The Chasing Daylight Podcast
Four amateur golfers in Las Vegas talk weekly about the game. This show is for the obsessed golf fan who likes to nerd out on the game's different topics. Look for interviews from insiders within the industry and banter from their opinions on golf's current state. And discussions about headline topics like the Major tournaments and the hot new clubs hitting the shelves. Real talk from real people who play the game.
The Chasing Daylight Podcast
338: Bernerd Garsen from Garsen Grips
Bernerd Garsen's journey to becoming one of golf's most innovative grip designers reads like a Hollywood script. After racing motocross professionally and suffering career-ending injuries, a chance encounter led him to an eight-year modeling career across Europe and South Africa. It was during this time that his passion for golf reignited, eventually leading him to create Garsen Grips – a company now boasting over 85 professional tour wins, including Olympic gold, silver, and bronze medals.
The creation of his first grip came from pure necessity while working as a golf instructor. Noticing how students struggled with conventional grips when attempting to position their hands properly, Garsen cut apart three existing grips and glued them together with shoe glue to create his first prototype. This DIY approach led to his patented Edge Grip design, featuring edges for optimal thumb placement that puts the hands in a more neutral position.
What truly sets Garsen apart in the equipment industry is his commitment to performance over marketing hype. Unlike larger competitors who pay players, coaches, and even offer luxury watches as incentives, Garsen has earned every one of his tour wins organically. Players like Henrik Stenson (British Open), Tony Finau, and Lydia Ko (Olympic gold) choose his grips purely for performance. This authenticity hasn't come without challenges – Bernerd candidly describes competitors attempting to copy his designs, spreading rumors about his company failing, and even trying to interfere with his manufacturing relationships.
The market has validated his approach. Beyond his impressive tour statistics, Garsen now partners with major manufacturers and boutique putter companies for custom co-branded grips. His technical innovations have expanded from the original Edge Grip to the popular Max Grip, Quad Tour, and specialized designs explicitly created for top players like Lydia Ko's custom 15-inch Quad that helped her win three consecutive tournaments.
Bernerd's story is one of perseverance, innovation, and staying true to his belief that genuine performance trumps marketing dollars. For anyone looking to improve their putting through technology that actually works rather than just looks different, Garsen Grips represents what's possible when passion meets purpose in the golf equipment world.
Website: https://garsengolf.com/
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Special thank goes out to our show sponsors:
🏌️♂️Garsen Grips - https://garsengrips.com
⛳️ The Golf Stop - https://thegolfstop.com/
And also our show supporters:
⛳️ Las Vegas Golf Superstore - https://www.worldwidegolfshops.com/
🏌️♂️ Rohrs Golf Co - https://rohrsgolf.com/
hey everybody. Oh darling, I'm hot today. Let's go while we're young.
Speaker 1:Hey everybody, Thank you so much for joining us for this special interview episode of the Chasing Daylight podcast. We love having guests on, especially guests in the golf space, and today we have Mr Bernard Garson, famously known for Garson Grips. How are you doing this afternoon, sir Matt?
Speaker 2:I'm doing great. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, thanks for joining us. We've been trying to get you on the show for a couple of years now and just you know you're a busy man, You're a busy man. So I want to start. I like starting all the interviews off by giving the people who may not know you or know your story a little bit of background. There's a great page on the Garson website, on the About page, that talks a lot about how you started. I wasn't aware that you were a model.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, 25, 25 years you know.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah for a model. I guess I've heard the comment from model to mobile, you know. Oh, I like that.
Speaker 2:Ever think about when I was back doing modeling, living in europe, that I'd be back involved in the golf business and designing grips is pretty crazy, yeah, yeah well, let everybody know how you got started in the golf space.
Speaker 1:We can fiddle around with the modeling if you want, but what got you into golf and how did that lead to owning a grip company?
Speaker 2:Well, it all probably started back when I was around 10 years old. I started playing golf with my father and next thing, you know, I'm out there, you know, playing with him and all his buddies, and I'm sitting there on a weekly basis. You know what am I doing? Playing golf with all these old men. You know, there's no yoke. I'm not out hanging out my buddies playing golf.
Speaker 2:So I got out of golf at about 14, I got on the motorcycles, I started racing motocross. I raced professionally for a few years and I crashed and pretty banged up myself, pretty good, fracture my skull, messed up, my back broke a few bones and all that. So I kind of like gave up the motocross and I got back into golf and, uh, just kind of playing around, but my swing wasn't as good as it was. So I, you know, ended up going out one night with a few of my buddies. We went into a bar and they were having this contest and I entered the contest and photographer came up to me, said what have you ever thought about, you know, maybe doing some modeling? I'm like, no, this is well you know. Uh, what would you like to? Like, get some pictures done? So I went build a portfolio.
Speaker 2:I went around a couple inches in la when I was living in la and they said well, you know, if you're gonna get started, you gotta go to europe. So I packed my bags and I went to barcelona. I was there for for a week and actually tore all my ligaments and my ankle in a fashion show, believe it or not. I didn't want to get into that story. Motocross, the runway crash, right. So I went back back home and for the year following year, I moved back to Europe. I was there pretty close to eight years traveling throughout Europe Italy, germany, france, greece, spain live in South Africa for a year. And yeah, so while I was living in Europe Italy, germany, france, greece, spain lived in South Africa for a year.
Speaker 2:And yeah so while I was living in Europe, a friend of mine was a tennis instructor at one of the high-end golf clubs in Masiabac in Barcelona. So he says oh, you know what? There's a golf course out here. You want to teach me how to play golf? You can play golf for free. And I'm like sure, sure, why not? So I took the game up again and started playing. And it was, you know, it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:And I moved back to miami in 95. Um started modeling there and doing a lot of cruise line work and just a lot of commercial work. So then, after uh, 9, 11, the industry kind of died. So I went to work out at dural. Within six months I was running all the golf outside operations. So I was in charge of the golf and think well, I'm out here, I might as well start playing golf again for a while. So I started playing golf and and, uh, you know, that was just kind of like you know, a daily, weekly thing to hit golf balls. We'll play golf once or twice. And that was it.
