The Wisdom of the Bees with Michelle Cassandra Johnson and Amy Burtaine

#72 - Join us for an amazing conversation with Author, Bee Tender, Activist & Healer Michelle Cassandra Johnson and Leadership Coach & Racial Equity Trainer Amy Burtaine on the practical and mystical teachings of honeybees, including powerful lessons that the hive offers for collective healing in community and for our relationship with the more-than-human world.

In this episode you’ll discover:

• What bees can teach us about living through times of chaos and collective transformation 
• How they operate as a superorganism, always tending the health of the whole 
• How bees’ work in the darkness offers teachings in times of disruption and uncertainty 
• The language of attunement and how humming with bees is supportive for nervous system regulation 
• The sacred geometry of the hive and what bees’ ceremonial movements reveal 
• The ancient ritual of “telling the bees” and how the bees’ teachings support and inspire deep work in community healing centered on attunement and service to the whole 

Michelle and Amy also invite us to remember that everything the bees make is medicinal, and to reflect on our own unique gifts for our communities and the Earth at this time.

Michelle Cassandra Johnson is an author, activist, spiritual teacher, racial equity consultant and educator, beekeeper and intuitive and shamanic healer. She teaches transformative experiences nationwide. Michelle is a six-time published author. Her latest book, The Wisdom of the Hive, published by Sounds True and co-written with her best friend, Amy Burtaine, came out in May. Michelle was a TEDx speaker at Wake Forest University in 2019. She leads courageously from the heart with compassion. Michelle inspires change that allows people to stand in their humanity and wholeness. She lives in North Carolina with her husband, sweet dog, Jasper, and her honeybees.

Amy Burtaine is a leadership coach and racial equity trainer. Her trainings for meaningful social change include work with Google, the DNC, and the ACLU. With Robin DiAngelo, she is the coauthor of The Facilitator's Guide for White Affinity Groups.

Learn more about The Wisdom of the Hive: https://www.michellecjohnson.com/wisdom-of-the-hive

You can find Michelle at: https://www.michellecjohnson.com/

IG: https://www.instagram.com/skillinaction/

Facebook: www.facebook.com/skillinaction

Books: https://www.michellecjohnson.com/all-books 

You can find Amy at: https://www.amyburtaine.com/

Also stay tuned for Amy’s upcoming Radical Cackle Project

For more info visit Sara's website at: https://www.multidimensionalnature.com/
IG: https://www.instagram.com/multidimensional.nature/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/saraartemisia.ms/
Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/plantspiritherbalism
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@saraartemisia
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@multidimensional.nature
Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/multidimensionalnature/

Learn how to communicate with plant consciousness in the free workshop on How to Learn Plant Language: https://www.learnplantlanguage.com/

Transcript

Sara Artemisia: 0:04

Welcome to the Plant Spirit Podcast with Sara Artemisia on connecting with plant consciousness and the healing wisdom of Nature. To learn how to communicate directly with plant consciousness, you can check out the free workshop at www.learnplantlanguage.com. And for Financial Coaching, Business Development Coaching, Flower Essence Therapy, or one to one mentorship sessions, visit www.multidimensionalnature.com. I'm your host, Sara Artemisia, and I'm excited to introduce our next guests to the show today. Michelle Cassandra Johnson is an author, activist, spiritual teacher, racial equity consultant, beekeeper and intuitive healer. She teaches transformative experiences, inspiring people to stand in their humanity and wholeness. Michelle is also the co-author of The Wisdom of the Hive, co-written with Amy Burtaine. Amy Burtaine is a leadership coach and racial equity trainer. Her trainings for social change include work with Google, the DNC and the ACLU, so Michelle and Amy. Thank you so much for joining us here today. Such an honor to have you with us.

Michelle Johnson: 1:37

Thanks for inviting us to be here today.

Amy Burtaine: 1:40

It's great to be here.

Sara Artemisia: 1:41

So excited for our conversation about the bees. I'm like, this has been many years, many years in the making, and so it's so wonderful to be talking with you today, and I'd love to just dive in here with with really a curiosity around what practical and mystical lessons can the honeybees teach us and the more than human world?

Michelle Johnson: 2:04

Such a big question, Sara, and we've written 18 chapters about it in the wisdom of the hive, and I can share some of the lessons that are very present for me today. Earlier today, I went out to my bee yard, and I have five honey bee hives, and I was watching them ascend, which, you know, if people have been around a Wild Hive or an apiary before, they will have witnessed bees leave the hive and launch either out of the hole in a tree or stump of a tree or hive box from the landing board, and the bees ascend. And I always love watching them for as long as I can. And then at one, at some point, they like disappear, right? It's like to me, it feels like they go up to the heavens or the above, and then they come back into view when they get close to the hive, and they make their way into the hive in this what can look like a serpent, that kind of flow of moving back and forth, or what is often called an orientation flight to their their hive. So they weave their way back into the hive. And so I was watching them do this, and you know, hundreds of bees were ascending today. And I was thinking about, and I often think about the and this feels mystical and practical to me, the way bees work between realms and the way they ascend. And I assume, you know, they're forging, they're going to gather resources or information or to search out where a field of flowers might be nectar or water, something that's needed in the hive that is physical or metaphysical. And they are bringing that back to the hive when they journey and make their way into the darkness of the hive. And the reason this feels, I mean, it sounds mystical, right to be able to ascend and to travel to the above and then to be able to return to Earth, right? With a duty to take care of the hive, or duty that is in service of the hive and their super organism as a hive, which is the way they operate together, as in union with one another. So just traveling between realms feels mystical, and then the practical piece of that for me is I am aware that so much chaos is unfolding on our planet right now, I will not suggest that the chaos is new, although the intensity of it feels different to me and heightened for sure, my nervous system feels dysregulated more than it ever has, and most of the people I come into contact with seem to be dysregulated at different points. How could they not be dysregulated, given just the unraveling, the unfolding the things that are nonsensical, the polarization and divisiveness that is playing out and how fractured we are from each other, human to human, and the more than human world, how we're separated from it. And so the practical piece for me is what information, it's really a question and curiosity, might I gather from other realms to bring back here in service of the collective human and more than human, just as I witnessed the bees doing that. And you know, the way we've explored this in the wisdom of the hive is through all these different themes of working with polarities, the above and below, right, the above in this Earthly realm, darkness, the darkness and light, which is something the bees work with all of the time, being able to work with the void and not fear it, not fear the darkness, and also experience this time as a portal of experience even the term that people use to describe this time as apocalyptic, which is an it's a revelation, right? It's this process of revealing what is has been, maybe under the surface that needs attention. And these are themes the bees work with the sting, right? Is something we explore, even the venom, waking up to truths that we may not want to reckon with at this time. And then, of course, this laboratory of the honey bee hive and an explanation in the wisdom of the hive of how bees actually work to support their hive and super organisms. So this traveling between realms is something I think about a lot and can witness in physical form, witness the bees do this every day, and also then think about how they inspire me to contemplate, what do I need to know right now, it's not that I need to know everything, or that I ever assume that I really don't what information might I be able to gather if I open myself to the reality that it's likely there are other other realms and experiences and lifetimes, incarnations that I can draw from, ancestral wisdom, that I can draw from to bring into the now. So, that's what they're teaching me right now.

