The Communication Upgrade Every Man Needs

In this conversation, Charles and Dan unpack one of the most practical interviews they’ve ever heard on The Diary of a CEO—Steven Bartlett’s talk with body-language expert Vanessa Van Edwards.
Instead of vague “be confident” advice, this episode focuses on clear, actionable steps that make communication more intentional and effective.

They break down:

• How warmth and competence shape every first impression
• The body-language cues that build trust (and the ones that destroy it)
• Why open posture and visible palms instantly change how people read you
• The difference between uptalk and downtalk—and how Obama mastered it
• What AirPods, small talk, and friendship say about modern connection
• The subtle gestures that make others mirror and agree with you

If you’ve ever felt misunderstood, overlooked, or disconnected, this episode shows how to realign your physical cues with your intentions—and become someone people actually hear.

** The link I forgot to include to the YouTube video of Vanessa Van Edwards on The Diary of a CEO: https://youtu.be/VHUrdELKjDw?si=Co1Hxdn70PWjl9V1

🎧 Watch or listen to every episode at mindfullymasculine.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Open Posture, Palms, First Impressions
• 2:25 Why Communication Drives Success
• 5:50 Ambiverts, Energy, and Social Settings
• 9:05 AirPods, Small Talk, and Making Friends
• 15:30 From Small Talk to Real Friendship
• 20:40 Likability, Popularity, and Liking Others
• 24:15 Posture Cues and The Trust Window
• 28:20 Chin Up vs. Down, Ancient Signals
• 33:10 Reading Quirks Without Writing People Off
• 36:45 Certainty in Voice: Downspeaking vs Uptalk
• 40:00 Eye Cues and Lower-Lid Compression

Transcript

Charles (00:00.088)
Keep an open body posture, show your torso, keep your shoulders back and your arms visible. Don't sit like this, which I like to.

She said nothing in front of you nothing nothing blocking you stay open

Show your palms as fast as you can, especially when you first are meeting someone. So even whether that's on Zoom or you're meeting someone in person, display the fact that there's nothing in your hand as early in the interaction as you can. thought that was really interesting. Welcome to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. This is Charles. Today, Dan and I are diving into one of the most value packed conversations we've ever heard on the diary of a CEO.

It's Stephen Bartlett's interview with behavioral investigator and body language expert Vanessa Van Edwards, and it is packed with concrete actionable advice on how to communicate better in every area of life. We're not just talking theory here. This episode is all about steps you can actually take, how to project warmth and competence, use body language intentionally, and build stronger personal and professional relationships by mastering the signals you send.

You can find the full video and audio version of this episode, along with every past episode of mindfully masculine at our website, mindfully masculine.com. Thanks and enjoy. Good morning, Dan. you doing? How are you? I'm doing okay. So you and I, watched a long video diary of a CEO podcast. We were looking at some of his most popular episodes and he did one with Vanessa van Edwards. was frankly one of the most.

Dan (01:10.274)
Morning, Come well.

Charles (01:30.542)
value rich conversations I've ever seen because and to her, give her all the credit for it. mean, he's a great interviewer and stuff, but he's a lot of talk. She was so prepared. I mean, she knew pretty much minute by minute exactly what she was going to say, what she was going to recommend, what she was going to cover. I mean, it was one of the most well organized interviews I've ever seen because yeah, he did not have a ton to do and he was answering as many questions from her as he was asking of her. So yeah, she.

Hold on

Charles (02:00.172)
She was exquisitely prepared for that, for that interview. And I really appreciate somebody that goes to that level of preparation.

she made it interesting too. The plants, know, there are all different types of stories, all different types of scenarios, all different... She really brought it all together.

Yeah, I will certainly share a link to the original interview that we're about to talk about because I would say, you know, we're, we're going to cover some of the high points, but it is worth it to just watch her cook and, go through all the stuff she knows about communication and body language and vocal communication and all that stuff. There's you can, you can get so much better at your communication with other humans just by knowing what you should do, what you should avoid and practicing it. And you know,

And she mentions like, so many of us have this idea of, you know, I'm either a good communicator or a bad communicator. And it's like, that's, that's all based on what you do and what you do is based on what you know. And what you know is, based on what you've learned and what you've practiced. it's like your, your current level of communication proficiency has very little to do with who you are and all to do with what you do. And you can choose to do new things to make yourself better at it. When I was at.

podcast, move them out in Dallas this year. I, I had a conversation with a gal who was very active in toast masters and was, was really encouraging me to, to get active myself. And she gave great advice. She's like, you know, what you're going to want to do is go and sample. you're, if you're anywhere near a big city, there's going to be a ton of meetings and a ton of chapters, and you should go check out all of them before you decide which one to invest your time in.

