Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Charles and Dan are just two guys talking about relationships, masculinity, and authenticity. Join them as they discuss books and media, as well as their (sometimes messy) personal stories, to encourage men to join the fight for their mental, physical, and emotional health--because a world of healthy, resilient men is a thriving and more secure world for everyone.
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
The White Lotus: Bad Dads and Broken Sons
Forget paradise—these men brought their baggage. Charles and Dan break down Timothy Ratliff’s fast-unraveling world, where wealth might not shield him from family fallout (or federal charges). Saxon proves being nakedly honest can just mean being nakedly weird, while Lockie navigates spirituality, sexuality, and sibling sabotage—awkwardly. Rick tries meditation, but mostly finds more reasons to be cynical, especially toward the woman who loves him. Meanwhile, Guy’s romantic pitch skips way too many steps, showing exactly why nice guys finish lunch alone.
Join Charles and Dan as they unpack masculinity’s most uncomfortable luggage: failed fathers, misguided sons, and the friction when money can't buy emotional IQ. Sunscreen won't protect these characters from facing themselves—especially when their biggest problems lie beneath their linen shirts and luxury facades.
Pull up a pool chair and listen at your own emotional risk.
nothing comes from nothing, right. And then there's like almost like a standoff, like where like he's just like set in his ways and you shoot. You see the the two extremes of pessimism and optimism optimism from her pessimism.
Charles:And then the scene closes out where they're just staring at each other and they're not saying anything yeah, not, and not just I mean not, not just pessimism, right to the point I'd say nihilism, where this guy and it's like you wonder, you wonder what his life outside of the resort must look like. I mean, when you feel that way about yourself and you feel that way about the world. Hey everyone, Charles, here in this episode of the mindfully masculine podcast, Dan and I ding into season three, episode two of the white Lotus and episode we're calling bad Dads and Broken Sons. We're talking about what happens when masculine identity is built on money, status or control and what it looks like when those things start to fall.
Charles:Apart From Timothy Ratliff's unraveling self-image, to Rick's brooding nihilism in a Thai meditation hut, to a lot of weird energy between brothers who maybe need better boundaries we, to a lot of weird energy between brothers who maybe need better boundaries We've got a lot to unpack. If you're watching the White Lotus and wondering what it's really saying about men, masculinity and modern identity, you're in the right place. And if you want full audio and video episodes plus bonus content, anything else we feel like putting out into the world head over to mindfullymasculinecom, let's get into it out into the world head over to mindfullymasculinecom.
Dan:Let's get into it. Good morning.
Charles:How are you, charles? I'm well, dan, thank you. I'm a little chilly, hence the outerwear this morning. It is a little chilly this morning. I fear it's probably our worst cool spell that we're going to have. If I say worst, I mean last, our last cool spell before Florida summer kicks in and I'm miserable and complaining for months and months. Florida summer kicks in and I'm miserable and complaining for months and months.
Dan:I don't know. This week it looked like it's gonna be. It's still gonna be pretty, pretty mild that'd be nice.
Charles:A nice cool easter time of year would be would be lovely, but I I've been trained to not expect it, so we'll see. So we're going to talk about episode two of season three of white lotus, which dan and I both re-watched very recently. We're recording this on thursday, april the 10th. The finale happened on sunday, which I have seen. Dan has not yet seen. So I will work hard not to I'm not gonna spoil anything past episode two. You better not to the best of my ability. I'm gonna be upset, but the finale was extremely well done, I found like good art. It made me feel a lot of things Okay, and so I really appreciate the way I was saying in our last episode I don't know how he's going to tie all this stuff together.
Charles:I was going to say ISO, that's a challenge. Pulled it off though. Well done. I really appreciated the work that he did. I'd be referring to mike white, the series creator. He did. Yeah, it was. It was phenomenal.
Charles:Definitely there were things I liked, things I didn't like, but it was still well done.
Charles:It wasn't like I don't like this because he didn't do it good. It was like I don't like this because of what he's doing to like either the good things he's doing to characters I don't like or the bad things he's doing to characters I do like he definitely was pulling on the strings and okay, phenomenal, really, really enjoyed it. Can't, can't wait to discuss it with you, both on the show and off the show, once you've had a chance to watch it. But that guy is a he's an amazing filmmaker. I really I like the way and we'll talk about in this episode but the way he he just sets up these archetypes where it's like, okay, I know who that guy is, I know what that guy is and I know what to expect from him. Yeah, and you get that. But then he also is able to put in little things that you weren't expecting in a way that does not feel inauthentic to to who he's established the character to be okay and so so it's a natural progression or transition but with but still with surprises.
Charles:Yeah, or it's like timothy ratliff is who. I thought timothy ratliff was the whole time, but then okay so it's not like a sharp veer to the left or whatever, which is what I feel. Come on, I am like hate when shows did you?
Dan:yeah, like we're hiding up everybody has an epiphany right, exactly. And and now they're transformed right where.
Charles:Yeah, it doesn't really happen that way on this show. All right, I I really appreciate. So let's talk about, we'll go with the ratliff family first. So timothy, the dad in episode two, what we see from him, and again we're going to spoil, we're going to say what happens in this episode. So if you haven't seen it yet, stop listening, watch episode two and then come back. We go a little bit deeper into what seems to be unspooling as far as his life, his professional life, goes. He talks to his office, finds out that there's another reporter from another major newspaper trying to talk to him, which is never, never good. I mean, that doesn't usually happen for good reasons. That happens for not great reasons. And then he finally is able to make contact with his previous business partner. The two, him and this other guy, went in on this, either created a fund or something together Kenny, kenny, yeah, and kenny was voiced by, uh, short round from temple of doom, oh my god, who we also know from everything, everywhere all at once yeah, yeah, wasn't he goonies?