Sara Artemisia: 7:30

Amazing. So, so powerful, so much in that and that question, really about asking that, that question of, you know, what information might I be able to gather now that there's such a powerful query.

Amy Burtaine: 7:48

So I would say there's so much, and it is a big question and And as Michelle said, the whole book are lessons from the hive and practices and practicalities, but also the mysticism we, Michelle and I always say we're in the Bee Mystery School, like we are students of the mystery of the bees, right? And we're in their mysticism school. And I think a lot about what Michelle already mentioned, that the bees are a super organism, which I think is such a powerful lesson for humanity, right? That the bees don't do anything to harm the collective, right? They don't act for individual gain. They don't act in selfless, selfish ways, right? What they are doing is always for the good of the hive. It is almost impossible for them to do anything that would harm the hive or harm the queen, right? They are there to nurture, feed, protect, grow, and Michelle always says that's also for future generations, not just for the now and so I think, you know, certainly one of the things that Michelle and I wish, when we think about the bees and the metaphors they offer to humans, is, how can we learn from and act more in concert with one another as human beings and the more than human world, to recognize that we are part of Nature, like you said, and that we are part of a, you know, a collective that can only survive if we are as a collective, tending and caretaking one another, right? And so I think for me, two of the it's interesting yesterday, we were leading our book club around with, you know, the book and the themes we were talking about yesterday was darkness, as Michelle mentioned already, and a teacher of ours, Francis Waller, calls this time, The Long dark. We are in a period of the long dark right, which feels like everything is, quote, unquote, descending, or descending into chaos, and things are breaking down and things are and he sort of flips that on its head. And we do it in the book as well, that the bees, the bees, the darkness, is unknown and a knowing. And so the bees don't fear the dark. The bees create in the dark and tend in the dark and birth in the dark and and transmute in the dark. They literally turn nectar into honey in the dark. And so there's something really powerful to be learned, even in times of disruption, if we can quiet down andand listen, and we talk also in the book about attunement, right? How do we quiet down enough by regulating our own nervous systems, attuning to our own needs and nervous systems and then attuned to one another to be able to be an open and receptive communication? And how do we attune collectively so that we are acting in concert with the good of the whole right, with with what is needed for that, which is life giving. So I'll stop there. I don't know how practical that was, but.

Sara Artemisia: 10:28

To me, it's incredibly practical. The fact that bees don't do anything that to harm the collective. I'm like, it's just mind blowing to me that that's even like, why is that even so hard for humans? I'm like, that should just be a given. I feel personally, yeah, so powerful. And just that, that aspect of not fearing the darkness, right? It's like seeds also germinate in the darkness. This is a really powerful time that we're in right now for germinating the seeds, germinating the seeds of what is it that we want to bring forward in the world, both in our own inner life and in our connection with all life as well. And that aspect of the attunement piece, I actually highlighted this in your book. I was curious if you could speak a bit more about this, or really about what the bees can teach us about attunement as a form of deep listening, because that resonated so deeply with me when I read that.

Amy Burtaine: 11:29

Yeah, I'll start just because it's a chapter that I worked on, but I'd love to then pass it to Michelle, because I know we both have deep thoughts about this. And you know, one of the practices that we offer in the book is humming. So one of the things that any bee tender or person that's around bees is you can tell a lot about the well-being, or emotions, one might say, or health of the hive based on the hum. And so the hum is how they can one of the ways they communicate, they communicate through sound. They communicate through movement. They communicate through pheromones. But they are attuning to one another, checking in with one another, moving together, right, shifting, adapting, and they communicate about this. And so for me, one of the biggest and beautiful pieces of their attunement is how they hum together. And I know, as a bee tender, that whenever I'm doing something wrong or I'm, you know, moving too fast or doing something that the bees don't like, their their their pitch shifts as a collective like it goes up, it gets more stressed, it gets more high pitched. And you know, they're clearly saying, like, "Hey, back off". This is not working, right? So they are attuned to one another through sound, movement and vibration. And one of the things that we offer in the book, that we want is for you know, a practice is for us as human beings. We can certainly meditate, but we can also, through sound and vibration, work on our own nervous systems, through the practice of humming, either individually or collectively. If folks are around bees, hum with the bees, if not, pull up a YouTube video and hum with them. It is incredibly powerful practice to regulate and down regulate the nervous system. It's also a really powerful practice to do collectively, Michelle and I have been doing it across the country at our book readings, where we'll sit with groups of people in hum, and people are just so touched and amazed, even in a short period of, you know, five minutes of how deep they felt connected to one another and how different they feel after that experience. So, that's what's initially coming up for me, but I want to pass it to Michelle.

