Episode 3 - Breath Relax Joy Serve - Double Bass and Beyond with Chris Wood

Gary Upton talks with Chris Wood who formed Medeski Martin & Wood in 1991 with Medeski and Billy Martin.  Wood also collaborates with his brother, Oliver Wood in the band The Wood Brothers.  Gary of Upton Bass and Chris discuss Chris's musical approach he shares from lessons, and a long musical career that Chris  has learned along the way.  Bringing  his musical awareness to new heights as he continues to grow and  as a player. 

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:18

Hey guys, this is scary here with episode number three of the double bass and beyond today, I'm very excited to introduce my guest and look forward to getting to know this person a little bit more. Let me bring him in. Hey Chris, how are you there?

Speaker 2 0:36

All right . I'm in.

Speaker 1 0:36

You're in. What's going on?

Speaker 2 0:38

Hey man . How you doing?

Speaker 1 0:39

I'm doing good. How are you?

Speaker 2 0:41

Good. Good to meet you.

Speaker 1 0:42

You too. I've got the , uh, I've got the recording going. I hope you don't mind, you know , put you right on the spot. It it'd be bad if you said

Speaker 2 0:48

No. Oh, no, it's totally fine. Uh , am I , is this working? Am I sounding all right ?

Speaker 1 0:52

Yeah. Yeah , you sound perfect. You look good. Um, so I was just , uh, I just did a little , uh, intro, but I didn't say who you were. Uh , what's fun for me day , uh , is, you know , um, I was trying to think of how to say this in a non funny sound way, but I'm gonna say it the funny sound way. Um , you know , Travis book, Victor rutin , uh , Joel Corton, a bunch of these guys that I'm doing. They're they're guys I work with they're they're , they're they're friends. Right. And what I think is fun about this podcast and the next one I'm doing, is there , you know, you you're, you're a person that I've maybe passed a couple texts over the years with, but we've never connected. Um, and here we are connecting hopefully to talk base and, and to get a relationship going. Um, and , but, but I don't know you yet. I mean, all I know is listening to you, so cool . You know, it's kind , it's , it's kind of, I , I can't for , for me with base envy, it's like, I mean , I was in high school listening to Meki Martin and wood and right . You know, wanting to do the , uh, wanting to do the , the base thing. So tell us , uh, so this is Chris wood , uh, wood brothers and Meki Martin and wood. I don't know how else you'd wanna introduce yourself other than obviously you are Chris wood, how's it going through ?

Speaker 2 2:05

Yeah. Chris wood. Uh, yeah, I've been playing bass a long time.

Speaker 1 2:11

When did you start playing

Speaker 2 2:11

Still doing it? I got into the bass and kind of , I was always into , you know, music from an early age. Um, you know, I was just encouraged take lessons. I started piano and clarinet, all kind kinds of things . My brother Oliver, big brother. He , uh, our , our FA well, let me start with our father. He was a , he was actually by profession, a scientist, but he was back in Harvard in , um, sort of the folk , uh, days of the late 50 . He was at Harvard. He had a radio show and he could have been a musician. And he played with Joe Baez a lot back in those days and he had his own band. And so we grew up with hearing him, you know, singing and play guitar around the house. And you , a lot of the stuff you would hear, like on Dylan's first record, you know, that kind of like folk repertoire anyway. So we grew up with him playing guitar. I think, you know, we both were influenced by that. He was kind of like our first live music. And, but then for some reason, my, my brother expressed wanting to play bass and , uh, they got him an electric bass for Christmas and it for a while . And then he realized that he really wanted to play guitar. So the bass was lying around and he showed me, you know, how to play the blues so we could play together

Speaker 1 3:28

And

Speaker 2 3:28

Nice. That's kind of what started it.

Speaker 1 3:31

All right . So the , so the early

Speaker 2 3:32

It sort of fell into my lap.

Speaker 1 3:34

So it was a hand me down from, from all of it was

Speaker 2 3:36

A hand down and I , and I think it was just one of those things that timing was perfect. I was ready to take a deep dive into anything that came along that

Speaker 1 3:43

Yeah . Gimme something . So how old would you be there at that point? Do you remember?

Speaker 2 3:47

That was , uh, God , I remember I was in seventh grade. So what does that make me 12 or something? There's

Speaker 1 3:56

Something, something about that time though. That's that's, I , I hear that as a steady from a lot of people they're in that like preteen teenage time, the instrument that many musicians invest in at that time ends up being like for whatever reason, their soul passion.

Speaker 2 4:11

Yeah . Is that a pattern? I don't, I don't know . I just thought partly my personality, you know, I was just , I was gonna work hard at whatever came along and I got passionate about

Speaker 1 4:20

It. Well, I think, are , are we looking for something at that age? You know what I mean? Like, this is a thing I'm gonna do it, so

Speaker 2 4:27

Yeah . Or we're just open, our minds are open, you know, we haven't figured it out, so. Right.

Speaker 1 4:32

Do you play other, do you play other , uh , instruments?

Speaker 2 4:36

I mean, I like to play guitar and piano, but I not. Well, you know, yeah . You

Speaker 1 4:40

Wouldn't call yourself a guitarist or pianist.

Speaker 2 4:43

No, no, no. I mean, I it's like, I, you know, I'm quite versed in all the theory and so I know where all the notes are, but to actually, which is kind of, what's cool about it. I mean, I think all of my brother sometimes mentions that he really likes my guitar playing because I don't play guitar. I just know where the notes are. And so it's like, I don't, I don't know that all the guitar cliches you, that you would learn, you know, you're like, oh, I've learned from Steve Cropper . I've learned from this. And Hendrix does that. You know, like I don't , I'm not versed in any of that. I haven't studied any of that, but I know where all the notes are, the way I know all the notes are the bass . So just sort of play it Nice . The way I instinctively would play a bass , I guess, in a way.

Speaker 1 5:27

Nice. So you said you were last week, you were touring, right?

Speaker 2 5:32

I'm touring now. We're, we're in Philly. I'm at the Fillmore in Philly right now. Oh, cool. We were in Connecticut last night at , uh , new Haven

Speaker 1 5:38

Playing with,

Speaker 2 5:40

With the wood brothers. Okay.

