Why 82% Of Australian Home Designs Never Get Built — ft. Scott Bowden - BYO Floor Plan

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82% of Australian home designs never get built.

That's not just wasted money. That's wasted time, wasted energy and wasted dreams.

This week I sat down with Scott Bowden from BYO Floor Plan on the Gold Coast to find out why this keeps happening and what builders, designers and homeowners can do to change it.

We talked about why getting a builder involved early in the design process changes everything, why cheap drawings are costing everyone more in the long run, why detailed drawings are one of the best investments a builder can make in their business, and how Scott's new online tool is helping clients figure out their budget before a single line gets drawn.

If you're a builder, building designer or homeowner thinking about a custom build or renovation this one is a must listen.

Transcript

Why Most Plans Never Get Built

SPEAKER_00 0:00

82% of like drawings that get house to drawings, house designs that put on paper don't get built. Dirty secret of the industry, not just in architecture, but in design in general. You know, the architects and designers, they can get paid in warfare. It's good that that client didn't spend 50 to 100 grand and it would have been too expensive, no screw peers, $150,000 saved. I'm telling you, 90% of the time, if we don't get a job, that project never gets. They've really struggled to attract builders because they've used the cheapest engineer and the cheapest designer and the cheapest survey. And everything is cheap and it's builders can smell it. You know, part of the reason why I went into this is because I love making things. I've always spent my whole life making stuff and I love designing stuff as much as I love making it. But I want to see both. So I want to see the homes and the buildings that we design get made. I want to have the relationships with the builder because I love going out on site, talking to the carpenters, talking to the builder, even talking to the plumbing electrician, all of them. Learning things from them, and I don't get that chance to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

The more money you spend on design, the more drawings you get, the better your job's gonna be. The better I can price it, the better I can manage it, the better outcome you're gonna get.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

So if you use a professional, they're gonna be able to think about it at so much more depth. They're gonna choose all the materials for different reasons, they're gonna be able to get the colours just right. So often the interiors let a project down. They're more than the cherry on the cake. They can contribute significantly more than the architecture itself, actually.

Safety Systems That Prevent Chaos

SPEAKER_02 1:27

As a builder, one of my number one priorities is making sure that my entire team, including my contractors, go home safely every day to their families. I understand that workplace health and safety can sometimes feel like it's just an overwhelming thing that you just don't have the time, you don't have the money, you don't have the resources to put in place. That's why I recommend Hazard Co. Hazard Co. is a digital platform that allows you to run more profitable projects and stay on top of your workplace health and safety requirements. You see, safety isn't a cost. Chaos will always send you an invoice. An unsafe job site is an unprofitable job site. Using digital platforms to drive safer, more profitable jobs is the way of the future. So get on board with Hazard Co. Go to www.hazicco.com and help create a safer job site for your team.

Ordering Gear Without The Admin

SPEAKER_02 2:24

From timber frames and trusses to fasteners and sealants, Brett Online has got the lot. Real trade gear, no weekend warrior stuff. Your own profile page gives everything neat and tidy. Account details, saved job lists, invoices, and all your top-ordered products. No more digging through old paperwork or chasing around old invoices to try and see what you've ordered. It's all there, ready to go. As a builder that's run my own construction business for over 20 years, for 17 of those years I've been using Brett's because Brett's are always putting their customers first to help us deliver more successful and profitable projects. By using their online portal, it means that myself or my supervisor can order gear at the drop of a hat. No more driving across town to place orders or have to pick up the phone and try and get through to the right rep. It's just done and dusted. On top of this, their next day delivery service is an absolute lifesaver when you under-order on framing or one of your team forgets to add a zero. Brett's proudly serviced all of Southeast Queensland and the Wide Bay region right now and are gearing up to roll out across all capital cities very soon. The Brett's way is simple. Less admin, more building, more profitable projects. Brett's online, built for builders who don't have time to muck around, building better and living better.

Welcome And The 82% Problem

SPEAKER_02 3:52

We are back in the studio this afternoon for another cracking episode. Look, before we get too far into this episode, I just want to really thank everybody for your support. The messages and all the people that reach out and ask questions is absolutely awesome and I love it. And I love that it this podcast is helping me create a new building industry, one where everybody in it thrives, we run great businesses, we make profit. But uh not only that, probably the most important thing is that all of our clients get the products and the outcomes that they deserve. Yeah, once again, thanks very much for all the follows and likes and all those sorts of types of things. Make sure you share this podcast around with as many people as you can so we can continue to grow it and make sure you hit the like, subscribe buttons, and all those types of things. But we will get into today's podcast because it's definitely going to be a cracker. Uh, it's been a little while since we've had a building designer on the podcast, and I always love talking about design. I I personally believe that I've become a better builder by understanding more of the building design process. And I know this guy that we've got sitting here with me today is going to add a lot of value because he's doing a lot of things that aren't quite the norm in the industries. I'll give you a little bit of an intro in it. So um so today's guest is Scott Bowden from the Gulf Coast. Um, he's founder of BYO4 Plan. So I'm keen to dive into that and find out a bit more about that. But Scott works with his clients from construction industry, license builders, and serious owner builders. I'm definitely keen to dive into that one because I'm not a fan of the owner builders, but um to develop high-end residential projects from initial ideas right through to stamp plans and building approvals. Um, over the years, he's become very well known for his collaborative approach, which we're definitely going to dive into more of today. And one of Scott's big passions is that he wants more projects to flow through to get constructed. We all know anyone that follows the stats with the building industry. I actually haven't noted, I don't know if this one's been updated for a few years, but it used to be, up until about four or five years ago, it used to be that 82% of build like drawings that get house to drawings, house designs that get put on paper don't get built. So let's dive into it, mate, because I'm keen to see where we go today.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Yeah, thanks for having us, Dwayne. It's um a shocking start and a big one that we want to work at because yeah, everyone wants to build their house, and if it doesn't, people might get paid, but it's not what we want to get get to.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

It's a shocking start, mate. Like to to think that there are like I'd hate to imagine the dollar value on that percentage of drawings because it wouldn't a lot of a lot of them wouldn't just be design drawings, that'd be engineering, certification fees, soil tests.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Like there's a lot of costs involved there. Council approvals, town planning, yeah, and it isn't just the cost in money, it's the cost in time. You know, some of the big projects, one or two years, and you said well, it might have been more at three years people put into these projects. So we work hard to make sure that the best chance of starting.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Yeah. I think the the probably the bigger thing, like yes, cost is a big one and um of all those drawings that aren't getting built, but I really feel for the people that lose interest in building because they the the processes dishearten them so much they end up just walking away and don't build their dream home or renovation and end up buying something.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Yeah, yeah, and that that totally happens. Like we hear it from builders, just the um the amount of effort they put into quoting um to find out that the expectations were way off. Um, so we're working at aligning those expectations better.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Um, and just having that collaborative approach where builders can come in earlier so we all know what we're working towards. And it just it really works.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

Yeah, well, let's take a step right back because it one I always start the podcast off by like, how did where'd you come from? How do you get in the industry? Give people a little bit of a background on yourself so that they understand where you've come from to be able to do what you do now.