Charles:he was at goonies as well yeah what's? What's his name?
Dan:I need to look it up data, wasn't he data and goonies?
Charles:I have have not seen Goonies since.
Dan:Okay.
Charles:Yeah, it's like it came out, I think he was yeah, I think he was known as data. Let me see. So I don't remember much about it.
Dan:Oh my God, I'm definitely not remembering. Maybe I'm mixing him up with Star Trek, but I'm pretty sure his name, or his name, his name or his nickname. Now we'll. We'll clean this up in post yes, it was.
Charles:It was data. Oh, my god, look at that once in a while my memory works. He hi, he hi. Kwan is the actor's name.
Dan:Yeah, so he, I did not know that was okay yeah, it's interesting what they but don't say too much about, because they haven't shown him yet. For the ones that I've seen, they haven't shown him at all.
Charles:They never show him, and him and professor scott gallay, who we talk about frequently, have only been voice actors on season three of White Lotus. Okay, in fact, in this episode I mean that's not really much of a spoiler Timothy is on the phone trying to get a lawyer on the phone. Like I need a lawyer right now.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:The lawyer he ends up talking to is voiced by professor scott galloway from. He's got a few podcasts that I like listen to. He speaks a lot about masculinity and the crisis of young men and all this stuff. And, yeah, he's. I'm often sharing some of his clips on our social media for the podcast. And, yeah, he plays. He's one of the voice actors that's just on the other side of the phone that you never see. And so is Kehoe Kwan, he, yeah. So, anyway, him and Ratliff partnered together to, I believe, start some sort of a fund, and then Ratliff mentions a couple things about it.
Charles:It was apparently involved in bribery and money laundering which you know is not good, and also only made him 10 million dollars. That really put things in perspective. I can't believe I got myself into this trouble for only 10 million dollars so you said they're doing well.
Dan:But then when he drops that bomb, you're like oh okay, now I really understand how perhaps isolated or like that they, that family, is reality?
Charles:Do they mention where they live, like what part of the U S? They live in North Carolina. They live in North Carolina. I know they went to school there, but I didn't know.
Dan:I think they still live.
Charles:Okay, yeah, so it's possible, it's a whole thing. They could be worth a billion dollars. I mean when, when you talk that way about $10 million, like he could be like one of these billion-dollar fund managers that you know fastest growing grass in America right now is the billionaire class, oh my God, yeah. Then year to year, from pretty much every year, from COVID, like the number of billionaires in our country is just kind of hockey stick growth, as they like to say.
Dan:Interesting.
Charles:Yeah, I'd like to know what industries those are from I think I, I suspect it's mostly financial management, people who, people who are in the finance industry, I don't, I don't know that it's manufacturing entrepreneurs or yeah, or you tech, it might be tech, but I, I suspect it's wealth management. Okay, but we'll, yeah, I can, I can check, yeah, I'm curious. So they, they could be worth that, that family could, he could be writing them to be worth that much. But certainly I'm trying to think how much money I'd have to say, I'd have to have to say I only made 10 million off this. Yeah, at least 500 million, I would think, probably. I think I'd have to be worth half a billion to scoff at 10 million.
Dan:now that's the thing too is like all right, how much you're worth versus what you're bringing in every year. That probably would be a bigger indicator for me, not necessarily what you got stocked away, but like what you're bringing in. And anyway, regardless, it's a lot of money for him to go get upset.
Charles:Like this was not worth it. Yeah, I wasted my time and so, yeah, he's acting like the noose is starting to tighten and you're seeing him behave that way with both the staff and his family. His family he's kind of just. He's not getting as sharp with his family. He's more like a little disconnected, preoccupied. That seems to be ramping up, but when it comes to his interactions with the staff, he's willing to get short and rude with them yeah, especially the.
Dan:I remember the assistant's name, or basically she comes around for the phone.
Charles:So I was timing exactly, yeah and yeah, something like you'd be a lot less stressed yeah, if you gave me your phone I'd be less stressed. You stopped, that's good, yeah, and you can tell it's. It's really yeah, starting to. And then he's complaining about the, the time change and how he's on day is night, night is down, exactly, yeah, yeah, so so I mean listen, I, I heard a long you knew.
Dan:You knew this going in, you're going to freaking the other side of the world. It shouldn't be. Uh, it normally wouldn't be that big of a deal, but considering the stress that he's under right, that's where you're kind of like oh my god, the time zone's driving me nuts like really and in in classic maladaptive behavior.
Charles:When he starts feeling the pressure on it, he's willing to, in very passive ways, start blaming his daughter for it, like this is your fault. We're here because of your thesis and your your. This inconvenience is your fault, like not the fact that I engaged in dishonest, illegal business practices X number of years ago Five years ago, I think it was. No, that's the problem here is that I can't get people on the phone.
Dan:Well, okay, so from that episode it wasn't clear to me whether it was in the past or still was occurring, because it sounded like it was still kind of happening along fund might be open.
Charles:That's true. He claimed he hadn't talked to this kenny guy in four or five years right, but I think that was a fucking lie.
