328: From Pro Golfer to Master Craftsman: Dave Frisch's Putter Revolution

What makes the perfect putter? It's a question that has fueled endless debates among golfers, but few have explored it with the depth of knowledge and hands-on expertise as Dave Frisch of Goodwood Golf Company. Transforming from golf professional to self-taught CAD designer and master putter craftsman, Dave brings remarkable insights into both the artistic and scientific elements of putter creation.

This episode peels back the curtain on the custom putter industry, revealing how these precision instruments are designed, manufactured, and personalized. Dave walks us through his journey of teaching himself computer-aided design and machining, explaining how he transforms blocks of carbon steel and stainless into heirloom-quality putters that perform as beautifully as they look.

The conversation takes a fascinating turn as Dave shares findings from his ongoing research comparing different putter designs. Using sophisticated tracking technology, he's challenging some of the boldest marketing claims in the industry, particularly those surrounding "zero-torque" putters. His data suggests what many experienced players intuitively know—there's no universal solution in putting, and the best putter is one that complements your natural stroke pattern.

Beyond technical details, we explore what makes custom putters so special: personalization. From custom stamping that commemorates meaningful dates or initials to precise specifications tailored to individual stroke characteristics, these aren't just clubs—they're personal instruments that often become treasured possessions passed through generations.

Whether you're fascinated by the craftsmanship behind golf equipment, considering investing in a custom putter, or simply love geeking out about golf technology, this conversation offers valuable insights that might forever change how you think about the most personal club in your bag. Check out Goodwood Golf online to see Dave's stunning creations and learn more about his approach to putter craftsmanship.

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Transcript

Meet Dave Frisch of Goodwood Golf

Speaker 1 0:26

What is up everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Chasing Daylight Podcast. We had so much fun last time. We had a guest on live. We decided what the hell, let's do it again. This time we're bringing in Dave. Is it Frisch? Is that how you say your? Last name yeah correct From Goodwood Golf Company. Welcome to the show, sir.

Speaker 3 0:49

Thank you, that's pretty good because this guy does not pronounce anything correctly the first time.

Speaker 1 0:56

Well done.

Speaker 2 0:57

He's in the 1% with my last name.

Speaker 1 1:00

Have you seen my last name? Good Lord, I get everything you can imagine.

Speaker 3 1:07

Out of curiosity, how would you pronounce Matt's last name?

Speaker 2 1:12

We've heard a lot of things.

Speaker 3 1:13

I'm curious.

Speaker 2 1:15

Wait, how do you spell it again?

Speaker 1 1:18

It's W the word angry.

Speaker 3 1:20

C-H-T. It's like Wayne Kreicht, that's how you would say it. How would you say it, wainwright really good, yeah, it's not bad. Not bad, that's really good. We had a lady. How you say it? You say, yeah, we got that we got that one time at the golf course.

Speaker 1 1:39

Like the course I play, all the time the starter yells out wang and yacht yeah and uh yeah, so that's kind of one of my running nicknames. Uh, thanks for so much for coming on. It is it's late for you.

Speaker 2 1:52

It's it's after hours uh, nothing's open right now right, you.

Speaker 1 1:58

You don't live in a 24-hour town, so nothing's open right now. It's dark, it's quiet, everyone's asleep, uh, so thank you so much for for doing this, you know we uh we did, uh, uh, not really a collab, but you did some putters for us and, um, dan absolutely loves his. I absolutely love him. I fucked up and and didn't cut Joe's BGT shaft to the right length, so when he got it it came out to like F2. It was stupid, stupid heavy, but I have.

Speaker 3 2:34

He's telling these guys it was heavy and they're like what are you talking about?

Speaker 1 2:37

I found a KBS 120 cutter shaft and a good grip and it's swing weight right now. It's good. I was on staycation so I couldn't get it to him for him to play with this weekend, but it's ready for him.

Speaker 3 2:51

So, he's going to drive to Havasu, I'll get it. Oh my God.

Speaker 1 2:57

He lives 20 minutes from me. It's not as bad as he makes it sound, so I put it out there to everybody on instagram if anybody had any questions. We did get one question from ag. Um, our interactions on instagram aren't exactly where they could be right now, but, uh, he wanted to know what it was that got you started to you know, with your own brand. What made you want to start your own company? So I think we can answer that question and a bunch of others If you just kind of give us the spiel on what made you start Goodwood.

Speaker 2 3:33

Went to about a semester of community college because I didn't know what I wanted to do but I like playing golf too much in the meantime, so I stopped going to school, got pretty good. Um was working at a golf course, passed my PAT, passed the written test, ended up getting a job as a system pro and um just kind of self-taught there and did that for about eight years. Um, it was fun in the beginning but a lot of hours, not a lot of pay. So got out of that business, of that business and um. But while I was doing that, um, one of my favorite things was to go to local golf galaxy and they always had a used bin where you could find some old wedges or old. Occasionally you find it old cameron putter or ping or something like that and I just like refinishing them. You know you could get them out of the used bin for 10, 15 bucks and then go trade them back in for 50 bucks after I spent 20 minutes fixing it up. So just something fun to do, um.

Speaker 2 4:30

But I was always really into short game stuff, putters and everything like that and really wanted a double. Oh, nine would have been a terrible financial decision, you know at the time to to buy one of those. So, um, just kind of taught myself CAD and I was always pretty artistic, so I picked that up quick and then outsourced. I found a place that would make 10 heads, so 10 heads was still cheaper than buying one of those and then just pre-sold a few of them. Started off as just a hobby, never envisioned it being something that I do full time. But first model kind of sucked, then the next one was a little bit better, and then here I am now with with a bunch of different models. So and fortunately actually right around uh, covet time, everybody you know picked up golf, started doing things outside. That's actually when I started doing this full time, which was crazy.

Speaker 1 5:23

So, yeah, yeah how is covid with the golf courses out there? Because what what happened out here is is you know, we have there's three million people in the valley and it seems like half of them didn't play golf and now they all do the. We have no t times. Rates are through the roof. It's impossible to book. Is that happening out there as well?

Speaker 2 5:49

That's, that's pretty much how it is now still, and um, I don't know what the country clubs are like out there, but I mean, it is nothing for your run of the mill country club to have a waiting list and a 10 grand initiation fee, Like it's just it's impossible to get into them.

Speaker 4 6:06

So you know, and like I said those, are run-of-the-mill ones.

Speaker 2 6:10

Those are on the lower end, I mean. You know, some of the other ones obviously are.

Speaker 3 6:14

They've always been expensive, but yeah where are you located at uh specifically? Like I am, area of maryland right right on the maryland pennsylvania line, so basically dead between york, pennsylvania, and baltimore city okay, so I have family just like a little bit south of baltimore and I was there last year and I have a buddy in wilmington. I went to play bitterman. I don't know if these guys know that I went to go play bitterman, but I went up there.

Speaker 2 6:43

But never played it, but I've heard of it it's sick.

Speaker 3 6:46

But you know, I, luckily I had a friend there and I was trying to look for courses to play there's, there's a lot of amazing golf up there. You know, like, and uh, if you're familiar with whatnot thrifty golf is in annapolis and like cinco shut up, um, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of great golf up there. I that's surprising because they're, like for Vegas it's such a transient city you know what I mean like people come in play golf, but for us it's very difficult and I I'm surprised, like in that area there's there's so much golf and you're experiencing the same thing that we have out here.

Speaker 2 7:29

Yeah no, the Northeast is is great. There's a lot of good players too, especially when you get up towards the Philly section. I mean it's, it's incredible. I mean just anybody and everybody you run into, just you know you get paired up with them randomly, it's. It doesn't surprise me at all anymore. You go out and they shoot a ho-hum 66, 67, just, oh god, out of nowhere. Did you play any tournament golf?

Speaker 3 7:54

nah, like because there's just the competition is just insane and you guys, you guys have a dead season too right, because the courses shut down and they don't shut down out here a fun little winter tour thing that um goes on every every friday morning just up the road in pennsylvania.

Speaker 2 8:29

That um, yeah, we it's cart covers and heaters, and you know there is no such thing as a frost delay on some of these golf courses out here oh man, wow, that's awesome that's crazy, that's crazy yeah, frost delays out here just ruin the winter because those people that get pushed back, they

Speaker 3 8:49

uh it's no fun.

Speaker 1 8:53

Yeah, okay, um, what? So you said you wanted a 009, so this is. This is the big thing that's going on in the golf space right now is everybody is complaining about everybody copying. Uh, that sure company from you know, the pacific northwest, um, and I I have said you know, uh, ping was copied with scotty's and the newports, and bet nardi copied scotty and the ping newports, and scot and Scottie is copied Odyssey with their new jailbird variant, and you know now Odyssey is copying a lab with their UFO shape looking putter. As a. As a designer and maker of putters, how do I phrase this? Are these people right for being upset that people are copying, or is it? Hey, that's just part of the way it is. Deal with it.

