afford that, like you've got no money. Like, and like I I used to remember back in the day, like I would sit, she would print me off a list of bills to pay, and we used to have to go through it with a red line, and I used to have to pick and choose which ones we could afford to pay and which ones we'd have to make excuses for and push out and tax. Like we ended up on tax payment plans multiple times, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and so the thing what I've like I didn't understand, like she was trying to teach me what I needed to know, but I wasn't taking it in and it wasn't sort of relaying to me, yeah. But it was more than just knowing what she was telling me. Like I needed to it was costing the materials and the labor correctly, it was understanding my worth in the business, it was like understanding her time in the business and her salary, like there's so many different parts of the thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

So it was going through that that that process where you're identifying what you could and what you couldn't pay, it's just like mate, that that's fantastic, but something needs to change you, something's not right. I shouldn't be doing this. Yeah, yeah. And I'm getting these cool contracts.

SPEAKER_03 21:29

Yeah, and I made for a long time it took me years, like I just couldn't it just didn't click. Like I was like, fuck, we're doing we're turning over millions of dollars. Like, how can I not be making money? But mate, it and look, people will probably think I'm um well I've told this a a lot of times as well, like it took me six or eight years of that up and down roller coaster because like we would have one awesome job and everything would go to plan and all of a sudden we'd have a chunk of change in the in the bank. But again, not understanding tax and GST and all those. I'd go and buy a new truck. Like 24 years old, mate. I went and wrote a check for 160 grand on a boat. Like I I thought I was rolling in it, but reality was but what um so where I actually got to, mate, is it all caught up

When It Breaks You Mentally

SPEAKER_03 22:13

with me. Yeah, and I got to a point where I was quite literally ready to go and throw a rope around a tree. Like I was we had a young family, couldn't pay any my bills, the bank was gonna take things, yeah. Um and I just couldn't figure it out. I was like, what I'm a good tradesman, like what what's wrong with me? Yeah, like I was blaming and you're getting back to basics, yeah. Yeah, but um, but look, in that time, and I and I think this is where it's so hard for our industry because so through that hard time, like I was good at what I did, I was good at my craft, I was good at um being a carpenter. So I I built up Australia, like I had Queensland's largest subcontract carpenter business by the time I was 24 years old. Yeah, we had 40 plus carpenters, so a turnover was great, and then when I became a builder, the turnover continued to grow. And so, although I was so shit at understanding my money, like my my overheads and my margins and my tax and all those types of things, I did start to pull money out of the business and invest in property. And so where and I think this is where a lot of people get caught. I was making money off the property that was helping cover all the mistakes I was making in my business. And then I got to a point when all the when it did all finally catch up with me, yeah, and the bank I did actually lose some property, yeah. I paid everybody out. Like I still remember um a couple of phone calls, like one of one of them was our hardware, which we had a very big deal with.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

And you would have had a personal guarantee on that too, right? Like the trade account or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

Yeah, but I I remember having to I still remember it, mate, having to ring my hardware and go, mate, like I'm in the shit. Yeah, I promise I will pay you. I've got some properties, yeah, they've got some equity in them. Yeah, and I did, mate. I s I sold my rental properties and I sold no one lost money except me, but a lot of people aren't in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

No, they aren't. Well, they're not luck firstly, they're not lucky enough. Well, at least you invested it in bloody property, right? And I went up and I was able to subsidize that. But it couldn't be a good thing. Many do not, right? Like others have problems going to the pub or playing the pokies or doing whatever it is, and it it catches up, they got nothing there. But in your instance, in that particular instance, as you say, it was masking the problem. You didn't really need to see or identify the the problem as such or the hemorrhage of cash going out, because there was always that there to cover your backside. And the question is, well, what if you knew that wasn't

Remortgaging The House Without Change

SPEAKER_01 24:35

there? You're going to do a little investigation, plug that hemorrhage, plug that hole, and use that money elsewhere, you'd be ten times better off. Yeah. Right. And I we see it regularly, particularly with like often in construction too, where the guy's like, Yeah, we had a project, mate, and it didn't go well, but you know, I've I've I've remortgaged the house. And all right, fantastic, mate. Red in the house, at least you've been accountable and stuff. Yeah. But they haven't changed anything for the next project. Yeah. And guess what? The next one finishes and they're at a bloody loss again, and they're drawing further and further down to the point where they need to sell the bloody house. Yeah. Right? And then the house they don't get enough for the house to pay out the debts I got. 100%. So then they're cooked or they're in a bit of strife. Right, but if they had noticed that earlier on, they could have identified it, isolated it, put in processes to change it, and he'd still have his house or have a shitload more equity in it. So with that, it's what I'm trying to say is like if it's not adding up, and you know when it's not adding up, you reach out, you identify, you don't put your head in the sand and keep going out. And it's not about being proud, it's not about you being an idiot, right? I think we go a step back from when you're saying it's got to be more education and more thorough course to be a trade. I'm gonna go a step back and say, mate, to be a director of a company, doesn't matter it's your construction or anything else, mate. Half a day course, some basic info.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

Yeah, that's what my big one of my big things now, mate, is you you've got to learn from people that have done it. 100%. Look, because you like you think I was actually only having a conversation with my daughter, um, she's on block exams at mate. I've been tracked from school and she um uh I think she had a business test or something today, and uh she's like, Oh dad, I think I went really bad. And I was like, What do you mean? She's like, Oh I didn't understand this, and she was talking about world economics and stuff, and I said, Oh, look, don't be too hard on yourself because it's good and no offense to teachers out there, but I said there's a good chance that a teacher teaching you isn't that good at it either. Because if if she was, she would have to be a good one. Exactly. And dad said, Oh, it's she said, Dad, it's funny you say that because um the the teacher's got her own business, but it doesn't support a lifestyle, so she's got to be a teacher. So with exactly what you're talking about, yeah. If it's very hard, like the problem with that is that pe if they start these courses, although people teaching these courses that haven't got the runs on the board.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

No, and so they're not they're not gonna be respected, they're not gonna listen to them. But okay, you guys have a white card up here. Is it a white card? We have white cards. I think I've got my white card from Bloody Brisbane or Queensland. Um, part of the white card course. You know, if you're gonna get your white card with the view of opening your own company, mate, just tick the box. Is the company's bank account your personal bank account? No. Um you know, can you, you know, if you're starting to see that your tax is is building up and you're not making any kind of um dent in in reducing it, contact your accountant. You know, just simple basic facts. Don't just go, mate, the guy spent four years doing this, but he's gonna get undone by all this red tape over here that no one's taught him about anything. And guess who loses? We lose as a as a country, as a society, mate. They keep saying we need to build houses, particularly in Sydney, in New South Wales. We've got to build houses, we need more people out and then we'll trade. Mate, that's all well and good. But you get a trader that falls over because someone's not paying his bill, right? And he goes into liquidation, gets wound up, right? And then bloody fair trade didn't want to take his license so he can no longer trade again. Right? It's something that was not his fault, his or her fault. Right? Like, how does that make sense?

Licences Home Warranty And Red Tape

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Or they go for a restructure and then they're able to maintain their building license, but the um is it ICAR? I don't know who it is in New South Wales. They've all got these different names, right? Who provides a home warranty? No, we don't like the fact that that happened, so we're not gonna give him anything over 20 grand. Like, how are we meant to move forward?

