Spiritual Guerrilla Warfare | with Athena Dean Holtz

“I kept saying, ‘I forgive them… I forgive them…’ but it wasn’t working.”

That moment led Athena Dean Holtz into a deeper realization: sometimes the conflict we think we’re fighting with people has a different layer entirely. When believers misidentify the battle, we end up exhausted, reactive, and stuck in cycles we can’t seem to break.

In this episode, Athena, author of No Longer Hidden: You Cannot Resist What You Do Not Recognize, shares how learning to recognize spiritual deception helped her understand a painful betrayal in ministry — and why discernment, not fear, is the key to standing firm.

We explore:

• How hidden patterns of deception can quietly shape conflict
• Why misidentifying the battle keeps believers stuck in reaction mode
• The difference between ignoring spiritual warfare and seeing it everywhere
• How knowing Scripture in context strengthens discernment
• Why mature believers must learn to test teaching for themselves instead of outsourcing authority
• How recognition can change the way we respond to betrayal, pain, and pressure

If you’ve ever felt like you’re fighting the same battles over and over, this episode invites you to step back and ask a deeper question: what if the real battle isn’t the one you think it is?

—

Learn more about Athena and her work at redemption-press.com and athenaholtzspeaks.com.

If you care about Christian communication done with more creativity and integrity, come see what we’re building at contrarytopopular.com. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I kept saying, okay, I forgive them, I forgive them.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

But why isn't this working, this forgiveness thing? I mean, it looks like spiritual whack-a-bole. When we think about conflict, a lot of times the conversation turns toward the people involved who hurt us, who betrayed us, who we are supposed to forgive. But do we spend too much time misidentifying the battle in the first place? Today I'm talking with Athena Dean Holtz, founder of Redemption Press and author of the book No Longer Hidden. You cannot resist what you do not recognize. I'm Julianne Rhodes, and this is Contrary to Popular. Athena, thank you so much for joining me today. You share a story where God was able to sort of reframe what was going on spiritually beneath a conflict that you were having. Can you tell us more about that story?

SPEAKER_01 0:53

I found myself about a year and a half out of a very painful betrayal by a younger pastor and his wife that my husband asked to come in to do a church merger. My husband's 78. He knew he didn't want to just drop dead and have his 38-year congregation just scattered. He wanted to make sure they would be in good hands. And so maybe it would take five years to kind of slowly step back. So uh about a year into it, all of a sudden, after the congregation voted, yes, let's do this. Um, everything switched and it was a very painful ousting. We're like, what just happened? I mean, it was really alarming. And I kept saying, okay, I forgive them, I forgive them. I'm going through all the, you know, I'm not gonna go to bed mad because if I go to bed mad, I give the enemy a foothold. That's right there in scripture. I'm not gonna do that. But after two years of struggling with, like, why isn't this working? This forgiveness thing, because I it was just always things were coming back, memories, or someone says something online and it triggered, you know, just all these things. I'm not sure where the scripture is, but it says, Neither will I forgive you unless you forgive from your heart. So the from your heart thing was like a big deal. So I'm like, okay, Lord, I'm not able to do that. You gotta help me here just because I don't know how to make this work. I've been saying all the right words, but it ain't working. And the first thing I heard as I was praying over that was, your battle is not with flesh and blood. I'm like, whoa. So that was kind of realizing, okay, there is a spirit working here, and it's the same MO. And when I realized that, I mean, it was like the Lord just whispered, you cannot resist what you do not recognize. Because I mean, I was deceived by the same unholy spirit that ruled that husband and wife.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Now, you've mentioned that the spiritual battle is something like guerrilla warfare. Can you talk more about that?

