#66: Gain Baking Confidence with Self-Taught Pastry Chef, Matt Adlard

Matt Adlard is a self-taught baker and pastry chef from Norwich, England. Through his Bake It Better online baking school as well as his Instagram and TikTok videos, Matt shares the basics of baking, how to transition to advanced skills, and how to become a pro-level baker.
In today's episode, I talked to Matt about his journey to becoming a pastry chef and how he gained confidence in his baking skills. We chatted about his newly released cookbook, Bake It Better, and the process of creating a recipe book from scratch. Get to know Matt and gain some of your own baking confidence!

Connect with Matt:
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Transcript

[00:00:00] to the Plan to Eat podcast. Where I interview industry experts about meal planning, food and wellness. To help you answer the question. What's for dinner. 

Roni: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the PLAN TO EAT podcast. Today, I have a lovely interview to share with Matt Adlard. Matt is a self taught baker and pastry chef from England. He has been a host and a judge on Food Network shows and BBC shows. He also has a popular YouTube channel, Instagram account.

You can find him online talking about baking, teaching people baking 101.

And he has recently written a new cookbook. It's called bake it better. So in today's interview, we talk a little bit about the cookbook, talk about his journey as a self taught pastry chef. As well as just some other advice that he has for gaining confidence in [00:01:00] becoming a, a better baker, and I really enjoyed this conversation with Matt and I hope that you enjoy it too. Matt, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast today.

Matt: It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Roni: So why don't you just give us a little intro and tell us who you are and what you do.

Matt: So my name is Matt Adlard. I'm a self taught pastry chef, influencer, uh, and soon to be author. I'm just about to publish my first book, uh, which is called Bake It Better. And I mainly just create, uh, pastry content online across my social channels, kind of educating people about the fundamentals of a French pastry.

I'm really into that, but also I have a. a very creative side to my baking, which involves a lot of 3D printing and vacuum forming and molding. And yeah, it's just about, I'm really passionate about educating people about baking and pastry.

Roni: Yeah. I want to get into a little bit later, some of the [00:02:00] 3d printing recipes that you've done. Cause that is really cool. And I don't think I've ever seen other people do that. But first I want to know a little bit about like, what got you interested in baking in the first place?

Matt: It's a really good question. Well, I have to say off the bat, my dad was a Michelin star chef. So food was always in the family, you know, I grew up above the restaurant, everything revolved around dad's restaurant, you know, running up and down and printing menus and waiting to get to school because dad had to do something and get the beef out the fridge, you know, whatever it was, everything was about food, but that really.

put me off going into food. I never wanted to be a chef or a pastry chef because I saw how hard he worked. And then I was 21 studying at universities in my final year and I was just, I worked really hard and to stem the boredom of writing loads of essays, I decided to make a chocolate orange cake. So I used Nigella's recipe.

I don't know why I picked baking instead of knitting, or I don't know [00:03:00] why it was baking, but that was, that was the hobby I chose. And it was a disaster. Like one of the worst, the worst cake I've ever made. I didn't have any equipment, no scale. So I converted everything into teaspoons. So I think I weighed out about 250 teaspoons of sugar.

You know, it was crazy. And it was so bad. And I'm a real perfectionist in what I do. I'm quite stubborn and I really, really want to be great at everything I try, you know, gardening, cocktails, or whatever it is. And so I just had to get better. And so I made it my mission to get better at baking and just taught myself through social media and YouTube videos, Instagram, um, how, how to bake, techniques, flavors, everything.

I'm really good at Googling. So, um, I'm really good at searching the internet for techniques and recipes. And yeah, I've been doing it for... I've been an influencer for eight years now. I've been doing it full time for about five years. I've been baking for 11 years now. Um, so it's been a while. I'm a dinosaur in the kind of influencer [00:04:00] industry.

Roni: So you went from regular university to YouTube university.

Matt: Yeah. So I did have a job in between because I wasn't, I wasn't like an influencer off the bat. So I did work in London and I worked in advertising and media, but you know, I was making no money and working horrendously long hours. Then I kind of started this blog. as a bit of fun and I would go to London, I'd trek across London every weekend with like a KitchenAid and my pans and my spatulas and I'd go film YouTube videos.

I just remember thinking, you know, this is crazy. I'm traveling an hour across London every weekend just to film these videos. I really hope this... pays off one day. And it did. It did. You know, it took a while. It took a lot of dedication. But I kind of had that overnight success, you know, in 24 hours, my channel blew up.

And from there, it became legitimate. And I was able to turn it into a career.

Roni: Wow, that's kind of crazy. You don't hear very many people who have like that as their story.

Matt: I think back in the day, having that kind of [00:05:00] overnight explosion of success. Was rare And nowadays, I think it's really feasible if you look at tiktoks and reels, you know You can go from zero to a million followers in three days on tiktok It's not it's not unheard of because back in the day on Youtube and instagram to get you know, a hundred thousand subscribers overnight or a hundred thousand followers.

That was Tough and I did it. Um, I had this one video that someone featured me in and it went So viral on facebook back when facebook was like the platform And it you know, I had 2000 friend requests on facebook, you know, people were finding everything out about me Um, it was crazy and that really boosted me To another level, because once you reach that number of followers, people expect you to be really good at what you're doing.

And I still had no idea. I was only three years into baking, maybe, and bare in mind, I'm self taught. So three years, that's not three years of pastry school. That's three years of failing. And so I wasn't really that good, but I had. you know, 200, 000 followers. And so [00:06:00] people expected me to be really good at what I was doing.