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Yeah, that whole um home warranty insurance is is a complete ballzack, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Mate, it's no is anyone an expert in it? I don't know. People come to me and go, oh, I don't want to do an SBR, which is that restructure that we discussed before, right? Because my home warranty insurance, I won't get it again. And I said, Well, look, uh the way I see it happening, and I'll just use New South Wales, for example, is that as soon as you go and do a formal appointment in SBR, um, a voluntary administration or a liquidation, I don't want to get too technical, right? Is a different appointment type, but I'm gonna run with SBR and um the home warranty insurance upon appointment will still cover you for your prior bills or bills that you entered into before that appointment date. Yeah. For any bills moving forward, you're suspended until the restructure is print uh basically completed or it's still in process. And then so when you come for a new to a new for a new build to do an whilst in that SBR appointment, you then make an application to either iCare or whoever the the body is, and they will then make an assessment as to whether or not they want to either reinstate your prior cover or give you a reduced one, right? And that's going to come down to your past experiences, any other kind of complaints that have been made against you, how much of your tax debt is done, but it's at their discretion. Yeah. So there's always a risk. But let's give people a little bit more surety because then they often hesitate. They don't make these appointments where they can get out of trouble, and then guess what happens? It gets wound up by the courts, and then they've got absolutely no options. And then what are we stuck with? We're stuck with this poor fella who's done all these courses who could produce what we want to do, but red tape's keeping him back from feeding his family and also building the bloody houses that we need. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's a vicious cycle. It's it's it's it's it's a vicious cycle, and you know, it's something that needs to be addressed, and that's why I applaud you, mate. Like you're trying to get the word out there and you're trying to standardise it, and you're trying to make it as clear as possible, and to let people know that these things do happen and you know, reach out, ask for help. Yeah. And let's put some steps and and processes in place to identify it, to remedy it, and prevent it from happening again.

SPEAKER_03 31:19

I think that's a very important message. Like, if if you're if you're in a business right at the moment, you're listening to this podcast and your business is struggling, don't be too proud.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

No, mate.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

Because that that's what got me in the shit. Like, I I struggled for years.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

Mate, like do not be too proud. And people will go, oh, but such and such will find out about it. Mate, you'll be surprised how many people support you through this process. Because they liked you, they know you've tried to do the right thing. Often it's a case where it's not your own fault, you've done nothing about it, and they want your business moving forward too, yeah. So often they're happy to work with you.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

So does when you go into that small business restructure, do you have to notify

Notifying Creditors And Staying Transparent

SPEAKER_03 31:58

people?

SPEAKER_01 31:58

We do, yep. So we notify, we'll notify the creditors. Now, majority of the time, I'd say in probably 90% of the cases, it's the tax office. So we'll notify them, we'll notify uh any other creditors who uh who are owed money at that particular point in time. So let's say you've gone and you've taken an order for some brickie sand or something like that, and it's on account at that day. Well, they're owed money on the date of your appointment, so they'll be notified.

SPEAKER_04 32:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Uh if they weren't there, they wouldn't be notified, they'd form part of a different estate, yeah of the estate. So it's the debts that are owed on the date of appointment. After after that, it is paid in the ordinary course of business. So that's all we're dealing with there. Because I feel like that had put a few people off.

SPEAKER_03 32:43

Like, and again, I 100%. I would say don't let it hold you back. Because I'd I'd rather like if I was ever in that situation again, which touch would I am not going to be, but um yeah, my advice would be that you know you do the small business restructure as soon as possible. You'd you'd stop being proud about things, you'd you notify whoever has to be notified. Because I I seen a builder um up here in Brisbane probably only 12, 18 months ago, that like I I was getting told by some of my contractors, oh, have you heard about such and such? And I I knew who they were talking about. Yeah. And I'm like, he's fine, like he's he's he's trying to work his way out of it, like he's doing the right thing and like support him, yeah. So the subbies were all getting nervous that they weren't they weren't gonna get paid and things, and like so I had a word with two or three of them that we both used, yeah, and just had to say to him, like, look, he's if he's gone that way, then he's actually doing the right thing and he's working his way out of it, and you're probably better off working for him than someone that isn't working through that.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Well, because guess what? You'll get even you'll get burnt more. Yeah, unless he's been open and transparent. But but the other thing is too, mate, you reach out to your accountant, reach out to a lawyer, reach out to yourself. You got a problem, mate. We can have an informal chat. And I'd say, bud, this is the circumstance, this is what I reckon's the best thing for you. Well, reach out to you. Well, yeah, either all. You know what I mean. But we're here, yeah, and uh you're not judged, and I'll go, look, this is what you can expect, this is what's gonna happen. Mate, unfortunately, you've got to make the best out of a bad situation. It's not gonna be bells and whistles, it is gonna be slightly tough, but you will get through it.

SPEAKER_03 34:21

Yeah, you will survive. And um at least then it gives you some assurity and I guess peace of mind, like you can you can rest at night, you can you support your family.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

You raised two really good points, mate. You said, you know, that you when you were in business, you know, you didn't know what to do, you're considering some kind of really nasty stuff there. Yeah. And also two, your mind's racing, right? Mate, a phone call to me, I can put you in bloody mind at ease. You know, it's it does not need to get to

ATO Pressure Notices And Fast Deadlines

SPEAKER_01 34:51

that point. And whilst you get the the ATO at the moment, they're they're mate, they are they're they're they're they're ripping in and um in in ways that I've never seen before. And you know what, they've got the integrity of the tax system bubble. And I I understand that. We all pay tax. I get it, right? Tax isn't a bad thing, mate. Mate, it's why we live in a beautiful country, yeah. Right? We walk we've got beautiful sidewalks and everything else. It's because of tax. It's because of the system, right? So, you know, we've got to pay.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

That could be a whole other podcast, yeah, mate.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Yeah, don't get me started on that. But um, you know, they are tough, but don't feel cornered. You do have options, uh, you know, and you can choose your own path. You just need to be, you just need to know what those options are so you can then make the right decision and you can't come back. Yeah, but mate, the other thing I say to people, mate, you're sitting there tossing it, how long, how long some guy goes, Oh, I'm gonna know my next kid, Marcus. I said, mate, don't be a fool. I don't like my name. But um, but it's just like, look, but I was tossing a turn for three years and no one could give me options. Not not only was I uh a bad during that period I was stressed, I was a bad dad, I was a bad husband, right? Because I was always in my own little world, catastrophizing, right? Yeah. Oh fuck, if excuse me, or if I do this, if this doesn't happen, then this will happen, this will happen, this will happen. But 99.9% of the times what they have in their mind that they build up all over these years ain't gonna happen, right? So then they start thinking about, you know, I've been a bad husband, I've been a bad dad, but also you haven't been good in your job because your mind is all swear, so your business is failing as well, yeah, you know, and it's helping no one. And he's just like, mate, you're able to come through, provide a solution, address my troubles, and now we're back on my feet. He's just like you're a god. It's not that I'm a god, mate, it's just that you you weren't aware of what your options were. Yeah, and um, I'm just glad to see you back on your feet, but also too, I'm glad to see that you got as much back money to the creditors as you could. Yeah, because you could have easily closed up shop and just belted.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

It's a better outcome for everyone, it's a better outcome for the individual, the family, the the business, the economy.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Like and there's no automatic use of term for ipso factor heard of that thing before. No. Basically, what that is is as soon as you make an appointment, right, you lose your ticket. Right? You lose your ticket, then that happens, I'll say, in the belt, your license. Your license, right? In a in a voluntary administration and a liquidation, for example, it's suspended immediately. In an SBR it is not. Yeah, well, that's like if you lose your license, you can't operate. Exactly right. So if an SBR, there's no automatic suspension or termination or anything like that on appointment. It is time to give you breathing space for you to put forward a plan. Yeah.

