Beyond the Event: A Youth Ministry Podcast
Bringing together influential voices from the CIY community to walk alongside you in your journey to maintain momentum between the mountaintop experiences of youth ministry.
Beyond the Event: A Youth Ministry Podcast
BTE 5.04 Prioritizing Student-Only Spaces vs. Integrating Students in "Big Church": Part 2 with Jordan Francis and Korey Klein
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A freshman gets baptized by his friends. A mom weeps because her child—wounded by past violence—finally steps out to a church event. Teenagers run cameras, lead songs, read Scripture, and help with communion. The thread tying it together is simple and bold: there’s no junior Holy Spirit, and students don’t need a separate church—they need a real place in the church.
We sit down with Jordan Francis of Reframe Youth to unpack why intergenerational ministry is more than a nice idea; it’s one of the strongest predictors of a faith that lasts beyond graduation. Jordan shares how smaller and more diverse congregations often integrate students by necessity, and how that necessity becomes a discipleship advantage. We dig into practical systems you can replicate: use Wednesdays to build relationships and pathways, then launch students into Sunday roles—worship, kids, production, hospitality—where older saints mentor and teenagers contribute in meaningful ways.
If you’re in a large church, Jordan maps a smart playbook: don’t start with the senior pastor; partner with kids and next gen leaders to build a simple pipeline, gather stories and data, and expand from proof-of-concept to church-wide practice. Along the way, we talk about calling out gifts, coaching through the mess, giving teens language for hard days, and shifting Sunday from a show to a shared family responsibility. Expect sharp insights, field-tested tactics, and stories that will reshape how you see teenagers in your worshiping community.
Hi, I'm Brad Warren, and this is Beyond the Event, a Youth Ministry podcast presented by Christ and Youth, where we help you maintain momentum between the mountaintops. Our guest today is Jordan Francis. I could not even begin to list his entire resume to you. He's uh works for an organization called Reframe Youth, which develops a curriculum for youth in urban settings. He's a youth pastor at a church in the Dallas area as a volunteer. You'll hear a little bit about that later. But Jordan and I are going to be uh we are going to be finishing up a conversation about the intentionality of student-only spaces versus getting in student students integrated into big church by talking about that latter piece. How do we get students involved in intergenerational ministry? Uh before we dig into that, though, it's story time. Just a reminder that if you have a story that you want to share with us because you think it would encourage us or uh challenge us in a specific way, type it up, email it to podcast at CIY.com, and I will read it on a future episode. Today's story comes for Jeremy Welsh at Fern Creek Christian Church in Louisville, Kentucky. Hey CIY, just wanted to share a cool story from Move This Summer. I've got a core group of freshman boys who were attending their first move. They've been friends for years, and they have a friend who didn't go to church. The first time he stepped foot into the church was when uh we had a nerf war in January. He had a great time, and his friends continued to invite him to come back uh for church on Sundays and groups on Wednesdays, which he did. This guy heard about move and knew that his friends were going, so he signed up as well. In fact, uh I was on the waiting list until May and was able to get a couple of my extra spots, one of which ended up being this guy. Sorry that you were on the waiting list. That's from me, Jeremy, not from Jeremy. Okay. By day three, uh, this young man came and told me that he wanted to be baptized. When move was over, I met with this young man along with his three friends who had been inviting him to church, bringing him to church, and just being his friend to have a conversation about baptism. On Sunday, July the 6th, this young man, Tyler, was baptized by his three friends. From January to July, God was moving in Tyler's life through his friends, orchestrating it to where I was able to get more spots from the wait list so that Tyler could attend. And through the speakers and environment and move, Michigan 2, and it culminated with Tyler being baptized. Thanks for the role you all played. Joined by Corey Klein, CIY's director of Superstart. How does that story make your little heart feel, Corey? I mean, that's the podcast.
SPEAKER_04:That's it. That was crazy. We're done. I mean, well, Jordan's great. I want that to Jordan still, but that was really cool.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Um, just kidding, just kids out here changing the world. Yeah. You know?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Freshman boys.
SPEAKER_04:Every day when you're having a bad day, just think about what God is doing through students every single day right now.
SPEAKER_03:In all seriousness, though, you you uh you carry the flag for preteen ministry here at Christ in you. So from preteens all the way up to freshmen in high school, like who else gives that group of people like the amount of uh responsibility and the amount of opportunity that the church and maybe more broadly just Jesus gives them. You know? Yeah. It's incredible. Like, there's nowhere else in life where we're like, hey, um, so you're surrounded by some people who uh don't love the Lord and uh you're in charge of making them aware that he loves them. It's like crazy stuff. It's it's cool though. It's so cool.
SPEAKER_04:It's so cool.
SPEAKER_03:All right, superstart is coming up fast. Yeah, Brad, it is. Are you gonna go to it? I'll go to one.
SPEAKER_04:What about two?
SPEAKER_03:I'll go to two.
SPEAKER_04:How about three? Maybe four. Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, I'll go to four. Okay, great. Uh, I am directing four superstarts this year, which is a little crazy, but I'm looking forward to it. It's gonna be so fun. How many people direct that many? What how what are you directing?
SPEAKER_04:Uh I think four or five. Yeah. What am I doing? Why have you asked me? You walked into my office. This guy, you if you know Brad, this is Brad. Uh he walks into my office and says, Corey, I want to go to more. That's what you said. It was something like that. I was like, okay. That's you were mad at me because you went to two of them last year, and you went to three the previous year. So I'm giving you four.
SPEAKER_03:Four. I get to go to Florida, I get to go to Richmond, Virginia, I get to go to Omaha, Nebraska, I get to go to Nashville, Franklin, Tennessee. Yeah, man. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Yeah. Uh, what are you looking forward to about the tour?
SPEAKER_04:Um, honestly, I'm really excited. This is probably every year, if you listen to the podcast every year, it's like, oh, Corey says the same thing. Here I am saying the same thing, and I'm really consistent.
SPEAKER_03:You're the king of consistency.
