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The Chasing Daylight Podcast
Four amateur golfers in Las Vegas talk weekly about the game. This show is for the obsessed golf fan who likes to nerd out on the game's different topics. Look for interviews from insiders within the industry and banter from their opinions on golf's current state. And discussions about headline topics like the Major tournaments and the hot new clubs hitting the shelves. Real talk from real people who play the game.
The Chasing Daylight Podcast
311: An Interview with Lance Reader from Krank Golf
Get ready to be inspired by the story of Lance Reader from Krank Golf, who turned a broken driver into a driving force of innovation. Lance's journey from the world of professional long drive to crafting durable and high-performing drivers is a tale of creativity and perseverance. Listen as we uncover the fascinating evolution of Krank Golf, starting with the El Diablo driver that transformed long drive competitions and powering through to today's technology for everyday golfers. Lance shares how collaborating with a Chinese factory led to world championship titles and how Krank Golf's focus has shifted post-pandemic to revolutionize the golfing experience for amateurs.
Unveiling the secrets behind Krank Golf's success, Lance walks us through the distinct manufacturing techniques that set his drivers apart. We discuss the meticulous processes like cup face forging and dual welding that contribute to the unparalleled durability of their products. Krank Golf’s use of beta titanium has resulted in innovations that minimize ball curvature and maximize performance. This episode teases exciting new launches, including a mini driver and fairway woods, as well as the craftsmanship involved in producing custom drivers that eclipse mass-produced alternatives by major brands.
We also engage in a lively debate about the ongoing evolution of golf technology and equipment rules. Lance provides valuable insights into the impact of modern drivers and emphasizes the importance of choosing the right equipment for individual swing speeds. We explore the influence of Bryson DeChambeau, whose achievements with Crank drivers have propelled the brand's popularity to new heights. From the nuances of conforming versus non-submitted drivers to thoughts on course design and the controversial divot rule, this conversation offers a comprehensive look at the future of golf innovation and the intriguing intersection of technology and tradition.
Please visit the Krank Golf website and explore all the club options to find the right driver for you.
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Hey everybody, welcome back to a special episode of the Chasing Daylight podcast. It's been a while since we've had a one-on-one interview and I was excited when the folks at Crank reached out and said hey, we'd like to have our guy, Lance Reeder, come on. So, Lance, welcome to the show, Thank you. Thank you, it's going to be fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah so Crank Golf has been around for a while. A lot of people know the name from Long Drive and that's where your guys' foundation is from Going through a little bit of changes and kind of going away from Long Drive and rebranding, I guess you could say, the ideology behind Crank Golf. So why don't you tell everybody first off how you got started with Crank and what's going on with the company?
Speaker 2:First off, how you got started with Crank and what's going on with the company. Well, I mean we started around 2002. I was a professional long drive golfer. You know, I ran, I owned health clubs. It was, I think, when I got involved with long drive in general. I think it was my first midlife and I wanted to just have a little bit of fun. And I reached out and found a long drive guy and I hit the ball a long way. But every long driver that comes out to compete is usually the longest guy in their group. But they kind of come out to see if they're really that long. And so I got involved in the sport of long drive and I started winning and I was pretty good I mean I consider myself one of the top guys at the time and, um, little by little, uh, it became a huge addiction. I mean, people that are involved in long drive really get addicted to it and, um, the adrenaline's crazy.
Speaker 2:The biggest problem that we had was that all the drivers broke, they broke and they broke. So you know, the shafts broke, the heads broke, but the beginning of long drive it was the long drive was really the first golf related competition that went to the bigger heads that moved into the 450cc stuff, going into the cup facing or the, the beta titaniums and to go bigger. You had to go with better material. But the material and the heads that they were making were breaking so much that I was like, um, we can't manage this because you're breaking a head. You're breaking one or two heads every time you practice. And so the companies that were out then were smaller companies that nobody really knew about, like Alpha, bing, smt, zyder, some of these incredible companies that came out with some of the most high performance heads. They were far and above Callaway, tatum and Titus and Ping at the time, because those companies hadn't gone into that 400, 430, 450cc range. And so I knew that we were breaking a lot of heads and I thought you know, if these smaller companies can make heads, why don't I try to do it? It was just an interesting thing.
Speaker 2:I met a guy that, just like my brother today in Malaysia, who knew a contact with some factories in China, and I felt like it was just going to be a fun experiment that we can go out and try to do some stuff and and try to make a driver head that didn't break. And we came out the El Diablo driver and it didn't break. It was. It was incredibly durable, and we implemented some of the thoughts. It was just, I'm not an engineer, but I I'm smart enough to know that when something's breaking on a weld, you probably should make the weld a little stronger and the body rigidity of some of the stuff that we worked on, and the cool part was the factory that I really have been.
Speaker 2:They're like family to me now over 20 years that they let me come in and work and they let me learn years that they let me come in and work and they let me learn. And so we came up with a design that had some unique features like cup facing, dual welding, using certain types of beta titanium, creating body rigidity, all the things more bulge and roll, which is which is where the company that really pushed the bulge and roll curve, which really helps you hit a ball straighter, and also it helped with durability, and so when we made that driver, it won five world championships and by making it so it didn't break, we actually made it hit better. It was crazy, and so the spin rates and the directional control we put in place were really, really good, and so, um, that was the beginning of crank, and from that point on we said look okay, there's 200 long drivers in the whole world. We're not going to make any money doing this selling to those guys, because they want everything free to begin with yeah and so.
Speaker 2:So we made a playing driver at the time of the el diablo, so we made the the four, five, six degree that we use in the world of long drive golf. But we also made a seven, five, nine, ten, five, twelve in the el diablo that we used regular golf. And so we we have always sold regular playing drivers on top of the fact that we're selling long drive clubs. And so one thing led to the next, to the next, and now our current driver is our 18th version driver that we've created over the last 22 years. And so long drive's fun. We've won 36 World Long Drive Championships. We dominate that sport.
Speaker 2:We're not as involved in it now because during covid uh, you know, golf channel quit and sold it and it's a complicated sport. There's not that many people doing it and it's really hard to run and, um, it's hard to find 500 yards of flat grass that don't have help cars driving by, you know, and so, but I love long drive. At COVID we really, we really made a concerted effort when long drive pretty much died to to approach the, the world of golf, more effectively, and that's really when we really changed into the multiple face thickness which is really the world we live in today. Yeah, I remember.
