Double Bass and Beyond - Gary Upton of Upton Bass
Double Bass and Beyond - Gary Upton of Upton Bass
Flatback vs Roundback - Debunking Myths and Unveiling Double Bass Secrets
Are flatback double basses really less durable than their roundback counterparts? And does the shape of the back truly affect the richness of the sound? We tackle these questions head-on in our latest episode, using the Breschen and Mittenwald models to break down long-held beliefs and misconceptions. We dive deep into the construction details, clarifying that while roundbacks are often thought to produce a warmer sound, a skilled maker can work wonders with either design. We also debunk the myth about flatbacks' fragility, providing a historical lens that sheds light on why some older German-imported instruments got an undeserved bad rap.
But that's just the beginning. We take you on an intricate journey through the anatomy of double basses, revealing how the choice of wood, body geometry, and construction techniques can make all the difference. From the quarter-sawn vertical grain spruce tops to the neck set and bracing methods, every element plays a crucial role in the instrument's performance and longevity. Whether you’re a seasoned bassist looking to deepen your understanding or a curious listener fascinated by the mechanics of musical instruments, this episode offers invaluable insights into the craftsmanship behind the double bass.
Hey guys, it's Gary with UptonBase. Thanks for checking out our podcast. We just wanted to let you know that a lot of these podcast audio files are pulled from our videos. So if we're chatting and talking about certain features and things about bass topics and you're scratching your head going what's he talking about, hop on over to our YouTube also our coursesuptonbasecom, and oftentimes Instagram, for partials and entire videos that will describe what you're hearing on these audio files. Again, thanks for listening and we'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 1:Hey guys, it's Gary with Upton Bass. In this video we're going to talk about an age-old question the difference between a flatback and a roundback bass. Now I've chosen two great examples this is our Breschen model and this is our Mittenwald model. Both of these basses are larger, three quarters, pushing up on the small seven eights category, with string lengths of a three quarter size bass. The concept that people think is often oh, a round back's going to have a bigger, warmer, deeper sound than a flat back's going to have a brighter sound. And I'll explain. While that might be true if you make all other things perfectly equal, making basses is controlling the body geometries, the choice of wood for the top, the thickness of wood for the top, the grain of the wood for the top in both instruments. So I'll venture to say that we can make a flat back that sounds very much so like a round back and vice versa, a round back that sounds very much so like a flat back.
Speaker 1:This space over here is a nice hard English sycamore. It's a very flamed, interesting maple. It's known for its beauty. It's very, very white, beautiful instrument grade wood. It's very stiff too. So the ratio of lightness to stiffness is fabulous. It keeps the base nice and light, but it's got a stiff back. This back is able to act very much so like the back on this base. It's obviously not figured, it's more simplistic, which is suited well to the Breschen model. But being it flat, it's very stiff and it also has braces in the back. The bracing adds in a sense more rigidity and structure to the back. We're able to take either of these bases and put a soft or a hard, a thinner, a thicker top on them. And obviously we've got F holes to consider the size of the holes, the bass bar, the other things that play into how the instrument sounds.
Speaker 1:But what I want to show you and I want to dispel today, I'm going to play both the basses is the concept that a round back sounds bigger and fuller than a flat back and a flat back has some kind of pointy little voice. Not the case. Obviously, the best comparison would be this exact bass in a roundback versus this exact bass in a flatback. But even then, knowing what clients are trying to achieve and knowing what sound I want from our basses to be known as the Upton bass sound there are changes that I would make in the bass. If I knew this was going to be a flat back, I wouldn't just make this bass with a flat back on it and everything else remains the same. So let's hear the round back first.
Speaker 1:Again, different basses, different strings, but the A string on this bass is the same as the A string on that bass. It's a Spire Chord and we need to tune. This has a placeholder E string on it. It's going to throw you off a little bit. Very dark orchestra string and you can hear it's got a very dry sound. We were talking about dry versus wet in a growl of fingerboards. This string is just going boom. It's not got any wah to it. I can try and emphasize it, but it's very hard to make it happen. It's a perastro string that's made for primarily bowing and again, it's just on here for now, while the C extension is being finished off. We're waiting for the new string.
Speaker 1:So that's our round back sound and you guys will notice the ribs are deeper on this bass for a reason. The arching is different on the top, for a reason. The F-holes are different, for a reason. The arching is different on the top, for a reason. The F-holes are different, for a reason. All of those things combined.