SPEAKER_04:I am. I'm really excited about the scripture and the topic that we're talking about this upcoming year. It's really cool how God plants the seeds and works through children's and preteen and youth pastors as we have conversations. Like year a year and a half before we even start working on this about hey, what what do uh these students need to hear about? And just, you know, in this season of life to talk about what can I believe, who can I believe, and that we can literally lean into what Jesus says that he is the way, he is the truth, he is the life. I think there's nothing more important right now. And you talked about people working with middle schoolers, preteens, you know, before the evening of the high school. This is foundational. And so I'm really excited that we could do that with also the superstar twist, if you've never been, where there's silly games and maybe a play, awesome worship, and maybe a potato coming back. I don't know. I didn't say a lot of people. This is news to me. Breaking news. You're breaking actually. I don't know. You gotta come the superstar to know if Gary the Potato is coming back. I I heard rumors. Wait, do I get to do the VO? Maybe. Uh if Rob Watson is listening or watching this, Rob, let me know. I have no idea.
SPEAKER_03:Um, you want to hear a funny Michael Hester story?
SPEAKER_04:Please and thank you.
SPEAKER_03:So last year I did two voiceovers for uh Superstart. I did I was like the omniscient narrator of the Gary videos. And what else did I do?
SPEAKER_04:He also did our main films at the end, or claymation. The claymation videos, that's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And I was talking to Michael after uh rehearsal week or something, and Michael does voiceover stuff and he's great at it. He's phenomenal. So I was like, Michael, what'd you think? And he goes, Man, I thought you did a really good job on the claymation videos. You did great. I didn't love your performance in the Gary videos.
SPEAKER_04:Michael, can you chime in on this? Why what did you not like about the Gary videos versus the claymations?
SPEAKER_03:He didn't not like the Gary videos. He didn't like my performance. But your performance, that's what I'm asking. My bad.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I was gonna tell you exactly what I actually said. Maybe not like word for word, but like really there is a spirit to what I said. Okay. That Brad left out. Love it. What is it to go for it? I said it sounded like when you recorded those, you were just given a list of lines and you read each line in isolation. Which is exactly what happened. That's exactly what happened.
SPEAKER_04:My question, did you look at it before? Like, were you like, I'm gonna look at this? I went in and I recorded my audio, or was it like you are at least once?
SPEAKER_03:Rob sent it to me. Yeah. But it was like, I mean, you're just reading lines off of a page, and you it's weird because like I don't know what the frick Gary is gonna do next. Like, I have no idea. I don't know what this little guy looks like. Yeah. And uh, so you're just like imagining a potato saying something back to you. It's like vegetarian. Like, how would I respond to this potato if he was saying this to me? Yeah. And it's just a weird headspace to be in.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I don't know, man. I don't know if Gary's coming back. If he is, just be ready just in case I'll have to find out in January.
SPEAKER_03:You have my agent's number, so uh I actually do. Yeah. It's just me.
SPEAKER_04:It's him.
SPEAKER_03:But I talk in a British accent when I'm my agent.
SPEAKER_04:Really? Can just really quickly, what does it sound like? Well, I'm not my agent. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Uh okay. I'm also excited for Superstart. Yeah. I'm infinitely more excited for Superstart now that there's a possibility that Gary might be coming back. No, well, here's what I'll say. If he doesn't come back, my life is ruined. I'll say this right now on the podcast. Now that you've now that you've like put that out there, if he doesn't come back, I'm quitting my job and I'm moving to a remote island because I'll be so sad that I won't be able to bear being in this building anymore.
SPEAKER_04:No, I'll make it a win-win for you. If he comes back, great. If he does not, I will get a Gary the Potato tattoo on my arm. Okay. Great.
SPEAKER_03:Sounds good.
SPEAKER_04:So does that make you happy if he doesn't come back if I get a tattoo?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, yes.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, there you go.
SPEAKER_02:Would we be able to get an alternative revenue stream for the organization if we maybe did like Gary the Potato like cameo?
SPEAKER_04:Do you know Gary's agent? I don't know. Do you know Gary's agent? I don't know Gary's agent. I think it's Rob.
SPEAKER_03:Is it Rob? I think it's Tripp. I think it's Trip Watson. Uh anyway, Superstar is going to be an absolute delight. We are very excited. Uh, we have 17 events. Yes. Yeah. 17 events that people can go to, including we are back. We are back in the mountain time zone.
SPEAKER_04:We are. But where in the mountain time zone? Phoenix, Arizona.
SPEAKER_03:That's right. We're so excited to be at Sun Valley. We haven't had a superstar at Phoenix since before COVID, I believe. Right.
SPEAKER_04:We're actually so uh we are there, but the one that it's on the website is actually at Central. So we're at Central.
SPEAKER_03:I'm a big dumb dummy. I'm sorry about that.
SPEAKER_04:I'm just saying that so you know.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:We're at Central, so it's gonna be great uh in Arizona. Um so I cannot wait.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, if you're in Arizona, come hang out with us. It's gonna be a blast. Um, it's early, it's in January because you can do things in January in Phoenix.
SPEAKER_04:I want it probably 65 degrees. It's gonna be great. I don't want to know what it's gonna be like in Missouri. Incredible.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, um okay, we're gonna go talk to Jordan. We're gonna have a great conversation with Jordan before we do that. It's time for Mike Up. Woo! With Mike. Mike'd up with Mike, producer Michael. He's here. What do you have for us?
SPEAKER_02:Hey, correct me if I'm wrong. Corey is the one that suggested that name.
SPEAKER_03:I actually think that that might be true.
SPEAKER_02:I'm pretty sure it's true.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So everyone, we're in the presence of greatness. Wow. It does sound like Corey. I remember the moment it happened. Um okay. Here's what I think I would like to maybe do um with this. Um I I think I think every once in a while it's nice to maybe just like have a celebration of hobbies. Oh, okay. Um and pretty sure Lauren is looking at me like like I'm a child. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Well, she doesn't have hobbies. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Lauren literally looking at Brad.