From Pro Shop to Putter Maker

Speaker 2 10:00

There are very few original designs in golf clubs period, not just putters, but golf clubs period. I mean, I'm trying to think of the shapes that haven't really been copied. I mean, even look at, I didn't see much outrage, you know, when Odyssey has basically copied the tailor-made spider shape, which they have a lot. They're not. It's not as close as what Cameron did with Ping or what Odyssey has done with the lab putter, but there are a lot of shapes out there and everybody, everybody and their brother, has copied the Odyssey number seven design.

Speaker 1 10:40

now oh yeah.

Speaker 2 10:42

I mean, that's just like, that's like a standard mallet shape now. So you know, I, I, I would. That's funny people, that's they're. They're like why your g7 looks just like a ping answer.

Speaker 3 10:56

Or it's just a ping answer, it's like and I'd be an idiot not to make it because it's right right easily 80 of my sales, so I mean here's the thing, though, where, where it different, uh, differentiates, or I'm not saying it right, but anyway, it's like all of us on this show are like a firm believer in getting something handcrafted, made for you, something handcrafted made for you, specifically, right, like it's not buying something off the rack.

Speaker 3 11:30

That is not. You know, like people want a ping answer or whatever they want, like that's fine, it's awesome, good for you, but it brings a personality into it. You know, like we, we got ours hand stamped or or milled the way we wanted and we can customize it and that's that's where it's. It's an heirloom, if you will. It's like something like you stamped it with my daughter's uh, uh initials, so that will get passed down to her, whether she plays it or not. My first custom putter was stamped with my son's initials and I get to pass that down to him. Everybody copies everybody, and this is her right here, and she'll probably yell at you, hi twin.

Speaker 3 12:24

But I think that's the thing thing, right, it's not necessarily everybody copies, it's about how much personality do you want to give and get in the game of golf. And that's what I love about you, craftsmen, because there's time involved and, uh, it takes time and you devote your time, yeah, to pass something along to us that we pass along to others.

Speaker 2 12:51

Sure, yeah, and that's the cool thing about, I think, having a putter. I mean, obviously I'm an advocate for that, everybody should buy a putter from me, but it's, I mean, maybe, maybe it is the, the personalization, and I've I've stamped so many people's initials or their kids' initials or dates into them or or just made them look cool or whatever. But then there's also the ability to come to me and say, hey, I want a flow neck that only has a quarter shaft of offset, and I want a perpendicular sight line and I want it to have 42 degrees of toe hang or whatever, and and just things that you can't find on the shelf. So that's what I think it opens up the door to, to just so many possibilities for serious players, for for people who want a collector's item, for you know, all kinds of different people.

Speaker 3 13:43

Yeah, I watched the, the, uh, the documentary that Eric Anders Lang did today about ping and how like crazy he was, you know, with the whole dot system and that's what you provide in a way right To people that you know red dot, orange dot, green dot yeah, Like Carson I would. That documentary was crazy. I never even I've never liked ping, but it's just doesn't fit my vibe. Uh, they obviously make great things, but it's like he provided a way for people for the custom route and that's what you do.

Speaker 1 14:20

Yeah, yeah, having that option out there was relatively unique and new to give people those those options.

Speaker 2 14:30

So that's right I mean everything you see on the shelf has a, has a flange line on it every blade. So like getting getting a top line or just a dot or no line or something like that. It just gets difficult to find.

Speaker 4 14:46

That's why and that's that's.

Speaker 4 14:47

Yeah, as I say, that's what I love about a lot of the putters you make too dave is because, like I've, I've followed you on instagram for a while and just seeing all the little, just intricate little custom stuff that you do whether it's the font of the goodwood, the oil can, um, it's also been pretty awesome to watch because I have three of your putters. Now I have the g6, I was gifted a g7 and then I I have the m2, um, yep, but just just recently you dropped your, your little um. What's that? The glockwood? I think it was, I think it was the name of it. Oh, yeah, yeah, like it's just, it's awesome to see how you've gone from like your normal answer style you know putters like that to dropping that putter and then the new mallets, now with the, with the weights you got inside that you can screw in and everything like it's it's been really cool to see how you've come like full circle from traditional designs to making your own like one-off putters and getting them, like you know, customized and milled certain ways.

Speaker 4 15:52

I think it's awesome what you've done. I'm a huge fan of your work, so I just wanted to get that out of the way.

Speaker 2 15:57

Appreciate it.

Speaker 1 15:58

How long did it take you to learn CAD? I mean that's not like just get CAD for dummies at the library and and design a putter.

Speaker 2 16:07

It's a little bit more involved in that now they're uh, what do people go youtube university um and a lot of facebook pages and forums, and I mean the learning, the CAD part and I am by no means an engineer.

Speaker 2 16:26

I have a good eye for artistic things. Numbers and me don't get along. So the fact that I have this industrial CNC machine back here, like it's amazing that I haven't just blown it up yet and crashed it a thousand times up yet and crashed it a thousand times, um, but yeah, the. So there's the cad portion of it, which is all the designing and modeling of a shape, but then there's the cam portion where you actually have to tell the machine what to do from a block of steel to produce what you want. That part is I'll never learn all of it, it's it's you learn something new every day with it. Um, that I lean heavily on lots of good, lots of good websites and forums out there where you just sit back and I have a million dummy questions, but so do other people and you can just kind of get information without you know actually looking like a dumbass on there do?

Speaker 1 17:21

you go in there in like incognito mode and and not let people know who you are, so someone doesn't go. What?

Speaker 2 17:30

well, and the cool, the other cool thing and I have to, you know, give credit to other people who have helped most other putter makers who do what I do at least the guys who are small enough or whatever. I've talked with plenty of them and we've shared things about, like, how did you machine that or what tooling are you using for this? And then we sit there and gripe about you know the customer service side of it and hated that asshole reach out to you for a putter because he ghosted me and this and that, and it happens a lot. So it's actually fun to be on that side of it too and you get a chance to talk to some of those people as well.

Speaker 1 18:10

Yeah, I was. I helped Ricky Johnson for a while with his, his stuff. He's in Texas and he is in the centrifuge business, and when oil was going nuts and he had, you know, 35 or 40 employees in a 25, 000 square foot warehouse and more money than he knew what to do with, all he did was play golf. And he's like I want to, I'm going to start making putters and, uh, and so he started it. I found him and, and we worked together for a while, but now he's uh, you know, with the, the financial crisis, with oil and and work and metals, uh, now he's down to like three employees and he's one of them, so he's working non-stop now instead of playing golf five days a week. So, but I I you're exactly right with the people reaching out. I mean, it was a every single day, five, six times a day. Hey, I'm an influencer, I'll get you 500 sales, no problem.

Speaker 2 19:08

It's hilarious. My favorite one is the new NIL thing. Man, I get people hey, I'm a second string kicker at a D3 school playing football. Do you do any NIL deals?

Speaker 3 19:24

What does that have to do with golf?

Speaker 2 19:27

Are you serious? Oh yeah. I feel old when I say but kids these days, man, they just think they can get anything and everything. I just have to laugh at it. The first few times it caught me off guard and now it is.

Speaker 1 19:44

Oh that's hilarious.

Speaker 3 19:45

Yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker 1 19:48

Playing South Dakota state community college.

Speaker 3 19:51

I think it's I think it's awesome that it's self-determined, self-taught Like I love that stuff, because I feel like that's missing a lot nowadays. It's like, you know, I try and teach my son that, like, hey, I need help with this. Nowadays, it's like you know, I try and teach my son that, like hey, I need help with this. No, I'll figure it out, you know, and you did that and and that's that's a way of if you want to do something like research, it figure it out. And you did that. That's incredible. I think I love that.

Speaker 2 20:18

Thank you yeah, I mean it's. It's a combination of a lot of being around a lot of the right people. I mean, my dad raised me. We were always doing projects outside or working with my hands and stuff like that, so that came naturally, and then again just I gifted with some artistic ability, but, um, but also meeting the right people along the way at the right time. So after actually I left the golf industry, I worked for a beer distributor. I sold craft beer. Um, so learn learned a lot about um.

Speaker 2 20:53

You love my wall with all my tin signs up here. Um I, uh, I learned a lot about like inventory stuff. I mean that seems really basic, but but going into different stores and seeing how it's part of everything.

Speaker 3 21:06

Yeah, absolutely Necessary.

Speaker 2 21:09

And then from there, I actually bought material for a machine shop and I didn't know anything about machining. But I got to be friends with some of the engineers and everything and learned some of the CAD and then the engineering part of it and learned about the different materials and the process of machining. So everything along the way has kind of all come together and yeah, pretty happy, never want to work for anybody else but myself now. So there you go, exactly.