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Guerrilla warfare, which was seen in the the adversary of the United States, the Viet Cong, they did not use conventional warfare where you know you're out in the open, you got your weapon, you're pointing it at someone who can see you. Gorilla warfare is very sneaky. It's not just the physical combat, although it is, but it has that psychological warfare element to it. And I was just then learning about post-traumatic stress and why someone going through what Vietnam veterans went through would experience it, and seeing the parallels between how the Viet Cong operated and some of the things that they did as their strategies of warfare and seeing how that is like exactly how the enemy operates. The enemy of our souls, the body of Christ, they need to understand this. It's not usually something that's even on our radar. Um, one was I saw all the time authors who God has called to write, they get, you know, the imposter syndrome thing, they hear the narrative. Who do you think you are? No one's gonna want to read your book. Almost every single author I talk to, they repeat the same. I mean, it's like the the enemy is not very original. And so realizing okay, we need to help authors not fall for those lies, understand the truth, stand against it. And so that was the beginning of okay, this is where that teaching would be so helpful.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

So, as you began to see this pattern of how the enemy works, how did that change your tactics for how you deal with him?

SPEAKER_01 5:18

It completely changed everything because it was like there, but by the grace of God, go I you're acting badly, but you're being controlled by an unholy spirit, which I was for 13 years. So I could have compassion, I could have grace. Does that mean I trust them? No, it doesn't, but I was able in my heart to just say, I forgive them, I'm not gonna hold their bad behavior against them because they're as much of a pawn as I was, and it was just so liberating. I finally was able to forgive them and not be just yanked around. I mean, it was like spiritual whack-a-mole. I'm overhearing every time you get that down back under control, something else pops up. And I mean, it was immediate. That was gone. I was able to forgive, I was able to tell the story without feeling that anger bubbling up, and it has it has just given me freedom.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

So, what outcome would you say is realistic for your readers to expect when they start battling in the spiritual realm, this guerrilla warfare? Like, should they expect that all the pushback from the enemy is gonna stop, or that they'll just be able to squash it quickly? Or what's the expectation?

SPEAKER_01 6:48

That's a great question. God is the one who fights our battles, and the better we know scripture, that is the best weapon to stand on because the enemy's very sneaky, he knows our sinful nature better than we do, and we have to become aware of how he operates in us. So to identify, okay, this is where I'm vulnerable, this is how he gets me every time. So that's the recognition part, and to realize, I mean, scripture says, humble yourself before God, resist the devil, and he has to flee. And so humbling ourselves, saying, Okay, Lord, I'm not the one who can make this all this go away, but you are, and I trust you to do that because greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world. And so you're gonna fight, you're at the right hand of the Father, ever interceding for me, and you're gonna fight this battle for me. And I trust you to do it, and I stand firm and resist, which is what we're told to do. See it, recognize it, and then find the scripture that will take that lie and demolish it with that truth, and to just realize all the subtle ways that the enemy tries to take us out. And if we don't recognize it, then we really can get sidelined. I mean, he can't take us to hell, you know, he can't do that, but he can certainly try and take us out, ruin our testimony, all sorts of things. In fact, in Daniel 725, it says, and he will speak against the most high and wear down the saints of the highest one, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law. That's like twisting scripture, and they will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. But the part about wearing down the saints, that is such a strategy that moves us into burnout, it moves us into just fleshly indulgence because we just can't stand the stress that we're under. I know I will go eat unhealthy food instead of just denying my flesh and saying, Okay, Lord, I want to process through this pain and I need your help to do it and to see, you know, the enemy wants to wear me out. And you're the strength in my weakness, God. And so I need you to be that right now because I'm not doing well. I just think the reader will have greater recognition of the battle at hand and have a better idea how to stand firm and resist. Unfortunately, the enemy has the church kind of we're either in this extreme, which is, hey, I'm saved. I don't need to worry about the enemy. What's what's the big deal? That's that's goofy, that's woo-woo. And then you got on the other end, you know, there's a demon under every doorknob, and you know, I'm the person who can fix it, or you know, you run around the different deliverance ministries to try and get things fixed. And God doesn't want either one of those extremes, he wants us in truth, understanding that he is the one that will do battle, and that we have to stand firm on the truth. The better we understand the truth in the context, not one line out of context. That's that's when it gets twisted. That is what we need to be able to do to stand firm in these last days.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Yeah, that's so good. So, one of the topics I've been exploring is the ways that Christians can become confident disciples that are mature in the faith, kind of like the meat versus milk thing, you know. And I guess when when they aren't as mature, one of the things I see happening is that they're almost outsourcing authority to their pastor, their small group leader, their husband, whoever is in that position. And I just wondered if you could speak to that. And do you see an importance there in a believer as an individual feeling that they have permission to hold their own authority as a son or daughter of the king?