SPEAKER_04:Does Lauren get to talk into that fourth mic? Lauren has hobbies.
SPEAKER_03:Lauren is a very good uh soccer player. Lauren loves hanging out with her friends. Lauren loves being outside, going on hikes, and uh And she's not having a good time, right?
SPEAKER_04:She's not having a good time. Lauren also updates her friends on Instagram and like, here's what I've done the last four months. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. And it's great.
SPEAKER_02:Oh man. This has been Lauren's favorite day of recording the podcast, I can tell. Um anyway. Um I I think I think Lauren also loves Chai. Okay. Lattes? That's a hobby. Yeah, that's a hobby. Okay. Yep. Uh I will talk um a little bit about a hobby that I have, um, of the several that I have. Um, but I also think it would be nice to just hear about maybe a couple of the hobbies that you guys have um and the things that you enjoy about them. So put your thinking caps on. Oh, I've turned the caps you're currently wearing into thinking caps. I've got it. I'm locked and loaded. So let me let me talk just like really, really, um, really briefly. Um for approximately a year and two weeks-ish. I have been um on uh a journey with one of my uh with one of my hobbies that I started a year and two weeks ago. Um I am really into photography. Um I have been for several years. Um but last year I started shooting um on film um and it genuinely truly has been the most fun that I've had um uh with photography. It has been a blast. And the thing um the thing that I really enjoy about it is just the way that it like slows me down. It makes me like pause and think um and really take in my surroundings um and all of those things. And I think that it's just like a true blessing to get to have um a hobby that um uh that really kind of puts me in a place where I have to engage with God's creation. Um these are things that I've said before, so it's like kind of fresh on my mind. Um actually I posted about it on Instagram, so like I wrote the whole thing out. Check it out. Um this is just like a summary version of that. But um it's I I just think that I just think that these things are um are a gift from the Lord. I think it's nice to actually sit and reflect on um those kinds of gifts that the Lord has given us. I would love to turn this back over to you guys and hear. Rob is sorry, Rob, what am I saying? Brad. Sorry, I was thinking about Rob a minute.
SPEAKER_04:We have said Rob's name a lot on this episode. It's true.
SPEAKER_02:Um Brad, I think, is just like ready to fire away.
SPEAKER_03:He is. I'm I can be ready. I mean, you were you it sounded like you immediately knew. Well, I didn't immediately know before one.
SPEAKER_04:I just want to say, can we sit in the moment of like your hobby really quick? Is that fine before we talk?
SPEAKER_03:Well, I actually was gonna do the same thing.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, can we can we talk about Michael really quick? You're so talented.
SPEAKER_03:I have a Michael Hester original hanging above my toilet. I see it literally every day.
SPEAKER_02:I didn't know that's where you put it.
SPEAKER_03:What's the photo? It's it's a picture of a scissor tail flyer. Scissor tailed flycatcher, which is a bird that we have here in the South Central United States that is just absolutely stunning. It's sitting on a barbed wire fence uh next to I think it was taken next to your house, right?
SPEAKER_02:I had just pulled into my driveway and stopped when I saw it because I was like, I don't want that to fly away. I'm gonna take a picture of it.
SPEAKER_03:And you did, and I love that picture. And well, most of the photography that Michael does is a little bit more like urban in like urban lighting influence kind of thing. Um, but he had that's not as like I wouldn't have a picture like that hanging in my house, but you've taken a few really cool nature shots too, and that was one, and I was like, I have to have that picture. It's so good.
SPEAKER_04:That's literally you're so good at it. Please keep taking more photos, and people should see more of your work. And I'm not I'm I know you did not want this, but people should buy your work. Your work is great.
SPEAKER_03:At Michael's Neology on Instagram.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. Go check him up. He'll he'll print you a print. Thanks for the shout. I do sell prints.
SPEAKER_03:It's great. Brad, what about you? Um, my hobby is fly fishing. And it's funny because I was I was listening to you talk about it. I was like, this is the same thing. Like all of the reasons are the same. Yeah. Like it forces you to slow down. You can't do it and have your phone in your hand. Uh you're you are in the middle of of God's creation. You're in in tune with like you're in tune with nature, but you also have to be in tune with like the ecosystem. Like, I don't want to nerd out too much about it, but you gotta know like what aquatic insects are in the water and what phase they're in, and how what are the trout eating, and um, you know, like how do I present this in a way that is similar to the way that it would appear in nature? And um, it's just really cool. I've learned so much about bugs. I've learned so much about fish and um fly fishing. I I was raised doing a little bit of like lip ripping bass fishing, which is just like different like it's just faster and more aggressive, and you know, um fly fishing is very slow, it's very uh metronomic, it's very deliberate. That's a word. Uh I don't know if that is a word, but everyone will know what it means. Yeah. Um and I when I have a bad day, I I plan my next fishing trip. I say, okay, I need to get in this headspace in order to feel better.
SPEAKER_04:I love it. Mine is like the opposite of you two. You both are like peaceful, patience. Uh I like to play the drums. That's maybe the opposite of that. Um, but it is peaceful to me. Um I've been drumming honestly since I was five, but the last year I've been wanting to get I drum for my church and whatnot, but like I actually continue to get better, and I find a lot of just I don't know, joy in that. And I have not owned a drum set in like 12 or 13 years, and I'm going to buy one and just put it in my house and make my neighbors get really mad at me, but that's okay. And your wife. Well, no, my wife wants me to get one. I've been saying no. She's like, please get drum set. I want you the drum. Like, my wife's been pushing for it. Hannah, you're amazing. Shout out to Hannah. And so I think we love Hannah on this podcast. She's great. She's great. She's great. Uh, and so she's been encouraging in that. And I'm all I'm actually the one that's like, I don't want to be annoying. I don't, but she's like, no, I think this is a gift and something that you enjoy doing. It gives you peace and joy. So drumming. But it's not the other two. It's very loud. It's very loud.
SPEAKER_03:Like my voice. Uh this was a delightful conversation. Thank you, Michael.
