Beyond the Event: A Youth Ministry Podcast

BTE 5.10 Tried and True Programming vs. Something New: Part 1 with Jon Lee and Padon Murdock

• Christ In Youth • Season 5 • Episode 10

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Big rooms light up when students feel seen, safe, and invited to play a real part—on stage, on screen, and in their small groups. We open with CIY’s interactive team and how they’re hijacking Unreal Engine to turn LED walls into living sets, sync visuals with stage moments, and run games that respond to what’s actually happening in the room. It’s not spectacle for spectacle’s sake; it’s a toolkit that supports hosts, speakers, and students with genuine interaction and cohesive storytelling.

Then we shift to Jon Lee of Northeast Christian Church, who lays out a compelling case for “tried and true” youth ministry. His team runs a clear weekly rhythm—large group teaching and worship followed by grade-and-gender small groups—because predictability lowers anxiety, makes invitations easier, and creates the safety students need for honest talk. The creativity doesn’t vanish; it moves to retreats, camps, and mission trips where novelty can breathe without disrupting trust. Jon also shares Northeast’s values language—belong before you believe, groups are where you grow, saved people serve people—and how repeating it across spaces turns identity into action, with a majority of students serving beyond student ministry.

We dig into when to change models and “kill old dinosaurs,” including Northeast’s post-COVID decision to integrate high schoolers more deeply into the broader church so college transitions feel natural. You’ll hear practical ideas for first Wednesdays, middle school micro-teaching and table conversations, leadership pipelines that let high schoolers facilitate, and annual goal reviews that keep teams aligned. We also swap resources shaping their approach: Canoeing the Mountains, Working Genius, and the habit of learning from other churches instead of leading in a silo.

If you’re ready to reduce friction, deepen engagement, and place creativity where it has the most impact, this conversation will sharpen your calendar and your culture.

SPEAKER_03:

Hi, I'm Brad Warren. This is Beyond the Event, a Youth Ministry podcast presented by Christ and Youth, where we help you maintain momentum between the mountaintops. Today we are going to be talking with a great dude, John Lee. He is the executive pastor of Family Ministries at Northeast Christian Church in the greatest city in the world, Louisville, Kentucky. It's a delightful conversation about why they kind of have a template that they stick to for their student ministry programming. Before we talk to John, though, we are going to talk to a man whose job title I do not know. Payden Murdoch. What is your job title?

SPEAKER_02:

My job title is 3D designer. That's crazy. Confuses everybody.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, no, it's it's crazy because like I've been attending I've been attending CIY events since 2004 or something. Like I think I went to my first move in 2004. And if you had gone back to Milligan College, Orley University, and sat next to 14-year-old Brad at Move and said, Hey, someday CI is gonna hire a guy to create three-dimensional experiences.

SPEAKER_02:

And you're like, Shrek just came out.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, honestly. Like it's crazy that we have that 3D designer. Okay. So you are on a team that we have referenced on this podcast before. We've talked about the five families of the five families of content. Uh, that was my best Marlon Brando. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02:

That was really good. The five families of content. Yeah. You actually get closer to the mic, I think, for that actually.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Okay. Um, they are uh creative programming, film, design, uh, production. We have talked to people from all four of those departments on this podcast. The fifth, not the fifth family in order of importance, but the fifth that I'm naming in this list right now is interactive.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_03:

Peyton is on the interactive team. Um, a lot of people hear that and they think, what?

SPEAKER_02:

That's exactly what I'm saying. I would like to pose that question to you.

SPEAKER_03:

What?

SPEAKER_02:

Wait, what? Yes. So the interactive team. Uh, we are a team formed of um some software people, some uh After Effects people, and uh myself, who's sort of an animator type person. Um, and we make a lot of uh different things for our program. Um a lot of weird What is the After Effects? That's uh uh just a program. Okay, that we use.

SPEAKER_03:

Good, good, good. Um I supposed to know. I don't know. Maybe maybe here's what I will say. I've had a lot of people that work with us sit in that seat right there where you're sitting, and I have never felt less informed about somebody's job. Just because like uh truly, like what you do is just like so on another planet to me that I just don't even I can't I don't even know what to ask you. Why is it here here we'll start here? Why is it important to CIY that we have an interactive department?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Um well kids like to have fun. What? I don't know if you know this. Um, and so at the uh heart of our a lot of our events um are our games or um after our sessions our response elements, um, which are um both important aspects of our job on the interactive team. Um we we try to uh engage uh the students in ways that um they're maybe not used to um quite being engaged uh maybe in their hometown or at their church. And so we try to give them uh um some new experiences, some new ways to relate to what's being taught on stage, or just get them up and out of their chair and get the energy going.

SPEAKER_03:

And so a lot of traditional like church experiences are students being talked at a lot. And we do have that. I mean there there's uh there's a place for that. It's not like you know, you're never gonna hear another sermon at a at a CIY event, that would be crazy. Um but we do dedicate a lot of resources to making sure that students are able to actually participate in what's happening in the big room and move and not just uh not just what am I trying to say, Michael? I don't know what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm not sure. I think I lost track as soon as you lost track.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Well words are hard. Words are hard. So tell me some of the things that you guys are working on, like right now. Which, by the way, we're I don't know when this episode is coming out. We're recording this um in the middle of January. So our first superstar events launched this weekend. So you're probably not working on any superstard stuff because that's been done for a while. It is out the door, right? So, what right now are you guys like thinking about?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So um one thing that we've been incorporating a lot into our events is this program called Unreal Engine, which is like this uh live production, it's almost like a game engine that we've kind of hijacked in terms of our key visuals.

SPEAKER_03:

People use Unreal Engine to make video games. Yes, right, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

Um and so why is that a good tool for us? Sorry, I'm gonna interrupt you. Absolutely. So um it's okay. Um we're interacting. So keeping it. This is the key. This is this is the key. Um so um it's a very versatile tool. Um it allows us to um build games inside of, it allows us to utilize it for background visuals, or um we can bring video in and out of it. So it makes it a very um kind of central tool for our production team. Um it makes it easy and compact to put a lot of different parts of our program into it and and have it live there.

SPEAKER_03:

And then they can sit at front of house and create experiences basically. What you've put into Unreal Engine. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_02:

So the core uh the core idea behind it is kind of simplifying some of our um design and simplifying some of our um the location of a lot of our content so that it makes it easier for our production people to to utilize it and allows us to have a little bit more control over some of our.

SPEAKER_03:

So give me an example from the past. Yes. Of like how Unreal Engine and some of the things that your team created have been used, maybe at Move or Mix last year or even Superstart a full year ago. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. So this is the first year we're touring with it for Move and Mix, which is summer events. Um this will be the second year we've toured with it for Superstart. Okay. So um, if any of your listeners attended um Superstart Shaped, um they would see the the set for that program was all designed inside of Unreal Engine, and it allowed us to uh do a lot of fun things. Like we had some animations play in the background, and um, what was really cool is that um we were able to connect some of our stage pieces to our background set and kind of trigger them all at once.