Charles:It might have been yeah, it might have been a lie. Or that may have been when they the fund was, the fund's inception might have been five years ago. And then look, I mean, if you, if you start a fund and the basis is bribery and money laundering, that's the, the underlying structure of the, you may not want to have a lot of interaction with the guy that you started it with. Yeah, so I maybe I got the impression that this was something they did a while ago okay, but you're right, I also did.
Dan:Yeah, it does feel like, so I didn't believe probably an ongoing thing right when the newspaper from the new york times was asking about kenny, he's like oh, I haven't talked to him in so many years. I know he's in brunei. It just sounded. He came across as lying to me, like so that's. Initially I was just like, and then for him to like get right on the phone with kenny. It took some time to get him on the phone right but but at the same time it seemed like there was a familiarity there based on the conversation, where it sounded like they talk they hadn't been four years since they had a last conversation.
Charles:Yeah, you might be right about I don't know, but they, they left the kind of they've been, I think, for people to figure it out. And kenny's not doing. Well, kenny's, I mean this timothy's threatening him like if you sell me out, I'm gonna kill you, and kenny's like I'm gonna kill myself, and then the. And then he's like you do it like he's to kiss himself.
Charles:He's like yeah, you better, kind of thing which is not all the mentally healthy people I know are not encouraging others to kill themselves, so that's obviously maladaptive, maladjusted behavior as well. When life throws you problems, encouraging other people to kill themselves is not usually the best way to solve those problems, but it is a way to show how falling apart this guy is and and, frankly, how not resilient he is. I I think it's not the fact that he might go to prison that, I think, is freaking timothy ratliff out. I think it's the number of steps down his life would take if he ended up there. You know what I'm saying and also he's so his.
Dan:He clearly cares more about his occupation and his job than, I think, his family and other things of life. So that's his world and he, if he gets convicted, there's never. He's not going back, he's not going to be able to be back and and do what he's doing the finance space anymore.
Charles:Yeah either exactly. And, yeah, his world is his identity, his status. I think his family is some of that, but I think most of it is is his wealth, his success, his business, and so, yeah, I think he's feeling like okay, this and the impression, his reputation, his wife, like, talked about it.
Dan:It's just like you did it, like you, you made all the money, you've got an awesome family, you've accomplished everything kind of thing and so like.
Charles:And I I hear all the time from people what a good man you are, and so all that like yeah, is going to be completely shattered yeah, it really does come down to identity and who you think you are and, uh, and that seems to be the challenge, the stumbling point for a lot of the guys on this show let's talk about Saxon Saxon's continuing to act weird in this episode in different ways. I mean number one if you're bunking with your little brother, are you sleeping completely naked?
Dan:No, I'm not no.
Charles:I mean, you and I have shared multiple hotel rooms and neither one of us has stripped all the way down and just, oh, I just sleep. I just sleep naked. This is just what I do.
Dan:So now this is your problem too yeah, I kept my socks on, so you know, yeah, exactly and I never took off the fedora.
Charles:Yeah, no, that that's freak, that's very, that's very. You're sharing a room with your brother and sleep in a in a warm tropical environment, especially where toss it and turn it and throw in the sheets off yourself in your sleep is highly likely. So that's again weird stuff about nudity and sexuality with this family. And yeah, it just. He has an older sibling.
Charles:Don't sleep completely naked with your as a younger sibling don't sleep, it just gives me weird vibes. Yeah, yeah. And then let's see what else did he do? That was weird. There was something else that we saw oh, joking about not getting a happy ending for his massage. Well, that joke in front of his whole family. Yeah, and mom has been fit like like a little too much. Let it be a function of her being on drugs so that that could be a factor. Her being a lorazepam addict, right, might be prompting those weird, or her weird, her weirdness around sexuality and possible previous trauma could be what? Right, like her lorazepam addiction could be like chicken or the egg. We don't.
Dan:Yeah, it's kind of like it's almost like she'd never heard that joke before, right, everybody. I mean massage and happy ending stuff, and it was just like yeah, maybe the part of maybe that's to kind of reflect how weird she is about sex in general, like that's kind of new to her.
Charles:Let that, that oh, you should be like a happy ending or or still so fresh, not new to me but I'm gonna have this exaggerated reaction to it to act like it is what?
Charles:this is crazy like, yeah, it was definitely weird. So, um, so, that was weird. Weird. But him joking about the happy ending, weird sleeping naked. And then also the. I like how he kind of looks down on drug use. Meanwhile the little sister points out that he's popping at her all constantly and he's like that's not drug use, right I do to get shit done right. Yeah, it's, it's. It is interesting how I mean both loraz caffeine.
Dan:Caffeine can be considered a drug too. I mean, it's all.
Charles:It all does change your state yeah, but but yeah, when it comes to pharmaceuticals in particular, it is interesting how I mean lorazepam is something she gets from her doctor, adderall something he gets from a doctor? Almost certainly yeah, and we do kind of look at uppers and downers a little bit differently in our society, where at least maybe that's the people who use uppers look down on the people who use downers, and I'll bet the people who use downers look I don't think you can generalize like that, but Well, he was using uppers and he was definitely looking.
Charles:He was speaking against his mom using lorazepam. Okay, and I mean I think we all, I think people do. I think you can generalize that when people land on a drug of choice, if they're going to look down at all, they're not going to look down on their own drug of choice, they're going to look down on the people that use the other stuff. And I was getting that from.