SPEAKER_04:Um, that was also I put my hat on, by the way. You said put on your and I'll twist it back around.
SPEAKER_03:You didn't rally cap it though. Uh but yeah, now that we've done that and I'm in a delightful headspace, I think it's time that we go and talk to Jordan. All right, Jordan Francis, I understand that you are uh passionate about getting students involved in what we would typically call big church adult ministries um and kind of integrating them into those spaces. Is that true? Yes. I thought so. Okay, great. Okay. So we're just gonna start this conversation in the easiest place to start it, which is I want to know where that comes from. Why is this something that you care about?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's a great question. So I think it comes from a couple of things. Number one, the research, right? So the research talks about kids leaving the faith, what is it a million, a million students a year right now? Something like that.
SPEAKER_03:You would know better than me, but like that wouldn't surprise me, which is crazy.
SPEAKER_00:It's it's something it's something astronomically ridiculous. Um, and so what like what's gonna turn the tide on that? Like, what are the things that actually keep kids in the faith, in relationship with God, in relationship with his people, in relationship with uh the local church? Um, couple things, one of them being having relationships with other adults outside of their parents that are faith forming, right? And so how else is that gonna happen other than intergenerationally, right? And intergenerationally in the local church context. And so I think it's one thing to have adults be a part of the youth ministry, which is absolutely absolutely necessary and needed. Like sure, everybody loves young adults showing up, they connect really well with students, it's awesome. But at the same time, having those older, wiser, you know, grandparents and you know, um mothers, fathers in the faith, so to speak, showing up and sharing wisdom and building those types of relationships with students is essential. But then to have it outside of that context too, in main service, big church, whatever you want to call it, is really important. Um and what's interesting is in smaller churches, and then also in churches that are um more black and brown, just to be frank, those things are already happening, and then they happen by necessity, right? And in those contexts, I think we're actually seeing people leave and not come back at a smaller number because of it.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, can we can we like dig into that a lot? That is one of the most interesting things ever. Because I go I I go to a church that is capital W white. Like we live in the middle of Missouri, and like there's not there's just I mean, that is this the that is life. We don't have a ton of diversity here. So I'm really interested to hear you say that like churches that do skew a little bit more diverse, a little bit more so some, I'm sure you're referring to African-American churches and all these types of things, like I think it's partly because of like culture, right?
SPEAKER_00:And so like we have to we have to get into the cult conversation of culture, the West, what do we value? We value privatization, we value individualism, right? And so in our in our larger churches where there's a lot of resource, what we tend to do is individualize, privatize everything. And we do that with ministries, right? Like the reality is hey, uh, everybody doesn't want crying babies in service, and everybody doesn't want kids running around making a bunch of noise, they want to hear what the pastor has to say. So let's spend a bunch of money to put the kids where we're gonna put them, right? And once again, I'm not saying there isn't benefit to that, but in everything there's trade-offs. So, what are the trade-offs that we're talking about? And so I think in that, right, we're seeing some some of the lack of these intergenerational relationships, and as a consequence, um, I think that's contributing to us seeing kids leave the faith, right? Because once again, we've already we've already established that intergenerational relationships are necessary to help keep kids in the faith post-high school, right? And so in churches that are smaller, number one, you have less resource, so you can't outsource those things. Like you don't have a full-time youth pastor, you don't have a full-time kid pastor. Like in my church, there's 150 people, I'm the volunteer youth and young adult pastor. Right? Yeah, there isn't the resource. So, and what the super dope thing, too, is like our kids are because of that, and also because I think it's essential, our kids are heavily involved. They're on the worship team on Sunday morning, they're working all the media stuff, they're helping create media stuff, they're working in kids. And I'll be honest about this too. I've worked at one of the largest mega churches in the country, and they have students doing a bunch of stuff too, which I also think is super essential. Kids are they're serving in kids, they're refereeing soccer soccer games for the rep programs, they're coaching teams. They can actually be assistant coaches and helping their parents coach teams. So, you know, a kid's in eighth grade and he's helping his dad coach a fourth grade soccer team or pre-K soccer team or whatever. Like, I think all of those things are essential for kids to remain in the faith. So I wouldn't say it's every single large church, right? And every single small church that's getting it right. I think just generally speaking, when we look at some of the principles that shape those environments, I think we can learn some things. And one of those is intergenerational ministry or intergenerational connections is essential for youth. And I think it's gonna keep them in the faith. And um yeah, it's really important.
SPEAKER_03:So um I'm sorry, I'm like jumping in so much. Whenever you want to interrupt me, you just interrupt me. You're good. I was gonna say something, but you're you're on. Okay, no, you go ahead.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I just going off, Jordan, as we're on that talk, but you know, as we continue through this, uh when I think of this topic of like what it looks like for students to be in the congregation in main service, big church, whatever you want to call it, a lot of times my first like thought is this is really good for them as you know, as they go through high school, go into college to not slip through the cracks for them to be a part of the uh the congregation. But also I've seen it like I I look past back to the summer, like as I'm at my church worshiping and seeing these high school college students coming back from things like CIY move or whatnot, whatnot, with with this fire uh for Jesus to worship and they're sitting in the room, it's also an encouragement to the whole congregation. You know, it's like not only for them as they are there, but also for those who are older. So I was just curious what your thoughts on that. And yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, 100%. I think we should definitely capitalize on that energy, you know. Um, and I think it it it like when you see young people passionately worshiping the Lord, man, like it does something to you, you know, whoever you are. If you if you love Jesus, it does something to you.