And so I had to learn really quickly on the fly, how to be a good pastry chef.

Roni: Well, not only a pastry chef, but also how to create good YouTube videos and stuff. Cause that's a different skill completely.

Matt: Yeah. I mean, I just got some new cameras today and I'm unboxing them. I'm thinking, I have no idea. I don't know how to use these. It's completely different to what I've used before. I need mics and diffuser, you know, it's every day is learning. It's way more than just. Pastry is presenting, it's editing, it's negotiating, there is a huge world to this kind of influencer life that people don't necessarily see.

And there's actually a lot of skills you learn that I never would have had, you know, I can do 3D designs online, I can edit videos, I can present to people, you know, there's just so many skills that come along with it that isn't just making a cake.

Roni: Yeah. Are you a one man show in that regard? Do you do all your videos and editing and stuff?

Matt: Yeah, so my wife actually just started working with me [00:07:00] this week. Um, so she came on board because I have an online baking school, uh called bake it better And she kind of specializes in sort of customer management and websites and stuff So she's taking that on board which is amazing because it takes a huge load off of me.

But yeah, I do everything I film, I edit, um, I negotiate, I reply to emails, everything is me. And, you know, I've worked with different people over the years, but never, no one's as passionate as I am, no one works as hard as I do, so I just end up doing everything myself. But I'm hoping my wife will start, you know, smashing out of the park and she'll take some stuff off my load.

Roni: That's like the downfall of being an entrepreneur, right? It's like, nobody else is going to care as much as you care about your own business.

Matt: Yeah, especially in this industry, you know, it's... Your success is all on you. You know, when I wake up in the morning, no one's telling me to make a blueberry pie or an apple, you know, no one's telling me what to do. You have to have the self motivation and the ideas and the creativity to grow your brand.

And I think it [00:08:00] takes you so far, but eventually if you want to take your career to the next level, you need connections. You need people who know the producers, the Netflixes, the literary agents, you know, you need to reach into that world because I think creating content, you can do. You can be good at it, but it will only take you so far and it eventually gets to a point where your skills are kind of capped and you need other people who can, who can elevate you.

Roni: Yeah. So getting back to the baking a little bit, what, what is it about baking that you like kind of fell in love with? What's the thing that makes it so special to you?

Matt: I really like the creativity of it. I like the precision and weighing ingredients and turning those into something show stopping and spectacular that you look at and you say, wow, I cannot wait to eat that. That looks delicious. And so I love that element of. Precision, taste, texture, color. You know, so many [00:09:00] elements that go into pastry.

Uh, it's not just throwing everything in a pan and seeing what happens. There's so many different stages where you can add your creativity. And that's what I really enjoy. And I like the journey of it because it's not easy because it's so precise. Things go wrong all the time and they go wrong for me every single day.

And I like the learning and the development that goes into it because. You know, if you're great at making pizza, that doesn't necessarily mean you're good at making sourdough. You're great at making cakes, which doesn't necessarily mean you're good at making entremets. You know, there's always something to learn.

And I love that kind of exponential knowledge that there is to gain.

Roni: Yeah, I think baking is really unique because it, it can be so creative, but it's also a science at the same time, like regular, you know, cooking dinner, there's always a way at the end to be like, Oh, it needs more of this, or it needs, you know, something else to like enhance the flavor. Whereas like baking, it's like when you get your final product, it's.

Kind of what [00:10:00] you got. And so if you didn't take the science into the account, into account in the beginning, you kind of end up with something that's not so great, but like you said, there's creativity along the way to be able to like tweak different flavors and stuff.

Matt: Big time. I totally agree with that. Yeah. And I'm, I'm a terrible, well, not terrible cook, but it's not my forte. And I don't like the idea of kind of just being able to do a pinch and a splash and a tease. You know, that's not me. I want it weighed out everything to be precise so that I can get it exactly the same every single time.

Roni: What's uh, what are some of your favorite flavors to bake with?

Matt: You know, I always say this, I'm, I'm such a basic baker. You know, when I started baking, it was just being able to teach myself recipes I really enjoyed. So chocolate chip cookies or white bread. So still in my baking today, I make recipes with chocolate, lemon, hazelnut, caramel, you know, really simple, classic flavors.

I'm not really one for miso or tahini or that's not my bag, [00:11:00] that's not really my expertise and I just love classic flavors that you can elevate. So yeah, I'm a basic, basic baker.

Roni: Yeah. Uh, I've always been curious how, I mean, cause I'm a big fan of the great British bake off. And I've always wondered how bakers decide like what flavors go well together. How do you, how do you make that decision?

Matt: Yes, that's a really good question. I guess it's trial and error. You know, I did something the other day with um, lemon, it was like a lemon cremo, like a lemon cream, and then also used a hazelnut praline milk chocolate for your teens. You've got kind of salty, oily, caramelized nuts with milk chocolate, which is quite.

Sweet, and then a very tart, citrus, you know, lemon cremo, and I thought this might be a bit odd, but actually the combination worked really well, and I'm sure there's stuff I combine that's, that's really weird, but it is a trial and error, sometimes having things in your fridge that you [00:12:00] can just throw into a tart and see if it works, um, but yeah, it's experimenting with things that you think you're going to like.

