Alexandre Prate: What if governments became decentralized?

Ronny Eriksson sits down with Alexandre Prate, Co-Founder, Venture Builder & DAO Operations at Hypha Energy, and a pioneer in decentralized governance and well-being intelligence. They delve into how Decentralized Autonomous Organizations (DAOs) are transforming community collaboration, impact measurement, and accelerating system change. Alexandre shares his vision for a more regenerative and equitable world, discussing how DAOs empower individuals to pursue their passions, contribute to societal transformation, and create genuine impact through transparent, democratic processes.

Transcript

Ronny Eriksson:

Alexandre Prate, co-founder, venture builder, and DAO Operations at Hypha Energy, you are at the forefront of the decentralized movement, promoting transparent, democratic decision-making processes and innovative governance models. You are a serial entrepreneur with a successful track record in purpose-driven technological ventures. You are the founder of Hypha DAO, driving systems change through decentralized autonomous organizations.

You are a key figure in creating this decentralized autonomous organization that redefines how communities and organizations operate. You're also a pioneer in well-being intelligence, committed to building a more regenerative and equitable world.

Your interests clearly span from individual well-being to societal and global-level impact.

That's a pretty impressive background—a lot of interesting stuff, a lot of things I really want to dig into. So, welcome to today's episode.

Alexandre:

Thanks, Ronny, it's an honor. Thanks for the opportunity.

Ronny:

Of course.

Each of these episodes always starts with a "what if" question because we want to figure out the big things of the future—the possibilities—but also throw our podcast guests into the deep end. So let's dig into that first.

What if governments and other ruling institutions become more decentralized in the future?

Alexandre:

Yes, there's definitely a trend with nation-states to explore this avenue and to let individuals, really in a decentralized way, take into account their needs and take action, being empowered by these new technologies that we are bringing to the table. So there's definitely a trend for that. Of course, it will take a lot of time. There will be resistance from the current economic system, the current status quo. But what we are seeing across the world are all these projects emerging everywhere—really, everywhere we look—willing to take control of their destiny.

What we are bringing with Hypha is really useful in that matter because we are providing the technological layer, if you like, for democratic governance—decision-making from the members to the members—so that they can really organize themselves at a local scale but also in aggregation to the global scale. So that's really a way to accelerate system change. And that's really what's needed today.

Ronny:

I agree.

In the impact world, we normally look a lot at this green transition. We look at more sustainable solutions to things. I think the whole decentralized term and that whole network is a bit new when we look at the impact world and also older companies, families investing in it.

What is the impact there? What is it actually all about?

Alexandre:

Yes, so the impact is really to locally organize activities around, for example, regeneration or renewable energy, allowing people to actually control and produce their own energy so that they can capture the value without any intermediary and also cover their needs.

So we are seeing a lot of projects in different fields that are actually creating impact. And what is really interesting is that we'll be able, with blockchain technology—with the transparency—to really capture this impact in a genuine way, away from greenwashing and different manipulations of data, because it will be encoded into the blockchain and also verified locally on the field.

We are active in all different sectors of the current economic system, from education to regeneration. We were talking about governments. We are really looking at democratic movements, also the economy itself, with projects like energy, as I was mentioning, responsible leadership, culture. So it's really, really broad, and this technology allows for people to come together around shared purpose. And that's really what is unique in the space because the motivation of the members of these organizations—new digital forms of organizations—is really strong towards this purpose.

Ronny:

Here at Katapult Future Fest, people are coming together for a united purpose. I think that's impact. How could your kind of solution be utilized for a festival like Katapult?

Alexandre:

Yeah, we've been actually talking about that, and it would really help potentially organize the events first, of course, with this idea that volunteers and contributors could be acknowledged. We have, at the center of our system, the contribution accounting that really captures all contributions. And it can be, of course, in all forms of capital: financial, but also time, skills, background, network, etc.

So that would be really interesting to experiment and aggregate the value of such an event because gathering such a group of change-makers is quite unique in the world. And definitely, there's a lot of value not being captured, I think.

And also from that, identifying the people and starting potentially collaboration projects out of the event that can be facilitated by these new forms of digital collaboration.

Ronny:

I think one of the biggest problems in this whole impact space is how do you really measure impact? Impact is done from so many different angles, and it's normally the result of multiple different people collaborating and working together.

So what you're saying, in essence, is that with your type of solutions and with blockchain and decentralized networks, you're able to actually see how each and every individual is contributing, but then also follow up and reward them based on that.

Alexandre:

Exactly, exactly. That's the transparency of the contribution accounting associated with rewards. And we are using tokenization for that to facilitate the sharing of the value. And also, we are translating impact into value back to the members as well because that's definitely valuable. And we have regenerative activities, for example—that's a direct value back to the community.

