Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Charles and Dan are just two guys talking about relationships, masculinity, and authenticity. Join them as they discuss books and media, as well as their (sometimes messy) personal stories, to encourage men to join the fight for their mental, physical, and emotional health--because a world of healthy, resilient men is a thriving and more secure world for everyone.
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
The White Lotus: The Masculine Mask Slips
Cobra bites. Financial panic. Fake names. Welcome to Episode 3 of The White Lotus Season 3, where everything is simmering—and masculinity is under a microscope.
Charles and Dan break down:
– Rick’s unraveling sense of self, and why his attempt at “liberating” the snakes says more about him than the snakes
– Whether vengeance ever actually brings closure—or just gives men an excuse to stay broken
– The toxic trap of being “the provider,” and how Timothy weaponizes love and loyalty to protect his crumbling identity
– Gaitok’s slow slide into romantic denial, and why “just being there” isn’t the flex some guys think it is
– What family roles we internalize—and why they can sabotage our adult relationships
Also on the table: bodyguards as metaphor, foreshadowing via astrology and animal dreams, and the difference between saving someone and trying to be seen as a savior.
Smart, honest, and sometimes brutal—just like the episode.
🚨 Spoilers for Episodes 1–3 of White Lotus Season 3
🎧 Watch and listen at mindfullymasculine.com
🌀 Next week: Episode 4. The facades start to crack.
Right and imagine how frustrating that is for your partner to hear when you're like thank you so much for sharing that with me. I really appreciate it, but I don't believe you. I think you probably believe what you're telling me you need from me, but it's not true. I know what you actually need from me and I dig into how masculinity shows up flawed, evolving and often off-balance in the men of the White Lotus. Today we're unpacking Season 3, episode 3.
Charles:This episode gives us men who are slipping out of sync with the roles they're trying to play. Rick's going through the motions, detached, restless and in no shape to show up for the woman who cares about him. Timothy is clinging to control, trying to manage his family's perception while the ground shifts beneath him and Guy Talk. He's holding on to a quiet hope for something more, unsure whether his patience is thoughtful or just delaying a truth he doesn't want to face. There's no full-blown collapse yet, but the masks are starting to shift and what's underneath them is what we're here to talk about. Let's get into it. Check out our website, mindfullymasculinecom, for full audio video episodes and anything else we feel like sharing.
Dan:Thanks, Good morning. How are you doing?
Charles:I'm well, dan. Thank you, how are you?
Dan:I am also doing great.
Charles:Okay, we're going to continue our podcast on discussing masculinity in White Lotus season or, yeah, season three and we're going to hit episode three, which again that means there will be spoilers for episodes one, two and three in season three. So if you've not yet watched those episodes, you may want to stop watch them and then come back to the podcast. This episode was really just kind of building up to more stuff that's going to happen later, and we saw that with Rick and his situation, the Ratliff family and a little bit more with Guy Top. So let's talk about Rick first.
Charles:This is a crazy episode for Rick. He's getting more into the. We're learning more about his mental state and how he feels about his past and what effect it's having on him. It's continuing to be rude to his girlfriend and she's hanging in there. She is hanging in there, she. She really cares about the guy, I wonder. It's. It's strange. It's strange to think about how they initially got together, cause it's it's hard to imagine a version of him that is not preoccupied with this trauma. Like what? What was he like when they initially got together? That would have attracted her?
Dan:Yeah, and that was made evident when they were out going for the snake show. And she's just like, right before that, she's like are we ever going to have fun again? Right, I'm like this guy's capable of having fun, exactly like I did not get that from him ever, like being able to relax. But maybe if he smokes enough weed because that's what he's, that's what he's really craving and binging, right.
Charles:so maybe if he does, he can, he can relax a little bit yeah, or maybe in the beginning of the relationship she was his drug, she was his weed, could it know? As they met, they were initially attracted to each other. Littlerens kicked in. Maybe she served a role of being his drug for a little bit of time before he got used to her presence and then just started to devalue her seemingly all the time. Where, yeah, he just does not.
Dan:And as much as she was getting closer to him, he kept pushing her away. There was conversation about oh score, because he was talking about how he had to go to Bangkok, right, and she's like, why are you going to Bangkok? He's like, don't worry about it. And she's like Scorpio, so mysterious. She's like I'm an Aries, I need everything to be out in the open. And I'd never heard that about like Aries before, but the few Aries that I know, that's that does hold true. Like they, they want to know everything. They want to know everything that's out there. But then he throws it in her face. He throws it in her face later on, when is just like like completely like you got me, but at the same time, like I don't know what to do with this. Like yeah, you should do that.
Charles:You could do that. But you're right kind of thing. Yeah, I think I could see. My ex-wife was an Aries, oh, really, okay, yeah, so and my friend Lindsay, who I used to work with she's, she's an Aries and I could see some of it. I don't I don't subscribe to astrology except when it says something complimentary about me and then I believe it's a hundred percent true. Exactly, I think everybody's.