If you love yuzu and tahini, Put Yuzu and Tahini together. I mean, why not? If you like it, who cares?

Roni: Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.

Matt: That's my attitude. I'm like, well, I like it, so I don't care what anyone else thinks. I

Roni: Right. Yeah. So in your process of learning how to become a better baker, what do you feel like are some of those like essential skills that you would recommend any new baker? Learn.

Matt: think the first thing I would say, not necessarily a skill, but is a piece of equipment, would be a digital scale. So, like we've said, baking is all about... Precision, and if you start using cups and teaspoons, it's just, it's just inaccurate. Um, people might disagree, but it, but it is because, you know, one cup of flour is, you know, I've got about five different cup measures and they all measure different amounts of flour.

But if you want something to be really consistent every single time, you'll [00:13:00] never see the best pastry chefs in the world using cups. So get yourself a digital scale. It will be super accurate. And then a skill, you know, again, sounds silly, but really read the recipe through because I'll start at the top of the recipe, just keep going down.

And it's like, Oh, now chill it for half an hour, or you should've let it rest for 45 minutes, or I should've turned on my oven and I haven't, I haven't really prepped myself very well. So if you read the recipe, you kind of know what the next step is, and then you feel confident going through it. And then.

Be, be ready to fail. You know, in baking, a really good skill is taking on a failure, kind of absorbing that knowledge and turning it into a positive and saying, okay, I chopped the chocolate too far. And that's, that's why I melted so much. Actually, next time I'm going to leave it nice and chunky. I really liked the flavor and the texture, but.

Dang, I wish I'd, wish I'd changed the texture of that chocolate. And so that's how I learned. It was just failing, taking on that kind of negative aspect of baking and then turning it into a positive by thinking, Oh, well, next time when [00:14:00] I remake that, this is what I'm going to do. You almost get scarred, to be honest.

You get scarred from the failures and you're like, Oh, what an error. I'm so annoyed at myself. I'm never going to do that again.

Roni: Yeah. I think that to me, there's a, there's like a barrier to entry when it comes to like baking something that seems really fancy. And honestly, it's reading through the recipe and being like, Oh my gosh, there's so many steps here.

Matt: Yes. There can be a lot of steps, and I think sometimes it depends on who's writing it and what they're, what they're putting in the steps. I think it's important that every step has a purpose, but also, when I write a recipe, I quite like to be conversational with it. It's almost like I'm standing next to you, like, hey, look, if you put the acetate here, it's not the end of the world.

If it's too long, just patch it up and it will be fine, you know. It's giving you the confidence as you're reading through the recipe and it might appear really long, but it's comforting you and giving you the answers to questions you might already have or not have thought of and thought, Oh, actually, yeah, that's really important.

I [00:15:00] wouldn't have even thought of that step. Um, so yeah, the recipe, the recipes can be, especially if you're doing something. Like an entremet, which has four different elements, and a glaze, and temperatures are important, or you're laminating doughs, and, you know, it depends how deep into the baking world you go.

Roni: Right? Yeah. Do you think that, um, Is it just taking action is something that leads to more confidence in baking? Or do you think that there's, there are other things that people could do?

Matt: I think the first step is starting, like if you're just starting out baking, starting with really simple recipes. If you haven't baked much and you start to make macarons... You just, there's going to be some fundamental techniques that you will have missed had you just started with cupcakes and cookies and bread and whatever it is.

And there's a lot of transferable skills in baking, so when you come to take on those more difficult bakes, you're like, okay, I do know how to hold a piping bag, what's a, to add the piping nozzle and get a really steady motion as I'm piping the macaron. So my advice is always start [00:16:00] simple with recipes that you really enjoy.

So that's how I started and then that will build your confidence and also teach you these kind of unknown Fundamental skills that you probably thought weren't relevant, but actually really help you out later on.

Roni: Um, what kind of recipes do you really enjoy?

Matt: Gosh I love making tarts anything with pastry So in the book we I grew up my dad like I said was a Michelin star chef and he had this very famous lemon tart recipe and It is the best lemon tart. I've really tried to find an alternative. I've tried many and many restaurants lemon tarts and nothing compares.

And so lemon tart is my favorite, but anything, you know, chocolate tart, chocolate caramel tart, anything with, with pastry. and a filling I am obsessed with because I just love that, the beauty of it, the design you can add to it, and the colour and the texture, but also all the different layers and flavours you can add.

A tart for me is just a blank canvas of flavour and [00:17:00] texture.

Roni: Do you and your dad make the tart the same way?

Matt: I've kind of adapted it. So as I got better and better at pastry, I learned new techniques that he wasn't really aware of because he's a lot older now. And so he's not up to date with, you know, the new fancy techniques. And so I've kind of made it slightly more professional by the way I make the pastry and how I roll it out and heating the mixture slightly before it goes in the oven.

So his is quite an old school way of making it still the same recipe, but I think mine turns out better. And he has agreed. Mine is mine is better now, but he. Begrudgingly says, okay, yeah, yours is better, Matthew.

Roni: Well, to be fair, he's not, I'm assuming he wasn't trained as a pastry chef, right? He was trained as

Matt: He did a little bit, so there's a very famous hotel in London called the Connell. Um, and he trained in the pastry section at the

Roni: Oh, okay.

Matt: He was a chef though, like, you know, that was his bread and butter making proper main hearty [00:18:00] meals, French classic, English classic dishes. Um, so he's not an expert in pastry.

