356: Zero Torque, AimPoint, and The Truth About Putter Fittings with Preston Combs

In this episode, Matt sits down with "Putting Guru" Preston Combs, owner of Preston’s Putting, for a deep dive into the art and science of rolling the rock. Whether you are a gear junkie obsessed with the latest Zero Torque putters or a player struggling to read greens, this conversation covers it all. Preston debunks the myths about AimPoint, explains how to properly test a putter before buying it, and takes Matt through a live lesson that transforms his setup.

In This Episode, We Cover:

• The Truth About AimPoint: Preston explains why AimPoint is suitable for beginners and high-handicappers, not just pros. He also debunks the myth that AimPoint slows the game, noting that a proper read should take only about 10 to 12 seconds.
• Green Books vs. Feel: While Green Books are great for approach shots, Preston explains why relying on them solely for putting can be tricky due to angle variations
• The "Zero Torque" Debate: Do you actually need a Zero Torque putter? Preston reveals that while they help some, they can hurt players who rely on torque for feel in transition.
• How to Buy a Putter: Don't just grab what's popular. Preston shares a drill that uses a quarter or a dime to test start lines in the store before you drop hundreds of dollars.
• Blade vs. Mallet: Why "cavity back" putters might be hiding your mistakes and why some pros are sticking to blades for better feedback.
• The "Base Stroke" System: Understanding how to regulate stroke size and tempo so you stop guessing how hard to hit the ball
• Matt’s Lesson: Preston diagnoses Matt’s "long follow-through" as a symptom of a short backswing and fixes his setup by adjusting his forward bend to improve structural stability.

Resources Mentioned:

• Preston's Putting: https://www.prestonsputting.com/
• AimPoint: https://aimpointgolf.com/ 
• Vertex Sensor: https://vertex-golf.com/

Quotes from the Show:

• "If you can't control the face on a three-mile-an-hour club head speed swing, it's not the putter." - Matt 
• "I’m a proponent of any tool that allows players to better understand what’s getting ready to happen to their golf ball." - Preston Combs 
• "It looks like you're trying to hit that eight iron 160 yards." - Preston on forcing a putting stroke. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Preston Combs, Putting Coach
• 2:30 AimPoint Explained And Misconceptions
• 7:20 Green Books, Heat Maps, And Trust
• 12:45 Zero Torque Putters: Help Or Hype
• 18:50 Choosing Putter Length The Right Way
• 23:00 Blades vs Mallets And MOI Tradeoffs
• 28:20 Face, Sound, And Speed Control
• 32:40 Grips, Weight, And Hand Fit
• 37:00 Putter Shafts, Stability, And Speed
• 41:40 Why Putting Feels Easy For Some
• 47:10 Confidence, Systems, And The Base Stroke
• 52:00 Live Lesson: Fixing Size And Tempo
• 57:30 Setup Overhaul And Stillness
• 1:02:20 Practice Tools, Data, And Consistency
• 1:07:30 Hovering The Putter And Tour Models
• 1:11:30 Closing Thoughts And Next Steps

Transcript

Matt: 0:24

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the Chasing Daylight Podcast. I got a special guest with me today, Preston Combs. How you doing? Great. How are you, man? I I just had a putting lesson. I'm geeked right now. I love the sound of that. Oh man. So Preston, uh, you are known as a putting guru. I'm calling you a putting guru. Uh, for those that are listening in right now that have no idea who you are, we have a lot of new listeners that are new to the game. Uh explain. Give us your bio. Let's uh tell us who you are.

Preston: 0:59

Yeah, uh Preston Combs, owner of Preston's Putting, based out of Orlando, Florida. And gosh, I was an assistant golf pro getting into teaching, and then teaching turned into a full-time teaching position, but really always had a passion for putting and wanting to understand why I was a good putter and not just be the failed player that said, here's how I do things. And I genuinely believe there's enough of that going on in the coaching world where I felt like everybody that came to see me is owed a better explanation for how their stroke can work and how can we build that for them. And gosh, over 10 years ago, started taking that deep dive into it, beginning by learning Aimpoint Express and then getting certified in Aimpoint, and then buying my own Sam Putt Lab, thinking, well, if I can teach somebody where to hit it, I'll buy some technology to show them how to hit it there more often. And I distinctly remember after the first night of having that technology, that I started probably around 7 or 8 p.m. and the sun was coming up, and I was still pouring through data reports asking, asking myself more questions. And that is where the journey began. And over the years, I've been really fortunate to have great teaching opportunities that have taken me all over the country to have an opportunity to build Preston's putting and focus solely on lessons where the club head doesn't go above the kneecaps.

Speaker 3: 2:19

For some people.

Preston: 2:20

That's the theory. Listen, if it goes above the kneecaps, use the wedge. Yeah.

Matt: 2:24

And it's not my job at that point. Uh we'll we'll have some videos to share about my swing before and after. My follow swing was real close to the kneecaps. You were getting there. I was I was getting there. Um, you said aim point. Uh, are you a proponent of aim point?

Preston: 2:40

I'm a proponent of any tool that allows players to better understand what's getting ready to happen to their golf ball before they hit the putt. Uh, yes, I'm aimpoint certified. Tour read is another popular option out there for players. But for me, I've found that aim point, when used effectively, has really been able to help players quantify how much is their ball going to break and how to adapt to different conditions without it being heavily math-based and still rooted in a in a very, very good amount of science that says this is reliable. This is something that the best players in the world, number one ranked players in the world, have trusted for years and incorporate into their own game.

Matt: 3:23

Is there a level of play where aim point is not effective? Like a beginning golfer. Uh, would you recommend them taking an aim point class?

Preston: 3:34

Or I think a beginning golfer should absolutely do that because I would rather that player that's new to the game, the 25-35 handicap that's just getting started, to start with a good foundation. And really a fundamental component of pumping. Well, I have to read it. I have to figure out which way it is going and how much. And this provides a pathway to doing that where the barriers to entry are very low too. If I can understand what is ton of slope, no slope, and medium slope, or for those that have any point experience, my four, zero and two percenters, that might be the extent of what you need to know in order to be functional. Should somebody learn ones and threes at some point? Yes, but I think for anyone that has said, I have a tough time calibrating my feels for slope. Well, if you understood what four, zero and two were, you at then at that point could stand on a slope and go, okay, I feel something, but it's not two. Well, must be one. Must be one. I felt something, but it wasn't quite two. That should be easy. I stand in a spot, it feels like a little bit more than two, but I'm not falling over like a four. That would be great. So looking at something like that, I think it's just a great opportunity for that new player to have their foundation, have their framework of here's what that ball's getting ready to do, and have a lot less frustration and headaches.

Matt: 4:50

Okay, so do shoes matter in aim point? Because I've heard I'm I don't use aim point because I'm I for me, too much math. Too much math. I just I want to, of course, I want to be able to read the greens better, everybody does. Um, but I've never really fully dive dove into aim point. Um, but I've heard people say uh if you're wearing shoes that have you know a high rise in them, then you're really not feeling the green as intended purpose, or that you have to wear the same shoes every round if you're gonna use it. Is that true?

Preston: 5:27

There's there's a lot of thoughts and schools of thought about that for my own coaching. The shoes can matter for how well you're able to feel the surface, but I think one of the limitations, as great as it was to have a cool marketing tool that says use your feet to read greens, is that I find that a lot of players use their whole body in some capacity. So when they're standing in a slope, maybe interacting with that slope with a gentle sway from side to side, being able to identify, say I feel pressure in a knee, a hip, a side of my body feels lower, and really pull that away from just that single point in the body and saying it just has to be using your feet to read greens, really was helpful for the communication aspect. I will tell you if I had uh as I travel around doing schools, I had one player with uh neuropathy, can't feel the bottom of his feet, looks at me and says, What am I supposed to do? I said, Well, don't worry about it because we use our body. It's just a great way to communicate and certainly gain somebody's attention when you say you can use your feet to read greens, not your eyes. Yeah, you can if you're standing on a slope and you're you can feel your no wind. Exactly. Um, as far as the shoes themselves, so for my better players that are earning a paycheck based on whether or not we decide if this is a two or a one percent, we're going to want a shoe that allows us to feel the slope the best. Um, but that's just trial and error for the and really, if we are under a contract where I can only wear a certain brand, okay, let's find the model within that brand that allows us to do that best.

Matt: 6:56

So as the golfing world has become more aware of swing point, they're starting to see it more on TV because professionals are doing it on tour. You know, Adam Scott's known for the fingers and everything. Um, do you think it's fair, the criticism that aimpoint has gotten for it slowing the game down?

Preston: 7:14

Uh, entirely unfair. I think there is, we'll go with a couple of instances. Just for the overall use of aimpoint, um, it is a question that comes up in my schools all the time. Is this going to make me take five hours to play a round of golf? For anybody that's using aim point, the vast majority of the time, if you're reading a putt, you're doing that while somebody's chipping onto the green. So standing in the couple of points along the length of the putt, which really should only be two spots, and identifying those slope numbers takes about 10 to 12 seconds to do. And then at that point, walking back to your golf ball and holding up fingers, the vast majority of that is happening while somebody else is putting or chipping onto the green. I think where aim point gets a bad rap is when players use it incorrectly. They go to a spot, they stand on the surface, and they camp out for 10 seconds trying to identify the slope number. And then they do that three or four times along the length of their 12-foot putt. When the reality is, when you're feeling slope, your first instinct is your best instinct. The longer you stand there, your body's going to find equilibrium. Everything's going to level out. So really, the longer you stand there, you're actually making it worse. So if we just stick to the plan of you're in this spot about two seconds, recognize a slope number, and then move on to the next spot, the process is very efficient. And that's not to say that if you don't identify the slope number or feel comfortable with the number you identified the first time, then you can't go back and check it again.