SBR Rules And Eligibility Checklist

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Now, how do you qualify for an SBR? Is the question, right? Now, this is the SBRs at the moment, they sit there. There's four main criteria. One of them is it's got to be under a million bucks in total debt. All your batch statements and lodgements need to be up to date. Your super and your wages need to be paid by at least the time of the plan going forward, and you can't have done an SBR within the past seven years, right? So that's the criteria, and everyone's like, well, hang on a second. You know, a million bucks, that's bloody nothing. I've got all this, that, and the other, and I'm like, that's fine, but that's the criteria, right? And if you if it's a small kind of cash flow or I'd imagine there's a lot of companies that go broke for less than a million bucks. Oh mate, it's eps. I've got to put it for 50. 50 grand, I just don't have the money. And they're they're threatening to sue me and do all this. I'm like, mate, well, yeah, we've gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

But we obviously hear about the big ones on on in the media, like whether a couple of million, ten million, hundreds of millions of dollars, but I would imagine there'd be well out of that out of those thousands of companies that have gone insolvent, like I'd imagine a huge chunk of them are under a million.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

And that for us, like that's that's Mackay Gulbin, that's kind of our our sweet spot. We're kind of the micro to SME kind of basis. Um, you know, uh whilst we do take on the bigger jobs, you know, you'll find me out in the suburbs, mate, and I'll be you know, and I'll go and knock on doors of accountants and um suburban accountants and lawyers. I'll do 10 cold calls a week. Yeah. I am in the air and knock on the door, mate. I'm here to help. Yeah. If you got anyone that's having any trouble, mate, but while you're here, good timing. Yeah, you know, and I'd say the majority of those kind of suburban accountants are businesses that would fit that criteria for sure.

Director Loans And Taking Cash Out

SPEAKER_03 39:21

Yeah. Um, can we dive into like because you're you're obviously all over the accounting and stuff as well, like people don't understand it when I say that if you're just taking the crumbs that's left over at the end of the job that you're well you're using the the company credit card just to live off, you're you're stealing from their business. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

They don't understand that. Can you dive into that a bit? Mate, mate, I see it, I reckon every second company that comes through will see on the on the balance sheet being a director loan. I uh I once had one bloke, he called me up, and he's just like, mate, I want to do an SBR. And I said, that's fine, you do an SBR. But the tax office, you can qualify, but the tax office in their assessment criteria, they hate poor compliance. That's number one. You got poor compliance, you've been refusing to lodge or being recalcitrant or not paying lodging on time, they don't they won't warm towards it. And then the next one is uh director loan. I don't have a director loan. I pay everyone on time. I've been paying my wages and doing this. I'm like mate, all the money you've been ripping out and you haven't provided your accountant with a invoice that you've either bought yourself something right that you shouldn't have, or alternatively, it does it what you've provided it is not sufficient enough to make it an expense. So it's considered to be something that you've drawn out of the company. So irrespective of you being the sole director and sole shareholder, it is a separate entity to you. Yeah, you have a separate bank account to that. So if you're drawing stuff out there that just can't be justified, it goes on to obligate as if you owe the company money. Yep. And that ain't good. And the tax office hate to see that because what they think of is mate, if you didn't rip out that cash, you would have paid your tax. And the tax had been a criminal, why you've been pulling out more money, right? And then another one that came across.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Sorry, do but anyway, like any toy problem because we're going tangents. Do you look I I've definitely we've got I've got a director's loan now, that's nowhere near what it used to be. Like again, that's something else that I hadn't I just did not understand.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

You didn't, but you had the right planning in place, right? So the way that you'd have it is something called a Div 7A loan. Yeah, right. So you'd pay that back over a period of seven years out of the future profits. Yeah. Right? Yeah. That that's allowed. That's fine. But not when you're pro when your business is making a loss, you can't be pulling, pulling money out to pay yourself, right?

SPEAKER_03 41:54

It just doesn't make sense. It like that's this is one that I believe comes back to people not understanding, like they I think a lot of people in our in our industry don't they they don't change their mindset from a tradie to a business owner. And so they they just think that I've priced the work, I've done the work, I've paid for all the materials, I've covered the labour, whatever's left at the end that is mine.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 42:20

And like some of it is look in practice, it makes sense what they're saying. But in but in those, in the cost, they actually need to have a salary for them. That's right. Like, and I don't know, correct?

SPEAKER_01 42:33

But no, no, you're spot on, and and that not only makes sense, right? Whatever's left over, it's my company, it's my thing, so I should just be able to take it, right? But that's not necessarily the case. But the reason why they think like that is because a lot of their accountants allow them to get away with that, yeah, right? And and so they're not getting a true understanding of their bottom line when they're not putting their time and and and and uh costs associated with that into the costings of the build.

SPEAKER_03 43:05

So when you're when your accountant says to you at the end of the year that you've made 80 grand, but your company's made a hundred thousand dollar loss, you've really only made twenty.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 43:17

Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

In enough. Like in s in simple hundred percent. Like in a simple explanation. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

And and but but it's the simple explanation that we need to do in that we need to change in this industry.

SPEAKER_03 43:31

Well that that was I think that's something that I was very confused with for a long time. It's something that added to my problem because I I was like, well fuck, if the company's making a loss, I've still made money.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

Yeah, exactly right.

SPEAKER_03 43:41

I can I can spend this.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Who's losing? Yeah, no one here. Oops, st oops, you know, I don't need to change anything. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean one hundred percent. And and I think what it comes also comes back to is mate, your accountant, how many tradies do you come across that

Choosing Accountants And Checking Often

SPEAKER_01 43:59

um See their accountant, you know, at the year end, and that's pretty much it. They go with a shoebox full of receipts. Here's my stuff, work your magic. So the whole thing is really just do it. And then and then they come in, they go, Well, we'll call them and go, What do you fucking mean? I've got a tax debt or I've got a direct dollar. So that's what your accounts provider. So, mate, he's meant to be dealing up looking after that side of the thing. I'm doing this. I don't fucking have a clue what I'm doing over there. I'll leave it all with him. But unfortunately, you can leave it with him. But he's not the one that's going to be having a bloody answer to the authorities or the bloody tax office or whoever it is about the conduct of conduct of the company. It's you. It sticks with you. So get involved in it and get involved regularly, right? And your reporting systems, look at them, understand them, check in with your accountant. Don't just leave it all at the last minute and then be forced to kind of react thereon in, right?

SPEAKER_02 44:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

And uh was it a uh costing system that you mentioned before? Use something like that.

SPEAKER_03 45:05

Oh, we we call it our overhead calculator. Like we we work through our members get a copy of it, they fill it out, they work through it. And but that look, it's like every industry has people that aren't shouldn't be doing what they're doing. Yeah, and like I've got so many streams that um they get our overhead calculator and they say, Oh, I've sat in my account and we filled it out and we we don't agree. He doesn't agree.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

And I was like, mate, you've built ours is your accountant build, mate.