If I said, dad, make me a donut, he'd have no clue.

Roni: Right. Uh, okay, so I do really want to talk about your 3D printer recipes. What, how did that, how did you get started with that? What's the, what's the origin?

Matt: Oh, well, there's a really famous pastry chef on Instagram who I'm sure you've come across. Uh, his name's Amari Guchon, and he makes just the most incredible desserts, uh, makes

Roni: He does like the big, yeah, the

Matt: yeah, giant chocolate sculptures, and he kind of pioneered this sort of 3D, he started using 3D print to create very small elements that he could create silicon moulds from.

And so I... I was always been interested in design and thought well I can buy a 3D printer and create a custom mold because sometimes a Silicon mold for something is really expensive or it's not the right shape or the size or you want something quite unique I thought [00:19:00] you can get desktop vacuum forming machines now I thought well if I can 3D print a shape that I can't get anywhere else and put it into a desktop vacuum forming machine I can create any mold any shape I want and it opened up just a world of possibilities because I'm not saying I came up with the most creative designs or shapes, but I was able to just Come up with these crazy ideas in my head that no one else had done before.

So I made a 3d printed cupcake. So I, I 3d printed the piping, a 3d printed the cupcake case, and it looked like a cupcake, but it was immaculate, you know, every detail was perfect because I've measured it. Uh, I designed it all when it was unique, it was no one else. Had ever done it and what I love about that the 3d element and all that is Creating things that no one's ever seen before and not necessarily, you know crazy shapes or anything like that But it's doing things that no one has ever created and I love that Idea of being a pioneer within pastry.[00:20:00] 

Roni: Right. Well, I think I saw on your Instagram feed that you had this, I don't remember what the cake itself was, but you had like a white cake and had like geometric cup, different colored geometric shapes on top. And it's So it's like a work of art. It's so beautiful because it's like the contrast of something that's like handmade plus things that are like precision made that you just don't often, I think, get with a lot of baked goods is like you get the contrast of it that makes it look like, oh, this could be on like a canvas or something.

It's really cool.

Matt: was that was a really cool one because I found an artist on instagram who Made to use like square white canvases then he'd Make paper shapes similar to the kind of triangles, and he'd arrange them in these crazy patterns. I thought I can, I can turn that into a dessert. So I, I tagged him in the post, but I love the vision and the color he used of, again, like you said, this juxtaposition of a very blank white canvas and then these bright pops of color from the triangles, a [00:21:00] range in these unique formations.

I was like, I'm gonna do that. And so I three D printed little squares, vacuum form them, created all these different colors and put it onto a. You know, a white dessert and it was, it was really fun. It wasn't as beautiful as the canvas he made, but again, it was a, it was this trial and error of creating something unique that, that no one had ever done before.

Roni: Yeah. I think that the, this three D printer idea to me feels like it goes along with your personality because you seem to really like the precision aspect of things and the perfectionist aspects of it.

Matt: Big time. I don't know, I don't know when it really became my thing, but I love, yeah, I just love precision. I don't like failing at anything. You know, like I said earlier, if I'm gardening or making a cocktail or, Yeah, whatever it is, I want to be the best, and I know I'm not necessarily going to be the best, but I'm going to aim for that.

And fall somewhere just, just slightly short of it and so adding that precision element and I love the aspect of doing something saying I've done [00:22:00] something no one's done before. I love, you know, it's like arrogance, it's your ego, but I was like, yeah, I was the first person to ever do that. So I did a dessert the other day, which was, um, using the Threads logo.

So Threads is obviously really popular now. And so I 3D printed an app shape and I 3D printed the Threads logo. And I kind of sprayed this dessert to make it look like the Threads app icon. Like, no one had done that before. It was simple, but it was fun and creative and creates conversation. I just love being able to say, Hey, it was, I was the first person that made that.

Roni: That's really cool. I, I'm imagining your kitchen right now being like half standard baking items that people would totally expect to see. And then like half of it is like weird gadgets and , like, almost

like, like you have like a tech side of your kitchen.

Matt: literally looking up from my computer, but two 3d printers. Um, I've got a cutting machine, four cameras, 3D printed moulds, like, all above me is my tech, and then I go into the kitchen, it's like, [00:23:00] kitchenaids and bowls and spatulas, so yeah. I've got two sides to the house, the tech and the kitchen.

Roni: That's so fun. So I know that previously, I don't think that you're doing any right now, but you've been like a, a TV show host and like a judge on different baking shows. Did, how did that come about? Was that just because your YouTube channel got so popular and people invited you to do that? Or was that.

Did you like seek out being on TV as well?

Matt: Yeah, that's a really good question. So I started, I didn't mention this earlier, but I started my career, uh, as a guy called Topless Baker. So essentially I cooked with an apron on. This is why I went so viral. I cooked with an apron on, but without a shirt on. So I was, I was quite muscly at the time. I was quite young and I went really viral for that and got a lot of media attention.

And so a guy from Food Network messaged me and said, Hey, I'm, I'm a producer at Food Network. Would love to, to bring you out to the States for kind of an audition. So I'm 24, I think at this point. I'm in America, I get picked up in a [00:24:00] blacked out BMW, I'm thinking like, this is it, I'm the next Jamie Oliver, I'm gonna be so famous at the end of this, you know, there's water in the car, he's got a suit on, anyways, I do this audition, uh, and then nothing came of it, you know, nothing, they never said, oh, we're gonna give you a show, we want you to be on this, and it wasn't until probably Three years later, you know, I've been in touch with this guy and he emailed me and said, Hey, look, do you want to come be a judge on the show?