Charles (03:40.928)
And see who the people are, see what the style is, see all that stuff, and then get involved with one that, that sort of matches what you're looking for and just go and practice, get better and better at communicating with people. And I think it's, it's about time I should, I should go ahead and do that because I do want to get better at communication. And this has inspired me to take some concrete steps to do that.

Yeah, I mean, Vanessa even said on the podcast that success is required or indication is required for success in general. Any type of success requires great communication skills and the level of success that you get is really dependent on, you know, this is like the factor to work on to improve your success rate in any, in any scenario.

It's really hard to think about any job, any personal goal, any personal relationship that you can't get better at and have higher quality participation in by becoming a better communicator. Like I really can't think of anything that you don't get better at by being a better communicator because when you're verbal and written communication, and this mostly focuses on verbal body language, but when your communication gets better and more disciplined and more intentional, your thoughts.

get more disciplined and intentional as well.

point she made was that doesn't matter how smart you are, what you know, if you can't communicate that to somebody else or you can't get along with other people, it's almost wasted at that point because nobody is going to be receptive or open to hearing how smart you are, all the ideas you have or how brilliant you might be and the value that you are able to bring to other people, the world is going to be lost if you can't express that and other people don't want to hear it.

Charles (05:21.464)
Yeah.

Charles (05:29.902)
Yeah, there was one point where she was discussing how, um, in order to get your, your thoughts across in a persuasive way, you have to sort of a, um, of a table or a matrix that she laid out about competence and warmth and how, if you are not, I guess it was four quadrants where if you were low competence and low warmth, nobody wanted to hear from you. If you were high competence.

and low warmth, then yes, you'll have good ideas that people will just not be persuaded by. If you're too high in warmth and too low in competence, then it'll feel like you're being a little too... Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

little bit like flighty little airhead little like all over the place type of yeah

like, yeah, he's, he's sweet, but he doesn't have a thought in his head, you know, that kind of thing. And that if you're even too high on competence and too high on warmth, then I think that's when she said you can come across as being like a little too salesy and a little too inauthentic, you're like, you're trying too hard. And so just finding a balance between those and learning where that balance is for you based on part your, natural energy. Are you an introvert? Are you an extrovert? Are you an ambivert? And I was not familiar with,

ambivert very much before this I had heard of introverted extrovert and probably extroverted introvert before but it didn't really hold a lot of meaning for me like okay so you you don't really you don't feel like you fit into either one of them completely congratulations good for you none of us do but when she went into amba version I was like my gosh that is that is definitely me to a tee where and that that lines up with my with my Myers Briggs as well

Charles (07:15.074)
because based on the mood I'm in when I take it, the E and the I can kind of flip-flop on me. Sometimes I'm an I, sometimes I'm an E.

So why don't you explain to the audience whatever.

And Amber as I understood it from what she explained was in the right sort of environment and scenario, you can get energy from your interactions with other people where in the wrong environment or the wrong scenario, you will be absolutely drained from having to deal with people. that really, I mean, that is me dead on. If I'm in a situation where

I feel comfortable, I feel competent and it doesn't even have to be like, well, yeah, everybody feels good hanging out with their friends. no, I could be, I could be hanging out with strangers or people I don't know very well, but if it's a setting where I feel comfortable, I know what to expect. know what level of participation is required of me. Then I can still have a really exciting, really fun time. But, if I'm, if I'm in a scenario or situation where I just feel like.

Okay, I'm doing this because I have to, I'm doing this because I've convinced myself that I should do it. Then, you know, yeah, my impulse is going to be shrink down into my phone and just ignore the world around me and just spend my time just thinking about things I enjoy thinking about instead of interacting with people that I don't want to interact with.