Charles:So Rick is not nice to his girlfriend, nice to his girlfriend and these, these meditation sessions he's going to are they're doing a good job of stirring up things that he probably needs to deal with. Yeah, definitely needs to deal with. But then it seems like he's responding to those feelings coming up. So he he gets high and gets emotional about the snakes being in captivity and decides he needs to let them out. He lets them out and his girlfriend gets bit by a cobra so she has to go to the hospital to get anti anti-venom so she doesn't die. And geez, it's like I would hope that in that scenario I would respond to that by saying, okay, I just did something crazy. Someone close to me got hurt really bad, she could have died. Now I should probably get my crap together.
Dan:He's just like I was stoned. Yeah, he, just I have a sexual addiction when she's like Rick, yeah, like why would you do this?
Charles:How did this happen? He's like I was stoned.
Dan:Literally, he was identifying with the snakes, like the snakes were trapped, and he feels like he's, he's a he's a trapped evil type of thing, right, and he wanted to be. He wants to be set free too, and that's that's kind of foreshadowing what he's doing.
Charles:Yeah, and if it does, he does reference kind of something. I don't remember how they said exactly, but it's clear that he feels like some act of revenge or vengeance or getting even or something will settle the score and then he'll be able to move on. And when I was watching the episode, re-watching the episode this morning, I I wanted to ask you about that. It's so.
Charles:The vengeance narrative is so common in literature and in stories Even go into somebody like Batman or superheroes or Hamlet or whatever the Lion King.
Charles:There's this thing of I need to get even with the person who hurt my family and then, once I get even, I'll be able to. I've never heard a real life example of that, though, like we can't stop talking about it in fiction, but I don't know anybody who said, yeah, I suffered this loss or whatever. And then, as I got older, I was able to finally get even with the person who did it to me and now everything's great. I've never heard that happen once and, to be fair, even in literature it doesn't often work out great. Sometimes it does, but for the most part it's like no, the person seeking the vengeance, seeking to even the scales, ends up destroying themselves. Yeah, but in like the Lion King, for example, simba gets rid of Scar and spoiler alert if you haven't seen the lion King that came out 30 years ago. But he does get even with. But his, his motivation is not I have to get even, it's more of I have to. I have to restore balance to my kingdom.
Dan:Yeah, I think the reason why it's so popular is because it's an emotion we all identify with and we all have, and that's ad at a time, yeah, and I guess depending on our upbringing and the lessons we've learned throughout life will determine whether we go through with it or not. So I'm sure there's people who do go through with it and doesn't probably most likely doesn't work out right, but I think most of us and most people that we surround ourselves with don't actually go that far, so we don't actually see it actually happening in real life because, thankfully, the people that we've surrounded ourselves with stop ourselves before we take it that far.
Charles:Maybe this is a name that those people have done this.
Dan:Maybe because this is a theme throughout history. This is just one of the things like, as a human society, we're trying to teach people how to exist in society. The story goes along. One of those lines of this is a lesson Do not do this Right, don't let it go this far, because these are the consequences and scaring people into seeing what those consequences are if we keep going with those feelings and that emotion. But it's so popular because I think we all identify with it. Yeah, at least at some point along the whole actual journey.
Charles:I mean, I've felt that. I've certainly felt that way of oh, I wish I could get back for blah, blah, blah, but I'm younger. Have you ever gotten to the point where it's actually done it?
Dan:So here's perfect examples. Oh, have you ever played a video game where it's like a multiplayer game and like you're competing against somebody else? So for me, perfect example is Mario Kart, and someone threw a banana at me and I spin out or whatever. I'm like, ok, all right. And now it's game on. And then it's a minor little thing, I want some vengeance, I'm going to blow by everybody else so that I can. Then I feel like I was wrong, whether it was intentional or not. Sometimes you're like, oh all right, I need to get even kind of thing Right. It's fun for a video game, but real life.
Dan:Yeah, but imagine that being the narrative that you base your whole life on, which is what I get the impression is Rick's situation. What's interesting to me, though, is in this episode, Rick is about to go to Bangkok and she's like well, what am I going to do? We're going to go on the boat. And she's like, well, what am I going to do? We're going to go on the boat. And she's like what am I going to do on myself?
Dan:He goes oh well, mooch off of somebody who's richer than I am, yeah, so I thought and I saw that I mean I've watched this episode three times or four times, yeah, and it's the first time I picked that up and I'm like, wait a minute at for quite a bit of time. There's a lot of money around there. Rick's doing probably okay for himself financially, and that just goes to show that money doesn't buy happiness, obviously. And it just didn't even occur to me that, yeah, rick probably has not, probably doesn't have a shittiest life when it comes to needing for things.
Charles:Yeah, but I also get the impression that he's probably a criminal.
Dan:He's probably made his money for sure, yeah, a good point.
Charles:This, so yeah, this and that yeah, between this and that and him saying during his second medication session in this episode, why not, I took bad things okay, because things they're all side, they get the oppression, and then it also brings in something the Ratliffs were having that discussion about. Rich people aren't better Like there's plenty of trashy rich people, and I think I mean they could have even been thinking back to the experience on the boat with Rick Right Good point, again, nobody's. They shoot these episodes at four season property, four seasons properties, and so even for a place to just look like or be a stand-in for a force, the white lotus is got to be on that same level as a four seasons resort. Yeah, and I can't imagine. I mean, these people are spending thousands and thousands of dollars per night to stay in these. Yeah, so rick's, rick's.