SPEAKER_03:

So there was like a lighting rig. Yes. On the screen that looked like that looked like lights.

SPEAKER_02:

Was supposed to look like real life. Yeah. So it kind of all melded together and um it allowed us to kind of come behind some of the more fun moments of the program. Like um, we had this like spaghetti wig design game, and we had like this spaghetti animation on screen behind them. It was really fun. That is fun.

SPEAKER_03:

I remember seeing that set um for the first this is not a joke. I am not kidding you. I remember walking down to the warehouse and seeing that set for the first time, and they had like set it up and we're kind of showcasing it for everybody so the lighting was right, you know, like the lights in the warehouse were it looked like it would look on a stage. And I was like, why are we hanging paper airplanes from our like that just seems so annoying that we're gonna have to do that at every single stop? And Patrick Snow was like, hey, buddy, they're not that's on the screen.

SPEAKER_04:

No, those paper airplanes were real, and they were they were just a pain in my side.

SPEAKER_03:

They don't travel well.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, they don't we had to we had to fold new ones every single time. Somebody had to get up in a lift and find somewhere to tie it off to.

SPEAKER_02:

Got really good at making paper airplanes by the end of that.

SPEAKER_03:

Which is crazy because it does, I mean, it just looks like it looks like part of the set. And that's the goal, I guess.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. And it's about kind of bringing students into the the whole experience and um just giving us a cool tool to make something really fun that engages them in a um a way that kind of elevates the experience.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. So are you able to people who went to Superstart last year, people who maybe even listen to this after going to Superstart this year will have um experienced this platform. People who are gonna go to Move and Mix this summer, but maybe have not. If they didn't go to Superstart. What are you able to give us a little pre peek behind the curtain of like what they might expect to see that you guys have been working on?

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. So this um this year we are bringing back um an old tour, uh, one we did 10 years ago called Kingdom Worker. So that's kind of the theme for CIY this year, reboots with uh Superstar with Mysterious Truth and The Summer with Kingdom Worker. And so for um both Move and Mix, we have kind of a virtual um set that's gonna come behind um both of the experiences. They're both very different. Um sorry, I just bumped my mic. Sorry, Michael. No, you're good. Um so move uh is kind of this gallery uh design scheme. So lots of like picture frames, and inside of the picture frames, we kind of go to different worlds for different parts of our program. Um and uh on top of that, we have this imagery with the um the butterfly that we used from um our last Kingdom Worker tour. And so we have um some really cool um visuals to try to incorporate that theme that we're kind of tying into the program. Um we're we're kind of easing into the usage of of Unreal Engine again this year, um just because uh we're trying to get our team kind of used to using the new technology.

SPEAKER_03:

It's a big deal, right? It's not like oh, I used to use ProPresenter, and so now I'll be able to use Unreal Engine.

SPEAKER_02:

It's like it's a lot of training, it's a lot of um, yeah, getting getting some contractors used to um using some tech they they maybe aren't super familiar with. Yeah. Um so we're kind of trying to implement some of that um as well, just get our team used to it. Um and uh from mix, we're in um this kind of um musical world. So um the backdrop for that is is this like uh rock band arena. So I don't want to give too much away, but yeah, no, that's great. But it's fun to think about we're gonna have some um games that are incorporated alongside our visuals that keep us in that rock band world. Um, some cool um interactive games for our students that they're gonna play.

SPEAKER_03:

So yeah, so for a long time, I mean we've been using LED wall for a long time. Um and that at Move and Mix has exclusively been used as basically like a backdrop for what's happening, and then anything that would be considered part of the set was all practical. So like I'm thinking back to um broadcast and we had like the cool backdrop and it looked great with the LED wall, but like the trees were like actual wooden trees that we had to put up on the stage and all that kind of stuff. So what you're talking about is instead of just like this screen being kind of like a static backdrop for the program, it becomes part of the set.

SPEAKER_02:

Like it becomes a digital part of it, yeah. And and you know, the purpose of it isn't necessarily to get away from those things, like our practical sets, but kind of coming behind it, just giving us a new tool. Um that's just like depth and yeah, give us some live interaction. Um, I mean, it's a game engine, so it's it's kind of cool. It gives us the ability to um have um all different types of ways to control it or or incorporate um because I'm gonna be honest with you guys, a lot of our games up until this point have just been straight rigged.

SPEAKER_03:

How's that for a people?

SPEAKER_02:

They were onto us, they were onto us people knew. Brad tells all.

SPEAKER_04:

That's not entirely true.

SPEAKER_03:

It's not entirely untrue.

SPEAKER_04:

It's not entirely untrue.

SPEAKER_03:

That is that is correct.

SPEAKER_04:

We have to cut that out.

SPEAKER_03:

No, we don't because it's cool. It's cool that like we now have technology where someone can sit back in front of house, follow along with what's going on on stage, and have really, really genuine interaction. I keep trying like not to use that word for some reason, because I don't want to overuse it, I guess, but really genuine interaction with uh what's happening.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's that's kind of it, isn't it? It's just kind of bringing them into what's happening live. Um and that's that's the real challenge of of a live event. Um, and the real beauty of some of the tools we're using is is how do we make these visuals, how do we make these um games or these controllers, how do they come behind the humans who are using them? So our speakers, our hosts, our students, um, how do we create cool tools that they can interact with live that help come behind that experience and kind of weave into our themes and um cracks open like a whole new egg that I want to what time is it? Uh what came first, the crack or the egg?

SPEAKER_03:

I don't know. I don't know. My progressive bill is ready. Um Lord. Shouldn't have to move. That opens up a new shit. That's a whole thing. Um so uh speakers. Like, are we gonna communicate with our speakers like, hey, these tools are available to you? And they could like is that a thing?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, some of them. Um we have uh yeah, a couple of stories that involve um visuals that come come behind like a live speaker, and so that'll be kind of part of the training um for some of our directors or hosts. Um, we'll kind of give them the tool. I'm gonna have to do that. Yeah. Oh gosh. You're gonna have to do it. That made me sick to my stomach all of a sudden. Yeah, buddy boy. It's getting real. Uh okay. Here we go. It's gonna be okay. We live in the future. I'll be here the whole time.

SPEAKER_03:

We live in the future. You will be here in Joplin, Missouri. I will be in Boca Raton, Florida, floundering around like an idiot.

SPEAKER_02:

It's all right, I'm always one FaceTime away.

SPEAKER_03:

That's true. So uh might have to take advantage of that. All right. Um, what is like this is just a little bit self-indulgent for me, but like what's your favorite part about your job?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh man, there's a lot. Um I don't know what you do every day. You know, it's new every day. Um, probably my coworkers. If I can get real corny about it.

SPEAKER_03:

If I I mean it's it's the right answer.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

It's the right answer. I think so.