Dan (08:41.291)
Yeah, it's interesting. She made the point, speaking of distractions and looking at phones, she made the point of AirPods being basically such a danger to people's communication skills and, the connections that we make with people by everybody wearing AirPods. There's a lot less casual interaction that people have with each other because they are so focused on what they're listening to. And she says now in the gym, if you see somebody without AirPods, you're like,

What's wrong with that person? It's weird to see people without listening to something. But what she said was it was those little interactions when you walk by somebody and it's like, Hey, what's up? you know, how's weekend type of thing. But if they got AirPods in, it sends these signals that we don't, we don't want to be bothered. Right. We don't, don't kind of talk to us. We're kind of on our own thing. And then you feel like you're interrupting somebody if they have AirPods in. of the, one of the parts of the podcast that, I guess Steven was speaking at a big conference and

Like a thousand people there and he's taking audience questions and a guy in the front, a young man stands up and he's just like, Hey, I got a question. How do you make friends? And as adults, and they talked about that as adults, we, it's, it's difficult for us to make friends because we're not with the same people all the time. Like we are in grade school or, or in, in, in high school where we have the same classes and the same people know over and over again. So that small talk is just kind of happens naturally. It's like, I'm going to buy a pencil or the pen or whatever, you know, and.

And as adults, we don't have that many opportunities where we're going to the same place and seeing the same faces. So those small, that small talk, finding that common ground, the real innocent, Hey, how's your weekend type of thing? That was one of Vanessa's pieces of advice or what's coming up for you this weekend. It sounds so simple, but a lot of us, like we don't, some people are, I, I, I'm amazed. see some people in the gym, some who are brilliant at it. They are just so natural at.

making small talk and conversations and things and it's no, but they don't, but if you saw it, you're thinking about you trying. Right. But what's nice is you also, by also having the headphones out, I get to see great examples of people who are so naturally conversational and gifted at creating conversations and building new relationships. It starts to kind of rub off on you a little bit.

Charles (10:41.218)
Correct, yeah.

Dan (11:00.558)
And, you know, and then you realize, okay, this is not so hard, it's not so difficult, right, as an adult to try to make some friends. And granted, I haven't made any, like, great friends out of any of this just yet. But I'm feeling more more comfortable and more recognized that, you know.

Yeah, I think guys in particular do have a little bit of a challenge when it comes to going from small talk to, you know, asking another guy to hang out recreationally together for the first time. Like, Hey man, why don't we, why don't we go get dinner or some.

Okay, so I, no, no, like, so that's, I would never do that. I would basically say-

I would do I would do that is so if I had repeated, okay? That is with somebody at some point down the road. Yes. Yeah cool guy. I'd to get to know him better

actually would be like, I'm going to, or me and my girlfriend are going to, they have, yeah, one of this weekend, know, yeah, we're going to this event. we're going to this event, you know, and then maybe there's shared interest or you both end up going to the same event because you're kind of local. hey, let's meet up. And then you meet up there and then, know, and then that point, then after that, you can ask him out on a one-on-one dinner date.

Charles (11:58.222)
Poor Alerix

Charles (12:10.53)
Yeah.

Charles (12:17.102)
Yeah. Yeah. I've not, uh, I've not made a new guy friend and turned it into a let's go out one-on-one. God, I can't, I can't remember the last time I did that. No, I think I do that. Like going out one-on-one for dinner is you're probably my newest friend. I've gone one out dinner and we met in 2007. Right.

So thing is, it's like, would do it after I've hung out with a bunch of guys in a group a few times, doing one-on-one with any of them that I, you know, I clicked with no problem at that point, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't lead with. Yeah. Let's.

Sure.

Charles (12:49.942)
No, I agree. I tell you about the not leading with that. That does make sense. Yeah. Who's, who's your newest friend that you've done a one-on-one dinner with? You. Seriously? Probably.

I mean, Kurt, I didn't do dinner with, but we've gone and gotten like coffee together and we, yeah, we went to like a very casual restaurant at one point.

It was just the two of you though. Yeah. Okay. I don't think I've ever done that one on one with Kurt.

Yeah, we did that a couple of times.

But it was like one of those things where like Kurt walks in, was a place that Kurt knew and he knows everybody, the owner and the waitress and everybody else there too. So it wasn't really like a group thing, but there were so many people that he knew there that it was still really, it really kind of wasn't like a one-on-one where we have dinner together or we'll go to a place that we don't know. There's a place like Kurt knew.

Charles (13:32.238)
Gotcha. He's a little newer than you. Alright. It's still crazy though. Thir- what was that? 13 years ago. That's my newest friend that I'm comfortable enough to go to dinner with one on one. That's interesting. I wonder, I'll have to talk to my gal pals and see like if-

Dan (14:05.346)
girls do a lot more. I should say that's not true. I should say the girls that I've known have been much more social and have that natural gift of connecting with people much more than I do. And maybe that's part of the reason why I'm attracted to them is something I admire in them is and I'm learning a little bit of something from them. know, my girlfriend is amazing at that. She connects with people in her sleep, basically. I mean, she is such a natural and people are just drawn to her and gravitate towards her and

It's just, yeah-

could not handle that man, just having her of that. Having a girl who's her own extraversion is just bringing all these other people into my life because I'm around her.