Speaker 2:So then there was a group of uh, not a group, but a production company I'm doing infomercial, jim mcclain. So I stopped by to talk to him. They told jim well, we know this guy, he can obviously speak on camera. Why don't you have him get in your commercial? Jim says, well, I know you, but can you hit a golf ball? I said, yeah, I can hit a golf ball. So so we did the infomercial and then after that, jim's like you know you can get it around pretty good. What are you doing working out here? He said how old are you? And at the time I was in my mid-40s. He was well, what's your story? And I told him the whole thing. He goes well, what about the Champions Tour? So I thought about it.
Speaker 2:And then, a couple years later, at the time my wife designed a line of acrylic furniture for robin stuckey, which is a big furniture store in florida. I started doing all their tv commercials and their catalog work and everything else and I got to talk to the owner about, you know, champions tour and we talked about possibly doing a, a sponsorship deal where he was going to pay me to stop working and just play golf to have a chance for the pga tour of the champion store, which we did do. And then, uh, three days before my last day at work, a battery charger fell on my head in the cart bar, oh no. So that put me back in the you know four herniated disc in my neck concussion. I went through two years pain management for epidural shots, physical therapy, so golf game kind of went to shit, basically, you know.
Speaker 2:So after that I became an instructor, I started teaching golf, became an assistant pro, and as a kid I always putted differently, I always putted my hands more open on the side of the putting grip. So I was incorporating that and teaching people. Like I understand what you're talking about, but it really doesn't feel comfortable because there's not a perfect place to rest my thumbs, like the flat spot, yeah. So I went home one night and I cut apart three grips and glued them together with shoe glue and that's how I came up with the first edition of the edge grip with the two edges on the side where your thumbs were on each side. So I was, I glued that.
Speaker 2:Take that to a putter shaft and I was trying to show that, incorporate that with teaching people like man, this is great, where can I get one? I'm like, wow, this is the only prototype that is out there. So I found an investor. Uh, and before you know it was on a plane went to china and within the first year I went through five factories trying to produce my product. Um, every every factory that I meant that I sent the grip to was sending out another factory and the same factory was manufacturing the grip every time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that really wasn't the hard part.
Speaker 2:I ended up working out the production end of it. So then, after getting that, you know, trying to get this approved by the USGA, I went through seven submissions to get my first grip approved, which took two hours.
Speaker 2:Seven. And it's not like they tell you each time, oh, this has to be done, it has to be done. They don't tell you everything at once. It's like, well, this isn't conforming because of this, this isn't conforming because of that. There's always just something a little, very small, and I think the most interesting about it was because it was something so different.
Speaker 2:In the beginning I think they really didn't know what they were looking at. So after the seventh submission I finally called Carter Rich and said, hey, listen, what's going on? Are you ever going to approve this or are you just jerking off? Every time I had to get it resubmitted, I had to do tooling, new molding. It wasn't just something that could be done easily. It was a big cost process to go through all that. But I ended up, you know, persevering through all that and I got my grip finally approved.
Speaker 2:And then, next thing, you know I'm out on tour, took the grip out on tour, which was another chore getting out on tour you can't just pack your bags and go stand on the punting ring. There's all the politics of getting on tour as well. You know you've got to have a player using your grip. But if you don't have a if you don't not on tour. How can you get a player unless you know somebody?
Speaker 2:So I was fortunate enough to know Fulton Alum's daughter and she got it in her father's hands. So he was using it on the champions tour when he was playing. So I was able to get him to sign an affidavit that he would put the grip in place. So that got me rights to get a credential out on tour. But once you get a credential it doesn't mean you stay out on tour either. You have to have so much appearance on the Daryl Survey, which is a company that goes out there every week and they mark what is in the players' bags all the equipment, from the irons to the drivers, the shafts to the grips and all that, and that's a whole process as well.
Speaker 1:What's the percentage on the Daryl that you have to have?
Speaker 2:The percent here have played your product in play. But as of now I have over 85 woods on tour, so it's not that bad. But they also incorporate that with all the tours, the pga and then, um, you know the ironic thing about it when I first got on tour, the edge grip was a little skinny grip. Next, you know, super strokes coming out and then it was the fat grip stage.
Speaker 2:You know so then I had to now go back to drawing board and come up with my next grip, which was the fat grip, which was the max grip. Yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1:So what is now like the quad tour? The main one Is that basically your original design that you just changed over the years.
Speaker 2:Well, basically the funny thing about that see, all my grips designs came from just like I would take other grips and I was out on my balcony shaving grips down, grinding grips down. I bought a grinder getting rubber all over the balcony.
Speaker 1:At the time my wife's like what are you doing out here?
Speaker 2:You're making a big old mess and I'm like, well, you know as a kid I grew up having a little workshop downstairs in the house. I was always doing my, you know, coming up with many things and doing things, and I enjoyed it. So the QuadGrip now is probably the main leading selling grip, but the Max to me it all goes back to the technology and the Max and the EdgeGrip. Because basically what the grips are doing you know for yourself by getting your hands on the side, it's putting your body in a more neutral position, which is getting doubles into your body, sending your shoulders back into proper position. So when I got out on tour, you know there's a lot of coaches that are really big believers in the technology of the max grip Mike Shannon, mike Bender, pete Cowan he uses the edge grip as a training aid for wedges with his players.
Speaker 2:Phil Kenyon you know he's taught a lot of the main players out there and so basically, being out on tour, there are a lot of guys, like the first time JB Holmes picked up my grip, he threw it back and he says what the hell is this thing? He goes. Is it on the putter wrong or what? I said well, what are you talking about? He? I said well, what are you talking about he goes. It feels weird. I said well, let me ask you a question, jb. I said how well has your putting been lately?
Speaker 1:And he goes well you got me there right.