Speaker 1 21:33

So how many different finishes are you offering right now?

Speaker 2 21:37

So it depends on what steel type you're selecting. But in stainless steel I can just do the standard b blasted satin and then I have like a torch bronze finish that I offer um, and then with carbon steel um, you can get a satin b blasted finish too, or I can give it a raw look that has a little bit of rust with it. There's a gun blue option and then I offer the, the torched and oiled option, which is more like a satin charcoal kind of.

Speaker 4 22:11

A little bit more uniform finish.

Speaker 2 22:14

Yeah, yeah, that one's pretty popular for sure. And then the last one is the what do I call it? The acid wash finish, that's. Jeremy so that one was kind of like came up by mistake. There's a lot of fine like. I'm sure you guys have seen it in person. There's a lot of detail in that one, A lot of little spots and everything on it. It just makes it interesting looking.

Speaker 1 22:38

Oh, we won't tell you what he did to it. It's not forever, it is bright, you know I can imagine, there was a little bit of glare the the amount. How much oil did you soak those in before you wrapped them up? Because when we unwrapped those, like I had, my entire shop was coated in oil. I went to put some some tape on the putter, you know to put the grip on, and the tape just fell off. I'm like there's everywhere.

Speaker 2 23:15

The last thing I want is to have a pretty putter like that and it shows up to somebody and it's gotten like oxidizing and it's just dull and rusty and which which it can happen absolutely. So I just take some spray it actually with pam and wrap it in saran wrap. So pam it might be a little bit of a cleanup, but at least it's not rusted and a good looking finish is ruined I thought that was like 10 30.

Speaker 1 23:43

I have this w30. It was that's so funny.

Speaker 2 23:46

Like everything's coated in oil here, so I don't think about the end user. When they get it, they probably got this out of curiosity.

Speaker 3 23:55

Is that how you came up with the the oil can logo like what's? Is that the origin of the oil can logo?

Speaker 2 24:02

yeah, part of it, because I was a big fan of, and still am big fan of, carbon putters and it's just like I wanted a logo that wasn't like when you first see it you don't think of golf, but as you become familiar with the brand like, you recognize it immediately, and I just wanted something real simple.

Speaker 1 24:20

So that's a great, great way to have it on there. Love it, thank you. The raw when. When you do these raw finishes um, yep what. Oh yeah, you can see my, my quad dots. I had fun today nerd, nerd are you doing anything to these, or is this just when it comes off the machine, it's very bright.

Speaker 2 24:54

It would not be playable. So I actually do sandblast or glass bead blast it, and then I take like a red 3M pad and I just scuff it up a little bit and then I dip it in water and then you can add some. There are all kinds of different concoctions people come up with. You can add salt and hydrogen peroxide and vinegar or whatever, and you just drip a little bit and let it air dry for a little bit and then wipe it off before it gets too bad and it just gives it that natural.

Speaker 1 25:19

It's so cool. Oh, juju's in the chat, juju, yeah, so Joe's long neck. See, I have a long neck from Logan Olsen that he made for me years ago. It's the maximum that it can be. It's right at the legal limit. So it's a little bit longer than this one, but it's not as heavy as this. Got it, I would game it. So it's a little bit longer than this one. Yeah, um, but it's not as heavy as this. And got it I? I would game it, but it's just it's. I can't. You know, I play 30, 33 and three quarters 34, uh, depending on short short.

Speaker 1 25:57

He's a tiny guy tiny guy and but this thing was so hard for to to get it a good swing weight for joe, because I like the heavy head, that's. So what are you, what are you doing to make these so heavy?

Speaker 2 26:15

or are you doing so? Is is your? Is your putter um? Was it one piece or was it a welded knife?

Speaker 1 26:24

mine's one piece. Oh, hit the olsen one, it's a one piece so we can.

Speaker 2 26:31

We can really nerd out about putters if you want to talk about that um, yeah, so go for it in a perfect world, if you want to make something that is specifically a long neck, you would design the rest of the putter head around that neck, or take into consideration that neck. Um, what actually happens when you add a long neck is all right, so you're familiar with center of gravity and all that stuff. Um, so if you imagine the shaft going directly down the center, if it extended past the face through the sole, all that stuff and the putter head was perfectly symmetrical, that would yield a face-balanced putter. Yeah, yeah, given that it's in line with the face and not on set like some of these other fantastic putters that are perfect for everyone out there right now. So what, what you've actually done with that putter by adding a long neck to it, or what I've done to it?

Speaker 4 27:30

is I've?

Speaker 2 27:31

added a lot of weight on the heel and higher up on the face and that actually moves the center of gravity higher and towards the heel of the face, because you take that shaft line and you divide the putter in half. Well, your putter on the heel side weighs a lot more now than it does on the toe side there's a lot more material over there.

Speaker 2 27:53

Yeah, um, so that's one way. A long neck would affect it. Now if you were to design a putter around that, or taking into consider, you're saying, hey, I want to design a putter that's milled one piece with a long neck, you probably change some of the shape and you probably change some of the weighting. You probably make the toe bumper a little bit longer, maybe the top line slopes up some, so you're essentially adding more weight onto the toe to account for all that weight that's going to be on the heel. So with my long necks they're basically I take one of the standard G7s, chop the neck off and add a long one to it.

Speaker 2 28:36

I don't have any individual made to be long neck blade models, so what you can do with that is I could actually machine pockets in the sole and that would move that center of gravity back towards the toe and it would also account for all this extra weight up here. So I, so I can take some weight out in different places if we want to modify it. If it's too heavy for you, we can certainly do that. That's so. That's. That's a very short if. If I had pulled up cad and shared a screen and everything like that. It's really interesting. I can show you just by changing the neck style you can watch the center of gravity jump around and then that kind of you know, obviously that affects toe hang and everything as well yeah and the computer will.

Speaker 1 29:22

You can say, hey, if I take this amount out right here, it'll show you where it's moving. The center of gravity yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2 29:29

Oh, that's so sick, absolutely, yeah, yeah, you're dealing with. You're dealing with the new golf nerd here, so you're good, keep going. And then you can actually. You can actually do the math. Or. Or it becomes predictable if you're producing the same models over and over again, like changing the math, or or it becomes predictable if you're producing the same models over and over again, like changing the neck height or something like that, or adding in a little bit. Also, you can predict what the toe hang is actually going to be as well.

Speaker 1 29:55

So is it pretty accurate? Yeah, yeah yes that's real accurate because Because mine is completely face balanced the Olsen and Joe's has yeah, he's got some hang, not a lot, but he's got some hang on his.

Speaker 2 30:11

Correct. Now there's another thing we actually yeah about 45 degrees. I like the hang. So unfortunately, if you do take weight out of the sole on the heel side, that is going to give it more toe hang, so you're going to lose a little bit of that face balance yeah, that makes sense, totally yeah in a perfect world, I wouldn't. I wouldn't mind. In a perfect world, I did. I would design one face around the fact that it is meant to be a long neck. What's?

Speaker 3 30:52

also interesting about long necks is they were pretty popular back in the day. Now you don't see them anymore. Why do you believe that the newer style they're not offering that for face balanced or anything like that?

Speaker 2 31:09

Mostly because of what I was just talking about. You're really moving the center of gravity away from the center of the face. Honestly, if you were to say you had a sight dot, do you have a sight dot on your putter? I can't remember.

The Art of Handcrafted Putters

Speaker 3 31:22

Yeah, yeah, I'm a right eye dominant sight dot guy. You did the oval. Yeah, I did the oval, I did the circle.

Speaker 2 31:31

Got it the circle, yeah so there is an issue with your putter. That slight dot is not over the center of gravity but it is in the center of the cavity. So it's also which one do you want? Um, yeah, so I think, and I think that's part of the reason why less people are using long necks or or other manufacturers aren't making them, because, I mean, the goal is to have the center of gravity right in the middle of the face, right, yeah?

Speaker 1 32:03

yeah, yeah, yeah. So do you think that's not? The high MOI putter craze that's going on right now is also contributing to that.

Speaker 2 32:13

That's part of it. Yeah, but I think, more than anything it's it's it's the removable weights or the interchangeable weights, where you can achieve face balanced without compromising where the cg is going to be. You can use single bend or double bend shafts to achieve the same thing without adding all of that weight. Yeah, um, so dave, I'll tell you I'll tell you.

Speaker 3 32:39

Let me tell dave something about me that he might not know.

Speaker 1 32:42

Oh god, I'd rather look like that page play well no, no, I'd rather look cool and play well.

Speaker 4 32:48

So I love it, sure, awesome, good, good dan no, you're good, just curious on, like, say, on a long net putter like that, would the center of gravity be affected by towing up or towing down a degree or two, or is it not much significant change?

Speaker 2 33:07

you're talking about changing the lie angle yes, yeah.