That's what makes it easy for me. Once somebody is in, like I'm, we talked about like getting in the door with other things the other day or this morning. For me, it's the same thing. It's, it's once somebody is like in the circle, like I'm great. I'm no problem talking, communicating, whatever. If somebody has like broken the ice and brought somebody into our little circle or a group of people I've got, I'm totally comfortable at that point, but it's for me, my, my challenge has always been.

bringing complete strangers and making those initial connections strong enough to where they are now becoming part of our circle. And so that's not something that I've got a lot of skill in.

Charles (15:25.272)
No, I mean either. I think think I typically I think my long relationships have been with introverts, introverted women.

Hmm

Yeah, I think that's true, but I'll have to, yeah, I have to talk.

You. Well, that I know that your relationships with absolutely.

Interesting. All right. Let's. And we both have our own set of notes here, so I am fine with you just bringing up the next thing you'd like to talk about that interests you. And then we'll just kind of go back and forth till we run out of time.

Dan (15:56.62)
No, no problem. Let's see here. Absolutely. The interviews of somebody had done a study of all different high school kids, right? think that...

What makes somebody popular? What do popular people have in common?

That's not something it was obvious to me. The answer was not obvious to me. Stephen was guessing it was athletic.

I like the way that she self-deprecating. Opened it with him like why don't you guess what you think the most the most common trait across popular kids are what do you think it is and he threw out some ideas and stuff and he was nowhere near just like I was nowhere near actual. So tell everybody what is it that makes kids popular what do all the kids that are popular what do they all have in common?

Insane

Dan (16:39.978)
And I thought back to the popular kids in my school and that wasn't always the case. Well, no, actually just because you're popular. So somebody might've been a good athlete, but he's a little bit of a douche bag. So he was popular with the other, some of the other athletes because he was like funny, but some of the more popular people, he never would have won like homecoming king or anything.

I was going to say, homecoming king, homecoming queen.

So he was, he was a little cocky and arrogant and funny, but he was, he definitely did not like a lot of people, but the people who did and both girls and guys absolutely fit that mold of they were out in the hallway saying, Hey Bob, Hey Susan, Hey Joe, how's your weekend? Just like walking through and making those little connections. And yeah, lots of people liked them because they

clearly liked other people. And it was funny because I felt like she was talking to you and I when she's like, yeah, um, sorry for all the people who are like, Oh, I don't like other people are like, complain about other people and stuff a lot. as much as I do, I, I feel like at least hearing that has opened me up to looking for more things to like in other people at least.

Yeah.

Charles (18:02.766)
Interesting. uh, I mean, my, first thing I thought when I heard it was like, okay, I guess I don't need to be popular because I'm not going to start trying to tell myself to like people that I don't like. But, um, yeah, I would, I would agree that the, the most pop, like the really top tier, most popular people I went to school with were often described as, he's a, he's a nice guy or she's a sweet girl. It was always like something that

was the main descriptor of them was about their disposition and how they got along with people. Often they also happened to be, know, if not good looking, at least cute. They had a positive personality and yeah, I think they probably, if you were to survey them, they probably would have had a long list of people that they liked.

And that probably gave them some of the confidence to go and be a little bit more extroverted and talk to people and engage with people. And the reason why it's important not just to be, not to be popular, but what she said was they've done other studies and said that the people who are the most successful in life are also the ones who are liked the most. So this is kind of, it's not necessarily just because you want to be popular, but the ones that people want to do business with, want to connect with.

They are likable people and the way to become likable is to like other people, right? Is to be interesting, you should be interested.

Yes, I like both of those. One of the points I wanted to talk about was keeping open body posture, show your torso, keep your shoulders back and your arms visible. Don't sit like this, which I like to. Right.

Dan (19:35.059)
She said nothing in front of you, nothing blocking you, stay open.

show your palms as acid as you can, especially when you first are meeting someone. So even whether that's on zoom or you're meeting someone in person, display the fact that there's nothing in your hand as early in the interaction as you can. thought that was really interesting. Naturally. I, especially if I'm like in a group meeting and there's one person presenting and I'm like considering what they're saying, this is one of my more natural positions to take. good for me in that the, other thing that.

blew my mind was when she said, if you want to appear both engaged and confident, maximize the distance between your shoulders and your earlobes.

Yeah, I-I, that was a weird one too. I was like, what?