Ronny:

And then, of course, when the community is rewarded, they feel more encouraged and happier about their contribution. And then, of course, it makes people also happier that they're actually doing something that is worth something.

Alexandre:

Exactly. And that's the connection with well-being, right? Community empowerment. And this idea that we can create bonds and really belong to the community locally and recreate this sense of collaboration together to change the context of the daily life of the community members. So that's really deep in the sense that our context is really human-driven. We call our DAO the Decentralized Human Organism because we want to put and place humans at the center. We believe really that, of course, the blockchain facilitates protocols and helps with transparency, but we shouldn't forget humans in the equation because it's from us that the change will come.

So that's really what we are fostering.

Ronny:

Yeah, and that was actually the thing I was also thinking about—how does the decentralized network and the human, how do those discuss between each other? How does the data flow?

Alexandre:

Yeah, so they are part of this decentralized network. The way it works is that we are forming ecosystems. So imagine a village, a farm, a city, a startup. The DAO can be really anything that is a collaboration between human beings with a common purpose to create impact. So that's the starting point. And when the endeavor is materialized and the members are actually coming into the space, they can co-create together, create value and impact. But that doesn't stop at the local context. We can, with blueprints and replication mechanisms, really quickly share knowledge with other communities that have a similar purpose so that they can learn from each other.

And we call that the DAO-to-DAO collaboration, which is a space that we've organized in the technology as well. And the collection of DAOs following this specific purpose or trying to tackle a segment of the current economic system that is to be transformed can form an ecosystem. So that's another layer, another context that we have also modeled in the technology we provide so that the ecosystem itself can be an organism—a living system, if you like—that brings all these different entities and groups together, supporting each other in pure collaboration.

So we really want to move away from competition and go to pure collaboration because we think that's the only way to accelerate the transformation towards system change. And as the world is burning and massive issues are surfacing today, that's definitely a layer—an operating system—that we think can be beneficial. And all our technology is open source, so it's an invitation for a lot of groups, a lot of communities to use it, to experience it for themselves, and to contribute to this global collaboration.

Ronny:

I love that—like competition, collaboration. There's a really good term called "coopetition."

Alexandre:

Yes.

Ronny:

So you have competition and collaboration. What is coopetition? Work together, but you have these two elements brought together because you still need a bit of competition—competition and cooperation. So then you get it. And because you still need a bit of competition as well, there needs to be, at least in a playful sense, I guess. That's where the real impact happens—when you're trying to do a bit better and the other does a bit better and a bit better, but it's not about out-ruling each other.

I've been following this whole DAO space for a couple of years. Many friends have worked in it. It's a really complex space because there are a lot of terms and words and hard things to understand. That's also, I think, one of the problems in a lot of impact companies—that people are in... Really, impact is done with things that are extremely complex and extremely deep.

At least they look so on the outside, but then when you get on the inside, they actually are not. It makes a lot of sense. So how did you get into this? Where did your journey start from, and why DAOs?

Alexandre:

Yeah, so first, to respond on the complexity, what we are actually finding is that the terminologies are complex, but the DAO is an experience. We've experienced it ourselves because when we started five years ago, we were a DAO. We started as a DAO, and we've created the technology that we are now expanding to other organizations. We went through these five years of deep experimentation.

So really, the idea is that the systems are complex. All these interactions between the different DAOs can take many forms, and nobody can really model that. That's certainly the limitation of Web2 and the current systems that are imposing a model or trying to predefine everything. In the DAO space, it's really the ecosystem—it's a living ecosystem.

So when you're a member of a DAO, actually, you're not seeing this entire complexity. You're looking at your context from your lens, and that becomes completely manageable. It's about what should I do to contribute to this local effort. I know that there's an ecosystem behind all of this—that is the complex system.

What we've done also is to really simplify the user experience because we know that Web3 appears as being really technical, and the user interfaces are quite—for most of them—very simple. So we've created an experience that is for everyone to use, inspired by the codes of a simple app—an elegant app, really simple—so that anyone can experience this DAO journey without having to go through technical training. So it's really accessible to everyone. And I think that's the key to bridge Web2 to Web3. And that's really what Hypha is trying to do by, as I was saying, looking at the different segments of the economy and trying to bring the different stakeholders into these new spaces that offer a lot of possibilities.

