Double Bass and Beyond - Gary Upton of Upton Bass
Double Bass and Beyond - Gary Upton of Upton Bass
Fifth Dimension - Revolutionizing Double Bass Tuning with Joel Quarrington
Unlock the secrets of an innovative approach to double bass tuning with our special guest, the acclaimed Joel Quarrington. Discover how tuning in fifths can transform your bass playing experience, from enhancing intonation to creating a more cohesive sound within string sections. Joel shares his personal journey of transitioning from traditional fourths tuning, the challenges he overcame, and the profound moments that affirmed his commitment to this unique method. We also explore the specific adjustments needed for a double bass to accommodate fifths tuning, such as neck modifications, and discuss the ergonomic benefits over five-string basses.
Venture deeper into the world of custom string and bass development, as Joel sheds light on the creative solutions for musicians in under-resourced regions. Learn about the historical significance and modern adaptations of instruments like the Dragon Eddie, and the ongoing efforts to craft basses that meet the nuanced needs of players. This episode promises to inspire and inform, offering practical insights and a hopeful outlook on future innovations in bass tuning. Whether you're a seasoned bassist or just curious about the evolution of string instruments, this conversation with Joel Quarrington is a must-listen.
Hey guys, it's Gary with Upton Bass. Thanks for checking out our podcast. We just wanted to let you know that a lot of these podcast audio files are pulled from our videos. So if we're chatting and talking about certain features and things about bass topics and you're scratching your head going what's he talking about, hop on over to our YouTube also our coursesuptonbasecom, and oftentimes Instagram for partials and entire videos that will describe what you're hearing on these audio files. Again, thanks for listening and we'll talk to you soon.
Gary Upton:So I'm here with Joel Quarrington and Joel and I connected right before COVID, early COVID times, and I approached Joel explaining that I wanted to understand his approach to bass playing and tuning in fifths and what an instrument requires to do so, and I've learned a lot of things in the process from Joel. But where we're at at this point is we've made a while ago now. Two or three years ago, the bass has just been hanging out collecting dust. We've made a loose copy and there's two or three years ago, the bass has just been hanging out collecting dust. We've made a loose copy and there's already a laundry list of things to change, for example, the neck.
Gary Upton:This bass's neck is almost cello-like in its length, and what I mean by that is from here to here it's about 19 1⁄4 eighth-ish inches. This bass has a very standardized neck in it which is probably around 17, 18 and, uh, you know, easy thing to to relate to. We have the whole d neck, e neck e flat neck, whatever it be, and we believe we're calling what this bass needs, which this is. It's almost in. When tuned in fifths it's an f sharp an neck?
Gary Upton:Yes, so that's a thing for people to go. What Now, when we talk about tuned in fifths C, G, D, A, like a cello, but drop down an octave, Everyone else, most everyone else I shouldn't say that is playing tuned in fourths E, A, D, G, what this affords, Joel is Well, just in terms of tuning.
Joel Quarrington:I actually use this tuning for everything, for solo playing, for chamber music, in the orchestra. I've been playing in orchestras for in this tuning since well, for about 31 years and you know I've never met a passage I can't fake in this tuning and some things work out great, like really great. I think I like my intonation in this tuning better than the force. It has a more brilliance to it that I think blends in with the other instruments in the orchestra, maybe not the basses, but you know I've usually played principal bass.
Joel Quarrington:I view myself as sort of a conduit between the cello section and the bass section and, like you know, the intonation should be uplifting, I think you know like it shouldn't sag at all. And it's not that it's a different intonation, it's the color of the intonation. It's more supported, more. Okay, it's sharp, Okay, it's slightly sharp, no, it's pulling upward instead of pulling downward.
Joel Quarrington:Before I was tuning in Fis, I always wondered what's the problem with the other strings? Why are they playing so sharp? Why is my life so miserable? And the string orchestra trying to play sharp enough? And I until I actually showed up at a rehearsal one long time ago with my bass and fifths and then I finally understood. I said, oh, I get it, I see why everyone is at this A. And you know it was like now I was weaponized to be with them and I could hear the ambient A in the room that everyone was after.