Michelle Johnson: 13:31

Yeah, thanks, Amy. It's often when I talk about the bees. I talk about my mom. Her name is Clara, and the reason why I bring her in to most spaces, in particular, if I'm talking about bees, is because when the bees came to me, my mother was quite ill, and we thought she was transitioning from the Earthly realm. She's still Earth side, still quite ill, and I was having and bees are psycho pumps in the way that I described earlier of traveling between realms. And so, a friend suggested the bees chose you at this time, perhaps to help your mom transition. So I was talking to my mom, Clara, last night, and I believe that she is experiencing some early signs of dementia. We aren't sure yet. And she, I was telling her what day it was, because she couldn't keep track of that. And I told her, yesterday was Wednesday, where I am. And I said, today's Wednesday, mom, today is Wednesday. She kept confusing the day, and I had this moment of wondering, how do I need to communicate this so that she'll understand it? And so your question about deep listening totally brought that to me, like I was saying the words that I understood in the language that I speak to communicate, what day it was, right? And something was happening in her being that compromised her ability to grasp that information. This feels like the microcosm of what's happening in the macro experience of what, what are we saying to each other? Are we even listening? And I'm not blaming my mom. Of course, there's something going on that's cognitive and affecting her ability to grasp and hold on to information, but the energy of it is what I'm speaking to of like we're talking past each other, myself included. We're not listening to each other. We're not listening to ourselves. We're not listening to the more than human world, which is such a teacher and mirror for us, if we get quiet enough through practices of attunement and stillness and rest to listen to what is actually being communicated, sometimes through words and sometimes through energy and sometimes through a language that we may have to learn how to be more adept at understanding. And so that's what I'm thinking about with this attunement and it and it, you know, Amy and I talk about how we're students of the bees. And so when I approach my beehives to sit with them, often I'm going to sit and observe and listen, not in an extractive way, like, what do you have to show me? But often I am like, well, what's happening today? What? What might they have to share with me? What do I need to know? Versus the assumption that they need me to go out there to do something for them? Bees have survived for millions of years. They probably don't need me to do anything. And in fact, there are ways i It's likely I disrupt their flow, right? And the way they would actually operate aligned with the laws of Nature. And so I just think about the hum, the vibration, as Amy mentioned, their movements, all of the different things use ways they communicate with one another, this system that they have of communication, and as a student of them, what I can learn from that, to be able to listen more deeply to myself and to listen to others, and what wants to be communicated with me and it it feels like this is connected to The beginning of the book of, you know, what if the bees are our friend and teacher, Ariella daily shared with us? What if they're here to save us, right? Not to burden them and there's even this line in the book of, how could we know how to save them? We're not, we have this hierarchy of human over Earth. How could, how would we ever assume that we knew how to, like, save these creatures and spiritual beings and sentience who've been around for a long time and have adapted to the things that we've done throughout time as humans to disrupt the climate and create chaos like actually, we need to flip the script on that and become students of the more than human world in all of these ways, so that we can remember how to listen. And I say, remember, because I think at some point maybe, well, I know in our lineages, there was a way that we actually were in alignment with the more than human world. So how do we remember those practices and those ways of being to be able to come into this, this place of deep listening, which is so desperately needed at this time.

Sara Artemisia: 18:29

So desperately needed. Thank you for showing that. I'm so sorry about what you're experiencing with your mom, too and what she's going through. And so yeah, just really honor that in your journey. And yeah, and also amazing to me that you can even through that, through the the grief and the challenge of that, see the connection with the bigger macrocosm. And, you know, just like seeing the lessons and the learning that's coming through that as you're going through that, and also that aspect of what you shared about really becoming students of the more than human world. How so that we can remember how to listen? This is so so key. This is so key. This is so vital. This is literally how we get through this transition. This is it, it's that it's listening. It's deeply, deeply listening to Nature, to the more than human world, and just asking, like, how is it that you are doing this, already living in wholeness? We used to remember how to do that. Some people still do around the planet. Amazing. What can we learn from them as well? You know, Indigenous peoples who are living around the planet still in these unbroken lineages of connection. It's incredible, incredible. So this thing, too of what you were talking about, the attunement through sound, movement and vibration. This feels really, really key to me, because there is a lot being lost in translation right now, in the in the words and how people are communicating via words like you spoke to the polarity that's so big right now in the media, and didn't just the human experience of being in relationship. And there's this, this. So for me, personally, Nature communicates a lot through through light and geometry, geometric patterns. And then as a human, I feel like it's my job to translate that into a framework of words that have a much more linear experience, to communicate that outwardly, but there's this this invitation that I feel in that so connected with what you were saying about just like really dropping into this core experience of attunement in the sound and vibration and the stillness, that there is a quality of connectivity and wholeness in the stillness that is completely available. It's totally free for all of us to connect with at any moment. If we can possibly, in whatever way we possibly can, just come into a space of grounding and deep listening, which is so wonderful that the bees give us these direct maps for how to do that. All we have to do, like you're saying, is just learn from them. And I just love that you're apprentices of the bees of the Bee Mystery School is so, so amazing. I'm curious with that, if there's anything that you've specifically learned about sacred geometry in being apprentices of the bees, because they feel so connected to that for me.