And I didn't have to audition, nothing like that. He literally just sent me an email up the blue. And, and I'll never forget that day because for me, it was just really the pinnacle of my career and how. Much I'd worked to get to that point and that was my dream to be, to be on Food Network. And so I remember getting that email and just screaming and just thinking, this is it, this is it.

Um, and yeah, I got an email and flew out to America and kind of one show led to another. And then kind of once COVID hit. They kind of stopped bringing me out because obviously we couldn't travel. And so I [00:25:00] started doing more TV here in the UK, but yeah, honestly, it was just an email, um, from an audition that I'd done years and years and years before.

Roni: That feels like it would be such an honor to, to be like a, your, since you're a self taught baker, like there's an aspect of that that's like, wow, like, like you were the one who did this for yourself. Like, it wasn't like, Oh, I went through years of culinary training. And so like, of course, like I deserve to be in this spot.

Like there's something that's so special about being a self taught. Baker and then being asked like to judge other people's bakes. That's so cool.

Matt: What's hard about that as well is, you know, I'm self taught, so I'm kind of pigeonholed in what I want to learn, so cookies, bread, sourdough, whatever it is. And I go on these shows, and, you know, American baking is quite different to European baking, so the first one I did was, uh, A cookie challenge show like sugar cookies, and I've never never made sugar cookies [00:26:00] before and done royal icing decorating and these contestants were making 3D sculptures from cookies with royal icing and doing all these techniques that I'd never even tried them sat there as a judge thinking I would have gone out on the first round of this, you know, their skill was beyond what I could do and another show where they were sculpting cakes with, um, Rice Krispies and marshmallow and making, you know, giant figurines.

I couldn't do any of that. And I was having some kind of offer opinion, say, well they should have done this, or the consistency of the buttercream was wrong. But actually I had no idea. But that is, you know, that's part of the game of, of being a judge. If they'd put a tart in front of me, I would've lit them up.

'cause I would've known exactly what I was talking about. But it's always interesting depending on the show and the format of what's being presented to you and what you have to judge. And if, if you have the knowledge. Of that particular item.

Roni: Yeah, that's so interesting that you say that because it does make me realize there are a lot of [00:27:00] even you just talking about tarts so much like that. We obviously have some tarts here in the United States, but it's not. Those are not our most popular dessert items by any means and most of them are basically like a kind of like a plain vanilla like custard with yeah with some strawberries or something on top like they're very basic.

Um, what's something that's kind of like unique I guess to like maybe American baking that you like realize that you really love?

Matt: That's a really good question. Wow, I'm gonna have to ponder this. I haven't been to the States for a while, I'm trying to think what I've eaten recently. I guess the kind of, the creativity in the States is very different. You know, the colours, you know, when I'm thinking about cakes and cookies and tarts, everything is very colourful and very American.

The fact that it's bigger and bolder and more dramatic. That's what I Everything in Europe's very [00:28:00] kind of subtle and precise, you know, it's not too loud. Whereas I think when you go into a bakery or you go on these shows, everything they do has this wow factor to it, which I think is. Really impressive.

Uh, and everyone is very confident when they're going into it. You know, they could be the worst baker ever, but they go into it. So confident. I've got a bakery in Atlanta and, you know, and it's incredible. I love the, the confidence they exude as they, as they go into things. But yeah, it's a very different style of baking and it's not quite as clean and precise, but it's very loud and big and extra.

And I, uh, I like that.

Roni: Yeah, I don't think I'd ever heard of, like, choux buns or choux pastry before I started watching The Great British Bake Off. Like, I was like, I don't know what that would taste like at all until, like, one time I think when I, um, went to France. Like, we had, we went to a little, like, pastry, uh, patisserie, what do you, what do they call them?

Boulangerie? Yeah, like a little pastry [00:29:00] shop and, uh, yeah, and we had some there and I was like, okay, this makes a lot more sense now. But it's so, it was, it was actually really funny because. I think, I don't remember, there was one season of the Great British Bake Off in particular where they, it was like every single week they had to like add choux buns to a different thing and I was like, I don't know what this is.

Matt: and it's tough as well, you know, I think the technique of choux buns has come on such a long way and the conditions they put them under to make those items is so difficult. I'm thinking, I want to freeze this overnight and add a crackling and, you know, they don't get to do any of that. So you judge anything.

Oh, he's done a terrible job. Actually, he had to make that in an hour and a half. Uh, hasn't been able to do all these fancy techniques that would improve his choux pastry. It's tough. It's really tough.

Roni: Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about your cookbook a little bit. Um, I think by the time this podcast comes out, uh, I think your, your book will be published already, which is really exciting for you.

What was your, [00:30:00] what's your favorite part of making the cookbook? Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: Wow, I guess proving to myself that I could do it. You know, you sign a deal for a cookbook and you have a rough idea of what you're going to do, but then you really need to figure it out. You know, they say, okay, go away, come up with 70 recipes. But do you have, I don't have 70 recipes off the top of my head.

And so it's kind of formulating all those ideas that you. on dog walks and in bed and putting them on a piece of paper, testing, testing, testing, and then actually seeing them come to fruition in a book is, is amazing. And even, you know, I tested them at home and how they looked on the final photo shoot was 10 times better because There's just that added element of pressure of, okay, this is the photo, you've got a beautiful camera and props and a food stylist and everything just takes, takes it to the next level.