Speaker 2:So at the time there was a coach out on the putting green that had a sand lab set up there and he was giving the guys their stats. So I said, go over and have your stats checked. And his caddy came back. He says can we have the head cover that putter? He goes jb, stats have never been that good. You know. A little visit. No, jb pretty much put me on the map, winning three times with the edge grip and then, after you, within stinson, went to the british open really acknowledged the fact that garson was a legit company I didn't realize that had had that on
Speaker 2:his. So a lot of it was. You know guys saying, listen, I understand the technology, but I'm too traditional. I can't get into this position, which basically it doesn't take that long to really get your body to adapt to something. If you give it time, Like literally, if you pick up a Max grip and you putt with it within for 20 minutes, your body will. Of course, in the beginning it feels strange because we were all taught how to putt one wing Yep Right down the middle. Nobody said that was right or wrong. That's how we were all taught.
Speaker 2:But you know, look at all the swing changes now in golf. I mean everything. There's so much technology based with everything and it can all be proven with the technology that's out there how much better things are for you. So, having all the data and all the breakdown of the design of my grips, I know that I have the. It's just that, being a one-man band and doing this all on my own, I don't have the resources that some of these beer companies have to do all the marketing, promotion and pay off players to be out there in my grip. Pay players for wins, give them Rolex watches because they're winning with the grip, paying off coaches to keep them in a grip. Uh, pay players for wins, you know, give them rolex watches because they're winning with the grip. Paying up coaches to keep them in a grip, I mean, there's, yeah, the politics out on tour. It's you know, there's a lot more that goes involved than just being out on tour. You get, you deal with so much out there.
Speaker 1:It's unbelievable have you ever been approached by some of the bigger brands and been basically like get the hell out of here?
Speaker 2:well, it's kind of, in a way, I I know that I have been sabotaged by, sabotaged by companies putting grips, my grips, on on product to kind of make my grip look bad by putting it on crooked, not putting enough tape on the grip to make it move. There's, there's so much going on. I don't want to mention names, or of course not, yeah, of course not. But then, but it is good to know that you know, I'm also now doing co-branding for some of the top manufacturers out there, the top brands out there, um, so it's that's good to know that they're believers in my technology yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So I mean right now, you know I probably have not just the top brands, but I mean constantly now a lot of these new smaller boutique putter companies are reaching out to me, for, you know, custom branding grips, which is which is a lot of fun to get involved.
Speaker 1:The coggins stuff is amazing. Oh yeah, his grips are great.
Speaker 2:I love his design yeah, it's so good. Just in the last month, we probably uh aligned ourselves with six more brands out there to uh get more marketing going on the custom branding, and just constantly now it's getting bigger and bigger. But the best thing about it, too, is like we're not asking for a major amount of quantity. Yeah, I've got it set up where, if you want to do a custom grip, you can do your own custom branding, for, you know, only 100 grips. That's amazing. I've asked for thousands.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that really helps those smaller brands. Oh right, yeah, have you talked with Dave Frisch from Goodwood? We're big fans of the Goodwood putters around here.
Speaker 2:We did reach out together. I know he was really interested in my tpe grip, the rubber grip, um. But see, like, like the rubber grip, you'd have to do a whole new tooling, holding, molding just to change the logo. It's not the same, it's just being able to do a 200 deal, art, art, layouts that you produce in a grip and the price point on doing a new mold is a couple thousand dollars just to get started. So it's kind of like that's kind of deterring for, you know, deters people from wanting to go in that direction. That's what I'm saying. With what we're doing with the lower quantities, it really helps, right, yeah yeah, yeah it's.
Speaker 1:It's nice seeing more and more pop up, uh, on the on the boutique side of it. But let's talk about the tour wins. But let's talk about the tour wins. You said you have 85 tour wins. Now Over 85, right, yeah. And Lydia Ko, would you say she's been your most loyal. Is that the right word?
Speaker 2:Loyal, I would say. Henrik Stenson is still in my grip even though he's on the lift tour. He's won the first major with the British Open and that really put Garson on the map. Let people know that this company was for real and really got me a lot of recognition and accountability and appreciation out on tour, where I was respected a lot more. Tony Finau every one of his wins are in my grip. He's been doing well with me. I'm really excited to do the Tony Finau Foundation process where portions of sales go to his foundation. And Lydia Ko, not only being loyal, she's been probably the most prominent lately after winning the gold medal with the Quad 15 that I designed just for her and then, after winning that, she won two tournaments in a row. So she won three tournaments in a row. When she got back into my grip because the putter brand that she was using got her out of my original, out of the original quad tour, got her into the longer grip which you know, and she contacted me and says well, do you have a?
Speaker 2:longer grip and I'm like I do now. I do, I do. But the one I had, the 17-inch grip, was too heavy for her because she's very particular on her weight. So I went and met with her at the Onica tournament last year and we developed the 15-inch grip. I cut apart a few grips, made her a 15, a 17, and we settled on the 15 inch quad tour and now I'm in the process of redesigning another 15 inch grip for her, another quad, the quad pistol design, which is a little little narrower in profile. So such, I'm always standing in her grip. She's always tinkering like this. I've got, uh, three different companies reached out for me for her grip because she's going through another. Different companies reached out for me for her grip because she's going through another putter, experimenting again. So, yeah, pros man, that is great, because it's always like, hey, can you send me some grips and overnight them please? I'm like, oh sure, don't worry about it, and it cost me 125 bucks with fedex I'll get.
Speaker 2:I'll get them to you it'll be nice you send me your fedex account, but count, but what am I?
Speaker 1:yeah, oh, that's funny. And so who on? Well, let's say this what, what tour represents right now your most players?
Speaker 2:uh, the corn fairy tour right now. Um, I have quite a few guys out there, which is always a good stepping point. It's like you know, at one point in time I had over 22 guys on the corn fairy tour. Um, you know so, and and honestly, for me, I travel all the tours on my own. So I go from the pga tour, the corn fairy tour, lpga tour and it's kind of tough because not being out on every tour, like I say, like some of these other brands that have reps on every company, on every tour, they have visibility on every tour. Every time, like if I leave the tour for a couple weeks, it's almost like out of sight, out of mind.