SPEAKER_03:So there's messages of mutual benefit. We can all like we all, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But I but I think once again, even to take it a little bit further, like there's no junior Holy Spirit. Like this this idea that we like, and whether it's implicit or explicit, we separate them because they're different and they don't have as meaningful things to contribute. I don't think that's true. Like I've heard incredibly profound things come out of junior hires' mouth. Like God is speaking through you right now, to me in my life, and speaking to something that you don't even know that He's speaking to. And so I think we just have this idea that like junior hires and high schoolers have very little to offer a congregation, and and the same with kids as well, and that's why we kind of like put them off to the side. And I think that in some cases that's explicit, most cases implicit. But I think they have a ton to offer. I think they should be on the stage leading the worship. I think they should be given the call to worship if your church does that. They can be reading the scriptures, they can be helping with communion. Like we did uh um student Sunday, and you know, I had one of our students help lead communion post-service. You know what I'm saying? We put a video together, we had kids, students lead in worship, the whole team, the whole worship team was students, and it was super dope. But I'm like, why does it have to be student Sunday? Why can't that be every Sunday? You know what I mean? Why can't they be just as involved every week? Um, because I think once again, they have something meaningful to contribute to the body of Christ, right? Like Paul said it, Ephesians 3 that we would comprehend the height, the length, the depth, the width of Christ's love with all the saints, not some, all of them. And so when I get together with all of the saints and I see my brothers and sisters who are eight years old and can teach me about the faithfulness of walking with God through suffering and illness and pain and all the jobs that they've lost and all the wars that they've they've seen happen, and yet they still love and serve Jesus. But then I also can see my teenage brother or sister in Christ who's passionate about the Lord, preaching the gospel at their high school campus, or having hard conversations with their friends, standing up for truth in their high school, whatever it may be. And I can be encouraged by that too. And so I just think we're missing something when we diminish what high schools and junior hires have to offer to our congregations at large.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I agree with you, which is obviously like a super big part of CIY's Yeah, I mean, it's right there in our mission statement, like this call to Kingdom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So um, like philosophically, obviously, like I love where you're at and where you're kind of leading us. Um, I do want to talk practically for a second, just like if I'm a well, let's say a family, mom and dad, and their seventh grade kid strolls into your church for the first time, somebody connects them with you, hey, this is our youth pastor, they say, Hey, we'd really love to get involved in the youth ministry here. What does that practically look like? Like what is that student going to experience?
SPEAKER_00:At our youth ministry, yeah, in particular? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, on a Wednesday night, man, we're just focused on building relationships, having conversations, eating together, having some fun together. It's nothing crazy.
SPEAKER_03:Nothing's that a special per se.
SPEAKER_00:Is that just students? Yeah, on a Wednesday night, it's like it's high school and junior high and adults. So we still have that Wednesday night experience. I wouldn't say that we would get rid of that. And obviously, once again, I'm in the state of Texas, so uh getting rid of a Wednesday night would be like sacrilege, right? Exactly. Yeah, so that's that's heresy, blasphemy, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_03:But yeah, so like you're you're trying to be more protective of like Sunday mornings as this intentionally intergenerational space. So what what um like are you are you using Wednesday nights as like a catalyst to push students toward like getting involved on a specific volunteer team or uh you know joining a certain group or or whatever that may be? Like how does that how does that pathway work?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's that for sure. So the cool thing is once again, I think, and I think this kind of this is the thing about smaller churches. A lot of this stuff is by necessity. Yeah. Right. And so it's like kids serving students because they have to. There's no one else to serve. Right. But there's also this reality of like you've accidentally stumbled into something. And so I'm having these conversations with my pastor. Like, yo, as we're growing, we have to make sure that this stuff does not get pulled out of the DNA. We need to make sure this our students are still doing the same things that they were doing before. And maybe it's even a situation where if we've got other people who want to volunteer, maybe our students are helping train some of those people to fill some of those roles that our students have been filling. Um, it's about giving them ownership, about giving them opportunity to lead, to encourage, all those different types of things. And so before I got there, this was already a part of the culture, whether that be on purpose or by accident. And now it's like, okay, as we continue to grow, how do we fight for that not to change? And here's why it's essential for this not to change. So as the church grows, if the Lord wills for it to grow, then I'm gonna be like, yo, we can't change this about a congregation. Who cares if we've got, well, I say who cares? It may be great that we've got these other people that want to serve, but at the same time, what I don't want to do is for us to like now malign our young people and say, hey, we don't need you to do that anymore. Hey, you don't you don't have to show up and be a part of this anymore. And we want them to be a part of it as much as we want our adults to be a part of it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:100%. And so I think it would look like them showing up on uh a Wednesday night, building relationships, getting to know the church, their family becoming comfortable, them becoming comfortable. And then as as as they're growing and coming on Sunday mornings, they're gonna see other youth, other youth on the cameras, other youth um hanging out in kids' ministry, serving together. And I think if you've got relationships and you're hanging out with those people, you're gonna end up doing what they do kind of by osmosis. So if your homie who you've connected with on Wednesday nights serves in second grade on Sunday morning, you might be like, well, I'm just gonna go hang out with him in that room and serve then.