And seeing it all come together because it's a long process, you know, it's By the time the book's out, probably about [00:31:00] 22 months, you know, it's close to two years of work until it finally comes out. And so to see that, regardless of how it performs or how many it sells, to have a physical copy of your book, uh, is a, is such an achievement.

Again, for someone as a self taught pastry chef, who eight years ago was shirtless cooking and had no idea what he was doing, to hold what I think is one of the most stunning patisserie books available is Such, uh, an accomplishment for me.

Roni: Yeah. Um, and the book really is beautiful. I got my copy in the mail a couple of days ago and my husband and I were flipping through it and he was even like, Oh my gosh, the photos in here are so pretty.

Matt: And I think, you know, you can be confident yourself and arrogant, but I look at it and think there's no book in baking that compares, even like physically quality wise, not even about the recipes and how it's written, but actually the physical paper and the way it's printed and the texture of [00:32:00] the cover.

I don't know any book that for that, you know, so cheap as well. Amazon knocked their price down so much. It's so cheap for the quality you get is really second to none. I think

Roni: Yeah, I actually, this is, um, you know, I mean, I, we love a lot of digital recipes and stuff, but there is something really special about a physical cookbook and the That there is like a, a really good texture and like the weightiness of the paper and stuff to this cookbook that I really like,

Matt: that's very kind. I appreciate that. I do. I love to see people's reaction when they get it and they see it for the first time. And I'm like, wow, like the quality, cause I didn't know really. What I was getting either, they kind of tell you, Oh, it's going to be this blue texture and there's going to be gold foil and we're going to use this, this, this paper, but I'm not, you know, I've never written a book.

I've got no idea what that stuff means. So I finally got it in the mail. So I was just thinking, Oh my goodness, this is premium. This feels. incredible. And I think when you flick through it, you know, it's matched with the quality of the photography and the fonts. [00:33:00] And there's a lot of decisions that go into deciding how it's going to look, but also I hope the recipes in there are approachable, even though they're photographed really beautifully and they look very clean.

There is a lot of stuff in there that, you know, anybody, anybody can do or someone looking just to level up their baking and do something more advanced and more professional. So I hope it covers a lot of grounds for a lot of different skills of bakers. And I think that's why it's quite a unique offering.

Roni: well, I think you did a good job, making actually like making the recipes approachable. So let's talk about that a little bit, because I think that this recipe book has. Um, it's unique in the, in the way that you have it formatted. So for all the listeners who haven't seen the book yet, um, each recipe has a tier one and a tier two version of the recipe.

So it's like the more basic to maybe like lower level intermediate version of the recipe, and then a more like upper intermediate to advanced version of maybe not the exact same recipe, cause there's [00:34:00] like some tweaks, you know, in different flavors or something, but, um, I thought that was so cool because.

Because the photos are gorgeous and some of the recipes are like, I don't feel like I could make this in a thousand years, but those are like the tier two level recipes. Whereas a lot of the tier one recipes, it's like, Oh, all I need is, you know, like some muffin tins and I can make, you know, my own, um, is it the financier?

Yeah, exactly. So, um, which one of my favorite desserts. So, uh, I just, uh, I really love that. So like, talk me through like, yeah, what were you, what was the process of doing that? And like, how did you decide what was going to be a tier one and what was going to be a tier two?

Matt: So again, goes back to kind of what I was talking when I, when I taught myself to bake initially, I just start with really simple recipes. I like cookies, breads, blah, blah, blah. And then as I followed a lot of people on social media, I saw these techniques and flavors and textures they were adding. And I thought, how do I take those [00:35:00] simple recipes that I'm now good at making, cookies and breads, and elevate them into something.

more professional. And so that was how I got better. It was taking simple recipes and elevating them with a new flavor or a new design or a color or a mold. And so that's what I wanted. to put through the book because I think it's a fantastic way of learning and getting better at baking. And so that tiered approach was my pitch, you know, for years I've had this idea and it was just finding the right publisher who would kind of run with it and really do it justice.

And so picking the recipes. It is like, you know, 70 recipes, more than 70 recipes is a lot, you know, it's really is a lot. And also having to ensure that it has that fundamental connection of tier one to tier two, there were definitely some nights where I was thinking, you know, how am I going to connect this?

How am I going to take this tier one cake and level it up? I have no, you know, I was changing designs at the last minute, changing piping nozzles or molds. [00:36:00] Um, it was honestly really difficult, but it was just about putting my favorite recipe. In a book. So again, it wasn't, I didn't want anything that was trendy or anything that I didn't really like to eat.

It was all just recipes that I love to eat and enjoy and would bake for myself. And taking you through that progression of, of tier ones, tier two.

Roni: Right? Yeah. When I was the, my first like look through of the book, actually, I think it's the very first cake recipe in the book is this like beautiful chocolate cake recipe. And the tier one recipe is just the cake in a loaf pan. And I flipped over to the tier two recipe. And I was like, wait, I'm These recipes, wait, this is like the same cake recipe because the second recipe is like this beautiful, you know, you could make it like a two tier cake kind of a thing.

I was like, Oh my gosh. Like to me, it It makes the second tier feel much more approachable to be like, Oh, well, if I could make the one on the loaf pan, like this is, it's literally just like putting it in a different style of a pan and making a little ganache. Um, [00:37:00] so that was really cool. Like that, just that instant realization of like, Oh, these two are related.