Speaker 2:Some of the other brands will attack my players and say, hey, you know, garcia's never coming out here again. We heard the company's folding. You should get yourself into this grip, that grip, and then it's kind of like oh yeah, you know. So it's been a battle, but you know it's been a battle that I'm still pursuing and not going to quit, because I, you know, the company is just getting bigger and bigger and it's like, you know, the tour wins are proving it and, and the thing about it too, it gives me a lot of satisfaction to know that I'm not just slapping a new name on a product and changing the color scheme and still saying I have a have a new grip. You know it's. It's kind of like.
Speaker 2:The fact is, I know that my grips are, like I said, all technology-based and I can prove it. I'm not just designing a grip just to put my name on it and get it out there. I go through a process of every time I design a grip, I work with some coaches, I get all the data to prove that it's working. I take feedback from players as well. That's like all the R&D out there. I'm asked what would you like to help me design this grip? Like you know, when the Max 15 grip first came out, that was designed for Tony Fina, which was his first win at the Puerto Rico Open. Because his hands were so big, his hands were falling off the bottom part of the original Max grip and then from the Max grip went to the ultimate grip, which was his, which was designed for him, and now recently just launched the ultimate 17, which has become a really big seller, with a lot of people that are in the lab putters. Which thanks. Then congrats to sam for just selling his company for 200 million.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that would be nice you know right I mean, come on now, I remember meeting sam when he first got out on tour and you see, you know, yeah, it's an uphill battle, man, because I tell you, I mean I can't tell you how many companies I've seen come out there and try and launch a product on tour, especially in the putter business, the putter side of it, I mean that is very, very, very tough to even try. It's not easy. It's not easy to get a player in a putter out on tour. No, no, there's no limited, a limited amount of guys, because you know you're talking about the companies in line with um, you know, with other companies too, they will also promote certain brands, like shaft companies promote certain brands to their players for their, for their oem market uh products and it's, you know, a lot of it goes as well as, like putter brands come out there and it's like, if you're under a contract with somebody, nine, more than nine times out of ten, you're using their putter too. So, basically, the only companies that aren't really pushing use a putter are strixon, um and pxg. Yeah, if you're, if you're in the contract with callaway, you're using honesty putter. With titus, you're using a cameron putter. With Titus, you're using a Cameron putter.
Speaker 2:Taylor made a spider, so it's really for me, even though it's a grip, you don't think it's going to be that difficult to be out there. It's pretty difficult too because, as I said, there's, you know, these companies being away with other companies. They're paying players out there to use their grip. They're paying coaches to promote their grip for them. They're giving them bonuses for wins to get a men's and ladies Rolex watch for using your putter grip. You know it's like, hey, I'd love to do that, but it's like kind of like. It kind of baffles me. So I'm thinking, you know, to get a Rolex watch. It's like, dude, you just won over a million friggin dollars. What's more important to you? Something that's going to make your game better or getting a watch? And getting a watch that I heard is fake anyway. So what's the difference?
Speaker 2:Because I mean literally think about this. I mean, everybody knows how difficult it is to get a Rolex watch. You just don't walk in the store and buy a Rolex, no, and you just can't walk in the week on all the tours. How are you going to walk into a rolex store I don't care who your connection is and buy four rolexes?
Speaker 2:yeah, that are personalized for them, and if you're dropping, you know, 50 grand or more a month. That's you know, do the math. You're looking at half a million dollars you're going to be giving away in Rolex watches. I mean, I mean, you got to be shoot yourself in the head for that one. I'd rather have 500, you know, half a million dollars in my pocket than happen to give away a watch to a player because, using my product Right, I believe I'd love to be able to. You know, hey, here's an incentive, here's 10 grand for winning with my grip, something like that One day. Hopefully I do get there.
Speaker 2:But, like I say, it's like if you're going to give away a product, I mean give them a high-end product. From what I know, the watches are like the lowest brand level there is in Rolex and, as I said, it's a men's and ladies' watch too. And it's just kind of weird that how, during COVID, that the company wasn't able to get a hold of these watches and give them out. As far as I know, rolexes are produced in China, they're produced in Switzerland and if you were buying that many watches, you'd be getting directly from the factory, if you ask me.
Speaker 1:That's just my opinion.
Speaker 2:I'm not really putting anything out there saying that this has actually happened, but this is rumors that I've heard out on tours. A lot of people put it together and I find it hard to believe.
Speaker 1:It's crazy, it's crazy.
Speaker 2:Do you think the putter grip market is oversaturated with too many designs? Yeah, in a sense. Um, a lot, a lot of companies now are coming out with yeah, they're just coming out with too much. I mean, the 21 inch grip, the 17 inch grip, this, that um, claw, armlock claw, and it's just kind of like. Not only only is it a putter grip market, the putter manufacturers themselves, I mean. I see, so I mean, on a weekly basis, these companies are coming out with what had been already come out with this week four different designs.
Speaker 1:Well, I work for Callaway. I'm a fitter for Callaway. I do part-time work, right, I'm a club fitter. And when I found out we had 30 SKUs of Odyssey putters this year, I was like wow, and that's what you see.
Speaker 2:You don't see all the new stuff that is out on tour that they're trying to promote, oh yeah, Right, yeah, On a weekly basis as well. It's, it's, it's insane, it's just. It baffles me. That's why I'm saying it's like how they push their product out there to players. It's like let a player play with what he wants to, but I see it out there so much that they're just constantly pushing these new products on these guys. It's like, you know, and I feel that the guys that are more successful are guys that haven't really changed, that stay with what they've been in for so long.