Joel Quarrington:It was, honestly, it was an epiphany for me, like saying, oh, because I've been playing in continuo groups and string orchestras already for years and string orchestras already for years and it has always been a major battle for me, the intonation with the cellos Trying to get up to speed with them. But this really gave me some inkling about how I could solve it. It doesn't make things easier for solo playing. It definitely doesn't make it. You know it's not an easier way to play but in terms of the intonation that I was looking for and that's why I do it. So, like you know, people say, well, it's hard enough already and stuff like that. But there's this thing about the intonation, that I'm in the orchestra that I'm really stuck on.
Gary Upton:Now you say easier. It doesn't make it easier, but I would argue it seems to make it easier if you can incorporate the concept, especially if you happen to be a cellist in the past, if you can incorporate the concept, especially if you happen to be a cellist in the past. But it seems to make it easier that you're not playing C extension yes, and you're not playing in this disjointed position like this where your bow is here.
Gary Upton:I mean talk about a way to break a human body and then also you're not playing a five string with miniature string spacing.
Joel Quarrington:Yeah, actually, when I first started trying to learn fifth tuning, I had five basses and I had them all in different tunings and I took up learning to play a five string. I took up Viennese tuning. I took up fifth tuning. I had a bass in solo tuning. I wasn't really trying to switch to any, I was just trying to learn another skill. I thought that's all. It was another skill and it wouldn't impact knowledge.
Gary Upton:I wouldn't forget how to play in force, so was there a point where you'd done it enough that you were like this is worth investing all my time into? Do you remember when that was?
Joel Quarrington:Sure, because at a certain point it became of course I read all music at concert pitch. I got good enough at it that the major impediment was my inability to read really fluently, because, you know, it was the first time in my life I had to take home orchestra parts and practice them.
Gary Upton:Because you were who practices orchestra, because you were playing the bass and fifths and you were having to rethink everything.
Joel Quarrington:Yeah, okay, so all of a sudden I had to practice orchestra parts and I I believe that I spent so much time trying not to make a mistake that I probably wasn't playing very musically very loose and stuff. So I felt I couldn't really evaluate whether or not it was a good or bad idea until I was like 100% comfortable reading the music.
Gary Upton:And I went through some big growing pains.
Joel Quarrington:Conscious incompetence Sounds like you were stuck there right. That's where I still am.
Gary Upton:No Conscious incompetence. It doesn't have to be conscious mastery, but somewhere in between maybe. Okay, I wouldn't attempt it. Well, it's interesting to me. You know what we've done and this project's kind of we started a while ago, hit the stop button. Joel and I have worked on our communication and getting to kind of know how one another work, which that's my favorite part is getting in his head and understanding a little bit of it. You know that's my goal. All of it, as much as I'm able to.
Gary Upton:This first whack we do this a lot of times. We make a base with economical, simple woods. This first whack we do this a lot of times. We make a base with economical, simple woods. This is a poplar back and sides the arching is not as pronounced as the top and the back of this base, the neck dimensions I already talked about. And then there's setup componentry. You know maple, lightweight tailpiece, this bridge that's going on here.
Gary Upton:The next whack one of the guys works with us. Dave calls it an air and a spare. So we will make the air to the space, which will be, I think, the next one. Number three will probably be the spare, and this will just be a museum piece of an attempt to do a thing. What we won't do is try to fix the space, because the neck needs to come out, the arching, the wood selection. It's going to go downstairs with this space. On the bench, we'll take our China marker and we'll write all over it and then we'll have a moving draft that we can just go to the next space and really I'll probably leave it up here in the workshop with all the pencil marks.
Joel Quarrington:We could use a.
Gary Upton:Sharpie and I'm sure someone will come along and want to play it. A few people have played it and loved it and asked if they could buy it and I said no, it's not done yet. We're not doing that until Joel says that's a nice copy of my bass. But my goal is obviously to meet and exceed what this does for you. That being said, it's a partner of his, so it's hard to say that it ever will. But I want to get really close and I'm focusing it on once. I get much closer. I want to focus in on the things that we've not. We can't even talk about what he doesn't like, about the space yet, because really the comparison is what's going on here that this is not, this is not doing. But eventually we'll talk about with the next one what the holdbacks might be in this bass, if any, and then how I can make the new bass, not have them. Simple example, not in this case, but simple example Made a bass for Blake Hinson copy of his Galliano.