Speaker 1 5:42

With the wood brothers. Nice.

Speaker 2 5:43

Yeah. I'm on tour with my brother right now. Yeah .

Speaker 1 5:44

Awesome. Um, and so you're in Philly. Where are you going next?

Speaker 2 5:49

Uh, we're Boston tomorrow night house of blues. Uh , we're ending up in New York city at Webster hall.

Speaker 1 5:56

Nice. And how are , how are the crowds? I mean, they're probably pretty packed and appreciative during these times to be able to get in there. Right.

Speaker 2 6:01

It's a weird time, you know, it's still very weird. I think people are feeling very uncertain , um, not just about their own personal risks with, with the pandemic and the virus and all of that. But, but also at this point we been in the pandemic for a while and so people are very aware that bands it's really touch and go. I mean, people are canceling tours, right. Because someone gets sick in , in the band. And I think it's , uh , people are a little more wary to buy tickets in advance. Yeah . Fair don't know what's gonna happen.

Speaker 1 6:35

Well, yeah. Well you have people canceling like the, a before because of someone testing PO positive . Right ,

Speaker 2 6:40

Exactly. Yeah. Or, you know, on this store , the weather was the be snow storm affect our tour as well. So , um, yeah, it's a lot of , uh , it's like a gauntlet out there.

Speaker 1 6:53

That's funny

Speaker 2 6:54

Things that, that make it challenging right now. Yeah . But, but on the other hand, the flip side, everyone is so grateful , uh, on stage and in the audience, like just where everybody at a concert these days couldn't be happier because

Speaker 1 7:08

Yeah. Well

Speaker 2 7:09

We're a little , it seems so precious, you know,

Speaker 1 7:11

Little , yeah. A little spoiled before. Right. Do do anything anywhere. However, the heck we feel when , when you take that, when you take that , don't take

Speaker 2 7:18

For granted . Right . And we think this could be the last one, like this show, maybe someone will get it tomorrow and then yeah . That's it last show of the tour. And I've heard a lot of bands express that, how it just heightened their awareness on

Speaker 1 7:30

Stage to be, to be in the moment artistically .

Speaker 2 7:32

Yeah . They're just appreciative of what's happening. It's like we get to play another show. Yeah . Yeah .

Speaker 1 7:38

So tour finishes in New York. Yeah . And that's, that's in a couple weeks.

Speaker 2 7:43

Uh, well, we've been on tour already for like a week and a half, so. Okay. Um, yeah, so it's just Boston and New York and then we're done.

Speaker 1 7:50

Nice. And then is there another one after that planned ?

Speaker 2 7:53

Oh yeah. Nice . Yep . Yep . It's all . Yeah. We're the next tour is like , uh , you know, Arizona and the west playing Denver and I can't even remember all the dates, but yeah. Nice. Yep .

Speaker 1 8:05

Nice. And so you're playing exclusively standup, you know, double base on that or you , I

Speaker 2 8:10

Both

Speaker 1 8:11

Electric both.

Speaker 2 8:12

Okay . I play both. Yeah. Yeah .

Speaker 1 8:13

Now do you play four string when you play electric or five?

Speaker 2 8:16

Uh, four. I like four

Speaker 1 8:18

That , that five things starts to make . And you think it's almost a guitar, but it's not right.

Speaker 2 8:23

Uh, I don't know . I mean the five I've heard people play it. Great. Um, yep . Uh, obviously there's a lot of incredible five string players. I don't know for me, I just, the tone I like to get , um, to make that low note sound good. Then I always felt like our S the tones of the other ones. Like, I didn't mind , I didn't mind playing a higher note, you know, if I wanted to go lower than the key of E you know, that's like, it's like C sounds good. As long as you EQ it. Right. You know?

Speaker 1 8:53

Yeah. Isn't it funny though how the Sring and the setup can try and be all the same, but once you add that B there, something about how your finger passes through the string. I don't know what it is, but like the E stringing starts sounding more soft, like an, a stringing , because it's almost , I don't know . That's my, my analysis, like having that B stringing there to land on throws off my whole sound on the bottom of mean I

Speaker 2 9:14

To E yeah. Obviously I've heard people that are amazing at it and they know just when to use that low string, you know ? Yep . They don't overdo it and they save it for the moment, like, oh , okay . There it is .

Speaker 1 9:24

Yep .

Speaker 2 9:24

There it is . I mean, the got

Speaker 1 9:26

Well, and a lot of 'em are very positioned based players where they, you know, they'll be shortening up the movement around the instrument. It seems because , because they've got that B string , you know?

Speaker 2 9:34

Yeah. Yeah. And there's something to it, you know, to play, to play a , a baseline down low on the next a and C , but then to play the same line up on the neck. Yep . Higher up. Of course we have different options. You have different notes available to you. So, and it sounds different too . It makes, it makes the string sound different.

Speaker 1 9:54

So , uh, I don't really, really , you know , I try to keep this pretty casual, so I don't really have any like, loaded questions, but I was gonna ask you, like, so what's exciting you with the bass right now. You know what I mean? Like, you're gonna go on, I , I , here's my imagination. You're gonna go on stage , you know, musically makes some very special moments , uh, and maybe it's those special moments, but like, what's, what's exciting, you know, to think of whether it's playing tonight or like, what are you kind of working on? Like, what's, what's your mindset with that?

Speaker 2 10:21

Um, I'm super excited just about this . This is I've, you know, when I teach and , and , um, and I just put out a masterclass with discover double base . Um, nice . And this has helped my talk about a lot, cuz I'm just passionate about it and it's cool, but just, it's basically , um, less to do with base specifically, but just how to play music. I've always been fascinated by this idea that, you know, every once in a while we get these magic nights on stage, you know , amazing night where everything just clicks and um, it's like a gift, you know, for some reason everything's easy, everything's musical, everything's exciting, beautiful, whatever it is, but it's effortless and it's just, you know, a perfect night and they , um, they come every once in a while, whether we know it or not, we don't , it's unpredictable. Right. But I've always been for fascinated . They're like, well, but why like what is, what is that? What obviously there's elements that are out of our control and um, you know, some nights the monitors just sound great and the speakers, the house, the room, the instruments, for whatever reason, everything's just vibrating, just right .