Speaker 2:And I think when you get a guy that's in that routine of constantly changing it's, he's not going to go anywhere. I mean, granted, there is lightning in a bottle. I had Brandon Steele put my grip and play the first week and went out and won with it. You know, and I just look at some of these guys and I say to myself, first of all, if you're going to make any type of change, working with Mike Shannon, he says you've got to give yourself six weeks. Absolutely, You've got to see, you've got to take the good and the bad, but you've got to give. You've got to put yourself six week commitment into it and take a look at well, is this benefiting me or not? And if not, then you make a change.
Speaker 2:But you're not going to make a change and just go out and play four rounds of golf in it and expect it to be. You know, know that it's any better or not, Because you know, we both know, good players have bad days, you know, and whether it's off the tee, whether it's, you know their irons, whether it's with putting chipping, there's nobody that's been out there. I mean Randolph for Tigers, as perfect he was there and he did for so long. I don't think we're ever going to see anybody else win seven tournaments in a row. That'll never happen in a lifetime. But I mean look at the dedication he had and he never switched.
Speaker 2:Ever, no, I mean, I think he's probably still using the same player. You know they play with the same grip style. Everything's the same, he's not.
Speaker 1:He had that Nike phase, but those things were so closely resembled to what he was playing with anyways.
Speaker 2:Well, things were so closely resembled to what I was playing with anyways, so well, even though there was the Nike phase that they were, they were blueprints of what?
Speaker 1:he was playing with. When he was playing, he just had the Nike brand on it.
Speaker 2:He just had a logo on it Right and that, and that's basically what's going on out there now with all these companies.
Speaker 2:They're all just copying each other when it comes to putter manufacturing there, like with the no torque putters that are out there. It's amazing how actually no torque has been around for oh a long time, long time the battery because you had success with it being very popular with it. Now everybody wants to try and get back into it. I mean um, which you know in a sense to me. I do say more power to Lab for what they've created. I do think out of the no Torque brands it is probably one of the most intricate putters of them all because of all the weighting, the Premier weighting and everything else. That really makes a big difference compared to how balanced it out is. I had a great conversation yesterday with Liam who works with Lab. He's with TourRep out there and also runs the tour department in the office. We had a great talk about this and he goes. You know we're really happy that all these companies have been copying us. It's just given us more recognition because it just proves to us how good our product is and I'll be honest with you, there's been companies out there that have gotten close to my designs. And that's the problem with the design of a putter grip. You have a design patent, one little change here and there. You know it can change the design a bit, but they can't get exact.
Speaker 2:I actually had one putter grip company. I noticed that they bought one of every grip off my website. I saw by the email. So I uh emailed him and I said hey, listen, I said I noticed you bought one of all my grips off the website. You should have contacted me. I'd have been more happy to give you you know the tour tour discount or just you know the pud pricing. Um, he's well, no, no, no. I just really want to support your company. I'm really happy to see how successful you are. I wanted to reach out and buy some goods. I'm like, oh really, are you sure you're not trying to knock me off? Lol. He goes oh, no, no, no, I'd never do that. But sure enough, a couple months later one of their brands came out which was really, really close to mine. But there's another company too that tried to contact me, told me I was infringing on his patents. I'm like, buddy, my grips are all patented. How am I infringing? Why don't you contact the patent department and why are you contacting me?
Speaker 2:yeah yeah, so it's like I've gone through so many battles. You know companies calling my manufacturer in China that I was producing my grips with the company at the same time as they were, and they tried to tell the company they couldn't produce my grips because I was infringed on their patents. And you know, my patent attorney had to send a letter. Well, if you would have done your homework, you'd notice right away that we are not infringing, we are patented. There is no infringement here. But next time, if you have any issues, reach out to us. Don't try and threaten the company, the manufacturer in china. It's like you know and they were burning, burning.
Speaker 2:We can't make your grips anymore. You know we got a letter from x, x, y and z selling saying you know you're infringing on their patents. We don't want to get so wrong yeah, no, I know, but I mean I literally had a coach call me recently said so, bernie, what's your incentive to get golfers in your grip?
Speaker 2:I said said my incentive is it's going to make them a better putter, it's the sticks that prove it, the technology I have. If the player commits to it, it'll, in time, make them a better putter, he goes well. You know, I got this brand. They're paying me X amount of dollars to promote their grips and they're doing this and that for players and I said, well, listen, I have X amount of total wins. I've never played a player, I've never had to pay a coach, and I think that speaks for itself, absolutely. It does. You know. I mean I don't think there's another putter company out there that can say that they have a gold, silver and bronze in the last three Olympics. You know, I mean that is pretty. You know, I mean that that is pretty and you know that's.
Speaker 2:That's a pretty high achievement that I'm very proud of, absolutely. Yeah, it's. It's pretty neat to see yourself. I remember the first time getting out on tour and say I just want to see one player getting my grip. The next thing you're seeing somebody on TV. Now it's, like you know, on a weekly basis seeing somebody else. I mean, from the percentage of the guys that I have on tour, compared to the bigger brands, when I have a guy out there on tour, that's, you know, in the last group or wins in that week, it's, you know, it's just such a big achievement, um, it's just such a great feeling and the marketing value of that you can't pay for that yeah, oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I mean, I remember the first time I saw lydia ko with a garson grip. I got goosebumps. I'm like, oh wow, that's so awesome, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, not only Lydia, I mean Brooke. You know she's won a major as well with my grip up there and she's doing well for me in Canada. And it's so funny because it was like, you know, Brooke got out of my grip for a while. She's back in it. You know the same thing now. Yeah, she's back in it as well. And I just got a couple of new players in it on the LPGA this week and Carlock Carlock, the same dollar. She's been in my group for a while as well. Top Spanish player.
Speaker 2:And yeah, but it's the same thing out there. If I had my way, honestly I'd probably just stay on the LPGA tour. I mean, the women out there, they're so nice to work with they, please. Thank you, hello. They appreciate things.
Speaker 1:It's a different world because they really have to earn it. It's not handed to them as much as it is to the men. As far as marketing themselves, they really have to put in a lot of work. So anytime they have someone like you that's out there helping them get better, you know they're a lot more respectful for it right.