Gary Upton:The original had a 41 and a three quarter inch string length. He said if you could make the copy of 41.5, I'd be very happy. So just from that one metric now I've got him saying I like this bass better. That being said, there's a multitude of reasons he likes that bass better, but you know, that's what I want to do here Eventually.
Gary Upton:We're just not there yet you know and this is I appreciate you being willing to put your time into doing this with us sincerely and you know, when we have one that works, that will be really fun. And I am most excited about understanding this tuned in fifths thing getting a bass that I can say here Joel and Joel says you know what You've done it and historically going forth, I think that'll be great for the bass playing world. I know this is a thing that people have a hard time incorporating and maybe you have students that visit the fifths world for a while and then they leave. Have you seen many players that come and stay?
Joel Quarrington:In fifths?
Gary Upton:Yeah, no, anyone really taken to it, oh yeah absolutely. And stayed. Oh, yeah, okay.
Joel Quarrington:Yeah, especially when I've worked with guys that used to play the cello and you know, and I'm pretty good at converting big guys into bass players if they played the cello before.
Gary Upton:It would seem to have interesting implications just for like the public school system.
Joel Quarrington:Well, I always thought so. I always thought that it would. You know, most of the teachers they're teaching the whole class and they're coming from a mindset of you know fifths and violin and they sort of know cello, but like bass is like what the heck is that all about? You know, but you know, especially with really little kids, if it could even be taught you know without learning.
Joel Quarrington:The low F is the first note in this case D flat tough note yeah but you know, in the, in the cello, you know you sort of you learn this position, that D Right.
Gary Upton:Okay, yeah.
Joel Quarrington:So that's how you train a Suzuki cellist here. They don't even go on these strings. I mean having that motion as the thing that is desired with a little kid, I mean that's too big a stretch. I mean we don't want stuff like that happening. But what about that as a pivot, or that could be the goal? And then you know, we could take G major, then you know, and C major, and we could just stay in this position. There's all kinds of tunes we can play.
Gary Upton:We've got two octaves of notes already, and they could have been seven years old, playing a cello in the orchestra for a few years. Eight years old, nine years old and move over into a fifth space, and it would be a pretty friendly landing right.
Joel Quarrington:Yeah, very friendly. And then that component would be the first part. The next tricky thing that needs to be done is learning the leading tone from there, or D major. So we would have that that accident I still haven't gone into the half position notes yet and then in my opinion, the next thing that would happen would be this position here.
Joel Quarrington:So just like in the cello world, it's full yard is the method book that's exactly what they do and they combine and they do lots of tunes and they get these two positions and connecting them nice and smooth, and that's a tried and true way of teaching and that's how I do it with reforming cellists or if I'm teaching someone right from the get-go, which I've done a couple of times.
Gary Upton:But the way it's done now, if you move over to the bass, it's toss it all out the window and we're figuring everything out. Well, I don't know about you.
Joel Quarrington:I think the first note I learned was like low F and it's such a so-and-so.
Gary Upton:Yeah, you know.
Joel Quarrington:Yeah, and it's a very tough note. Yeah, and so you know, and it's a very tough note, and it would be to get to it well, in this case, a D flat Now at any rate you get the idea, yeah, as well as that sort of freedom, of a pivot. I think that that's, you know, the whole idea of not clenching, you know, not trying to grab, you know like this, which is you know you do things to help. I mean, we had really nice low action, so there was like a ukulele or something they would like that.
Joel Quarrington:But yeah, absolutely. Why couldn't it be taught in public schools?
Gary Upton:like that. It's interesting because I always know when some kids will come in from a school where the orchestra director is a bass player, because they're often great bass players. Not to say anything bad about the orchestra directors that don't play the bass, but you can tell and and that would allow a non-bass player maybe to make it a little friendlier for a bass section, exactly no it's like they could probably hack at it themselves pretty quickly with some foundational things they've already built, instead of two different schools.