Charles:So yeah, all these people have money and so, yeah, it's, except for the staff, but yeah, he's, he's probably gotten his money in some not great ways and yeah, yeah, I wonder it. It'd be great to see more like official not fan fiction backgrounds of these people. But part of the fun, like the fun with Lost, was like getting to know these people a little bit at a time and see more about their now lost. It was literally flashbacks, but with this it's more like revealing conversations and stuff like that. But yeah, he's, he's a complex character and it's. It's interesting how he he is seeking peace and redemption at some level, but like there's there's no reason to believe he's going to go about doing it in a healthy way that will actually work for him.
Dan:No, no way that will actually work for him. No, no. The fact is that he is at least going to meditation sessions yeah, that's interesting.
Charles:Why isn't he just pulling him off? I'm kind of wondered about that. Like there's got to be a part of him that that thinks that there may be some value I mean, I think it's brilliant writing by our the white writer too.
Dan:No, no, I don't remember. He writes all the episodes. There are no barbos, whoever created. If he writes all the episodes, or no barless, whoever created, that is it helps us wonder. Okay, wait a minute, there's still a little hope here, like he's at least going to the session.
Charles:Yeah, he's being rude, he's being dismissive, but he is walking through the door, so so it's like okay, it's kind of keeping an open loop exactly all right. So let's go on to the Ratliff family and what they're up to.
Dan:The opening scene was amazing of this episode, I saw it. They said they used their house in the, in the, and then like it helps her and she makes up and it's like like blown away and isn't sure why I think yeah, and then and then, and then you know, piper is like hey, yeah, they have the discussion of okay, do dreams predict the future or is what's going on?
Charles:more likely, a combination of? She's watching the tsunami videos I guess the sun is watching them and so she's seeing them or they're talking about them, but also she's probably picking up, even if a subconscious, level of some discomfort, instability, anxiety in the patriarch that is, the provider for the family. So you put those two together, the tsunami videos with, like, okay, this guy is starting to unravel a little bit and I'm picking up the vibe.
Dan:And, yeah, that does translate to what you're going to see in your dreams what's interesting is the discussion that hyper and saxon have at breakfast, when she's like oh, this could be a premonition of things to come, and saxon says something was it like fire and snakes, or or rats and snakes? I think it's fire and snakes, yeah, but it's interesting. You said snakes. When I dream of rats and snakes, I think it's fire and snakes, yeah, but it's interesting. You said snakes. When I dream of rats and snakes, or fire and snakes, it's not like it doesn't mean anything other than I'm afraid of fire and snakes, right. And then later in the episode, that's when Rick goes and has the whole snake encounter, yeah, so they do a really nice job of making a. Uh, it's, it's almost pre programming you to already not like snakes by the time Rick gets there.
Charles:Although it's a fear of them, although, yeah, but Rick has no fear of the snakes, you know. He identifies with it instead of being afraid of it. But as a viewer.
Dan:He did a great job of basically setting the mindset of snakes are the fear Correct.
Charles:Yeah.
Dan:Yeah, just just reminding us. Oh yeah, by the way, snakes are scary, correct.
Charles:Yeah, yeah, just just reminding us. Oh yeah, by the way, snakes are scary. Yeah, yeah, that was, that was good. And so Timothy is. Yeah, he's. He's continuing to get calls from outside that are telling them, informing them on this developing situation, and yeah, he's.
Dan:Yeah, he's visibly disturbed. I mean he's, yeah, he's visibly disturbed. I mean it's right, sure, so his family starts asking questions. Ugh, so, which which is making it putting the pressure on him even more, because it's like he, I think he's like right at the breaking point of going, of being concerned that his family's going to find something out.
Charles:Yeah, which it it did. It prompted the question in me what is the what's the optimal or the healthy way to address the situation that he's going through? So if he was, I mean you could argue, okay, well, if he was healthy he wouldn't have looked for the shortcut and got himself into this trouble. That was another thing I picked up listening to this episode, I think when he's on the phone with he's on the, it wasn't the one where he's listening to the lawyer. It was like he was like out of. He was like out of earshot from the rest of the family, I think, and he was listening to a message or something. There was a reference like he formed this fund, like 15 years ago with Kenny. So this is like way in the rear view. This is something he did not expect to.
Dan:Oh, I missed that.
Charles:Yeah, I remember hearing like 15 years ago, so this, this is definitely something he thought was buried in in long in the past. And then it turns out, not so much and yeah, I thought that was interesting, but the yeah, the way he, his son, starts getting calls from somebody in the office because they work together God it was. It was the way he used his son's respect and admiration to manipulate him into giving up the phone. It's like Saxon is not the most sympathetic character, but I felt I felt bad for the way his dad was putting putting a number on him to manipulate him and work him into giving up his phone. That was shitty, I didn't like that.
Charles:But at the same time, you can identify with the dad in terms of wanting to protect his son from the mayhem that potentially and that's why I started to say I was going to ask you, if Timothy was a healthy guy, how would he have dealt with this?