SPEAKER_02:

It's a great group of human beings. It's a wonderful place to work. It's it's it's it's fun getting to come to work and do creative stuff with people who are very passionate about the Lord. It's a great culture. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

It is a great culture. I cannot possibly think of a better way to end our time together, our conversation. Um, thank you for educating me about all of this and instilling just like a fresh sense of anxiety about the summer. You're welcome for me. I'm I'm looking forward too comfortable with that for the next four months. Uh no, it's gonna be great. Peyton, you rock, thanks for being here. We're gonna go talk. Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, this is two episodes in a row. Did we almost skip Mike D? We almost skipped Mike Dub. Oh man. This is what we're doing.

SPEAKER_04:

And what's funny, what's funny is the episode that we recorded yesterday, which is coming out two weeks from this episode, uh I was going to do and then we decided we decided to actually move it to this episode. Oh man. Yeah. Um I'm so excited. So, you know, we're in 2026, 2025 just wrapped up. And um something that I think the three of us have in common, although Brad and I share in this um interest a lot more actively, more regularly than Peyton, you and I get to. Um, but all three of us I think have in common is that we uh love movies. I do. I love movies.

SPEAKER_03:

Um love getting to go to movie theaters. Follow me on Letterboxd.

SPEAKER_02:

I just went to see the new Anaconda last night.

SPEAKER_03:

That cannot have possibly been good.

SPEAKER_02:

It was awesome. It was really good. It was good. I thought it was really good. That might disqualify me from ironically. Like it was unironically good. Unironically, one of the better movies I've seen in a while.

SPEAKER_04:

It's not what I've heard before, but everyone is allowed to have their own opinion. Yeah. That I'm not and I'm very messing. You know what? I'm not gonna be the I'm not gonna be the guy that's like everyone is entitled to be wrong or whatever. That's dumb. You know, it's not nice. Anyway, not what we're talking about. Yeah. Also, for the listener, I apologize. I've I've got a post-flu cough. Um, listener or viewer, I guess, but no one's viewing me. Let's hear that cough, baby.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, there it is.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, yeah, it's there, baby. Uh so God. I've been I've been doing my best, but you know, anyway, here's what I here's what I want to talk about. Um I have been reflecting on um the year that we just had in movies. Um, I honestly really felt like 2025 was a great year for movies. Um but one of the things that I felt like was a a bit of a common thread that I saw more of in 2025 than in previous years. It felt to me like 2025 was the year for complicated characters. Yeah. There were a lot of characters that were not just good or not just bad. Yeah. They were people who had their own like motivations and experiences. They were people and they were in situations where they had to make decisions. Like Jack Black and Anaconda. Like Jack Black and Anaconda. He is a star. A complicated star. I think it did. And it made like an eternity ago. So much money. It did. It saved cinema. Single hanger work. Total cinema baby. Um anyway, some some examples. Uh by the way, these are not like CIY endorsements of these. Uh movies. These are movies that Michael Hester went to go see this year. Some examples of complicated characters. We have I'm forgetting his name off the top of my head, but Leonardo DiCaprio's character in One Battle After Another. Yeah, very much. A complicated character. Troubled. What troubled? One who participates in activities that I would not write. Is his name? I think that's yes, I think so for most of the movie.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Not a complicated name.

SPEAKER_04:

Not a complicated name. But he finds himself in a very complicated situation where he really just wants to reunite with his daughter and just has to make a lot of decisions along the way. That are just complicated things to have to have to deal with. But for an uncomplicated goal. But for big kids. It all comes back to finding Nemo eventually. It really does. Yeah. Marty Mauser. Marty Mauser from Marty Supreme.

SPEAKER_02:

Did you see Marty Supreme? I have not seen it yet.

SPEAKER_04:

Listen, here's my honest opinion. As a person, that guy sucks. Can I say that on the podcast? Sure. Okay. I just did. Yeah. Like he's just like, he's not a good guy. He makes a lot of decisions that are not good decisions, but he also is relatable in the fact that he has a goal that he wants to achieve and he makes the decisions that he feels like he needs to make in order to get to that goal. Yeah. But I but like as a person, I'm like, not a good guy. I don't know if everyone agrees with me, but I agree with me when I say that. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03:

Would you consider Ann Gladys and Weapons a complicated character? You know what?

unknown:

No.

SPEAKER_04:

No.

SPEAKER_03:

No, she just sucks. But honestly, Julia, what's her name? Julia Garner? Julia Garner.

SPEAKER_04:

Is that correct?

SPEAKER_03:

That is I yes. You want to you're thinking that you're saying Jennifer Garner and you're not. You're so you're so right. It's Julia Garner, and it is correct. Yeah. And you know what?

SPEAKER_04:

Julia is my preferred Garner. Personally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Jennifer Garner makes like food with not a lot of ingredients for kids, though. So that's cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. But yes, her character, complicated. She cares about the kids in her class.

SPEAKER_03:

But also she's an alcoholic.

SPEAKER_04:

Also, she's an alcoholic, you know, influences people in directions that they probably shouldn't go.

SPEAKER_03:

Um is there a question here, or we just talk about it.

SPEAKER_04:

So here's the question, here's the question that I do want to pose. Is there a complicated character, it doesn't have to be from 2025, that you guys either say that you resonate with, or you're just like, I really like this character because of the the depth that they were written with. I'm gonna open my letterbox.

SPEAKER_02:

And you said it has to be from 2025? No, no, it doesn't have to be.

SPEAKER_04:

For me, it's probably Thanos. Uh complicated character that I resonate with. And it doesn't have to be that you resonate with. Just even one that you're like, I just love the way that this character was written. Oh, I've got a good one.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

I got a good one.

SPEAKER_02:

Hit me with it.

SPEAKER_03:

You don't want to go first?

SPEAKER_02:

I can if you'd like me to.

SPEAKER_03:

I'll go first. Lewin Davis. Who is that? From Inside Lewin Davis.

SPEAKER_04:

I don't think I've seen that.

SPEAKER_03:

Inside Lewin Davis is a Cohen Brothers movie, and it's brilliant. Okay. It is about a struggling musician who you already broke the ice, so I'm gonna say it. He sucks. Uh and just kind of like his journey to try to achieve uh success in the music business. And like the idea that you can be really good at something and like give something a lot of effort, and it may or may not work out is just like a real thing. And great cat acting in inside Lumen Davis. Really good cat.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Cats are complicated creatures. I think they're very uncomplicated.

SPEAKER_02:

Really?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think they suck.

SPEAKER_04:

I honestly, this might be the first episode that we've said that word, and now we've said it. Yeah, but you broke the seal, and now it's really it's flowing.

SPEAKER_02:

I love it. I love it. CIY podcast after hours. This is great.

SPEAKER_03:

You get it.

SPEAKER_02:

Um man, a complicated.

SPEAKER_03:

Would you say that you resonate with Hannibal Lecter?

SPEAKER_02:

Ooh, is that the murderer?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, he eats people.

SPEAKER_02:

Ooh. Uh I would say I do not relate with that.

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, good.