Speaker 4 33:12

So say like if you were to drop on, if joe's putter, if you were to drop the toe down like two degrees, would that change the cg and all of it?

Speaker 2 33:20

minimal amount, not not a ton, nothing significant. I they're getting the lie angle correct, though is going to get that face pointed where it needs to be pointed, instead of you know if the toes up.

Speaker 4 33:31

Your face is pointed left so guilty, sure, sure, sure sure I and 90 of people are.

Speaker 2 33:38

How many people do you see with the toe up in the air versus the heel up in the air? It's, it's like 100, almost yeah, it's, it's hilarious.

Speaker 1 33:46

You go into the the like we have pga superstore in las vegas called superstore around here and you see people all the time. They're like they got the putter like this it's like oh my god.

Speaker 2 34:00

Well, what are? What are cameron 71?

Speaker 1 34:02

I think mine are 70 and I'm legitimately thinking of changing all my models to make stock like 68 68 yeah, I mean, I I'm 66 right now is at my, my odyssey that I got bent, and this one, the this one we bent down I think 68, and it's using GC Quad. Today I am still two degrees up at impact, so it may get a little more here in the next day or so it's.

Speaker 2 34:38

It's crazy how, how different a putter will feel too when you get the, when you're actually hitting the middle of the face instead of the bottom of the face, because if, if the toe's up in the air, you're catching it on the bottom of the face and your distance control in the field is not going to be, you know what it could be.

Speaker 1 34:54

So I think yeah, especially with a carbon.

Speaker 3 34:57

I bet you I think just putting itself is just all, feel like what works for you, what looks good, like it's. It's such a feel area you have to cozy one up next to the hole, or if the smack one or it's such a feel instrument if you will Right, like it's like if it doesn doesn't, if it doesn't work for you in your hands, it's, it's tough to get used to. You know. I mean just like uh, buttery flop shots that I do all the time and put them right next to the hole. You know, getting up and down from everywhere.

Speaker 1 35:31

He's so full of shit yeah joe is joe is five feet off the green front pin 64 degrees, let's go all day.

Speaker 3 35:43

When they go, when they go low, we go high.

Speaker 1 35:45

Yeah, that's what I say, and I'll watch you do it all the time and it just I sit there shaking my head, going what are you doing, bro?

Speaker 3 35:55

90 of the time. It works every time, but you know there are those ones that don't work. But uh, yeah, that the the putter is is such a feel thing, man, it's an instrument, right?

Speaker 2 36:08

I mean it's for sure you gotta look over it and feel confident yep well, and that's what yeah, we could get into all that with like people should be fit to putters, not putters or people molding themselves to putters. You know the putter should fit to the end. 100%. Yeah.

Speaker 1 36:28

What's been your?

Speaker 3 36:28

Some people don't agree with that though, yeah just a couple what's been your biggest challenge.

Speaker 2 36:33

With Goodwood, would you say biggest challenge, and with Goodwood, would you say oh man, right now, it's right now it's this new website and dealing with social media companies. It's, but it's serious answer. It's just, I take a lot of pride in some of the new designs Joe or Dan was talking about that. Um, some of the, some of the one-off designs and everything like that, and it sometimes it's a little difficult. I get so amped up about this new design.

Speaker 2 37:04

I've put a lot of time and effort into it, and then people still buy the g7 and they like don't pay any attention to the new stuff. It's demoralizing at times, right, I get it, man, it's not the worst problem in the world to have, but yeah, it's, I, I think so. It's a combination of that. And then people it's trying to figure out what people are actually interested in. Or do they care about the fact that I put champers on two of the edges instead of a radius or something like that, like features that I think are cool? Um, or do they just want they want me to like, put the tiger dots on it and can you make this look just like a double?

Speaker 2 37:46

oh, nine, and, and then I've done multiple requests, yeah, with double oh nine stamped into it and I no, sorry, I can't do that. Yeah, it's just always trying to figure out, like, like, what people are actually interested in. And because it changes, it certainly changed a lot in the last, you know, year or two, you know with the uh, with some newer, balanced models coming out, and so okay, I want to get into your place they what?

Speaker 1 38:22

say that again?

Speaker 2 38:24

I said which they have their place you know, oh, yeah, absolutely yeah.

Custom CAD Design and Machine Work

Speaker 1 38:29

Um, I want to get into your your study that you did. Um, do you want to get into that? Sure, still working on it.

Speaker 2 38:38

It's not complete. I don't think it will ever be complete, but yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 38:42

Because this is available on your website. So tell people what it is. I don't want to botch it, so tell people what it is and what you're doing.

Speaker 2 38:52

So basically, it was born out of the idea that a quote-unquote, zero-tort putter is going to be better for everyone. In my experience leading up to that, I had actually had some interesting findings with what worked for me and what was working for other people that I had recommended some high level players around me and it was interesting that we were just going lighter, more toe hang, less offset, which is just like going like back in time to what, to what things used to be Right and sure, absolutely and and. And it was also born out of some conversations that people had with me when I would post, you know, my opinion of it on Instagram. People I had guys who one guy was like an engineer and he's like it is physically impossible for anybody to square up a putter face as accurately as they can with a zero torque putter, with with any other style putter, and I was like, well, that's, that's patently false.

Speaker 1 40:05

Like that's not true?

Speaker 2 40:07

Um, people are not machines. They, they have just uh, joints and and they rotate like and they compensate for things, um, and so my study was to compare what different toe hangs do, um, what the results are in comparison to zero torque putters, and and then look at you know offsets, what. What are different offsets do for for how the face rotates? Um, and so far what I found I've had a few people come over and hit a bunch of putts also, but mostly myself, I think on average, and I was I'm somewhere 1200, 1300 putts or something like that On average of the charted putts, and I was using the Vertex sensor. I don't know if you guys have heard of that. Yeah, it's awesome, it's, it's fantastic.

Speaker 2 40:58

It's so light and so easy to use and cheap I got excited when I saw the vertex app on our work ipads and I was like, yeah, please tell me that we're getting vertex, so it's very, very interesting yes, so on average I think with both my model, my zero torque model, and one of the lab putters, I was one degree close at impact relative to where I started at address. So one degree again. I'm not good at math but if you off, if you're one degree closed on a 10 foot. I think that's missing the hole.

Speaker 4 41:42

Yeah.

Speaker 2 41:45

Then, with a putter that had straight down 90 degrees of toe, hang, no offset, like just the most opposite end of the spectrum, I could possibly find 0.2 degrees open at impact relative to address consistently, over and over and over again, both of them, like you know, average of 0.1, and it was, and it was like it wasn't like a huge swing, it wasn't like, oh, one time I was 0.2 close, another time I was too close. It was like consistent 0.8, 0.91 degree close, like regularly, um, and it was just like well, this is interesting. This clearly doesn't work for everybody if you have a stroke and you release it a certain way or you can't aim something with three quarters of an inch of onset and your hands way forward will then.

Speaker 2 42:40

It's not for everybody, you know.

Speaker 3 42:43

Yeah, so what you're saying is nobody's a robot and they can't do the same thing every time and nothing is going to work for everybody.

Speaker 2 42:52

Yeah no, there is no magic bullet in golf. It doesn't exist. It will work for some people, but it won't work for everybody. And then the second part of the test was to compare my zero torque putter, which is not actually zero torque, like it would not pass the revealer test, but it is way less torque biased. I wanted to compare those numbers to the lab putter, which is obviously perfectly balanced according to their standards, and the results were the same. Matt did you?

Speaker 3 43:26

see this uh comment. Do you want to throw it up there?

Speaker 1 43:28

yeah, so I, I do you follow beautiful golf courses at all? Uh, they're, I might. They're a huge instagram account that they share a lot of golf, beautiful golf courses and Mike is a friend of ours. He says this seems way more objective, like something we do in academic medicine research. Do you know if lab has ever done a study like this outside of the Rubeller video?

Speaker 2 43:51

Yes, I do oh.

Speaker 3 43:54

Oh, oh, oh oh.

Speaker 2 43:58

Oh, oh, oh oh. Oh man, I'm going to get a phone call or text. I talked with the guy who did the original studies with them, wow, and I feel bad because he was really nice when he was on, like he didn't say anything bad about me. I feel I feel bad. But there's a reason. There are no numbers in any of the advertising. That's all I have to say. There you go, look it is I mean does anyone does everyone else notice that oh, that's one of the there are no numbers, dude, one of the biggest comments from people that uh, enjoyed my video.

Speaker 1 44:43

Not that, not the haters. The people that actually enjoyed and understood what I was doing. Tell me the numbers, and I mean that. I get that a lot. So look on the chasing daylight podcast everyone's all about.

Speaker 3 44:58

We're big proponents of use what works for you, what you like. If it works for you, then use it. We're sure massive that's what we preach.