From TAFE To Architecture Practice

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Yeah, sure. So I grew up always thinking I was gonna be an architect, just I was just convinced, I loved it. It was either that or an engineer, and I worked out that if I wanted to sort of create things from scratch, that architecture was probably the better avenue, and then you know, grade 12 doing work experience, I was actually horrified at what it was like to work in a big architectural firm, which is different from a small one. And I thought maybe this isn't what I thought, um, but I still really loved architecture as um a discipline and as design. And one of my mentors at the time said, Well, you know what? If you're not 100% sure at the moment, why don't you try building design at TAFE? You can still do architecture later, but it'll teach you the design from a different approach. So finishing school, I got into university, like I got accepted, but I actually deferred that and chose to start building design at TAFE. And I actually loved it. It was super practical. We learned real life stuff like how to measure a house, not just with measuring tapes, but like how to use dumpy levels, how to take running measurements, how to accurately recreate things. We learned about timber framing, bracing. Um, we learned a little bit about design and heaps about drawing, um like technical drawing. We were taught by architects and building designers there. So I finished that and then thinking oh I could possibly start in the bit I could start out with just that, but it wasn't the greatest time in the industry. It was 2008, 2009 by the time I finished. So, you know, 2009 wasn't a great time for building. So spent a year working full-time at Bunnings warehouse, which was actually super useful. I'd worked there the whole time through uni, through TAFE and school anyway. Spent a year learned quite a bit of stuff from you know the ex-tradies that work there, the guys used to build trusses before it was Bunnings, um, under different brands, learned from ex-brickies, ex carpenters. Um but then after a year of doing that, I thought, no, I do want to get back into the design space, I am serious about this, like maybe it's a good time to study again. Um because the industry was still sort of trickling along, it hadn't quite recovered yet from the GFC.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

GFC was pretty shit.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yeah, so that was actually a perfect time to start architecture at uni because the Gold Coast where I lived had just was just announcing they were gonna open two new architecture courses because before that you'd had to go to Brisbane and I lived on the Gold Coast. So ended up getting accepted into Bond Uni, did their bachelor's degree to architecture, and I actually really liked architecture that time around. Um, there was parts that I clashed with, and I was able to get some work paid work experience with a small architectural firm, and I actually really resonated with the smaller um structure of the architectural firms versus the big ones, and then yeah, so that started my architectural journey, and then from there I was able to get employment at a small to medium-sized architect, but yeah, just throughout that process just sort of always resonated a bit more with the practical side. I really liked working with the clients that were from the construction industry as opposed to just the regular mom and dad, mom and dad clients. Um nothing against them, but I just felt it resonated better with different types. And then yeah, it got to a point where it was time to start my own business.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Yeah. So did you you didn't complete all the time to get your because to be an architect, so you've done all the the training, but then you've to be an architect, you've got to correct me if I'm wrong, but you've got to spend is it four to six years or something working in an architect's office?

SPEAKER_00 11:10

So to be an architect and get to be eligible to like apply for registration, you have to do a master's degree on top of your bachelor. So I never did the master's degree, I just always stayed in um professional practice. Um for them to apply for their like registration, they have to have two years experience.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

In in an architectural phone.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Yeah, but that's when you apply for your building designer's license, then you'll have two years as well.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Yeah. So yeah, because there's a like there's obviously a difference between building designers and architects, but like most of the work we do these days is with building designers. Like back in the day, I remember being a when I was an apprentice, like you'd it was either a draftsman, which was not very good, or an architect. Yeah, but I think there seems to be so many incredible building designers out there now. Not nothing gets architect, not saying there's no good architects, but that there seems to be that gap in the middle now has really been taken up well by building design.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Yeah, 100%. So you're right, it it did used to be there was the architects, and then in the architects' offices they had drafts people as like the worker bees, or that hadn't quite got up to being the architect yet, they were producing the work like back in the days of drawing and in 2D CAD, the architect wasn't on the tools as such drawing because they were were doing more high-level work, and then as 3D CAD came about, a lot more people started designing and producing drawings, so they were sort of doing both things, and the Queensland government and the Victorian government recognised that, and they created three levels of building designers. So, in both those states, Queensland and Victoria, there's three levels of building designers. New South Wales sort of has their own system, which is quite convoluted, so I won't go into it. Um in Queensland, so what's the three levels of building design? I didn't know this, I wasn't aware of that. Yeah, it's the same, so both states are basically the same. Basically, you've got um low rise, which is building houses, building townhouses that are side by side, um, and then small sort of office buildings and various sort of other things, and then the medium level rise, the medium rise building designers, which is probably the most common building designer that has their own own business, would be a medium. Yeah, they can design small apartment buildings, so you're stacking different families on top of each other, so you've got different fire codes, uh, different con types of construction, and then they can also do some sorts of commercial buildings, and then the open class, like open building. Similar to like our building lights are museum. It's all with the QBCC. So they've tried to make it as logical as possible. Yeah, so your open class can do you know high-rises, casinos, libraries, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Yeah, yeah, awesome.

Taking The Leap Into Business

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Obviously, you took the part and you started you went out on your own. Like, what's that been like, mate?

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Yeah, it's been great. Like, I always wanted to do it, it was just a question of when. And about six years ago, I started getting serious thinking about it planning it. And it was pretty much about five and a half years ago that I took the plunge. And yeah, like it it was pretty scary to leave the the salary. Um, but I had some contacts who multiple people where I thought, you know, if I have these amount of people, I can do some freelance work. I'd managed to get my build and designer's licence, so it was all official from a legal standpoint. It was just a matter of how much work could I get. Like, I had like a year's worth of savings um to get myself through, so you're not you don't have to take on every single job, you do have some money in the bank. And yeah, so after like three months, I'd sort of gone through the list of calling all the engineers and builders on you, about a third of the way through, and by that point the phone just started ringing back, hey, we spoke the other day. Do you reckon you'd be able to help out with this? And before you knew it, you know, that was this was during the time of COVID. So before you knew it, the government was giving out people, giving people money, people that knew me were calling me, I was getting referrals, and then sort of like a year and a half in, it was just all on, you know, it was great.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

Yeah, it's awesome. So it it's inspiring to see like so you've been in business six years, like you're only a young fella. Like to like it really, it's inspiring for me to see someone that's only been in the industry not a long time putting so much effort into caring about jobs getting built, and I guess developing systems and processes

A Fast Budget Check Before Design

SPEAKER_02 15:12

around that. I don't know if like I thought it'd come in further down through the through this podcast, but like you've sent me a link in the only in the last couple of days that I've had a play around with, and you have a service where people can get an estimate on their budget and see if their budget's aligning with what they want to do. Can we dive into that a little bit? Yeah, sure. So this is like hot off the press.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Well, are we not meant to be talking about this? No, no, no, it's it's it's working. It's probably like we're trialing it because it does it does cost us to host the service, but I really believe in it, so I want to give it a red hot crack. So essentially, about two and a half years ago, it was Christmas holidays, and I came across this online tool called Before You Build, I just found it on Facebook, and they were claiming that you could get a quote or like an estimate before even having a design. And you know, at the time, the way you would figure out how much a design was gonna cost before you had started designing, so for example, when you meet a client, you're trying to get a figure of how much it's gonna cost, you'd use square meter rates, and you might say it's X amount across the whole house, or you could try and get really cute and have an Excel spreadsheet and say, Oh, the living area is this much, the bathrooms are this much, the kitchen's this much, the garage is this much, and the decks that much, and you try and be like super precise, but at the end of the day, you're just plucking numbers out of thin air. Yeah. So I was like, well, we're gonna give this thing a go, like, or how bad could it be? And it actually turned out to be amazing. So I started putting in all my current projects um into Before You Build, and that's the back end of this system we now have on our website. And essentially, you're not telling it how big the house is, you're telling it what the house includes. So you're saying we've got a master bedroom, we've got an en suite, we've got a walk-in rope, we've got this many other bedrooms, we've got uh fireplace, we've got this many skylights, and essentially you're creating like a shopping list of what the house is made from from the homeowner's per perspective. Yeah. So it really is dialed back to be super simple for the homeowner or the client, for example. And then, you know, to get it more accurate, each of those rooms has like small, medium, and large, and then if it's a bathroom, it's like is it a budget, mid-range, luxury, or architectural? Yeah. And then there's like essentially it's the way I describe it to clients, it's essentially like getting an online quote for your home insurance. You know, it takes you like five or ten minutes, you you fill out a bunch of data points, you hit go, enter, and you get this readout with a whole bunch of individual line items and then a bottom line, and basically all the individual line items kind of average out because it is just sort of guessing, but the number you get at the bottom, we've found to be usually within 10%.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Yeah, no, it's not a lot of different things. What do you find? Yeah, look, I was I only um I only did it once, but I was quite surprised at the the final number that it spat out, and uh I with even with all my experience, like I thought it was it was doable. Like there's no reason I couldn't build what I put in for what it came back. Yeah. The one thing I was a little bit surprised, like it there was no questions around like roof type or facade or any of that type of stuff, which obviously can change the cost dramatically, yeah. But I guess that just comes down to the conversations that you're having with potential clients once they've possibly filled that out and and made filtered their way through to you.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Yeah, so exactly. So, you know, we have the back-end system where I can do unlimited iterations of the project in the software. So what I'll tend to do is I'll do multiple iterations of it, and there is like a master level input at the front, which is budget, mid-range, luxury architectural. So, what the best way to do it for us is we'll generate three. Have all the rooms the same, all like you know, timber floorboards, carpet, all that's the same, but three master commands are different, and that gives us three different bottom lines.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Yeah, and that's always a that is a really good, I guess, in-your-face like look at for the clients to see. Well, look, if you go bottom of the range, mid-range and high range, like this is how much it can vary. And again, it's still going to change once you get final selections and things. Yeah, totally. For them to be able to see visually that just by those three clicks of a button, the job could vary from 1.1 to 1.4 to 1.8. Like, yeah. Yeah, I I look, I think you're on to something, mate. I I think it's it's a starting point. It's a conversation start.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