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Absolutely. And that what I see at work in what you just described is so often we are. I I mean, I know I came out of that 13 years going, what was how did I get there? And how did I end up there? And how did I believe all that? And the first thing was I didn't know the difference between scripture in context and out of context. I was not a Berean. That's on me. I couldn't point the finger at them. No, I did not challenge things that were said from the pulpit, quoting a scripture by going back and looking, where is it in the word? And did it really even mean what they were trying to say that it meant? And so that, I mean, women need to be Bereans just as much as men do. I mean, I'm even now finding myself learning biblical integrity and biblical understanding that just because there's something described in the Bible doesn't mean that it is prescribed for us to do now. And so many cult leaders and high control organizations with strong pastors, they don't want us to question, they don't want us to learn the truth about what script, you know, scripture is supposed to show us who God is, not tell us every little thing we're supposed to do in our life. And, you know, oh, should I drink Pepsi or Coke? Lord, tell me, you know, I mean, it's that bizarre sometimes in some of those types of organizations. But I think the thing that you hit on here is what I found out early on when we're realizing this PTSD is not just the veterans, it's ours too. And we were trying to get like, what is the spiritual aspect? I mean, we could see the physical things that go on when women get triggered. We saw the emotional, you know, over or underreaction, fight or flight, those things. But what was the spiritual thing that was at play when women have had trauma that's never been processed? And the Lord took us, there were three veteran wives. We all went away for a weekend to a cabin. And he, the scripture that came up that was the one he wanted us to focus on, was Psalm 147, where it says he heals the brokenhearted, binds up their wounds. And the word wounds just like jumped off the page at me. I'm like, okay, what's that? So I go to the back in the Hebrew because that was in the Old Testament, so it's got the Hebrew root. And I had at that point been saying, verbalizing, we are being controlled by our trauma, like it controls us because it we get triggered and we're not responding in a healthy, mature way. And so we look up the word wound in the Hebrew and it says, it is an idol. And we're like, oh my goodness, there it is. That is the spiritual dynamic that is going on when you have PTSD and it and it's not been really processed or healed or any of those things. And it was like, thank you, Lord, because I can repent for that, even though I wasn't doing it on purpose. I wasn't like being an idolater on purpose. No, there were many times where he wanted to come in and heal me, but my medication of choice was work. I would go do that instead. So just to understand that truth, that the more wounded we are, the easier we're going to be deceived. Just like you're saying, thinking they have to go to their pastor to give them the okay to think for themselves or any of that stuff, that's the deception that the enemy wants to keep us under. And so he wants to keep us away from being healed, because then we're just stronger and more confident in what God has taught us.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Yeah, that's beautiful. How do you feel like you've gone about as a leader, as an influencer, to keep your reader thinking for themselves, making decisions for themselves, making this personal, drawing their own conclusions, getting to scripture themselves, all these things so that they can build confidence and discernment and not just complying and agreeing with whatever you say they should believe. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