Charles:Would he just come out to his family and say, look, there's something I did in my past that's coming out? There's going to be some business implications. I've got to go, hop on a plane and get back to town so I can deal with this. Or does he cancel the trip for everybody, or does he try to compartmentalize it and really stop freaking out about it and really give up the phones and just say, okay, there's nothing, there's nothing I can do about this in the next four days, or whatever it is, so I'm gonna wait till we go home and then I'm gonna deal with it. I think you got an obligation to tell your family immediately what's going on and then either decide hey, we have to either end this vacation or I got to hop on a plane and get out of here.
Dan:Yeah, I think, once you hear the FBI is looking for you, at that point I think you need to say something. I think, up until that point I think I probably would say all right, let's see. I don't know exactly how serious this thing is, right, right, until you actually go all right, let's see, I don't know exactly how serious this thing is, right, right until you actually go all right, look, yes, no, there's nothing that I feel in my power that I can do at this point to change the potential really negative outcome right at that point, then yeah, you need this.
Charles:When it's just a media scandal where you're like, okay, my reputation could end up taking a hit. They're going to do news stories about me, that's one. But it's when it's when the FBI is at your door looking for you, at the very least. But you know, when you get on the phone with your lawyer and say, okay, do I need to do? I need to rush back from Thailand so we can deal with this, or or what, but yeah, I feel like once law enforcement's involved, you got to kind of give your family a heads up of what's going on.
Dan:And I think in this episode he feels out and kind of brings up a little bit. It starts to, I think, with somebody about, oh, with his son we're saying, well, money is not everything. It started that when he was actually trying to manipulate him into giving up his phone he did basically say look, money is not everything. If we become more, then we can offer more.
Dan:If we open ourselves up to doing more, we can offer more. And yes, it's a manipulation tactic, but it's also something that he was kind of started to put his feelers out in his family, like, hey, how important is this life and this money to you? And he prided himself from I don't remember if he gets into his family, talking about like the pressure he had about growing up where I don't know if that was this episode.
Charles:No, I think that's in the future, but but yeah it's. I think it's okay to say we do learn that timothy is not some self-made man who pulled himself up from nothing, who was born poor and it created all this on his own. No, but this had a lot of his vision.
Dan:This is a family where both pressure and privilege are kind of going down through the generation right and and he built a family around privilege, and so, then, that they're, and I know his impression of them in terms of the way they love him and the reason why they love him is because of this life that he's been able to provide for them.
Charles:Yeah, maybe, yeah, I mean I think that's, but part of that's on him. It's like when I build your identity only as the provider and not the emotional foundation of your family, then All of us are just treated for blame for it. Exactly exactly if you've been teaching people for decades, love me because I'm the provider, and then you you're not the provider anymore, then you should be scared of them saying, okay, now, what do I love you for? Now? And it does. I get the vibe that he set his, his life up that way as love me because I'm the provider and you know, and so he's, he's holding on to that. Exactly, if that's all you teach, if that's all you've offered, then it's kind of your fault. When, when you're not, that you don't have that identity anymore and that's what he feels is unraveling, his identity as a provider is going to unravel, then why are these people going to love me? It's like, yeah, good question.
Dan:Yeah, yeah. And I think that comes back to the question that you said is, if he was healthy, he wouldn't have gotten that far right. He wouldn't have, like, still tried to hide everything from his family. But yeah, unfortunately, once it got out of hand, then he's all like oh yeah, let's throw our phones in the sack and not have any. And I thought that was really interesting. He's like yeah, I'm going to keep your watch two sacks and I forgot. Yeah, it's a lunar bar star watch. Yeah, it's not a watch too. He's like oh for doing this, we're doing this all the way.
Charles:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it was yeah, just all in an effort to protect himself and insulate really himself. I was going to and his identity, but not his family. This is not about him, he's strictly his family. He's protecting himself.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:Because, yeah, protect your family. It's like, okay, I know big changes are coming and I'm going to tell you about it as soon as possible and, yeah, I think the right thing to do is end the vacation. It's like we got to go home. Sorry, but we got to go home. Okay, let's see the son, the sons, saxon and Lachlan. So we talked mostly about Saxon. He's continuing to be kind of douchey with attractive women that he finds and not being very good at I mean, I find, any attention that he's getting from any of these women. It's really it's based on his bravado and based on his looks. It's not based on him communicating anything right about who he is as a person.
Dan:Well, if you remember, he sits down next to cloke, yeah, at the pool and introduces himself, her, and she seems very interested in saying, oh hi, I'm chloe, and and she's a little flirty with him. And then the next line is, I hear you're a douche, yeah, and then he kind of like laughs it off a little bit, so it just. But it goes to show, okay, she's interested, but at the same time she's testing him a little bit and seeing how he handles that, yeah. And then, if you remember, at dinner she's having her husband and she sees Saxon across the way to the table. He gives him an eye and he waves and that she turns back and she saw, her husband saw that thing. And then she immediately starts getting nervous, like eating the food, like really quickly, and stuff. So she's like so she got caught, something's up. And yeah, I just I thought that was another nice little premonition in terms of what's what, what's what's.
Charles:What's it ruin? Yeah they, they definitely, yeah, they, he. He develops these characters so well and I would say it is worth watching this entire season a second time at least, because, yeah, you will pick up on a lot of the foreshadowing and the hints of what's coming by going back and watching.