It is, it's just it's just the start, you know. So if the clients can think, yeah, let's say the range is like 1.2 to 1.5, if they're comfortable with investing that much, great. If they're not, we need to figure out what we're gonna reduce to get it back to where they want. And if they were thinking about spending more than that, great. We'd yeah, we've got the option to use some nice quality products and do nice things with the geometry.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

So where where's the passion come from, mate?

Designers Get Paid Even If It Dies

SPEAKER_02 20:04

To like how did you learn that there were so many drawings that weren't getting built?

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Well I think it's always it was like the dirty secret of the of the of the industry, um, not just in architecture but in design in general, is that um you know the architects and designers they can get paid and walk away. They could have done exactly everything to the client's satisfaction, but then the project is like 40 or 50% over budget or something, or maybe double, and it's it's not savable when it's that far over. And you know, part of the reason why I went into this is because I loved making things, like I my poor wife with all the construction stuff at home, but like I've always spent my whole life making stuff, and I love designing stuff as much as I love making it, but I want to see both, so I want to see the homes and the buildings that we design get made. Um, I want to have the relationships with the builder because I love going out on site, talking to the carpenters, talking to the builder, even talking to the plumber electrician, all of them little learning things from them, and I don't get that chance to do that if the building project dies.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Yeah, I just feel like it should be part of the training, mate. I've mentioned this in a few podcasts recently. Like we did an open site on one of our projects um earlier in the year, and it absolutely blew my mind how many um design and architectural students turned up. Um there's actually there was actually more architect and design students showed up than there was builders. And they I was I was like, What why are you guys here? And they're like, Oh, we we follow everything you do on Instagram, like we don't get this training in in uh uni. And I'm like, But you're drawing it, like how can you not be taught this if you're drawing it? Like, and one of the big things that they were pointing out was like understanding like they didn't know what to include in section drawings and detailed drawings because they didn't understand how the flashings were working around windows and like now we do the cavity button systems, like how's that how does that What's the flowing effect?

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

How do we need to change our drawings? What do we need to update? What do we need to include? Yeah, it blows my mind that to be able to draw a building, you don't have to have any sort of practical experience.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Yeah, well, see, at university in The Bachelor, for example, you get taught how to think about buildings and how to think about designing them and how to develop a design, but you're not taught how to deliver on that design. Like that's what you learn in professional practice, how to actually create a building that can be built. So you really, until you're actually working in the industry, you're not delivering the projects. And then at TAFE, they're talking they're teaching you how to understand conventional buildings and how to draw conventional buildings. So that's why I was really happy to do both the qualifications because you sort of blend them together. There's a lot more theory and then business stuff in the master's degree, which is great for people that have done that. But yeah, essentially, you hit the like your first job, you kind of realize you know nothing compared to the people that have been doing it for 10 years. Because every building is a little bit different, and there's so many nuances to every project, and it's not until you've like worked for two or three years you start to see the patterns occurring. And so you have this building similar to that one, and have this building is totally different, but it's somehow been similar to something else. So, yeah, your education, it just goes forever. Like the architects that are 16, 70 years old, like the wisdom that they would have, I would just love to download that. Um, same as the builders that are retiring, like the wisdom um and knowledge they have, you just want to be able to

Ventilated Battens For Healthier Homes

SPEAKER_00 23:32

pinch it.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Alright, guys, I want to introduce you to a really exciting new product that I believe is going to play a massive role in Australia building healthier homes. As you all know, I am extremely passionate about healthy homes and I'm doing a lot of research and putting a lot of time and effort into making sure my construction business is leading the way when it comes to building healthy homes here in Australia. We've teamed up with the guys from Highwood Timber. Highwood Timber are pioneering condensation management with their high flow ventilated LVL baton system. High flow battons give builders a stronger, straighter, and smarter way to create a ventilated cavity behind cladding and underneath roofs without compromising on structural performance. While tackling condensation to improve building health and ease of insulation, highwood battons are built to perform. When it comes to dealing with condensation and ventilation, high flow battons will help you create continuous ventilated cavities behind all your cladding and underneath your roof sheeting. They reduce condensation risk and support healthier, longer lasting buildings. Highwood timber battons are also in alignment with the proposed NCC condensation management requirements as well as passive house ventilation requirements. Being an engineered LVL product, they are stronger, straighter, and more dimensionally stable than a solid material such as pine. This helps resist warping, twisting, and shrinkage, ensuring more consistent installs less prone to splitting than solid timber. Howwood timber battens are precisely manufactured, meaning that your installation will be faster and easier than other products on the market. The part that I like the most about these batons are they are H3 treated for long-term protection against decay and turmoiles. They use a waterborne H3 treatment which reduces reactivity with membranes and adhesives when compared to LOSP. These are the exact battens that you want to be using on your homes and your builds if you are considering building healthier homes or passive homes. Check them out. Highwood Timber Products. We need to somehow be getting more of. Like I don't know, like whether we need to be holding seminars where some of these older people in the industry come and speak and like I guess do whether it's doing drawings or discussing what they've learned over the years. But I feel I feel there's a massive, massive problem in the industry at the moment where that old school knowledge across the board doesn't matter whether it's design, whether it's building, whether it's plumbing, electrical, yeah, bricklaying, like plastering, like there's just so many old little tricks that we need to know, yeah, that are just getting lost.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Yeah, yeah, totally. And you know, I love it when I meet someone that's a senior that's from the building or the the architectural design industry, because I'll just pick their brains because it's a huge generation that, as everyone knows, that the the generation that's exiting the the workforce. You know, I was lucky enough to work for someone, it wasn't quite at that age, but they gave me lots of little master classes, like my first my proper architecture boss where I worked for seven years, just so much valuable information, and then his um associates learning from them, yeah. It's just you're constantly learning in our industry, like you never feel like you know everything because as soon as you do the building codes will change or whatever, but it keeps keeps it on your it keeps you on your toes and it keeps it exciting, I guess.

A Client Process Built On Commitment

SPEAKER_02 27:00

So if someone and you could say a new client gets in contact with you, like what's the process that you take them through to that you believe works to get their building built?