Speaker 1:I was. I was working at Las Vegas national course here in town and they had the Remax long drive before before the las vegas invitational and it was on the, the first hole, which is long par five, and that was like my first experience seeing long drivers and seeing guys with, you know, 46 inch, 47 inch long drivers just beating the crap out of the ball. And it was. I was impressed. That was the, the, the, the Zubek Cause, that was his name. Yeah, that was his, that was his era. And then then you guys have, or not you guys? But then long drive they. They went out to Paiute and teed it off in the desert and hit to the range. They went out to the speedway and were in the stands hitting to the grass infield, go out to. They got to Mesquite and hit from one soccer field to the other soccer field. So I mean it's entertaining to watch, but you're right, it's not the easiest event to put on as far as spectators go.
Speaker 2:It's really hard for spectators to see the ball fly. It's really hard to produce a ball that's flying at 220 miles an hour and going 450 yards. I mean, it's a really difficult sport and there's just so few people in the world that can actually bring it at that speed that it's really limited and it's really not golf. They use drivers, but you know, in the game of golf there's far more through the game than just your driver. And, um, I think that's the hardest part.
Speaker 2:I really believed that when I first started crank that if I could go out and win two or three or four world championships, I could prove that my driver's the best in the world and that it hits further and straighter. And who wouldn't believe me? I mean, we're not just dealing with the Jason Zubex and the Tim Burks and the Justin James is the top guys and the fastest guys. We're also dealing with the 50s, 55, 60s, 65, 70 year old guys and girls. And when you're winning those age brackets, there should be more relevance to saying, hey, you know what these drivers are really special If they hit straight and long, why can't you use them in golf? And they were. You know, we were always conforming on usj, but not a lot of people knew that and not a lot of people look at long drive as a golf.
Speaker 2:I often wonder. I said, you know these guys are hitting drivers, not hockey sticks, right, but but you know, and and and I think that the thing that's remarkable with crank is that we've won all these world championships and it. You know I'm not, I'm not sitting in my yacht in the Caribbean, um, it means that, no, you're not, no, I'm not. I'm like I accomplished every goal but that one, but um, but in general, it's like you know, to, to. To get regular golfers to understand the value of our driver, they have to be able to respect the fact that it's used in the game of golf and you know, getting Bryson to shamble like we did, which is, you know, just crazy, but you know, getting him to prove that our drivers are really, really special has helped us a lot and I think we've come a long way in 22 years. It takes that long, apparently, when you have the majors that have so much power and money.
Speaker 1:All right, we'll get into Bryson in a few. But where did the name come from? What made you go with Crank so I?
Speaker 2:think at the beginning my gosh, it's just so crazy. I was hitting another brand. I mean in 2004, I set the world record of 526 yards with another brand and Crank wasn't around. But again the drivers broke, broke, broke right. So I started selling those, doing charity golf tournaments, and so then I thought, well, I probably should make one of these, and so I went to the company that I was making them with. I said, hey, do you mind if we just relabel it and change the metal on the face? I've been doing a little research. And they said yes. And then I said okay, I got to pick a name. So I was going to go with Amp Golf or Crank Golf, and Amp golf was taken and crank golf Wasn't.
Speaker 1:That's how I did it, simple simple I like the, I like the, the. The KR has been, you know, you can, it's, it's. I mean, I have one of your old drivers here and that's six the it's. You know the it's KG is on there. It's, it's, it's funny.
Speaker 2:It's good. Yeah, it's, it's been. You know, the truth is it's been a ride and we enjoy it and we continue to go and, you know, make the top product All right.
Speaker 1:So let's get into why it's different. It's, you know, callaway, taylormade, all the, all the ping, all the big brands. They have their way of putting their clubs together you chose a different route um and and we talked about this in our pre-interview uh, which is very interesting to me. Uh, what? What is different that you guys do that the other manufacturers aren't doing, to why your stuff does not break?
Speaker 2:I mean, when your number one purpose of making a driver is to make one that doesn't break that guy's swinging 150 miles an hour, you really have to look at what that is. What kind of manufacturing style would even allow that? Because, think about it, callaway, tatum and Titus and Ping and Cobra cobra and everybody no one ever really tested in that 150 swing speed range. We but that was all that was. Our only purpose was to make one that didn't break in the 150 swing speed range, and so we knew that your cut face forging staying 100, titanium, um, you know, using certain metals, uh, certain uh welding techniques, um, creating more body rigidity so that the body didn't expand and pop off the crown when it's carbon, you know all these type of things. Um, I mean, remember, this was very organic to begin with. I mean nobody knew what they were doing, and so I basically went in and said, okay, I believe this, this, this and this. And then my factory came in and said, well, I think we can try this, we can try that. And so basically what we learned was, if you go cup face forging which means you're cupping the face right, that allows for the weld to not be on the face and then if you create more bulge and roll more curvature in the face, it gives more durability. If you use the right type of I mean the beta titanium's we're using right now, it's like our seventh different one is flat out unbelievable. And then when you heat, treat it the way we do into super hard rock will be the curvature gives durability. The dual welding gives the durability. The beta titanium's that have the structure that's needed, especially when, when, when you've hit it a lot, that it doesn't just snap face and then you create. You create all the rigid, you create the, the body rigidity, like we do with all the louvering, with all the raised center section, the bottom section, all of this stuff creates.
Speaker 2:When a ball hits the face of a crank driver, that body does not expand. We expand 20% of every other driver. So what happens when the ball hits the face of a carbon body? It just expands okay. That's why I think halloween created jailbreak, because they didn't want the expansion. But we don't have expansion, okay, but now they're 360 carbon body that expands a lot.