But then I started acting it out and I'm like, she's absolutely right. As you're like this, it's like, no, I'm waiting for something bad to happen. Where if. Yeah. kind of run out, right. Shoulders sort of rolled back and yeah, that, that does feel so much more just open to whatever is, coming my way. And yeah, I never, never even heard of that or considered that before, but it's like, my gosh, that.

Dan (20:25.899)
where if you're like.

Dan (20:32.856)
You're relaxed.

Charles (20:51.598)
That makes total sense.

The other one that, really kind of blew my mind a little bit was when people pass each other in the hall. At least she said it was with men and not necessarily with women. If you greet someone and you raise up your, head and say, what's up or hello, it's somebody that you know. Whereas if it's somebody you don't know morning, you might put your head down. And the reason was by lifting your chin up.

you're actually showing that you're vulnerable to them and that they're familiar and you feel you trust them because you're exposing. And so many of this, these, these tips come from us from thousands of years ago as cave people. thing with the palms. It's you're showing you, you, you are a friend, right? You're not hiding anything. And even when you like walk into a room and you see somebody, you show them your palms.

both hear that.

Charles (21:40.397)
You don't be

Dan (21:49.494)
that comes from. It's so interesting to me why you shouldn't also keep your why you should not keep your hands under the table. Why it activates something in our amygdala.

You know that, and that did, that was an action item I took away for the podcast, which is right now my camera, hello folks and your camera. have these mounted onto the table. So you and I have to be very conscious about not resting our arms on the table because when we do it shakes the cameras. think I'm going to move the cameras back to the tripods so that we can table. can, can basically she, she recommended, you know, pulling the chair all the way up to the table and we.

Based on what she did say, we are already at the optimal distance we should be from each other to have the conversation, which I'm happy about that. But yeah, pulling the chair all the way up, not having arms on the chairs and then being able to kind of lead into each other while we talk. think, I think I'm going to, you know, I've had the rewire of the studio on my action item list for a long time. And I think it's going to be time to do that pretty soon and move the cameras off to, I messed up the shot. was a little too close.

based on where the cameras currently are. But I do want to move the cameras off and then maybe also might look at some different solutions for the microphones too, because... right now, even the microphones being on the desk may be a little bit jostled by if we decide to put our elbows on the table. So I may look at putting a hole in the desk and then having a mic...

stand from the floor, come up through the desk or something like that so that kind of the desk is touched. doesn't impact our, uh, our sound and see if that might give us a little more flexibility with how we sit and how we communicate. But, uh, yeah, that was really, that was great stuff that, that she shared. also like the idea of when it comes, I she said all the great Ted talkers move their hands a ton when they're, when they're talking. And I think that's a great idea. think.

Charles (23:52.082)
and I, I typically do tend to do that when I am speaking on a topic that I'm either excited about or really prepared for, or ideally both, right? But she did say that you have to gesture within the trust window where if your gestures are too low, like your, if your hands are too low and you're moving them around, it communicates weakness. And if you raise your hands too high, when you're talking, it makes you seem man.

Yeah.

Charles (24:22.028)
So there's like a certain range that your hands should be in while you're talking and while you're gesturing. It makes sense. For people to feel good about it and not feel weird or awkward.

Thanks.

Dan (24:31.832)
But when you think about it, absolutely makes sense. But it goes to show how much of this is intuitive in us and human beings without us even realizing it. But the brilliant thing is you can figure out why you feel a certain way about somebody and you might be able to give them another chance because you might say, okay, look, they're maybe, you know, they're good people, but they seem a little bit crazy because their hands are all over here, but that's...

That's such a minor thing and you might not then shut them out right away. You might give them another chance and go, okay, look, it's just a little, you know, it's a little quirk, right? I'm not going to dismiss this whole person, even though I feel weird. I know why I feel weird. It's because it's doing this and then me. not intentionally doing that, right?

Right, but it could also, it is possible that it will slow down how quickly, you know, you might adapt to them or get comfortable around them. And that can have impact on both professional and personal relationships where it's like, know, somebody has a little tick they do with their body language that just does kind of rub you the wrong way a little bit. Yeah, you might not just write them off and say, I'm never gonna, you know, hang out with them again, but it could be, all right, well, you know, our friendship progression or our romantic progression.

It's going to be a little slower because of this kind of weird thing. So it's, it's important to, like you said, recognize those things in other people and, just understand, okay, I feel a little bit strange about this because they do this in a way that's a little off putting, but also look for those things in yourself to figure out what you're doing is, you know, could be a little off putting. And again, not necessarily made it your shit. Yeah. Yeah. I realized exactly. Yeah. And that's where it's important to have, you know, friends that you can.

that you don't.