Speaker 1 11:34

Everything, everything feel

Speaker 2 11:36

It . And it's effortless. Right? So this , so certain things that are out of our control, but then there's other things that, that are in our control. And so I was , was interested, well, what, what are those other things? And can I work on those so that I can have more nights like that? Hmm . Like I wanna learn, teach myself how to be in that zone.

Speaker 1 11:55

Do you mean, so are , are you saying like learn to control the variables? We can the best to try and get ourselves into that space of being

Speaker 2 12:04

Variables we can. Cause I there's very , um, very simple practical things. Like if you analyze you really start thinking, well, what what's happening in one of those good gigs or one of those great moments, you know? And I sort of broke it down and I was like, okay, well the obvious one is you , you're not holding your breath. You're breathing, it's foundational the breath. And then it's like, well, okay, do I hold my breath? When like , if something's difficult, do I hold my yep .

Speaker 1 12:35

Kinda like , that's kinda like sprinting, right. You're

Speaker 2 12:40

Yeah. Or just , you know, like, like if you're, we hold our breath for all kinds of reason , you know, we get tense and , and you hold your breath cuz you think something's hard or, or you want it to be good, so bad that you're just on the edge of your seat kind of in your mind. And yeah . You know , uh , but so I've realized, okay, that's the first one it's so simple. It's foundational. It's like involved in all kinds of , uh , mediums and practices and meditation and whatnot for , for

Speaker 1 13:07

Sure. Right. Yes .

Speaker 2 13:08

You know, and you hear it all the time and music, you know , just , just breathe, they're relaxed , breathe . You know, teachers say that and it's like, okay, do I really practice that? Right . So then it's like, you just like, whatever you happen to be working on, whether it's a scale, whether it's a rhythm, just it's like, okay, I'm gonna make the breath a priority over the correctness of the thing I'm working on. Yeah. Until I've mastered the breath part. And then after that, get the actual correctness in my fingers, whatever is like the scale or the intonation, whatever I'm practicing. Right. And just prioritize breath, prioritize breath. It's like, okay , can I? And he realize very quickly if you haven't done this before, that how bad we are at it. There's, there's things that we are actually pretty comfortable with, but we just have these habits. Yeah . Our breath . So it's , it's incredible what that does, you know? So that's just the first thing. And then as I kept thinking, but then we'll okay, what's your body doing? Similar thing. Teachers always say, relax, relax. It's like we get obviously. Yeah . And it's sort of to be more specific. It's not just a sense of relaxing, but cause that makes you sounds like you're like just chilling out on a couch or something, but, but really what it is , uh , without nerding out too much about it, it's, it's really a stillness. It's like the only way to be prepared to do anything because you don't know really what's coming next is to be perfectly still. So, but you can actually be still sort of, at least in your mind and your body in a way, even though you're in motion. So even though you might be playing a tune, you know, when you're tense, you've committed to a, to a muscle you've committed to a direction, but if you're relaxed and still you're not committed to any direction and , and therefore you're ready for any direction for whichever direction comes. Right. Yeah. So it's sort of, it's just a more nuanced way of saying relaxed. You know, it's kind of , I do , I do like

Speaker 1 15:04

A kind of centered in a way.

Speaker 2 15:06

Exactly. Like literally like I'll do this , um , exercise. I just tell someone like stand on your feet and um, get ready to jump forwards backwards to the right and to the left all at the same time. Hmm . And if you do that, it's like a meditation. So if you do that for like five minutes, just stand there and, and figure out how to be ready to go in all those directions at the same time, you literally get centered because you can't commit to any one direction because they ready for the other

Speaker 1 15:38

Direction. Right. It's so easy to get the ski poles in your hands, right. To think, to jump forward. Yeah.

Speaker 2 15:42

You're like, I'm gonna get ready, but like to , he's

Speaker 1 15:44

Gonna say forward, he's gonna say left. I know which one he is gonna do.

Speaker 2 15:47

Yeah. So it's a little counterintuitive until you experience the feeling and then you, I was like, oh , the only way to be ready is to be still.

Speaker 1 15:55

Yeah .

Speaker 2 15:56

And not, cuz you don't know what's gonna happen next. Right. You know, like that's the mindset that I think makes those great nights is , is really, truly feeling comfortable with the fact that you don't know what's gonna happen next. Right. And trusting that whenever it does happen, you're gonna just react in the , in the best possible way. Cuz you're ready by being still and you're relaxed and you're breathing. You're like, ah , you know?

Speaker 1 16:21

Yeah, interesting.

Speaker 2 16:22

So that's just, that's just a body, you know? And then of course like what's going on in here, that's where it gets really squirly and interesting.

Speaker 1 16:31

It's

Speaker 2 16:31

A , and I basically, I've sort of tried to describe it in many different ways over the years, but I've sort of just come down to it's are you enjoying it? So there's this thing I'll do, it's like a meditation in a way. Anytime I do it , anything during my day, especially things that are maybe mundane or unpleasant or even during an argument, I have this like challenge I'll do, it's like, can, can you enjoy this moment? Even though you might be doing something you dislike and you very quickly realize like, okay, if I'm not enjoying it, well, I'm like holding my breath and I'm thinking a million miles an hour because I want to be anywhere. But right here, cause I'm not enjoying whatever's happening . Right.

Speaker 1 17:16

Or you , or you become more of a logical technician and less of a human.