Michelle Johnson: 21:21

Yeah, yeah, sacred geometry. So most people know that these create honeycomb, which is the structure, the infrastructure of the hive, and it houses the eggs the queen lays and pollen and nectar and each cell of honeycomb is lined with propolis, which is a protective substance that also seals the hive as well, and likely does other things that we don't, we don't actually know that's feels like part of the mystery to me as well. And they create, most people understand the structure as hexagons, but they don't start out that way. And they start out as circles, and then the bees heat up the wax enough to stretch them to be symmetrical in hexagons. And six is a sacred number, as is eight associated with the bees. And they do that to have more space. I mean, they're they are busy, they are efficient. They are they have their orderly, right? And so the hexagons, on a practical level, are so they can store more resources for their hive and get as much as they they can in that space. The other place the hexagon shows up is when a hive swarms. And I have footage of this from my hives. They swarm every spring, and so when they swarm, they actually swarm out of the hive. And it looks quite chaotic. The Queen, at some point goes out of the hive. If she doesn't go with them, they end up going back to the hive, which has happened here before. Once she exits, they go up into the sky, very high in the sky, and there the bees are actually creating hexagons in the sky, and sometimes they also look like double helixes as well, hexagons to disguise the Queen so that one cannot reach up and grab the Queen, because that they would all follow the Queen then. It is stunning. when I saw it, I took footage of a hive swarming, and I knew that they did that, but I've never seen it, and when I watched it and saw them weaving hexagons in the sky as they ascended to find a resting place, I thought, I don't know what magical creatures are we dealing with here? Like they know how to weave hexagons within the structure of hive, and they know how to do it outside of the hive and the light. I don't I mean, if that's not magical, I don't really know what what is magical, right? And I'm thinking of other things, oh, their orientation, flight, the other symbol. And Amy can share more about this is the lemoniskit, the infinity symbol. That is how they orient to their hive. So when we talk about an orientation dance, it is a dance where foragers, bees, worker bees are preparing to forage. They take these orientation flights for several days before they actually leave the hive to forage for resources. And what they do is a group of bees will come out of the hive. They will dance the infinity symbol as a group. They will then land on the hive, and then they jump off the hive as a group and move further away from it, dance some more the infinity symbol. We think they're working with polarities and the weaving and the not this or that, which is binary thinking, which humans get into all of the time. So it makes it difficult for us to weave things together. Then, because they think it's an either or, and they do this. And eventually what happens is, you can look up into the sky, and they're weaving these huge figure eights. And they do this so they know where home is. They know where to come back to once they leave and get resources. So they're orienting to their home hive through movement, through sound, through pheromones. But this, this orientation dance that they do called the Infinity dance. So that is the other sacred numerology piece. I will bring in the eight, right? And the way that they dance it, it is, it is something to witness them. And often one hive will start it, and then another hive will do it next to them, and they'll all be orienting to their hives at the same time, and the bee yard is a buzz when they do this, and it's just so, I feel so lucky to be able to witness them be in ceremony, which is what it feels like. So I know Amy has more to add.

Amy Burtaine: 25:59

I agree, Michelle, I think it is magical and exquisite. It's exquisite to watch, and it is. It feels like being blessed if you witness a swarm, or if you're in a swarm, like there's something just so incredible about it that's incomparable to any experience I've had. You know, orally, vibrationally, really beautiful. I think the only things I'll add, I'll talk about the personal lessons I've learned, you know, from the bees, about those two pieces of sacred geometry, right? Like the hexagon, when the bees are building their comb, you know, as Michelle said, they want to be efficient, right? They they want to so. So, the great thing about, what's so incredible about is that the hexagon allows them to not have to build double walls, like one wall becomes it's for this comb and it's for this comb, right? Like, and it's for this comb. So it's a way to economize space very efficiently. And so there's something to me about as a lesson myself, like, don't do more sometimes, you know the do less. Don't do more. Do something well, do it in integrity. Do it in a solid way that serves you and your beloveds and the community. And don't overdo it, right? Like, be smart about it. Be careful, you know, don't overuse resources. Use what you need, not more than you need. So there's, like, many lessons in that for me. And then the infinity symbol, the lemniscate, the figure eight, is something that Michelle and I, when we went to a Mystery School about the bees in the UK, we worked with a lot, and is in the book as a practice, that it's a way to travel and practice between polarities, where you can say, I want to explore the polarities of the light and dark, right? I want to move between those. I want to explore the polarities, the false binary of masculine and feminine. I want to move between those and just that sort of meditative practice of walking the figure eight is so profound. And there's ways that you explore, you feel into it. And you could stop on the part where it kind of crosses, right? They call it the not the k-n-o-t, but also the not the n-o-t, the place of of nothing, the place of void. And so, there I have learned in the practice of walking the figure eight some I've had some very deep and powerful meditations and experiences of using that sacred symbol in my own learning and journey and spiritual practice.

Sara Artemisia: 28:23

I love that. To me, it's just it feels like such an accessible Labyrinth, in a way, of this pattern and how this can kind of communicate information that we might not get cognitively, that we just connect directly with this knowing how, how amazing that the bees are doing that all the time. You know, it's just incredible. I loved what you two were both sharing, Michelle, what you were sharing about how being in the binary makes it difficult for us to weave things together. Yes, like, let's shout that from the rooftops. Yes! That is so powerful. It is so powerful. My goodness, yeah. And then that knot thing of what you were just saying as well, Amy, about the the double wall, the lesson about that, about being efficient, about not needing, you know, there's no need to do more than we need to, kind of a thing of, what is it actually to be more in the flow state of our actions, where we're not over giving so we then burn out and get exhausted, but like the bees are teaching that all the time, of being efficient being in the flow state, how powerful that is. And I'd love to hear if you're open to sharing a bit more about how each of you began to remember your connection with Nature?