SPEAKER_03:So we're we're talking a lot about the student side of this, where it's like, hey, we're yeah, we're trying to drive students to serve, um, and they're seeing their friends serve, which is gonna make them want to serve, and they have to serve because we're a small church, and that's all great. Have you had to do, and the answer to this may be no, I'm not trying to lead you anywhere. I genuinely am curious. Have you had to do any legwork with the adults in your church to like get them used to the idea that like students are going to be involved at a high level in what's going on in the church? Uh no. That's just like part of the DNA. Okay. Absolutely. What would your then then I'm gonna put you on the spot? What would your encouragement be to somebody who is not a part of a small church plant and um is part of a very established culture? And uh maybe those those pathways aren't there yet, and there's gonna have to be some work getting done. How would you like encourage that person?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would so the way I would start is, and this is just me off the top of my head thinking about it. When you work at a large church, right, convincing the the lead pastor or something is like, let's just keep it, call it what it is, dang near impossible. So don't even start there, right? I'm not even starting with leadership, I'm starting with the people that I'm collaborating with in next gen. The chances are there's kids pastor or multiple kids pastors, and then there's middle school guy, high school guy, young adults, whatever. So we'll be like, okay, let me go to my kids' ministry person, start chopping up with them, and be like, hey, what would it look like for us to have a little pipeline going where maybe we're training some of our students and they're coming and serving in some of your classrooms and filling in some gaps? Right. So I would start there. So now I'm I'm into proof of concept. Let me make this work, let me come up with a system, let me come up with a methodology, let me come up with a training process in collaboration with somebody they already work with. Let's prove the concept and then let's expand the concept. So once I prove it and I get a pipeline, now I can go to other people and say, hey, this is already working here. Here's the benefit of it. We're seeing our students get plugged in, growing their faith. Let's let's figure out how to do this with you too, right? Because now you've got social proof so you can get more buy-in. And then once you've got buy-in across next gen, you can be like, hey, Pastor, look at what we did, look at what we figured out. This is something we should champion across the church. Look at how this is affecting the way that we do next gen ministry. Then it becomes more of a thing.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know what I'm saying? And instead of, hey, we, you know, hey, we got to do this and we got to throw money into it, like that's just it's not gonna happen. So that's how I would start it. I would start it at the pace of relationship with the people that I already work with and collaborate with them to figure out how we make this thing happen.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. It's funny because um you're you're yeah, I mean, you're speaking my language in a l in a lot of ways, but it's like um the senior minister relationship. I'm wondering how like well, let me let me back up a little bit and say it, say it kind of this way. I feel like if you do it the way that you're describing, it's gonna it's it's the right way to do it. It's gonna take a little bit of time, right? And you're gonna have to invest quite a bit over a long period of time in order to kind of like be able to see some fruitfulness of this. But by then, I feel like you already will have accumulated a pretty significant little amount of data to show that like, hey, service makes faith sticky for kids as they're like jumping into the to the next phase. And um yeah, I'm curious how you've seen that play out in in in your context.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, so where just to give you context, where I am at, I've been back here a year, right? So all of it's still really new in terms of where I am at specifically right now. Okay. Um but what I can say is like, for example, so the guy who who is my intern who I'm training to be the youth pastor, he's been at the church since he was born, pretty much, from my understanding. Or no, not that's not true. The church has been open 13 years, he's been there since the beginning. There was another church before that that he was connected to family, AG stuff. And so um he's come through the ranks, he's serving, and now he's gonna be the youth pastor, and he's been serving us this whole time. Another guy who's a volunteer, he's been serving since he was in high school, he's in college now, still shows up every Wednesday as one of the most consistent volunteers. And so that's just two people that I'm thinking of off the top of my head that have been involved in this thing since they were, you know, whatever grade it would be at 12 years old.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and or younger, and they're they're now like anchors, fundamental anchors in the church. They serve in worship, they serve on Wednesday nights, they they serve in all different types of capacities, doing all different types of things. Like our church wouldn't function properly without those two individuals. I can tell you that for a fact.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and it's like that's a difficult conversation if you identify somebody in your church who you feel like is high capacity who hasn't been on that journey, and you walk up to them and you're like, Hey brother, how would you feel about becoming the youth pastor here? It's like, whoa, okay, that's radical, that's weird. Um, but like it feels like it would almost be natural or like it was a natural progression for this um young man, woman, I don't know, guy or girl. Dude, name's Caleb. He's super cool. For this young guy to shout out to Caleb to like uh work his way into this position, which I think is really neat and addresses another issue, which is just that like churches can't find people to hire now. Like there's a huge shortage of of pastors, and so the fact that you have this system set up where it's like, hey, we're able to get kids serving from a very young age, put them on a trajectory where they're able to discover their giftedness and how that plays out in the context of the local church, and then we're able to like see that come to fruition when we hire them on and they become part of this like team. That's really neat, man.
SPEAKER_00:And the truth, and just to be clear, it doesn't always work. So like fair. But I'm just I just want to be, I just want to keep it a stack, like it's messy, it's already been messy for me. Like I I literally um allowed a student, am I gonna go into too much detail, obviously, allowed a student to teach a sermon, and then a couple weeks later, something very, very catastrophic happens. And no one's dead or anything like that, but something happened, and it's like, yo, you know what I'm saying? And so once again, like when you're getting involved with students and you see the call, and like I see the call of God on students' lives in our youth ministry, and I'm calling it out like, yo, God has called you to something. Like, I like you have this gift, I can see it in you, I can see you use it, I can see the influence you have, I can see how well you communicate. You're I can you can sing all these different types of things. And so I think in the context of our youth ministries, like we should be constantly calling out and encouraging students to be thinking about ministry as a possibility of something that God has called them to. Because um, I mean, CIY did an incredible job this summer, like pointing to that reality that most people get into ministry because someone told them that they saw something in them that they didn't see in themselves. And then they start exploring and investigating that and recognize, like, yo, maybe God has called me, maybe he has asked me to use these gifts. And part of the way that students are gonna figure that out is for you to give them the opportunity to figure out if they have that gift or not. What better place to do it than in youth group? Yeah. What are we waiting for? What am I in the pulpit for? Yeah, no, bro. I need I need you up there preaching. I need you guys up there leading worship, I need you guys leading small groups, I need you guys leading your friends to the faith. I just need to be there to facilitate and help you navigate challenges and navigate challenges in your own life.
SPEAKER_03:Like, I yeah, and to your earlier point to like just encourage, because that's not something that's like naturally like I don't know that a lot of students who could do a really good job teaching a lesson think to themselves like, I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna ask if I can teach a lesson at a church. It's like, no, not at all. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Jordan, I'm curious talking about you know, seeing something in a student, talking about what God has in store for them, seeing a gift accountability. Talking about them volunteering in your church there um in Texas. If you think they're the the faces, the people that you see day in, day out, or on Sundays, Wednesdays at your church, is there a good majority of them where it's like you or other leaders at your church said, Hey, I see this in you, and that's why they're volunteering and they're jumping in? Or are there also students who came to you who are like felt like, hey, I I feel like I can do this? Like, does that make sense? I'm just curious. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I I even had one student come to me and be like, Hey, I can't not one.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But when I'm like, hey, uh next Wednesday, you're leading worship. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Hey bro, get out of here.