Ronny:

And it's really true what you were saying also. If you have a car—a Formula 1 car, for example—and then someone who knows how to drive a normal car, it's a pretty scary experience to go drive the Formula 1 car, even though it's a normal car. The engine is just a bit different. If you take the engine and you put it into the normal car, then people are comfortable to go drive it because it's still the same car you're driving, but suddenly you have a lot more horsepower. So I think that's the same thing with Web2 or Web3. When we put it in the same familiar outside clothes but then have the new engine or heart to actually operate it. That's what democratizing is all about, right? It's about how do you make it accessible for all the people and not too scary.

Alexandre:

Yeah, definitely. And that's why I think the human transition—we were talking about well-being and my work also in that space—is really, really important to take into account the human behavior when transitioning to this new space. Because there's a lot of fear around crypto markets, etc., but we're absolutely not in that space. We are leveraging the technology—the tokenization—in a way that creates genuine value and really focuses on impact. So that's the complexity, right? To really explain the separation between this speculative aspect and the genuine part.

But there's a lot of initiatives, a lot of groups—we call them service DAOs—that are supporting the Hypha network as a whole, this ecosystem that we are creating, by providing this education, training, and embarking new members into the DAO journey. And that's really where the effort is, I think. And we'll see an evolution during the next one or two years of a lot of democratization of these different use cases.

Ronny:

Exactly. And it's really beautiful to see how you're creating impact on impact on impact. Because it's like, first, your platform does an impact in the end, but then it's about actually impacting people to understand it, and then it's impacting people to even be enabled to use it. And you mentioned well-being. You have here worded "a pioneer in well-being intelligence." What is well-being intelligence?

Alexandre:

Yeah, so that's really this idea to live your life understanding the moments that you are living and what they are reflecting back to yourself. So I've created a few applications that—I was honored to receive some global design awards for this work. And they're all about self-reflection and really capturing moments in life for people to reflect back on who they are, what they love doing, what is their passion. And that's the connection also with the DAOs. Because in that space, what is really interesting is that people show up as they are and propose roles that they want to play. It's completely different from a corporate environment where you would be put in a box or you need to comply with the different requirements of a job title. In that space, you come, you see what is happening, and you create the relationships. And then you decide where you want to play, what role you want to actually play. And that creates a mentally new dynamic. We have seen that every one of us is experiencing that actually on a daily basis because you only do what you love doing. So that's really different from the current status quo.

Ronny:

Yeah, I love this whole purpose, passion, values, interest segment. That's where most of us normally find happiness. You even have this Ikigai model, if you're familiar with it—the Japanese model: do something that you love and do something that is good for the world and do something that makes you money, and then bring all of that together.

How are you doing—or do you have any good tips on how to first figure out those first four things? So what is the purpose, passion—what do you really like to do? Because I think many people, either in the impact world or outside of it, get a bit stuck on that. And that's when you don't truly get to make an impact when you don't find it. So what is your experience?

Alexandre:

Yeah, that's interesting because we've not been educated in that way for most of us. It was always towards fitting into the current economic system and finding a spot that was available for you. But in that space, what we are asking people to do is to leave all the baggage outside and to take the leap—to really be themselves. And it's really difficult for a lot of people. It's a journey of transition, really trying—we were talking about self-introspection. And so there's definitely a lot of this that needs to happen. But once you leave the baggage outside and you open up, you are confident with the unknown, and you're open to see this flow running into you—that's where you start seeing things differently. And there's no turning back. Once you've crossed the mirror, it's really beautiful out there. So you don't necessarily want to come back to what exists on the mainstream education level.

Ronny:

So if I'm understanding you correctly, with the rise of these DAOs and the decentralized whole network, people will actually be able to escape the system as it is and be free to pursue what they're most passionate about, which normally also is the most impactful thing that they can do.

Alexandre:

Exactly, exactly right. And that's an evolution. We don't want to force anything—it's a natural evolution. Some people will jump into that space because they have been looking for that for a long time and they have already gone through a little bit of the journey. Some of us will not be aware of the possibilities there and will have some resistance. But we want to welcome everyone, of course, into this transition because we really believe that's the way forward. So yeah, we need to find a lot of people supporting this transition. It's almost the great migration towards a better space. And once you experience that—as I was saying, once you open to it—you can really find your way. And what we are trying to do to make it practical and concrete is to focus on use cases. So I was talking about energy, for example. We are launching Hypha Energy, which is a venture around empowering energy communities in Europe. We're starting with Europe, of course, with the intent to go global. And that's a huge trend in Europe with 200,000 energy communities that will be created by 2030. And they will need tools. They will need this decentralization, this governance, and fractional ownership for their community to run. So that's a really practical use case that I think most people will understand when they see their bills—the price of energy—decreasing by 50 to 80 percent, for example. And they will come into that space with user interfaces that are mainstream, inspired by the look and feel of Web2 but, as you said, with the engine that is offering much more possibilities. But they don't need to be exposed to these technical issues. And then they will discover progressively what's next, what is also available for them.