Amy Burtaine: 29:41

I'll share how I began to remember my connection with the bees. I'll share that because to me, that feels it's so profound for me personally. And Michelle often says, and we say in the book, like, you know that another be tender, say this, that often the bees choose you, right? And so, and I want to say, actually, because I've been meaning to say this like Michelle and I love this podcast, Sara, because how much you are teaching and welcoming and inviting folks into any path in the, in the Nature, Mystery School, right? So if the bees are your thing, it's an incredible path. If the trees or the Mycelium are your thing, it's an incredible path. Like whatever you know, whatever, whoever your teachers are and the bees are. one teacher. We didn't write this book just for beekeepers, but we felt so profoundly called by the lessons they have to offer that we've we really were excited about sharing it with other folks. And so for me, the bees started showing up around in my 20s, and my dreams, I often dream of snakes. It's been a lifelong thing, and I often in my 20s, I started dreaming about bees. And I tell the story about how I had a I was in a sort of an emotionally abusive relationship at the time, and in this dream that I had this boyfriend and I were in a house, and we could hear this, like loud, kind of ominous buzzing in the walls. And in the dream, you're like, are we in danger? Something bad gonna happen? And then this boyfriend punches a hole in the wall, and behind it is this beautiful, live, thriving, crawling hive, and it's dripping with honey. And that I to the day I die, I will not forget that dream, like that dream, it was so profound to me in a in a very obvious lesson, like the relationship wasn't healthy. Get out of the relationship. You're not in danger by what's outside. What's dangerous is what's happening inside, right? Like all of it was so profound, and so bees kept showing up to me in my dreams, and they do to Michelle as well. And then, when I lived in Brazil in my 20s, I had a chance to tend hives and help a neighbor who had 16 hives. And the first time we harvested, and this was an area of Brazil where there was no electricity, so we spent, you know, all day in the heat, you know, harvesting, taking only what we needed, right? But there was lots of honey, too. So we were able to take quite a bit, and then all night long in the shed, uncapping and spinning honey by candlelight. And it was such a beautiful and mystical experience, like the smells, the the tastes, the liquid waterfalls of liquid gold coming out of the spinner, the notes and hints of all that had gone into the honey, like it just was a magical experience. And so for me, the bees have been a connecting experience back to Nature. And I'm so grateful, and have so much gratitude for all that they offer us, their honey, their medicine, their propolis. So, I guess that's the story that I'll share, is that they have been, for me, a deeply connecting way to return to Nature.

Michelle Johnson: 32:42

Yeah, yes, the same for me, as far as the bees and the way they help me remember I'm in union, or could be with Nature, and the way they call us into alignment with the laws of Nature, because they have to understand the elements and the seasons and the polarity of expansion and contraction and some of something about their geography to be able to sustain their hive, and they have to understand when a thunderstorm is coming, if they're a forger to make it back to the hive, or where to hide under a leaf on a tree as to not get destroyed by the rain, right? And they have to understand the cycle of the sun, because they don't forage at night. In the darkness, they forage when the light is out, when the sun is out, and they have to prepare for seasonal shifts quite early. So they start preparing for fall. I'm in North Carolina. They'll begin in mid month. This month, actually July and August, preparing for fall and then preparing for winter. So there's a way that they they, I feel like through their expansive way of understanding the ecosystem and the way to work with it and align with it for their own survival, is something that we also can return to, which is, I'd say, the big lesson that I've learned from them, the other pieces that that came to me in response to this question about Nature, is I have an Oak tree in my backyard that my grandmother, Dorothy, my maternal grandmother, never saw in physical form, and this Tree feels very connected to Dorothy feels like her energy. Feels like her spirit. I've had dreams about her in front of the tree, and Dorothy was a gardener, and she loved growing food, and actually had to survive at different points in her life and to support. The community, and she loved her flowers. And through this Oak tree and lessons, I feel like my grandmother Dorothy has transmitted to me through the ether and from the heavens. I feel like that's been a reconnection to Nature, like where to plant things in my yard, and what plants might be supportive of the pollinators in the yard, like Beebalm or Catnip or Hyssop, which is blooming right now, or the Echinacea is blooming, and the pollinators are all over it, right? How to plant things? And so I feel like, you know, I have a connection to Nature that is old. And I actually think we all do. And again, it is a process of remembering. And yet, if I, if I think about the the ancestor who has taught me the most about tending land, and not just for myself, but for the collective, and not just for humans, but the more than human world, it's my grandmother, and so I feel like she's a connector in that way, just as the bees are, just as bodies of water are for me, just as the trees are and deep roots and a connection and feeling rooted and grounded even when there's mayhem happening around me, just as the air is and fire, which is an element I work with the most, I would say all of these things connect me back to something that I have always known. And when you ask the question, I was kind of like, well, yes, we are fractured and disconnected from Nature, for sure. And yet, there's a way I've always felt held by the more than human world, even in my like, I want to get out of here, because this place doesn't make any sense to me. I don't understand. I still know on some level, somewhere in my being, have always understood I am held by the more than human world. I'm held by spirit. I'm held by ancestors, right? There's actually we were talking about weaving, a weaving that went into my being here now, and which has everything to do with with Nature and the way that it weaves, and the different players within Nature that are working in concert to actually hold us all. So that is I'm calling in my grandma Dorothy and the Oak tree in the backyard,

Amy Burtaine: 37:21

Michelle, I just have to add, because I know this about you, and I love this about you, that I think your intuition is very connected to Nature, that you receive signs from Nature all the time, like Michelle always finds hearts in Nature and feathers everywhere, and she notices things like, she's very attuned to if an animal or a bird or a thing like so. So I feel like she's very connected and her into and Nature is speaking to her through her intuition and moments where she's like, Oh, of course, right now, I found this feather. It's really cool.

Michelle Johnson: 37:50

Thanks. Amy, thanks, bestie.