SPEAKER_03 45:33

No, but like when it comes to overheads and things, like I I really try and drum into my my members, my my listeners, that you have to treat yourself as an employee to your company. And so you need to get paid for the role that you play in your business. Absolutely. Just like everybody else that works for you, you need to get paid whenever your other employees get paid, you need to get super, you need to get work cover, like all the benefits that an employee gets. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

And also, too, things happen on the site, right? So let's just say I know something shits the bed, and at the end of the day, there's not a pile of cash left over after paying everyone for you, then you're missing out. You know what I'm saying? If you're getting paid a wage or or something along those lines to represent what you're doing and the costings of it, you will then be able to see the forecast at the end. Okay, something needs to change here because it's not looking good, right? So it all comes down to you know having reliable, relevant data to be able to make informed decisions moving forward. Yeah, we've got to get out of this whole, push it down to the end and work and deal with it retrospectively. It's about putting the stuff in place. So when it does come to the end, everyone's a bloody winner. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:45

You know, but it's okay for a and again, this is something that I struggle with. Like I didn't I thought that I was ripping my clients off if I was making too much money. And yet, like I I've I get it now. Like, I have to get paid for my job. Of course you do. And for my company to be sustainable, my company has to make a profit. Of course it does. Like that that's just reality. What's the point of being in business, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:11

Like that 100% and well, taking all the risk, all the liability, like everything that comes with it. IP. It's taking you how long? That's what I say to everyone, yeah, mate, it's taking you two phone calls to sort out this problem that I've been chasing around for a while. I've got, oh, you don't need to get, you know, any of that. Like, you don't need to be paid for that. I said, Oh, I don't want to be paid for it, but just to let you know, it's taken 20 years to build up the network and the IP to be able to make those two phone calls to save your ass. Yeah. And it's the same as builders and tradies, right? Yeah. They're so bloody expensive, they're this or that. Yeah, but mate, you don't understand what it's gone in to do that thing. They're only here for an hour. I can't change your toilet seat, I can't change any of the bloody pipes.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

You know, so there's that mutual respect and stand up for yourself and you are good and you are worth it. And when someone puts forward a plan to meet, particularly in construction, mate, I'll I'll say to them, mate, increase your prices. You know, increase your prices or or put in a process. Or here's another one. Engage a marketing company to maybe increase your turnover and your revenue. Or, you know, I think the support to services is really important as well. Like engage a business coach, engage a bloody marketing company, you know, um, train your staff so they're up to date with all the new stuff.

SPEAKER_04 48:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Right? So to make it more efficient. Put in the software processes, you know, change. Yeah, yeah, I don't know, like there's there is there is just so much opportunity, and it's just getting out there and having a crack and you know, don't worry about the what if.

SPEAKER_03 48:44

Yeah. The tax man's a a nasty person, isn't he? Like, you don't want to get on the wrong side of him. No, mate.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

Um, look, uh they they've always been they're always there. Right, over COVID and post-COVID, they sort of were just taking a backward step. Just status quo, keep it alive. You know, we don't want businesses to go, and then all of a sudden, mate, they want their cash. And so, you know, people don't quite understand that, all right, so you know, the past couple of years, we're allowed to go on a payment plan or just a lodge and not have to pay, and we've built up two, three hundred grand worth of debt, which um is taking 18 months to build, but then we get a demand saying that they want that repaid in 21 days or 28 days. Impossible. And and that's the risk, they can do that, of course, and now's the time that they want to do it, and you have to act, you have to do something about it. So when you receive something called a director penalty notice or a DPN, you get one of these documents, or you get something called a statement of claim or a stat demand, you do not sit on it and just let it put your head in the sand and fight away because it will not. If you do nothing about it, you're taking all your options away. You know, whilst you've got these notices, they're not great, but you've still got options. But if you forget about them, they go down the they expire or whatever, mate, you your your your options are slowly depleting and you will find yourself cornered. Yeah. You know, so it's what would what would make you get one of those? So a DPN, um, a director penalty notice, it's just basically a notice from the tax ban saying, mate, you've got a tax debt. The company has a tax debt, for example. And I hope that most companies are, most builders are incorporated and it um, you know, just for the the protection and and the corporate bail. Um, but you've company's got a tax debt, you have not been interacting with us or entertaining it or paying it. So, Mr. or Mrs. Director, we're gonna issue you with a with a penalty, and you're now gonna be become personally liable for that debt. So that they are, it's not that it's transferring from the company to you, they're making you both liable until it pays it's paid off. So that's a DPN, and that's really important, right? Because if you don't think you have the ability to pay it out, the company, you know, if it's if if it meets certain criteria and is a 21-day DPN, if you can appoint an SBR, an administrator, or a liquidator within 21 days of that notice, you you're freed of the personal liability. Yeah. So you forget about 100%. So if you ignore it, good on you. You just added an extra couple hundred grand to your personal bank account. And then the company goes in liquidation, they go, well, that's a company debt. No, but remember this letter you got over here that you did nothing about? Yeah, so you're gonna get nothing in the liquidation, but now they're gonna come over to you personally.

SPEAKER_03 51:46

Yeah, far right. There's so much to know in there, but like you just um brought it up then about companies. Like, look, I'm I'm definitely no accounting or legal advice person, like everything on this podcast, my own personal opinion. But I still get so many builders that come, ask me questions, come into our platform that are sole traders.

SPEAKER_01 52:07

And and for how long? And you're like, mate. You're like, why are you a sole trader? I don't know. I didn't know the option. I'm going off my account. Like, seriously, you need to change your account and you need to get some advice. What are you doing? Is it HR block? Oh, I probably can't say that. You know what I mean? Like, get yourself like speaker out and ask your trade, ask your ask your mates on site. Have you got a good accountant? I want to speak to him. Are you happy with him? Is he proactive or is she proactive? They got good advice. Yeah, you know, don't just go with the status quo because again, they're not the ones that are gonna be, you know, they're not the ones holding the the shit sandwich at the end of the day, right? It's gonna be you. And and they they they wipe all well, it's not us, we didn't do it, we didn't, we didn't pass it on, we didn't lodge it, it was up to them. And here so you've got an accountant over here saying, No, they've not given me instructions and they're not being proactive. You've got you going over here saying the accountant's doing it, so in the middle, whoever it is, right? There's nothing happening, and then shit hits the fan, and it's your problem, not theirs. Yeah, so you know, you just got to be careful about just being proactive, get out there, there's some really good accountants out there, and do not pick your accountant. This is one bit of advice for everyone. I got a guy who said, Oh, yeah, I've got a great accountant and he charged me 1600 bucks a year. I said, Man, he's fantastic. He's not lodged any of your best statements on time, and you're personally liable for $350,000 of your uh company's tax debt. What a good accountant. So just because he's cheap doesn't mean he's he's good. You know, I if they're really, really cheap, I'll be questioning the service that they're doing.

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SPEAKER_03 53:55

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Paying For Good Advice Pays Back

SPEAKER_03 56:01

products. I feel that that's another huge problem with the industry, mate, is that everyone's got a mate and everyone's mate looks after them. Like I agree 100% with you, but I didn't always, like now, these days, the the better, the higher the fee, the better the service I'm gonna get. The safer I'm gonna be, the more protected I'm gonna get, the better advice I'm gonna get. Not nine times out of ten, like obviously you still need to do your homework. Of course you do.

SPEAKER_01 56:24

But you get a scope of works. Yeah. Mate, I want you to do this. I want you to lodge my stuff on time, I want you to help me with my bloody forecasting uh quarterly. I want you to do this, I want you to do that. How much is it gonna cost? Yeah. Not just, yeah, then they do your tax and they'll only give you a service that's worth sixteen hundred bucks that is like likely to be one phone call to remind you to come in and lodging something with a tax system that pretty much a computer can do.

SPEAKER_03 56:50

I like that you mentioned that it should be regularly as well. Like I really encourage people to like they should be touching base with their can at least every six or eight weeks.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

It's dynamic, right? It's changing every minute. So, you know, you've got a building site. How often does a big gather plan? You put forward a proposal, mate, you come up, what there's clay or there's bloody something or other, or there's a delay, you know, that shit changes. It's just because it's a fixed price contract, so to speak, doesn't necessarily that the circumstances change. There could be things that you could swap. So you know another big one, and this might be a bit controversial. Have one guy come in, you got a direct loan. Oh, I don't take direct loans. Well, you do, mate. So someone's someone's taken something out of you. I said, You've been paying people cash? No? I'm like, so you know all the cash payments you've been withdrawing? How do you think? You're you're thinking you're paying your suppliers and you're not doing any of that stuff and being tricky, but your accountant doesn't know how to apply that, so he's just put it down as alright, that's an unjustified payment, so I'm putting it in there as a director loan. And then that company went tits up, so to speak. And uh the liquidator came in, it wasn't me, it was us. Um, and uh first thing they did was hit him up for the 300 grand. So he's like, man, I don't know about that.