SPEAKER_03:You know.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Like, what are we doing? I'm here in ministry, not because I was like, I think this would be a good idea, but because somebody else uh who had the Holy Spirit uh said, Hey, maybe this is something that you should think about doing. I don't know where I would be if he had not said that to me, truthfully. I mean, maybe God would have still found a way to get me to where I am now, but you know, I don't know. He definitely used that.
SPEAKER_04:I think that just echoes the importance of what you guys talk about then to to when you see something, whether you're an adult leader, pastor at your church, a parent, brother, sister, whatever it is, who's he sees this to the actually point it out. Yeah, that's huge.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, it just it comes down to on some level, what do we think the church is? What do we think youth group is? To me, youth group is this community coming together of young people trying to discover who they are, trying to discover what it means to follow Jesus, what he's called them to. And I I need to create an environment where they can answer those questions. And part of answering that question, those questions is like, what gifts do you have and how are you gonna offer them to the local body? And so there has to be space for them to discern what those gifts are, which I don't know any teenagers that can discern their own gifts. That is very rare, if happens at all. So, like it's gonna take us as adults calling out what we see in them and telling them that we believe in their ability to hone, craft, develop that skill, and then giving them opportunity to do it, right? It's gonna take that and then the same thing in the local church context, because that's what we do with adults, right? Like we give them opportunities to serve, we train them, we challenge them, we encourage them, we do the same thing with with young people and give them the opportunity to do that in the large church context as well. Because once again, there's no junior Holy Spirit. If they're in Christ, then we're all in Christ. And the reality is we read the gospels. Who did Jesus use to flip the world upside down? A bunch of teenagers. You know what I'm saying? So um, yeah, I think it's it's pretty self-evident. Revivals, when the where do revivals happen? They don't happen at old folks' homes, you know what I'm saying? They're happening in in colleges, right? They're happening with young people, and so we need to create spaces for young people to like hone and express and and and develop their gifts. And it's yeah, man, I think about one of the prayers the one of the prayers that I pray for my son is God, use my son to do things that you couldn't use me to do. Because I got saved at 20 years old, had already been walling out, already done a bunch of stuff, already defollowed my mind and heart in ways that I have to still work through to this day, 15 years later. And I'll probably have to continue to work through for the rest of my life because there are just decisions that I made that I can't take back. But my my son hasn't made those decisions, right? Praise God. I mean, he's 10. And like we had the sex talk the other day, and he's like, I don't even know what you're talking about. Like, what is that? That's weird. Why are you talking why are you talking to me about this, man? What's wrong with you? That you do what? What the heck? So, but I'm like, praise God that you don't know what that is. Because when I was your age, I did know what it was. Yeah, you see what I'm saying? And so what the reason I'm saying this is because I think if we're gonna, if, if, what if we took these junior hires and high schoolers who are yet to be defiled by the nonsense or yet to be corrupted by social media, and we said, yo, let's get your time, time, attention focused on the things of God and growing in what he's called you to, and let's let that be the thing that has your affection and attention, not social media or whatever else. And let's see what God can use you to do because you're on fire for him instead of on fire for Instagram or TikTok or whatever other nonsense there is out there. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, you're just we're just not creating avenues for those types of things to happen. It's like, yeah, be distracted by your phone. Yeah, be on be on, yeah, do all that stuff that kids do.
SPEAKER_03:You bring up uh social media, which I think is a really interesting kind of overlay to all of this or context, all of this, maybe would be a better word, but um like students are so uh stimulated and so like entertained all the time right now. Do you find that when students walk through the doors of your church that you're having to push back against like a consumerist kind of nature in order to get them to a place where they want to hop in? Or do you feel like they walk in like looking for something different and they're rare and ready to go?
SPEAKER_00:Um that's a good question. I think where I'm at it varies. So I think some days they're down to hop in and other days they're not interested. I think it can depend on many things for varying reasons. Um I think it's our job to like navigate that and continue to cur encourage them. Like I give you an example, like one time there's a there's a student who has a ton of gifts, and he walks in and he's just like hella moody, right? And I'm like, yo, you good? He's like, Yeah, yeah. And obviously he's not, right? Yeah, and he's like, I can tell, like, you're not gonna engage today, and it's all good. But I'm like, yo, it's obvious, it's obvious that you aren't good today. It would be better for you just to say, I'm not good, leave me alone. So then he says, Hey, I this we say it's like all right, I'm not I'm not in a good spot right now, leave me be. Okay, cool, got you. Appreciate you being honest. But what am I doing? I'm moving him, I'm moving him towards a different way of thinking about things. I'm moving him towards a situation where he recognizes he can come into the church and be who he is that day, what's going on with him, he can express it and maybe he can get to the point where we can have a conversation about it, which is ultimately more of what we want, right? And so, like, I want our youth spaces to be, or our youth space in particular, to be a place where these kids can come with whatever they're feeling on that day, whatever they're struggling with, whatever they're wrestling with, and it be a space where they can express those things. If it derails conversation, if it takes us away from the thing that I had planned, so be it. That's where we need to go. That's where we need to go. That's what we need to dive into. That's what we need to dive into. If that's what the Lord has for us that day, so be it. I'm cool with it. Um, but once again, I want it to be more a space where they can come and figure stuff out, come and share stuff, come and express stuff and have biblical truth speaking into them spoken into them as a consequence. And so I think it but it varies. Like some days they come in and they'll they're wanting to serve, wanting to contribute, wanting to, you know, help clean up after service, wanting to tear stuff down, wanting to contribute. And other days, like, you know, they're trying to get on get in the car as soon as mom shows up, you know, they're on their phone the whole time. And they're not trying to get for because they're not trying to engage.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But when I think about it, I'm like, am I any different? I'm not. You know what I'm saying? When when when when I don't want to talk to my wife, do I get on my phone and act like I'm busy, or stare at the TV, or read a book, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Or just work later so we don't have to talk. You know what I mean? Like, I I'm guilty of the same things. It's just I get I get you know mad at them in ways that I really shouldn't. Like I'm expecting them to be better than me.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. It's kind of crazy. But I think even what you're talking about and like giving them language to like giving them a way to even acknowledge what they are feeling rather than feel like, hey, I've got to put on the mask or whatever is is a big deal too. So um we are going to start the process of landing this plane. And I know that Corey is a very thoughtful person, so I want to make sure that I give him plenty of leeway in case he has anything else he wants to ask or say. Um so I just want you to know we're headed. The flaps are flapping. But the wheels are the wheels like the the wheels don't have to be down yet. So um I'm curious if uh you were talking about intergenerational ministry. We did get off that was my fault that we got off on a little tangent there, but um you talk about intergenerational ministry and kind of the fruitfulness of that. Um we know how it has the ability to impact um students, obviously, and we alluded to earlier how it has the ability to impact uh some of the older generations in the church as well. Um do you have and and I know I'm putting you on the spot here, but how like how has that played out as well in in your church? Like what benefit not to the students but to everyone else do you feel like it has to have the students running cameras, worshiping in main session with everybody else, singing on stage, preaching a sermon in youth group? How does that how does that help everybody else too?