Charles (26:16.098)
talk to you about stuff like this and ask them like, what's the thing I do that puts people off? Cause I remember when I asked you about that and no surprise, it's like you're on your phone too much, Charles. Like, yeah, you're right. am. Yeah.

I so it also kind of, I think it hints at the other piece that she was talking about when it comes to relationships was that when you don't know how somebody feels about you, that is actually worse than when you know somebody doesn't like you or when you know you don't like somebody else. They did that study saying, because it's saps so much energy, you trying to figure out, feel like I should like this. Like you're ambivalent about this person. I feel like I should have lunch with them, but I

kind of don't want to, and I'm not sure why. And she said that is much worse for our mental health than it is. I don't like that person because you've got that answer already. Or that person's toxic, whatever it is. I think that looking at being aware of all of these body language cues that we can have might give us a clue as to why I don't feel close to that person for some reason. And the dangerous thing with that is she said, can then send signals back to them.

right.

Dan (27:26.552)
So we're seeing, maybe their hands are all crazy. And we're like, there's something a little bit weird. And so I just felt myself in my face, sneer a little bit, just talking about this, right? So now you're sending them signals that you don't kind of like them. And then before that, then they send a signal back that they don't like you. And now it becomes a vicious cycle. And for some reason, for no real obvious reason, you just don't like that person. They don't like you and you've had very little interaction. And so I feel...

If you're aware of these, you know, these other body language things, you might be able to avoid that a little bit or circumvent it, or at least settle on, know I don't like that person or yes, I definitely like that person. Cause she said, and I forgot exactly how, why it was such a bad thing other than it just saps a lot of your time and energy, your mental energy spending, thinking about this person and worrying about this relationship with this person for, because you just don't know how they feel.

Yeah, I would say that, I I don't know, I will push back a little bit to say that if someone has body language that makes you feel awkward, could be for a good reason. yeah. I mean, they have developed that body language based on their own experiences. And, you know, if somebody is communicating to me that they have high anxiety, for example, through their body language, then, you know, when it comes to dividing up into groups for group projects, I may not want...

to join the group that they're going to be in charge of because they've built a life of communicating their high anxiety state to people through their body language. It's like, okay, I don't have anything against you. I don't dislike you. But when it comes to a grade or a work project that I'm going to be accountable for, I don't know that I necessarily want to jump onto your ship and let you be the captain.

What she was saying was that's a better state to be in than not knowing. Like what my point is I'm, I'm saying, yeah, this is important stuff to learn because you now know, all right, this body language is what's throwing me off. I'm not, whereas you might be in one of these group situations where you feel social pressure to team up with that person, even though they're giving you the ick, right? By learning this stuff, we know, okay, why are they giving me the ick? And because I have the ick. All right.

Dan (29:45.494)
I know they're not my people, right? And then that you can kind of go find somebody else, right?

Okay, so another thing, another point that I want to talk about was have you ever noticed that like sometimes you'll be talking to people and at the end of every sentence, they'll finish it with an up note instead of a down note. Dan, I got to tell you, man, I listened to a lot of podcasts where a lot of professors and doctors and experts and authors are being interviewed to talk about something that they are at the top of their field in.

Do I have it?

Charles (30:18.062)
And while they're talking about this thing that they know more about potentially than anybody else, they'll still always answer their question. With an up, with a drive. It's like, don't trust anything you're telling me right now because you're, you're asking me for permission. I hate it so much. And she, she points out that, uh, one of the things that made professor president Obama such a good order was he.

I listen for that. I need

Dan (30:36.239)
a question

Charles (30:46.124)
dramatically did the opposite where he answered questions with a down note. Yes. And it's like, I never noticed that that is what he did, but yeah, that really does when, yeah, you're declaring things, you're not asking things.

Right. And that also puts it the end of the sentence. You're the one that's controlling, right? You're ending the thought, the interaction at that point with that down statement.

Yes.

Charles (31:12.556)
Yeah. I thought that was, mean, number one, she reinforced the fact of why it is that I hate uptalk so much, but brand new exposure to the, to the idea of, of down speaker down talk. I had never known that that was another, the opposite version of it. And I never realized that that's what makes some of the people that we consider to be great orders feel like great orders because they're finishing on that down note. So that was huge. I really appreciated that one. the other thing that I picked up on.

was talking about, forget the name that she used, but it was something you do with your lower lids. Was it, was it squint or a compression? forget the language that she used, but you're doing it right now. You basically, you, you close your eyes a little bit and it helps you focus on things that are further away from you. I think she, yeah, she called it like lower lid compression or lower.