Dan:And that's part of the fun of it too is if you know what's going to happen at the end. You come back and you're just like, oh my gosh, I see how this. And then you really can appreciate the nuance of some of the scenes and some of the interactions that just kind of go completely over your head because you don't know it's important.
Charles:Correct, yeah, lachlan's development in this episode. He has his posture correction thing and there's some interesting stuff that comes out during the language yes, body language how he was kind of in a constant state of submission to the family members around him the first thing the instructor asks him is are you a pleaser, are you a people pleaser?
Dan:and he's like well, there's a lot of strong personalities in my family. Yeah, that was his answer yeah, and listen.
Charles:every, every child has to find their role in their family, and whether that's a sibling, or as a son or a daughter or whatever, and we plug ourselves into the roles that feel safe, like, okay, what role do I need to serve in this family so that my needs are met?
Dan:Correct Based on expectations.
Charles:Yes, exactly Of the family of you, yeah, and so it's hard to shake it is.
Dan:I think in all, as we get older, don't realize what a powerful mold that was on all of us and it's really difficult to see how it's not beneficial in certain ways it's so it's. It's absolutely beneficial in other ways. But being able to see like the full picture from the outside and that's why a coach, a therapist, somebody, a good friend can help, but mostly professional can really kind of help you see your tendencies. Yeah, it's like a posture correction. Therapist.
Charles:Exactly, yeah, the the roles we create and the strategies that we build as a kid in a family. Depending on how chaotic and traumatic your childhood is, it's either okay, I need these, I need these strategies to survive, or I need these strategies to fit in, or I need these strategies just to kind of get along with everybody. But the thing is, when you're a little kid and you're forming those strategies, it feels like survival, no matter how serious it actually is, and it kind of is because you don't have the ability to get your own food and make your own food, go get your own, like yeah it kind of it really is your own?
Charles:Yeah, but actually for the most point, for the most part, though, when you're a one and a half year old, two year old toddler is like, if you don't behave in just the right way, your parents aren't going to decide. Decide not to feed you, but you don't understand that. You don't know that. Decide not to feed you, but you don't understand that. You don't know that. Correct, yeah, that's the practical application is yeah, you, usually you don't have to put on an act as a small child to get fed and get sheltered and be taken care of or even get love, but it feels that way when you're that small, because that's all your brain can understand at that point, and so, yeah, you do come up with these, these modes of behaving and these parts that you play because of what you perceive to be the expectations around you and also what you expect the consequences to be correct and at that age it's like you feel like it's life or death.
Dan:There's we don't. You can't even think of what another consequence would be or how it would be less serious, yes, yeah.
Charles:How else could this go, except the way that I've told myself it's going to go? And then those same, those same skills, those same mechanisms. You then try to show up with those in a romantic relationship as an adult.
Dan:Because those are the tools and the way you believe things need to run. Yeah, that's, that's what you were programmed with.
Charles:Yeah, and the tools it takes to be a toddler who's just trying to survive in his family versus the tools it takes to be a partner in a successful, long-term romantic relationship. They're not the same tools. And so when you, when you show up with those tools and you rely on those tools and you default to those tools, it can cause some significant difficulties in your romantic relationships.
Dan:And then those romantic relationships fall apart and you're like okay, what do I do now? I just kind of had a thought is do you think it's possible? The reason why so many us struggle in relationships as we get older? Because of communication problems? Because when we're younger our parents are constantly communicating what they want in terms of our behavior and what we're expected to do good or bad whereas in an adult relationship that communication is definitely not as present, as forceful or as direct. So then a lot of times it's kind of like well, I don't even have the skill set to hunt and peck and figure out and decipher what I need to do to make this relationship work or what I need to do to make this person happy Cause you don't even really have the skills, because it was basically kind of hated to you on a silver platter almost in terms of this is what you need to be doing, whether it's verbal communication or nonverbal communication, because our, because we didn't have a choice when we were a kid, we didn't have much of a choice in things. So I feel like our parents probably were were really kind of saying make it easy for us to figure out, but as adults we're not getting that same level of input from a partner Usually. I'm just wondering you think there's any any validity in that, why it's sometimes difficult to figure out the right thing to do.
Charles:I would I mean in my, in my own experience. I think there's another dynamic that's going on, which is even in relationships with partners who are willing and able to honestly and openly communicate their needs to you. Where do you find one of those? In a therapist At least, at least ideally, that's. That's where they would spend some of their time. I think there's a part of us that, based on our childhood situations, we just say well, that's great that you're sharing that with me, but I don't believe you. I don't believe that's what you actually want from me. I don't believe that's actually what you need from me. Well, i've't believe you. I don't believe that's what you actually want from me. I don't believe that's actually what you need from me. Well, I've a hundred percent. Do you know? Believe that's actually what keeps. What actually keeps people in my life is not what you're telling me. It's because you're coming from. Yeah, it is a story I've told myself.
Dan:You have a story you've told yourself and something you've repeated, and something that your seeks out validation for the beliefs that you have has been working on this to prove that this is the way the world works For so many years. Who are you to say no, it doesn't work that way, or this isn't the way you think it is?