SPEAKER_00:I think it uh it reminds us of what's important, which is legacy. What are we passing on? Because all of us are gonna die. And so what are we what are we passing on to those that are coming after us? I think it also gives us a sense of comfort that like, hey, God is still on the move. He's still at working, young people. It's the interesting thing is you always this happens with every generation, right? Like as they start to fade off, as their life starts to sunset, the world is ending. And then more specifically, Christians are like, the world is ending, Jesus is about to come back. And it's like, well, it's like no, you're just dying. Yeah, exactly. What it more is is the world is ending as you know it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just that you've you've got real ethnocentric with your Christianity, and so you're assuming that because you're dying, Jesus is coming back, like nope. And you're assuming that because the world is changing, everything's evil, and it's like, well, nope. It's just everything shifted. And so when you see young people that are worshiping God in a context that you feel like is completely evil because you don't understand it, I think it gives you hope that, like, okay, like this thing isn't beyond repair, and God's still doing his thing in the same way that he did his thing in me when I was a 15-year-old or when I was 12 or when I was 20, right? And so I think it it it uh it encourages, I think it comforts, I think it reminds us of what's important. What are we passing on to the people that are gonna come after us and continue to lead this thing? Um, I think it's it's really important for us to see that and acknowledge that. And also to be reminded too, like, yo, God don't need us.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah, he invites us, man. He invites us into it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he don't need us.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:He he wants us and he invites us into it, but you can use whoever, whenever, however.
SPEAKER_04:Man, I'm curious, you know, as we talk about this and we see how students are being able to be at your church, and maybe there's other stories, people listening to this right now, like, hey, I yes, we have that going on right now. Or maybe there's people like, man, I wish this was happening in our community at our church. Off the top of your mind, Jordan, is there just like a a story, really quickly, that you can share that you've seen from students who have jumped all in serving in the four walls of your church, who that's like been a ripple effect as they've gone beyond the four walls in serving the community.
SPEAKER_03:Corey is our number one story guy at CIY. Yeah, he is not satisfied with like this is how things usually work. He's like, I need I need a name.
SPEAKER_04:I'm just wow. You know, just like if there's something like that you can think off the top of your head.
SPEAKER_00:I think, yeah, I think something that comes to mind is like one of our students, he's a pretty he's a pretty event, he's pretty evangelistic in nature. Like he's willing to have conversations, he's willing to invite people to church, friends who are believers, friends who are not. Um, so a really cool one was um we did a we did an event a couple months ago, and he he had been inviting a friend and invited a friend, and that friend finally came. Um, and as that friend pulled up, um got dropped off by mom, and mom was crying. And the reason mom was crying was because that individual never leaves home because when they were younger, they were shot in a drive-by shooting. And so it was just really cool, you know, this young man in our ministry who is being bold enough to have conversations and invite friends. Um, and obviously he's not doing it perfectly, you know, but he's doing it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um has this friend come who basically doesn't leave home other than going to school. And the mom, you know, is in tears because they finally showed up to something. So um moments like that make youth ministry worth it, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_04:That's powerful, man. Thanks for sharing that.
SPEAKER_03:That is really cool.
SPEAKER_04:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:Um, Jordan, I think you're the best, man. I think you crush it at everything you do. Appreciate you being here with us. I wish. Um, you crushed it at this at least. So uh thanks, man. Yeah, we we loved having you. Thanks. Keep out the good work. We appreciate you, bro. Appreciate it. Thank you. Corey, before we go, I told you that you would have a chance to add somebody to our beautiful cork board here. That is great. So I'm gonna give you this pin. Okay, and I want you to tell us who you picked and why they're the best person in the world right now.
SPEAKER_04:Well, let me tell you, this guy, he's great. He lives in Indianapolis and he's uh works at the creek. His name is Will Wright. Will, if you're watching, hello. Um he is the pre-team pastor at the creek in South. And they just launched this year in 2025 their pre-teen pastry and crushing it and loving it. And and we're excited also Stuart's gonna be there as one of our events at Indianapolis, this upcoming tour. And so, Will, you look very happy in this photo. If you're listening, you should watch the video on YouTube. Um he's pointing up at a sign, I think, or to God, I don't know. But sorry, this mic's in my way. Will, you are great. Keep doing kingdom work. What you're doing for Pre-Toom Ministry is so fun, it blesses my heart. And many others. So that is Will. Right.
SPEAKER_03:Will thank you for what you do at the Creek. Appreciate it. Also, special thanks to Jordan and to Corey for joining me today. Today's episode was produced by Michael Hester, Lauren Bryan, and myself. Two weeks from now, we will have part one of our conversation about buying versus writing. Uh curriculum we're gonna talk to Ann Wilson about why she prefers fun fact. Buy her curriculum. There you go. If you don't want to miss that, be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll see you next time.