Speaker 2:Well, the thing is I'm not out on tour to make guys a worse putter. You know I'm not trying to help you. You know, um, and it's like a lot of a lot of it is too is like people don't realize none of the things. So I just didn't design a putter grip. Like each one of my grips are designed for civic style of putter head. You use the way you hold the putter. Um, you know, like you've got a face balanced putter, I recommend a certain grip. If you're left hand low, I recommend a certain grip. If you're traditional, you've got a putter face more toe hang, I recommend a certain. So that's the whole premise of the Larson grips as well. It's not just another putter grip. There is something in every grip that is designed.
Speaker 1:Now are you using Quintec or SAM, or even now, foresight, to get data to help the players? I use all of that Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I used it all. And I tell the players themselves, being out on tours it's really hard to try and work with a player and tell them you know this isn't going to make you better unless you can really prove it. So it's not a whole. I tell them put a grip on a putter, take it back home, go work in the studio with your player. But a lot of it too is guys. I mean, if you don't have that data available, if you put with it for you know five, 10 minutes, you know, you know it feels better or not, yeah, but if you want the true results, the true proof of it, I would challenge anybody to get into a Garsham grip and go get your stats checked. You know and I can get. I can say I will guarantee it because I've got all the data and I've had all. I've had studies done with with you know players, coaches doing studies with my grips compared to other grips, how much better mine perform. I will back my grip 100. I'm telling you it will make you a better putter, just like. Oh, this driver's gonna make you hit it 10 yards further. Why? Because you put a different ski paint scheme on it and call it something new.
Speaker 2:You know, and that's another. You know the whole thing every year, these companies coming out with these new clubs, you know. And then the shaft market. It's just, it's such a crazy market where you know, and you, you and I both, though you go to. You go out one day you feel great, you're hitting the ball like you never believe. The next day you go out it's like what am I doing out here playing golf, yeah, yeah it's uh, it is a wild green the the dirtiness, it's still.
Speaker 1:That still troubles me. How, how, what these other brands that are out there are willing to like sabotage. That is good, great and that you know it's much like the lab validation of people creating zero torque putters companies. Trying to sabotage your company is validation. You know that you're doing something right right.
Speaker 2:no, I know I'm, I'm, you know it used to bug me, um, but now I'm, you know I'm very happy about it because it just proves to me that I'm doing something right. And you know, and it's I'll be honest with you, I'm one of the. You know, I am definitely the smallest brand out there compared to some of these largest OEMs, and to know that I'm, you know, up there in the top three for the amount of grips being used on the PGA Tour is a pretty good satisfaction, pretty good feeling. And you know, I, as I said in the beginning, I got an investor which, within the first six months, bought him out because they were just trying to, like I say, sabotage. I found out they were just trying to, like you know, bring the company down and thought I was going to be able to buy it out and pay off the patents, because, you know, they tried to sue me and, you know, granted, I had to pay back the money they invested and start all over again.
Speaker 2:Had I wished, I would have looked at myself now and done it differently, I would have. But that's, you know, that's what happens To know, now that I started with one grip and now I have 11 different designs and out of the 11, I believe, eight of them, eight of the designs, have won on tour. That's amazing. So I mean it's pretty exciting to know that you know the one of the first times the player puts one of your grips in play, goes out and not only wins but wins a gold medal with your grip as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that I mean the gold medal's special.
Speaker 2:It doesn't happen every year, no, it doesn't happen every year, that's once every four years. You know, yeah, and you know so, having Lydia, lydia's, the gold and the bronze, and Henrik won the silver with the max grip and each one's with a different grip. So it's pretty cool with that too.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So guys that are under contract, do they ever approach you about wanting to change? Or how does that like? If a player is interested but they're under contract, are you allowed to let them tinker? Is there is a rules for that, or?
Speaker 2:putter grips. They're not under contract but it's like it's crazy how, just because you know, like I said, certain companies out there are offering perks to use their putter grip, how that will stick in guys heads.
Speaker 2:And not only that it's like some of the OEMs out there will push another brand more because they're also getting kickbacks to do that. I do know just a lot of other things that happen out there Now. It used to be a lot easier to approach players, but now there's so much more involved. There's a lot more coaches out there like, well, this is not what I believe in. This is what I'm trying to work with him on it. I think this is better for him.
Speaker 2:I actually had a player Caddy, call me on tennis and Bernie, I'm really upset about this, but I quit working for my player because he got out of your grip and the first time he got into your grip he had his best stats and best finish all year. He got his tour card back because of your grip and a few weeks later, um, he was out of my grip, back into one of the competitors only because, well, you know, here's your 500 monthly bonus for using the grip. Here's your incentive. I mean it's crazy to think about what these little incentives do to players out there, but you know what? I guess I guess money talks and I mean it's crazy to think about what these little insanities do to players out there, but you know what? I guess, money talks.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's one of the things that bugs me about Liv is there's no. Golf has always been a game where, if you are good and you are talented and you're charismatic and you go out there and you work hard and you win you earn it.
Speaker 1:No, earn it. No, nobody goes out there and plays like ass and earns it. Uh, you, you have to. You have to win, you have to play, and that's kind of what bugged me about. Live is like, you know, you're taking the the grind away from it and they're you look at those a lot of the live players now that just were amazing golfers three years ago, it's. You know, cameron Smith is a big person that I look at. You know this was the guy that was at the top of his game, right, and the drive to win has just been removed from him.
Speaker 2:In my opinion, well, if they're getting paid, no matter, there's no cut, you know they're. They're out there making money, making a lot of money. Um, I'm curious to see where it's gonna go. You know, we've all been hearing about this going back together, but then, if that happens, I'm I'm just curious to see what's gonna happen. How are you gonna bring back these top players and put them right back in there, the thick of things? Or you've got a guy that's in the top 70 to play in the elevated events and they bring back 10 live guys. So what does that mean?