Speaker 2 17:21

Yeah. You're just, you're not , you're not experiencing things with your senses. You're thinking about stuff. Yeah . And you're like either bummed out about the past or you're worried about what's gonna happen in the future, but you're not actually experiencing So on . I , I don't think you can think and pay attention to your senses at the same time. It's sort of one or the other, you can pay attention to what's going on in here or you can pay attention to what's coming through your nerves and your eyes and your ears. And you know, so I think enjoyment is, is about Simply paying attention to that. Yeah. And , and then something that's, you know, mundane or unpleasant suddenly becomes interesting cuz you're actually experiencing it and it's like a dance,

Speaker 1 18:02

You know ? Yeah. Well it's, it's fun . It's funny. I was to , to share. I always liked, I have to relate. Right. But I've been in taking dance lessons quite , uh , often and man, perfect analogy. I tell you what, like there's like the kernel of what we are trying to do and then the execution of, and then maybe let's say this is the completion or maybe I'm just trying to get these two circles to be over each other. Yeah . And when that voice opens up and it's like, ah , I , uh , or you know, you apologize. Right. Let's I find , oh, I'm sorry. You're right. Or , or I start to calculate, where does the hand go? Where does the foot go? Um, I, for me and, and I I'm learning, you're helping kind of really put this thought home a little bit for me, you know, I really have to quiet all that calculation it's going on. And then, and then you're completely also not enjoying it. Like you're saying, you're not enjoying it . Your brain does this. Your body does this. Yeah . You stop , you stop breathing. My instructor. He's like, man, take a breath. Yeah. Like take a breath.

Speaker 2 19:02

No , it's all. And it's all connected. I'm artificially separating this feeling into these different things, you know? But ultimately they all trigger each other. So yeah . Soon as you're feeling joy, you're breathing, you're relaxed, you know? So it's, it can, or you can remind yourself to breathe and instantly you're having a better time. Right? Yeah . So it's just, they're all connected. But I think when you do that, this , and sort of , uh , observe yourself like, am I enjoying? And you ask yourself these questions, you quickly come to the conclusion that to enjoy something doesn't mean you're smiling and you're happy, but you know, you're, you're in it. So it's fun even if you're crying, but it's like, you're just in it. So it feels good. Like that's joy too. It's really just means paying attention to something other than yourself. That's kind of in a weird way, a definition of joy

Speaker 1 19:49

Paying attention to something other yeah.

Speaker 2 19:52

And something you're paying attention to other because what happens when you pay attention to something else you're not self conscious . That's one of those key ingredients when you're having a great night on stage. You're not self conscious . You're uninhibited. Why? Cuz you're not listening to you as a separate thing and analyzing it and judge , yeah . It's not as good

Speaker 1 20:14

Should as good .

Speaker 2 20:15

The practice room .

Speaker 1 20:16

Yeah . Should I stay on this C and play that G or should I play that F yeah. And you're saying take the calculation away. Listen, feel, relax. Let,

Speaker 2 20:24

As soon as you do that and you focus all on yourself, you're, you're disregarding the fact that music , uh , and being a living thing in , in the universe, it's, it's relational. You don't exist separate. So these feelings that , that , that I work on it ultimately it's like building trust. Cause what you, what you don't trust when you're self conscious is that you'll do the right thing. But through practice and learning and experiencing that, if you pay attention to something else, like the drummer and only pays fed to the drummer that you trust that you will react to play the appropriate or 18 sounding you baseline .

Speaker 1 21:07

It's it's funny. Go .

Speaker 2 21:09

Yeah. Like you can't play a good one unless you pay attention to the drummer. Right. Which is so obvious in a way. But we, we we're so used to focusing in and being self conscious so

Speaker 1 21:20

Well, and we're, and we're largely a trained to focus on the, on, I was gonna say, as you're , you're you're making my brain go aha . The mistake. Right? The , it seems that that mindset allows the mistakes to not be mistakes, to exactly remove the judgements . Yeah . And they just happen to be other notes that you play that are working whatever way they work. Right. Right.

Speaker 2 21:43

So, so then the , the last ingredient, I mean talk about that one for a , and it's fascinating, endless, you know, but I , I do have all kinds of exercises where it's like to help work on, can I listen to something else and yet play appropriately, you know? And trust, trust, know what to

Speaker 1 22:02

Do so far. We've got the breath .

Speaker 2 22:05

So you got the breath . Yep .

Speaker 1 22:06

What was the ,

Speaker 2 22:07

And then the center , but it's more like, can you be still just ready for anything? Yeah . So you have to be relaxed to be still and ready for anything,

Speaker 1 22:15

You know, and you , and then you said enjoyment was number

Speaker 2 22:17

Three and then the enjoyment, which is basically like learning how to pay attention to what's actually happening your senses, you know, not what's in here. Um, yeah. So the , the , the , the last one is really just not to take credit. Don't take credit,

Speaker 1 22:34

Check that

Speaker 2 22:35

Ego, whether it's a mistake that you're talking about, you know , like , like , oh, I just messed up and then you beat yourself up for it. All the tune is happening, all

Speaker 1 22:43

That , all that computations in there. And then you're , you're not

Speaker 2 22:46

Paying attention anymore .

Speaker 1 22:47

And I , and I bet you're not breathing the bridge and , and you're not breathing. You're

Speaker 2 22:51

Not breathing. You just made a mistake, probab that maybe only you noticed. Yeah. And yet you , if you take credit for that mistake, then you're focusing on that and then you're missing probably some cue or something. Did you guys

Speaker 1 23:06

Hear that? I just messed up. Hello? Did everyone hear that ? Oh, wait, you want me to play another note now? Oh, crap. You know? Yeah . Yeah . That makes sense .

Speaker 2 23:13

You know , or , or the flip side, if, if something really good happens and you play something great, don't take credit. Cause the same thing will happen. Right. Right. So it's like, it's all about how you pay attention to stuff. And if you pay attention to all the sounds, eventually you can even learn to hear your yourself what you're making. The sounds that you're making almost as just something that's happening, you know, not really you. Yeah . It's just happening. And if you just pay attention to it through a practice, you can build trust that your body reacts appropriately to whatever it is. I , I always use the analogy of driving cuz everyone, most people can relate to driving. And if you're an adult you've been driving for a long, long time and you're very comfortable with it and you've gotten, you know, cause when you're at first, when you learn to drive it's you're tense and you're like, yeah , basically , well child

Speaker 1 24:06

Don't this don't that don't this don't that make sure you don't this. Oops. Yeah .