Speaker 2:So I don't know what jailbreak's for, but the point is this that we're fully cut-faced, we're able to weld. Our weld is up on the crown all the way around the tune. Underneath there is no weld on the face like you see with the majors they have an insert piece. So there's like 12 reasons why I think our drivers are super special. But the main ones are cup facing, beta titanium, dual heat, treating body rigidity and creating and bulge and roll your balance points. I mean even like something as simple as our dual weight weight ports here. Those significantly reduce the curve of the ball because it reduces the angular spin of the ball. So when you've been doing it 22 years and you've been, you've been testing in the most severe kyle berkshire world, you learn a lot, yeah, and so we create, we, we sell two clubs, we sell our driver, our drivers and our fairwoods um, and we are launching a new mini driver which I haven't even talked about anybody.
Speaker 1:But oh, it's popular. Many drivers are popular right now this is a very cool.
Speaker 2:It's 11 and a half degrees and it's built exactly like our drivers. And then, of course, our fairwoods, which are super special because they're all cut, faced with miraging steel. They're super thin faced and this happens to be we just launched our two wood, so we make all the different lofts and different fairwoods.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's something I don't think a lot of people I wasn't even aware. I thought you guys were specifically long drivers and and that's what you sell. So when I first started chatting with you I was like Holy crap, I had no idea. So I want to, I want to bring up the website here real quick and show people, cause they can go on and look at the website and see I mean, there's first off, there's a ton of information on this website, but right here, 3wd+ 3WD, 5wd, 7wd, 9wd, 11wd, 13wd, 15wd that's not just drivers, that's not normal.
Speaker 1:That's not normal. But then you also you know the drivers you have. You know a variety of drivers as well, so let's get into the drivers. What are the different heads that you sell and the unique characteristics of them?
Speaker 2:Okay so, I love golf and I love talking golf. I love talking golf, I love talking drivers, I love talking equipment and you know there's just so many opinions of what makes something work or not work. It's just really the craziest sport in the world because it's the toughest sport in the world. So we, we specialize. We specialize in drivers and it allows us to build fairways and mini drivers because of the technology is very, very similar. But what we've noticed over the years is and this is really the big switch for Crank about eight years ago was to say, hey, why are older golfers losing so much distance? Older golfers losing so much distance, and I mean honestly, it'd be crazy like in five years a guy's gonna do 70, 80 yards of their drive and nobody really knew why. And I didn't really know why. And and because I always made a long drive version and a playing version. The long drive version had a little more bulge and roll for for stability and durability. It had a little bit thicker face to roll for stability and durability. It had a little bit thicker face because they're swinging at 150 miles an hour. And then my playing version had a little less curve in the face but way more curve than everybody else, and then a little bit thinner face because you didn't need the durability, but both were conforming because they both passed the rules by the USGA. They just happened to pass the rules by the USGA, they just happen to.
Speaker 2:Well, the problem was that to stay conforming, to stay like the 0.83 core or the 257 CT, if you know what that means, what happens was that once you get under that 110 mile an hour swing speed, you start to lose the trampoline effect of the face of that driver quickly. So when guys turn 40, 45, 50, depends on their health or their speed they slowly start to swing down to that 105, 100, 95, 90, 85. Once you start losing that, you lose the one thing that's called the extra credit, extra bonus, and that's trampoline effect, the spring of the face of a driver. Think about it the face of a driver has the potential, when the ball hits the face, for it to go in and spring off.
Speaker 2:Now, when we had persimmon woods there was no trampoline effect. Right, right, the block of wood. But with titanium you have the potential of that. But the problem is, if you're conforming, you start significantly losing that spring effect at about 105 mile an hour swing speed. So when you're 100, 90, 87, my wife swings 62 miles an hour. How much spring effect does she get off a normal driver?
Speaker 1:zero, zero right which is unfair to her so her 147 yard drives aren't as fun.
Speaker 2:But if I give her the same spring effect value that john rom enjoys or anyone else that swings 115 to 120 right that 0.83 core, then she hits it 30 yards longer. So she's hitting it 27, 175, 180, 185 instead of 150. And that's more fun for her and it's also more fair. And so we decided to make three different face thicknesses. So we make a conforming driver that is on the USGA approved list, which is the Fire Pro, and then we make a Fire X. That's a little bit thinner but it's really rated for people that swing 105 to 80. And then we make a fire double X. That's really thin faced, that's under 80 mile an hour swing speed. So we make three drivers the pro, the X and the double X and you can hit whichever one you want based on your swing speed. So if you're a super fast swing speed and you hit a really thin face, you'll ruin the driver, so don't buy it yeah, that that was going to be my next question.
Speaker 1:What happens when a high swing speed player swings a thin face like that?
Speaker 2:they hit it 30 to 40 yards shorter and they ruin it, so they waste their money good to know don't waste your money so people, people say well, what you're just trying to make the longest guys hit further.
Speaker 2:Actually, there is no material known to man that can do that. Our pro driver, being conforming, is, in my opinion, the longest hitting driver in the world. It's the most durable at the swing speeds that. Hit it. I still swing about 130, which is quite high. Hit it. I still swing about 130, which is quite high. And I know for a fact that if I hit the x, the middle face thickness one, I hit that 30 yards shorter than the pro. So it doesn't, really it doesn't because the material just can't handle it so why?
Speaker 1:why is the usga not willing to conform? Because that would be what I would think that you know if, if you make a thin face conforming, then the, the guys that swing it hard, are going to take this, this driver, and hit it further. But you're saying that that's not the case.
Speaker 2:They don't know. That's very well known to man that can do that so what?
Speaker 1:why? What's preventing them from? Because it sounds like it would make golf more enjoyable for the you know, know, 98% of the golfing world, compared to the 2% of the elite guys. If the higher swing speed players aren't getting a benefit out of it, why is the USGA so anti a thinner face?
Speaker 2:I think it's really. I think there's a few reasons I've asked this question. I mean, think about it. We've for us to have 36 World Long Drive Championships and submitted so many drivers and being on their radar that our number one goal is to hit the ball longer. We're on their radar period. So I've talked with them many, many times about it.
Speaker 2:It's complicated because the advantages that we have doing cut-face forging, because it's all hand-done and it's super specialized beta titanium and I could sit here for hours and talk about it, but the fact is the majors don't ever build what I build. They can't because they need 2 million of them. Yeah, no one's building 2 million crank heads. No one's building 2 million crank heads. One of the reasons I think that they've never really evaluated buying us because we build our heads so different than what they do. They pour cast molds, they have an insert face that's not even beta titanium and now they're doing 360 bodies that are carbon and you got Tatermade carbon lining the face of a driver that the backing of its titanium. Well, clearly the age of titanium is not over if you're still using titanium in the back of the face yeah you know, it's not like it's not a secret they had massive breakage issues.