Joel Quarrington:There's another thing about fifth tuning that you might find interesting and you know it actually is popular in places and you know I'm sorry to say but it's a reality because I do get emails from people. It's popular in some countries that we call third world countries, where they have an orchestra and they've got I don't know sort of basses there. I don't know what the basses are going to be like. You know you can imagine. But the players there, they want to hit the contours C, they want the low C.
Joel Quarrington:They don't have a chance of ever having a five string bass. They don't have a chance of ever having an extension. They're lucky to have a box with four strings With a neck on it. Yeah, they're lucky to have a box with four strings With a neck on it, yeah. But I mean as a bass player in the orchestra. Of course we all want to be able to hit a low C. I mean you have to have a low C.
Gary Upton:Yeah.
Joel Quarrington:So with some people I mean, I read these very touching letters from you know countries.
Gary Upton:Where they can't go down the road and see their local friendly bass shop Exactly or get a C extension for thousands of dollars they're lucky to have a bass you know at all, so it tells you something.
Gary Upton:Yeah, and we've talked about you said, you know we've taken regular basses and just tuned them in fifths, and you know it's perhaps a better approach than not being able to play the music that's in front of you, right, yeah, so we're really trying to capture the essence and the belief, and I get it, and I understand it, and I can then stubbornly say it's not something that I would ever venture into. I'm like where's an octave, you know, and it's all this thinking, and my brain doesn't have that amount of power at this time, but I really want to capture this and get behind it and make an instrument. That first step meets Joel's approval. There's some good things going on here, and there's some other things that are going on here that are you know, we're ready to chop the neck out and throw it out the window Right now. Yeah, I want to do it now. So we're going to go downstairs, we're going to take some measurements, and I'm probably going to take a few months hopefully not years this time, though it won't be.
Gary Upton:No, covid no more pandemics and we'll have base number two done with copy, we'll have bass number two done with copy and just want to show people kind of a behind the scenes of what we're doing. I mean this in the best of ways. It's a very challenging project because a lot of times I'm doing another version of something I've done before and I bring all of the learning, kind of like the cellist moving over to playing bass If they had all two different fits, moving over to playing bass If they had all tuned in fifths. I'm often making, you know, a new funky, cool, deep, rib old Italian thing that does definitely have a sound that it has similar to that it shares with and this is a very different approach. And you know this bass Joel's had it for how long?
Joel Quarrington:Joel, 33 years, and it's named Giovanni Paolo Maggini, 1608, is what the older papers I have on that instrument say.
Gary Upton:And you can see it's got very Testori-esque F-holes, which does a certain thing to create that very in my opinion, very cello-like sound. You'll see there are very shortened ribs, very almost cello-like shoulders, and you affectionately call the bass.
Joel Quarrington:Well, it's all because of this carving on the back. It's a dragon and his name is Eddie, so it's actually Dragon, eddie, dragon, eddie.
Gary Upton:He get it, I don't get it. I think that's some guy that played bass one time, yeah, and then the neck and the scroll of this bass is not original.
Joel Quarrington:Nope.
Gary Upton:But beautifully carved and very interesting.
Joel Quarrington:I think from Hill.
Gary Upton:I don't think we'll replicate that on the first one. I also would probably want to hang out with the bass for a long time to replicate that. Maybe we'll eventually do one with a dragon head on it. That'd be fun, wouldn't it? Oh yeah, copy him. So yeah, that's kind of the project of what we're up to. Stay tuned for more of what we do and how we get there.
Gary Upton:It's got my wheels turning. And this is the stuff. If I could do this all day long, just this, you know, finding, you know, what's right for Joel isn't right for this guy and this guy and this guy and I'm learning the more that I do this it's just finding the application-based tool that suits the player in front of me. It's the same thing I do for a guy that calls and says he's got 10 grand for a jazz bass. You know, I figure out what needs to be on the table and what doesn't need to be on the table. And, you know, get him a bass that fulfills all of his deepest, darkest secrets, I mean desires. What am I talking?
Joel Quarrington:about. Anyway, I don't know.
Gary Upton:So here we are with the two. I will tell you truthfully, it's a good first whack, but we're going to take a nice solid whack at the next one and maybe eventually I'll just put a new neck in that. That might be a good idea. Just whack the neck out of that thing.