SPEAKER_03 58:12

I thought so I think there'd be a lot of that. There'd be a lot of tradies that still try and deal with cash, but yeah, they can't.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

You get you will get caught out eventually. And you know, there's a lot of this talk about building products gone up, building prices going up because of supply and whatever. You know what's another big reason

Cash Jobs Tax Reality And Risk

SPEAKER_01 58:30

why it's gone up, it's because less people are paying cash. Right? So everything's got to be declared, so stuff is going, you know, and and I think that's often that's something that's changing within the culture of the industry, which is also making it expensive that people don't necessarily raise because you know they're well, that doesn't happen here, mate. It bloody happened, right? It still kind of does happen. Yeah, it's being um uh I guess washed out, but there is a consequence.

SPEAKER_03 58:59

Yeah. So I still hear so many people talking about cash in the industry. I I it'd be it'd be six or eight years since I even got offered cash. Like it's just like no one does it anymore. And and even if they did, like it's it's I'm not interested. Like people, there's this old concept that tax is shit, but like tax is not a dirty word.

SPEAKER_01 59:19

Like, if you're absolutely not, and and but people don't even know why they're paying cash. Like, oh cash, cash, cash cheaper. Why? Do you know why are you taking cash? Tell me what the purpose of you taking cash.

SPEAKER_03 59:33

They've got no idea, they just know it's good. They think they're gonna reduce tax and DST.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

Yeah. I said, you know what's happening? It's the people that pay you cash that then want to get a home loan, but they've got nothing to declare because they haven't made any bloody money. There's no revenue. Well, how do I make myself revenue? Come, mate. Yeah, you know, you you know, don't take the piss, be honest. Yeah, um, so yeah, there's I mean, there's look, we could do it, we could do so many podcasts. We could start with the basic stuff of just being a director, what your obligations are, what you're gonna do, how we can actually help maintain and build growth moving forward, and then in the event that things sort of shit it's a fan, what options you have and how you can move forward. And along those paths, there is someone that can always help you. You know, there's an advisor to this, there's an advisor to that. If you need someone for training on your staff, here's someone. If you need, you know, you want a uh I mean when you get into the nitty-gritty of it about the trades and the people, okay. Well, you can you can use this carpenter and this plumber and this type of thing. Um, but you'll always, we could go through and just high identify each stage, whether it's you, whether it's me, whether it's someone else. I don't care if you come to me and you say, but I'm gonna use this person over here, but I just want to pick your brain. Pick my brain. You know, we're here to help. It's and and and generally speaking, like you're saying, you you've been in the game forever, as a vi. We will know someone that can help, and it's about a solution.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:10

It's just about not being like not being ashamed to put your hand up and ask it, ask the question. Like, no, no question's a silly question, is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:18

Mate, never, and not everyone on the other end wants something for it. I don't want any, I just want you to have a good night's sleep and know that your kids are gonna be okay and you're gonna be able to put food on the table and just go home, have a good sleep, and restart. Like, it's there. Nothing's worth hurting yourself over, mate. It's cash, it's only money.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:39

So, what um just to wrap up on the taxing, like, tax is not a dirty word. Like, I for my advice for all trades and builders that are listening to this, and or anyone that's listening, like you tax is just part of the system. Like, and if the thing that's amazed me, the more successful I become, like, taxes is actually a good thing. Like, if you set your structures upright, if you understand how to play the game, yeah, you actually use it to your benefit.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:03

Oh, 100%, mate. I mean, again, it just coming from being within our society and and living in the beautiful country we have, it's all a result of of tax and being able to fund those type of things as well. But as you say, just understanding tax, it makes you more sophisticated within your business. Yeah, gives you makes you think more outside the square and and what other options you can have. It might ignite some things that you haven't been thinking about before, right? So, are there too many taxes potentially? Are we paid too much? Are we charged too much? That's up for debate as well. But it has to happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:39

Well, it has to, mate. Like the thing with like obviously bigger as people become more successful and and they use better accountants and they understand tax structures more, like the reality is that our governments can't afford to build what we need. And if it wasn't for developers and successful people doing ventures and investing in things, and the government supports them through tax incentives because they need that extra money they're pumping into the economy.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:06

100%. And they only want to deal with legit people too. I don't know if you're finding it, well, I think you are in the game, is that the role of the the let's just say the main contractor, who they're having on site, going through the do you guys have these, what are they called, swims and shit like that, right? Yeah, mate. Yeah. Um, you know, you've got to be able to you've got to look the part as well. So you want to play with the big boys, you've got to be sophisticated. They'll want to have a look at your tax portal, they'll want to see that you're repaying these things. So if you want to get out from doing the smaller jobs and want to get more advanced and doing this stuff, you have to become more sophisticated.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:44

You know, and and and meeting your tax liabilities, having the right procedures and processes in place, having the right reporting, mate, can actually be a big benefit for you in the long run. Definitely, 100%. Yeah, so um, you know, I another thing I probably haven't mentioned before was that I had a bit of a hiatus from insolvency for about three years, and I worked in uh, believe it or not, I worked in Labour Hire.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:11

So uh I'd go around and put guys on job sites, and uh, you know, I learned a lot about that, about the game itself, about the industry, about the type of people and what they're used to. The politics was a big thing, you know, the unions and whatnot. Um and so it was quite uh uh I eye-opening. So, you know, uh do I know the difference between a shovel and a screwdriver? I said this yesterday. I don't, but I've sort of got understanding of what you guys are going through. You know, I'll you'll see me in high-vis and and steel caps from from time to time. So um I have a little bit of experience in that that regard.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:48

But mate, I I don't you're very uh easy to connect with, and I think that's an important thing. Um so what else can people reach

Private Finance With A Real Exit Plan

SPEAKER_03 1:04:56

out to you for? Like we've talked a lot about the restructuring and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:59

The restructuring, the debt finance. Look, another thing that I tend to kind of dabble in is is finance. So I I specialise, I guess, in in non-bank or private finance, right? And I call that distress kind of lending, so to speak. And it the private side has a bad reputation because there are some really bad predatory um operators out there who are focusing on those that are um you know vulnerable. Um, but there's also a lot of good guys out there who who will be happy to work with you and support you. Um and if it is a cash flow, let's say that someone comes up to me and says, mate, I need a I'm I'm I'm screwed. I need to take advantage of an SPR. My creditors are chasing me. I just need to crystallise a debt, get them off my back, put a plan together and stuff. And I'm like, let's have a look at this. Alright, Rhotter. So I got a house over there, yeah, you got that, you got this here. So it's really ending a six month short four years. Got. Yeah, but I can't go to the bank because the tax my tax debts there are being reported to tax agencies, right? And um I mean, but I can you got equity in your house, your personal house, yeah. So I can get your finance, I'll get you the in the neat can't have been to four different home loan bloody brokers right out in the suburbs, and none of them can. I said, But mate, they're going to the wrong people. You know, we're not going through your mainstream type of banks here. We're going to private officers who have private money that be willing perhaps for a slightly higher rate of interest, but they will lend you the money. You'll they'll they'll capitalise the interest so you don't have to pay it back right until the end. And you have a clear exit strategy. Right? You're going to finish this project, you're going to get the money, finish the project, that money's going to be released, you're going to pay back the loan, you're going to pay back your creditors, and you're back on your way. So it's it's about having a plan, isn't it? Mate, the whole thing and and selling your story and believing in yourself. Yeah. 100%.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:57