Speaker 2:So the the fact is there, there's, there's so much more to the situation that we do as far as making our drivers. I mean being willing to hand cut face and welding everything by hand is a completely different game plan. I mean, to build 100,000 of crank drivers is is really really crazy amount of work.
Speaker 1:So Do you think you guys are, are like singled out and jaded, like we? We don't, we don't want to conform this, because then we're going to lose sales and let's address the conformity thing with the USG.
Speaker 2:I kind of got away from it. The conformity thing with the USG, I kind of got away from it. There's no way in the world the majors want to deal with multiple face thickness the breakage issues that exist already are significant To go into a thinner face. Think about it the face of a pro driver the fire pro driver is 2.7 millimeters. That is significantly thinner than any major. We're talking 3.8 to 4 millimeter thick faces. We're 2.7. We're both conforming.
Speaker 2:How do we pull that off? We pull that off because we have more curve in the face. Our metal's significantly harder and we're cup facing, so we have more perimeter support period. And we're cup facing, so we have more perimeter support period. Our row conforming driver loads better at slower swing speeds than does any driver in the world and it absolutely loads better at faster swing speeds with more durability. But if I take that same, that same manufacturing style, and I thin the face from 2.7 to 1.9, which is the X and give it to somebody that swings slower, they get the same spring effect that the faster swing speeds get. They don't get more, they get the same And83 now the the only way that you can have that many face thicknesses is to have the type of construction method that we have with the metal we have and they are never going to do that yeah too,
Speaker 2:much work, too much work, and it's just you can't mass produce it as they need. Think about it. I mean, how many drivers a year does callaway sell worldwide what I mean? Come on, just a few, yeah, and you know, and it's not like any of these companies build bad drivers, it's just that their curve in the face is is too flat. They flatten out quicker. Their breakage is significant and they're telling you know, 82 year old women, that they're going to gain 20 yards. They're not. They're they're not getting faster, stronger and younger, they're getting older, weaker and slower. And we build, we're built the only driver that that really actually adds distance.
Speaker 1:The hot topic in the driving world starting last year was 10K, 10k, 10k. Everybody's going 10K with the MOI. So with how rigid your face is and it doesn't flex, is MOI even something you worry about, or do you know that you're going to have the durability, so it's nothing that even needs to be?
Speaker 2:pondered. I don't really worry about it. What I worry about is two things, three things. I worry about control. How straight is this driver? Okay, I also worry about speed, and I also worry about speed and I also worry about durability. And when I can hand somebody a driver, that is probably the great and and we can get into bryson later too.
Speaker 2:But think about what really happened probably the greatest striker of an at speed in the history of professional golf and he he literally takes off of a, takes a head off of a shaft, puts on our head and in 10 days, shoots 58, wins back-to-back tournaments after not winning for three years, wins the us open, leads the masters for two days, finishes second at the pga, his team wins the live championship. It completely revolutionized the way he played the game. In 12 months period. All he did was take a head off and put another head on. It's crazy. It's crazy, and so nobody can say anything other than the fact that he hits it straighter, with more control. I believe he hits it further, but that doesn't even matter. We don't even talk about distance with Bryson, because the only thing that really matters is he's going to hit it three, 30, 40, 50, 60 all day long.
Speaker 2:That's just kind of what he does, but is it going to be playable? Is he going to be able to control it? And so the the bulge and roll all the things that we've done for 22 years. That is what has created that opportunity for him. And we do make unique clubs and nobody else makes them like we do. Absolutely nobody does. And so, yeah, are we at the pariah? Yeah, we're never going to compete with Calhoun, tatum, tattles or Ping or Cobra or PXG when it comes to advertising dollars. But when you can hand somebody a driver and it completely changes the trajectory of their entire career, how do you argue with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's impressive, all right, so I I want to ask you this and share in the driver's face. I, I am under the belief that golf has changed from what's not under the belief. I believe that the driver used to be the hardest club in the bag to hit and now it's the easiest. You, you had like going back to the Persimmons, and even the small, small driver heads back. You know, in the in the eighties, where you were required to hit the center of the face in order to hit a good golf shot. Now we have, like I said, with the MOI and the drivers and super forgiving. You know Scotty Shelfers on TV hitting a 300 yard drive off the toe. Um, I, I think that is one of the things that is hurting golf. Is these guys just getting up there wildly throwing? I mean, don't get me wrong, they are very talented. You know you don't become an elite professional golfer because you're not talented, but they're the.
Speaker 1:The risk off the t it's, it's not. It's not affecting these guys, they just get up there, they bomb it down there because those drivers are so easy to hit. Now is am I right with that and thinking that I mean I?
Speaker 2:don't think you're right at all. Matter of fact, are they easier to hit? But think about this. I mean I I traveled a lot last year. I went to most of all the events with bryson. I'm watching every one of these guys ripping balls into houses. Come on, they struggle. Cam smith, one of the greatest golfers of all time, struggled with his driver so bad last year.
Speaker 2:I just watched, watched it say, oh my gosh, this guy be winning every freaking tournament if he could a fairway. So to say that everyone's hitting. I've watched John Rom balls into freaking no man's land. I'm like, oh my God, my driver doesn't even curve that much to do that. I know I'm not trying to be super controversial, but I'm saying the flat of the face, the more the curve, and that's just the way that it works. You got to have more bowls and roll to control these absolute. When the ball starts curving, it doesn't stop curving if you're having a flat face. And that's really why Bryson loves what we do and that's why why, even like he's trying to make his own driver now with LA golf that they're trying to put into play everything that crank is. That's the absolute truth. So and so if you you say that everybody's hitting so much easier, the driver is so much straighter. I don't know that. I see that.
Speaker 1:Well, I wouldn't say straighter, I would say more forgiving.
Speaker 2:Straighter is forgiving, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Well, no, I'm talking like if a toe strike or a heel strike would normally send it 30 yards off the fairway and now it's only sending it 10, because it's more forgiving these guys when they get up there and they have that shot, because it's more forgiving.