Charles:Right and imagine how frustrating that is for your partner to hear when you're like thank you so much for sharing that with me. I really appreciate it, but I don't believe you. I think you probably believe what you're telling me you need from me, but it's not true. I know what you actually need from me and I'm just going to keep doing what I've been doing, because that's the truth of what you actually require.
Dan:I've been in relationships like that, where I've tried to bring somebody up or encourage them or whatever. Encourage them or whatever, and it's it's it really kind of it was the end of the beginning of the end for me, because it's kind of like, wow, like as your partner, who you are telling me that I'm in, the most important person or one of the most important person people in your life, you're not even considering that I might have a, there might be a hint of truth or element of of truth to what I'm telling you, and because of that, I'm like, wow, there's this. Now I feel disconnected. Now I feel almost disrespected, like my beliefs and and all the things that I have honed for my entire life. I really I believe this to be true about you, based on what I'm saying, and you're now questioning my very core, my beliefs too, right, and so it's like, if you can't even be open to the idea that I there might be something that I'm telling you might be different at that point, then it's I'm like, okay, maybe we're snug with that.
Charles:Yeah, I don't need you to believe everything, but just don't completely dismiss my opinions on things interaction, the kind of conversations, the kind though I know I'm telling you exactly how I want you to show up for me so this relationship will work, and the other person, probably with their actions, maybe with their words, is saying that's not what you really need. And I think that a lot of the red pill manosphere is really good at saying don't believe women when they tell you what they want out of a man or out of a relationship. They think they know, but they don't actually Really say that. Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. It's more.
Charles:I mean, every pickup artist who has a book or a method to sell is going to tell you don't listen to the women in your life when they tell you what they want. Listen to me when I tell you what they want, yeah, want, yeah, all right, hey look, and there's something to be said for it's very hard for us, as humans, to really communicate exactly what motivates us and exactly what we're looking for. But you got to figure out a way to trust the people that you have in your life, especially people who have done any level of work with therapy or you know, any kind of mental health, where it's like listen when people do the work to come up with their boundaries and their needs and they're willing to express that to you, to say okay, yeah, but this guy on the internet says that's not really what really buys women men Right and see that's interesting, because then you're still being open to the idea that you don't have it all figured out.
Dan:But the people that you're still being open to the idea that you don't have it all figured out, but the people that you're choosing to then consider, are ones that are have a vested business interest in making money off of you, versus somebody who has a life interest, a love interest in you. And so if, oh my god, that's, that's really not a good idea, right? So I was going to say is like, if you're coming from the perspective of I have it most of everything figured out, kind of like saxon does, when when a piper questions him on you don't know everything he's like about the whole dream situation, somebody like that then you're not really open to anybody. Okay, I understand that.
Dan:But then if you are then putting your your faith and that's why I think a lot of times people get nuts when you try to give advice to family members. You love them, you care about them, but until they hear it from some outside force that's somebody here all the time and I'm guilty of that too giving advice and family not taking it but then they'll hear from somebody else. It's like this exact same thing that I just said, and then, all of a sudden, they take action on it or they consider it. I mean, I'm guilty of that too, for sure, but I yeah, I consider that being frustrating.
Charles:Yeah, yeah. And I would say, if you do it, if you find yourself in a relationship with a partner who's willing to share what they need with you, and then you're not willing to believe it and act on it, it's like, okay, I mean, you're free to do that, but you're you're on a countdown to the to the end of that relationship and a lot of times when you say what they need from you.
Dan:A lot of times too, is it's a self-esteem type of thing. It's just like you're really shitting on yourself, like you are not this broken or unattractive or whatever else that is and I've been with people who think they are, and so it's just like part of it is like I feel offended, like that You're not even considering that I I might have some truth in what I'm saying or that there's another option. But also now is like, if you've got this really low opinion of yourself, you think what do you think of me? That you think what do you think of me? That I am attracted to you on dating or whatever. That is Right, right and I was like it. So now I just mind. See what. What is going through my mind, okay, what's going through her mind when it comes to her opinion of me?
Charles:yeah, it yeah is. Is she? Is she a charity case for you or are you also a piece of shit? I mean, what's the yeah? Is she doing a? She do me a favor? Thank my god, she yeah. Yeah, that's it okay. So let's speaking of well, it's for the other side of that. Let's talk about guy, talk a little his little crush that he has on his girl well, not really his girl, right, his friend. Yeah, I guess one of one of the things I thought about him having a crush on her and the way that my friends who are women talk about crushes. In my experience, the enthusiasm that they share in conversations about crushes are always about them having a crush on someone else and never about someone else having a crush on them. No, I never hear girls who are excited to share oh, this guy I work with has a crush on me and it's so much fun.
Dan:Oh, that's never end use. It's so much fun, it's so annoying.
Charles:Correct, yeah, yeah, where a conversation like oh, there's this guy I work with. He just started a couple of weeks ago and he's so cute, I have such a crush on him Like they're excited about that, like it's fun for them to have the crush. But I can't think of times when they talk about being fun for, okay, somebody else to have a crush on.