SPEAKER_02:

Um are you just on your letterbox right now? Yeah. I'm looking through all my five stars. Um probably the mind flare from Stranger Things. That's a complicated character.

SPEAKER_03:

I see I'm I'm not, I don't you guys are gonna have to talk about this. I don't I have yet to understand.

SPEAKER_02:

You haven't seen Stranger Things?

SPEAKER_03:

No. I saw season one, but that's it.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh maybe the best season.

SPEAKER_02:

It's probably the best. I wish it was stopped after season one. Yeah. But I kept going.

SPEAKER_03:

The Mind Flare. So why though?

SPEAKER_02:

Because I still don't understand it.

SPEAKER_03:

What do you not understand? What did it want? You know what did it want? What was it here to do? Is the Mind Flare the thing that looks like a flower? How did it short?

SPEAKER_04:

Oh no, you're thinking of a Demogorgan, actually. I am thinking of a Demogorgan, you're right. Yeah, that's right. The Mind Flare looked like a it's kind of like the cloud monster, like the smoke monster from Lost But with legs. Yeah. That's that's the first that's the first image that we get, really.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it kind of looks like a spider. Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

There you go.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh yeah. I'm still confused.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I get it. But he had like redeeming qualities.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I he didn't really have many qualities, but it was but um at least that I know of. No distinct qualities. But I know that there were should have been qualities.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

That's why I think it's complex. There you go. Was that a good answer, Michael?

SPEAKER_04:

We'll take I mean it's it's on the record. Oh, okay. It's an answer. Good answer or not. It's on the record. Um you know what? I uh I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna tie this up in a in a little bow by saying that maybe one of my favorite complicated characters um is actually John Locke from Lost, which I just which I just named a moment ago. I wasn't even thinking about it until I said the smoke monster. John Locke. John Locke. John Locke was a very complex character. Great television character. John Locke sucks.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, to some. I don't actually think that. I just had to say it.

SPEAKER_03:

You had to be one of the big part of what spoilers for the 2004 television show Lost, but he does suck, but it's not him.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. And he's, you know, early on in the show, especially, he's a man of faith. Sort of. Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Man of science, man of faith, one of the best episodes of the show.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

He's great. Very um I do have, thanks to Letterboxd um at B Warren 90, uh another uh movie that I want to talk about. Okay. Which is the movie Silence.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh yeah. Have you ever seen Martin Scorsese's silence? Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

You have?

SPEAKER_02:

A long time ago.

SPEAKER_03:

It is about uh two seventeenth century uh I think they're from Portugal. Portuguese uh priests.

SPEAKER_04:

Like Jesuit priests, right?

SPEAKER_03:

Jesuit priests who go to find their like mentor who um it's it's Andrew Garfield and Adam Driver play the two priests, and they're going to try to find um uh uh uh naked gun taken uh Leon Neeson. Uh they're going to try to find Leon Neeson, which you know he can't be found. Um and and he's also another complicated character. They're in Japan, they're going through Japan, and it just talks about like the persecution and what persecution does to faith. And it is like I watched it the other day and it really caused me to like think about things.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Like it's still sitting with me. I want to show it to my freshman guys. I texted all their parents and I'm like, hey, can I show your kids a rated R movie where a guy gets his head cut off? And most of them have been like, Yeah. So I mean, they all watched that's Stranger Things. Yeah, probably. So yeah. So because like it made me uh have to ask and answer very real questions about what faith is and like the role that it plays in your life. Good movie. Leave it to Square Easy, man.

SPEAKER_04:

The bow the bow is untied uh and and your mentioning of a of a movie about faith made me remember another movie about faith that I meant to mention and forgot. But the newest knives out movie, Wake Up Deadman, uh follows a follows a Catholic priest um who is honestly one of like one of my favorite, like um it's a pretty uncynical like portrayal of authentic Christian faith. Yeah, like one of my favorite written characters that plays that plays a priest or minister. There's a scene about halfway through the movie that like interrupts the pacing of the mystery, um, involving a phone call to a construction company. If you haven't seen the movie, I encourage you to watch the movie because this scene like brought me to tears. Yeah. No joke, no movie does that hardly ever.

SPEAKER_03:

Josh Josh O'Connor always like, yeah. I was I was you know, anytime you're a knockout performance, no pun intended. Like everybody knows that Martin Scorsese is Catholic, and so like he pr portrays faith in like a pretty authentic way and actually like wrestles with some things through the making of his movies. But like when I see like okay, Ryan Johnson's making a movie about a priest, I'm immediately like, oh boy, right? What bus are we gonna throw Christianity under? And it really doesn't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Like it's it's pretty He and he grew up in a like a Protestant um church. Yeah, but he's not a Christian. But he's not a Christian anymore. Yeah, but still the movie to me felt very honoring to Christianity. It was it was quite the surprise.

SPEAKER_03:

If not honoring, then at least like fair.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

unknown:

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04:

So back. Yeah, Christianity is so back. Christianity in cinema is so back, baby. So back. Oh my goodness. All right.

SPEAKER_03:

We probably gotta keep moving. That was a lot.

SPEAKER_02:

Um it's a great question, Michael.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you for hanging on. I mean, you could if I start talking about movies, it could just never end. So if we're we need to have a beyond you, maybe that's okay with you. We're gonna go talk to film realming the theater. Um tune in next on the off weeks. We're just gonna jump on and talk about movies. But uh instead of doing that, we are gonna go talk to John Lee, and he's the best, so stay tuned. Here we go. John Lee, thanks for being here. Coming, zooming in from my my favorite city in the world, Louisville, Kentucky. Actually, that's not true. My favorite city is Lexington, but I do I do love Louisville. Are you wait? Are you from there? Are you from Kentucky?

SPEAKER_00:

So no, born and raised, West Coast boy out in California until high school.

SPEAKER_04:

Way, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I can hear it in your and then in high school, we uh uprooted, uh, just had to family stuff, and we're we're in Louisville's home. Yeah. I've been here more of my my life than I was back in California, but still a piece of me there, man.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, totally. Louisville's a great city. People people do not like when you list great American cities, not like big American cities, but like what are the really good, cool places to visit that have a lot of like cultural stuff and are pretty and just fun. Louisville does not get enough credit.

SPEAKER_00:

Dude, if you love food, it's a great food city.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. It's a great wonderful food city. You can walk up and down uh what's it called? Bardstown Bardstown Road and go walk in anywhere and get food, and it'll be the best meal you've ever had in your life.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Absolutely. And it's it's from to the ends of the earth. I mean, you can literally have anything. World's best chocolate chip cookie. Okay. Please and thank you. Let's go.

SPEAKER_03:

Please and thank you. I am a huge fan. Ugh. Okay. We've got to stop. Um, this is indulgent, and it's making me sad that I'm not in Louisville. So um, you are in Louisville, Northeast Christian Church. Uh, you've been on staff at Northeast for a long time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep. Just celebrated 13 years.