That is a great question. Well, I I actually added questions at the end of each chapter where it's not just a yes or no kind of soul in the blank question. It's a question that's based on, they call it Bloom's Taxonomy, which is a way of really applying and reflecting and actually the kind of questions that can provide transformation because you're not just buying what someone's telling you, you're actually questioning it and asking God for a sense of direction. So I just think it's so important to have that aspect whenever you're telling a hard story, and people are going to see themselves in it in some way or another. And then to encourage them to reflect on what at what point in your life did you feel like maybe you moved away from this or you shied away from this? I mean, I'm super transparent and I talk about my desire to get away from pain and not have to process it. I mean, I'll just admit it to people, thinking if somebody doesn't answer me right away, they're mad at me. I think that's important for us to be honest about our shortcomings, but then to point back to scripture. I mean, this is where you need to dig into the scripture for yourself and find those scriptures that are going to keep you strong and not just sliding behind whoever you're following. The problem is really where most people resonate. When we're having incredible mountaintop experiences, they don't usually go, ooh, you understand me. It's when we're in the pit and you know, allowed to be there for whatever length of time that God uses it to sanctify us and do all the things that He does, bring gold out of the ashes. I think that is kind of the pain point where most readers that are struggling and going through hard things are gonna find us as someone they can trust. And then, you know, as we do move into the solutions and what we learn from it. And I mean, I think back to everything I lost in that 13 years, I wouldn't trade that, which sounds weird because of how horrific it was. I used to be pretty shallow, Christian, let's put it that way, before that all happened, and God really used it to increase the compassion and the desire to see people free of the lies of the enemy. You know, a lot of movements within Christianity don't like to talk about sin or suffering or any of that. And like that is where God meets us in the most amazing ways. I don't want to get rid of that.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Yeah, absolutely. What you're saying reminds me of something that I often talk to authors about is the difference, and this comes from marketing, is the difference between a felt need and a deep need, or a felt problem and a deep problem. In other words, the felt problem is the one that the reader is very aware of, why they went shopping for a book in the first place. The deeper problem is the one maybe they haven't discovered yet that you you know because you are up at that mountaintop or further up the mountain than they are, and so you can see it. And so I guess my question maybe for you would be as a publisher, as an author, can you explain if you see an importance to really identifying that felt problem, like figuring out where the reader is when they're starting this journey?

SPEAKER_01 20:06

As an author, that's our job to make sure we are really clear on who our reader is and who that audience is that God has asked us to nurture, pour into, provide some real help and pointing toward some real lasting transformation instead of just kind of feel good, really crafting in my own heart and mind who that person is that needs the hope that my message will bring. And who is it? God is saying, These are your people. You do not have to be an amazing writer to be able to take the story God's given you and have it go way beyond your reach and into the lives of others who don't know you. If the enemy does not, if your story is going to impact people, he is not gonna be happy about that. So any doubts that you have about writing it, about actually taking what you have, maybe you've already written it, but you look at it and go, oh no, it's embarrassing. But to be able to just surrender that and say, Lord, I'm gonna go through this process to just see if these are doors you're opening and see what you want to do because we're gonna hear the negative narrative. We just are like I never even went to English class. I don't even know what a dangling participle is. I would just say, take the next step and don't be embarrassed. It's it doesn't have to be perfect to show it to someone that you could trust. Uh, we have a free manuscript review that we do for every single person that we consider. We don't publish everybody that comes to our doors. Um, but we feel like, regardless of where you go from there, to have some honest. Feedback is helpful and potentially could end up being something where we become partners and work together on your project. But even just that, it helps us see where we're on track and maybe where we need some work. It's important for us to be trustworthy and to be able to give you honest feedback and not mislead you on what it's going to take to really get it into the hands of those who need to read it.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Yeah, that sounds really valuable, just getting a review and getting some free advice on where to go from there. That's that's exactly that's really cool. So tell us one more time the name of your book and where people can grab that.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

All right. It's no longer hidden. You cannot resist what you do not recognize. It is on Amazon, it's also on my website, on Redemption Press's website.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

It is in bookstores across the country as well. Awesome. Dina, it was so good to get to know you. Thank you so much for your time. This has been great.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Oh, it has been a blessing. Thank you so much for having me on.