Ronny:

Yeah.

It's fun. I've been going through these episodes now—probably six or seven episodes before you—and everyone mentions that wording "what's next." It comes in all the discussions, and everyone is working from one or another side to figure out how it's easier for people or the world to work towards what's next.

So I ask you two questions here. Let's start with the first one. Do you have a "what if" question? Have you come up with something on that scene?

Alexandre:

Yeah. So it's related to what I've been passionate about and working on for the last decade or more, which is: What if we could accelerate system change? What if we could collaborate together through this new technology—living systems technology—that would dramatically accelerate the transition? And we all know—I think we all feel—that a transition is necessary. There are some resistances, of course, from the current economic system to keep the status quo. But for those who have understood that transition is necessary, I think we have the tools. It's not a future vision. It's really here and now that we can start collaborating and accelerating the pace because we are completely falling behind.

So yeah, it's really also about considering the people and the planet. And all our technology, as I was saying, is inspired by nature, organically organized to expand, to also mimic the living system with this idea that a DAO can form—a DAO can divide itself if it grows to cover more functions, more geographical area, for example. It can aggregate—it can start from local to a bioregional context and then spread again. So that's really beautiful to see, and we are already seeing that in the Hypha network happening.

So when you get into this human organic context, you start to transcend yourself in a way and really start to see things from a different angle, which I think will completely accelerate the progress of the world in this direction—in a way that we can definitely be fulfilled by respecting the people and the planet.

Ronny:

And the more and more you talk about these DAOs, the more I have the feeling that they are some sort of living organisms—like they remind me of cells or something, you know, like a forest or nature. They will multiply themselves, and they start to support each other, and they become an ecosystem.

It's pretty fun to see that we're always trying to develop and create impact by doing everything in new ways. Well, I think a lot of the answers actually are found in the forest and in nature and in the core of us. And now we're just replicating that back into a format that we can utilize as a society instead of building something that is not real, like the economic system, for example—something we came up with—but cells and nature and all of that, that's real, that's tangible.

Alexandre:

Yeah, it's interesting because we are using the analogy of the cell quite often—the DAO as the cell. And we also call the core team of the DAO the nucleus, so there's a lot of analogy. And then you have the community membrane that surrounds the project team—the core team that organizes the activities.

And yes, definitely mimicking nature in the sense that we create templates, blueprints that can also accelerate the transfer of knowledge and the feedback loop to understand what works, what doesn't work.

And we really think that if we put that in common—if we have a common repository of these blueprints—then everyone can benefit from that without having to restart from a blank sheet of paper. So yeah, that's really the fractalization of nature, these different spaces and scopes, and also the fact that we are one. So if you get to that space where you understand that you, nature, the universe is one, then you start to understand how these ecosystems—these living systems—can self-organize organically, following the flow of life.

Ronny:

That's impressive.

As the last question here—and I promised you two questions a bit earlier—in an inspiring, optimistic way, what would you say is the "what's next"? What is going to happen next? What's next up on the horizon?

Alexandre:

I can give you my hope.

Ronny:

That I need.

Alexandre:

Yes. So my hope is that we will get into this space of creativity, expansion of what it is for us to be humans, and start to let go of the barriers—the artificial scarcity that has been created—because nature is abundant. And once again, if we get inspired by nature, we'll see that there's no such thing as this idea of limitation or not being holistic in the way we operate. And the current economic system is really segmenting and dividing. So if we can get back to this wholeness, because that existed before...

So it's really coming back to the essence of humanity and what it is to be human. And my hope for what's next is a massive realization that something else is possible with opening up to happiness, well-being, prosperity, and also covering the needs of everyone—reducing inequalities and really embracing diversity. So that's really what I think is possible. Now, will that happen so easily? I don't think so because there will be some protection mechanisms of the current systems. But the power is in the people. So if we all start to transition to these new spaces, I think the evolution will happen organically.

Ronny:

Well, talking about hope, that's one thing that you have for sure given to me. Also, a lot of inspiration.

Didn't actually know that much about this segment as I thought. Now my mind is blown. So inspired to delve deeper into it, but also inspired to actually delve deeper into nature because I think there is a lot of power in that.

I want to wish you a really, really, really fun Katapult Future Fest experience. I think you also will be inspired there but inspire many to come.

I hope to see you here in the upcoming days, and thank you so much for the insights.

Alexandre:

Thanks so much, Ronny. Thanks for the invitation, and really excited about the event.

Ronny:

Awesome.