I just

Charles (32:06.974)
And yeah, when you do it, it looks like you're more focused and you're more paying attention. It's also a thing you do every time you get your portraits done professionally, like headshots. That's always something that the photographer tells me to do is kind of, you know, just do that little thing with the lower lids of your eyes.

Well, another one that I really liked was the sweat exercise that she talked about the experiment. And a bunch of heavy sweaters, one of them went to the gym and one wearing like sweat shirts and everything. Another one went skydiving and they then took those different sweatshirts or whatever they were wearing and had people sitting in an MRI machine smell the different. Whether it was from the gym, from the gym.

Yeah

Dan (32:57.038)
jumping out of the plane, the ones when they smelled the sweat from the gym, there was no change in their brain. When they smelled the sweat from somebody jumping out of the plane, it lit up their amygdala and their fear. And so what the fear part of their brain, and what she said is a lot of times we can smell fear on other human beings. So when you walk into a room and you're scared, you're giving off these pheromones that are signaling that you are scared and that

basically gets other people to feel a little anxious and a little uncomfortable because they're literally smelling the fear in you. And it's just like, wow, we really are animals, that's like, so amazing to me because it's such a, like to me, an invisible superpower, I feel, right? Like every time a year, like when, we can't like see it or measure it exactly or have a direct effect on it.

that it could be modified that way.

Dan (33:50.946)
But then to have it validated through like the MRI, that's, that's brilliant to me. reminds me of one of the other books I think we were talking about or somebody we talked about where they would have different dating. They'd be at t-shirt parties where they would have. Yeah. Where basically people would wear t-shirts, send it into the people organizing the dating party. All the people would go there and they would smell different t-shirts and then they would.

I think that was atomic attraction.

Charles (34:17.738)
ever imagine you with me

match people up based on what smells they responded to. And they said it was like a 70 % success rate in terms of people going on and actually having dates and connecting afterwards. So that's, mean, I love that stuff. It's I geek out on.

I'm low, run into you.

Charles (34:33.966)
I would never do that. Oh, smell this, smell this shirt. did like the, uh, the little cheat code. She, she specifically said, don't do this. And she, she shared it more on based of, you know, watch out if somebody's trying to do this to you so you can recognize it and, don't be taken in by it. I, I assume most people that listen to it are not going to think of it that way. They're going to think, Oh, I got to try this and see if it works. It was gesture like this. When you're talking to someone, when you want to persuade them of something being true.

Do this with your hand or you're rotating it with a couple fingers out in a forward motion while you nod your head. And when they start nodding their head, their brain will start making, because it's silly. Yes, your thoughts can follow your actions and your actions can follow your thoughts. That works both directions. And that's something that a lot of us don't realize is that, you know, when you put the smile on your face,

caused them to start nodding their head.

Dan (35:18.638)
There's fucking ways to agree with you.

Charles (35:32.768)
It can actually make you feel happier. Just like when you feel happy, puts a smile on your face and works in both directions. So yeah, trying to do this with people when you want to persuade them and get them to agree with you. and she did know, I think she did mention how you have to do it at the right tempo. Cause we do it too fast. Like, yeah, get to the point, hurry up. if you do it, you know, at a kind of.

Right, was kind of like get it

Dan (35:56.974)
She even said that if you're out in a group and you're, you're trying to meet somebody and have somebody come over and talk to you, see somebody cute from across the room, you can gesture in their direction. if there was like a cute girl over there and I want her to come talk to me, you can kind of do when you, when you have a conversation, you can kind of bring them in. So you're not even looking at them, but you can gesturing in their direction. If they're looking over at you at any point.

in Canada.

Dan (36:23.98)
that is really an open signal for them to come over and then talk to you.