Speaker 1 45:11

If it works for you, then it works for you, you know yeah absolutely, I, I, I'm gonna get steve jackson over the house because I'm gonna, I'm gonna put some dots on a couple of his putters and, uh, we're gonna have some fun with that. I, I, I did, I did my jailbird today, I did the goodwood, I did my odyssey blade. Um, I'm gonna do the square to square mag stripe tomorrow afternoon and uh, yeah, so I, I'm, I'm just curious to see. I, I love, I'm a data data nerd. I love the data, I love seeing it and I still have I mean, I'm still learning all that what that data means. I, I mean, I know what the numbers are, but in conjecture with your swing, and what it means for you personally, that's, that's what I'm trying to dig into to understand yeah, well, I mean, everything in golf is driven by numbers.

Speaker 2 46:06

I mean, all anybody talks about is what's your ball speed, what are your spin rates like? How have we gotten to a place where yeah, the hottest putter uses no numbers in their sales and everyone's buying into it like.

Speaker 2 46:20

It just doesn't make any sense to me it makes no sense at all um, that's crazy, and and I didn't set out to- do this I, I didn't do this study to like sure, I'm biased and I want to sell my own. But when I came out with my own I I had some spare heads sitting and I was just like you know what? I'm just going to throw a head, or I'm just going to throw a shaft over the center of gravity or pretty close to it, and I pre-sold them and they sold out in like 20 minutes. Like I could just stop making everything else and come up with cool designs for zero torque putters and I'd probably be making more money right now. I mean, it's that hot right now, but I'm no saint, but I I also don't believe that that's right for everyone and and I don't want to put myself into that corner- that's it.

Speaker 1 47:14

It's not right for everybody.

Speaker 3 47:16

Don't be a one-trick pony, right I there could be a guy that just whips it around and just like trying to throw a fishing reel, and that's his feel, that's not going to work for him.

Speaker 2 47:29

Have you guys tried them, used them? Hit any pucks with them, and not just labs or anything?

Speaker 1 47:34

like that.

Zero-Torque Putter Study Findings

Speaker 2 47:36

Yeah, I haven't done any of the other ones.

Speaker 1 47:38

They're stable, they're stable yeah, yeah, I haven't done it. There's a little stable. Um, our friend steven jackson is a big lab fanboy, loves them, has all of them, all the models, and I've hit all of them and I, I for me, just that, far off the face, the where the shaft enters, the, the head having that much behind or in front of the shaft is just so unappealing to me.

Speaker 1 48:04

And then the, the crazy forward shaft lean. I just I'm, I just don't, it just doesn't jive for me, it's not for me, it's not right now. They, they feel good and you know, I, I like I've said I have no gripe with their putters, I have a gripe with a revealer, right, but yeah, it's just, I mean, it's not for everybody, it's it's. I'm one of those people it's definitely not for.

Speaker 3 48:30

Yeah, I'm the same way.

Speaker 2 48:32

And one of the things that I pointed to was actually so you hate the onset.

Speaker 2 48:37

Oh, here's my theory on it and actually so you hate the onset. Oh, that's my theory on it and it and it's just a theory, I don't know, but I think everyone's so used to a full shaft of offset with a plumber's neck and they're putting sucked, and they were they just they built up all this like scar tissue over over that and they just like come up with so many compensations and their strokes and everything like that and all of a sudden you're giving them something that they've never looked down at before and now they have all this onset and they might have already had that for a press and it's just like holy shit, I'm looking at something totally different.

Speaker 1 49:12

Yeah and a giant like maybe it's just that honeymoon period.

Speaker 2 49:17

It's, it's and maybe it's actually better for people, but I think there hasn't been enough attention paid to the onset portion of it. I think that's where a lot of the success actually does come from, probably. It's just something for people to look down at. That's totally different and they've never seen it before.

Speaker 1 49:37

Yeah, that's totally different and they've never seen it before. Yeah, yeah, I, I saw. We, we had fittings, uh last week and I went over to the putting green and was rolling some putts for a little bit and I saw a guy with a backstrike putter the odyssey, you know what, the, the curve where it's mounted in the heel and uh, he had, he was probably six four5" and he had this putter. It was broomstick but it came up to his chin almost and he stood side saddle and held it in front of him like this and was putting with it. It was like wow.

Speaker 1 50:16

But I mean, that's where putters are. So you know, specific to a user, does that putting stroke and that putter makes sense? For most people absolutely not. But dude was rocking it and yeah, I'm sure it was not legal because it was way too long it was. You know, you, uh, it was just wild, it was wild to see. But I was like I was walking by, I'm going wow, I've seen those, you know, I know about them, but I've never seen like somebody playing with one yeah I think that's what's so cool about golf, too is like it's so personal, right, like a lab, especially for you.

Speaker 3 51:01

Yeah, that putter is your tool, it's your paintbrush, right, and it's so specific to the person. And they're like you said, there's no magic bullet. You know, everybody has a different stroke and everybody has a different golf swing, and that's where the magic of golf is revealed. You know, I've I've played golf with so many different types of people and just to play golf with, like somebody that is cool and gives me a good time, like that's what really matters at the end of the day for me. But putting is so personal, you know, and it's like use what works for you, like you want custom, you want something that people are playing. Putting is a personal endeavor and that's why putting people pack, practice it all the time, like that's why putting mats are probably the best training tools sold in golf stores because they can do it in their home, you know it's easy to do it all right, what?

Speaker 2 52:14

what's the craziest request you've gotten for a putter? Oh, I'd have to think about that one. I mean copies for sure. Yeah, like and I'm not just, I'm not talking about just like, stamp 009 on my putter. Um, yeah, which I've gotten, that one, um, but like, send me one of scotty cameron's new like phantom mallets, and they're like I want you to reproduce this and change these things and I'm like dudeantom malice and they're like. I want you to reproduce this and change things.

Speaker 2 52:40

I'm like dude this thing's like eight pieces, like you, want me to do a run off. I put the fear into them of what that number is actually going to cost or what it's actually going to be.

Speaker 3 52:58

I would love for you to, if you can I mean I don't have any questions but dive into like the scotty cameron craze. I mean I know we talk a lot about lab nowadays, but scotty's been around a long time and like he's copied and like, I mean like I jump on.

Speaker 1 53:17

What are you?

Speaker 3 53:18

doing. No, I'm trying.

Speaker 4 53:19

There's like a gnat yeah, I've noticed in that too he's doing all this. I'm like what are you doing?

Speaker 3 53:25

it's driving me crazy, but anyway, like you know, it's like he's copied. I mean, karsten was a legend, of course, but like scotty is of course, a legend, and I and I know a lot of people like lab is the topic right now, but like scotty is considered a legend.

Speaker 1 53:47

Like I'm curious, I and however, you want in there, joe yeah.

Speaker 3 53:53

however, you want to take it like I don't understand the scot craze, and that's me.

Speaker 2 54:02

That's the lab craze too.

Speaker 3 54:03

There we go, so that's what I wanted to get into, because Jeremy's not here and he's a huge, huge Scotty fan and I just don't get it Like personally, I do not understand it at all and I'm just curious on your thoughts on that. That's all I was getting at.

Speaker 2 54:18

His older stuff. Um, before I knew about a lot of different makers like definitely his earlier stuff and and still I appreciate his older. I shoot. I probably have like 15 or 20 camerons, I'm not gonna lie I have them, they're.

Speaker 2 54:33

They're the old oil cans or the, or the trillion and all the older ones are old, circa 62s and stuff like that, all the old ones, um, the carbon stuff back in the day, sure, sure, yeah. And super light, um, yeah now. Now it's just it's gotten more about, like it seems that it's gotten especially especially with the blades. It's just like make a slight change to the neck, but it's mostly like come up with a cool name for something Like we're going to call it toe flow and we're going to call this one a jet neck and we're going to. You know, it's a lot of marketing, it's a lot of marketing and he's been very successful at it.

Speaker 2 55:16

And that's why I think there's such a craze with lab now is here's the? Here's the question I, I, I've been asking people lately, so I think this is it with cameron too. What sells cameron? Is it the actual putter or is it the message and the name behind it? Like if you were to apply a percentage to either one and then do the same with lab. For me, I think lab is at least 75% of the message, if not more. If you had no marketing material and you had all the putters sitting out on a shelf, which one are you going to pick up? Probably not the lab right, but because people know the message, they pick it up.

Speaker 2 55:57

Same thing with Cameron Like there are a lot of pretty things out there, and I think that's what it is. Tiger used it. The right people have used Cameron's too.

Speaker 4 56:12

And that's what a lot of it is.

Speaker 1 56:16

Yeah, it was tour-proven, and then you get the collectors in there and then you know you find out that circle t's are going for five, six, ten thousand dollars and you're like, oh, maybe if this this 299, one off the rack at golf galaxy uh maybe I'll have that same aura.