Speaker 2 24:10

For that, of course you're aware that you're driving this giant thing that could kill people. You know? So it's , it's like a little bit, but you, but over time you get good at it and you relax just like a musician, you know, you get your chops and then it gets to the point where all you have to do to drive well is look at the road. Yeah. And if there's a turn coming up, you've built up this trust in yourself that if you just watch the road, you don't have to think about it. Your body will know just what to do to make the turn happen smoothly. Right. Cause there's trust there. Yeah. It's not

Speaker 1 24:42

Turn the , yeah . You you're certainly not calculating turn the wheel to two, o'clock push on the gas , uh , with 211 , um , ounces of pressure while we uh , oh, it's now it's manual. Stick the clutch in and feather it down into fourth gear. And then , uh , 12, 1.2 seconds from now release the clutch and turn the wheel all at the same time.

Speaker 2 25:03

Exactly. We don't do that. Right. Yeah. And so that's, driving's a good example of where we've got to a point where literally all we have to do is pay attention to what's out there. Not what you're doing in the car, right? Yeah . So in music, it's the same thing. Like if you're practicing with a metronome, listening to that metronome is kind of like watching the road while you're driving the car. Like, all you have to do is listen to that thing and it tells you stuff, it informs you of what to do next. You know, whether you wanna play on the beat or off the beat or whatever, you know it. So I have a exercise I'll do with people where it's like, right . Play , play baseline, make up a baseline, just something that's very repetitive, you know? So very simple, repetitive baseline. And then we're like, okay, first it's probably , and try to get into that space where you feel the breath and you feel centered. And all those things I was talking about enjoying like locking up with that metronome, you know, just enjoying how you're hooked up with it. And um, of course you're not taking credit for it. Cause it's a metronome . You're not even it's just happening. Right. Did

Speaker 1 26:05

You hear that ?

Speaker 2 26:06

Yeah. Right. But you , if you, if you get locked with it, it's interesting. What happens? Like you almost feel like you're doing it. Yeah. You know, that's, that's when you know, you're really locked with it. And then it's like, okay, now that you have that, keep that, and now play that repetitive baseline. But keep that sense of really all you're listening to is the Metro . That's a hundred percent of your , and you're gonna feel your attention being P hold towards your baseline. You're like, oh no, but I need to listen to it to make sure it's right. But then through practice you're like, no, no, no, no, no. Just trust that. It's gonna be fine . As long as you just focus on the Metro , that's it that's and that's, it's more fun. Yeah . And you , you , we soon learned that it's like, that's where the joy is. This , this it's like makes you giddy. It's like, wow. I can actually only listen to that OME and everything in here just starts happening. Right. As long as I relaxed and trust it .

Speaker 1 26:56

So how simple, if , if someone's listening, saying, oh , I like what they're talking about and I wanna do what Chris is suggesting. How simple of a base are they playing ?

Speaker 2 27:04

Well, it's, it's all depends on your level. Uh , so it's completely up to you. It's, it's sort of that's beside the point. It's like, okay , the , the what it is it's it's like you wanna make up something repetitive is even if it's two notes, OneNote, it doesn't matter. Okay . The point is that it's set so that you don't have to think about, it's like your first step to reaching that point where you can truly improvise. So, so what we do is we take away the , uh, that element of where you have to figure out what the notes are. It's like, so no ,

Speaker 1 27:35

No , no variability or improv,

Speaker 2 27:37

No variability

Speaker 1 27:37

In , in the playing .

Speaker 2 27:38

Cause this is the meditation. It's like, can I play the baseline with no variability it first step to building that trust that if I don't pay attention to that, it's gonna be okay. As long as I'm paying attention to the metronome and just locked with that and enjoying and relaxed and just having fun. And then after a while, you know, first you're going back and forth. Am I playing the baseline? Correct. Am I listening? Am I locked to the metronome ? You feel your attention doing this, this , but as you relax and get used to it, your tension does this. Mm . And you can encompass the whole thing as one, you know? So, but it's like a meditation. You have to keep returning, cuz your mind always wants you to get self conscious and like, am I doing it right? And yep . But eventually you learn to relax and try and like, but then before you know, it it's just happening. It feels like it's happening by itself simply because you're paying attention to it. Yeah. So that's when you get to that feeling like, wow, it's like, I'm not even doing it. I'm just, I'm making things happen by listening instead of doing, you know, it's just a , it's a different way of approaching the doing, Not doing it's very Zen sounding, but it's like, I , I don't ,

Speaker 1 28:47

I don't think at all. I mean ,

Speaker 2 28:49

It's , it just should be very practical. It's literally like a , a way that you can get to that state of mind. You can practice that.

Speaker 1 28:55

Yeah. Well, and you're , you're just quiet to , to my take is again, from my experience, especially a new one recently, you're just quieting all that calculating your brains, trying to do and , and do the thing. Stop. Get the brain to just like, come on just, and actually once you come out of your conscious mind and you go subconscious, you are in the metaphysical sense to me, you unlock, oh wait, I actually can do this.

Speaker 2 29:20

Yes that's. And that's like, it's so it's like an, it is when it clicks.

Speaker 1 29:25

Yeah .

Speaker 2 29:25

But you know what? I , you know, most of the time I never heard anybody try to teach me how to do this. They teach you just all these things about the specifics of music, but it's like, they don't teach you how to feel and how to get into that space. And that's the whole reason we all started music in the first

Speaker 1 29:42

Place place. It's it's the only reason. Right? I mean , that's what got us into it.

Speaker 2 29:45

So why do we not work on that?

Speaker 1 29:48

Yeah. Instead it's like, who can go the fastest?

Speaker 2 29:51

Yeah. You know that song, you know, it's not what you look like when you're doing what you're doing. It's what you're doing. When you're doing what you look like, you're doing

Speaker 1 29:58

What

Speaker 2 29:59

You're doing when you're do what you look like , you're doing. I mean, that's kinda what this it's like, what what's going on on the inside.

Speaker 1 30:05

Yeah.

Speaker 2 30:06

And if you work on that, it affects what comes out. Yeah . And suddenly, you know, but what's remarkable if you do this for long enough, is that you realize that you don't come up with ideas. They happen.

Speaker 1 30:20

Yeah.