Speaker 1:Again, ask the question. I'm sitting on the, I'm in front of a jury and I'm an expert witness and the question is pointed and you say does a flat back or a round back have a deeper sound? I'd have to ask the attorney a question and the judge might say answer the question, sir. If everything else is the same, we could agree that the roundback might add a little bit more poof and oomph to the bass. But makers that are aware of the impact of different componentry, such as flatbacks, I would then respond just to confuse everyone, I can make both of them sound exactly the same. I would darken both of these bases by using softer woods. I could use a, for example, poplar, very simple but creamy, very structurally sound wood. That's creamy but it doesn't have any flame. I could use poplar, I could use willow. There's a variety of things that I could do to darken both of these bases up, and all of this is what goes into the art of when we're talking about what base you're going to buy and what you're going to get and how we're going to get the sound.
Speaker 1:Now, the thing that I do want to talk about flatbacks, break and roundbacks. Don't that bad reputation comes from so many german imported instruments from the late 1800s to the early 1900s where the backs and the ribs and the tops they were paper thin paper thin Old Tyrolean basses made for gut strings and low tension paper thin instruments. So there are tons and tons and tons of flat back instruments that are cracked and that data floats out there in the forums and the places that people talk and as such, people will read it and say, oh, flat back basses crack, round back basses crack too. Just the same. What I will say is this if a base is going to crack and if a base is going to have a structural problem, where's the weakest place on the base? Where is a base made to fail in a sense.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll give you a clue. It happens to be the place where there's vertical grain spruce, which is a soft wood. Both of these bases, round and flat soft wood. Backs and sides are made with hardwood. Right, this is a coniferous wood, so like a pine tree, like a Christmas tree, a spruce tree that's what the top is made of. It's quarter sawn with vertical grain. Also, it has these things called strings, pushing on a bridge with 200 pounds tension. Also, it has holes cut in it. And guess what, when this soft wood takes an impact you're walking with your instrument or you know you have it in the bag, but you don't realize it falls on its face and the bridge gets pushed on the top.
Speaker 1:All of that being put together, what I'm telling you is, if your bass is going to give you a problem, for me it is not going to be because it has a flat or a round back. It's going to start usually with the top. When you play the bass it's hard to see, but every time you pull on the E string if you look closely, look down your F hole play your bass, pull on the E string. If you look closely, look down your F hole, play your bass. Pull on the E string, don't let it go. And look at the top, you'll realize, whoa, I've never seen that the whole top pumps like this. The back does nothing of that the back we could debate that the back does stretch a little bit. So when we think about the woods of the instrument, like I'm talking about, pull on that E string, you'll see that top. That's the bridge pushing on the bass bar, pushing the top down, and we want a bass that does that.
Speaker 1:If a bass doesn't move at all, no movement, no sound. When the back of the bass, when the bass is being played, we pull on the A string, we pull on the E string. Think about this. Very few people talk about this. When you pull on the strings, you're pushing on the top, but you're pulling on the scroll. The neck of the bass is counteracting this forward pressure to an unmeasurable degree as you're pulling on the string. Every time you play the bass, pull and release, pull and release. Each time you're pulling the scroll forward. As you pull the scroll forward, the neck in the body is being pulled forward. That tension is then going into the back and the ribs of the bass. It's why a neck set is very, very important. A nice rigid neck set is the sound center. In my opinion, where everything an instrument starts with is where the neck is set.
Speaker 1:But you're stretching the back Because of the curve of a round back. We could argue that there's more stretchability in that linear pattern than there is in a flat back. Does that add to the darkness of sound? Does that make the back more or less susceptible to cracks? The flat back might be fighting that tension, whereas the round back is allowing the stretch. We could also argue that if a round back is being stretched, the grain of the back is in line with my hands as it's being stretched. It could be making the grains open and close as it's being stretched. So these are some of the things we need to think about, and that might be why a round back can be built, and should be built, a little bit thicker than a flat back, which must be braced correctly. We do not brace our backs with straight braces like this. It's very much so called ladder bracing. We use a diagonal brace and then a bunch of little assistant braces which look like the braces on a piano. But I just wanted to talk to you guys about the differences and the similarities between flat and round back basses and to get people thinking in other dimensions about the instrument and what the instrument's doing and what you're making the instrument do when you play it. And, like I said, I'll review this again.
Speaker 1:Where's the softest piece of wood? Where's the piece of wood with 250 pounds of tension? Where's the piece of wood you're asking to move all the time? Where's the piece of wood with holes cut in it? It's the top of your bass. Which piece of wood is not from a deciduous tree or a non-evergreen? The top of the bass is a coniferous tree. It's a sappy tree. It's a soft wood. It's why it works. It's like a drum. You need a soft drum head. The back and sides of the instrument are not your beginning problems. It's nearly always going to be the top first.