Speaker 2:By bottom 10 are gone, and I think, if you want them back on the PGA tour, make them go back to Q school. Yep, they have no status on tour. Yep, if you really want it that bad as you're talking about the drive if you really want to get back on the tour, you're not happy with your decision, fine, go prove that you really want to be out here and put the work back in. Yeah, cause I mean, you've got all these young kids out there now that are striving to get on tour and have been putting in the work, and then it's like and, and then it's like and it's getting harder and harder every year, like you know. This is the last, this last week at greensboro was the last monday qualifier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's going to be no more monday qualifiers for guys that you know live in the dream. Go out there, go on a monday qualifier, they get into a tournament and they end up finishing top 10, top 25. They get to play in a couple of events or whatever. That's going, yeah, you know, and so this is going to be really strange to see what's going to happen if it ever does coincide, or where the tours do come back together.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite stories and I've talked about this on the podcast before. But Ryan Moore played at UNLV local guy, so of course, big Rymo fan. But he got a big paycheck from paying. Coming out of college, I mean, he had one of the greatest amateur years ever and he signed a huge contract with paying and he went out there and he said he admitted it that my desire to win was not there because I had the money. I didn't have to go out and earn the money, and so he lost his game and and he came to that realization and then went straight independent. He was playing Adams for a while, um, and just whatever clubs he thought made him play better and he and he got his game back and he solely said it was. You know, I got clouded by money because you know, the desire to have to go out there and earn money for my family was just gone. Right, right, it's a different level.
Speaker 2:It's a different level and you think about live, not only just the money, the bonus they get just for signing. Yeah, I mean it's like, okay, I just got X amount of millions of dollars. It's like I'll go shoot 80 for three days who cares I play golf in shorts. It's a shotgun start I mean I've done it of live events it is.
Speaker 1:It is a whole different atmosphere oh we, the one in vegas we went to just be, I mean because we're golf nerds. You know, I love golf. I don't I'm not a big fan of live, but I'm a golf nut, so I'm gonna go watch golf, no matter where it is yeah, but yeah, it's, it's, it's insane because you know, I know all those guys they're not on tour.
Speaker 2:I've got a number of players out there that have been in my grip of one, in my grip grip out there and it's like you know, and it's like just their level. You can see how they're just so much more laid back out there. It's like you know. And but yeah, start to think about you're saying the money. What John Romkett? 400 million just to join. Think about that. How many people in their lifetime, with their whole family, he could have bought lab twice Right. Right, exactly.
Speaker 1:Hey, so are your grips available in retail.
Speaker 2:Yes they are. We're in all-club champions. We're in a lot of specialty shops. You can go on the GarsonGolfcom and look at our website and it'll tell you where they're available. I mean, I was in PGA Tour super stores but to be honest with you, that's just like being lost. You walk in, there's so much presence from another company and my grips are in a little bin and it's just kind of like you know, and I mean, and I'm on another retail side, I can't tell you how hard and how long I fought to get into the big retail stores too. One brand was paying off. You know people to keep smaller brands or my brand out out of the stores.
Speaker 2:Um, I've I've fought an uphill battle, you know, and I'm really happy right now to work with andrew, who's on board with me, who's like my managing director of the company. I met andrew through um. He was working with another company that was involved with. They were, they were handling all my marketing distribution and that went well for the first year. And then they tried to acquire part of my company and the deal didn't go through because I wasn't going to give up 40% of my company from what they were offering. So they kind of just like let the company go on the wayside. And really, you know it was rough and Andrew's been on board since December. He actually worked for the other company but he was fired through email when our contract ended and I tried to get out of the contract but my attorney's like, well, you know what it's going to cost you more to get out of the contract than just letting it go through for them. But it really put a damper on the recognition of Garson. The social media was crap. You, it really put a damper on the recognition of Garson. The social media was crap. It was like, but they had the contract with social media. So I'm very happy now with my marketing side. Jeff Walker is doing a great job with Andrew. They're doing weekly stuff, weekly promotions, getting a lot of brand recognition out there with a lot of coaches, and I'm seeing a lot more presence now on Instagram People doing some videos themselves showing them changing grips.
Speaker 2:On the way how I change grips, I don't know where I'm cutting out the super, stroking, throwing away. I see people doing this and you know it's like. You know I've been approached. Oh, you shouldn't do this. I'm like, why not? It's a free world. It's like I'm very proud where I'm taking off a putter grip and putting on another putter grip. You know, I mean I've been through so a lot out there with, like I'm saying, with things that I've seen happen to me and things that have happened to me. I have no shame to admit that I have a good product. It's just that, as I said, politics out there, I don't have the resources to put millions of dollars into marketing. If I did, you know, my goal is just to you know, one day be the number one putter grip company out there. And I think if I just continue on the road I'm down, keep doing what I'm doing, it's feasible. I know it is Like I said, I can't think of another individual company out there that has 85 truants, as I mean, I'm actually doing some custom grips for the big company in Japan.
Speaker 2:Right, well, this grip company has given us their grips at this cost. I'm like, yeah, well, that's that grip company. How many truants they have. Yeah, why are you going to pay more for a Garson grip? That's why you have a lot more to go by. Can they claim they won a gold, silver, bronze in the last three Olympics? Do they have 85 tour wins, you know so. No, you have one tour player out on tour that uses your grip and he's actually not even on the tour. He's on the lift tour. Yeah, no, yeah.
Speaker 2:Is the garson semi-truck tour van coming. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's another whole other story. Trying to get a truck out on tour is almost impossible. I mean, I mean, believe me, for what it cost me to be out on tour, you think it might be more feasible to get a truck? I mean between the tours alone. Just just to be out on tour between the Korn Ferry tour and the LPGA tour, the initial cost of me, my credential and everything for the year is close to $15,000. That's dropping that every first year. That's not included. Then the travels throughout the year, the airplanes, the hotels, the rent-a-cars, the meals and all that. That's just to get started.
Speaker 2:That's just to get started that's just to get started that's to have space on trucks for the trucks to carry your bag to.