Speaker 2 30:21

It just happened . And they happen by paying attention because you hear maybe your drummer do something. It just gives you an idea. It's like, you didn't think of that. It's instantaneous.

Speaker 1 30:33

It's neither his or yours. It just, and it goes, whoop .

Speaker 2 30:36

Yeah . It's suddenly you just realize like, oh course he's doing this. And so I should fit into it or go against like , it's just, yeah . Where's that come from? So the final step in the simple exercise is you're you've okay. Now you got to the point you're playing your baseline. You trust your hand, knows what to do. So you just, all your focus is on that metronome. And you're just so relaxed and comfortable with that. So then the next step is like to do, if you do your baseline, like four , eight bar , depending on, you know, if it's a two bar phrase or something, but yep . You do that for, for like four to eight bars. And then without losing that, feeling, all those things we talked about, you're focused on the metronome , not on what you're playing and you trust that ideas just happen without losing all that feeling for the next eight bars, you improvise or solo, whatever you want to call it, like improvising the baseline soloing. Yep . Making noises, but just not the baseline. But can you do that and not make your attention all of a sudden zero in on what you're , you know, getting all so , oh God, I'm soloing. And is it , it is , you know , all that bull that , you know , judgment,

Speaker 1 31:46

Judgment, judgment, that

Speaker 2 31:47

That gets it . Then that's how we get in our way. Right. That's sort of the definition of us getting in our way as

Speaker 1 31:52

We , Gary starts saying, sorry, oops , sorry about that. Oops . Sorry about that. Yeah. So do you click back then in , after you've taken, say four, eight bars that you click back in .

Speaker 2 32:00

So really the meditation then becomes, and this is great, cuz it it's great for people to just start now . And it's amazing. I do it like , it's great for people who have been playing for years and are professional and whatever it's like, but it's so simple. You just, it's all of course what's happening inside and what you're paying attention to. But on the outside, all you're doing is you're playing your baseline for four times and then you're soloing or improvising for the equal amount of time. And you just go back and forth, back and forth so that every time you get back to the baseline, if you felt your attention or your self-judgment or all the stuff you're trying to allow , if

Speaker 1 32:34

It all comes

Speaker 2 32:34

Out right. If the trust goes away during the solo section and you're like, oh , I lost it. Then you're right back to the baseline. You get back into that feeling because it's predictable, you know where your finger is . You remind yourself eventually if you go back and forth on the baseline to the improvising baseline, improvising like a meditation, you do it for 15 minutes. You know, I , you do it for a long time to really give yourself a chance to rely into it , to let yourself make mistakes and to build the trust. Eventually what happens is you realize that you can make up music by not even paying attention or thinking about what's right or wrong or anything. It's just, it happens cuz you're paying attention to the, the rhythm and the rhythm ISN forming you of all the phrases. Right. And that's sort of more important than harmony. It's like sort of the rhythmic phrase.

Speaker 1 33:27

Yeah. Well , yeah . And I love how you're saying, you know, we we're swinging back and forth in the beginning between the, the , the metronome and our playing and our metronome and the self-judgment and the metronome and Hey, then we lock in. Yeah . And you're like, okay , you've got that layer down. Now we're gonna add some actual flow for you that might become, oh , where am I playing to? What is, oh, that phrase was garbage back to the thing we've mastered and out again. And , and again, and out again, to , to see that pendulum come back to the middle

Speaker 2 33:57

And, and depending on what level you're at, you know, there's way , ways to , you always prioritize the rhythm. Like I learned a long time ago, I was obsessed with, you know, jazz. And I wanted to understand why every solo on miles Davis is kind of blue was amazing. And I, I was like, what , what are these guys doing? They must know all the cool notes. So I like transcribed, you know, Coling solo at canal . Ly , solar went and Kelly , bill Evans, Paul Chambers. I wrote 'em all down and just analyzed, okay, well over this dominant seventh chord, oh , he's just playing some chord tones and some Matic notes. And there's some leading tones. I it's like, that's not helping me. I already knew that.

Speaker 1 34:39

What is the equation?

Speaker 2 34:41

So, and then at Dawn, I me it's like, oh, because the rhythmic phrasing is so amazing. Yeah. That's, that's where, that's where it's at. That's where the music is

Speaker 1 34:50

Back here again. Even if it goes

Speaker 2 34:54

Yeah. But it's like, they have an awareness, they have such an awareness of the rhythm that the rhythm section's doing. And they're like a bird they're playing with that rhythmically. And then of course they're amazing musicians. They understand the music. And so they're also , they got ,

Speaker 1 35:09

They got the vocab too. Right.

Speaker 2 35:10

They also got, they also don't understand the harmony and, and have a great sense of melody, but the rhythmic phrase, that's the foundation of it. That's what makes it cool. Right . So I do things where I'd like, okay, I'm gonna transcribe Aming so Olo , I'm gonna get rid of all his notes after I've learned it and, and still play the song with his rhythm, but make up my own notes. Mm . So it's like one way to, it's like taking, it's like, okay, I'm gonna , I'm gonna steal his rhythm. Cause I want us to know what it's like to be him. I wanna

Speaker 1 35:41

Feel

Speaker 2 35:41

Him . Yeah. And yeah, I wanna feel him . And so you take the rhythm, you know, but then learn to use his rhythm, but improvise your own notes. And then you keep doing that. And eventually you like learn to choose good notes with his rhythm, you know? Interesting.

Speaker 3 35:57

Yeah. Well, that's , uh , I mean, what a , what a , another way to get into player's head. And like you're saying removing the, the technical analysis of, is he doing this over this? Or is it that when you're saying, Hey, for me, the foundation is the , is , is the rhythmic confidence.

Speaker 2 36:14

Exactly. And

Speaker 3 36:15

I'm ,

Speaker 2 36:17

If you don't, if you're uncomfortable with theory and all the notes, you don't have those THS , those chops, that exercise, when you get, you know, after you've played your baseline and you get to the improvisation section, like I'll have students, it's like, okay, don't, you're just, you're holding this noise maker . It makes noise. So just think about rhythmic phrases and forget the notes . Right . It might be just, you know, like, like it comes to the solo section and instead of thinking, you know, like I'm gonna improvise and see major boom , you know, forget about that. Yeah. Think of it like a drum, it just makes noises. And so phrases , singing's a great way to do it cuz you , you just, you know, you can just sting it. Yeah. And it's like, I don't have to worry about, do I know what

Speaker 1 37:06

There come quarter tones and everything. It doesn't matter. Right.