Speaker 1: 8:42

Yeah.

Preston: 8:43

You could check both spots twice, and I'm still running a total of eight seconds there versus the player that's using it incorrectly and is 10, 12 seconds in any single spot.

unknown: 8:53

Yeah.

Preston: 8:54

So I think so. I think there is the there would be the difference between am I using actually using aim point or am I using some hybrid of aim point that is in fact making my job harder?

Speaker 1: 9:05

Thanks. Um puttbooks, the green books. Yes.

Preston: 9:10

Uh good tool.

Matt: 9:12

Waste of time.

Preston: 9:14

Good tool, I think more for the approach shots and the green side shots, and really understanding what your ball's going to do once it lands on the surface. Uh, if you have ever looked at a green book, lots of numbers with the arrows, and those numbers are showing us what is the steepest slope in that in that direction in that section of the green. But now your ball isn't necessarily putting at 90 degrees to that slope. So I can't just look at my look at the book and go, oh, they're all twos pointing in this direction, let's say left to right on this section, and assume the putt is going to be breaking like a two. If I'm a little bit, if I'm putting more up the hill, it's going to play like a little less than two. If I'm putting down the hill, it might play a little bit more than that. So overall awareness, yes. Would I solely depend on those to decide how much my putt's going to break? Probably not. Okay. What about like the is the heat map a better version than slope number? I think both, I think both are good versions. They'll share the same message, but in any case, I still would want to identify how this slope is playing between my ball and the cup. And something like aimpoint allows me to actively engage with that middle section of the putt that is really determining how much the ball's going to break.

Matt: 10:25

We have a course here in town for Las Vegas National, and I putt horribly there. And just I don't know what it is about the course. I just cannot ever make putts there. Well, it's because you haven't taken your dive into aimpoint yet. Right, right. Uh so I have I have a green book from there, and it was more frustrating with the book. Well, it's frustrating about it. Now I'm curious from player side. Because you because what I always do when I when I have a green book is I'll I'll make the read without it. And then I'll look and see what the book says to either verify or go, hey, maybe you need to look at this. Um and so I would see something, I'm like, okay. And then I look at the book, I'm like, well, it's saying this in the book. Okay, well, I thought horrible here. Let's go with what the book says, and then it's a bad thought.

Preston: 11:14

It's it's interpreting the information that I think is the hardest part. And again, I'm looking for players to have a path of least resistance. Here are easy steps that allow us to get more right than raw. And very fitting that we're in Las Vegas for all of this, because the book says, hey, if the dealer's showing eight, you should probably take a hit here. And just if we stick with that plan, eventually, well, we're going to win more than we lose in that scenario. Yeah. And I think we need to take that same mindset to green reading that I might not nail the slope number perfectly. My best players, they probably get about 90% of their reads correct. And if they miss on one, they pick the bigger number instead of the lower number to ensure that the ball's breaking towards the cup. Nothing bad happens, and we move on to the next hole. And I really feel that if we had strategies like that in place for our game, we can start seeing results improve. Versus, I'm going to use the book on this one, I'm going to use aim point on this one. I miss both putts anyway on the last two holes. So I'm just going to eyeball it on the third hole and hope for the best. And I think there's just that a certain lack of commitment to systems when somebody has seen or has learned something new, where we need time to incorporate some of these things. There are no silver bullets in this game, as we just found out on the putting green outside. And I think it's a great, it'd be really great if people just gave things a fair shake, a fair opportunity, and outlet for them to ask questions. If, hey, if I'm struggling with this, and that's like an active part of my putting schools, like they get the aim point information, but then there's also a little community of everybody that's taken those where if they have a follow-up question, they can ask the question and they'll get an answer from me.

Matt: 12:53

Love it. Love it. All right. So let's let's get into um putter stuff. Uh I got down here zero torque. What is because you I'm sure you've had people come to you that are playing zero torque fighters, um, and you have a lot of people because you've been doing this for a while that don't have zero torque putters. Um, are you seeing any benefits and players' improvements having them switch to or having have they gone to a zero torque? Did that make sense? Let me try that again. Have you seen any players benefit from going to a zero torque putter? I've seen some players benefit and I've seen some players get worse. There's the there's the coach's answer.

Preston: 13:40

I know. I would love to say here there's one putter to rule them all, but that gets very close to the one ring, and yeah, we want to avoid that. Uh no, I think it's really finding what works for the player and recognizing what are our available options for anybody that's struggling with their putting. Could a zero torque putter help? Maybe we're not going to know, but I think what we've seen is a run of players that are struggling with their putting that are willing to try anything in order to fix it when the reality might be say I need to assess my setup. You're a prime example. Have you gone through this today of, hey, I've got a few putters sitting around, but maybe I can't really make that decision on the putter until I have some basic structure in place. Hey, this basic structure really improved my ability to move and move the putter. Do I necessarily need a new putter? Uh, a story from when I was working out in California, I made it a point to remove the putter fitting option from the portfolio of things people could book. Because at the end of the day, you know how some fittings go where, oh, the fitting's a little less than the one-hour lesson rate because oh, you might be buying a putter, so we'll discount that for you. Well, it turns out all my putter fittings were tuning up people's setup and how they're holding the putter. And more than half the time, I get a blank stare back of, do I need new putter? And me being the wonderful businessman, I am, no, you don't need new putter. You're actually this one's great. I mean, if you want one, we can look at one. So, really, it's that battle that you face, and it's why when anybody goes to my website, there is no putter fitting option. Nobody comes in with a perfectly built setup and a perfectly built stroke pattern to for me to confidently say we can just change the putter and change the result. Full swing, very different. You can change the head, the shaft, the loft, the CG, and you're a fitter. 15-yard cuts turn into five-yard draws, and the player didn't do anything differently. Yeah. And I don't get that luxury on the putting front. The strokes are small, we have very low speeds that demands a high level of precision. And I just while a different putter may help somebody, I don't feel we're going to solve a three-left path with a two-open face by just by taking somebody and putting them into a zero torque putter or a mallet putter or whatever different putter they have than their current gamer. So I think it's a more complete approach that's required in order to answer that question. Will it help somebody?

Matt: 16:08

How much do you see, or how much do you believe that you have to enjoy what you're putting with?

Preston: 16:16

I think we absolutely need to like what we're looking at. If somebody says, I just can't look at this, even if the data is great, that's not going to be the one we settle on. Because for a lot, for a good chunk of the players I'm working with, this putt is to win a tournament, this putt is for to get to the next stage of Q school. I don't want somebody over that seven-footer going, I hate the way this looks, but I've got to hit it anyway because somebody said the data's better.

Speaker 1: 16:40

Yeah.

Preston: 16:40

There is that intangible component of this has to feel good, this has to look good. And that certainly matters in the overall, in the overall performance.

Matt: 16:50

But as golfers, as being mental head cases. Uh, what what's your plan of attack when you have somebody that is playing a putter they absolutely should not be playing, but they love it, and they they I have to put with this. This isn't, you know, like somebody is playing a blade that they should not be playing a blade.

Preston: 17:11

Gosh, I'm really having a hard time thinking of anybody where they absolutely should not be playing a particular putter. That's that's a tough one for me. Here's why. Okay, so take your Scotty Cameron marketing. Toe hang putters are for more arc stroke, face balance is for more straight back, straight through. Is a great way to help somebody make a decision and sell putters, but at the end of the day, the person is in charge of the stick. I can take a Wilson 8802 with a ton of toe hang, and I can move it very linear with very little face rotation. And then I can take a mallet putter and I can swing it on a 20-degree arc with some face rotation. The putter didn't do that. I did that. There was one of those very uh, I was a little punchy back in the day when I was a kid and Twitter was still a thing, and I had my public service announcements, and it uh they posted something to the effect of stop the madness because you're holding the putter. You did that. The putter didn't have that rotation, you created that rotation. And when you stop and think about that for a moment, you go, the person's in charge. Why wouldn't I want to understand more about my setup and my movement pattern since I am in charge? This isn't to say that the putter doesn't influence that pattern. I think it very much does. Yeah. And therefore, there may be one that is better than the other, but there are also some players that we could use a mid-mallet, we could use a mallet, we could use a blade, and their movement pattern doesn't really change. And what's really going to have all the listeners kind of questioning things is are you one of that small percentage of people that do the opposite of the marking material?

Speaker 1: 18:50

Yeah.

Preston: 18:50

I had one player, plus two, out in Southern California, came to see me, and he had this is going back a ways. Scotty Cameron had the M series, it was the M1, M2, and it had the big plus sign on the back flange of the this almost looked like a square back. And that putter with the neck had a little bit of toe hang to it. And the Phantom 5 that the player had that was face balance, the Justin Thomas putter with the wings on it. And that one was face balance. He had more rotation in the phantom with the phantom than he did the M M1 putter. And I looked at him and said, so-and-so, why why? Like, is there something that you see in the putter that makes you want to do something differently? Because I just found it very odd. He's doing the exact opposite of what everything says supposed to do. He says, Well, the plus sign on the back flange is perpendicular and it's very linear, and it just speaks to me as very straight back, straight through with a very little rotation, versus the shape on the wings of the phantom kind of scream to me some arc and some shape to it. So he's looking at the shape, and the shape was. Speaking to him in some way that made him move the putter differently or think that the putter needed to move a certain way. Wow. Golfers. But I think a really great example of there's a general playbook. And then sometimes when it's third and 16 and they send the extra rusher, we need to check the option and get rid of it. Forget what the playbook says we're supposed to do. I just need to not end up face down in the dirt here.