So and look, again, I'd I keep just throwing myself in the D fan. Like that was me back in the day. Like I I wouldn't have taken that offer because I'm like, oh fuck, I'm not paying them high interest. But like knowing what I know now, like you just you go to someone like yourself, you get a clear plan in place, you and you execute the plan. And if if you have troubles along the way, you reach back out to yourself, you put them back on track, and you you keep working together and collaborating as a team.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

100%. And but if you come to me and you say, mate, I need some money for my business, let's just say that it wasn't an isolated thing. And it you had a history of pulling money out or something, and you just couldn't get any further. Yeah, I'll go, mate, I'm not gonna lend you, I'm not gonna arrange that for you. Because all you're doing is kicking the can down the road. Yeah. You're not addressing the problem. So we're gonna be back here in six months' time, 12 months' time, asking the same bloody question. And guess what? You might not have the level of LVR, right? Yeah. Loan to value ratio, whatever they call it, um, in your property to redo it next time. And guess what? Then you're screwed. And your property's gone. So if if I don't think you've got a clear exit and a nice path or a plan, like you say, I'm not gonna recommend you do that. I recommend you do some form of restructure or negotiation. Yeah. But these are all there there's so many options.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:19

So you said before it's uh it's generally under a million, like you especially is under a million. For SBRs is under a million, yep. Yep. So I I imagine any like there's probably people out there that think they're too small to come to you. Like if they've got a debt of 50 grand, yeah, like is that something that can be structured or well at the end of the day, yeah, it can be.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:42

But the there's the fee, so you need to pay our fee. So how it works is in an SBR is that you will pay an amount up front to the practitioner, i.e. us, um, to um uh do the appointment, to put the plan together, to send it out to creditors. And I just want to I just want to say something. I'm not a licensed liquidator, I work with licensed liquidators. Um I just haven't done my application to to do that. I I assist on the front end and the back end, but I've got my my people in there. I just want to make that known. So when I say we, it means our firm, right? Yeah, and um so you'll pay us a certain amount for doing the plan. And then if the plan is accepted, we will then charge an administration fee for administering the plan, which will go over a particular period of time. Yeah, right, yeah. So that can be anywhere from you know 10 to 15% of the plan value.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:39

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:40

So, um But like you said before, like there that fee is covering your 20 years or your your firm's knowledge and expectations.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:47

Oh, 100%. And and but I'll give you an indication of whether you got a good chance or not. And it's up to you. I last thing I want to do is take your bloody money and give you a wrong bloody um expectation. Yeah, you know, I don't it nothing is guaranteed and no one has a bloody magic wand. Yeah, right. You just give it a good crack. So the 50 grand, yeah, you can do it. I mean, in that instance, if all you need is some time to repay it, you want to repay it over time or do something like that, you could you could do it. Um, you know, but it's just the cost associated is getting sort of close. But if anything, you're just buying yourself time to repay it. Yeah, you know, if if you're at the 50 grand mark, we might have other solutions as opposed to an SBR. Like I deal with a um, it's funny, I uh I I deal with a lot of people who assist in remitting your GIC and interest. Right. So what GI C and interest is, is that general interest charge I was saying before. So someone will go to me, mate, I've got bloody 150 grand owing to the taxpayer. Right? Of that 150 grand of it is um interest. Now I can service the principal, I just can't get on top of the interest and the penalties as well. So if we can get rid of the interest and penalties, then I'll be able to service this this the the tax, the principal tax debt.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:10

So I work with people, there's some really good people out there. Um uh Josie from Gank Jan Minnie from um Tax Debt Solutions is very good. Um there's also uh tax debt manager who is who is very good at uh approaching the tax office, um, looking at your circumstances, giving you a good reasonable indication of what they can do.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:35

And they have a great success rate of telling your story, having a reason why it's happened. It's on one of my other podcasts. Actually, I had a whole podcast with with Josie, and she was brilliant. Um, and uh they might be able to have get that remitted so you can then pay your debt, and you don't need to come to me and do an SBR. Yeah, or you don't need it alone to pay it. Yeah, right. So there's options.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:57

Yeah, no, mate, I'd I think you're just you're adding enormous value to the listeners today. The like is there anything else you wanted to get out there for people in the construction industry to know about?

Accountability And Putting Your Hand Up

SPEAKER_01 1:12:07

Uh yeah, I mean my main thing with the people in construction is is you need to take responsibility, and what I mean by that is is don't just leave it to your accountant and your so-called professionals to manage the formalities. Yeah. You are the director at the end of the day, you're good at chucking up houses and throwing on some bricks, but at least be over the the red tape, so at least you can then provide the advice or have an understanding of what's going on. That's a big thing. The other thing is interact often with your with the with your professional or your accountant or whoever it is, just so that you're on top of it. So, one, take accountability, two, constant um uh interaction. Um three, do not put your head in the sand. Right? Reach out for help. And uh, you know, like for me, mate, just reach out and ask me a question. I'll give your mindest opinion and I'll be able to put your mind at risk. And if it's not working, if there's something not right and you've got a gut feeling it's not right, reach out and do not continue to lend against your house, borrow money off your mates, to throw into your company when you're not changing anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:22

Yep because what's you've really you've kept repeating that message, and I think it's really important. You can't just if if what if if what you're doing now? It's heartbreaking, mate. Yeah, if what you're doing now is not getting you where you want to be, you you've something has to change.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:35

Mate, I had an old fella, 75, wanted to retire, had a business, he wasn't construction, but he had a business, and he just kept refinance and refinance, but in the I think it it was it was like steel fabrication and stuff, right? All that shit's gone to China, Australia's expensive, but he hasn't changed his prices. So he's just in carrying losses and he had his houses over there, he's been working in this business for 50 odd years or 40 odd years. And it came to the point where he he couldn't he actually didn't know he he didn't realise that it was in sh like in shit or had a massive problem until he ran out of money to pay his wages, so it was that that was his trigger, and he couldn't draw down any more money from his team, and that's because he just wouldn't identify the problems and the issues, yeah, and and therefore all the wealth that he has built up over those years has gone, you know, and it's gone because of of a lack of um stewardship and guidance and and and just knowing when to put your hand up and try and yeah to reach

Mental Health Comes First

SPEAKER_01 1:14:40

out for help.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:40

The um so well we'll we'll touch on this as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:43

Mental health speak to mate.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:45

Oh, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:46

Well, our industry is shocking for it. I I don't know, have you done mental health podcasts?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:51

Yeah, we uh so we have um advocates and sponsors of the TX Boys trade, mate on our thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:56

Mate, I'd really love to get involved with them because everyone in our game, mate, is just like they train us to do this, you train us to do that. But mate, I've had guys call me up and say, Look, I uh I've had some gas bottles in my car because I can't pay my tax debt. No one trains us for that. You know, and um we not only would we have to act as advisors and and and experts, we are very much um psychologists or psychiatrists or whatever it is, and counsellors. Um and oh, but you have your obligations to the creditors and you do this, mate. We're not gonna poor fella here, he's worked his guts out, just is being a little ignorant, and he's he's not well, mate. I'm gonna do everything I can to help him.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:41

So no, you're a good bloke. You know, I like it. Look, this this conversation today is definitely gonna help