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Yeah, sure. So starts off most people inquire through the website, or if they send me a text, I'll direct them to a survey. The the website takes you through the survey. So essentially I get there's about 12 or 15 questions there, which helps me understand what's important to them, a few key things like the property address and um how much they're hopefully looking to spend. And then with that data, I'll have a look at that, and then I'll usually call everyone, even if I don't think it's gonna be going. If it's a really not a good fit, I'll just recommend them a couple of people. But I usually try and call um everyone else and just have a good like 15-20 minute chat. And if I feel resonating and the project's gonna have legs, the the first official step is to have a consultation either at the site or where they're currently living, and that's usually like a one and a half hour chat, and it's just learning about what's important to them. Towards the end of that, I'll explain the services that we offer that are relevant to them and give them a quote. So that's a paid service. Um so I believe in what you're saying about the builders respecting their time as well. Because for us to do that for free, we can't really make it a priority. Whereas if we can get a little bit of money for it, we know they're invested, we're invested. If we say 3 p.m., we're there at 3 p.m., yeah, you know, that sort of thing, we'll research the property first. I'll spend way more time preparing for that consultation and after that consultation than what we charge. Yeah, but it just it's an alignment of commitment. Yeah, so yeah, and then after that, we usually design two two concepts. So I don't know how much you want to talk about it, so it's but essentially it's as much as you're willing to give away, mate. Yeah, so I guess like the people people might wonder, your audience might wonder why is it called build o floor plan? So it could be like bring your own floor plan or it could be build your own floor plan. Um but a lot of the people they do have some some ideas in mind. And these days we're more about is building your own floor plan, whether you're a builder hoping to get the client's floor plan built, or you want to do it for yourself, you want to build your own dream. Um, so our of our two concept options that we do, the first one is a professional development of what you've shared with us. So if you if you're pretty smitten with it, um that's awesome. We will review that, we will really do a deep dive into why you've drawn everything the way it is, and then we'll professionally present it with all the bits you probably couldn't do by hand or whatever. We'll optimize the window placements and cabinetry and stuff, and then the second one is some people are nervous about us providing the second one, but we we really do recommend it. And what what it is is we totally step back from the the floor plan you've provided. We look at all their notes from the consultation, we look at your floor plan, and okay, what are the ingredients that are really important to this client? And then we'll get I'll go on a walk or something, maybe it's a whole another day, and I'll come back and I'll reassemble their design brief, so everything that's important to them, cross-referencing it with all the homes I've done before, all the little learnings and tips I've got from people. I put that into their project, and then we'll have a meeting and we'll present the both. And you know, that it's I always I love presenting them. Um, you get used to it at Unions presenting your designs, it's pretty nerve-wracking at the start. But essentially, the first one's great because their eyes light up because they're seeing all of their ideas like come to fruition, all the things they couldn't quite get to work on their floor plan are now working, and they're like, Oh, this is great, and like you feel good because you've solved or maybe there's a few things you want to tweak, but essentially they're like 95% happy, and then you get to the second one, and they just like they're just shocked, but in a good way, and you you're talking about how okay, you know, we we saw the way you did the kitchen, the butler's pantry, we've actually put it over here because then the kitchen flows with the dining room and living, and it connects through to your deck, and from that end you actually get the view here, and then you know, we'll change the way the guest bedroom was arranged, things like that. And maybe they had like a carport and stuff on one side of the project because that's where the old garage was. We've actually totally repositioned it at this side, and now the whole entrance to the house is opened up, um, and just the presence from the streets totally different, it doesn't look cramped anymore. And people are just like, This is amazing, like this is like everything we want, but it's mixed up in a good way.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

We never would have thought of this, and um it's an amazing exercise to do because I until like again back in the day when we had a ship process and we'd just get we're tendering jobs, and we just whatever we got given, we just built. But um, now we do the pack process. I'm heavily involved in the um design process, go to meetings and things, seeing how good architects designers work and and and do those two sorts of concepts, and and it like I've seen it in real life for Camille and like my wife and I when we do our own projects, and I think one of the biggest differences I've seen is like it's all good, like even as a builder, like I scribble shit down all the time, and like in my head, I'm thinking this is awesome, like this is just what I want. But you guys then take it and obviously take orientation into account and natural lighting into account, and safeties and overhangs and window placement, and as you just mentioned, like the workflow and like moving from one from your kitchen to your dining to your entertaining, like and yeah, I I I do I enjoy those meetings as well because you do see the clients light up because yeah, they're like, Oh shit, I didn't even consider that.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Yeah, and like it's totally not about trying to prove that like we're better than them or anything, it's about just trying to get the best version of of their ideas. Um, and 90% of the time they go with with our design. We might end up shifting something a bit, but most people actually abandon their floor plan. And I think sometimes for them it's hard to do it because they were really happy with it. And the one that we developed in its own ROP is totally fine. It's just that because we were able to take the best ingredients and reassemble it with fresh eyes professionally, that it's like, you know what, we've paid Scott to do this, let's just run with this. Like, this is awesome.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

It's funny you call it ingredients because I was um Camille and I have got a another project for ourselves that we're working on at the moment, it's just early stages

Two Concepts That Change Everything

SPEAKER_02 33:24

of design. And I was talking with the actor yesterday and he was he was saying, Oh, look, we're trying to get all the ingredients in that you wanted, but if we don't put them in the correct order, it won't rise. And I was like, mate, that just makes complete sense. Like it's no different to baking a cake. If you miss an ingredient out or you don't put them in the right order, then you're gonna end up with a shitty cake.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Yeah, and I totally enjoy cooking and I often use um food analogies with people if I know they like like cooking, because there is similarities in that creative and the ingredients and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

But it just makes sense. Yeah. But when you use those analogies, like it it makes 100%. This is one of those things that you you don't know what you don't know. Like people that don't understand design or they've never been involved in the pre-construction stage and and had different examples. A good example of this, and I'm definitely not well, I probably am bagging project volume builders out a little bit. Like you walk in, and I have not done this for a very long time, but um, like you walk into a Disway village, and like you walk in the house, and like so many times uh there's just these little narrow hallways, and it's very dark, there's not a lot of natural light coming in, and yeah, um that I I feel like that is a one of the biggest differences between a volume-built house and a custom design house. So a volume-built house you might have a dozen floor plans to choose from, and you just pick it up and you go and stick it on your block of land. Yeah, whereas you guys are everything is individual, like you have assessed the block of land, you've assessed the neighbouring properties, the access, and everything is designed to suit that site.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Yeah, like totally. The example I use, it's not a food analogy, but the example I use with clients when we're talking about the floor plan, is we're not playing a game of Tetris where it's like how can we fit the walk-in robe in with the ensuite and in with the bedroom. It's it's not about that at all. Like, if you're trying to optimize for the most simple foundation light in the world, it kind of can be. But generally speaking, it's about trying to optimise for all those other things you talked about, like the orientation, the aspect, the views, and the flow between rooms and the experiences that you get. And that's the high-level thinking. You're also thinking in 3D as well, how is this going to work? What are the ceiling lines doing? Is the roof consistent? Or are we actually changing the building geometry at this point? So, yeah, there is way more that we take in. And you know, when we're doing that preliminary research in the early design phase with the property, like we don't just go there and walk around and think this is great, take a couple photos. Like, we're actually looking okay, where's the neighbour's utilities that don't look great? Where's their clothesline? Where are their windows that are going to be an issue about like at night time when they look across? We don't want to have to always shut a curtain. We want our windows to be like in different spots. So we'll actually get the surveyors to survey the neighboring windows on the second story. If the project has views, we'll get them to survey roof lines and stuff so we know where our balcony needs to be so that we can see around their building and down the canal, things like that. One project we did, it was all about the view from Palm Beach back at Burley Headland, which is the gold south end of the Gold Coast, looking at one of the beautiful national parks. And that house now from the mezzanine level, there's this panoramic window that just perfectly frames that national park. And it's just like when the the carpenters and builders and tilers arrange a shower niche, it doesn't all just come together magically, like there's a lot of effort and time and like chit-chat to make sure all that lines up in the shower. That's what it's like with getting the view lines and the aspect natural light together. And um, we love it when people are prepared to invest in a design service so we can do that. Yeah, it's unreal.