Speaker 1: 20:25

Yeah.

Preston: 20:25

So for me, from that blend of the fitting and the coaching side, being able to take all of that information, mash it together, and really identify okay, here are the next steps. Here's the next step that we're going to take to make sure that the putter is working for you, not against you. And make sure that we've explored all of our available options.

Matt: 20:48

When somebody is looking for a new putter and they're they're not sure what's going on with their putty stroke, um, the what you called it, the Scotty Cameron marketing will say, well, if you have a strong arc, you want a toe hang, if you, you know, face balance, if you're more straight back, straight through. Um is that where you would recommend somebody start, or would you how how would you point somebody to say, hey, this is where you should start? It's interesting.

Preston: 21:12

Well, Matt, I think you actually said it in the very first part of that. Somebody has no idea what's going on with their stroke. That person probably shouldn't be trying to decide on a putter at that point. We should probably be trying to decide on structure and movement pattern that allows us to answer that question more effectively. We should start there with building it first because somebody might have a, oh, I have an arc stroke and I have a lot of face rotation, I need a blade. Well, no, you actually rotate your lower body and you and you rotate the forearms and you have too much change in your wrist conditions. Well, all of those things added together create a lot of arc and a lot of face rotation. That's not necessarily a great combination of things to have. So, do I want to immediately assume, oh, I need a blade putter because I do that? Well, I think you do that because you move it poorly.

Matt: 22:00

All right. But to counteract your comment, which I fully respect, you're not standing at the PGA superstore telling everybody, no, I'm not. You're not there. There's not a I can't say not a virtual Preston standing there going, uh uh. It's a great idea for some AI though. Yes, yes. So, for I mean, the putter business is booming. It's crazy what putters are going for right now. Everybody's coming out with new putters every year. Last year, Odyssey, we had 30 SKUs, probably gonna have another 20 SKUs this year. Um it's confusing for a lot of people, and they want to get better at putting. A lot of people aren't going to take the time to dive into an online lesson or book a lesson or strictly on putting because it's it's not hitting it 300 yards. It's not a sexy part of the game. For me, it is, but for a lot of people it's not. So, uh, where should somebody start if they're you know in the PGA superstore, Las Vegas Old Superstore, wherever, and they're looking, they want to get a new putter before dropping four or five hundred bucks. What would you recommend somebody does?

Preston: 23:10

Yeah, I think we need to find the couple of putters that we like the look of, and there will be plenty of options in the store. So let's get the coup, let's get the couple of three that we say, okay, I can tolerate looking at this, or I'm curious about this putter, but then we should immediately start looking at the start ability to manage start line. Can I get this putter started online? Uh whether that be setting a chalk line, a gate, a T gate, a mirror gate, whatever it might be, at least something to get us some feedback that between these options, two of the four putters I picked fell off because I just don't hit it as straight as I'm supposed to. So that would be an easy one to look for. And I think that should be immediately followed by which one of these do I manage my speed best with? And I think that needs to something like that should needs to go beyond just can I get a 30-footer to stop near the cup? How consistently can I do that? Things like what the base stroke shows for the dispersion and being able to measure a dispersion size. Can I get five putts to stop inside the leather, inside the shaft length? Like that would be a fantastic starting point. But if I can, between these two remaining putters in my set, recognize, hey, this mallet putter that's a little bigger and a little heavier is really a struggle for me to get 20 footers to travel a same distance consistently, versus when I go to the blade putter or something that's lighter, my job's easier. I'm getting that result better. So I think there are steps you could take. Uh, big picture, you could look at the speed component first, and then the direction or the direction component, then the speed. In any case, I think I would want to check and test those pieces before settling on one.

Matt: 24:52

Okay, so if somebody goes into Golf Galaxy, they got a huge putting green there and they grab three putters that they like looking at. Um, would you say like set a ball down and then put another ball three feet away, maybe, and try to hit that ball to see how your start line is? Is that a good way to do it?

Preston: 25:09

Or the golf ball is a little too big a target. I think if we wanted to go something smaller, ball marker, small coin. Bring a ball marker with you.

Speaker 3: 25:18

Yep.

Preston: 25:19

I think putting a marker like that, maybe eight feet away. Eight feet, okay. Eight feet away with a quarter, and how many am I hitting with a quarter? And if it's all of them, then let's make the target smaller. Let's move to a dime or a nickel.

Speaker 1: 25:30

Okay.

Preston: 25:31

Something smaller, but I think that would be good, Len. Again, language self to get us some feedback. I will not tell anybody to walk into the store and throw a chalk line down with a potting green. I won't PJ to inner store to still like me. Yeah, I was trying to think of what somebody could quarter and dime. It's perfect.

Matt: 25:46

It's a everybody's got quarters and dime laying around. So that's really what I need. I need somebody to go, yeah, I heard Preston's putting it on the podcast. I want to have a chalk line in the store. I want to go into a golf retail store and see somebody with, you know, three putters and a quarter and an eight-foot putt and helping, you know, want to start a trend. Start a trend. Don't just go in and grab what you heard on the internet is the best putter.

Preston: 26:09

And notice how none of that involved putting to a cup. Yes. I talked about dispersion, which means I can't be going to a target. So therefore, I need to see the ball roll out to completion. We talked about going to a an object that allows us to see, hey, about how online did this start. I wouldn't be mad if somebody walked into the store with their Preston's putting template and threw that down and said, hey, I'm getting some feedback for whether or not it's straight. But you know, I think that's uh I think those would be prudent steps for any listener that's a champ that's joined us today to follow that path and at least we'll step in the right direction. All right. Not that length. Uh I know I don't think I fully answered the about the zero torque side of things. Okay. Let's flash back on that. All right. Okay. Uh for zero torque. Help some, hurt some. Uh, I I think we need to be careful with understanding what that may or may not do to a player's feel. Um, your fitter. Yes. Think uh, can you think of somebody that was you were doing driver fit with, you put a shaft in there, and their response was, I can't feel the head, I can't feel the face. All the time. Happens a lot, right? Now consider what torque does for us as a player. If there's torque, if we are able to recognize a feeling of the putter, maybe in transition, as we start moving the putter back towards the golf ball, hey, maybe a person's ability to manage and square the face is built around their ability to feel that torque. Well, when you go to a zero torque putter or low torque putter, you may be reducing or taking that feel away just to help the player hurt the player. That's something worth, that's something worth asking. I've seen a fair number of players switch to a zero or low torque putter and the honeymoon phase ends after 10 days. Yeah.

Matt: 28:02

My uh my post that went viral about uh the lab revealer. I said in it, and the the headline on that post was if you can't control the face on a three mile an hour club head speed swing, it's not the putter. The putter is not the problem. You should be able to control a face. Doesn't matter if it's like you said, an 8802 or you know, a big DF3 lab putter. If you can't control the face, it's not the putter that's the problem. You have to work on something that's gonna help you control that face better.

Preston: 28:39

Yep. If we can manage the face better, then that's a that is the starting point, that is the prerequisite. Not to say though that over time with testing, we won't say one is better than the other, and that I do it more consistently with. And I hope that's what everybody listening to this would take away from that. Let me find the putter that allows me to manage the face the most consistently without sacrificing speed. All right, that enough on zero torque. No, no, we're already now we're good.

Matt: 29:06

I would have felt bad if we moved on and I didn't get that bit in there. Uh okay, so putter length, the the length of putter that you play. Uh it it's dependent on, of course, how tall a person is. A person that's four foot ten is not going to play the same length of putter who the person who's six three. I mean, there are some people that do that, but um what would you say uh is someone looking for the right length to play is the is the proper starting point.

Preston: 29:34

That goes back to building the setup. And I think there's I wish that there were a more precise playbook or being able to answer that over a podcast. Here's uh couple of things though, I think that the folks at home should definitely take away. One, if you're just standing there comfortably and letting your arms hang, that's probably not the optimal spot for your arms to sit, and therefore probably not the length butter you should get. I think there is some combination of forward bend at a dress. That would be how much somebody's bent over, um, both in the lumbar and the thoracic spine. And once that is coupled with how much arm bend a player needs based on segment length, plus a little bit of comfort in there, plus the internal, external rotation or how flared the elbows are, how tucked in they are. Once you have those three pieces together, you can get a much better answer. I think players would do well to take, if nothing else, even if they're not taking an online lesson from me, take a video of what your setup looks like from down the line and maybe just draw a line on the lower half of the spine and just see relative to the 90-degree vertical, how forward is that? Because I'll see a lot of players that are standing what they would call hunched, but when I look at it, I see them very upright in the lumbar spine, 10, 15 degrees of forward bend in the lumbar, and then a big protraction of the shoulders and a big rounding of the shoulders and a reach with the arms to get back down to the ball. And that player is using a 35-inch putter and they're really struggling to reach it. Well, the root cause of that problem is that they just don't have enough forward bended setup. You know, that neutral forward bend is probably somewhere between 30 and 40 degrees. So we look at all of a sudden changing that for a player when they come see me for a lesson or they're working online. Now all of a sudden they get into that position, they go, wow, my shoulder structure looks different. It looks relaxed, it doesn't feel the raised and tense. And now all of a sudden they're holding the putter at 33 and a half inches when the guy's 5'11 and said, I never thought I would need a putter that short, but we've changed the setup to allow more functional movement, and he's 5'11 and has long arms. Next thing you know, we're down 33 and a half without trying. But he was under the impression that he needed a 35-inch putter because he was tall.