Speaker 2 37:08

Yeah. And you just have fun with have fun with the rhythm it's playful and just up da , da , da . Like, why did I come up with those rhythms? Because I was listening to that. I was listening to the , and it , and for some reason it informed me that, okay, leave a space here. Oh . Now lead into beat two there. But it's, it's so intuitive once you just learn where to put your attention.

Speaker 1 37:37

It ma it makes me think of , uh , um, you know, I, I spoke to him on the first podcast and he was very patient with me learning how to do this, but makes me think of Victor Rutten . He always, you know, he always tells a story. And I remember him telling me, you know, when he was playing with his brothers as a kid, you know, they were just like, just, just hit it, man. Don't , don't worry about what you're doing. Just, they just wanted him to tap the base . Yeah . Yeah . You know, obviously that evolved into this style, which became this wild, amazing thing, right? Yeah .

Speaker 2 38:06

No , but it , rhythmic is foundation is strong .

Speaker 1 38:09

Just tap it, man. Make some , make some noises through

Speaker 2 38:11

It. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Definitely. And , and , and no , that's like all that people that, that started out , like, you know, Jocko pastor is example someone who who's a drug . Yeah . You know , uh , so his rhythm was so strong and I think that's what is one of the reasons he had such a great sense of melodic phrasing too. It's like , so melodic and beautiful and lyrical, but, but I think it's cuz the rhythmic foundation was there. That that was always, even if he wasn't playing it, it was inside of him. And he knew how to create melody against,

Speaker 1 38:44

I was thinking rhythm thinking , as you're saying this too, it's like, you know, you were talking about those magical nights and like that's what kind of gets you excited, what , you know, and then really trying to dig into how do I make, it seems like, how do I make that ? And more if not all the time. Yeah . And then you're breaking that down to a principle concept of, you know , uh , breathing and enjoying yourself. Yeah . And staying centered and you know, and , and , and checking your ego is the way I'm taking your message. Right. Is don't judge yourself for the good or the bad. Um, but

Speaker 2 39:11

Don't even call it that just don't pay attention to it. Yeah . Pay attention to everything else happening.

Speaker 1 39:16

I'm sure the listeners also have a more special experience when they're in there with you. Because I , they going on of the rhythmic thing, they, they almost enter the, the , uh , relationship with more trust, you know, and then you're doing all the things that you're doing. You're being vulner. You're just letting it out. Cause they're, they're there to see you. They don't wanna see calculated you. They don't , you know , maybe something ,

Speaker 2 39:41

Right. No, exactly. You can , you can play a perfect concert. Everything's really slick. And every note , but nothing's more fun that when you see a musician and I , God , when I was younger, I, it mystified me. Cause I didn't know if people did this, but like you see like a season musician they're up and they, they mess up and laugh.

Speaker 1 39:59

Yeah.

Speaker 2 40:00

And I was so self critical. I was just like, if I mess up, I'm like , uh , beat myself up, you know? Yeah . So to see that, like how did , how did that person do that? They messed up and then they laughed and they let the whole room, instead of trying to hide it, they just shared the mistake with everyone. Yeah . And it's, everybody's favorite part of the show.

Speaker 1 40:19

Right? Right.

Speaker 2 40:20

Yeah . Absolut when something messed up. Absolutely .

Speaker 1 40:23

Because

Speaker 2 40:23

It's real,

Speaker 1 40:24

I've been in there. I've been in that mindset and , and you know, over my younger years and you know, a voice I want to silence. If I hear it again is wait , that's not how it is on the album, man. You know , that's that's , you don't sing it there in the album. You don't play it there in the album. That's not the rhythm from the album that I've, that I've listened and listened and listened to. Right. Like, yeah. Same , same thing. Right.

Speaker 2 40:47

Uh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's live music is not about creating something perfectly. I mean, I mean, it is for some people cuz it's the putting on a very huge complic show and there's click tracks and that's like a whole different medium, you know? Yeah , sure. But for what we do , Uh that's what makes it magic? It's it's unpredictable.

Speaker 1 41:09

Are you, are you gonna get this stuff down in a manuscript or in a book or something for people to, to , to weigh over, you know, where they can really enjoy it with their Sunday coffee?

Speaker 2 41:17

Uh, I , yeah . I don't know . No you're I feel like if I say yes then it'll definitely never happen. So

Speaker 1 41:25

I think you might have just judged your uh , no , I'm joking.

Speaker 2 41:28

Well I've actually, there's actually a real scientific study about that people. Yeah . Who like say like, oh I'm gonna write a book are actually

Speaker 1 41:34

Statistically less likely the likelihood.

Speaker 2 41:36

Yes . Because in their mind they think, oh I've, I've sort of accomplished it by yeah . You have bidding that I'm gonna do it.

Speaker 1 41:42

Especially artists, especially artists with vivid minds, right. You , the vivid art , the vivid artist , mind imagines and sees themselves doing the thing. Therefore they get the gratification sensation saying that's

Speaker 2 41:54

Exactly what the study

Speaker 1 41:55

Came back . And then they're less, less likely to actually do the thing.

Speaker 2 41:59

But if you keep it to yourself yeah . If you keep it to yourself, it still feels like an undone.

Speaker 1 42:03

Build it up a little. Yeah man . Yeah .