Speaker 1:These guys, when they get up there and they have that shot, I don't think the pure ball striker is being rewarded, because now you have guys that maybe don't have that talent of scoring up the face and hitting it in the center every time are getting an advantage over those pure ball strikers, and I would like to see that aspect of the game get come, come, dialed back a little bit. Everybody is going nuts about distance and oh, let's make the masters 8,000 yards and and. But you, I love seeing the short courses, like Harbor town, where you know it's, it's an accurate tee shot is required to get around that golf course. And uh, you know you can't just go go blast at three, 30 and and hope to get, you know, put up a good score.
Speaker 2:It's just I don't know it's, it's a different era. It's a different era but I don't think it's as dramatic as what people think. I mean I think there's there's great risk reward. What people think I mean I think there's great risk-reward to distance hitting. I know when we were in Mayakoba with Liv last year. I mean you talk about anxiety. You hit a ball anywhere, right, it's in the jungle Like these courses can control driver performance so easily. If you really want to control how far a person hits the ball, put in transitions, use the mower. There's so many different ways. I'm saying some of these courses are wide open. I mean like 35 under in hawaii, I mean recently. I mean really. I mean, yeah, you want to set up a wide open space that there's virtually no stress and there's no fear and just rip and go and go. You know kind of thing you're going to get.
Speaker 2:But I, I'm just not a big proponent of changing the ball. I'm not a big proponent, I don't believe that there's any spring effect value known to man that should, that should limit the spring effect of a driver face. Limit the spring effect of a driver face. Um, I'm just. I believe that you should use the mower, your architecture, because there's some of these short courses are magical, some of the long courses are brutal. You know what playing all of them, we don't want the same guy winning every freaking tournament man, and they can control. They can control it by the mower and by the design and by the transitions and all the stuff that's going on. I'm just not a big let's. Let's play with the ball, that that gives them an advantage. But let's change the courses to make sure that it's fair across the board, based on skill set.
Speaker 1:That's it that's, I agree, 100. It's so ridiculous. How they can, you know, make a penalty shot, penalizing, and they choose not to?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I mean, I don't know. I think they need to fix the divot rule anyway.
Speaker 1:Oh, let me hear that.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, if your ball rolls in a divot, you should be able to place it, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:So I firmly agree with you, one hundred percent yeah.
Speaker 1:But we're not, we're not rolling dice yeah, I, I had somebody say this to me, okay. So you hit your ball in the middle of the fairway, lens in a divot. You're pissed off because you hit a great shot. Yeah, all right, and you're penalized, all right. So if you hit a ball right off, the course hits a tree, comes back to the middle of the fairway. Do you go over and put your ball back where the tree was right? No, you take. You take it. Hey, sometimes you get breaks, sometimes you don't, but I still think you know, fill your divots and and at least have the golf course be as close to what it was for you, for the next person. Yeah, I think it's a dumb rule.
Speaker 2:That's probably one of the very few roles I think they should change, but at the end of the day I don't have any say saying that, but I do. I do believe that there should be a hard look at the unfairness of of having slow swing speeds forced to hit thick face drivers.
Speaker 1:You know, and when, when we had our, our, our phone conversation last week, that is what really stuck out with me. I had never thought of it that way before that. You know somebody. You know I swing at 97 to 98 miles an hour. I was on the track man yesterday. That's where I'm at right now, pretty happy with that, which is good. But you know my friend Trey and my friend Dan, huge high swing guys. They swing it in the 120s and you know the fact that we play a similar head. You know design. They play a different model but similar head design. Yeah, they're getting a huge advantage because they can swing it faster. So that really like resonated with me. It's like wow, why is it that you know the high swing speed players are the only ones getting benefit from the face? It's, it's an interesting, it's a very interesting concept.
Speaker 2:Well, and you know, nobody really thinks about it, I didn't think about it, I never crossed my mind I'd cranked for 15 years and I literally woke up one day and said I make my long drive club a little thicker. And then my plane driver they're both conforming. I wonder what's going to happen if I made one a little thinner and had my friends swing 90 miles an hour, hit it, see if there's any real difference. That's literally how it all happened and I called my factory and I said hey, I want you to make this, I want you to make three different face thicknesses and I'm going to test them. So I brought in some of my buddies that are really good golfers that are swinging between 95 and 85 and we did just straight up comparison to a conforming and non-conforming. These guys were going calm and 30 yards and I'll be like, okay, well, what's their core? So if core, if core is established, which I believe is around 115 mile an hour swing speed I mean the cam test is 109. So if they're assuming they use the same ball, because we know balls deject, they they de same ball because we know balls degrade quickly. So, like we know in speed testing in the long term that if you really wanted to set a ball speed record, you had to do it within the first three hits, because after that you're losing one mile an hour. One mile an hour, the ball degrades, right. So are they using the same exact ball? And what ball are they using? Are they using a 110 compression ball? Are they using a 90? Are they firing always at 109, which they are? But what is core? So for you to get 0.83, let's assume that whatever a major manufacturer's driver that's on the conforming list is very close to core rating, even though the usj uses ct now, but it's a different subject.
Speaker 2:But let's say core 0.83. You have to swing in. In my, in my research, you have to swing at least 115 to get 0.83. Okay, so 0.83 at 115, that's great. What if you swing 100? What's your core? Certainly not 0.83, no, not even close, probably 0.73. So what if you swing 64 miles an hour? What's your core? 0.2, you can drop whalen. What if you swing 130? What's your core above 0.83? That's fact. That is absolutely a fact. So who are the only people hitting drivers above court? The guys that swing the fastest, the guys that need the the more amount of help they just need to hit straight.
Speaker 2:So. But then eventually the face will flatten, you know, whatever the case, and it'll break because they're swinging 130. That's why most really fast guys struggle with breaking drivers. But at the same time, that's core. So is it possible for us to say, okay, if you're swinging 115, you get .83 core. If you're swinging 100, you get .83 core. If you're swinging 65 miles an hour, you get .83 core? Why can't we just give everybody 0.83 core? That's fair right. We don't force 80-year-old women to hit an extra stiff shaft, but we force them to hit an extra stiff face.