Speaker 1: 31:59

Yeah.

Preston: 32:00

Now, here's the part that'll really keep everybody at home awake. Did he start setting up that way because he was trying to fit the putter? Or did he always set up that way and just get a putter to fit that setup? How many times do we mess up a setup? How many times do we stand there incorrectly because we're working hard to fit the club? Yeah. I think it happens a lot.

Speaker 1: 32:22

Oh, yeah.

Preston: 32:23

On your side, how many times has a player built a swing pattern because it's poorly fit equipment and it's not working for them, and they're doing everything in their power to try to fix it. Yeah. It happens all the time. It happens all the time. I think that's I think that we're so happy to spend several hundred dollars on a putter. If nothing else, jump in for one online lesson. Hey, I need to know how to set up so that when I do invest in a putter, I'm not barking up the wrong tree.

Speaker 3: 32:54

That's brilliant right there.

Preston: 32:55

I think, and even still, I would say in that lesson, you probably have a bunch of putters in the garage ranging somewhere from 33 to 35 inches. Let's figure out the length with something that you have sitting in your house. If you have all 35s and I'm over here telling you you need something shorter, we're gonna put a piece of electric tape on the top of the putter an inch down and go, here's the new top of your putter. Show me what that setup looks like before I send you to the store to buy a new putter. Right. So I think as as odd as it is, like I think we can handle the putter fitting thing remotely just by getting some of the essentials in place. Let's make sure the setup's good. Let's make a good decision. That way, when I send you to the store for one, okay, I know what I need to get.

Matt: 33:35

All right. For the record, there's nothing wrong with a 33-inch putter, right?

Speaker 1: 33:39

No.

Matt: 33:40

Okay. I get clowned all the time for my short putter.

Preston: 33:43

Yeah, well, and and then you and then you switch to a longer one and look what happened, right?

Matt: 33:48

See video, see before and after video for that one. Okay, so we got we covered blade versus oh no, we haven't really covered blade versus mallet. I guess. Yeah, let's get into blade versus mallet. Um traditionalists love the blades. Uh mallet people are like, this is the future. Uh it's showing on tour right now. It's like what uh the top 25 in the world, 80% of them are playing mallets. Um is the world of putting changing to a mallet game?

Preston: 34:21

Uh I think blade versus mallet is almost too broad a topic to try to lump people into. Okay. I think a more prudent question might be okay, mallet, and then what is that doing to the toe hang? Because the next shape has a lot to do with is this a face balance mallet? Does it have a little bit of toe hang? There's some mallets with a lot of toe hang. So I think we need to be a little bit more precise in putting those players into groups. Okay, so is it is it an MOI thing versus I do think the MOI offers a higher level of forgiveness and that if you're making a mistake, at least it can hide it in some capacity. I'll think back to a lesson. I have one player in particular I'm thinking of. We were standing on the putting green and he had a he had a very nice, um, very nice swag putter, actually. And he's was using that and then switched to switch to a mallet putter with a soft face. And he just brought it out one day. We're standing on the green, sitting putts and looking so why the change? Oh, yeah, you know, I just wanted something that was a little more forgiving. And I look over his bag and it's got a nice staff bag there, it's got these mirror blades in them. And I start asking him, bites, shift topics. You know, it's like, oh man, I'm looking at your back for the first time. You've got these mirror blades, they're really nice. What do you like about them? Oh, I get a lot of feel, I get a lot of feedback. When I miss it, I know that I missed it, and I want to be aware of that. I was like, oh, cool. You never play cavity back irons, would you? He goes, Oh no. And I look at that and I go, Well, then why are you playing a cavity backputter? And the look on his face was just immediately walks over the bag, grabs the swag putter, goes, I do kind of need to know when I miss it, it don't I? I go, Yeah, some feedback's good. I think some feedback without getting the shit kicked out of you is kind of nice too. Yeah. Where, hey, if I miss it a little, it's not gonna go five feet short on a 30-footer. But I do need to know, hey, I need to be more precise with my strike. And I think it's finding that careful balance. I think a lot of us are rushing to hide the problem, though, with the switch to the mallets and the softer faces, not fully understanding what are some of the shortcomings in that aspect.

Matt: 36:38

How much does the the acoustic, the audible? Uh, I know um talking with Dave Frish from Goodwood, uh, he loves a smooth face. He likes hearing that click. Uh, I'm somebody that likes a deep face milling, a little bit more muted, a little bit I know acoustics transfers to feel. If if it's not as loud, you think softer. Um so is there is there a level to putting that acoustically a player needs to either hear it click or hear it not? I know I know it doesn't make a ton of difference on the performance of the putter. Um, there is some people say there is a little bit, I don't know, we'd have to dive into specific data points on that. Um, but it is there something to being able to hear the click versus not?

Preston: 37:34

I think we have two different topics there that both are worth exploring a little bit. I'm good at doing that. So let's go with the let's go with the putter face composition first. Uh Dave, awesome guy. Love good wood putters and a preference for a fine mill mark or a flat face. When you have a flat face putter or something with fine milling, there's going to be more surface area contacting the golf ball. Therefore, the smash factor or impact ratio for all my quintic friends out there is going to be greater than a putter that has deep mill marks. Or if the face composition is soft like an insert, there's going to be less energy transfer. That smash factor will go down. So understanding that changing the face and what it's made of or how it's milled changes that audio response and also changes the ball performance. This is where I had one company could get me a flat face putter, uh fine milled putter, all seam heavy, and then one with grooves, and had one of my good players come in and test it. And the smash factor was visibly different on these 10-foot putts and measuring on Sam Putt Lab, the stroke lengths are verified, we're tracking the ball speed, clubhead speed, and the ball's coming out differently. Same stroke, getting different performances. So that certainly matters. So I would say that that is coupled very closely to the acoustics of the putter and what it sounds like and changes our interpretation of how it feels. I value what a player's interpretation of that acoustic is, and I think it would be really cool without giving too much away about what's coming in the future, having an opportunity to get the head that's functional with that smash factor, that impact ratio. The player manages the speed well with, and being able to change the shaft to match the acoustics that they like. Yeah, that would be interesting. I can't share too much on that department, but there's there's cool stuff coming. If you're listening to this and you want to know more about that, you feel free to shoot me a message afterwards. There you go. There you go. All right.

Matt: 39:47

That's blade versus map. Did I miss anything?

Preston: 39:50

Did we miss anything? No, I think we yeah, we you talked about the yeah, impact ratio, face composition. All right. No, we checked that, yeah.

Matt: 39:56

Putter grips. Grips. There's fat, there's skinny, there's Long, they're short, there's spines, there's trapezoidal Gars and Golf. Don't forget the round ones. Uh, round ones, yes. Quark ones. Oh, I'll have to show you a video from a long time ago. Uh, somebody sent me a grip to try. It was all aluminum, and it had three uh screws at the top and bottom that you put it over the shaft and then you tighten the screws to center it. It was the worst sounding thing in the history of golf. It sounded like a broken aluminum bat. I mean, it was bad. Um but, anyways, grips. Uh ton of options on grips. Where where's your what's your opinion on grips and where people should focus? We use something that works.

Preston: 40:51

It depends. Such a coach's answer. I know. We so here's the thing. If somebody is asking questions though, where the answer is it depends, it is a very important question that every player should be asking themselves and making sure that they're equipped with enough information to make a good decision. If there are shortcomings for the vast majority of golfers, they'll switch the grip on the putter without fully understanding the ramifications of what did that just do to my putter. You know, the weight of the grip being different and slapping on a different one changes my total weight, changes my swing weight, and therefore changes my ability to manage speed. So just because your grip is old and beat up doesn't mean that you should immediately go switch it because it's old. We should put on something that's similar. Maybe when we cut it off, we should figure out how much it weighs, and that if we do need to go to a different brand, let's find something that's in the same ballpark. You know, taking off a taking off a pingman and putting on a golf pride blue star because I feel like I need something bigger. Well, you just reduce the swing weight of the putter head substantially. And then you go, I lost my feel, I lost my touch. And it's like, well, changing the grip might do that, for example. So I think I'd want to prioritize those pieces and how is it affecting my putter? So that would be first. Second, that goes back to I need a grip size and shape to match my ability to move the putter. I see a lot of players with grips that are just flat out too big. I think there was uh there was a run of Scotty Cameron putters, the Matador grip. Yeah. It was significantly larger. And even the mid-Matador was just too big for a good chunk of players, a big chunk of the market. So I'm glad to see that that shifted back to a more neutral size pistol. And at least that way, if somebody needs bigger, they can go up from there. Yeah. But for stock to be too big to fit in the hands, I think caused a lot of problems for players. And as much as we might have liked the feel of that grip, I know I did. I put my hands on it, wow, this is soft. I really like and liked what I felt there. And then I'm holding it going, it's like, I have long fingers and this still just doesn't quite fit how my hands work. Which second is the next point, the size of the grip.

Speaker 1: 43:06

Yeah.

Preston: 43:06

I don't think that hand size necessarily is indicative of what size grip you should be playing. I have a medium-sized hand, long fingers, and I'm in a pingman or your traditional Scotty Cameron pistol. I really like my old school pebble grain grip for all the Scotty fans out there. I paid way too much for one recently on eBay, but I've got a putter coming back with. I really want that grip on this putter.