Like if I could do this one, which does seem so simple, probably I could try this second version. It

Matt: Exactly. I mean, even, even I was getting help, you know, styling that second cake, you know, it's, there's challenging elements to it, but it is that idea of. You know, it's just the same recipe. We're just reformatting it in a different shape and adding one extra skill level, which is, is making a ganache and actually what really makes that cake stunning is using a scalloped cake scraper.

So you could just create straight sides and pour a drip on it. But this scallop cake scraper, I think is a very. Kind of American grocery store supermarket feel, which I love and is really nostalgic for me having gone to America growing up. And so I love that kind of scalloped shop bought effect to the cake.

But again, it's, you know, it's just a simple fact of using that scraper instead of a flat edge scraper and it takes it to another level and makes [00:38:00] it look like something you buy from a bakery.

Roni: really does. Does writing was writing these recipes something that came natural for you like writing the recipes and writing the cookbook was that all something that came naturally for you? Was that like an additional skill to learn in the process of making the cookbook?

Matt: Yeah, that's a good. So when I first started writing recipes, I had a slightly different technique, which I still really enjoy to do is, you know, when you see a recipe, you know, they put the ingredients to the top and then they write a recipe. And, you know, if you get to the bottom of the recipe, you need to then scroll up to get the ingredients to the top.

So when I usually write recipes. Is I'll put the ingredients within each step. So, you know, you see, add the flour, sugar, and butter, and then you have the ingredients underneath that step, so you never have to look up again. With a book, it's not possible because there's not enough space. So that was how I originally kind of started recipe writing.

So I had to kind of adapt that format. Um, and so when we, when we wrote the book, we wanted to make sure the recipe ingredients you could see quite clearly kind of on the left hand side of the page. So you didn't have to [00:39:00] look up or cross or flick back or anything like that. But I guess there is an editor who edits the way things are written.

So, you know, you'll send a recipe that you think makes completely sense and is perfect. And then your editor will have a really specific format of the way the publisher wants something to sound. Let's say the publisher only uses sea salt flakes in all their books, it always says sea salt flakes. So you need to, you know, adapt the way you're writing.

But you learn kind of as you're going, as you submit your first 10 or 20 recipes, you see all the red marks across the paper. And then you kind of slowly adapt. And once you get to the end, you're kind of well versed in, uh, in writing recipes. But it was cutting out a lot of fluff. You know, I like to, like I said, be very conversational.

So it was cutting out wasted words that weren't an efficient use of paper and ink.

Roni: I could see it also being really helpful to have somebody who I don't know if your editor was a baker themselves, but I could see it [00:40:00] being really helpful to somebody who doesn't have like a high level of baking knowledge be able to. proof read the things that you're writing and say, this is actually too technical.

Or, you know, like this, somebody's going to read this recipe and be like, I don't know how to do this technique the way that you wrote it. Um, so I can see that being really helpful too, to just like have the second set of eyes to make sure that you're not using too much jargon in your recipe. Writing.

Matt: Absolutely. I think it's also nice to have their validation as well. So as well as writing a recipe, you have a blurb at the top that says, you know, I love this lemon travel cake because and writing those is really difficult because, you know, that's Very conversational and descriptive, and that's not what writing a recipe is about.

This is, you know, it's kind of selling the recipe. And so I wrote those and submitted them to her. And she was like, did you have someone write these for you? Like, these are really good. I was like, oh, really? Like, I thought they wouldn't make any sense at all. But actually she was like, these are great. You know, they really [00:41:00] flow with the book.

And she barely made any edits to them at all. I was like, oh, okay. Actually, I was probably better at it, better than I thought, but writing kind of introductions and explanations for eggs and sugar and flour, that stuff was tough, because it's like, how do I explain flour? Okay, here we go. I'm going to talk about protein and different types of flour, and you know, there was research on my end to make sure I was correct in what I was saying, because I might know it in my head, but actually putting it on paper, you know, a lot of things I had to double, double check.

Roni: Yeah, sure. Well, and I like those little descriptions that you have for the recipes as well, particularly because if you read the tier one, and then the tier two recipe, it's easy, like you do a good job of showing the connection between the two, which once again, I think makes the harder version of the recipe feel more approachable to be like, okay, if I've mastered this one, here's how this one is just slightly elevated.

Matt: Yeah, and I just like the idea of being able to almost [00:42:00] use the whole book, you know, a lot of recipe books I pick up, I'll pick one recipe and it's very isolated in what it is, it's not connected, whereas I feel like with the book, there's a journey that you can go through, you know, elevating, elevating your skills, you know, whether someone bakes the whole book, I don't know, but hopefully there's someone that picks up the book and maybe they just focus on four or six or eight recipes and they start in the tier one and they elevate through to tier two and they see, you know, that, that learning the purpose of the book really comes true for them.

And that, that would be really special for me for sure.

Roni: Are there any particular recipes that you want to like highlight or talk about that you just really

Matt: I've already talked about the lemon tarts. I won't, I won't mention that again, but definitely try the lemon tart. Uh, I'm also a really big fan of the chocolate cake, like you said, so. The first recipe I said earlier was a chocolate orange cake that I made from Nigella, and it was so bad. So I had to make a chocolate orange cake for the book [00:43:00] to kind of, I don't know, make up for the disaster I had the first time I ever started baking.