Sara Artemisia: 37:55

I love that. And so wonderful your grandmother, Dorothy, but it's just so wonderful that you that you know her, that you have that direct connection with her and with the oak, through the oak she still lives on and and the power of the dream time for both of you, the power of the dream time I'm like, for all of us, the power of the dream time so powerful to listen to our dreams And what they are communicating so powerful I can't even count how many times the dream world has informed for me something about, maybe, like, the dynamic of a relationship that is going on that I wasn't even quite aware of. And then it's like, oh, let's just take a peek under the hood and see what's really happening there. Or even, you know, just this connection of the beat. What was on the other side? The bees, right? It's like, there they were, right there. So, and this thing, Michelle, I think it was you who said this, how the bees help call us into alignment with the laws of Nature, that is amazing. I'm like all of us. That's such a huge invitation for all of us about what is helping, what is calling us to come into alignment with Nature. It may be the bees. It may be the plants, you know, mycelial network, like, whatever that is there, it might be the elements, maybe, maybe whoever, if you're listening to this, it might be the elements, like, it might be something that is more elemental even, but there is something out there that we can attune to, that we can co regulate to, that helps us reconnect with an experience of wholeness. Right now, it's available. And so I just love that you two have are doing, and have been doing, and are going to continue to do this deep dive with the bees in this way. This is so powerful. Yeah, so powerful. And so I know you have that there's this practice of the telling the bees. I was curious if you could explain a little bit about that and what you personally would wish to tell the bees.

Michelle Johnson: 39:51

It's funny you asked this question, but not because we're aligned and attuning to one another. I wrote down tell the bees earlier, and I wrote down tell the bees about my mom, which I haven't done since there's been a shift in her health. And telling the bees is an ancient practice that shows up in different lineages, actually. And I'll also say, as we talk about this, that, and you just mentioned the Sara you know, maybe it's the bees, maybe it's the mycelial network, maybe it's the trees, whatever it maybe it's elemental. I think you can apply the practice I'm about to describe, and we're about to describe to a different being in the more than human world, and telling the bees is a specific practice that began with when someone would die, pass away, transition. Then it was said that the people close to that person who transitioned needed to go out and tell the beast about this transition, and there were rituals where sometimes people would turn the beehives to face north, which in many lineages, is associated with ancestors, the Earth element, and the doorway we will go through when we transition from these bodies. Some rituals included covering the hive with black crepe paper. I've also heard of red crepe paper as well. And so the idea was, if you didn't tell the bees that, something more would happen, right? Something might go awry. And really, as I learned about this practice, and as we learned about it. We were, you know, thinking about how the bees and I do a fair amount of work around grief, so how the bee and grief tending, and how the bees can align with us in this process of of grieving that everyone I know is pretty much doing in some way, whether or not they're conscious of it. And so the the application was, tell the bees so they can be in collaboration with you as you grieve, as you acknowledge this transition. The practice expanded throughout time, so it wasn't, you know, became about sort of any transition. We can tell the bees about any transition or struggle we're moving through. It also has been extended to celebrations, right? Telling the bees of celebratory news. And I have told the bees I'm thinking about over the last year, about so many things I have sat with them in relationship to the multiple genocides that are happening in the world in connection to climate chaos as well and and just the dismantling of rights and protections for whole groups of people. I have sat with them when I've lost a hive and sat and shared with another hive of that transition and loss and the conditions in the in the more than human world that are been created by humans that perhaps led to that, like extreme temperatures, extraordinary temperatures, cold temperatures that the bees here are not, not used to. I have told them of loss, of physical loss, of losing people who are close to me in my life. And then I once, I tell them, I just sit and and watch and see if there's anything they want to say to me. And one day, I was talking to them about the multiple genocides happening on our planet. In particular, I was talking about Gaza, and I knocked on the hive, which is once, which is what you can do, and then I sat next to them. This wasn't during the winter time, and what I observed was they continued to do their work. So even as I shared about this, they can, it was warm enough for them to be out a little bit, and they take cleansing flights during the wintertime as to keep a clean hive and relieve themselves. So I was watching them, and I was like, they're still dancing. They're still working. They're still working with the light. They're going back into the dark. They're coming back into the light. They hear me. I was clear. They heard me, and they're still in ceremony, and there was something so profound in that moment for me, of continue to do your work, continue to do your practice, continue to share your medicine, even as your heart is so deeply broken by all of the things spinning that don't make sense to me or my body or my spirit or my soul, and so now what I want to do, and I'll likely do it later today or this weekend, is tell them about my mom and the things that feel overwhelming because they're. Deep grief about who she was and who she is now, and I want to share that with them, and not to burden them, but to be in relationship with them in that way, because they have the capacity to hold things in a way that I think is sort of like spiritual practice for me. Can hold that which I do not believe I can hold. Bees can hold and transmute. Nature can hold and transmute and alchemize and compost, right? And all of these ways we understand, which, I think is the benefit of telling the bees, because they are aware of everything that is going on. I don't even have to speak it. They know it. They feel it. So that was a long answer, but that is what I want to tell them, and that's a little about the practice.