Speaker 2:So we give them a senior lady flex shaft. Let's give them the proper face flex, the proper shaft flex, the proper shaft flex, the proper ball flex. Let's give it all to them. Let them go out and hit 170 yards and enjoy the game. Yeah, you know how many people hit our drivers and say I haven't hit 200 yards in a decade and I just did yesterday their solution is a bigger head that's lighter and more forgiving.
Speaker 2:Well, and I get. But you've got to have the spring effect and you can't go bigger than 450. No one's proven that above 450 has any value. But if you want to go there and get the proper face thickness, get the proper face flex, use the right shaft, the right face, the right ball and go enjoy the game. 99% of all golf is under 105 mile an hour swing speed and yet 100% of all golf, if they're hitting a normal head, is hitting a head rated for 115 swing speed. What that's crazy? That's crazy. Why do we do that? That's just so stupid. But you know, if the USGA wants to to, if the pga wants to have these rules, that's great. It applies to pga, but it doesn't apply to men's club no, not, not at all that's not a lead amateur, it's not a professional.
Speaker 2:So yeah, my opinion's different. I think that we should enjoy the game. I I think we're using drivers. I think if the guys swinging 115 plus are getting 0.83, everyone deserves it and it is completely unfair to stop that.
Speaker 1:Do you think the USGA will ever come around and realize that?
Speaker 2:I think they already realize it. The problem is, how do you convince Callaway to make three different face thicknesses when they're metals, poured metal? What a pain, oh my gosh. Can you imagine? Oh hey, we're going to make a 1.4 millimeter. I mean, how long, how long would they last? It's crazy. It gets super complicated. We were small enough that we can manage it, but we also do cup face forging. We don't pour metal and we don't use any carbon. We use a hundred percent titanium. I mean, think about it. Are you wanting to weld titanium pieces together or do you want to glue carbon together?
Speaker 1:One's significantly cheaper than the other.
Speaker 2:Who wants first of all, who wants to deal with titanium, even though it's the best in the world, and who really wants to weld when they can glue?
Speaker 1:So is anybody else doing what you're doing? Hmm, not to give them any we didn't create co-facing.
Speaker 2:We didn't create that, we perfected it. We didn't create bolts and roll, we increased it. You know, we're super careful with the type of beta titaniums we use in the face, because you can have some type of beta titaniums we use in the face, because you can have some really phenomenal beta titaniums, but once they get beat up and microfractured, a lot of them break. The ones we currently use are incredibly durable in its worn out state, like the people that have hit it 5,000 times. That's where things break With crank. It just continues to just be hot and it's not going to snap break in the face. So so I, I, I don't know of any company put it this way, no one has ever.
Speaker 2:When crank was fully committed to world long drive, no one ever made a driver like us, and a lot of people tried, but they made a couple big mistakes. They thought the face needed to be thinner. That made it hit worse. The more your face flattens, the the less straight it hits, and there's so many little things that I opted for a little less spring effect, a little more curvature and, in the end, at the fastest swing speeds, it paid dividends when they had to hit it under pressure at the fastest swing speeds it paid dividends when they had to hit it under pressure, Complicated, but fun All right.
Speaker 1:So this guy here so I'm currently playing the AI Smoke. Okay, if I throw a shaft, because this is a little long for me. What loft is that? Nine degrees.
Speaker 2:Nine degree head. How long is it? Nine degree head.
Speaker 1:It's an old Harrisonrison on here. Oh my gosh, that's so yeah, I think, I think it's 46 and a half. I'm not sure, but I'll measure it. But so if, if I, if I the shaft that I'm playing apparently I play an lagp shaft uh, if I were to throw that in this head, am, am I gonna see a difference in your opinion with this one, not your new one. I'm just curious. Well, that's a new one.
Speaker 2:It's 10 versions ago. I mean eight versions ago. I mean it's still beta titanium and it's still an incredible driver. That driver won multiple world long drives in multiple divisions, especially the older divisions. So I think you would hit it really, really well. But I think you have to. You have to be willing to compare apples to apples. If you're going to use a specific shaft in one, you have to use it in another, and I think it would probably be better for me just to send you our latest driver and then make your comparison.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm down for that you like that absolutely. I can do that.
Speaker 2:I I want to hit it straighter and further well, I um, yeah, I mean it's up to you, because you, you you're legitimately the fire x, the middle face thickness. Unless you only want to hit a driver on the conforming list, then you can hit the fire pro. They both perform incredibly well yeah, I would.
Speaker 1:I would have to have conforming because I I am the commissioner of a local league here in town that if my my guys found out I was playing a non-conforming driver are we non-conforming?
Speaker 2:let's, let's deal with that, are we? Not or are we non-submitted? What's the difference?
Speaker 2:oh yeah tell me, you know that only 50% of the drivers made around the world every year are ever submitted to the USGA. Yeah, I know that. Right, so USGA is not the IRS. Okay, they are very important but they help with rules and regulations and all the things that they've done in the RNA. But at the same time, with recreational golf, you can't say that our X and our double X is non-conforming because it's simply non-submitted. And you also have to take into consideration that the swing speeds that use them don't hit them past 0.83 core, so how can they be over core? So when we say they're high core, they're not really high core, they're really fair core. That's interesting. So, if you really I mean these are all his terminologies so if a person swinging 72 miles an hour hits our fire double X, 1.4 millimeter thin face, he does not benefit from more than 0.83 core and if the high swing speed player plays it, it's not gonna it doesn't respond.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so again, the only people that are actually hitting above 0.83 core are the ones that are hitting conforming drivers that swing above 120 one yeah of the whole whole craziness. Yeah, but at the same time we can talk about technology all day long, but it's still about the fun of the game. I promise you, when a person gets up and goes from 170 to 200, their game is a lot more fun oh, absolutely they're not a threat to the game, so let's go out have fun.
Speaker 2:So so we have two non-submitted drivers. We have two conforming drivers our fire ld, which is long drive version, and our fire pro.
Speaker 1:Is it? Is there a reason you haven't submitted?
Speaker 2:Of course, okay, what do you think?
Speaker 1:I know why. I just want to know if that's if you know and that's why you haven't.
Speaker 2:No, I could submit them so they could fail, so that I could say that they're non-conforming. But that's not the point.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't sell them to people that swing and that get the face to perform above 0.83 yeah, they're, they're not.