Bringing Builders In Before It’s Late

SPEAKER_02 37:14

And so, how are you how are you handling the uh the project spend side of things? Like, are you are you heavily involved with builders? Like, are you getting feedback on the cost of construction and what like what at what point are you getting involved with builders?

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Okay, so we sort of have two, there's three types, three project formats that we do. We'll start with a simple one where a regular client comes to us and says, I want to design a house, I want to build a house, they don't have a builder. So, what what would you call a regular client? Um, maybe they're a carpenter, or maybe they're a small business owner and they want to build themselves like a one and a half to four million dollar home, or maybe they want to do a like a substantial renovation to their home. So at that point, we'll do design work maybe like up to a third of the design process. So still plenty left, and then we'll start, we'll be at the point, okay, we've done our before our before you build like feasibility estimate. Now what we can do is we can either pay for a quantity surveyor, not a building estimator, a quantity surveyor to do like a preliminary estimate, someone like um before you plan who price plan, price plan, sorry. Yeah, um, someone like that, I've reached out to him and we can pay for that or we can bring on a builder from our network to try and work with us to figure out what is a budget for this project. Not not how much does the design cost, but what is an amount of money, what's a range that we should try and work towards. Um so we've got builders that we can draw on for that, and then if they mesh with that builder, we try and keep them on. There's a lot of clients that and people that think why don't we just finish the design to 100% or three quarters and then just go and get quotes. And that's just it kind of is a recipe for disaster if you've had if you've totally operated in a bubble. That can work if you're paying your quantity surveyor along the way for expert guidance. But if you are totally operating in a bubble, you kind of you're not really sure of market conditions, you're not sure about the practical things, like if it's a big job, where's the crane gonna park? What sort of retaining walls do we have to build? How much, like if it's rural, like what sort of like utilities do we have to set up? Is the driveway gonna cost us a hundred grand?

SPEAKER_02 39:37

I think that's a part that a lot of c people overlook. Like the yeah, like having a builder involved adds a whole other level of expertise that like efficiencies, site access, like as you as you pointed out, services, like yeah, because some of that stuff, if you if you haven't thought about that during the design, not only can it cost a shitload of money that you may not have been aware of, but like back in the day when we were tendering, like there was there was lots of times where literally within the first month on site, the design would have to change because someone hadn't thought about a build-over sewer or or um an outdoor entertaining area and where the manhole was, like all these things because no one had gone to site and like we've got a checklist that we go to site and we work through and we we then pass on that information to the building designers and let them know what we found when we've done our investigation so that they that can be worked on site. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

And like as scary as it is, sometimes you actually find out early that you totally need to change your plan of attack. Like, there was a project that we went to quote recently. I know there was a repeat client, and he actually wanted to do a meeting where it was him, myself, and a builder all day one before anyone's like commissioned on the job. And he had a really challenging site, like it was super steep. Um, the street was this tiny little like loop road off a hilly street, like it wasn't even like a proper street, it was kind of like the sort of thing kids the kind of thing kids are playing because there's no cars driving through there. There's only like three houses on it, yeah, and there was overhead power lines, and there was bush, there was a bushfire threat, and there was a stormwater going down there, and a sewer going across here. It was like hectic, like it was a shocker, but the views were gonna be amazing, so it's like worthwhile investigating. And having the builder there, we were able to have so many like fundamental practical conversations, and it was pretty much identified that if we were gonna build this house, we needed to build the front house, the front of the house strong enough for a crane to park on top of so we could build the rest of the house. And in the end, that was probably a big part of why the client didn't go ahead with that whole project. Um, and it's a bit sad that project didn't go ahead, but it's good that that client didn't spend like 50 to 100 grand and all the things would have been been included to design this full-on custom luxury house that would have been too expensive or impossible to build because there's nowhere to park the crane, there's nowhere for a delivery truck to charge to to drop off their stuff. So it's amazingly valuable the stuff that builders can contribute to the start of the design process too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

I had uh I actually had a preliminary meeting this morning with a project that the client wants to do a big refurb on a on a house and it's down the end of a laneway. I it was funny because I was literally 20 minutes away from the meeting this morning, and he sent me a text because it's got garage down on the lower street, and then it's got access on a street above because it's a steep site. And I've always just gone. The other couple of meetings we've had, I've gone to the bottom street, but he's texting me this morning and said, Oh, um, we'll be meeting up the front, come to such and such, um, reverse down because it's it's hard to back out. Yeah. And so I've got there, like it was still dark this morning at 6 30, and back down, and like as I'm backing down, I'm thinking, how are we going to get deliveries here? Like, well, I haven't even got the job yet. The designs aren't even done. But and so that was a big part of our conversation this morning. Like, and the works they want to do to this refurb will involve a crane, and like like there's literally like five driveways coming into the end of this laneway. So I'm like, we're gonna need traffic control, we're gonna have to coordinate all the neighbours, like yeah, there's a and like there's a lot of it might not sound like it, but there's a lot of cost in that, yeah, yeah. And um, this this guy's like, oh shivers, I I just drive my garage every day, like I've never even thought about that. And I'm like, well, yeah, do you know some of the track like some of the stuff you're talking about doing here? We're gonna need a semi trailer. Like, we put a semi trailer on this laneway, it's basically blocking nine of your neighbours. Like, how you know who's gonna go with that? Oh, yeah, no, I I don't get on with three of them. Like, yeah, so it starts all these conversations, but that's the sort of stuff that people that don't build a team. to have a pre-construction process miss out on.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Yeah, totally. And like it's just mission critical for access. So you know you might you might be thinking, okay, I've got a I've got a raised house and there's a whole section under my house I could do like a build-in under. I'd do like a granny flower rumpus room or something in under there and you plug it into ChatGPT, how much it's going to cost. You kind of have to almost ignore all that because ChatGPT doesn't know that everything's going to have to be manually carried down the side of your house and there's going to be all these costs that have nothing to do with regular building costs. It's all about just access and job management. And that's why whenever the job is a bit challenging we would just try and get either an engineer or a builder out straight away so we know the mission critical stuff.