Amy Burtaine: 45:47

Thank you. I was I'm so agreeing with what you just said, Michelle, that like I think they do know everything, because they are vibrational beings, and they pick up on the vibrations of the planet, of us, of what's happening in the micro and the macro. I absolutely believe that they are tuned in and aware on so many levels that are different than our sort of blended human instruments rights, which we can build and grow our capacity with. I love this question, Sara, like, what do you want to tell the bees? And I always, I always just want say thank you a thousand times. Thank you a million times, thank to you. Thank you so much for everything you do. I mean, we wouldn't eat without the bees. Thank you for the food. Thank you for the flowers. Thank you for the the teachings. Thank you for the beauty. Thank you for the work. Thank you for the roles. Thank you for the metaphors. Thank you for the sacredness, like all of the things, the honey God, the medicines, you know, and I so I want to do that, and then I also want to I want to apologize. I want to say I'm so sorry for this messy, clunky, self centered, human mess that we have drawn you into and that we do things. And I even felt this as a as a bee tender like I always said, like I speak rudimentary being, because I don't always understand what they're telling me. I don't understand what they need, and in my inability to translate or understand, I cause harm, even though I don't want to. And there's deep lessons for us in that as humans and what we do with each other, across cultures and across identities and across lines of lines of difference in my way and this way that, you know, just so I want to apologize for the messy, clunky, lack of subtle and intuitive ways that I show up and that we show up. I, you know, I wish for them that they didn't have to experience that. And I do want to say because Michelle mentioned this, and we've said it a couple times here, one of the big lessons for me, for us in this book, is that everything the bees make is medicinal. Michelle mentioned medicine, and one of the things that we feel is really important for humanity at this time is, you know, the bees make things that are medicinal for the health of the hive, and they also give it freely. We need to be careful about not overtaking it and being not taking it from them. But their Propolis is medicinal. Their wax is medicinal, their honey is medicinal, their bee bread is medicinal. The pollen they collect like everything is medicinal. And what we are really want human beings to think about is, what is your medicine at this time in the planet, both, what are the medicines you need that help heal you? And they can be many things, but what are the medicines you have to offer? Because so often, I think, because of, you know, dominant culture and messages from all the capitalism and the noise, it's like, well, I'm not good enough, or I don't do that. Well, if I only do this, or I'm not like so and so, or if I could just go to school for 20 years, then I could be good enough to do like, and it's like, no, we need your medicine now. We need your gifts. Now we need whatever it is. And I often say like, I'm a student of clown, like, if you're a person who makes people laugh, that's a powerful medicine. It's a beautiful medicine, right? If you were a space holder, a healer, a therapist, a body worker, whatever it is that you do. You know, there's so many ways to bring our gifts to other humans, but also to the more than human world. So we have this like deep call to folks to please share your medicine with the world at this time and don't like hide it, or, you know, think you're not you're not ready, you're not good enough. We we need it now.

Sara Artemisia: 49:48

Yes, thank you. Yeah, and Nature is such a powerful mirror in this way about how each being in Nature is not ever. Trying to be a different being in Nature ever it is being of itself fully. And how beautiful is that in the collaborative diversity of the healthy, thriving ecosystem, when every being is themselves fully, so much for us to learn around that there's so much, I mean, there's so much in what you just shared, too, of how everything that the bees make is medicinal. To say thank you and apologize to them. So powerful. And Michelle, also what you were sharing about telling the bees about your mom, and just that entire practice of telling the bees how incredibly powerful that is and how they have the capacity to hold things. I really, really feel that, and especially for, I mean, honestly, especially for anyone, and especially for folks who maybe grew up without, like, secure attachment figures, being able to go to the largest secure attachment figure in the world, which is the Earth itself. It is Nature. It's like that is so powerful to be able to just sink into that often, I will just go out and lay on the ground as much as possible and just feel held by that wholeness, so solid, so whole, and how powerful, how powerful that is. And I was definitely crying when you were sharing about that experience about the grieving, about the grief, the grief tending, about how the lesson that you heard and saw in that from them was grieve and continue to do your work, that they are still in ceremony, this message of continue to do your practice and continue to do your dance in the grief, like do both all of it right. Feel the grief, feel it. Feel it fully, and continue to do your work and continue to practice and continue to dance. So, so powerful, so powerful. So recognizing, especially because, well, you two both clearly work in many dimensions, and in your work, in racial equity, and in anything that's coming to mind, I'm really curious, how do the bees support you in your life's work?

Amy Burtaine: 52:15

Okay, I'll start. So as a white woman who is on a journey to dismantle my own internalized white supremacy and work with other white folks in showing up for racial justice and being, you know, involved in I think a number of things. I mean, I think one of the things that certainly whiteness has taught me is do move and go fast, right? And I do that, and that that's for other reasons as well, but that's certainly something I recognize as a racial, racial teaching, right? And that I know best, and I can just do my thing and it'll be right, right? Like there's all kinds of unlearning that I need to do. And I think that these for me show me always to slow down, that I actually don't know what's right or what is being experienced, or what's in the field all the time, right? So one thing is, and I talk about this in the book, like, every time I move too fast around the hives, I get stung every single time, hands down. And they often sting me somewhere that they need me to have a message. So once I remember having this, really, I had a day where I was like, I'd been leading a bunch of affinity spaces, and it was just really tense, and a lot was going on, and there's kind of some tension in my household, and I remember being like, I just want to tell some people like it is. I just want to be able to tell them like it is. And I went into my hive too fast just to top off some sugar water or something that I needed to do that day. And I didn't put my veil on because I thought, you know, I just have to go and do this quick thing. But I did it so fast it'd be in if he immediately came out and stung me on the mouth, on the mouth, and it was like, maybe you need to tend to your words. Maybe you need to slow down. Maybe not like this, in this way. Maybe that's not going to be effective the energetic way that you're approaching this day, this group, this work, this moment, right? So they've taught me a lot about slowing down. They also that that lesson of attunement. I mean, when I am doing my best work as a facilitator, I am paying attention to the group. And this is something I actually, again, want to brag on Michelle, who's a really phenomenal space holder in this way, who really reads and feels the undertones of groups in ways that I've experienced very rarely in my life, but it's something that I'm constantly learning from the bees, is how to feel the energy of a group and move with what is needed in the moment, not what my idea was, not what I thought needed to happen, but what is happening now in this moment with this collective so that's what I'll say.