Speaker 1:Why do I want college?
Speaker 2:elite 15 mile an hour swing speed. What's the point of it? Matter of fact, when they do that? Let's say that I send the double x into the usg and they test it at 109 mile an hour canon test. It's just going to ruin the face. Yeah, what's the point? Why would I submit something so it could be ruined? It's not even sold to those people. No, it's. I mean it's complicated, but at the same time it's still fun, it's still cool. I mean it's still the game. Is the game? Even what arnold palmer said I don't care if you use a baseball bat. Go enjoy the game. True, you know. Use the equipment that is right for you. If the ball a lower compression balls are right for you, do that. If the shaft flex more flexible is right for you, do that. If the face flex is better for you, use it. Find the companies that are willing to actually take care of you and not force you to hit something that's going to hit significantly less and less fun.
Speaker 1:Anyway, do you guys? Do you guys hold demo days around the country, or how?
Speaker 2:how to? We're mainly online. We've been online for 22 years. We, you know we're. We're not a traditional. We're not going to go into the distribution. We're not going to go get in 50,000 stores like Callaway. We're not. You know we're. We're not a traditional. We're not going to go into the distribution. We're not going to go get in 50 000 stores like callaway we're not. You know they're on their fourth generation. I'm the first generation starter of this. So we, we prefer to be online. We have a great fitting tool online. Um, if you have any issues with it at all, we'll replace it for you for free. Um, it's really not that complicated to get fitted for a driver. It's really complicated to get fitted for irons. That's why we don't make them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I was going to say next. So you guys are strictly going to stick with fairway clubs drivers and fairway clubs.
Speaker 2:Drivers and fairways and many, but could we make irons? I think the number one reason I don't make irons is I don't think I can make them better. What exactly are you going to do to make a better iron than Strixon or Tatermade or, you know, the Zuno? What are you going to do? Is there any technology in any way, shape or form that's going to make that iron perform better? Because I can tell you that our performance, our manufacturing style of our drivers is absolutely better. That is a technology that I can absolutely make better. No one's going to do what I do because it's too much work and it's too difficult to make a million plus drivers, but when it comes to irons, I don't think I can make them better. Could I make them and sell a bunch of them? I could, but that's just not my passion. It's not my passion.
Speaker 1:All right, let's talk. Bryson, okay, yeah, so great. Like you said, like you, you prefaced it earlier. Amazing year for him. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:I mean he's. He's a blessing for us too.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I mean a lot of eyes on your product. I mean, one of the reasons we're talking to you right now is because the popularity of crank, because of Bryson. Why, why, why is he doing what he's doing in your opinion? Why is he going away from this and trying to? You've got a product that is proven.
Speaker 2:It's there for him well, he's still hitting it. I saw this video. I mean, yeah, I just sent him five new drivers. I mean, okay, good.
Speaker 2:But the truth is, I think it's important to know where we start and I, we, we have to give credit where credit's due. It's the only way it works. So when Mike Shy, his coach, called me and said, bryson wants to try your driver, and I said OK, we'll put him on the phone and let's talk, I mean we're not a beginner company. There has to be value in 36 World Long Drive Championship. It doesn't matter. We have developed a driver that no one in the world has ever developed because no one's ever tested in the environment that we were forced to. So, no matter what I don't really care what anybody thinks the fact that we pulled off what we pulled off over these years meant that we learned at least something Right. And so I said to him what do you? What's going on? He goes I can't quit the curve, I can't quit flattening faces, I can't quit breaking stuff. And you know, this is nothing new, everyone's watched his, his comments, right. And so I'm like, okay, well, here's the deal. We're going to send you this driver. I sent him a seven, five and a six and he called me and I overnighted it.
Speaker 2:The next night he called me and he says, okay, I got to have an answer for for what's going on. I said what's that? He goes. Why. Why does this driver curve 60% less than any driver I've ever tested? And he goes. I'm testing like I have data and I said it's because of these reasons. It's because of our bulls and rolls, because of our metal, it's because of our cup facing is because of our body rigidity, it's because of like 10 things that crew together makes that driver hit straighter and curve less and less, less flattening of the face and all the stuff that you want. And he said, okay, he goes. Okay, I love it, he goes.
Speaker 2:Uh, can you send me a fairway? I said, sure, they're built exactly the same way. They're not titanium, they're miraging steel, but they're. My fairways are super unique, they're super durable, super fast, super straight. And he, okay. So I sent him a three and five wood and he has the driver.
Speaker 2:Well, 10 days later he goes out and shoots 58. He took the head off and put a head on. That's all he did. And then he added the three and five wood which he hits a nine and a 12 degree, which is really not a three and five wood, but that's what he calls it and goes out and wins back-to-back Shoots 58, wins that tournament.
Speaker 2:The next week he wins again and then he goes out and, like I said, he really had a phenomenal year, with all the craziness. I mean even like the US Open. I mean he was number one strokes gained off the tee day one. Day two, 22. Number number 22 had a bad day, but still better than average. The next day he's number four strokes gained off the tee. And then, his final day, he decides to change the head 10 minutes before he's teeing off because he wanted a lower loft. Because that's how bson works If he gets something in his head, he just says I want to do this. And the real truth was when he changed he asked me for he goes what do you have in your bag? And I said you're hitting a driver, that you just were fourth strokes gained off the tee.
Speaker 1:What are you doing?
Speaker 2:You're leading the US Open by six strokes.
Speaker 1:What are you doing?
Speaker 2:But you know we're sitting there right. I said, well, I got five and a half because he's a six and like five and a quarter. The crazy thing is he put it on a shaft and he hit three balls Absolute newt. And he looked around, he goes I'm hitting this one and he walked to the tee box and couldn't hit a freaking fairway to save his life. It was too low, right, but he was still 12th strokes gained off the tee. Think about it as bad as he hit that driver, he was still ranked 12th strokes gained off the tee because he hits the ball so freaking far that even when it wasn't exactly in the fairway it was still usable and playable. And then, of course, he hits our three and five wood, which he even said himself he wouldn't have won the US Open without our three wood because he drove that par four with it. So there was our time, you know, and it's great.