Dan:Saxon for sure. Identity of somebody who works hard, gets stuff done, is active. Meanwhile he sees his mom basically fall asleep at the table right, and so I think there could be some judgment related to the end result of the drug that you're taking as well, and then just saying, oh, I'm not a drug user and maybe he's thinking drugs are only stuff that inhibits you and brings you down. Yeah right, so it's still.
Charles:Yeah, you know it's I.
Charles:I look down on people who cope with life using a method other than the method that I use, because the method that I use that's just smart, that's a life hack, that's the right way to do to do life where the way these other people do it is not where I mean I and I do a little bit of this myself too.
Charles:Whenever I've noticed recently, whenever I visit sort of bigger cities and you walk around in downtown areas and what I've been experiencing lately, it's like everybody reeks of weed everywhere I go in downtown big city areas and I kind of do like, oh man, you can't, can't make it through the day without lighting up and smoking your weed because you can't deal with life. Meanwhile, the people who are just popping oxys they don't smell like anything, so I have no idea that they're up to the same, essentially the same, behavior. Or the people who are popping Adderall. Or the people who are using alcohol at levels where they're not like a homeless wino that's stumbling around the place. It's like everybody's doing something to cope with life and it's like, well, the uh. It's easy for me to look down on the people that do it in a way where it's like oh, I can clearly tell you're doing this, so therefore, me right, who are you?
Dan:I mean, but that's, that's human, that's human nature. Yeah, yeah, part of you're part of my tribe, or you're not right?
Charles:yeah, it's kind of, but it's still.
Dan:What kinds of things make me think that you're part of my tribe? Understand? Are you like me or you?
Charles:know you like yeah, are you like me, do you do the things I do? Or trying to say are you someone who's not like me and does other things? And so I try to. When I have those thoughts, I try to remind myself like okay, you don't. You don't know what their deal is, so chill out.
Dan:I mean and you don't know what life would be like if they didn't do those things Right. How would things be Like? Maybe this is actually benefiting them in some way.
Charles:Right, Exactly I mean I.
Dan:An alternative wouldn't be much worse.
Charles:Yeah, they could just be a recreational weed user without a lot of motivation and they just like chilling all the time and that might be their deal. Or it's like oh, I'm actually on chemo, so I use this to stop myself from being nauseous and being able to actually eat.
Dan:Or like Rick. It's not my business, but Right, or like Rick, it basically was at a stress level of 80, told the meditation teacher and that's when he was like, hey, I need some, but weed helps, right. So that makes him a little bit of a nicer person, yeah.
Charles:Let's, let's jump into it, you know. So I really his his interaction with the meditation teacher, which that was good, that first step there's very, very like yes, there's a lot going on there, and it felt a little bit like a first therapy session too in some ways, mostly because of what he was willing to disclose, which is interesting.
Charles:But the first thing that came to mind was her asking him how are you feeling? And his answer is I don't know. Yeah, which is pretty common for people, for trauma survivors. They, they have difficulty labeling what they're feeling, labeling their emotions, being able to say this is what I'm experiencing now, in the moment. It's only it's only later, or if maybe not at all, that they're able to actually put a name on what they were experiencing. So I found that was really interesting.
Charles:Rick lacks the ability, at least in this context, to say what he's feeling and to label it, which is common for people that survive trauma. And he gets into specifically what trauma. His mother was a drug addict and I guess she OD'd when, when he was 10 and his father died before he was born. Yeah, murdered, oh. Did he say murdered? Yes, okay, so yeah, and there's. It seems like there's usually a couple of ways.
Charles:People who have that background can go one of two ways. In my experience either my life is garbage because of what I missed out on, or essentially writing it off like everybody has their thing. This is mine, everything's fine, it's fine, it's not affecting me, it's fine, yeah. And he seems to be going down the other road of yeah, I missed out on some important stuff I should not have missed out on, and, as a result, I mean he talks about not having an identity, yes, having nothing inside of him, right? And so it's almost like I empathize, admire and respect someone who's willing to say my needs were not met and, as result, I'm in rough shape like I.
Charles:I can appreciate that and I can respect that, but it doesn't seem like he has gone the next step of and, while that sucks, now I have a responsibility to do something about it. I, it doesn't feel like right, right, or he certainly, yeah, and he's. He's in Thailand on some business that we don't know exactly what it's about at this point, but it does seem like he. He wants to figure out a way to soothe this feeling, but we don't know what that is. And and he certainly, whatever he's there to do, is preoccupying him from putting anything good into his relationship with his girlfriend, because they are, I mean, she really loves this guy and he's not really giving her much to work with at all.
Dan:And she tries to get him constantly. She's trying to get him out of his shell, get him to enjoy something, and he's just miserable the whole time. And she's like oh, I met Chloe Right, the other woman there, and we've got dinner plans with her, her boyfriend. And he's like no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And she goes yeah, we have so much in common. Like I'm young and fun, like she is, and and you're old and and he's old and and he's bald, and you're going bald.
Dan:He's like I'm not going bald and she's like okay, yeah, yeah but that was right after, not right after, but I think was it this episode of the episode before that they were talking about lbh's losers, where basically old white guys, old bald white guys, they considered lbh's losers back home, and so was that. That was this early this season yeah, yeah, yeah and right and and so it might have. I thought it was in that episode. It might may not have been my the next one I thought it was and the.