SPEAKER_03:

13 years. Wow. Your career is going through puberty. What's that like?

SPEAKER_00:

It's uh it's a lot of those vocal changes, but it's good.

unknown:

It's good.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, just uh within the past couple years have kind of grown, can continue to grow your role into um this this uh executive pastor of next gen ministries. I guess that's been a few years now, but um we are excited to have you on to talk to you about um a topic that I am really interested in, which is when you're programming, are you trying to do new things or are you doing something that's like tried and true? And my personality, John, is I I I just got lunch. Here, this is the example. I just got lunch, went to a taco place called Ghetto Tacos here in Joplin. It's a wonderful taco taco shop. Um and at that taco shop I got what I always get because that's what I do is I find something that I like at every restaurant, and then I never order anything else ever again. And so my personality is like, hey, let's find something that works and then let's operate within those parameters. Um and I don't know why I'm that way. I haven't really interrogated that a lot. So maybe throughout the course of this conversation we'll get into that. But why um or what is it about Northeast in the context that you're in that you think makes this idea of kind of sticking to tried and true programming work for you guys?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. Um well, first and foremost, when you kind of toss this question my way, it it made me really sit down and think through why is there rhyme and reason to ministry? Um and I think what what it boils down to is just the word that I've talked about a lot in other contexts in my previous podcast with you guys, I talked about the word intentionality. And I think what has proved to be real about a tried and true method in ministry, you know, understanding the rhythms of a year and the content and the the phases of growth from middle to high school, that there is a rhyme and a reason to the developmental phase of a student and the faith that they walk through. And when we can capitalize on the styles of learning that kids are walking through to the practical application and have those rhythms that those students walk into and anticipate walking into. Um, then I hope I feel like we help set our students up to have better success as we launch them into college.

SPEAKER_03:

So that's actually really interesting. I'm wondering if your opinion on this or your passion for this has changed throughout your career as you've gone from like just student pastor to now this position from the time a child is born until they, I don't know when it ends, they graduate or they're done with young adulthood or whatever that may be. Um like has that has that shifted how you feel about this? Were were you willing to like take more risks and and try a bunch of new things when you were in student ministry, or has this always been kind of like your personality?

SPEAKER_00:

No, no. I mean, being real, a hundred percent it's it's taken on um with maturity, right? Like, is a 20-something year old out of college, um, we have no clue what we're doing. You know, we hope that we have a generous lead pastor that's willing to watch us make goofy mistakes and let us do the weirdest games on a Wednesday night. But it it happens through understanding how to contextualize for your audience. And again, I go back to the 20-year-old me, no clue what I was doing in ministry, wanted students to come because it was fun, and then with that fun appeal, help them learn about Jesus in some drastic way that allowed them to live a life that reflected that. Um, that's always the end goal in mind. We want students to emulate what Jesus did throughout the gospel and to live that out in their context. Where the shift really made it easiest, and this is a heart of empathy for every student pastor that that does a catch-all position of family ministries in a small church. It's really hard, uh, is a non-stop grind. Um, but where the where the turns tabled, if you will, I I moved into specifically middle school ministry. And it allowed me to focus in on, okay, I got these students for three years. What how am I walking them intentionally through a three-year plan that sets them up for success in our our high school ministry? And, you know, again, we've we've talked about like this idea of creating a pathway in a in a couple of different avenues, either for parents or for kids, but it allowed us as a team to strategize if if I want what's best for this kid, then we look all the way back down to the nursery and the the foundation that we're laying, and then each phase that we have those kids, and how we can do this with intentionality, with rhyme and reason and tried and true programming that catalyzes them for the next pasture.

SPEAKER_03:

So you mentioned context, which I think is important. Um, can we get in the weeds a little bit on sometimes I think that my temptation is to like be very general with this podcast so that everyone can kind of connect to it. But I've been challenged lately that there's actually a lot that we can learn from from specificity. So um I would love, if you are willing, to dive into your context and how you've like built this skeleton of programming that you guys have um to a point where where you have confidence in its ability to do kind of what you're saying. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So absolutely when you look at Northeast Christian Church, what do you see and how are you programming to that to that group of people?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. And I I don't want to undermine the approach of understanding Barna studies and how that has influenced um what drives our program as well. And that can be generalized to anyone in the country because they're doing this nationwide in their studies. Um and it's reflective of currently our student body. Um, Gen Z, Gen Alpha currently are um an appealing group who have an appetite to go deep. And so where it's really easy um in most contexts to uh pre-purchase everything, uh put programming as the you know least amount of time that we put effort into, and then just roll with the service and then spend time, quality time with students. Um, we have noticed that um for at least high school ministries, pre purchase stuff is not exactly where we need to be right now. Um for Northeast students, we've got a a group of kids who want to dive deep into the word, better underst and understand how to take the context of what was written. And apply it into today's context of Gen Z Gen Alpha. Um, I'd also argue that we already have a student body who is bought into a phrase that I've used in the past, um, that there's no such thing as a junior Holy Spirit. So we're equipping students right now to be unleashed in the context that God has given them, all unique, all God gifted, the spheres of influence that they have in the homework, city, and church, and to empower and equip them with what is needed to lead in those atmospheres. Um, and we do that through what what the word says. We don't shy away from it. We we speak boldly about the love and the truth, and we help students figure out what that looks like um in their own unique ways.

SPEAKER_03:

Um so what what are your programming like big rocks? I'll say I don't know if that language resonates with you. That that like it's like this is tried and true to use that language, like, and this is a part of who we are and why, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

For sure. So um we still believe in the large group, small group model. We think that there should still be a large appeal to students who uh want to be led by a pastor, by a lead speaker in some capacities that has spiritual authority. And that's a huge rock. We will we place emphasis on um on the pulpit in a way that students feel called to by that person. I see in you, one of those kind of statements. Um, and they call that out in the entire student body. Um, we believe that um it also creates an atmosphere and an opportunity to belong. Hence, one of our main um phrases we use, one of our main values is belong before you believe. So we want to create that atmosphere where it's that student body. Uh, you come here Wednesday nights, uh, we we jump into a large group, you know, 40-minute programmed um hour and a half, and then divvy out into small groups, where again, it's it's transforming the thought of what was just told and called out into me, and then figuring out how to practically apply that into my life, uh, whether that's me identifying that or the peers around me. Um, we still believe in gender grade specific. I think there's a time and place for intermingling those, but I think for true vulnerability and again, phrases we use, open and honest conversations that takes place where we help remove barriers for students to be able to do that. Um, and that takes place through our school year. Uh we know that summer begins to be a little bit chaotic. So we help um empower and challenge our leaders to be present September through May. We give those leaders a break and do kind of a call to action for that entire body to be present a handful of times through the summer. Um, and we've talked about this in the past, but it's important to me to call out those students who feel like um the opportunity for ministry, um, whether they're vocationally um minded or if they just have an interest in preaching, um, that our entire student body uh in middle and high school will take over some of those Wednesday nights or Sunday morning program for middle school right now that they get to speak life into. They they preach, they share their testimony, um, and they do it in front of their peers. Uh and it's beautiful. It's awesome. It's not just bereavement for my high school pastor by any means. There's so much more work that goes into helping coach a student up to be in a teaching caliber that we would want and expect. Um, but it it buys um, it gives our students buy-in into what we do, you know?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um yeah, that's what I got to say.