Speaker 2:But I think it's important to understand that he said to me no contracts, no money, I'll hit it as long as I want to hit it. I want you to know that I plan on. I've always wanted to make my own equipment. I just didn't know how aggressive he was going to be on that. It's really hard to build the type of driver that we have. So he's in the process of building this driver with LA Golf and it's their first try at building a driver. I think it's, you know, whatever. It's really unfortunate. I think it would have been really cool to be able to work together, but he's a partner with them, so but it wasn't like he wasn't clear from the beginning. So for me, um, I know for a fact he's hitting my driver three and five wood today in india. Um, and they're working on whatever they can do and, you know, maybe someday we'll be able to work together.
Speaker 1:Um, we'll see so him playing and winning the us open? How many other tour professionals have come to you and asked to try it?
Speaker 2:at least it's a very complicated question Quite a few. But getting them to actually hit your driver and walk from a major when they've got their diesel truck sitting out there ready to take care of you and they've got a big check waiting there ready to take care of you and they've got a big check waiting you have to really want to win. And let's face it, bryson's made a lot of money and by winning, absolutely and you know what Every aspect of his career is better because he's winning, including his YouTube videos, including his social media, including everything. I mean, how how much success and how much attention are you going to get if you're always losing?
Speaker 2:Not very much, so winning is so winning is the key and we've had quite a few people hit our drivers and a lot of people told me they were going to hit them in the end sign a contract with a major that that includes their driver. So I don't think any of the majors want crank around in in on the pga tour and stuff like that sorry, is your focus going forward now?
Speaker 1:uh, more recreational golfers Are you? Are you focused on tour professionals? Where?
Speaker 2:where do you see you guys pushing your name the most? I would love to get more professional golfers to actually hit us, but they have to be able to work within the parameters that we can. We can do. I mean, there's there's so many professional golfers out there, but how many amateur golfers can really benefit from our technology? And they do. We sell a lot of drivers. We've been around a long time and we've sold many, many, many drivers, but we're the only company willing to push the boundaries to actually give them an advantage and more enjoyment in the game, making everything fair when it comes to spring effect. I can tell you that that it's it's the most important thing that we do is to is to really push into the mass golf population. 99 of golfers swing under 105. Let's not forget that. That means 99 of golfers plus are hitting a driver face that's not rated for what they need.
Speaker 2:Let's change that right, let's change that. I think we're trying and I think, when it comes to like Bryson, I hope someday that we can actually work together. And I think, who knows? I mean, if they pull off the greatest driver in the world because it's going to have to be to be crank, and if it was that great, he'd probably already be hitting it, um, but I don't want the conflict. You know, I'm grateful for what he's done, I'm grateful for the fact that he, that he worked with us, and but he's also grateful for us. It's a win-win situation and it would be cool if we could work together going forward. But he's got his contracts and he's got his ownerships and he's got his goals and we'll see where it all goes in the end. If not, it's just been an incredible ride and we're way better off because of it.
Speaker 1:Do you have the vault, like Ping does with all their championship putters, you get your gold. Uh. World champion, uh crank closet no, but I do.
Speaker 2:I do have, I do have, I do have his us open two drivers. I have the driver he used for the first three days and I have the driver he used on sunday. Awesome, so that's pretty cool that.
Speaker 1:That is very cool, very cool, let me say this.
Speaker 2:He's also a really nice guy and he has really good intentions, you know, and so I think it's business is business and it's tough sometimes, um, but I do believe it's going to be really hard for him or anyone else to actually replace the level of performance that our drivers bring to the table.
Speaker 1:yeah, I, I admit he, he is a great chat. I, when the live event was here in vegas, we had media passes and I chatted him up walking between a couple t-boxes and he, he's engaging, he chats with you. Of course I I'm I'm very anti. Grow the game. I think the game is like huge, it doesn't need to grow anymore. Why is that it's because, uh, tea times in Vegas. Well, you probably are dealing with this down in Arizona too uh tea times are.
Speaker 1:You know, a course that I used to pay 45 dollars at is now 110. There's no tee times available. Stop growing the game.
Speaker 2:That's great. I think about the same thing around here. It's like in the summer you used to get on anywhere. It's 115 degrees out. Yeah, you're in Vegas and they're still full, like I'm like, oh my gosh, it's crazy.
Speaker 1:We used to have, we used to my local course. It's Revere it course, it's reverence. Right down the street from me there used to be a 19 after three. It was 19 after three o'clock because it's a retirement community that the course is built around, the. The seniors are not coming out after 10 o'clock because it's, like you said, 115 degrees. So for 19 bucks I would get off work, I'd show up at 4 30, I'd play 18 holes in an hour and a half to two hours. For 19. It was fantastic. That fantastic. That right now is $75. That's right. And it's full. It's full. So stop growing the game, bryson. Stop it. But I respect him. He's a great conversationist. Anytime that we've had any banter regarding him on the show or on our Instagram page, he always responds. So I love him for that. Our Instagram page he always responds.
Speaker 2:So it's I love him. I love him for that. I think he's such a great ambassador for the game. You know he brings fun to the game. I mean, I think him going to live really opened up the opportunity for him to get the kind of promotion him winning and winning and doing so much better than he did in the previous three years helped him a ton. So he's a great ambassador. I think that he really is putting his money where his mouth is on some of the projects that he's involved in right now. Absolutely Hopefully we can all stay close and work together All right, I'm going to throw the website up on here.
Speaker 1:It's crankgolfcom. The'm gonna throw the the website up on here. It's crank golf dot com. Uh, the drivers, I got the website up here. They sell for 549. Uh, that includes the shaft, correct?
Speaker 2:it is, and I mean we're always going to have some type of discount. We have 150 off, so they're 399 right now. That's a great price for this driver, absolutely, and 150 off the fairwoods and then we'll we'll launch the mini driver pretty soon. It's really interesting. It's fully cup-faced titanium micro driver and it's fully adjustable Awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, lance, thank you so much for joining us, thanks for being the first interview for us, for 2025. And I'll have all the links to everything in the show notes below and this will go out on our regular podcast platform as well as YouTube. So thank you so much for your time and I can't wait to see what you guys do next.
Speaker 2:Okay, thanks brother, thank you you.