Dan:The ironic thing too was like right after that scene they were showing piper in the yoga class and, if you remember, there was a guy that was standing in front of her like doing his stretches. He was an old, bald white guy and he kept like looking back at her, like with these creepy looks, like every time he did a move he'd like crane his neck to kind of give her the eye or whatever, like way too much and it was just just this perpetual message of creepy old walls, white guys throughout this, this whole thing, and I felt like when chloe was not chloe, chelsea was, chelsea is that chelsea, are we right?
Dan:chelsea no, no, it is chelsea rick's girlfriend. Yeah, she was trying to get him to, I guess. I felt like he was kind of like at a fork in the road where, like he wasn't quite bald yet, so it's like where, where you have a choice now, because that was also right before he went to see the meditation instructor and she was trying to get him to go, and so she was like hey, I think this would be good for you. And basically it was like hey, you're about to go bald. So you, you have a. You have it's kind of almost like a metaphorical fork in the road.
Dan:You go down this path and become this creepy, old, bald white guy, or you could kind of change your ways and maybe save your hairline and your life a little bit right yeah, and then I think after that, that's when you went to the meditation instructor and what was really interesting to me was that she would say, hey, he basically, like she asked him, you know something about his identity? And he's like I don't have an identity. And she goes well. Sometimes that can be, that can just be a figment, basically, of your imagination as well. And he goes well if, if you don't put any gas in the tank, nothing's gonna start, car's not gonna start, nothing comes from nothing, right? And then there's like almost like a standoff, like where, like he's just like set in his ways and you shoot. You see the, the two extremes of pessimism and optimism optimism from her pessimism.
Charles:And then the scene closes out where they're just staring at each other and they're not saying anything yeah, not, and not just, I mean not even, not just pessimism, right to the point I'd say nihilism, where this guy and it's like you wonder, you wonder what his life outside of the resort must look like. I mean, when you feel that way about yourself and you feel that way about the world, like what? And? And he alludes to this with the dinner with gary, where it's like he I think he alludes in some way to gary's wealth and the nice houses like so what? What do you do? He's like I'm retired, retired from what? All this and that? And it's like what about you? He's like yeah, this is that a lot of a lot of people, a lot of people around here who do this and this and that yeah oh yeah, you get the.
Charles:It's like these are two shady guys. It's almost like two predators recognizing each other. Like we're both. Yep, we're both. Not, that's exactly right, not on the up and up here we're both, we're both, not that's exactly right, Not on the up and up here, where we're both not the kind of people you screw around with and and it's interesting, where I mean Gary's the only character, or Greg, as he was in previous previous seasons he's it's. It's interesting that he's the only like thread that's run through the whole series.
Dan:Well, the massage therapist too. Oh yeah, that's fair, well. Well, actually she didn't, she wasn't in the last one, that's right.
Charles:We didn't see her in italy.
Charles:Yeah, we saw her in one and we saw her now but they kind of brought her back, yeah, but yeah, gary greg, yeah, he's, he's definitely bad news and he recognizes that rick is bad news too and they it's like they they're the only two people that really see each other like that get, okay, I, I know what's going on here. That was an interesting dynamic to me. We we breezed over lachlan, but there wasn't really much to lachlan in this episode. He's he's basically an open-minded kid who's trying to figure out who he is.
Dan:I would say right, well, do you remember the scene? This is this. This is in this episode. He's in the water with his sister.
Charles:Oh, where he brings up Saxon's remark.
Dan:And he's like, yeah, so he's. So he went, he did a sensory deprivation right. And so she's like, oh, hey, how was it? Did you meditate? He's like no, but I prayed. And she's like oh. And he's like, well, I don't really feel anything. And she's like, well, I definitely feel something. And then he questions her and he goes do you feel something like an external presence? Because you want to feel something, or is it really? It's real? And she just like cut him off. So she was yeah, and then he kind of pokes back and he felt a little attacked by that. But what, right? And then, but. And then he, though, retaliates almost because she, that's true, and what do you?
Charles:think he was aggressive, wasn't he? Oh, absolutely, he didn't pitch that.
Dan:He goes right and he goes Saxon doesn't think you've had sex. And she's like what the fuck? And she's like why is he even asking whatever? And he goes well, well, whatever, he goes well, well. And then, and so then lock, he kind of backs up because he sees you really upset his sister and he's like, oh well, he said it because you were hot and like like like trying to make it a better was make it worse. And she's like what the fuck? Why is he talking? Yeah, yeah and so. And then they have a little bit more conversation and then saxon is so cool, I'm not saxon, lock, he's so clueless. He goes, she's clearly upset about this. They say something else, and then we'll have you, we'll have you. And then she's like, oh my god. And then she swims away, right, and I was just like that was, and he's. And then he's like, oh, fuck. He's like, yeah, oh, I fucked up.
Dan:Yeah, it's definitely he's really trying to figure himself out and like how to have no that social interaction that is worth a packing.
Charles:So yes, he, basically he, he went at her belief system in a way that most people would feel a little attacked about. So that's a lack of social awareness and intelligence on his part, I would say. And then his efforts to try to make it better. It wasn't just you would hope at your best if you, if you brought it up in that way and you could tell you sort of bristled somebody with, with what you were. I didn't mean to get me to offend you, didn't mean to attach you my mistake, but he, it didn't seem like he had the either the skills or wasn't able to pick up on that's what happened and just apologize and back off a little bit. It's like let it change the subject to something else.