Michelle Johnson: 54:49

Thanks, Amy. I am present to what Amy just said about facilitation and space holding and how often I can feel a. Group before I I mean, I work one to one with people, and do a lot of group work in many different spaces. So racial equity work and yoga work and yoga and social justice and healing practices and shamanic work, lot of different things with with groups. And I often I can feel a group before I get there, in this way that Amy said. And then when I'm there, I can feel what is underneath the surface and and sometimes what needs to be brought up to the surface. And also I contemplate right timing, which in my relationship with bees, and it relates to what Amy said about, how am I moving? When am I moving? What decisions am I making about going into the hive or just standing next to it? Do I need to, is it necessary, right, this action I'm about to take, all of that comes into space, holding and facilitation, right? Do I need to say this thing in this group? Will it benefit the group, or is it just in service of me? And really, is it in service of me and to be intentional about what I'm sharing and the timing of that in space and how it might land right intent and impact, which is a lesson from the bees. And the other thing I was thinking about being able to sense into what's under the surface and needs to bubble up is the way that we've spoken about bees and their vibration, and how we're not bees and so how we have to observe and listen and attune and watch that all of those skills come into play When I'm holding space for an individual or a group, particularly if they're communicating in some way that I don't understand, or they're not actually saying the thing they need to say, and they're they're not getting to the thing that's under the surface. And so I've like watched the bees and the way they communicate and contemplated, what are they saying to me, right? And then in groups, what needs to be said, or what needs to have space, so we'll be in silence. What is the vibrational tone of this group? Has it shifted the bees? Amy spoke about the pitch changes when when they don't have a queen. It changes when we move too fast. It changes when it's there, when there's some when there are conditions in the hive that are not healthy. It's disharmonious, the pitch, the tone, the smell, even of the hive is you can tell a lot from that, before you even go into it, how many bees are moving in and out, and the other way. There are many, but that I'll mention, the way the bees support my life's work is the their roles. Each bee has a role, and they move through these different roles in their life cycle. And all of it is to support the hive. And I would say the through line in all of my work is about healing the hive, healing the collective in some way, not that I have the power to heal the entire collective, but making space for us to come into our own healing and to contemplate how we will aid the healing of the collective. That is my journey that touches everything I do. So the bees have taught me a lot about the different roles we can play, and also discernment around what is needed right now and what role do I need to play, and to adapt and shift. Because bees can adapt back to a former role that they played, if that's what the hive needs, I find humans pretty rigid in the way that you spoke about. Like, I find humans, like, contracted and rigid a lot of the time. And like, this is the thing that I do. Well, what if that's not what's needed? What if we actually need something else? Can you be curious enough about what that is, given the conditions in place or the context? Can we expand and be malleable in this way that bees are based on sustaining the hive, not an individual bee? They have taught me a lot about that, which to me, feels connected to my dharma as well. That's my dog, Jasper and Judy, and being in alignment with with my dharma, which feels connected to, what role do I play now? So they support me, and although I bring them into almost all of my teachings with people, they know they're going to hear about the bees from me, because they're such teachers and mirrors as we've spoken about. And you know, they are part of the medicine that sustains me as I do my work.

Sara Artemisia: 59:52

Wonderful. Thank you both so much for sharing that. And yeah, so much in that, so much in that. Definitely that aspect around moving with what is needed in the moment. Timing, right aligned timing. This is so important. This is so important and discerning, not only the the role, but just really listening to what the moment is asking for, really listening to it. So, so great when I think Amy, you were talking about how the bees they are, I can't remember who was, but talking about the pitch, the tone, the smell, how it shifts. And like, humans are doing that all the time too. I'm like, people, people, our whole society is constructed as if that's not happening. I'm like, people are doing that all the time, all the time. So it's so great that the bees can, can just show show us that directly, that aspect of the adaptability, this is so key. I feel like this is so key for the time that we're in right now is really, first of all, having a mirror that it's possible to be adaptable. And then secondarily, how do we do it? And it's like, well, the bees can show us how. And so then we can look at that. And then and then see that as a model and see, okay, how can I do that in my own human way? Kind of a thing. This is so powerful. So yeah, thank you both so so much for joining us today on the podcast. And so I'd love to hear if you could share with us, how can people find out more about you, your life's work, your book, anything else that you feel called to share?

Michelle Johnson: 1:01:22

Well, Sara, I want to thank you. You are lovely, and I feel so grateful to be in connection and community with you, and to weave and in this way and the beyond whatever might come from this. So I wanted to say that to you. Thank you. Thanks for being a space holder, and thanks for sharing your lessons with the world, and thanks for your deep listening in all the ways and your medicine. So thank you. And people can find me at michellecjohnson.com, my website is a great way to find me. We have many events there that are related to the wisdom of the hive, and then I have a bunch of other things that are also related to it, even if they're not book, book events, again, they're all about healing. And I'm also on Instagram@skillinaction, which is a title of my first book, which came out in 2018 and I update people there, and I have a weekly newsletter that goes out that I love writing. I've heard it's like having a cup of tea with me and reading, you know, it's like learning more about my internal landscape for people. So people can sign up for that through my website if they wish to find me that way. And, yeah, I know Amy and I will be offering some other things in the future as well, connected to the bees and teachings from the bees and lessons. So that's how people can can find me. Amy, do you want to share?

Amy Burtaine: 1:02:57

Yeah, I have not been very forward facing on social media and whatnot. So I'm a little harder to track down what I'm doing, although, certainly anything I do in concert with Michelle can be found on her website. But I will say this because it is in the plans to rework my website one day, and I'm starting a body of work called The Radical Cackle project, which is about play for adults. So I would just say, as I move forward in the world, just look up radical cackle and see what shows up. That's where I'll be.

Sara Artemisia: 1:03:30

Well. Thank you both so much. Yeah, definitely so wonderful to connect today. And yeah, thank you both so so much.

Amy Burtaine: 1:03:39

Thank you, Sara, for your work in the world.

Michelle Johnson: 1:03:42

Yeah, thank you Sara.

Sara Artemisia: 1:03:45

And thanks so much for listening and joining us today on the Plant Spirit Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it, and please follow to subscribe, leave a review and look forward to seeing you on the next episode.