Dan:Now I've got a question for the people that have been expressing this to you, where you know they've complained that they don't have that somebody's got a crush on them. When they explain to you the situation, do you feel they've done an adequate job in terms of communicating their disinterest to them, or Well, I would not, let me.
Charles:Let me be honest. I don't even know that they've used the language of this guy's got a crush on me because there's almost something positive and fun about oh, it's a crush that me because there's almost something positive and fun about oh, it's a crush. That is. That's usually not the way I hear it. It's usually more like this guy at the office. He's just like I can tell he likes me and he's constantly around and he won't leave me alone. It's okay. So it's like they're. Yeah, the positivity is over crushed us.
Dan:You can make it as it would be so then it sounds like they're not managing the situation. Let's say, to manage him out of the office and manage him to spend less time there at that point.
Charles:I mean that puts a burden on them that I don't. I'm not sure it's not. It's not your job to manage the guy who doesn't know how to directly and honestly state his interest in a way that makes you feel flattered and safe. Good point. Good point, yes.
Dan:Okay. So yeah, it's. It's not gotten to the stage of where it is out on the table yet, so to speak. Right, correct, okay, all right.
Charles:So, yeah, all right, I think and I think the language that women choose to discuss that can you can sort of get a feel for how competent the guy is at behaving in a way that's attractive and flirty and hinting at his interest and without it, yeah, it's like, once again, as we've said in previous episodes, being honest about your desire, your intention, in a way that is emotionally intelligent and and sophisticated, given your the environment that you met the person in it's like that's that's not creepy. Person in it's like that's that's not creepy. So what's creepy is when you don't really understand the way to communicate interest, given either the work relationship or the way that you met the person, like, given your environment. You need to figure out how do I express interest to this person in a way that will let them feel free to say either yes or no and know that it's not going to be a big deal, okay, so up until this point in this season.
Dan:Do you think italk?
Charles:has been creepy or not. I think he's been on the edge of creepy. I think he is. No, I I think he's he's passive. Certainly we can agree that he's very passive. He's willing to drop some hints and even make some arguments for why he would be a good partner. But he has gotten indicators of disinterest that he's just kind of, in a polite way, steamrolling past those indicators of disinterest. Yeah, you know, yeah, where, when you get an indication, way steamrolling past those indicators of disinterest, yeah, you know, yeah, where, when, when you get an indication that a girl's not you're interested in a girl romantically and she's indicated that she's not interested in you romantically certainly not at the same level. He should have been taking some steps to step, to step back, some steps to step back where, yeah, he should have withdrawn some of her, some of his attention and interaction, because he's he's essentially going to, he's returning to a dry well where the healthy thing for him to do is not keep going back to the dry well.
Dan:It's, it's fine, find other wells, they may not be dry if, if you remember the line, like the line that Srutala's bodyguards gave him when they were talking, they ran into him in one of the scenes of this episode.
Charles:Oh yeah, after he invites himself to be one of her bodyguards.
Dan:Yes, and you go oh, turkey trying to become a rooster, huh, a little turkey trying to become a rooster, yeah. And they're like yeah, you can't even get, you can't even do what they pay you, the one thing they pay you, you know what I'm saying?
Charles:Yeah, and listen, those, those guys were. I mean, I didn't find them to be professional or curious with the way they were interacting with him, but we can make certain things, certain assumptions about what it takes to be a adequate bodyguard in Thailand.
Dan:I mean, think about a bodyguard that needs. You're basically throwing yourself your life in front of the person you're protecting.
Charles:Yeah, or as part of the protection of that person, you're willing to get a little rough with other people that might be a threat. Yeah, get a little rough with other people that might be a threat, yeah, when I mean you don't even know for sure if they're going to be a threat, but you're willing to put yourself in front of them and act and speak and possibly physically act in a way to protect. Yeah, you've got to be again, I. I think a bodyguard in america might be a little bit different, but it's still like you. You've got to be willing to put yourself in between and act out physically if you need to. Yeah, and it would seem that guy talk has not demonstrated to anybody that he is willing or able to do this. Yeah, so volunteering for a bodyguard position, it's I mean just just from a professional resume point of view, he's he's kind of writing checks here that he doesn't know he can actually cash.
Dan:I think it's a great way of rounding out his character a little bit more with that type of storyline.
Charles:I've got ambition, but I'm also a little naive as far as what it would take to be in this role that I am inviting myself or volunteering for.
Dan:Right before he asks her, they show him praying to one of the gods. He put some bananas down for you and so he was praying. And then he tells Mook later on I was really impressed that I risked myself for her and I asked if I could be her bodyguard, and I just want to let you know that I put that out in the doors.
Charles:She's like, oh, that's nice, yeah, yeah, it's yeah, the the whole thing that happened with him during the robbery getting bogged on the head, that and, in the way, not not the fact that it happened but the way he tried to a little bit use that and and sort of capitalize on it with his relationship with her. Yeah, it's like you're setting yourself up for someone to be pitied and have sympathy where, if anything, I think the most attractive way he could have handled it like yeah, it happened, it wasn't a big deal and maybe even a little bit of. I wish I I could have done more. If I had to do over again, I would have yeah, but not not this. Oh, you're so brave. Oh, thank you.