Dan:That's more pleasant, or so I don't know about that. I'm thinking maybe he got upset because he he didn't know how to handle her being upset at him, and so he's just like. He's like oh, she yelled at me because she made me feel stupid, because it's real, now I'm gonna, now I'm gonna and I, and now I'm gonna stick the knife in a little bit right. Interesting because it's like well saxon said, you haven't had sex yet right, that's interesting.
Charles:Yeah, we both definitely seen to try to get back.
Dan:We saw that differently and I think you're probably more correct on it than I am, but yeah, that's that is interesting, that, yeah, he, he probably felt a little shamed that I didn't handle this interaction right, so now I've got to defend myself by bringing her down to my let's make her uncomfortable too or or or more, I think my where my opinion is is he feels then, less than her, like dumber than her, because she's like, of course it's real, like like talking to him almost like a child and so him feeling okay, well, I need to somehow raise my status or bring her down, because I see that she's above me when she said it's real and so maybe it's like I want to bring her down a little bit. Well, saxon says you haven't even had sex yet, and then he realized he overreached a little bit and then it just like snowballs badly from there. I think that would be the way I interpret it.
Charles:No, I think you're onto something there. There's definitely definitely and again, plus, the way this family handles sexuality seems to be a bit weird anyway, and so, yeah, that seems like a dangerous, dangerous area to poke somebody when they're there's energy in that family around sexuality and it seems to be weird energy. So, yeah, very like walking over ground with with landmines in it. Like, how do you, how do you approach this? How do you bring it up in a way that isn't going to set people off? And, yeah, I think I think lock I mean lock you may there may be some trauma in his background, some in in his sister's, some in his brother's, it's, it's all just very, it strikes me as this is off. This isn't how normal, healthy people in a family interact in this area.
Dan:And clearly he has. He respects his older brother quite a bit and kind of looks up to him. So I think maybe that's something, maybe his older brother might say something like that bold and that, hey, you haven't had sex Right. So he was almost pretending he's almost trying to play him. Yeah, yeah, which is a mistake.
Charles:Clearly, yes, definitely, yeah, all right, let's. Let's go to a guy talking and and what we learned about him in this episode so he what he asks mook to have lunch with them. And I liked the way he did it, where he asked her what her plans were and she said and he didn't really. I usually go with the girls, right, I usually go with the girls. And he didn't really ask. He said have lunch with me instead, yeah, which is good. That's. A good way to ask a girl out for a date is to not ask but say, but to tell, still doing it in a way where they have the ability to say no, thank you, if they don't want to do it, but it's well, she said why, and he's like well, I want to talk to you but he didn't say that I didn't love.
Charles:okay, the, the idea of. I mean anyhow, anything in the in the range of we need to talk later is not. That can be anxiety-inducing or, at the very least, put expectations on someone like okay, what's this going to be about? Right? Not always in a positive way, yeah, and so I would not say I need to talk to you as part of a lunch invitation to somebody. I think that's probably not the best way to go. I mean something along the lines of because I want to spend some time with you or because I want to hang out with you, it would be fun. All strike me as better options. I want to talk to you. You know what I mean, yeah.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:And so when they do have the lunch, he, yeah, he gives her, he gives her a sales pitch and he, he, and it's a sales pitch that focuses on the features, not the benefits as well, where he basically is trying to talk her into going straight to hey, we should be together, yeah.
Dan:Uh, because your brother's like me and what from the same town or something right, your families know each other, or something like that, right yeah?
Charles:and the. These are all legitimate reasons to be in a relationship with someone, but when that someone, when that girl especially, is when she's attracted to you and when she's interested in you, she's going to be telling herself these reasons. She doesn't need to hear it from you and it just I found it cringy. I found it cringy and ineffective, based on my own experiences. What, what were your thoughts when he was giving her the pitch?
Dan:Oh, absolutely it was. It was again. It was putting the cart before the horse.
Charles:I felt like, right, like you just said, basically like there needs to be the attraction there, and then it's like, okay, if we're gonna stand a chance of moving forward and building something meaningful together, right, those other things then come into play at that point correct, because he he's one of the things we talk about on this show constantly is being over invested in a girl that you're not in a relationship with yet and acting like you're over invested is is a killer to attraction, romance, intrigue, all that stuff. He's basically saying I haven't been on a date with you, but I'm already thinking we should discuss having a life together and and her reaction is we haven't even been on a date yet. So the fact that he's even considering her having this role in his life without ever actually going on a date with her, it screams scarcity, it screams overinvestment, it screams inexperience.
Dan:And fantasizing about this life together that hasn't happened yet, great. Or that she like, because he's already on a different level, he's thinking they're ready for that. And then what? She laughs at him. She basically is just like don't be stupid idiot, don't be, don't be stupid, just eat your food. And he's, and he's, he's like slowly, he wasn't even eating the whole time. That's what. All, that's what it brought. She even called him out on. Yes, she's like why aren't you eating your food? And because she was so nervous to talk to her about the whole thing, so the whole thing that the whole interaction was was not something attractive for for her. And then that's when she's just like all right, look, you just put yourself in the friend zone at this point, like don't be stupid, let's just just eat, finish your lunch, and then we'll go on from there the robbers.