One last thing I want to ask you your opinion about, cause I kind of disagreed with her on one thing that I heard her say, which was asymmetrical smiling. Yeah. I look at, I mean, number one, said fake smiles are bad. And a fake smile is when you smile with your mouth, but not your eyes. So there should be some, there needs to be some activation of the muscles on the sides of your eyes in order for a smile to look real. And I agree with that a hundred percent. There's yeah, plenty of,

plenty of people and plenty of pictures you can see some of that person's fake smiling. It's very clear. And, they went through the exercise with Steven where poor guy, he, I just wanted to scream at him through, you know, space and time and the computer. Like just think about laughing at something. The smile that you have in your face when you're actually laughing at something is usually your best smile. So whenever I pose for a picture and I have to smile with an open mouth, my teeth showing, just, I laugh about something. And when I laugh about something, that's, that's how I look the best.

an asymmetrical smile where you just kind of put one side of your mouth up. I like that. I think it looks good on me and other people. I think of it as kind of mischievous and like, he's, know, he's got a secret or he knows, he knows something or he has, he's having, she or she's having some fun about something. They're thinking about something. They're bemused. She kind of made it sound like a smirk is never the right move. And I kind of disagree with that. I think that's what, that's the impression I got.

I mean, I can say, I could see is, I don't think it's that big of a deal if you've got like a smirk or whatever, you know, I don't think it's going to be like, the forces are attractive or.

Charles (38:01.74)
If that person's... or that's your only smile, I could see that being a problem. But if it's... if it's something that you did...

Yeah. Yeah. If it's one picture, I think she was talking about profile pictures and like how, cause Steven was talking about a friend who he's really trying to

Find a partner. Her Instagram's full of pictures of her holding a glass. Yeah. cocktail. Right.

And I think there was kind of going through some good ideas of creating profile pictures and things and where she said, yeah, that's when she said not to do an asymmetrical smile. I mean, I don't think it's that big of a deal as long as yet, as long as you maybe have some normal smiles and you're not looking like the Joker, you know, in every single one. think, I think that's, that's fine. But she also made a great point where, know, and I think you've even said this too, is like what you lead with is really what people are going to,

think that that's or what somebody else might have said this, but whatever you lead with is what is going to attract people to you. And then you need to maintain that. So if you're trying to be, if you're like looking all sexy and you've got like, you know, you got a bikini on in your profile picture and you're like, why can't I meet a man who wants me as a girlfriend and have a relationship? Well, you're leading with sex. So that's what they're looking for. But she made a point of you should be leading with the things that really you could see yourself doing with that other person. So.

Charles (38:52.291)
What?

Dan (39:19.49)
whatever those hobbies are. So horseback riding or, know, you're, I don't know, you're going out to a museum or just take pictures of you doing those things. And you're going to say her theory was that the person looking at that picture will say, I want to do those things with that person too. consider the pictures that you've got on your profile in terms of attracting the people that.

push back a little bit on one thing you said, is I think if somebody's first profile pic is them in a bikini, that's not leading with sex, that's leading with, like the beach, I like summer, I like- If you ain't- Being on the water, I don't go to- Well, you could- This woman's obsessed with sex. Not- I didn't say- But I wouldn't even say it's leading with sex, the It's leading-

Well, I didn't say obsessed with sex, but...

this to me and that's, and to me, then you're going to attract people who are primarily interested in getting to know your body and not much else. That's, that's my, that's, that's where.

I don't think I see it that way. mean, I think, I mean, if it's a picture of her standing in her bathroom taking a picture in the mirror while she's wearing a bikini, then it's like, okay, yeah, this woman's just looking for an excuse to show off her body. But if in context, you know, she's at the beach playing volleyball or the beach getting some sun or something like that, bikini is the proper uniform for the thing she's currently doing in the picture, then I don't think that has anything to do with sex.

Dan (40:40.812)
I would agree with that. Right. And I guess that that's kind of what I was trying to say was if you're making that the main focal point of the picture, but if it's, if it's something yet, you're, you know, you're on a jet ski, you know, right.

That's different. Laying in a cheese lounge at the beach and you can see the sand and you can see the ocean in the picture.

Exactly. are not the main focal point is not your body. Right. At that point. That's the way. That's that's kind of what I was trying to say.

Okay. Then as long as you agree with me, then I agree with you. I already agree. We went over, but we'll go ahead and stop now. Again, I'll put a link to this. This is a great discussion. And if you care about being a better communicator and, trying to get across what you're trying to get across and not distracting people with other stuff that is just noise, listen to this and do what she says. I'm going to definitely check out her book and try to learn more about her and from her. Cause I really think she's a pro. She knows her stuff. Vanessa van Edwards, big fan. Thanks very much, Dan. Talk to you later.

Bye bye. Thanks for listening to the entire episode of Mindfully Masculine. If you enjoyed this conversation or picked up a few new tools for better communication, we'd love for you to share it with a friend who'd appreciate it too. You can find every episode in both audio and video form at mindfullymasculine.com. Thanks again, and we'll talk to you next time. Take care.