Access And Soil Tests Save Fortunes

SPEAKER_00 44:46

And then another example is we do a lot of canal homes on the Gold Coast or river homes and they're sort of notorious for having soil that isn't great for foundations. So the the cost effective approach in terms of spending money less up front is to just go and get yourself like a five or six hundred dollar soil test. Or maybe you spend a little bit more and maybe spend like a $1,100 on a geotech. But we'll actually use a specific geotech that has a really good reputation on the Gold Coast that has a longer equipment and they just they know what they're doing and the times we've used them we've actually been able to avoid screw peers which for example might cost like 100 or 150 grand extra on a job. So there's a job that we had where the block of land was bought with a design with a soil test with a geotechnical report actually and we totally that whole design was scrapped we had a brand new design but the client could have totally legally used the geotech report. But the engineer said we're going to have to have screw peers. So we commissioned our geotechnical consultant go out no screw peers $150,000 saved which we can then put into the the nice things of the house or save the money.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

So having the right team to do those checks first is just the right experience like the right team right experience the right knowledge. Yeah you've you've got to whatever build you're thinking about building like you've got to have you've got to create a team that has done that work before yeah or got some some form of experience in doing that work. Yeah it blows my mind like you see some and we've we've had this in the in just in the last couple of years like we've uh big crossover timber like CLT home that we've spent years working with the clients to develop it and to price it and to get it to a point where everything was ready to go but they were just anxious too anxious to get it started and and we like we would we were going to be another three or four months before it fit into our schedule. I find this so hard to believe but they they literally ended up giving the job to the it's it was in a rural location but literally ended up giving the job to a a steel shed builder.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Oh to build the the new alternative construction method.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

Yeah yeah yeah and I look I I never like it is what it is clients choose to do things like that and yeah it's funny actually we're going out on the weekend so near where this house has been getting built and I'm going to go and drive past and have a look at it but I know that uh a shed builder would not have been able to do the job the way that we could have done the job but yeah for people that haven't built a lot before or don't have the experience like it's I I guess it is hard for them sometimes to understand the difference.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Because a lot of people just think building's building yeah yeah or design's design like yeah it's like you know going back to the food analogy one I sometimes use is you can go to the supermarket and buy yourself a frozen lasagna for like 12 bucks feed the whole family maybe even add a side salad and crack a glass of Shiraz and you got yourself a meal right well you can spend a bit more and you get like a $22 lasagna or whatever and it's like noticeably different. But like it's it's still nothing compared to going to your mum's house and she makes you like a crack and lasagna and it's like that thick and you know there's so much cheese in there and it's the good cheese and like the nice meat and like the tomato sauce has been like simmering for like four hours. Yeah like that's you can't get that for twelve dollars at the supermarket. Yeah um I like it. And that's what custom building is it's not a lasagna it's it's the love it's the time it's the craftsmanship.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

Well it almost is like a custom built home is a lot more layers than a volume home. Yeah exactly mate I love your passion and I I think it's even more um I don't know it's more exciting how young you are. So you you reached like we've never met until today like you reached out I think to me on Instagram because you listened to the podcast and I think when I first message you back and said oh well why don't like you're passionate why don't you come on the podcast and have a talk to you and I think you said to me oh I don't think I got like what am I going to offer like I don't know if I'll add value I think you're adding heaps of value. And I think if you keep doing what you're doing it's um yeah you're going to have a long and healthy healthy career in the industry. Like it's the industry needs passionate people. And it also needs people that are I guess open to doing things different ways and open to uh reflecting on how things have been done in the past and how and what hasn't worked and how can we do that better and I from what I see you're definitely doing a good job of that.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

Yeah thanks like I've had I've been lucky enough to have a lot of amazing teachers and and mentors. There's some people that start early in that because you leak you can legally start earlier than that. But I think at a certain point you just got to back yourself and I think the key is like you can't know everything. I certainly don't know everything and I don't pretend to but you if you have a network of people that you can trust that that do have the experience across the whole network you can always find the answer.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Um yeah and I'm lucky that I've got engineers um builders and a whole range of professional consultants whether it's a bushwire consultant or a performance solution consultant um that we can figure out what we need to do to fill in those

Build Your Circle Of Specialists

SPEAKER_00 50:11

gaps. Yeah so what what's your specialty mate like on your Instagram like you you do some pretty cool stuff like have you got a one that you sort of like prefer more like I guess like my preference like if I could just invent a client they'd be building like a suspended slab home whether it's on the um river or the water or in the hinterland I love doing both what do you what do you think it is about concrete like everyone's doing off form and suspended concrete yeah I think it's just like it's just the feeling underfoot just how sturdy and stable it is you know so much work goes into the preparation and you're building something that's just going to last essentially for forever or that part of the building will last for forever. And there's a lot more technical work that goes into it. We do a lot more coordination with the engineer you've got all the different layers of building up the walls with the batteries and everything like we're doing one at the moment that's um using DIN cell which is like the PVC permanent form work and we're using DIN cell for the basement and the main level and there's three concrete slabs that's a huge job that's keeping us busy. But yeah there's just really a lot you can put into it and you're sort of drawing on the experience and you know designing apartments in the past all the the bits about timber frame homes as well because you're still using timber frame but yeah just the quality of build you get just how stable it is it's it's amazing. No one ever it's always like a big expense like you see the quote and you're like well that's how much extra it is to do a suspended slab versus lightweight. But then when the clients walk out there on it in the construction site and they stamp their feet they're like yeah this is the right call.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

Yeah yeah obviously you can get a lot bigger openings and cantilevers but yeah I um look I do see a lot of good things happening in that space I'm I'm not a I I love concrete I love what you can do with I love the cantilevers in the big spaces I do uh I am very conscious of just how bad it is for the environment with all everything that goes into Megan it's it's good to see there's a few um uh there's a few people especially down in Melbourne now that are working towards the green concrete yeah using recycled plastics and things to to make it I'm really keen to see where they where they end up with that. Yeah yeah have you seen those guys like I think Os Oscar and like I know um one of the mentors that we've um had do some stuff with LiveLife build um Michael Mojo like I know he's an investor in that so yeah I'm really keen to see where that goes because yeah like I said I like what you can do with concrete I just I think we need to come up with a better way of do of actually making the concrete yeah I think there's concretes out there that are better for the environment that have more recycled materials maybe they just take a little bit longer to to cure um and also the house doesn't have to be huge too like you could just invest in the quality of it and if you design it in a way where the winter sunlight is actually landing on the concrete slab through the windows it can sort of like warm up in a good way and then it's summer you just have to make sure that the the sunlight's not warming up the floor because that's too much.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

So yeah there's definitely the play the times and places to use it. But yeah just the the spans you and you can be very selective like there was one project we did where we considered just using it at the back of the house to get like an eight and a half meter opening that you just couldn't have got with like LVLs and Lamb beams and stuff.

Concrete Slabs And Smarter Sustainability

SPEAKER_02 53:39

Yeah. So what what's some issues mate you've seen like I will actually well this will be a two part question like one with business one with clients but what's some common issues or mistakes that you um I guess you get from client side of things?

SPEAKER_00 53:53

I guess the biggest one is um the jobs that we don't get is the people that think we're charging an astronomical amount of money because they've heard that you can get a design for 10,000 bucks or 5,000 bucks or something. And like we're the first to port a call usually if they haven't spoken to a builder we're the first person that's going to give them a quote and let's say they manage to find someone to design their multi-million dollar house for 10 grand then they find out pretty quick that they're spending like 25,000 bucks in other professionals to legitimise that $10,000 design. So they by the time like they're going to spend more money on their like surveyor soil test and engineer which is all supplementary to the main design than what they've actually invested in the design. And it kind of just I think they realise in the end the design was done so quick that we're now missing out and um there are some designers that can do a great job for less I'm sure maybe they're starting their businesses and whatever. But essentially a lot of people don't understand their words mate.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

Yeah exactly the whole industry has this race to the bottom so yeah there's a couple of architects designers that I've had conversations about this and I've said you you've got to put your price up you're too cheap.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

Yeah but like what really not upsets me but I just feel disappointed for these people is like because I'll follow up right like most business people follow up and I can also see online with the council database who's getting approvals and who's not and 90 I'm telling you 90% of the time if we don't get a job that project never gets built. So it's it's actually worse than that statistic you said at the start of the pod um and it's just like I really like they were really nice people I really could have helped them and pretty much if someone's actually finished a whole design project hardly anybody will ever start again because it's just too emotionally draining. Like they might have invested a year to get the design right and then maybe half a year to try and like grapple with trying to find other builders that are cheaper but no one can get it to what they want and they've really struggled to attract builders because they've used the cheapest engineer and the cheapest designer and the cheapest survey and like every everything is cheap and it's sort of like builders can smell it like it yeah it just puts off a bad vibe. Those people are never going to adjust the project they're just going to take the capital gain on the block of land and sell it and move on and I just think that's disappointing. So for us it's doing everything we can to try and show the value we can bring and just hope they're keen to take the punch.