Speaker 2 42:05

Well,

Speaker 1 42:05

That's, it's fun to share that and really understand and, and hear that's a , the thing that's kind of in the front of your mind. Um , like I said,

Speaker 2 42:13

But that's what gets me like to go full circle under your question. I mean, that's what gets me excited every night to government get on stage is just admitting that I have no idea what's gonna happen. Even though of course we work on stuff a lot, we practice and , but getting up there and entering that space where if I listen to in the wood brothers, you know, my brother Oliver and, and John, I great drummer. If I just listen to them, it tells me everything. And so to go up there and do that and trust it. And um, that's, it's really, it makes, I just can't express enough how that's, where the joy is. That's, that's where the fun is. Yeah . It's way more fun than going up there. And, and like we have, we learned this a lot in the studio too, like where you , you , you're working on a song and you're recording for a record and you do multiple takes, you know? And uh, maybe the first take or two you're like, I don't know if we got it, you know, and then you do one of those takes where you just feel like you nailed it nine 95% of the time. That's not the good take, Right. Or the one where you, you did it the way you thought it should be done and well ,

Speaker 1 43:21

You sucked all the life out of it.

Speaker 2 43:23

Yeah. And you know, cuz you it's like when you, when you say like, I nailed it, that's, that's sort of the opposite of you've been paying attention to what you were doing so much that yeah. Maybe you played it exactly what was in your head, but were you really in sync with everyone else? Yeah. Were you really in sync with what was happening in that version

Speaker 1 43:44

And , and , and did you enjoy it? Yeah.

Speaker 2 43:46

Yeah. Well you pro you probably enjoyed it in an ego way and

Speaker 1 43:50

Yeah . Not the right way you took

Speaker 2 43:51

Credit. Right. Cause you're taking credit for what you did instead of just like, you know , this is just happen . A lot of the things that are happening outta my control. So I can't really take credit and the less I pay attention to myself, the better it's probably gonna be, you know? Yeah. So that's why first takes are often have something more interesting about them because nobody quite knows how it should be yet. And so there's this sense of everyone's really paying attention cuz they don't know the music as well as they will by take five when they like really know it and they have opinions about the way it should be.

Speaker 1 44:25

Yeah. So then everyone becomes technicians all wrapped up in their brains and yeah , it makes

Speaker 2 44:32

Yeah , turns the music into a formula. It's like, oh, as long as we do, you know, X, Y, and Z, it's like, it's gonna be fine.

Speaker 1 44:37

Yeah. Well I think , you know, a lot of, a lot of our modern day education has , has turned us into those, you know , uh , ways of thinking I think, and you know, desires to be best makes us white knuckle the handle bars. Right. Definitely . Hey man, just let it. I mean, I , I love the message. Um, and I , I think a lot of people are gonna really appreciate that you've shared this.

Speaker 2 44:57

I think the , the desire to be good is okay, cuz it'll get you to the practice room, but once you're in there, you gotta learn how to put that aside to actually do the thing that inspired you to play music in the first place.

Speaker 1 45:14

Hmm .

Speaker 2 45:14

So, you know , let it, let it get you to the work, but once you're doing your practice, that's not, you don't wanna practice that. Yeah . You don't wanna practice the desire to be good .

Speaker 1 45:27

Let me , let me stroke my ego here today. Well, Chris we've, we've spoken for 45 minutes now and I want , I , I , I think we could, I'd love to talk to you again. Um, but I love what we've spoken about and I think I kind of want this message to stand by itself if that's cool with you. Yeah, sure. Um, we didn't get to talk base and silly things like that, but um, there not silly at all. They're awesome . Um , Hey, there , there I will is judging myself.

Speaker 2 45:53

It's just, yeah . Yeah. I mean, I don't know , bass bass in music, that's all the same thing. Just yeah. It's a thing that makes noise.

Speaker 1 46:00

Yeah, exactly. So , um, I , you know, I wanna let you get to your day. I, I think that the listeners that, you know, the couple people that are enjoying this thing, I'm building will really in , I , I a very privileged to center myself and put these principles in my mind and my heart as I do the thing that I do on the little base over there. Um, and uh, yeah, I mean, I hope to talk to you again, maybe in a couple months, would you be cool with that?

Speaker 2 46:29

Absolutely. Yeah .

Speaker 1 46:30

Yeah . I mean , and , and , and let's offline. Let's talk about base stuff. I mean, I just, I , I kind of , I wanna be like, what are you doing? What's the sound? What , you know, what are you think in , you know, like , but that's, I , I , I promised for this to myself and to the future of doing this, I'm like, I'm not gonna make it about that. Yeah . Like I , I wanna know what the ethos is in the , you know, in the , and that kind of the inside brain of these base players. And , um, it's been a really, just a privilege talking to you and thanks for taking the time.

Speaker 2 47:00

Yeah. I'm glad to finally meet you.

Speaker 1 47:01

I hope I'm not dropping the mic too quickly there we're done.

Speaker 2 47:05

No , no , it's good. Yeah . I mean, God , I , I , I'm a , I love this stuff. I can talk all day about it, but yeah. Nice can overdo it too.

Speaker 1 47:14

So you're playing tonight, right?

Speaker 2 47:16

Yeah .

Speaker 1 47:16

At ,

Speaker 2 47:18

Uh , the Fillmore in Philly,

Speaker 1 47:20

The Fillmore in Philly and today is let me check February 3rd. That's right. And the , and then the next show is where ,

Speaker 2 47:26

Um, tomorrow night we're in Boston at the house of blues

Speaker 1 47:29

House of blues over there, off of, at the end of near Boyleston. I forget Commonwealth. Yeah ,

Speaker 2 47:34

That's right by the stadium, right? Yep . Yep . Um, yeah. And , uh , our last show on this run is in New York city, Webster on which Saturday

Speaker 1 47:43

On , on this Saturday coming up Thursday, Friday . So fifth ,

Speaker 2 47:46

Couple more nights after tonight and boom ,

Speaker 1 47:48

Boom,

Speaker 2 47:48

Boom. Head home.

Speaker 1 47:50

All right , man. Well, I hope you , uh, find those spaces in your playing tonight in the next couple days that are you listening and having a blast.

Speaker 2 47:58

Thanks, man. That's the , that's the goal

Speaker 1 48:01

We'll be thinking about you and , uh, you know, thank you so much for coming on the show here or whatever the heck we call this thing. And , um , I'll, I'll talk to you soon, brother.

Speaker 2 48:09

All right . Thanks Gary.

Speaker 1 48:10

Take care. Bye. You too .