Charles:She is concerned for him and she talks about him being brave and she's worried about him and stuff like that, but which I think he immediately uses that concern for him to erase the fact that she has whether you want to call it rejected him or just communicated a lack of romantic interest. He pretends like that all just goes away because she's worried about him after he gets bonks bonked in the head. Yeah, like a girl can like you, like spending time with you, care about you and not want you to have a concussion. And that doesn't mean she wants to be your girlfriend, right, right, and it seems like that, really just kind of that was lost on him, like I don't know if it's because he's a little bit of a, you know. So how should he have acted? Well, I mean number one it's not our job to tell other people, even fictional characters, how they should behave, but if your goal is to have the possibility of a romantic relationship with this girl, you should only ask for the next level of interaction. You shouldn't try to skip levels. And he was trying to skip levels. He was, he was trying to sell her on. Here's why we should be a couple, when they hadn't even gone on a date together.
Charles:So if the goal is if you think the goal is to be in a couple with this girl, then what you need to do is offer her the next step in your relationship, which is let's go on a date. The next step in your relationship, which is let's go on a date. Don't ask her to be your girlfriend when you've never been on a date before. Ask her to go out with you on a date and then go on the date with her and evaluate her as a possible fit for the kind of person you would like to go on a second date with. But when you're I've seen the meme before people it's a person like on a staircase where they're trying to go from step one to step five, and they're like taking a big, uncomfortable step to step five.
Charles:And that's what he was doing with his relationship with her. He's trying to skip over steps two, three and four and just go straight from one to five. And it does look uncomfortable and awkward when you try to do that. Yeah, and it does look uncomfortable and awkward when you try to do that. And so if that's the goal, if that's the end goal, if you think she'd be a good match for that, all the more reason to not try to skip there, because it's going to turn her off. If you want her to get on board with thinking, hmm, step five might be a place I want to be with this guy, show her how good of a time step two is and that if step two goes well in a way that both of you agree that it goes well, then go to step three and see how step three goes. But yeah, he, he tried to skip to step five, which makes the expectation and the pressure and the likelihood of a fun, exciting step two decreased by at least some measure yeah so well said yeah.
Charles:And then he also made the mistake of any pretty girl that I'm attracted to. If she's nice to me for any reason, oh, it's because she, she's interested in me romantically. And that's another mistake that inexperienced guys will make. Like girls, girls can be nice to you and and like you and not want you to have head trauma for reasons other than he's so attractive, he's so sexy. I wish, I wish I was in a relationship with him, but I could. The actor did a good job of portraying okay, she's. She's being nice to me after, yeah, this experience I had where I got hit in the head, I got pistol whipped. Now she's being nice to me. You, you're saying there's a chance? Yep, yeah. And that's a mistake on his part. Mm-hmm.
Dan:Yeah, but she does. So that's the thing, though she doesn't ever like when she shows up and she's like, how are you doing? And he's like, well, I'm better now.
Dan:She doesn't say anything to reaffirm the lack of interest Correct, and most women won't, and and right, and, and she, that would be mean right, right, correct, right. So I think, like you said, is oh, I still have a chance now, right, because he didn't. She's not being consistent with the message hey, we're just friends, back off buddy type of thing, right, and that's what got in that. And when, when I and listen, I've been there, I was younger and unless you hear it's oh, I still have a chance, right.
Charles:But that's. I find I feel that I'm the guy to understand and be able to 100%, 100%. Dude, If your standard is, I'm going to keep pushing until I make her have to be rude to me. That's a problem. That's when girls start saying you're a creep, right If you. When girls start saying you're a creep, right if you can't, when you're not reading the room, right, you're not. You're not looking things from from their perspective. You can't pick up on the non-verbals and the yeah.
Charles:If you can't pick up on that, then you're basically saying every girl I'm attracted to has to like me back, or I'm going to push her to the point where she's really rude to me and then I'll probably complain about her being a bitch or being mean or being a tease and it's like dude, don't, whatever you have to do to not be that guy, don't be that guy. And yeah, I mean I don't know that he has it in him to be that guy because he seems they're writing this character as being very nice and very polite and very passive and I mean all those things. It's okay to be those things, but yeah, you're just gonna set, you're gonna to get things to the point where she feels like okay, I have to be, I have to be rude if you're going to keep refusing to get it, or or I just have to be very kind of passive with yes, I'll, I'll accept you. You get to be my friend who has a crush on me. But every time you try to get out of that space, I'm gonna shut it down. Yeah, which is where the more attractive thing to do for him is to be like hey look, this is, this is the nature of the relationship I want with you.
Charles:If, if you're not willing to have that relationship with me, then we just won't have a relationship and I'll be able to move on to other prospects, and that's that's okay, and that's that's a strong and loving thing to do. When, when somebody's not willing to meet your needs, then you have to be willing to say for yourself okay, well, I need to be in relationships where my needs are met and you're not willing to provide that, so this crushy friendship I have with you is going to get in the way of me finding that with someone else, so I have to leave it behind. Yeah, it's not easy to do, it's not, but no, I mean, what's? What's the other option? You look up 10 years later and you're still in a close friendship with a girl that you're crushing on.
Dan:Who doesn't want right and it's probably inhibited you from doing a lot of other things and finding a lot of other connections right and it's probably not inhibiting her.
Charles:It's, she's, she's going out there and dating the kinds of guys she wants to be with, and then you get to hear the stories about it right, so she's, she's getting her having her cake and eating it too.