Detailed Drawings That Protect Profit

SPEAKER_02 56:31

Yeah one of the designers we use a lot I would call him a mate the like I say to him all the time like your drawings are the best we well one of the best we work with like I yeah and I try and like I give him advice about doing like do posts about it because people clients don't know clients don't know what they should be getting in a good set of drawings. I but this is my personal opinion but I actually believe that most builders don't understand what a good set of drawings should look like like you should not be building a house off five to ten pages. Yeah. Like a good set of drawings like number one it gives everybody clarity. Number two it allows the builder to price it correctly but I think number three it takes out all the assumptions like and like most of the jobs that we're building like there's anywhere from I would say at a minimum 40 to 50 pages and even as high as a 100 150 on some jobs. And that's just plans. I'm not talking about specifications and those types of things but it just creates not well not only does it allow us to price it more accurately it allows us to set expectations with the client it allows the client to know everyone to be very clear about what's going on and what we're meant to do. Personally I believe as a builder it allows me to run a better business. Like because I don't have my like my supervisor not asking as many questions. Everyone knows they can get the information off the drawings.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:56

Like I'm not on the phone all the time half now oh what's the rebate for the sliding door what is other the are the windows getting rebated oh we're doing niches in the showers oh like what what heights are telling on the walls and so I feel like there's a lot of builders out there that and look I'll put my hand up I was definitely one back in the day that if I occasionally knew what the clients were spending on drawings like ah look yeah no don't you don't need to do that like just get the basic drawings the cabinet making can knock up the joiner drawings whereas now like I preach for you guys like I'm like seriously like the more money you spend on design the more drawings you get the better your job's gonna be the better I can price it the better I can manage it the better outcome you're gonna get and I think the the the other big thing with the drawings how it's helped my business is the the clarity around what everyone's getting like when you can when your sets of drawings have an elevation for every wall in a bathroom there's no there's no uncomfortable conversations with the client the c like because it's all refers to the drawings. Like I know that wall's half height tiles these walls are full height tiles like every I I know exactly what we're doing and we can we can turn to a drawing we can have a conversation about it. Yeah it's not like a floor plan with no elevations of a wet area and the builders allowed a certain square meters of tiles and then their clients got the shits on site because they thought they were getting full height tiling but the the the builders only let it do a skirting tile in the shower.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

Yeah and that that little that's just like a line item on some A4 written document is to discover the tiling. Yeah yeah it to like you know what you legally need to um get an approval it is like five pages. It's rubbish mate and then a couple of notes at the front if the person wants to cover their ass um with the standards pretty much get away with a site plan a floor plan and elevations and a roof plan. Well like you don't even need to do a roof plan you can just like dash on the the shape of the roof and like the section you can skip the section unless the certifier needs clarity on something and it's like it's like a short story version of the whole novel except that um you get some good acknowledges mate. But the difference is that's your marketing you need to do an Instagram post it on that oh like the difference is like a a a great short story has been passed down through generations or written by an amazing author that took ages to to write it but if the short story of the home has been whipped up in one week the it couldn't possibly have included the considerations that go into like the 50 to 100 pages you're gonna get from a full service. And the drawings are always a starting point too so like when you're in the preliminary phase like three quarters of the way through the design and you've got those first cut of elevations of your bathroom you can sit down with your builder and talk about how you're gonna do the mirror cabinet. Yeah. You know because the mirror cabinet's gonna have power points in it so you can charge your toothbrush yeah and you know there's a certain tap the client wants it's actually quite tall um so the mirror cabinet needs to be up at a height that when you flick the handle it doesn't smash into the glass you know all these things need to be like thought about and I know there'll be clients and builders and tradies listening to this that go, oh we just sort all that out on site. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:18

I'm telling you now if you're running a business that sorts that shit out on site you are losing money.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

Yeah like that there's always people that have they've winged it and they kind of fluked it or everything's just fallen into place for them. But generally speaking things happen people are late someone didn't see an email or whatever someone's sick and when life happens you need like a record and that's what your full set of plans is it's your record it's your Bible.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:46

And look obviously like kitchens bathrooms wet areas like they're like you don't need an elevation for every wall in a house but um if it that if it's got something special on it like bench seating or screening or something then yeah it should have a page for that but um it's it flows onto the trades as well like and look I I personally think that we all should be pushing clients to spend more money on their drawings. Like even the electrician for example like we we still do walkthroughs on all of our jobs like that's just our standard and that's so we can walk through we can all look at the drawings and we can make sure that the client understands what's shown on the elevation is like the light switches will be there the light the feature lighting will be there the pendant will be over there like but if we didn't have those full detailed drawings like those meetings run really efficiently if we didn't have those detailed drawings we would literally be standing in every room and the client would be like what's going on like there's too many decisions to be made like I just thought it was going there like yeah yeah like I totally vouch for doing that walkthrough with the electrician but I also vouch for having a full on electrical plan because when you're just doing the walk like let's say um you've taken the the cheaper approach of just getting the bare bones done for cheaper and then maybe you're just taking like a floor plan in that you can use red pen and mark up your power points are you going to remember the PowerPoint for the Christmas tree or every single like 1st of December are you going to get out the extension lead that you know is long enough to reach from here all the way around the room tucked under the rug for the Christmas tree like just tiny little things they all add up and setting out your lighting are the lights just going to be on an even grid because it looks neat or are they going to be purposeful for so certain areas are lit and certain areas that don't need to be lit like where a TV is a bit dimmer and is a wall that is going to have artwork is it going to have like wall lights or is there going to be feature posts that are going to have up lighting so you can see the timber grain is the ceiling you've spent all the money on going to be up lit so you can actually see the the pattern or the timber grain you put in the ceiling or are you just going to have down lights in your plywood all that basically my old boss used to explain it every line on a page means something and everything on a page is a decision.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:02

So what the drawings do is it's like thinking out loud you you're putting those decisions and there might be questions too like a lot of our drawings have like blue lines and blue font blue font which means it's like a suggestion as opposed to like a committed design so you put that on paper and then you can sit down and go through it and you can review the things that are questions and you can be happy with the things that do what would a blue what would one of them be? So it might be like a heating like an outdoor heater or it might be you don't need a ceiling fan in this room but we actually think you'd really benefit from it or this particular wall was actually an awesome space to have a niche is there a particular artwork that you want to like build in um how then we had to make s like we'll have the discussion how big is the artwork whereas if we didn't put that on there there'd just be no niche for the artwork at the end of the hallway or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:56

Yeah. Yeah no look drawings there is so much value in in having detailed drawings and just covering off on everything.