Matt: 43:32

So, what what is it for you that you like about that small of a grip?

Preston: 43:37

The the ability to fit my hand. Yeah. And how it does how the fingers rest on that. That's something that I've always had growing up. And every time I try to go bigger, I there's not a ton of difference in performance. I've measured a couple of my stroke with a couple of different grips, and it doesn't change a ton. It's a comfort factor for me. Uh, it's something about the texture, the shape of the pebble grain grip. It has a little bit of a hard spine on the bottom that sits really nicely in my left hand. So I kind of feel it running through the fingers a little bit, and it sits across the uh I am um and across the right hand a little bit and how it sits on the heel pad. Just those elements really makes my hands feel one with the putter.

Matt: 44:23

Is it is it really personal preference, or is there is there a performance side of it that you would go, okay, you you're the grip you're playing, maybe a bigger grip would benefit you, or hey, your grip is too big, let's look at something smaller.

Preston: 44:36

Well, when I'm looking at the how the putter's moving and taking those measurements while somebody's in for a session, it's absolutely on my radar that is this is this helping or hurting? And you also have to consider that as you change the grip, you're probably changing the orientation of the hands, which is changing how the putter's moving, also. And if I need to change a grip size to get more help, more face rotation, less face rotation, whatever it might be, that I have to recognize, hey, that's an available option to me. And again, goes back to if you're just switching grips because the grip is old, just be careful. You might be changing a lot of things performance-wise.

Matt: 45:15

How would you recommend somebody goes about finding out? I know, I know for press and combs online lesson, uh, of course, but if somebody's looking for a new grip and they're in the store and they see all these options, and um, you know, of course, all the tour players are playing the superstroke right now, and and we're promoting Garzon, we think they're great. Um, where where should they start with? Is it is it feel first?

Preston: 45:40

It's gonna it's feel. The texture plays a big role in that. You know, not everybody likes the lamp lampkin uh lampkin dual edge that has a little bit of cord to it. Some people go, oh, that's too rough for me. I like the shape of that one in my hands also. It's a little bit too big. I've got to tinker with the right hand just a little to get it to fit on there the right way, but I can make it work. I have it on one of my putters and said, hey, this is good, this is good enough. But I recognize, hey, this is what it's changing compared to the compared to a pingman or the pebble grain grip. So I know what I need to do differently in order to get to sit in the hands. And in for me, it doesn't affect face rotation ability to hit my start line very much. Other people, if you're making that adjustment to the grip, it might change things for that person. So I think we're gonna want to go for texture first and say this feels good in my hands, closely followed by the shape of the grip and making sure that I can get my hands on the putter the right way. What is the right way? We'll have to take a deep dive into that on the for individual players, but that goes back to well, the direction test with the quarter that we talked about, you're probably checking that at the same time. Right? So if the stop grip that is on that putter and we're able to hit the quarter from eight feet pretty consistently, I'd say, okay, we're not far off the mark. Probably good enough.

Matt: 47:02

All right. Um putter shafts. We're gonna we're gonna get to my fitting here in a in a minute, I promise. But there's so I got so many questions that my list was long and I had to condense it down. So putter shafts. There's a ton of options out there now. You know, traditionally, steel shafts been around forever. Um, and then now we've got the double bends, and then you got graphite, and you got polyblends, and you got uh carbon and steel combined, and uh all graphite. Uh is there anything to the aftermarket putter grips or shafts in your opinion?

Preston: 47:39

It's it certainly matters. I think we need to be careful that the switch from steel to graphite or a combo, a combo shaft that is part steel, part graphite isn't negatively impacting speed. I've seen that happen with some shaft types, some players, a couple come to mind in particular, where you know they were in that compound shaft, and just managing the lag put speed just wasn't very good. And I understand that those companies might collect data that suggest, say, this graphite shaft or this combo shaft might might torque less, might twist less, therefore it's better. But they're not testing the human element on the back end of how does the player respond when to a arguably the most important skill, which is speed, when I make that change and put it in their hand. So, yes, the rotation rate might be more consistent, or and they might hit it straighter, but at what cost? If we're not asking a question about, hey, yes, I've gained in this aspect, have I sacrificed somewhere else? And that's the unsettling part for me. Is the speed change related to weight? Could be weight, could be just how the putter feels, and that it's different when you put, let's say, a uh or a combo shaft, you have some segment of graphite and then on right in the middle of the shaft, and then maybe steel at the top and steel at the bottom. That that totally changes where the weight's distributed, and therefore, what does a 40-footer feel like? I think we would want to we just need to be careful in in that area and make sure that we're not gaining somewhere at the expense of another area. Yeah. Um, but so uh now is there a world where a graphite shaft, where the rotation rate's more consistent for players, and then yeah, we absolutely would want to look at that. If it's not hurting the speed department, it's gonna be up, right? Anything I can do to hit it straighter and more reliably.

Matt: 49:49

Does um torque in these other shafts, like BGT is a big proponent of you know, uh our shafts reduce torque on missed strikes uh better than anybody else. LA Golf is the same thing, super, super stable all the way through. Is is there any science to that that you see is benefiting players?

Preston: 50:11

Uh yes, but I think everybody responds so differently to technology like that. There's going to be some players that it works out great for, and there's gonna be some players where you go, it's just not as good. Or maybe it's neck, neck, maybe it's negligible. Uh, one of my friends up in the New England section has played a PHG putter with a stability shaft for a very long time. And every time we try to find a similar putter, similar head, similar toe hang, we will spec the weight to get that nailed down. It's just not as good. And so here's one where we go, yep, it's gonna be a stability shaft, and probably for the rest of forever. Because it's currently so good we have a hard time beating it.

Speaker 1: 50:50

Yeah.

Preston: 50:50

But that's not gonna be for every player, destined. And then there, and there you go with the it depends again.

Matt: 50:56

Right, so there's your coach's answer. There's a coach's answer. We'd circle back to it. Um, so I thought of this earlier today. Why is putting so easy for some people, but so hard for others?

Preston: 51:08

You have some players that make it look easy. Take Denny McCarthy, for example. Always at the top of the stroke's game putting lists on tour, and he has really great awareness of what's happening on the green. He's moves around, he's very engaged with the environment. And you look at somebody that performs at that high a level for that long period of time. Well, they've earned that. They've earned that right to say, I can just look at it, I can just feel it, I can, yeah, you don't see that this putt's going to curve like this on the way into the hole. Like they've been in the environment for so long, and they see the matrix numbers going by, and they can take those numbers and describe exactly what the picture is. I hope that there's a generation that is old enough to understand that matrix reference, right? They'll bond that redhead, but that's a different story. Oh, let's see. So I think that they've earned the ability to say, oh, I just feel it out. I just look at it because they've spent enough time, they've gotten enough reps in, they've remembered enough scenarios, situations, and continue to learn from those where they've built this database that they can lean on. That stuff's earned versus the 15-year-old that wants to just go into the green and go, like, I just want to move around, feel like that. Yes, you can do that. You're going to have a slightly longer road to high performance because now it's volume. Now it's your ability to remember and it's your ability to adapt to those changing environments. And if you don't have something to lean on to adapt to, now that process just became a lot harder. Yeah. That's the person that sees the same slope, and one green is a step nine, the other green's a stemp 11. I'm literally looking at the same slope on a 10-foot pot. Those balls are going to do entirely different things. Anybody that's experienced might intuitively know how to adjust their start line and what that expected curvature and picture looks like in their head. Somebody that's inexperienced will just see the same slope and go, oh, I'm just going to hit it six inches left.

unknown: 53:17

Okay, great.

Preston: 53:18

Well, one of those is going to go in, one of those is going to miss. So I think it's that where the players that have that ability to move around and feel they've earned that by volume and repetition, versus some people that say they don't have feel, they don't have touch. I firmly believe that those things can be taught. Awareness of what are the pieces that were moving in order to create that result. How did I get that ball to go 15 feet? What size did I use? What tempo did I use? When was it fast? When was it slow? If I understand a baseline structure, now I can start better identifying what happened on the misses. Oh, I was struggling with my speed today because the follow-through is too long and the tempo was too fast. All right, well, was it that your follow-through was long that caused the fast tempo, or did you have a fast tempo that caused you to have a long follow-through? And those are two very different scenarios just by changing the order in which you say those. So identifying which is which and giving people enough foundational information to figure out that puzzle for themselves.

Matt: 54:26

Yesterday I put out uh a thing on Instagram asking people to send any questions. And apparently, our listener base are all incredibly great prodders and have no desire to improve their game. Uh, we had one person submit two questions. So uh shout out Kyle on Instagram. He said, first question was how should you feel during the stroke? Kind of a loaded question.