Speaker 3 56:36

That's the thing, though, like ping has a vault of gold putters from their tournaments, right, and scotty has a bunch of wins right, and that's that's before. They mass produced like who is next? Because there's going to be somebody, yeah, that actually builds it personally specifically for you and brands and like who's going to have the next ping vault. You know that actually. No, and that's what I'm no, that's what I'm saying is Scotty went from carbon to GSS. I do not like GSS, feel at all personally Carbon.

Speaker 2 57:23

Can you tell the difference? I'm going to challenge you on that. I bet in a blind test you could not tell the difference between regular stainless GSS and carbon. Yeah, magnet, it's a magnet.

Speaker 3 57:33

I feel my magnetized thing not go on it.

Speaker 1 57:38

Well, he's talking about the GSS.

Speaker 4 57:39

I'll talk about the GSS when you're hitting a putt.

Speaker 3 57:43

I do have, but if they were the same swing weight maybe I could. But I have two high-end putters and they're probably different swing weights and I do not like the feel of one of them at all. I'm not going to call that brand out at all.

Speaker 2 57:59

Um, no, carbon long neck that matt's got sitting over there no, no, I love the feel of it.

Speaker 3 58:05

It's just too heavy. Yeah, that's carbon, that's carbon. Uh, I have a stainless steel putter that I I like. I love what it represents and I love the creator it came from. I cannot play it. I'm never playing it. We've messed with it a bunch.

New Mallet Design and Customization

Speaker 1 58:23

Logan did this one for me, nice, and I absolutely love it. But I cannot putt with it.

Speaker 2 58:34

I make some really cool putters that I can never putt with. I've tried so many times putters that I can never putt with.

Speaker 1 58:38

I mean it's yeah, yeah. I've tried so many times. It's so personal, that's the thing that's, it's personal, not.

Speaker 3 58:44

There's no silver bullet, exactly out of your mouth, exactly what you said, right? No, several bullet hey dave.

Speaker 4 58:52

Uh, speaking of making cool putters, are you ever going to do a like a heel shafted like 8802 style putter?

Speaker 2 59:02

I get those requests.

Speaker 4 59:04

So, dude, I love that putter.

Speaker 2 59:07

In its simplicity. It should be like. It's like the simplest thing right. Getting the proportions and the design just right is the hardest putter to get right, like it's wild to think about. But there are no flat surfaces other than the face, and then you have to mold the heel and it all has to make sense. And I've tried it a few times and I just get frustrated and just delete it and like just start over, and I never come up with one that I was actually happy with.

Speaker 2 59:37

At some point I will, but and then and then machining something like that as one piece is incredibly difficult I've heard a lot of the old original nappas that amaran made were actually two-piece and then welded and smoothed out and you couldn't tell I could see that it just it makes so much more sense time-wise. Well, and what machining capabilities were back when he was making? Those are certainly not what they are today. Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 1 1:00:07

All right, hang on, we got some things here. So Mike said the guys on tour are neurotic OCD professionals, obsessed with numbers and data. Every one of them on the range is a track man and every shot, looking at data, we got that one. There's a reason the best putters on tour aren't using a lab. That's true. Yeah, um, although ricky did, ricky did have a good weekend this past weekend. He, he was six and strokes game putting. It was funny. Amanda boleyn balionis called him out on it and and he was like she goes, you were 116th but you're sixth this week and he's like well, that's a little better.

Speaker 2 1:00:41

Yeah, so they've had some wins in good weeks right.

Speaker 1 1:00:47

I mean yeah.

Speaker 3 1:00:49

Well, sometimes I put good, Sometimes I put like shit, and they do the same thing. Man, you know, that's right.

Speaker 1 1:00:56

Brooks is asking what's the best putter ever created in your guys' opinion? That's a loaded question, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:01:05

God, this new mallet I am. Ah there you go, there you go and Show that off, show it off.

Speaker 1 1:01:14

Here, let me get you. You want to see mine I'll show you mine If you're a carbon fan. Let's do this here.

Speaker 2 1:01:23

There we go. So mine doesn't have any. I didn't add any of the markings yet, but it's just, it's raw, rusty carbon steel.

Speaker 3 1:01:30

I don't know how well you can say that Rusty carbon steel, there we go.

Speaker 2 1:01:36

But the solid aluminum top, my. My concept with these was like you get this really nice, like it's really nice, like uh, aluminum black finish on top and everything like that and really nice machine. Top side it looks technical or whatever and then underneath you have like old school rust like that's. So it's just like kind of like a combination of those two things and then you take it apart and you can swap out the weights inside. So I'm really excited about those. Those are my, those are my new favorites. For sure are you going to?

Speaker 1 1:02:11

do any other different types of necks on those, or is it only going to be like a double bin?

Speaker 2 1:02:17

not, oh, oh, yeah, no, so that's the thing you can like. This one's got a short sign on it, so everyone actually gets your choice of welded neck yeah, I've already done a long neck on one. I've done, uh, a regular plumber's neck, yeah, and I offer them in stainless and and carbon that's why I love it, that's why I like it. Somebody that makes it for you personalized any alignment aid on top too, so I can do like perpendicular lines and parallel lines and you know all that stuff, so triple track very limited, very limited quantities right now available on my website nice, all right.

Speaker 1 1:03:00

What are those? What are those going for? Like typical build?

Speaker 2 1:03:05

so the order process is a little bit different than my normal ones. Right now you actually go to my store page um 25 is just like the initial thing, Like so that I know you're serious about wanting one. Once you submit the $25, you pay out through my store. Then I send you the order form, which is a little bit different than my normal ones, and I think the balance on that's a five 75. So there are 600. Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:03:36

But, very like I said, very limited prototype models. Everybody loves a putter that says prototype on it somewhere. But, seriously, they are the very first ones.

Speaker 1 1:03:47

How thick is that sole plate, like the carbon one that you have on there? How, or any one of them, I guess it doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 1:03:57

Actually here's a. So this is? This is a blank piece without any neck, obviously without the top, with no finish on it it's not as beefy as it looks no, it's, it's pretty compact um what's the?

Speaker 1 1:04:12

what's the head weight on the stainless version?

Speaker 2 1:04:16

So it depends on what neck style you get. If you get a plumber's neck I put it in the description I got to remember If you get a plumber's neck with no weights in it, so sorry, real quick, there are stainless and tungsten weights, so you can do combinations of the two or leave no weights in it. I think if you have like a plumber's neck with no weights in it, somewhere around like 335 um, and then the tungsten weights are 15 and a half grams each, so so there's a pretty wide variety, and then there's also space in here. If you want to throw lead tape in here, you can.

Speaker 2 1:04:56

Oh, yeah, bump it up as much as you want, very easily, yeah oh, you can get. Yeah, so that that was kind of the idea is just to, and then you can put you know by moving the weights, you know, versus heel, versus toe, you're actually moving that cg around a little bit and it might slightly adjust some of the toe hang as well.

Speaker 2 1:05:17

Might slightly adjust some of the toe hang as well, so damn cool, congrats on that one it's been pretty popular so far. Yeah, yeah, it's been pretty popular. But again, kind of like I was saying before, one of the hardest parts is everybody still wants to buy a standard G7.

Speaker 1 1:05:35

No, that's what you need to do is, when they click on the order g7, it just takes you to that other butter are you sure?

Speaker 4 1:05:42

are you sure you don't?

Speaker 1 1:05:44

want this one, are you, but have you seen this?

Speaker 2 1:05:48

right, I actually there. There is one other one that I have. We just finished up the prototype one that I can't speak too much of, but so I do all the design work for my friend um, who owns longbow putters, so he's a broomstick. Oh yeah, um, you talk about meeting interesting people. Um, his name's zach miller. He went to stanford and won the national championship in 2007 as their captain. Like how many people can say that that's pretty cool? And so he, randomly, he moves from California to Baltimore in 2020.

Speaker 4 1:06:27

And I randomly Obey obey.

Speaker 2 1:06:30

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3 1:06:32

OG, OG. So now we've been making putters together for a while.

Speaker 2 1:06:34

So now we've been making putters together for a while, but we have a new one coming out that we talk about. Maybe the zero torque thing doesn't work for you, or maybe you need some face balance, or maybe you need some toe hang. Well, we're going to have a putter where you're going to be able to select all of that yourself.

Speaker 1 1:06:52

You want some work.

Speaker 2 1:06:55

Like changing some you can have max torque. Like changing some, you can have max torque too, but basically a contraption that will allow you to change the shaft position and balance without buying a whole new putter.

Speaker 1 1:07:10

So I'm really excited about those.

Speaker 2 1:07:12

And then we're going to do a smaller, co-branded counterbalance version of that as well. All right, let's go through the golf bag, and then we're going to do a smaller, co-branded counterbalance version of that as well.

Speaker 1 1:07:19

So, All right. Let's go through the golf bag. What's what's in your? What are you playing to nowadays?