Speaker 1:You know, be able to work on the trucks right, yeah, wow and for your, so the trucks that you are shooting those videos out of? How? What's is that like a pga? Yeah, that's the wilson tour van.
Speaker 2:The wilson tour van. Okay, I, my bag is carted around every week to week with the Tour van. So when I first started I was carting my bag from tournament to tournament. I was. I didn't have a place to change grips. I was going out back. I used to bring a little bottle of solvent and a razor blade, knife and tape and do it myself until I you know, believe me, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's crazy's crazy so is. Is that a partnership you have with them, or is it just why I pay on the truck, that's, I pay for the space.
Speaker 2:The same thing like the corn ferry tour truck. I pay, you know, a yearly fee to be out there, which gives me they do the same. They park my bag around, I have the rights to work in the truck, I have a drawer for the grips and all that. That's good. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That helps.
Speaker 2:I mean it's like knowing that first, when the first year comes on, there goes 15 grand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, that's crazy. All right, you said something earlier that I wanted to come back to Um you. You said that the the guy at the golf shop or where you worked at the said uh, you, potentially senior tour. How good of a stick were you, uh I was pretty good don't look at him being bashful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's funny because you know I I recently because I had solar surgery a couple years ago. I recently gone back and'm playing. I can get around a little 70 still.
Speaker 1:And that's just playing once every couple weeks.
Speaker 2:You know that's not even like consistently hitting golf balls. All right, you were a stick. We went out a couple weeks ago and I think I shot 400 on the back nine. You know, I had a chance the other day. We were out playing. I was three-ender, coming into six and what do I do? Double bogey, bogey, bogey. You know what I'm saying, you know. But still to shoot, you know, one over par, you know I mean, and I'm 66 years old, you know. But you know a lot more goes into that. You know I still work out. I'm trying to stay in shape. Plate with that. And it's like I said, I used to do it all at one time do the traveling, do all, do all the shipping, do all the receiving. Now, having the warehouse space and having andrew help me out and having, you know we got the uh distribution going and the marketing and and having the grip sent out, it's, it's. It saves a lot.
Speaker 1:But oh, I bet, yeah, I bet.
Speaker 2:That's all I mean I've been known to take money from tour players out there putting. Everybody knows I'm one of the best putters what's it?
Speaker 1:what's in your bag? What, what's, uh, what's the your bag makeup consistent right now my bag makeup consistent.
Speaker 2:Right now I've got taylor made uh drive driver three wood and hybrids. I've got tour proto irons and right now I've got a pretty no torque putter in my bag mallet putter interesting yeah, interesting. I go from putter to putter, but I'll tell you what. It's pretty special. I've got hundreds of putters. I mean I bet, oh yeah, I try them all.
Speaker 1:I get them all right. Yeah, yeah, I'm a putter geek, I I I love playing with different putters. I love different feels. Uh, this goodwood that I got right now though it's the honeymoon phase has lasted a couple months, and so it's not going anywhere anytime soon yeah, I know I've tended to do the same thing.
Speaker 2:It's like, oh, let me try this one this week. But now this one's been in my bag for a while and I feel really comfortable with it and the funniest thing is about it no matter what putter is my bag the original design. The max grip is is my grip of choice is your grip choice yeah I mean, they're all great.
Speaker 2:I mean so the whole philosophy. Now with the quad grip, it's the same technology of the max, but more traditional and the max is the one that has a spine down the middle, right yeah exactly the one that's shaped like that, so it gets your hands open up.
Speaker 2:So basically, the shape of the quad is getting the same position, but with your thumbs on top, like I said, getting your elbows in. And the best thing about the grips is if anybody that knows that, they know that there's no breakdown at impact, like if you get tense with your stroke and squeeze the putter grip. At times the putter is going to go left or right, but with the garson grips the design allows your hands to stay more stable, no matter what grip pressure you put on the grip that's good to know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I, I have a couple of those, the max grips on some putters and, and, uh, my buddy dan, who's on the podcast, his really good putter and I handed it to him one time and he was like, eh, get that out of my hands. I said, yeah, it's not for everybody, but you got to try it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, right. No, it's not for everybody. It feels different in the beginning, but just give it some time.
Speaker 1:What was your thoughts on the Lampkin sell to Super Stroke? Did that catch you by surprise at all?
Speaker 2:I know Superstroke has been trying to get in the swing grip market for a long time. It's hard to even say what the wholesale was about.
Speaker 1:No comment I had my thoughts, but no comment, we'll save face. We'll save face, all right, do you want to get into what you're doing outside of golf?
Speaker 2:No, I'm just getting into a new venture. We can talk. Well, I'm, you know, I'm designing another brand, another getting into a new sport, but I'm kind of taking some of the golf technology that I've learned and putting it into something else that's out there.
Speaker 1:All right, well, I'll tell everybody yeah.
Speaker 2:Stay tuned for that, because we had a conversation.
Speaker 1:Continue to launch to another venture. Yeah, before hopping on. And is it still going to be under Garson name? Probably.
Speaker 2:It'll be something by Garson, whatever Right. Yeah, I like it. I like it Well.
Speaker 1:Bernie, thank you so much for hopping on. I like it. I like it. Well, uh, bernie, thank you so much for hopping on. I've been here. I've been wanting to do this for so long. I'm glad people found out a little bit more about the company, more about you and what you're doing out there. Um, the dirty stuff going on on tour man Larson golfcom.
Speaker 2:Go on, check us out. Um. Any questions, reach out on Instagram. More happy to help you with any decisions. You have any comments, any questions about what style of grip you want for what putter? What is best? Always here to help out.
Speaker 1:Yep, I'll have all the links in the show notes. Uh with uh how to get in touch with them through their website, social media and all that stuff. So, again, bernie, thank you so much for coming on, excited to see what's happening for you in the future, and we're going to keep our eyes on Garson Golf. Got it, man, all right? Thanks a lot. Shout out, all the best, everybody. Thank you Bye.