Preston: 54:52

How should I feel during the stroke? Well, if there's signs of panic in the stroke, we certainly have a problem. Uh let's see. So, oh feels like Ghostbusters. Think of nothing, guys. Think of nothing. Then the Staypuff marshmallow shows up. No, I couldn't help her. I couldn't help it. I couldn't help it. Uh I will say blank though. I will say blank. Uh for the players that are saying, hey, I want to think about nothing. I think there's the there's not much thought going on my head. I'm pretty okay putter, and there's not a lot of thought, but there's not a lot of thought during the stroke because all the prep work has gone into it. How the best players I work with are know what that ball is going to do before they take the putter back. And they have very clear and strong objectives as to what they're trying to do with the putter in order to get the ball to do a certain thing. So I think it's that clarity that allows for that very Zen-like state, that blank space. Uh, going back to, I mean, when Rudy was working with Tiger and the 60-second sanctuary of the pre-shot routine. And then Tiger's talking about how he's so invested in the process and the visualization, how he acquired those skills, but then doesn't remember hitting the shot. He says, I remember stepping into it, I remember being over the ball. I don't remember the swing. I look up though, and I remember seeing the ball as on its way up to the apex. So I think it's that it's that blank, it's that blank aspect because there's such great awareness, but all of it came from the prep work to get to that point. Yeah. Um, I think how should a player feel over a putt? We have to talk about confidence. Everybody wants to be confident over the over the putt. And I had another uh coach in Chicago, a friend of mine, said that he asked his juniors, it's like, oh, well, what makes you feel confident? What creates confidence? And the kids always go, I'm seeing the ball going. Yeah, okay. So if your confidence is solely rooted in something where we miss more than we make starting at eight feet on the PGA tour, I don't think anybody's ever going to be confident. So if that's the case, then maybe I need something different that's going to breed that confidence. For me, that's the knowledge that I have systems and processes in place that I know allow me to make a better decision. I know my green reading is sharp. I know I can manage my speed well because of systems for that. I know that I've have a setup that helps me create a functional movement pattern to manage the face and to execute that speed that I'm looking for. I'm confident over every pot that I stand over because I have answers to those things. If we take the time to learn those systems, that's where the confidence is going to come from. We want to very much invest in, you know, Nick Save and Dr. Brett McCabe, of the removing that outcome-based effort.

Matt: 57:56

Do you uh Jack Nicholas had a great quote where he said, I never missed a putt. Because I always hit it where I was supposed, where I wanted to. Now, other factors may have come in: green speeds, breaks, uh, elements, drive, fast, whatever, but he always hit his spot.

Preston: 58:13

It's a testament to some uh to something that players should probably do a better job tracking from a stat standpoint. Group the misses into judgment errors or execution errors. Yeah. Hey, did I hit that 20-footer five feet by because I didn't sniff out that it shifted from 1% down to 2% down at the end? I just was gathering my information before hitting the putt. I just missed that. Like, no, the stroke felt great. That's the size I wanted, it's the tempo I wanted. It was a good strike. I didn't accelerate, and now I run into a ball's just in a look up and it's like, oh my gosh, that needs to slow down.

Speaker 1: 58:51

Yeah.

Preston: 58:51

So that's clearly a judgment error. That isn't a I need to go work on my speed after the round. And now if we keep hitting putts and they keep going by and you record have enough awareness that that follow through is longer than it's supposed to be, or something doesn't feel right with the tempo, okay, then we should probably address that after the round. It's like maybe it is mechanical. But so I think that is where Jack would say, I've never missed a putt. Because it was the execution was always good.

Matt: 59:18

Uh Ralph Bauer, uh, who was also on sweet uh uh sweet spot, um I was listening to him and how his approach to green reading really really resonated with me. Um, but he was talking about um amateur golfers have a tendency to say, oh, I pushed that, oh, I pulled that, oh I I'm you know, I made a bad stroke. And his his thoughts are no, chances are you just read it wrong because your stroke is your stroke. You know, if if you're you know, you have your putting stroke and you have your putting stroke, um, don't necessarily blame this your your motion as the Reason. You know, there's a probably more often than not, it's it's you read it wrong.

Preston: 1:00:05

When's the last time a player said, Oh shoot, I underread that by an inch? Exactly. And so I'm right with Ralph on that one. Like it never happens. Our assumption is that we've picked the correct target. It's why for my putting schools, we start with aim point and learning that skill of picking a good target because it's literally the first thing we need to do before when we step on the green. I need to interpret the surface and that the ball's rolling across. I need to pick a target. Where am I going to aim this thing?

Speaker 1: 1:00:34

Yeah.

Preston: 1:00:34

Once I figured out that cult followed closely by how far away are we, and the speed component comes next, and the decision making for what am I going to do with my stroke? They go one, they go one right behind the other. But gosh, if you're picking a bad target, I mean, I I can't really promise anything good happens when you aim the river in the right trees.

Matt: 1:00:54

Yeah, I uh great swing, but it's after listening to that episode with him and and watching that, I I had just had knee surgery, and so I couldn't play, but I went out with some of my friends to watch them play and do some recording. And uh was watching one of my friends at this putt, and it was so strange. And I talked to the the guys about this afterwards. I saw the break on the greens like like the matrix. I wasn't playing, I I had no skin in the game, but looking at everybody's putts, it was like I felt like Neo. I was like, I can see all of this beforehand, you know, completely different mindset from when you're playing and it matters, right? And so I had a completely different perspective and watched our friend line up a putt and he hit it, he goes, I pushed that, you know. And then I was watching the video, I'm like, you didn't push that, you know, you completely read that wrong. But the first initial instinct is for to blame the stroke.

Preston: 1:01:55

Yes, 100% is. Yeah, and I talk about that exact example. Uh, the example I run in the schools are you have four-foot putt, and somebody I demonstrate for players on a on a pretty steep slope, like a three percent or from four feet. Here's what this putt looks like if you hit it with good speed and you see it's gonna turn. Three percent slope, you can see that. Yeah, for the person that sees that plays a ball outside the edge. I hit that putt with good speed, and about just as the ball gets about three-quarters of the way to the cup, I go to rake it back and go, oh shoot, I pushed it. Right? And that's and then I stop and look at everybody and go, that's all of you, isn't it? You blame your stroke. So I'm right with Ralph on that one. I think it's a really it's a really great example that uh the world needs to hear and understand. Maybe you hit it on the right trees because you're aimed there.

Matt: 1:02:47

Yeah, 100%. All right. Uh pal's other question is what drills help build confidence? We're talking about confidence, so that's a good follow-up question.

Preston: 1:02:55

There you go. Very nice. It's almost like you knew I was gonna talk about confidence. What uh let's see, what drills help build confidence? I'm going to say, gosh, it's so any drill that is providing me feedback that I am improving my make percentage, improving my dispersion size, or improving my consistency, I would say is a successful drill. Um, for something specifically that improves confidence, I would say the base stroke has to be number one on the list.

Speaker 1: 1:03:30

So good.

Preston: 1:03:31

For those that are listening for the first time, the base stroke system that really brought Matt and I together. Matt listened to me on the Sweet Spot podcast with Adam and John and heard what I was talking about with the base stroke system and being able to regulate your stroke size. And if we had a consistent size and a consistent tempo, the ball goes the same distance. So um, Matt, I'll ask a couple of leading questions here. Okay, how far does your eight iron go?

Speaker 1: 1:03:57

Uh 145. Pitching wedge? 120. Five iron? I don't have five iron. Sorry. Six iron. Uh 170.

Preston: 1:04:09

Putter?

Speaker 1: 1:04:10

Yeah.

Preston: 1:04:12

I hope everybody that's listening tried to answer those questions as we went along there and then got to putter and went, I I I don't I don't know, uh, as far as it needs to.

Speaker 1: 1:04:21

Yeah.

Preston: 1:04:21

I don't know how angry am I, how far can I throw it? It can go a pretty long ways if I throw it. Uh so we look at that and go, I think from a practical standpoint, you have 13 clubs in the bag, you know how far they go, when to use them, and you can hit a couple of different shots with them. And they get to the putting green, I'm just gonna feel it out. There's no structure, there's no framework, it's just guesswork. It's oh, I'm going to feel it. And feels are subject to change, they're subject to different interpretation. And if you're doing that, now you might be putting yourself in a position where you're using a pattern that works some of the time, not all of the time. Your full swing equivalent of a pattern that works some of the time would be swinging very far into out with an iron. If you swing 10 degrees right with a pitching wedge, you can probably get away with that. The club's got a ton of loft on it, the ball's not going to curve a lot. You swing 10 right with a driver, good luck. You're gonna have one of three ball flights, swinging hook, big draw, or push into the next county. Right? And it's just a pattern of hey, that right path with the path that far right, it works some of the time. Not all the time. So when you have somebody that's got a putting stroke where they have a, let's say, a short stroke with a fast tempo, that will work great some of the time. And we see a lot of that from players that may have grown up on very slow greens where they move everything a lot faster. And maybe they're from Europe and then they come stateside where the greens are run 11s, 12s, and now all of a sudden that short stroke of the fast tempo gets really hard to manage when you get that stimp 12 and it's going downhill and it's an eight-footer. And because you use the fast tempo and the short stroke, now you need to make that stroke even smaller. Now it's almost so small that it's becomes too hard to manage. And therefore, now that player is in a scenario where they need to do something differently, they need to build a new punting stroke to accommodate that scenario. But then they're on the stint 12 green, and when you start going back up the hill, now we need to go back to the old pattern. And now you can think of plenty of scenarios where you might have to use both of those strokes on the same hole. And so you can see the errors of my stock, my baseline might be built in such a way where there are limitations. Most people don't even know they have limitations till we start until we start diving into the system with the base stroke of here's a measured size, here's a moderate tempo, establishing what those expectations are of how far that stroke goes. If we answer those questions, now we've built a pattern that allows us to travel to different places more effectively.

Matt: 1:07:08

The vertex system that you use, um credible. The data was outstanding. It's I didn't like putting on Sam Put Lab because the device on the putter is kind of an ISO. Um, but the vertex one, you don't even know it's there.