Speaker 2 1:07:26

I don't play.

Speaker 1 1:07:28

You don't play at all.

Golf Equipment Preferences and Courses

Speaker 2 1:07:31

Not much. No, I just left, I was at a club for a while, and I just left at the end of last year.

Speaker 1 1:07:40

So what's the cobwebs on the bag?

Speaker 2 1:07:45

The QI10 driver with the Tori ID. I forget the orange and black one. I don't remember which model it is Ping G25 3-wood, I believe Ping G25 hybrid, and I just got a new set of older 2023 T200s.

Speaker 1 1:08:14

Jeremy would be proud.

Speaker 2 1:08:16

Tailor-made wedgesges. I forget which models they are. They're the ones with the raw faces in them. Um, but the only club that really matters yeah, right, there, there it is.

Speaker 3 1:08:28

What is your, what's your hidden gems around you? Are you close to like bull rock? I mean, I would assume you're close to Bull Rock, right, tully Rock?

Speaker 2 1:08:35

yeah, Tully Rock yeah, I mean yeah. So that had the McDonald's. That was one of the LPGA majors for years, played that many times. It's a P-Tie course. If you like P-Tie, you'll like it. If you don't like P-Tie, you'll absolutely hate it, hate it.

Speaker 1 1:08:55

As with most of his courses that hate it. As with most of his courses, that course old Matt gave me.

Speaker 2 1:09:01

Yeah, they could have a tour event at that place if they tipped it out, because it's brutally long and it's right next to the water, so that it's soaked constantly.

Speaker 1 1:09:12

Oh, he still has it. I figured that was on whatnot already.

Speaker 3 1:09:15

No, this is not going on, whatnot? No, this one won't go on, whatnot?

Speaker 1 1:09:18

So that is a range flag that was flown at the P-Di course that is signed by P-Di.

Speaker 2 1:09:25

There we go.

Speaker 3 1:09:26

Nice.

Speaker 1 1:09:27

Yeah, very cool. Joe loves P-Di.

Speaker 2 1:09:33

BCC is probably top of the list here and then Caves Valley They've had the BMW out, which I think it's coming back to again, and then I've been fortunate enough to play Lancaster a few times, which just had one of the. Was that the league?

Speaker 1 1:09:50

How was that? That's my favorite course.

Speaker 2 1:09:53

It's unbelievable.

Speaker 1 1:09:55

Have you done much traveling.

Speaker 2 1:09:58

No, I pretty much stick in this area. I love bent grass and I never want to play on anything else.

Speaker 3 1:10:07

I don't blame you.

Speaker 2 1:10:09

I love elevation changes I have zero interest in going down to Florida and playing golf on home-line golf courses. I just have no interest in it.

Speaker 3 1:10:18

There's a few, but I get you, we're golf course nerds too.

Speaker 4 1:10:27

I'm going to say I'm impressed.

Speaker 2 1:10:29

That's good for me, I've heard, Michigan has some really really good courses.

Speaker 3 1:10:36

Dan's going to.

Speaker 4 1:10:36

Michigan. I go to Michiganigan on thursday um real quick dave, have you played french creek?

Speaker 2 1:10:49

I haven't no, okay, that's the only course I played out in that area?

Speaker 4 1:10:59

what? Area it's um, I think it's near elverson. That's um like, uh, it's in between westchester and lancaster oh, okay, got it.

Speaker 2 1:11:09

Yeah, no, I haven't. So, yeah, that's, that's more towards going out towards philly yeah, it's closer to philly.

Speaker 4 1:11:17

I went out there for the US Open at Marion and a buddy of mine he was a tailor-made rep. He was a tailor-made rep out there and he got us onto French Creek.

Speaker 1 1:11:26

A lot of tailor-made talk on the show tonight. I'm not a fan of that.

Speaker 2 1:11:35

They're a bunch of really good courses up there. Everybody knows the, the high level courses like philly cricket and some of these other places. But there are a lot of country clubs up there that are like super high dollar, that people don't even know about and they're like tilling house designs and stuff like that.

Speaker 3 1:11:50

It's crazy, dude perfect there's so many like underground spots that people don't even know that are so sick yeah, mike was in the valley area. I forgot that that's what I love about that area. Man like, like, yeah, I said and raven so much cool like field stone, like you heard of the field stone and I forgot about that.

Speaker 2 1:12:11

One was like whoa, yeah, this place is awesome yeah it's got ruins.

Speaker 3 1:12:16

It's got like ruins of old times, man. There's so much incredible stuff up there, man.

Speaker 1 1:12:24

Well, hey, you got anything else you want to do. You haven't played any desert. Well, get your ass out to Vegas, come on.

Speaker 3 1:12:29

I'm going to Vegas. It's a marketing trip.

Speaker 1 1:12:32

Just write it off.

Speaker 4 1:12:34

We have bent grass out here there is, believe it or not, a couple of spots. Yeah, trip, just write it off. We have bent grass out here, there is believe it or not, a couple yeah elevation of

Speaker 1 1:12:43

course, just a little, just a little yeah, of course yeah, just it's. It's a marketing trip. Just tell your accountant hey, I gotta go to vegas, it's, it's research there's research and it's research.

Speaker 2 1:12:56

I like that go out there and do some more putter studies.

Speaker 1 1:13:01

I have to go see how this finish handles the 110 degree heat and no humidity.

Speaker 4 1:13:06

So it's it's very important I get out there.

Speaker 1 1:13:12

yeah, we have people coming out here now that they know June is coming and we're already hitting 100 degrees. And you know, I look on my thermometer and I have my house and it's like the backyard it's 103, 1% humidity.

Speaker 3 1:13:27

It's amazing no humidity.

Speaker 1 1:13:30

That's why I wanted this raw.

Speaker 2 1:13:32

I don't know.

Speaker 1 1:13:34

It'll look like this forever.

Speaker 2 1:13:35

It was like 40 degrees outside today. It's like fall. I love it. I love't know It'll look like this forever. It was like 40 degrees outside today. It's like fall.

Speaker 3 1:13:41

I love it.

Speaker 2 1:13:44

It's just supposed to be warmer by now. It'll be hot before we know it.

Speaker 1 1:13:55

So you got anything else you want to throw out there to the millions of listeners? We have millions, I'd say no, I don't think so.

Speaker 2 1:14:05

Um yeah, just uh. Unless you guys have any other questions about real nerdy stuff or design stuff, I can always talk about that do you have a head shape that you prefer?

Speaker 1 1:14:20

I mean, I know you got the new mallet and you're pushing that clearly, but do you have something that like if, if you only can make one putter or goodwood, what would it be?

Speaker 2 1:14:30

for sales, just the g7 just the g7, if it's my like.

Speaker 2 1:14:35

That's the one that sells, for sure, but I would actually say the M1 that Dan has. That's actually what I used up until this new mallet that I came up with. It's it's not a huge mallet, it's not a thin blade. I can add any kind of welded neck to it. It's symmetrical, so I can make it left-handed too. It's got enough room on it where I can add weight with a neck or I can take weight out of the sole of it. It's just one of the best models that I think I've come up with.

Speaker 1 1:15:12

Did you self-teach?

Speaker 2 1:15:12

yourself welding too. Teach yourself welding too. That is one thing I do not do. I can do it, but every welding job that I have is to clean up some stamping mistake, and then I'm machining over it or sanding it down so you can't see it. No, I, I, I have a buddy who, uh, lives close by, who does my welding for me, because he knows what he's doing.

Speaker 3 1:15:36

So yeah, I did have a question before we get out of here. It's really good yes, my thoughts on logan olsen's fitting style. Did you see that video today where it's the back that you can change and you throw the weights in? Did you see that today or no?

Speaker 2 1:15:55

you want to see something uh, yes, of course something I came up with like a year ago yes, so I honestly, I I did come up with a g7, actually that has, uh, an entire backside that comes off, has an insert that you can swap out with different materials inside when you pull off the bumpers. There are actually holes in here, so I have cylinder weights that are actually clamshelled inside so you can adjust the weight. And then, uh, joe, a long neck just for you this is, but you can change to something else, wow, and you can go straight to a flow neck if you'd like to Wow.

Speaker 2 1:16:48

No, I didn't see the video, sorry, I just had to share my version because I saw it and of course I'm like I got one of those sitting right here. We'll send it to you. I also saw a video recently that had his um said like step inside my office or something or whatever, and it showed like his work area. Do you look up, if you look at the models on the uh two cnc machines that he has? Look up the Look up the price tags on those things?

Speaker 1 1:17:18

Just a little bit.

The Future of Putter Technology

Speaker 2 1:17:20

Yeah, not my budget, not my league. What he came up with is really clean. I think that's the way things are going in the putter industry. Aside from the zero torque thing, I think, honestly, a lot of the stamping has been played out. All the designs are taken. Now it's going to be like what's the functionality of it, how can it be adjusted to fit more people and how can the end user change things? So yeah, Not one.