So that chocolate orange cake is really stunning, and also a very soft chocolatey sponge. And kind of as you work your way towards the end of the book, The kind of final, probably three or four recipes, like, are the pinnacle of the book. You know, these are the, you're ready, you're so advanced, this is it, you're going to take these on, you've mastered everything, you're so confident.

And there's a laminated brioche cube in there, which is actually on the covers of the book. So if you flick the book open, you'll see this kind of honeycomb structure, and that's the inside of the brioche cube. And it's a really challenging recipe, like I will not lie, but it is stunning because it's like a croissant, but baked in a perfect cube mold.

And when you cut it open, you get this amazing lamination inside and you fill it with a diplomat cream. And it is just for me, the epitome of talent. Like if you can produce that at [00:44:00] home, which you can do, uh, you know, it's better than any bakery you'll go to. It's just. stunning. So for me, that's the real kind of crescendo of the book.

I'm really proud of that recipe because it took me so long to figure out how to do it. Oh my goodness.

Roni: Yeah, that recipe to me looks like a deceptively hard recipe. Like when you look at the, when you look at the brioche cube, you're kind of like, okay, it's, you know, it's a, it's a loaf of bread in a cube shape. And then when you see it cut open, it's like, oh wow, the, like the air pockets in there with the lamination and everything.

I can see how that would be incredibly challenging.

Matt: It is definitely difficult and I was really umming and ahhing about whether I should put it in because it's one of those things where there's a few scraps left over and you need the right tin and you've got to be, have your butter at the right temperature. And if you do it in the summer, it's going to be difficult, but I wanted to have that kind of those few recipes at the end that were really, yeah, like I said, the crescendo of the book and just the [00:45:00] pinnacle of talent and showing you that you can create.

Because for me, it's all about showing that. You can create professional looking recipes at home. You can make stuff better than a bakery and you can do it yourself once you've got the skills and the confidence and the knowledge. And so it's like, right, we're going to finish on this. This might be three pages long, but you guys, someone will make it and I'm going to be so happy to see it when they, when they do it.

Roni: Yeah, I love that. I really hope that you get tagged on Instagram or something when somebody masters that recipe.

Matt: Yes, the cube. Yeah, yeah. We had a lot of fun shooting it. That recipe was, when it was the cube day, everyone was just like, oh my goodness, the cube, because I kind of prepared them at home because trying to do it on set was going to be way too stressful. So I prepared them at home the night before, baked them, and then you don't know if you've got the lamination right until you cut into it.

So it was a real mystery moment there when I cut open them and the photographer was like, yes, we got it. I was like, oh my goodness.

Roni: amazing. [00:46:00] Um, is there anything that we missed that you wanted to make sure you mentioned?

Matt: I don't think so. I'm going to be in the, I'm going to be in the States kind of, um, mid September, so I'm going to be doing a pop up, so just stay tuned for that. I don't, generally don't bake for people, so this will be my first stateside pop up. So I've got really good friends, um, Brian Ford, who, his name's Artisan

Roni: Yeah, he makes great. I have his sourdough book. Yeah.

Matt: Yes, yes. So we're really good friends. We were on Food Network together. Um, you know, back when he was just starting and he was so kind of fresh into it and now he's just exploded. And so we're going to do a little collaboration together, which is going to be really fun. So yes, I think that's probably the big thing as well as a book because I'll be in the States.

So hopefully doing like some meet meetups in New York City and doing some baking. So look out for that if you're stateside.

Roni: Excellent. Why don't you tell everybody where they can find you online and where they will potentially be able to buy your [00:47:00] book?

Matt: Sure, yeah. So if you search into any social platform, just type in Matt Adlard, which is A D L A R D. I should hopefully pop up. There should only be one of me. And the book is available pretty much everywhere. So you can go to Barnes Noble in the U. S. Amazon will have it. Absolutely everywhere, uh, in the UK, you know, Waterstone, W.

H. Smith, so anywhere that, any big book retailer, um, and hopefully lots of independent shops will also, also have it, and there should be signed copies available. So if, if you want a signed copy, just check my Instagram, because I'm sure I'll be announcing it, uh, and they'll be available. I have a very squiggly signature, though.

I've been doing it this week, and I think, I mean, this signature, I've had it since I was like 12, and it the book justice. Ha ha ha. So apologies if you get a signed copy and you think, what's his, what's his signature?

Roni: Well, we'll make sure we have a link in the show notes for everybody to check out the book and buy it. Um, I think it's beautiful and I think that, uh, it's going to be a great addition to [00:48:00] anybody's cookbook

library. 

Matt: Even if you don't bake from it, it's going to look good in

Roni: This is true.

Matt: Yes. It's a great coffee table book as well, you know. Oh yeah, I'll flick through that. I won't bake the brioche cube, but I'm going to look at it.

Roni: Matt, thanks so much for joining me today. It's been so nice to talk to you.

Matt: Thank you. It was a real honour. Thank you. Thank you. 

Roni: As always, thanks for tuning into today's episode. I hope you enjoyed this conversation that I had with Matt. He is such a lovely person to talk to. We're going to have links to his book as well as his social channels in the episode description. So if you want to check out his beautiful book, Uh, you will be able to find a link there. And if you'd like to support the plan to eat

podcast, share this episode with a friend and subscribe on whatever platform you listen to your podcasts. Thanks again for listening. [00:49:00]