Preston: 1:07:25

Yeah, I mean, the triplet on the Sam Putt Lab really allows for great data. And I've said in the beginning podcast, I own my Sam Put Lab, I use it. There are some data points that you get, and the 3D renderings and the communication of you know, through the custom reports that I've created in that really send great messages for players. It's awesome to visualize how that putter's traveling. It comes at a cost. The triplet with the battery in it for the wireless one is 55 grams plumped in the middle of the shaft. And for, you know, as a fitter, we both would recognize that you know the neck has a lot to do with the and head shape has a lot to do with our ability to aim the putter. Well, if you have something that's on the heel-shafted side of things, the triplet covers that. So I think there is a limitation of the product in that sense of is when I cover the neck that is influencing my ability to aim it, am I actually getting good aim data? So I have to keep that, I have to keep something like that in mind. I'm again not saying it's bad. I own the tool, I use it. You just need to know the somebody, gosh, I'm going to blank on who the full swing coach is that shared this with me. So I know it's either John or Don or somebody said, just know the limitations of your technology. It might not have been either of those guys too, but now I'm thinking about it. It could have been Cameron. Uh, in any case, like to whoever you are listening to this, credit to you for that one. I didn't come up with that. But knowing what your limitations are, it's like, hey, what does this do well? What can it do better? Now, insert vertex, where we have a nine-gram sensor that is six inches from the sole of the putter, and it's on the back of the shaft. Now it's out of the way. Yeah, it's not really influencing my overall weight or feel of the putter. It's basically one time today. And it's basically not there. So now I think about from a player experience how unobtrusive that is. And then I'm able to get great data points of how much is the face rotating, what's the size of swing, what's the rhythm, what's my backstroke and forward stroke time? Essential pieces. And those are the pieces I think any player should be able to look at and monitor on their own. Hey, I know that I'm trying to make a bass stroke and my backswing length is all over the map. Great. I'd love for them to know that there's something that they can look at and do. That piece of technology has really allowed me to offer more effective online lessons too, because a player can have their vertex on, film their putting stroke, they get a video of their stroke, the data's overlaid on the right side of the screen. And if they're one of my clients, you get my coach code. I can open up my phone from anywhere in the world and see that data. It's awesome. I can look at it and I can go, hey, here's what's happening. And I think that's just invaluable. And my eye is pretty good. I've also been looking at pine strokes for 10 years to be able to have somebody submit just video, and we can very well figure out what's going on. But we're getting to a point now where, well, if I have the data and I know what to look for in the data, then my practice is more effective. Because as you found out today, with the setup stuff, feel isn't real.

Speaker 1: 1:10:32

Yeah.

Preston: 1:10:32

It didn't feel like I was, it felt like standing there like Michelle Wee when really, oh, it was just 15 degrees more forward bent and the arm structure is a little different. It felt like I was doing something different with the tempo, but gosh, I'd love for a player to know for sure that it's different, to see the change, to use a piece of technology to establish where the edges of the road are. Like the self-driving cars work great because they can see the stripes on the road and know here's the left side of the lane, here's the right side of the lane, stay in the middle. And it's absolutely terrifying in a Tesla when you hit a construction zone and the stripes are gone and the car panics and the speed goes from 75 to 50 really fast. Spoken from experience, that is why they say hang on to the wheel and pay attention to those things. You never know what's coming around the corner. But yeah, that is the absolute truth. But it think about how hard it is for players if they don't know where the edges of the road are to stay on track. They don't know that their tempo's gotten slower. And you know, we'll quote backswing times here, for example. And if the player lives at 0.72 seconds for their backswing, they're not repping 0.72 exactly. So let's say their range is 72 to 74 going back. And then they come out Wednesday and their range shifts to 73 to 75. Then they come back out on Friday and the range shifts to 75 to 77. Day to day, they're not recognizing that change. Well, when they come out on Sunday and that backswing time is all the way at 0.8. Now we've gotten out of functional range. It's too slow going back. Now we have a problem. Now the strokes are moving so slowly. I need to do something to make up for that energy. The ball's not going to get there. Now we get somebody that's over accelerating. Because we found out today, hey, if you over-accelerate, you get a little extra twist in there. I can't promise you're going to hit it straight.

Speaker 1: 1:12:24

Yeah.

Preston: 1:12:25

So why wouldn't I want to have a tool available to me that just allows me to monitor and check and just make sure that the car stays in the flame?

Matt: 1:12:33

So with me today, I hit so funny. I told Press I feel like I'm playing really good right now. And then I made a putting stroke and you could just hear him go, Eee!

Preston: 1:12:44

Uh, this is why I don't sit at the poker room in this town, because I do not have the poker face. I kept I'm good at it during golf lessons, but gosh, I I saw that stroke and was like nails on a chalkboard from a visual, right?

Matt: 1:12:57

And that's like, oh my god, I thought I've been playing so well lately. Um, but what what did you see? Uh so because I I'm I'm not bashful. I share my putting stroke, and I know there's some inac inadequacies in it um on my IG page all the time. Um, but what did you see? And then what did what did we do to fix it?

Preston: 1:13:21

Yeah, I think from the from the overall look, I go with a 30,000-foot view of what does the stroke look like? And first things I'm assessing, how's the setup look? How's the size and tempo look? Those are two very surface level things I think most people could pop their phone on a tripod, take a look, and garner some very good information. I hinted at the setup stuff and some forward bend numbers earlier. That face-on view, I'm just looking at how far the putter head's traveling, how far is it traveling in each direction, the rate at which it's moving, and really putting those in just some pretty simple buckets of is it slow, medium, or fast. I'm like, let's start with those pieces. And when I saw you hitting your first five putts from face on, I was looking at it, going, that follow through is definitely long, but the solution isn't shorten your follow-through. The follow through is long because the backswing was short. And if we shortchange the backswing, now we have to add speed to try to get the ball to go to the get to the target. And when we add speed, we sacrifice that follow-through length. So we're pretty well able to look at something from that face-on camera angle and say, is this balanced or is something mismatched? Uh, what was that full swing example that I gave you out there? With uh Oh, how far do you hit your eight iron? You set up 144? 140, 145. Yep, cool. So you gave me that number, and what did I say to you for what your stroke looked like? It looks like you're trying to hit that eight iron 160 yards. And that sounded like it resonated when we were having the conversation. It made so much sense. You're working too hard, you're trying to get more out of this club than it's able to give you. And we so appreciate that for any iron shot and any approach that club selection is important. And yet we get to the putting green and we take it back eight inches and then tap the gas because we're trying to make up for it. And I'll tell you, some players hide it really well too, where it's tough to ask a really good player. I think you need to lengthen that backswing an inch and a half for me, because it they might hide the problem. It might look very balanced, that might look like it's going the same distance back and through. And that's where just an awareness of tempo piece or being able to throw a simple sensor on there and quantify some of those things. That absolutely matters.

Matt: 1:15:43

Good stuff. Um, so what what did we do, or what what did you what changes did you make? Yeah. That got me.

Preston: 1:15:51

Yeah, so we started with the we started with the size and tempo piece. And so it's like, hey, we had that discussion about it, looks like you're trying to hit eight iron 160, laid out the base stroke. Here's the map of here's the same size back and through the measurements for it, and then went to, okay, well, let's lengthen some. And then say, okay, we can get the putter moving from T to T. Then we started exploring the different tempos, helping you identify where's too fast, where's too slow, where's just right. And that process seemed to resonate with the idea that hey, tempo is kind of hard, it's an intangible, but through the systems that we talk about in the base stroke video series, that this is the way we can better answer that question of how do I get my tempo warmed up before the day gets started?

Speaker 1: 1:16:38

Yeah.

Preston: 1:16:38

I think it went back to that example of keeping the car on the road, establishing the framework of if I know where too fast and too slow are, I can find medium a little bit better.

Matt: 1:16:48

Yeah, the too fast, too slow drill was pretty cool. That that really makes you understand tempo.

Preston: 1:16:57

An awareness of it.

Speaker 1: 1:16:58

Yeah.

Preston: 1:16:59

And being able to call it up. Can we talk about metronomes for a second? Of course. Some people like metronomes. I don't know any group that allows the allows a player to pull out a metronome on the fifth hole and their two bows going sideways. So while a good learning tool and an awareness tool, at some point I need to be able to function without it. Yes. And I think if it helps us create awareness of too fast, too slow, and just right, then I'm all for it. But dependency on the tool, that's where I get a little fidgety. Now think about all the things that we talked about, we could improve. And this is just the size and tempo components, right? And you already said though, hey, I had gotten to be a pretty good putter just by listening to the podcast of me on Sweet Spot and incorporating some base stroke ideas. Think about that for a second. I only got a partial information on a free podcast, incorporated the bass stroke, and hey, I got better. Because we improved a skill. Yeah. It wasn't a tip on the podcast of try this grip. That's probably not going to do anything for you. For anybody listening to this, improve your skill set. Then what we found out today with Matt was layering technique on top of understanding that skill really opens some doors. But I think I think having the skill is the foundational piece. Then once you expand that into trying to create a different movement, how do I move it differently? How do I set up more effectively? Those things that technique helps you do the skill better.