SPEAKER_03:

I love it. So do you feel like um with this generation or these generations, I guess if we're talking about um Gen who are we on? Gen Z and Gen Alpha. Um is does does having uh something to expect or like knowing what to expect out of an experience to speak to them or resonate with them? Do you think they care? Do you think they get bored of the format? Do you think that they like what do you think their reaction to to this idea of I know that on Wednesday nights during the school year, we're gonna go, we're gonna do this, or Sunday nights, I don't know when you guys do it, um, and that we're gonna get the summers off and we're gonna have these opportunities to interact with our leaders. Like, is that um helpful? Does that ease anxiety? Does that uh create boredom? Like generally, where do you find that they're kind of like feeling and thinking about all of this?

SPEAKER_00:

You hit the nail on the head there, and I can't emphasize it enough. And I think I underappreciated it when I again was beginning in my early 20s by playing games that I didn't realize brought more discomfort to the group than it did, uh than not. And and um I I think if I'm the only one that's talking about anxiety with students right now, then holy smokes, we got something weird in the water in the global right now.

SPEAKER_03:

You're not, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But with anxiety being something that we can in our programming control, if you will, um appealing to that, it it should be um extremely enticing for any pastor right now. And you can create familiarity, especially for the student who doesn't know, um, doesn't know anybody there, doesn't know kind of what to expect, but has an understanding, okay, I I can expect to do that again. Um, and that didn't make me feel too uncomfortable. Then I think that's a win. Why wouldn't you? Yeah, you know. Um I I also feel, you know, not just with an anxiety inside of that, but when you create familiarity for your student body currently, you create an expectation of what they can expect. It's easier to invite people. Yeah. And we have a rhythm inside of our um our small groups. Um, and honestly, every month of the year we call first Wednesdays. Again, no new revelation. I think many, many churches are doing things similarly. Uh, but it that is the one Wednesday we continue to point our current student body to be the most friendly Wednesday to bring a new student. Where again in tried and true programming, we're gonna have a gospel presentation shocker. We're gonna help present a um unapologetic version of the gospel, but palatable for somebody who's new or might not know or have questions coming out of that. Um, it creates space for that expectation, you know, for the for the current and for the new to know what to what to the what they're walking into. They're themed, they're fun. You know, we create energy around them. So kids want to come to a March Madness dunk fest and get a free trip to camp with the best dunk. Like it's awesome. It's so much fun. But those are the things that you're inviting your friends to.

SPEAKER_03:

Is it like a six-foot rim so that I can be a part of it?

SPEAKER_00:

Or let's just say we do bring out a baby rim for that.

SPEAKER_03:

It's pretty phenomenal. It's amazing. Um yeah, no, I think that's I think that's really interesting that like we tell kids that we want youth group to be like a safe place for them to experience genuine Christian community and for somebody who attends Northeast Christian Church to be able to communicate to somebody who doesn't, like, hey, come with me. Here's exactly what you're gonna experience. Like just having that knowledge of like, okay, I know what I'm walking into could be really helpful. Um do you feel like and I I want to kind of honestly build on the the March Madness dunk contest thing a little bit and cause because what I was gonna ask you was where are the outlets for creativity here? Like where where does your team get to play? Where do they get to flex those creative muscles? Where do they get to have fun if they're not spending their time dreaming about like what could we try? What could we, you know, absolutely? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So here's the beauty in all of this. Um, the tried and true programming sticks really close to Wednesday programming. There's nuance in that and the fact that we can shift service orders around, uh, but for the primary experience, like you you know what to expect on a Wednesday. I would I would encourage every other youth leader, youth pastor that is sitting in that position of authority to kind of curate their calendar. What are the other big rocks that don't move? And what are what of those rocks are do we have freedom um to breathe into different experiences? So uh on a calendar year for us, uh January 1 hits, uh, we're in full prep mode, have been in some advertising mode for our late winter retreat that we do at the beginning of March. Our winter retreat is a perfect example for when some of the really fun, creative um experiences that can come in for student games or or any of those things to tie the body uh together. Um, but even in programming through some of the experiences that they get to to walk through. Um, you know, I I don't have one off the top of my head, but everybody did it. It was the cheesy, you know, like the flash paper on fire, your sin's gone kind of thing. You know, like those kinds of elements we can weave into because we're afforded the time.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, and like you're going you're going to camp. So it's like a student inherently is already in the like this is something different headspace. You know, you're not you're not you're not fighting against expectations as much.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep. So like sales pitch, like, hey, anybody doesn't go to CIY camps, come to CIY camps, because you you get to you said it, not me. Okay. You embed yourself in those elements. You don't have to think through them. So you get to experience them for the first time with your student. How cool is that? Like, um, you know, just this past year with the batan baton uh passing. Oh my gosh, like what an amazing, uh, intimate moment with students who are saying yes to vocational ministry. Holy smokes! So those are elements that sometimes in the way we've positioned ourselves, we are not affording ourselves to do those things, but in other outlets, we get to feel the weight of those um in beautiful ways. Our middle school, we historically always just do a fall retreat. So we'll have a fall retreat for middle school, we got a winter retreat for high school, and then summer camps and mission trips in the summer. And after that, I mean we're booked. You know, we've got all the regular programming and all the weekend and week out stuff and training and yada.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Um so at Northeast, uh and you guys every time I'm there, it I I feel like you I end up having like a wonderful conversation with you about just like the philosophy of Northeast. And one of the things I love about you guys is um that you put language to uh everything and you know how you talk about things. Not just you, John Lee, but like your staff understands like we can we can talk about, like we can list off these core principles that that we're focused on in student ministry, and this is the way that we talk about um our programming, this is the way that we talk about the gospel, you know, and um I think that kind of parlays into this conversation a little bit about uh tried and true and just uh cre creates a little bit of consistency at a I'm gonna call it a large church, uh a large church so that um no matter who a student talks to, their experience in terms of like the the information that they're given is uh standardized. Um tell me about some wins from from that piece of it.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, I go back to the first word I use today, and it's intentionality. For every pastor who's listening, your words matter and they direct and guide students either closer or further away from Jesus. So if we posture ourselves in a way that understands the weight of our words, whether it be from the pulpit, the private conversation, or our identity through our words, um, there's power in that. We we begin to believe that, then we can move, we move mountains. I believe that wholeheartedly. Where we've seen the fruit in that with our student body, I I could pull, I don't know, 100 students and probably 90%, if not more, would understand that our three values are belong before you believe. Groups are where you grow and save people, serve people. It it's it's who we are, it's what we say from the stage. It it helps students understand that they got skin in the game. Like this, if I'm gonna be a Northeast student, this is who I say I'm gonna be. And it's not that I don't want them to be a student of any other church, but we got something unique going on here, and I want you to align with what we got going on because that's how we're gonna move in our schools. That's how we're gonna move in our sports clubs, or that's how we're gonna move in the community where God has placed these people, whether it be in groups of two, single, solo, or or 20, like there's power in that language. Um, it's contagious. That's the other thing. So the the idea of this save people, serve people. When when you get dunked and you're coming out of the baptismal, one of our first questions, not just how you doing, are you excited? This is awesome, but it's where do you want to serve?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And that buy-in right out of the gate. Um it we are seeing the ramifications of intentional language right now. Um, I would, I would honestly say we're nearing 50 to 60 percent of our high school students serving somewhere in the church outside of high school ministry. Like it's not just first impressions that they're leading on a Wednesday, like they are serving the body, and we're seeing that that translate well. Um, you know, 10 years ago, our church launched this idea that we were the Love-the-Ville church. Um, and if you don't know anything about it, I encourage you to check it out. It's really unique in that um we led with the question, how can we help? And we've ended up now being a um an organization that raises multiple millions of dollars to impact the community around us, but that language has invested itself and manifested itself, not just with our adults, but with our students, that yeah, we're Loveville Church and this is what we would do in our homework city and church.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Um I mean, I've been around you guys uh a bit. I've been directing the the superstar that's hosted at Northeast Christian Church for a while. And um the first uh time I walked through the doors, I remember seeing a couple of things that were in my mind were like, oh, this is a fun campaign that they're doing, or like this is a a short-term thing. And then I came back the next year and those two things were like still around. And I was like, oh, it's a really long campaign. And then I came back the third year and I was like, oh, this isn't some like kitschy thing that they did, like this is who they are. Those two things being like the love the veil, which you when you walk into the doors of Northeast Christian Church, you see that language literally written on the walls, right? And then the other thing is, and I I'm gonna forget what it says, but the like light bulb display that you have in the Jesus is why the Jesus is why, yeah. And it has light bulbs, and people have written names on the light bulb. Yep. And I walked in the first time and I was like, oh, this is a cool thing to do, like alongside a sermon series or whatever. And it's like, no, that display has been there for is it still there?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, it's still there. We have a new one in the body right now.