Interiors That Make The Home Work

SPEAKER_02 1:05:07

Even back in the day like I remember I would never like if the if the architect or designer had an interiors package I'd sort of say the client oh look it's up to you like don't but now it's just it should be a compulsory item like because I've just seen how much not only time it saves us on site but again it just it's about clarity. Like the client knowing what they're getting us knowing what we're pricing and everybody being on the same page.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:34

Yeah yeah the interiors um it's an interesting one because the interior service costs more than designing just the general building and the interiors you don't legally need it. You know you can either make it up as you go or the builder can help or maybe there's someone in your family that has like an eye for taste and stuff they can help. But when you don't get it done professionally you can't have that thinking Out loud and you can't have it suggested. And the reason why interiors is so important is it's the part that you experience for like 90% of the time that you're there, you're inside the building. So if you use a professional, they're going to be able to think about it at so much more depth. They're going to choose all the materials for different reasons, whether it's durability or the tactile nature of it. They're going to be able to get the colours just right. Like so often the interiors let a project down when really like they're more than the cherry on the cake. Like they are they can contribute significantly more than the architecture itself, actually.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:32

I agree a hundred percent, mate. We've done some incredible jobs that have um that have had the full package. And it just I'm a big believer that when a house is consistent from the front gate to the back fence, it it adds enormous value. Yeah. When there's when every single element of the project's been considered. Yeah. Like where you enter, where you exit, how the landscaping interacts with the building, how the interiors interact with the building, yeah, just it it does seem like a huge upfront initial cost. Yeah. But it is so worth it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:06

Yeah, and like the interiors can like if you've got the budget for it, it can be really sophisticated in that every like you said, from the front to the back, it all works. But the next level up with interiors is it doesn't all match. It's that it's all cohesive as like a family of like flavours, or you know, they all sort of they're all complimenting, they're all complementary. Um I guess kind of like you know the dessert soon, I think. Yeah, but essentially like the bathrooms, for example, yeah, they don't all have exactly the same tile and exactly the same top and exactly the same mixer. Maybe maybe the mixer's consistent, and maybe the stones are consistent, but the shapes of the tiles and the patterns of the tiles is different. And maybe some bathrooms have different accent tiles to others, but it's all got a theme. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:55

Yeah, the style's consistent, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:56

True, like and like that's more expensive because it's more decisions and there's you know, there's more in the schedule. But if you've got the budget for it, like that can just be another layer of sophistication and design. But even if you don't do that, even if it's just about having something that all marries in and you can just be happy with it. Because once the tiles go down, it's very expensive to pull them up.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:19

It's interesting you say that the interiors are just as much or more work than the design, like the house design. I never really thought about it, but I I guess there is it can be like double, triple, quadruple, five times. But you're you're considering every single wall, like every single tile, like fixture.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:36

If your interior design is cheaper than the design you're building, there's that should ring a bell that something's not right. Something's getting missed.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:43

Well, there you go. Hot tip. And so, well, that's the client side of it. But what what

Cash Flow Confidence And Charging Upfront

SPEAKER_02 1:08:49

about business? Like, um, because this podcast is about helping people run better businesses. Like, yeah, what's some of the I guess uh pain points you've had in the early days of business and how have you overcome them?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:00

I guess um on the early days it's managing that consistent cash flow. You know, when you're first starting out, most people are pretty nervous to charge up front, which is kind of the standard in the design world, is to get payment up front. Because if it's kind of not it's not like um delivering a physical trade where they can see you pushing a wheelbarrow, they can see you getting there at seven o'clock and packing up every day. Whereas in the design world, they'll meet you a couple of times, you'll deliver the service, so the wrong sort of people might just feel like not paying and would forget to pay. Um so when you're starting out and you you don't have the guts to charge up front, you get these huge periods of time where there's no money coming in. So just ironing that out. But eventually you figure out no, I am I should charge up front, it's a form of commitment. I've got things I need to spend money on, I've got to pay my graphics guy, I've got to pay my interior designer. Um, and if I've got drafts people working on it that I oversee, I've got to free up their time, I've got to commit to them. So that was a big one is is learning to either charge half up front or most upfront. And now the structure we have is the service is in phases, and each phase is up front. So you're never paying the whole lot at once, but you you're paying the phase up front, and that became especially important when we got really busy, just booked. Because if you've got people that aren't paying, yeah, you can't be prioritizing their work over someone that's keen as mustard that's like, please take my money, like this is really important to me. Yeah, so that was good, and like I wish that builders could enforce that. And I know the QBCC and other states have limitations on what you can charge up front, and yeah, but yeah, we definitely help builders.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:48

It's not about charging up front, it's just about understanding your draws and your cash flow and and standing your ground on that. But like what gave you the confidence to be able to do that? Because a lot of people that's what holds them back, is they I guess they don't number one, they don't believe in themselves, but I think the most important one is they they don't value themselves.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:08

Yeah. Well, see, like I went into I'd been working at the architects for seven years, and because it was a medium-sized established firm, their approach was you just charge monthly progress payments or at the end of a milestone. But they were like a fully established business with a premises and everything. So having what still that's a terrible way to run a business. Yeah, like having written their quotes for multiple years, I just went into a thing and that's just what you do. And then I found out that that's just not what you do. Um because you just start, yeah. But then you know, to I I'm a member of the Build and Designers Association, which is like an organization for our trade, essentially. And you speak with the other people in the industry and you work out okay, you're doing that. I should probably that makes total sense, I should do it too. And then you figure out okay, if you're charging this much for that sort of project, that means I can charge this sort of much as well. So becoming a member in your organization was a big one, it was super helpful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think and then trusting your accountant too in terms of business, like I guess like you can trust your designer or your architect for more than just design in terms of assembling your project team. I I very much trust my accountant. Um, even to the point when I want when I was thinking about buying a home, I thought I should get a mortgage broker. I'm not gonna Google mortgage brokers. I called my accountant, I'm like, David, who should I use for a mortgage broker? And he says, Oh, you should use bound code. Yeah, you know, they're amazing. So just um Yeah, build your circle. Build your circle. So yeah, accounts being super, super helpful and getting the business set up and just yeah, thinking about money and outgoings and expenses and yeah, like at the start, you sort of subscribe to everything. You think you need like all these online tools, and then you're sort of looking at your monthly um transaction, you're like, oh, there's all this money coming out. I didn't even use that app like for the past three years, past three months. I should probably cancel it. Um so you gotta constantly stay on top of that. Um, but yeah, it's always a challenge. You can never sort of take your finger off the pulse, can you? Never, mate.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:19

Every day's a school day. Like you've got to keep learning and talk, like doing what we're doing now, have conversations like you. Um I've definitely picked up a couple of things from our conversation today that I'll think more about. And um like again, it's the whole reason I'm doing this podcast. Like just promoting conversation within the building industry, everyone learning more about what other people do. And if I take a little bit from you and a little bit from Shay and a little bit from someone else, like we we just all keep benefiting. So like what you do might not um suit someone else a hundred percent. But if they can if you've said one sentence today that resonated with someone that they can take away and implement that'll improve their business or their life, then we've done our job. Yeah, so um yeah, to me it's all about just having these conversations and and sharing.

Where To Find Scott And Wrap

SPEAKER_02 1:14:03

Um, mate, I really appreciate you coming on today and travelling up from the Goldie and um and yeah, telling your story and uh I hope you keep um kicking goals, mate. Where can people find you and follow you and all that sort of stuff?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:17

So at BYO Floorplan on Instagram and then the website byofloorplan.com.au. I'm the lead designer there, so if you end up working with us, it'll always be me you speak with. You'll never get um allocated to someone else. So it just helps the communication, but not yet, not until yeah. Not yet. At the moment I can keep it this size. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, so look me up, um, happy to help out. And even if you just got just general questions, like if you're thinking, oh, can I add a granny flat and you're in a different area than me, I can just give you a few pointers if you're interested. Yeah. Put you in touch with someone that I might know. Awesome, mate. And what's um what's level up mean to you? Oh, I think just constantly improving, like, how can you make it better? Um, what's the next thing you want to do? So I think if you're happy to plateau, it's business probably isn't for you. I think it's always yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:12

Get comfortable, get being uncomfortable. Yeah. No, mate, as I said, appreciate your time today. Um, guys, go and check out um Scott's Instagram stuff. He's doing cracking designs, and I hope you've got a lot out of today. I definitely have. But um, as always, like, share, subscribe, make sure you press those little like buttons because that'll help us uh get our ratings up on Spotify and Buzzsprout and YouTube and all those uh places where we promote the podcast. As always, if you've got any questions, make sure you reach out. If you would like to come on this podcast and share your story, make sure you flick us an email. Yeah, look forward to seeing you on the next one. Cheers, guys.