Dan:Right, she gets she gets that friendship and that connection from. You.
Charles:Which in a lot of cases, that's in a lot of cases that's fine, that's. She's not doing anything wrong by that. If she's, if she's communicating her lack of interest in a way that you're just refusing to accept it, yeah and she keeps you around.
Dan:That's on you, that's not on her and it's not to say that you can't separate and then come back as friends after you've kind of established yourself with connecting with other people and you can actually look at the other person as just a friend. And I I have done that in the past, where it's just like I was. I was crushing on somebody and she's like well, I just look at you as a friend and I'm like, well, I can't be just friends with you right now.
Dan:I stopped talking to her for like a couple of years. It was hard because we're in your classes and like she didn't make it easy because she I heard from the grapevine that she's so upset that I wasn't a friend anymore. Every once in a while I was just like, okay, so, but in and in the end it was the best thing I ever did, because we come back and we weren't ever as close as we were at the beginning and that was intentional and that was a good thing. But you know, now it's it, it's a pure platonic type of thing.
Charles:It's interesting. It's like I understand you're disappointed that we can't be close friends anymore, but don't worry, the same skills that I'm building to not get to be your boyfriend, you get to build those skills by not being my friend. It's like we'll both live with the. We'll both develop some resilience from not getting exactly what we want out of this relationship exactly on our own terms. Yeah, so it's like yeah, I, I appreciate that you've enjoyed being my friend. Maybe, maybe the guy in the scenario does have a little bit of responsibility. Well, I, I should have come clean sooner and then we could have saved us both a little bit of this discomfort yeah but I didn't.
Charles:So here's where we are. You want to be my close platonic friend. I want to be your boyfriend. Neither of us are going to get what we want, and hopefully that will make us better at the next relationship we find ourselves in.
Dan:Yeah, yeah. If only it had been. You'd been around when I was in junior high to tell me that.
Charles:Oh, I would have been in grade school so I wouldn't have had I would have only had three quarters of this waste of BX. How dare you? I knew what resilience.
Dan:No, I didn't know what it was.
Charles:I'd be like I would have defined what is this Our word? Appreciate that, or I would have given you a different R word. All right, let's stop there for today, dan will. We'll hit episode three next with the aftermath of the oh. One thing I also thought was I want to say about Rick and chelsea she felt like she was in real danger during that robbery, as any person who, the first time you've had a gun pointed at you, you're going to feel like I could have died. And he was just like no, you didn't. I mean, on several occasions she's like I could have been killed or I was almost killed or whatever. No, you weren't just dismissing it completely out of hand. And then, yeah, he's a the part where he's a prick to her the whole episode. But at the very end, when he started feeling horny, he was very happy to use her to comfort himself through some, some sex, yeah, which, and she seemed to be up for letting him do that.
Dan:I mean, it was well, she came to him it was like protect me, right and so, and then she hops on top of him. So I feel like that was more about Right and so, and then she hops on top of him. So I feel like that was more about her. You didn't really have to twist his arm.
Charles:Clearly he was into it Correct, yeah, but the the fact that he, he downplayed her experience until her experience was. Now. I want physical intimacy, to feel better about what I went through. Oh, okay, I can do that. Yeah, I can't. I can't throw a. Yeah, that sounds really scary. I'm sorry you went through that. That's too much right. Having you on my lap and turn and initiate sex with you, that's easy, I can handle that. So, yeah, I thought I thought that spoke to just his, his drives as a man, but also his immaturity, inability to address things in any other way other than I'm gonna get mad or I'm going to get horny. That seems to be what he's capable of at this point in the show.
Dan:Oh, I also wanted to mention at the end of this episode. There's a little foreshadowing there, where dad walks away basically to take the phone call and he's getting off the phone trying to get that lawyer and after he gets off the phone or was it was the lawyer and he's getting off the phone trying to get that lawyer and after he gets off the phone, or was it was the lawyer, was he talking to kenny? I don't remember it might have been the lawyer. Yeah, because kenny told him get a lawyer yesterday. So he sees his family walking back to the lodge or to to the cabin and you hear loki loki talking about when there was a tsunami in kent.
Charles:Yes, and the little girl was basically saying she just studied so she knew it was coming.
Dan:But nobody believed her or whatever, and and and then it like it kind of fades off and oh and so the dad, and then they, they walk into the house and then you see just like this look of terror in Timothy his face, where he's just like, yeah, I think he sees a tsunami coming and his family does yeah, that's, that's a good point. So I thought it was low, I thought that was really well done. I was like Holy cow, that's, that's great, yeah.
Charles:Yeah, man, I feel it again. The, what we've seen so far, is the only guy who seems to be just acting normal, is the massage therapist that poland is there to work with, like that's the only guy that's not done anything weird yet, right? I remember at this point this episode in the next episode. I'm like man, I hope this guy doesn't get weird. I hope they just keep him. Yeah, so one guy who just knows how to deal with people, knows how to talk to people, doesn't do anything strange or show his mental illness.
Charles:Wear it on the sleeve yeah and so far, so good yeah all right, thanks, dan. We'll talk to you next time, for episode three sounds good. Thanks for listening all the way through, dan, and I appreciate you being here. We've got more white lotus masculinity breakdowns coming, so make sure to join us for the next episode. In the meantime, you can find full audio and video episodes and whatever else we're up to over at mindfully masculinecom. See you next time.
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