Dan:It's like it took the opportunity. Yeah, Seek presented it, but he didn't like dissuade it. And, like you said, come full circle and just go look.
Charles:this is not what I'm about yeah, he should have been a little dismissive of the whole thing, like, yeah, I could have handled better, because that would have reflected the reality of the situation, he could have handled it better. I would assume that we know that he's been in that role for a couple of years. He's probably received some training where, so he probably should have been Even just a little bit better. Yes, so he's definitely that's know. It was just a little bit better.
Dan:Yes, there, there, yeah. So he's definitely that's, I think, also questioning a little bit.
Charles:Starts to question his role a little bit there, as right, and then he probably felt that he'd overcompensate for it, right. So, yeah, that's that's where we are with him. And then we have a little bit on put together about greg aka gary and and just sort of it's like, yeah, we know, we don't know from previous seasons of white lotus exactly how bad of a guy this is. We don't know how involved he was in his ex-whites death, if he was at all, because a lot of what we saw in season two they kind of implied that there was something going on with the way that she, she, she found herself in a situation that felt dangerous and she reacted to it in a way that may have been appropriate or may not have, because they never explicitly tell told us, the viewer, what kind of situation she was in in season two. Right, but she certainly passed away under violent circumstances.
Dan:Well, what was interesting is adds to a little bit of the story is, if you remember chloe talking to chelsea about greg and his, his past. She's like, oh, he had an ex-wife who's apparently looked like really crazy, how crazy. Well, apparently she was so crazy she walked into the water and drowned herself, something like that. That was objectively not true, right, and you never talked about, you never talked about the what would actually happen. And so then you're like, okay, most likely he did do something based on that.
Charles:Or maybe, maybe, or maybe he's just trying to escape the stigma of what happened to this and maybe that's what the police currently and as well.
Dan:He's just trying to escape the stigma of what happened to this, eric, and maybe that's what the police currently give her and as well Correct, and so he's got to go.
Charles:Yeah, we don't know exactly what happened in that scenario and we can see reasons for him making up a fake name and a fake identity to escape either the suspicion or the stigma. Personally, I think they're making it clear that he probably is a pretty bad guy. Who did you know who may have orchestrated her murder? That never happened. She died as a result of an accident Because she was in a situation where she thought she was going to get murdered?
Dan:Great, because he don't fully know. Now he's got a different identity and he goes, tells Rick, I did all this and that, because he doesn't want people to put it together that he's greg from land man and, yeah, he's basically a bureaucrat, right so, but at the same time he's like anybody digging into his hat, right, it doesn't mean he definitely murdered her, but it's looking that way, but you don't know for sure. It's that clear cut. And so, yeah, I think white does a great job of having these tiny little openings still that aren't like closed off, and I think that's why we keep coming back to watch more yeah and yeah.
Charles:I think it's great and it's it's great to see how all this, through the prism of these guys acting the way they think they have to act because of expectations, and because of expectations and because of pressure and because of circumstances they've put themselves in, it's like what's the right thing to do, what's the effective thing to do, what's the thing that I do to fulfill this role that I've crafted for myself, and it and I think they do such a good job of leaving these little open loops throughout all of the seasons that they could easily have a side projects where they show you the background of some of the characters, how they got to that point.
Dan:I would watch a lot of them.
Charles:Yeah, it's just a matter of is Mike White going to do the cash grab to tell those stories to he? May, he may not.
Dan:Maybe after White, Lotus is all done for the Ruin series. Yeah, have the spinoffs easily.
Charles:I kind of hope he doesn't do that, though I hope he does, I want more.
Dan:I want more.
Charles:Yeah.
Dan:I don't care if it's good for him, he deserves it. It's his brilliant stuff.
Charles:He only deserves it because he's putting brilliant stuff out there and he's not doing it for the art, not the money. I can think of so many series that have had their either reimagining or they did extra seasons, and it's always not as good as the first run. Understood, Understood. Maybe you're different, Maybe you'll beat Smeagol, Maybe you'll beat that. I'll beat some of the guys. Yeah, I think of some of the series that I really enjoyed so much and it's like God, if loss came back. For where are they? 20 years old is like no, thank you, I don't want to see that. And yeah, I mean I. What are star Wars coming back? Or extra Lord of the Rings movies? It's like it never feels as good as the original.
Dan:Sure, but there's enough people out there that you do want to see.
Charles:The masses are masses. John Adams or Alexander Hamilton? One of the two, I don't know if they actually ever said it, but they got credit for saying that, so it's like yeah you need.
Charles:I want the artists in the driver's seat of what art they make, not the casual fans, yeah, and so you put the casual fans in charge and then, yeah, you get things like the latest Star Wars trilogy. Yeah, really that's yeah, the fans and the executives coming together to define what art should be made. How else could this go? Anyway, all right, dad, we'll come back next week with episode four, awesome. Okay, that's it for today's conversation. If you want full audio and video episodes or anything else we feel like sharing head over to mindfully masculinecom Next up, things get even more layered as dynamics start to shift. Power gets challenged and some of these guys find themselves in deeper water than they expected. Episode 4 is going to have a lot to unpack and we're ready for it. We'll catch you then.
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