SPEAKER_03:

Years and years and years and years and years and years and years. So um yeah, I I I just think that the the language piece is is really cool and that there aren't probably a ton of youth ministries out there that their students could say, like, this is what it means to be a student at Northeast Christian Church. Um so I guess uh what my question is how how uh so so there's those three three uh kind of belief statements. It's uh belong before you believe, um groups are where you grow. Groups are where you grow and uh serve the service. Say people serve. Say people serve people. Um how long has that language been in place in Northeast?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh just the the year after getting back to normal from COVID. So we'll call it twenty.

SPEAKER_03:

If something, twenty-two. Um so what do you feel like an uh a a typical how often will that get evaluated? You know what I mean? Not that you're like not that it's like we want this to change or we feel like this is stale, so we're going to change it. Um, but like how often are you looking at it and saying, like, does this still work? Does this still encapsulate and describe like who we are in the way that we want to use that language?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, this is kind of lumped into annual review, like assessing our ministry. We we do this in the fall in preparation for um goals writing. Um, you know, we may be a little bit more old school in that. I'm not sure each organization and how they operate, but we write goals for the the upcoming year uh in August and September. And so I I host uh a larger family ministries outing. Um, I mean a really cool house. Uh the teams split off into their unique areas and they assess where they um were able to complete goals over the year. Um, what fell through the cracks that needs to actually continue to stay on the tracks, but just transition into a new year. Um, or what wasn't even worth our time. We need to kill it and we need to move forward. Yeah, the the benefit of the seat that I sit in, I have three phenomenal team leads um who love the specific ministry area they're in with early childhood, elementary, and youth. And um, and they lead from their seat so well um to assess these um in those annual reviews. And and and it's a privilege for me to be able to speak into you know each of those scenarios. But there's also that high trust that I have with them to assess, to evaluate, to see is this still working and this, is this still who we are? What's beautiful about the language that's created in those three for youth ministry specific, they might flex a little bit in the way that it's shared with a student, but on the ideological, philosophical standpoint, I don't ever see those three changing.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like that's we want to cater to people to to come to church who who don't know who Jesus is. We want to foster environments in our small groups where there's true growth happening with peer-to-peer interactions and other adults that we know through Barn of Study matter to influence our our kids' faith, our students' faith. And we want to call out of you where Jesus and where the Holy Spirit is calling you to be into an authentic relationship and living that out in your context.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. So it's like when you look at this not as uh trendy language that we're someday could toy around with. It's like if this language is still around a hundred years from now, like great, you know. Um which is just a perspective that a lot of people probably have about their core values, but maybe don't acknowledge. You know, like I I feel like there is um like churches go through these five to like eight year cycles where it's like Okay, how do we want to communicate who we are to our community now? And um I don't know why that happens. Maybe it's just like we need a refresh, we need a fresh start, we need to get people's attention in our community. I don't know what that is, but um it is interesting that you guys have done the opposite of that and basically said intentionally, like this is who we are, not changing, like um we're gonna continue to to move forward with these principles kind of like guiding us in the places that we'll go. Would you say that um you feel the same way about your programming, or is that a different conversation? Um like what if Wednesday nights Wednesday nights like stopped working? Do you see them not working anymore?

SPEAKER_00:

Like, do you do you know here's what's funny? So we're getting ready to blow up middle school ministry in some beautiful ways, yeah, to actually accommodate for some of the growth that we're experiencing on the campus, but to actually create some more momentum, like what we're seeing in high school. Yeah, to where we envision at some point in time middle school transitioning to a model very similar to what's happening on Wednesdays um with our high schoolers. And Sunday, uh they don't going into like they don't currently do the Wednesday night piece. They do Wednesday night. They do Wednesday night, but it's an hour and a half of uh small group. Uh so there's typically like large group game, a micro recap teaching of what just took place of you know, five, eight minutes of just kind of, hey, this is what last Sunday was to get everybody that on the same page if you were there on Sunday or not. And then uh dismissal, same thing, grade, gender, um, you know, and and in their groups doing the same things. Um, but we really envision there being momentum behind that worship experience and opportunity, um, some of that formal large group teaching, and then digesting that immediately after. A little bit to process with middle school, but I think I think there will be better translation of application in that model than doing Sunday teaching, large group experience, and then uh Wednesday small groups. Where we're seeing the gap with Sunday morning too is just, you know, if if you have the privilege of serving with middle school students, attention span is continuing to just diminish, um, whether that be a good thing or a bad thing. Um, we want to play to that advantage.