Joel Quarrington:The only problem with the neck is that I'm lost on it, that's all. But someone that doesn't have my bias, you know, it's perfectly fine. I just couldn't find the notes very well, right, it's very different.
Gary Upton:You can see the distances from the bottom of the neck to the heel.
Joel Quarrington:Here You've got a lot of and for years I've been telling students that the necks didn't make any difference to me. But today I've learned Actually.
Gary Upton:I'm wrong. When you change the basses you're like, yeah, it makes a difference. So, yeah, it's fun just to try and capture and understand what's going on with this bass and why this fine gentleman likes this bass and what it does and what he's used to, and I can't wait for number two to show my interpretation.
Joel Quarrington:Can I just say one thing? That no, no, of course. Something that I find very exciting, and what I feel is the major impediment that I experience, is the constant search for strings to make work in fifth tuning, and it excites me to think of the possibility that you're acquiring string machines.
Gary Upton:Oh, it's not a possibility. You're doing it. Oh, it's paid for. Wow, yeah, what's nice? Again, let's talk nicely about tuned-in fifths. The first question I've had when I've told a few people oh, when are you making extension strings To add that extra foot on the machine I would have to get? We have three machines that we have built. We'd have to buy a completely different machine and it's like an extra $180,000 to spend this much more material, because the you know the chuck to chuck size and it has it's pneumatically tensioned, it's a lot of you know, complicated microcontrollers that then spin and feed the fifth thing. All we've got to do is, you know, we'll reverse, engineer what we like. Then we'll come up with some opinions and a matrix of when we, when we use this steel or we use this copper and we use this core, it results in this, and then we'll be able to control what we want and hopefully land on a full set for Arco. Two and a fifths.
Joel Quarrington:Yeah, I'm all about it?
Gary Upton:Yeah, and then we'll sell three sets and I'll buy them all. No, but it it's again who's going to get into playing their bass tuned in fifths, even if they hear from joel corrington. You really should do this. And then you say, well, what string should I buy? Well, you can do this and you might do this and you could do this, and if you buy one of these and two of these and one of these, you'll be at a point that kind of works.
Joel Quarrington:I've got a. I've got a special email section on my computer you copy paste yeah, just a stock answer because you know, believe it or not, there's a lot of people um trying to play in fifths. Yeah, a lot of amateurs that don't care about they, don't have any repressive tradition, that's great. Yeah, I mean you know, of course you know, I know that most kids that are serious with the bass, you know they want to be, they want to be normal and accepted into an orchestra.
Joel Quarrington:Um, and you know that I that's cool. I mean I I have a whole class of kids like that that would never do fifths. It doesn't mean that fifths isn't a isn't a very good idea't a very good idea, but it is important to be sort of normal at auditions, yeah well, when we get this down, though, when we replicate this more soloistic sound, I'm going to say that bass has a bit more of a soloistic sound is that okay to say.
Gary Upton:I would then like to make a section more section-y. Built instrument tuned in fifths. Yeah, absolutely Something softer and more suited for the section that now comes with four strings. But guess what? It's got your C extension built in.
Joel Quarrington:A frustration I've always had about the double bass is that people, you know, they say oh, I've got my solo bass, I've got my orchestra bass.
Joel Quarrington:And like special basses for this and that. Oh, I got my solo tuning and my little bass and stuff and I hate it. Why can't it just be like a normal instrument like all the others and a work of art? And the thing is, your top string it should be your solo string, it's your singing string, and then you've got an accompaniment string to go with your singing string and then you have your bass strings. They should sound like a bass You're accompanying. Sometimes it's a helper if you don't feel like shifting back. But that's your chanter, that's your singing string and it should have. It should be an expressive sound.
Gary Upton:I think. Well, so I get to kind of take back what I'm saying in a good way. Once we have this like I said before, actually I feel validated we'll add to it, right, like if we say hey, hey, how do we make this? You know, once we, once we arrive here, we'll add to it in a way if we feel we need to, and then we'll play around. You know, a couple years from now we'll have a few different versions okay that's kind of. That's what I'd like to do okay, it's a deal.