Turning Your Business Into An Asset

SPEAKER_03 1:15:47

some people out. Look, guys, uh girls, reach out. If you've got questions, um reach out to Marcus and the team at McKay Goodwin. Um we'll put links to your socials and website and all that sort of stuff on here. But um, I'm a big believer, mate, that like my wife and I are creating assets, our businesses are assets. And I I never was taught that my business would become an asset. I'd I I'd never even considered it. Yeah. And so it's again, it's another thing that I really drive home with my members is when you get when you understand all your overheads, when you understand all your costs, when you're when every person in the business is getting paid for their role, including yourself as a company director and owner. Um so you're covering all your costs, you've got systems and processes in place, you're actually creating an asset.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:36

Mate, 100% you are. It's an intellectual property. Yeah, it is you, it is your brand, it is everything. And guess what? It's your biggest asset on that bloody balance sheet. Yeah, you might not see it and not be listed there, but it is. So how does that does that come into play in any of this? Like if you Yeah, yeah, look, it does. I had a guy call me the other day, again, wasn't construction, but construction does relate, and he's just like, company's got no assets, I've just I want to transfer the the business out. Thank you, mate. Legend. And uh You're right, mate. He goes, There's no assets. I go, There's nothing on your balance sheet. I said, What do you mean bloody trading? Oh, the restaurant. I was like, that's your asset. He build it up with the turnover, making money. It's it's if it's making money, it's an asset, mate. Yeah, you know, and you need to, if you're gonna transfer that out, you need to pay consideration for that. Like it's yeah, it's something that's very real and he's underestimated.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:35

I think like a lot of people, like if, and this is another one of those things where if you're still stuck in the mindset that you're just a trader, you're just a builder, you're not a business owner, it's very hard to get your head around this, but like it's so important to set yourself up as a business.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:53

Oh, absolutely, and um like you have to because you otherwise you won't survive, right? Like you have to, it's not just you and your hands and you're throwing it up there, it is you and everything else and others you build, and it's not just you that becomes reliant on your business, it's your employees, but also your clients. Like, you're part of the chain, you're part of the thing, like you you owe it to them as well, right? Like those relationships and and you know, putting the right structures in place, making sure you've got the right advice. I mean, I don't know, do you see any contracts that come in and go, man, how have you signed this thing? Like seriously.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:32

I don't like we have our own contracts that we use, but um look a lot of guys that reach out to me that um when they first come to our our elevate program I thought I was doing shit bad back in the day, but mate, some some blokes have got like it's it's yeah, and I'm pretty blunt.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:51

It's like backward, right? Like it's just like I like first is common sense, put that aside. It's just like how how have you operated A, you didn't know, but how have you got this far?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:02

Yeah, but it's I don't yeah, I'd look I'd love to crack the code on this because I'm it'll it'll improve so many things, mental health, bloody everything the cost of building, everything. But um So I mean what what do you do? You don't know what you don't know. That's right, and you don't know what you're missing if you you know you didn't have experienced it. It's pretty like social media, I think,'s giving us a lot of opportunity because like we're sitting at this podcast right now because I started putting my ugly mug on bloody camera and having an opinion and like same same as me, mate. You're doing the same thing. I'm not saying you've got an ugly mug. No, no, certainly do, mate.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:40

Yeah, this I'm not all painting. I think that's what Tommy wanted to put it out there, is just that like mate, you got a lot of chatting now, you got a you got a lot of strong passion, yeah, and I think people need to know like you owe it to others.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:52

Because I like look growing up, I always wanted to be a builder, but growing up and coming through the industry, like I saw it with my bosses, like they they didn't really have a network of builders, and even when I was a carpenter, like it was it's everyone's in competition, and it shouldn't be like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:09

But we we all need to support each other and help each other out, same as my game. Everyone's like, Oh, that's enough work to go around for everyone. Yeah, we're all mates, yeah. Let's help each other out, yeah. Let's not talk shit about each other, let's not create rumours, yeah, you know, and and and learn off one another's experiences. Yeah, you know, and uh my question as well is like you Q the QECC and you got master builders up here as well, don't you? Yeah, like they should be putting things on too.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:36

So well they do, they do, but like again, and look, I've been in the shit with them before. Like they they do, and they look, I support them, we're members of them, they they do put out some some good stuff. But my problem with them is they don't connect. No, well they can't can they relate? Yeah, well that's the thing. Like you go to one of their functions and it's it's just all this like it just sounds like noise, like because it's done in a way that isn't connecting with the audience.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:02

Well they're not stepping standing in their shoes. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. And I mean, but uh the the the as again, these are people that think you use that with your your teacher, your daughter's teacher, or maybe we cut that out, one of the passes. Yeah, we want to do it that way. But um but um yeah, it's just like but you know, standing the shoes, and and that happens t in all industries, yeah. In in bloody theory it works, in practice it ain't. You know, and um, you know, we're not when I was saying like the QBCC and we have um the master builders and stuff like that. Actually, I'm gonna go back to this, and this might be a bit of a weird comparison, but you know, with footy players, they go and run on the field, they they go in the sheds, knock down a case full of bloody VB and off they go and get themselves in trouble. Where the club's now trying to keep keep them monitoring them and keep them out of trouble and putting them into programs to help them maintain what they've got and build their wealth and push for the future, you know, is that something that we could kind of look at in the construction game? 100% mentorship, put it like, you know, and and like building something you can do forever, like a sport, you got ten years.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:18

Yeah, yeah, you know, so look, another big part of the problem is it's not as we've touched on, like a lot of the people doing the teaching, and and it again I put my hand up, like I I was teaching like young apprentices that I had in my first eight to ten years of business were seeing me like face value, like looked like we're killing it, looked like we're making it some money, but I wasn't giving them any business advice on how to run a business, and if if I was it was wrong, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:47

So you've got to find on the right people. Yeah, people come in, they go, I've got an interview, and I they're taking me off the interview panel, I think. But they sit there and the old mate walks in with you know, you got your suit and I he's got his corpse corporations act out, oh you know, section seven, five, five, six of the act, blah, blah, blah. Listen here, mate. I've got six months to work out whether you know all that stuff. You know, I want to know if you're gonna be able to fit in with the team. I want to know that you want to be here for the right reasons, that you've got a plan and you've got a strategy. Anyone can recite that, you jump on ChatGBT these days and I'll give it for you, you know. So I think recruitment is really important as well. You know, having the right people. Don't just go, I've got to grab this bloke because I'm not gonna get another opportunity. Could be the case. But you might want to hold out and just find the right people and and reward those that work hard for you. Yeah. Don't try, you know, don't be greedy, you recognise their efforts. Yeah, give them all the wit back.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:47

Definitely. The um you got your stat man over there, Tom. Like is there anything, mate, you want us to um You got any in there, Ray Man?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:54

Uh

Why Insolvencies Spiked After Covid

SPEAKER_00 1:23:55

yeah. Uh big one.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:57

Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:58

New South Wales for construction had 2,000 insolvency points for last year.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:07

In 2025. So um 2,000. Tom's just Tom's just spat out a stat that in 2025 New South Wales alone had over 2,000 um insolvencies.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:18

So you want to hear the scariest one? Yeah. So 2021, when my data goes back to in construction, how many insolvency appointments do you think there were there were?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:30

Since 21.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:31

No, in 2021.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:33

Europe? That was the first real year of COVID, wasn't it? Yeah. Uh 6,000?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:39

750.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:40

750? Hang on, but that's when did when did we shut the doors?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:44

2020.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:46

So there was less insolvencies in the first year of COVID. Yeah. So insolvencies have grown since COVID when apparently the economy's going really well.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:57