SPEAKER_03:

It's a thing, right? It is a thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And so um, there's been some recent studies on just changing up um to like micro teaching, uh to two to five minute um teachings and then tabletop conversations. And quite honestly, you know, selfishly, this is another beautiful opportunity for me to equip students in high school who have a desire to teach and to lead and to to equip them in a position where they can help lead their peers in middle school. Um, and it's selfishly another great benefit is looking at these middle schoolers look up to uh the high school. Yeah, like, whoa, I I could be that one day.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah. Um this is a lot of good stuff to chew on. We're gonna start winding down here, but um, I'm not sure this actually relates to our conversation at all, but it's a curiosity that's popped into my head since we've been talking. You are a pretty like intellectual guy, you're a learned guy. I I get the sense that you like to read and listen to podcasts and just constantly be like challenging your own intellect um about some of these things. Uh what are you reading? What are you listening to? What like what's what's informing all of this? Because I'm fascinated. Like what you're saying sounds deeply well informed. And I'm curious what has like helped you get to to some of these places.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and and again, kudos to the lead team I surround myself with. They're just as avid about learning and growing and suggesting ideas, and we've got that line of trust where we can speak, you know, into each other to figure out hey, is this really working the way we need it to, or do we need to re-evaluate? And you know, I think one of the most encouraging books that my my team and I just walked through was called Canoeing the Mountains.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um phenomenal friends.

SPEAKER_03:

Loves that book.

SPEAKER_00:

So good. It's it's basically uh leadership uh intersecting with ministry and the unknown of where you're going. And you know, encouragement to all the youth pastors out there. Sometimes you feel like you're just stuck in that season um where you're not sure what's next. Um, but it but it walks through the journey of some folks going out west and having to figure out how do we lead through what we thought we could take a canoe through, and now we found ourselves in the mountains. Um it's great for self-evaluation of where you're at, how you're leading your teams. Um, it's great for um understanding how vision casting and um understanding the why and how to um speak into that, why that matters. Um but that's phenomenal as far as leadership stuff. Patrick Lynch Ghani man, he's great.

SPEAKER_03:

And if you're just so accessible, like it's so it really is. Yeah, it's it's just you don't have to like have a PhD to understand what he's trying to say, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and we've recently shifted a little bit of our thinking internally on the working genius stuff that he's recently come out with within the last year or two or whatever. Um, and that's phenomenal too, especially if you work on a team and you're in a spot where you're you're leading others. Um, if you're in a spot where you're responsible for a ton of volunteers and some of their growth and where you want to go, I mean, understanding how they're wired and what they have to offer, phenomenal. Great book.

SPEAKER_03:

It's like I shouldn't have to say this. I think everybody knows this, but like if you're in ministry, you're a leader. It doesn't matter. It does not matter if you're the only person on staff at a church of 40 people or if you're one member of a team of 2,000 at Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, Kentucky, like which is not the church you work at, but I it's the first big church that popped into my mind. But um yeah, like you're leading, you're leading people. So anyway.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. And you know, I I would tell you if you're not in a position where you're talking to other churches and seeing what they're doing, um, and viewing it as a mutually transformational experience or transaction, um, then you're doing it wrong. Don't do ministry in a silo. Um, none of the disciples did that. And forming a church afterward, they there is something unique to be said, um, strength in numbers. Find a couple of churches either near you or some folks that you networked with through college, or go out on a limb and ask your lead pastor who they're inspired by. And then reach out to those churches, figure out what they're doing that's working in programming. Um, begin to uh assess your own ministry. If if you're a youth pastor, you know, I would encourage you to view youth ministry as a seven-year ministry. You know, if you had the ideal scenario and situation where your student was walking through sixth through 12th grade with you, what's your end game and what do the years look like as stepping stones to get to that end game and build up on it? We we have that, and that has helped us immensely in understanding thematically like what a year should look like and what topics we want to help hit on so that all those students can walk to college and know that they have a foundation.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. That's really cool. And and that's where we got into a little bit the last time we talked was just like okay, from the time a kid is born to the time they graduate from high school. So if that listener resonates with you, um, John and I did do an a whole podcast about um I forget what we titled it, but it's like next generation discipleship birth through high school, something like that. I don't know. Um, you'll see it back there. So there's there's a lot more that uh that you can dig into from John back there. And um, John, you've given us a lot to chew on this time as well. Really appreciate you. Is there anything we're missing? What uh is uh like what should I be asking that I'm not asking? Do you feel good about where we landed?

SPEAKER_00:

Two things that I would encourage them to do.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, here we go. As a listener, sorry, I gotta leave them with something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Practical application. Can you make it three just so that it's like yeah, no, I'm kidding. Maybe, but the two that stand out, two that stand out.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh one, um, strengthen your relationship with your lead pastor and just ask them, what do you envision student ministry doing? What do you envision an ideal student at our church looking like? And if you the fruit of what you're producing doesn't look anything like that, time to maybe like really critically think and course correct. Um second thing that I would encourage any youth pastor is a phrase that I heard a long time ago. Don't be afraid to kill old dinosaurs. What I mean by that is there are things that have been historically what our church does. Evaluate, assess, and if it's not producing what you want, kill it. Start something new and allow that to be the new identity of your student body.

SPEAKER_03:

So, wait, really quick, put that into conversation with the topic of this podcast for me.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Put like, don't be afraid to kill old dinosaurs in conversation with tried and true programming for absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

So, again, like assessing where we were at with COVID and and looking at our high school body, um, there was a failure to launch to get students what we felt like really bought into personal faith. Um, they were going off to college and it was it was sad, but we were watching more students walk away from their faith and maintain or grow it. Um, we didn't really have a huge um impact in vocational ministry with our student body. Um, and so we assessed was our 11 a.m. high school only service or our boxed ministry really effectively helping launch students into young adulthood? And we assessed no that the best way for us to actually walk through ministry was to integrate our students into the bigger body of the church so that when they went off to college, they could see that it wasn't awkward to worship, serve, and lead alongside a multi-generational experience in a different church.

SPEAKER_03:

Very cool. All right, John. Um, this has been great. I want you to get off this call, go to please and thank you, eat a chocolate chip cookie on my behalf if that's not. Yeah, yeah. Um, just so I can live vicariously through you. Uh, really appreciate you. Appreciate your 13 years in Northeast. Bummed I won't get to see you at Superstart this year, but uh keep up the good work, buddy. You guys too.

SPEAKER_00:

Appreciate y'all.

SPEAKER_03:

Take care. No wall of honor today, because I'm bad at my job. Today's episode was produced by Michael Hester, Lauren Bryan, and myself. Thanks so much uh to John Lee. Always a treat to get to talk to him. Thanks to Peyton for sharing a little bit about what's going on in the interactive world at CIY. We will be back in two weeks to finish up this conversation by talking with Tyler Hensley about his philosophy of kind of injecting new life into their student ministry. Programming at Forum Christian Church in Columbia, Missouri. Uh, until then, please subscribe so that you don't miss anything wherever you listen to podcasts. Uh in the meantime, you can read out to us at the community Facebook group or podcast.