Speaker 2 1:17:52

How easy is it now to swap out a driver shaft or a three-wood shaft or a hybrid shaft or whatever, or have like a sliding weight on the bottom of it? I mean there's there's no reason. That is going to be in putters as well yeah, yeah, that is the future.

Speaker 1 1:18:07

All right, what's this here? Uh, I got another question. If you had a game, one golf brand, for the rest of your life, what would it be? I'll say driver all the way to putter, oh goodness, hey goodness, hey, shout out Brooks man.

Speaker 3 1:18:18

I think he's a whatnot buyer. Right, that's Brooks Golf right.

Speaker 1 1:18:21

Shout out Brooks. Thanks for the questions. We love the questions.

Speaker 3 1:18:25

Love it.

Speaker 1 1:18:26

Oh man, I would have to think about that.

Speaker 2 1:18:29

Are you guys going to answer this too?

Speaker 3 1:18:31

Oh yeah, national customs through the bag, yeah, customs through the bag. All national customs Persimmon. National customs Larson.

Speaker 2 1:18:40

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 1:18:43

Thanks, brooks, appreciate you.

Speaker 2 1:18:46

Is that like the custom? Yeah, Larson.

Speaker 3 1:18:49

I have to go Larson, larson, driver persimmon, and then national customs all the way down. They make putters too. No, goodwood putter, goodwood putter, sorry.

Speaker 2 1:19:04

You broke the rules already.

Speaker 1 1:19:06

Yeah, you broke the rules with the first pick. Oh man, I don't know if I could do.

Speaker 3 1:19:15

I support the ones that support us. That's.

Speaker 1 1:19:18

That's what I'm about I mean I, I, it would be a toss-up between titleist and mizuno for me, honestly because I think I could play the woods. I would have to say you know?

Speaker 3 1:19:29

legally I could play mizuno woods I don't think I would never.

Speaker 2 1:19:34

Well, they're good, never, wow, they're good, they're good, but if I had to play, like, if I were good enough to play on tour, like I could sign a Mizuno contract, like and I wouldn't hate it. I feel like.

Speaker 3 1:19:44

I'd be happy to.

Speaker 1 1:19:47

They don't pay their players, though right, Isn't that true? They don't.

Speaker 2 1:19:51

I don't think they have a full. No, they a full. They pay their players, it's just their deals are a little bit different in the structure. You can get just an iron deal or something like that whereas. Callaway. It's typically, you got the full bag deal.

Speaker 1 1:20:06

Same thing with Tuggeras and stuff I mean me, I'd have to lean towards Callaway right now, because that's what I'm playing and that's what I'm comfortable with.

Speaker 3 1:20:16

Company man, I do like the new man.

Speaker 1 1:20:19

Hey, we're talking everything, though you know drivers, fairway woods, irons, wedges, putters, I mean uh, don't even get it started.

Speaker 3 1:20:32

It's a bad question for matt brooks it's a bad question for Matt. He's a psycho.

Speaker 1 1:20:40

Does Callie make any?

Speaker 2 1:20:41

smooth-faced steel putters.

Speaker 3 1:20:44

Not anymore.

Speaker 2 1:20:46

No inserts, no, none of that stuff. See, that's why I call it.

Speaker 3 1:20:50

Callie See, okay. So how do you feel about inserts? Inserts suck right. It depends on what the material is. So how do you feel about inserts?

Speaker 2 1:21:00

Inserts suck right, I don't like inserts. Depends on what the material is. I'm not a big fan of a lot of the aluminum inserts and the polymer inserts. I think if you want to do like like, I think it'd be cool to do like a carbon head with a stainless insert or vice versa, or whatever.

Speaker 2 1:21:16

I think that would be cool, or if you want to use copper or something, but I'm not a big fan of the aluminum inserts and the polymer ones, yeah, just not my thing. I've seen a lot of them get dented. Uh, the aluminum ones or or the yeah, or the epoxy or however they're connecting them. People leave their clubs in their trunks.

Speaker 1 1:21:35

105 degree heat out there and you know the dan, you probably know the stx putters that had that rubber face. I do. I had a, a friend who had the one that looked like it was weird, like a t right yep and, and the face on it was like curling off of it and he would still play it bro, you're not even, what are you doing. And he's like don't care. And he rolled that thing forever.

Speaker 2 1:22:03

Those were made, made right by here, not far from me yeah, this is a lacrosse brand, you know, and yeah, that's the big thing around here is this little stuff oh, my daughter got into lacrosse as she got into high school.

Speaker 1 1:22:22

That is a crazy sport, crazy sport. Well, hey, man, I know it's super late for you. I thank you so much for staying up late with us and having you on the show. You're welcome to come back anytime you ever want to chat, and I encourage everybody to go to the goodwood website. Uh, explore it. Look at all the different options that he has on there. Uh, read the. What's the case that? Is it a case study or what do you have? What's it labeled as?

Speaker 2 1:22:50

yeah, it's, it's the case study or something, one of the tabs on my website. It's I need to update and do a better job with it, but but if you like numbers, there's just a giant spreadsheet there and some of my thoughts along with it that you can look at.

Speaker 1 1:23:02

So and what's your patreon about?

Speaker 2 1:23:06

so the patreon account I haven't been advertising too much because I'm working on a new website that will have its own subscription thing, but what you can do is actually it's five dollars a month. I do a custom ball marker giveaway every week, um so like I.

Speaker 2 1:23:23

I just sit around and come up with something cool Some I've made, some that look like Rolexes and some that look like Copenhagen tin cans and stuff like that, and it's always something different I come up with it. So every week I do a random drawing for that. Then once a month I give a putter a full custom build putter giveaway. You go on fill out the order form For the price of a dozen provies for the year you're entered to win all those things.

Speaker 1 1:23:58

So Sounds like a deal and then I actually have it and then you get.

Speaker 2 1:24:03

you also get um first look at new models. So you have first look and first right to buy for like two or three weeks before I release it out to the public as well. So I feel like it's a good deal, so yeah it is for five bucks a month, that's it's. It's not a place where, like, I'm releasing, like it's not a podcast thing or video stuff. Like a lot of people use patreon, it's strictly for the giveaway things if people are interested in in having a chance to win some stuff or or want to be able to see new models.

Speaker 2 1:24:35

Like that's what it's there for. I'm not real active on it, so you go on there expecting to see a bunch of content from me like that's not what it's for.

Speaker 1 1:24:44

So well, your instagram I don't have time for the content thing that's, that's whatnot proud like. Are you doing joe's a whatnot lunatic right now? So, um, have you. Are you doing Joe's a whatnot lunatic right now? So have you. Are you doing all your socials? Is it all you? Yeah, yeah, awesome, that's. That is difficult.

Speaker 2 1:25:05

That is difficult. Yeah, it is a lot.

Speaker 1 1:25:10

It is a lot, so kudos to you for that.

Speaker 2 1:25:15

When it's time to hire somebody, it's customer service and social media. Those are the first two things, without a doubt.

Speaker 1 1:25:22

Dude and I know, with the Vegas Golf Network and the podcast and everything, I'm so anti anybody else having anything to do with it. I don't want to give somebody the ability to help me because then they're not doing what I would do. So it's, it's very I'm the same one.

Speaker 2 1:25:45

Yeah, it's very challenging.

Speaker 1 1:25:46

So congrats on all your success with that, because that's, that's a, that's another job in itself hell yeah, it is, especially with the way today is so yeah, yeah all right, man.

Speaker 1 1:26:00

Well, thanks so much again for coming on. Uh, like I said, everybody, go check out the website. You want to get a putter bill send in that 25 bucks. Get on the list. Uh, get your orders in and he'll take care of you. The work is amazing. We absolutely love them and I encourage anybody if you're in the market for an amazing putter by an amazing craftsman at a fantastic price, incredible quality. I mean, just look at this. It speaks for itself.

Speaker 3 1:26:27

That's mine, sick. I love it so much that's just now mine.

Speaker 1 1:26:32

I have two Goodwoods now. I have cameras at the house, so I know when joe will be here it's got, three dan's got three. Uh, all right, joe. Oh, look at that, you've got a couple more yeah all right, joe, do your thing, take us away and let's get out of here guys.

Speaker 3 1:26:52

Thank you for tuning in. Hey, go support goodwood, go support craftsmen and like people that are doing good work in the golf community and on, like sick man, worry about the people that support you. We support the people that support us. So go check these brands out. Man. Goodwood, I love my butter. It's so sick. Go get something handcrafted made for you. We'll catch you next time. So sick to have you on. Goodwood dave, you're the man. Hopefully we get to play golf at some point until next week. We will catch you later. We'll see you next time, thank you.