Matt: 1:18:35

I started putting with a longer putter, not because I was getting shamed, but because uh I was standing up a little bit taller. Um and it just felt a little bit more comfortable. And then the video today like showed, yeah, you may feel more comfortable, but you are crushing your setup. You're just destroying it. Um so Preston got me back a little bit more spine angle, a little bit more, you know, uh over the ball. Not he he did this great example where he said, Okay, show me what Michelle Wee feels like. He goes, Okay, stand up your your position. Now show me the Michelle Wee posture. You know, so I bend all the way over like 90 degrees. Like, yeah, now back off that stuff. You know, nope, you backed off too much from that, okay, right there. And he's like, does that feel comfortable? You know, and so I started playing with it, and then he recorded it, and then I saw it, and I'm like, I'm not been over it all. I felt like I was, you know, at a 90 degree angle and gonna tip over any second, you know. But then, okay, let's get the let's get the balance in the middle of your feet and let's get that posture right. And the angles just started matching up, and oh my goodness, what a difference it was.

Preston: 1:19:52

And I think the difference came from when we created that structural stability. Now we didn't have any change in knee bend. Pelvic turn, loss of forward bend, and raising up, or if you were looking at the down the line video, somebody say, Oh, your head moved. All those things went away just by taking the time to put the setup structure in place.

Matt: 1:20:13

How still my body got was remarkable. It's two different people. And I wasn't not one time did I think, okay, keep your lower body still.

Preston: 1:20:25

That wasn't the thought. That's the best part about when somebody has the pieces lined up. Yeah. All of a sudden they start hitting putts and they don't need all of that extra movement to create energy to square the face to get the ball back online.

Matt: 1:20:39

It was it was incredible. I highly recommend, highly recommend. Check out Preston's uh Instagram page. Got his link tree on there. I shared that on the podcast uh story. I'll repost it. I'll keep it up on a uh special highlight for everybody to see. Um, it's invaluable information. If you have any desire whatsoever to get better at putting, this is who you need to talk to. Thank you for the nod map. I appreciate that. It's been, I mean, that we were out there for an hour? An hour. And I just my mind is still reeling right now with like it it wasn't it wasn't difficult.

Preston: 1:21:20

It wasn't, you know, we didn't we changed quite a bit, but it wasn't a lot of change, you know, it wasn't I think one of the reasons why players sometimes shy away from instructions that they're concerned it's going to be a lot. Or when people look at my website and they go, oh my gosh, a two or three-hour session, I can't putt for two or three hours. Okay. I think it's a preconceived notion that we are putting for two or three hours when really a good chunk of that time is creating an understanding of where are we now and what are the pieces. Because if I wanted to fix you in 12 minutes, I could probably do that. But do I want to? No, because you wouldn't have an understanding as to why we did the things that we did. Yeah, I would have said, stay Matt, stand closer, add to touch more knee bend, add some forward bend, center the pressure, get a little bit more arm bend, tuck the left arm, and use your chest a pot more. And we would go through that in a 10-minute window, get some reps out. Here's a before and after video. Man, you did great today. But you wouldn't have any idea why the heck that stuff matters. No. And the second it broke or the second you forgot a piece, there you're gone. Now you're dead in the water, now you're lost again. Right? So he, you know, you he can brag about doing a lesson in 12 minutes, but that's not really changing my life any. That's it's a great skill to have as a coach, but it's certainly not a goal of mine. I think the goal is to make sure that there's clear understanding so that when somebody leaves the garage from a lesson, I treat it as like I may never see you again. So if I don't ever see you again, you need to be able to keep working on the things that we talked about today and continue to see the trend upward. Will you hit a plateau eventually? Yeah, maybe because it's one session. But for those that have only seen me once, because maybe they live somewhere else, or it was just, hey, I'm just doing this a one-time thing. I'd like to think it left them on the right pathway. You hear me use that word pathway a lot. If we have a guided pathway, just some direction for how the heck am I supposed to do this better? I think that's the that's a game-changing piece for a lot of people. You also need an it-depends shirt. Just the it depends. Yeah, and then I'll dash John Graham for that one. Because, gosh, if there's a guy that really was uh inspired by coaching, uh for those that don't know, I mean John Graham, long time, long time putting coach out on tour, and you know, I had spent some time together, and he was always the one at the conferences putting his hand up going, what about this? What about this? What about this? And his answers to a lot of questions are well, it depends. And I think it's really showed me early on, you know, going back, I'm getting old now, 10, 12 years ago, that there was a, oh gosh, it's more than that, isn't it? It's yeah, it's more than that, actually. Because I do some math there. Um, it really showed me, though, at an early age in my coaching that it's not a one size fits all. It's not an if this then that. While we'd like to have an opportunity to try to break things down to that, you know, take the bass stroke, for example. Like, I'll fit all my players into the same size back and through. Find out what knobs to turn, where were the exceptions? What's the grip type that demands a slightly longer follow-through? What do I do if the putter's a certain weight? You know, are we battling too heavy a putter? And do I need to make an adjustment to the system and that player's baseline? Or is the putter a problem, right? So there are things like that where it depends.

Matt: 1:24:46

It depends. It depends. Okay, uh, somebody on tour right now that you have an admiration for their putting stroke.

Preston: 1:24:55

Uh there's there's a handful of good ones to pick. I mean, tough to argue with Danny Arty's performance. Um Taylor Montgomery is always at the top of the stroke scheme, right in some way. Um, yeah, friendly with friendly with his coach. And it's one of those uh there's some interesting numbers there um for stat-wise and his performance and some of the strategies they use, but he does a lot of stuff well. The um Jason Day was absolutely tremendous. I mean, I I I would have to go back and double check. I'm fairly certain that I scrolled through who was the strokes game leader since Strokes Games inception. And I'm pretty sure he was the only player that averaged over plus one for an entire season. That metric's now been around for over 10 years. So if there is a testament to wow, that was good, that was certainly it. Um, vintage Ricky stroke was just Ricky Fowler's stroke was just fantastic, too. Absolutely love that. Um think back with a conventional blade putter, I think. Yeah, yeah. All right, all roads lead back to what you were good at doing one point in time. Yep. So now he there's a so there are a few out there, a few out there that I like.

Matt: 1:26:10

Um the the lifting the putter, uh hovering the putter. Are you uh for or against hovering?

Preston: 1:26:16

If it works, it depends. Oh, we'll try it. And um, there are a couple of instances where there might be a mechanical advantage for somebody. So if they let the putter rest on the ground and they unknowingly are slightly pushing down on the putter or just one, just not aware of it, two, stress, anxiety, and they push down on the putter before taking it back. That might cause the putter to kick out, that could cause it to scuff along the ground a little bit, that could mess up the backswing. Okay, maybe there's a good mechanical reason for that player to hey, lift this thing off the ground a little bit, then go for me. So um the view so to avoid a an it depends answer there, maybe there's a reason to consider your options.

Matt: 1:27:03

Uh Harry Hall is a friend of ours. Uh went to UNLV.

Preston: 1:27:07

Uh oh man, how do I leave him off the list? I was uh I was wondering. Yes, about yes about stroke. I yeah, there you go. And I immediately go to stats. Look at me.

Matt: 1:27:14

Yeah, well, yeah, he uh was second in stroke's game fighting for the whole season. Uh Sam Burns passed him because uh Sam Burns, I think, made it to the final. I don't know, anyways. Um, but throughout the majority of the season, Harry was number one on tour in Stroke's game. And um, funny story, I thought this was amazing. So we were playing in a Five Iron League here in town, and we had Harry on the podcast, and you know, he plays out here, and and we go see him when when the Shriners was here, and uh we needed somebody to fill in. So I sent him a text, I go, Hey, if you're in town, you're not doing anything, you want to come play some sim golf with us at Five Iron? We need to fill in. Like, yeah, sure, I got nothing going on. So he comes down and he's hanging out with us, and it was awesome because he's uh he's a track man guy and they're indoor track man, and we always give track man shit for indoors and those simulators, it's never accurate. And uh he comes in and he hit two balls, and then he stopped and he gets his alignment stick out and he's lining it all up, and he's like, Okay, you need to hit it here, we're gonna putt here, and just he had the whole thing, and we played great. Um, but uh he's sitting there with his putter, and Dan, who's on the podcast, Dan, uh goes over and he's looking at his putter, and and uh Harry said to him, He's like, Yeah, best putter on the planet right there. And Dan's like, Oh, yeah, cool. And he was like, No, seriously, best putter on the planet. He was being humble about it, but he was being dead serious, like, no, I'm the best putter on the planet right now. Yeah, oh gosh. I mean, the the the work Mario's done with Harry is just absolutely tremendous. It's it's awesome. I'm so and then Brad Faxon reposts a video of him putting last year saying, you know, one of the purest strokes is like so happy for him. He's playing really well too.

Preston: 1:29:06

So yeah, there's a there's a lot of great stuff to look at and learn. And if you know what to look for looking at tour players, I think there's certainly a lot to be gained. Um understanding what different patterns are and how they look and how they perform certainly matters.

Matt: 1:29:21

Thank you so much for coming up here. I I ventured out and and brought Preston up the hill. Uh, he's been hanging out today. It's been awesome. I'm so looking forward to people hearing this. Uh again, I can't thank you enough for this. It's it's I've kind of been nerding out all day. Like I've been following you, watching your stuff, and it's so exciting to be able to work with you today and talk about putting I'm a total nerd into stuff, and like you exceeded my expectation immensely.

Preston: 1:29:52

Thank you. It was so great to meet in person. Glad we got to spend some time on the stroke and excited to see how the practice goes. I can't wait.

Matt: 1:29:59

Can't wait.

Preston: 1:30:00

Love it.

Matt: 1:30:01

All right, everybody. That's it for this episode. Uh, I hope you enjoyed this. Uh, we plan to have more stuff like this in the future. Um, again, thank you so much, Preston, for coming out here. And uh, everybody get out there and uh take the day.