Yeah. Then 2022 that was 2,200. Then in 2023, 3,300. 2024, 4,500. In 2025, 4,700.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:11

I got one for you from RDPs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:14

That's a good segue onto why that's the same. Yeah, that's what's just better as you.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:18

Do you have a reason why? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:20

The ATO said that they weren't they weren't aggressively collecting that they weren't collecting taxes because they wanted to keep the economy afloat. Yeah, and there was also a lot of code signals being someone. So there was a term being thrown around back in the day. Zombie businesses. This comes from someone out of the ATO. But the zombie business is the businesses that are just kind of doing nothing and they're about to close down. But they're getting 750 bucks every week. And then in order to get uh in order to get like five ten grands. So many dollars.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:33

Yeah, it's a hundred mil.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:36

But only about fifty of it. They're labelling it as able to be collected.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:43

And that's only SME, I'm pretty sure, Tommy.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:46

No total? Now thirty billion of the collectible tax debt is SME. Fifty billion is total.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:52

That's total collectible. Yeah. Hundred bill, they've already written off fifty bill. Or they will write off fifty bill. Yeah. And there's and then there's fifty bill that they don't know about. Well, they know about, they just don't know whether it it's collectible or not. It's scary, mate. So that like those numbers are I don't want to get into all this and scare the shit out of everyone.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:13

That's my Oh mate, go for go. Like this this is uh it's it's stories that like people need to hear the numbers, so they it it might freak them out into taking action.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:23

The thing that a lot of construction business owners that I feel have have is that they think do you want me to get up there by the way? Yeah, come on.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:29

Come on in. Here he comes. That's picking up on his own. Yeah, but come up, come up and champion.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:35

You're right, stand over there. We're getting the stat man up here now. I suggested he do this actually on the way in.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:41

He's been wanting to get me on for for quite a while. So there's been like a few um There's been the federal budget is where they allocate the amount of money being giv been given to the ATO for debt recovery. I'm allowed to say this as well because I don't I don't I don't put stuff out to ASIC like you and ATO like you do.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:00

Back to what we got you up here if you if it didn't pick up before. So from 2021, we've gone from 750 insolvencies a year. Yep. In construction. In construction to 2025 over 4,700. Yep. So in four years.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:14

Yep. And that's a result of, in my opinion, the tax office actually addressing and trying to collect some of the bad debt. Where previously they were letting it go because they just wanted people to survive. But you know what the thing is too, like what I found is that they didn't people weren't paying their tax, but they could have paid their bloody tax. And they didn't, so they wouldn't bought bloody things or wouldn't did stupid things.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:38

No, have a look at all the new American trucks, caravans, camper trailers.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:44

The first thing you got to get is a bloody dirt bike and a bloody jet ski, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:48

I mean when you're a young going back to going back to uh collectible tax debt, last federal budget, the f the ATO was given 500 $500 million to collect all this tax debt. So a lot of business owners out there with taxers are like, oh no, they they it's been six years. They they still haven't come after me. It's like, yeah, they just didn't have the funding to. But now they've increased like they've increased all of their tax debt recovery efforts.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:18

And I'm pretty sure you were saying that they've now they're now outsourcing some of their tax debt um efforts to a lot of people they go, oh, I don't want to deal with the tax office because I've got to sit there for four hours and they'll hang up on me. But mate, that's not like you think they're exaggerating, they're not. It's hard to actually get in touch with them, and then half uh a lot of the people don't actually work for the tax office. They're they're outsourced, they're they're labour higher.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:43

Yeah, they're all they're they're agencies. Like some do send offshore, I think. That's what someone said. But the but whether or not they're outsourced or in Australia, they're not ATO employees. The ATO contracts, uh some sort of organization and their employees who, you know, might or might not be familiar with some of the tax codes and some of the rules and some of the procedures that go into retrieving tax debt, you know, they're just trying to get a job. Yeah. It could be someone that's 22 years old, fresh out fresh out of university.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:12

Yeah, so if you're lucky. Like going off those numbers, it it's and everything that's going on in the in the current climate, it's it sounds like the numbers are gonna get higher before they get better.

Practical Next Steps And Final Wrap

SPEAKER_03 1:30:23

I I think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:24

I think I think we're for a bit of a rough ride.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:27

Yeah. Um unless they listen to this podcast and they're gonna reach out to you and well, it's about just taking a step and getting in front of it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:35

And um I think it's just it's gonna be it's gonna be it's gonna be tough for a little while, mate. And I think personally, I think we're gonna see, you know, obviously everything's going up, what's petrol these days, what's diesel, what's you know, getting around, these things are gonna add up. It's gonna be hard to get supplies. Um, you know, and another another big thing too is people leaving the game. NDIS. Everyone wants to all these builders a builder have gone into bloody NDIS because it's easier work. I don't have to worry about someone disputing my claim or doing anything like that. It's easy money. I register, I get out there, so yeah. Um, yeah, I look uh what what's my personal I I I just think it's it's gonna be a bit of a tough slog. So make sure you've got your stuff, all your ducks line up in a row. So in the event that it kind of does, but it goes different ways. Yeah. That you you've got a a solid foundation, and that is really important when you find that what we're going to plan, you've got something there to refer to, to bounce off, to to to be able to move forward properly. If you've got nothing other than just go to work each day and do that and have a little very basic structure, yeah, you you've you you're gonna be in a bit of trouble.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:55

Yeah. No, mate, look, we'll start to wrap it up. I really appreciate your time. The um I've just done what Shay's been telling me not to do, tell everyone we're wrapping it up, but hang around.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:04

No, no, I think I think this could be one of many, mate, and and um you know, we'll come up with some some kind of other topics and I mean reasons for like what they're doing, what this I think there's so many different things that we can cut down in with construction and business.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:24

Yeah, mate, my biggest takeaway from today is like if if anybody's listening to this podcast and you your cash, your bank account's not building up, your cash isn't what you think it should be, you're you're wondering why you're not making money, then like reach out. Reach out, mate. Yeah. If you're starting to get some notices, if you're finding your tax starting to build up, um if you're on a like if yeah, maybe you're on a tax plan trying to pay your tax off, like don't don't bury your head in the sand.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:49

Like that or if you or if you're um mate, if you can't pay your tax and they've they've defaulted you and it goes on your credit file, mate, get into a payment arrangement or do something. There's always a way, just you know, into um the the more resort the earlier you you you move, the more resources you have and the more options you have. And it's as simple as that. Yeah. And don't sit on your ends. Mate, what's uh what's level up mean to you? Level up means to me, means to when I first thought of level up of a offer, what a brilliant name for like a construction podcast. Got the level in there, you know what I mean. Level up is also mate, shape up, like yeah, dress your like stand up, address your kind of uh concerns and problems and and um and and face stuff head on. That's that's what I I feel to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:41

Awesome. Well, Marcus, really appreciate you coming up and um and Tom. Um yeah, look, I I've got a lot out of it. I'm sure the listener got a lot of it. If you um we'll put all links and stuff to you, but guys, if you need to reach out to Marcus, the guys at McKay Goodwin, yeah, um, and yeah, they'll help you out.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:55

But absolutely 100% anytime, and no sh there is no stupid question. If there's something on your mind, mate, you can go on my LinkedIn, you go on the page, my mobile number is on there. Yeah, and anyone can call me. And if I don't answer, send me a text message, right? And I'll get back to you.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:12

But uh guys, okay, as always, like, share, subscribe, uh, go to the DwaynePierce.com website, get a hold of your merch because yeah, we want to continue to grow this level up movement so that we can create a new building industry. Look forward to seeing you on the next one.