Modern Church Leader
Hear pastors share what's working in their churches. Welcome to Modern Church Leader, a show for church leaders to learn business strategies, leadership skills, church tech tips, and generosity. Tune in for powerful interviews to help you grow your church to be more effective, efficient, and powerful for the kingdom of God. For more information, visit https://www.mclconference.com/
Modern Church Leader
The Best Tech of Church Communications with Michael Lepinay
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For more information on Michael and the team at Clearsteam, visit https://clearstream.io
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Hey guys, Frank here with another episode of Modern Church Leader. I am joined by Michael, one of the co-founders of Clearstream, Co-founder and CEO right.
Speaker 1:We don't have a CEO. I don't know why. I'm COO, oh, okay, yeah, you and Trevor are CTO, I'm COO. So yeah, you guys started a great business, so I yeah, you and Travis, I'm the.
Speaker 2:CTO, I'm COO, so yeah, you guys started a great business, so I'm pumped to do this interview. We've known each other for a while, so thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Tell folks like where you're joining from and I don't you know.
Speaker 1:So I'm joining from Pensacola, florida. That's where our company's located. Uh, we have an office here downtown, and then you know we're like a hybrid, remote slash, an office team. Um, then, doing this for like 14 years, which is crazy to say, uh, it's like a lifetime in software. Um, and what clearstream is is, very simply put we are a texting and emailing software built specifically for churches. We've been doing that for a long time, and so we're not a church management software. We don't try to be we don't have plans to be software. We don't. We don't try to be, uh, we don't have plans to be um, we just focus on building really, really, really good software helping churches communicate with their people through texting and email.
Speaker 2:So that's the short. Love it. And you and your longtime buddy, trevor, started it. You guys have. You have quite the the history together, so get. I mean, how did you get into brother-in-law's now? But there you, there, you go there. Yeah, it's like, and it's still working. You're still, you know, friends and all that that's still friends.
Speaker 1:That's a good still friends. So he tricked me into starting a company so he could marry my sister later. So I'm smart guy, guy, he did. He did marry my sister, but it wasn't a trick, yeah.
Speaker 2:So how did you guys get into give us a little bit of your, like you know, faith story? Like how did you, you know, get connected with the church and become a Christian? And obviously that down the road led to, you know, building a company that's serving the church.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, we love just the backstory, you know, building a company that's serving the church. So, yeah, we love just the backstory. Well, man, you're. You're asking me something that I would I would talk about for much longer than talking about clear stream, so I'll try to keep this real concise story. Um, well, both, both Trevor and I grew up in the church. He was a missionary kid, uh, he was born in Thailand. His parents run a missions, a very large mission sending agency.
Speaker 1:I was a pastor's kid, kind of grew up in the church, you know, and I identity Christian, so to speak yeah, never really went, you know, crazy as a teenager or anything, but just kind of was like the typical, you know christian pastor's kid. Um, and it wasn't until like I'm 39 now, it wasn't until like mid-20s that, um, life started beating me up a little bit and then faith became a little bit more real where, um, it was more than just like identify as a Christian. It's like, no, actually like this is my everything. This is, yeah, I don't know, it was just it was. Later on in life I had one of those stories I never had like any kind of a very boring testimony personally, you know, it wasn't like I was lost and then I was found. It was more like I was just kind of lukewarm and then life through some some hard stuff, a little bit of suffering and that, um, I fortunately turned to the gospel instead of other things, right, um, and it's just been in that sense. Yeah, that's awesome, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my kids. You know I have triplet 12-year-old boys. They've grown up in church. I didn't grow up in church, but they're growing up in church and oftentimes one of my boys will say to me like Dad, everybody has the same story. Everything was bad and then it was good because of Jesus, he's processing what he hears.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that, I guess, gets the press, but there's lots of people that it's not like life was all bad and they were in jail and on drugs and crazy, and then they learned about Jesus and the gospel and had a big change Like sometimes people have. Just, they grew up in the church or, like me, I didn't have a crazy, you know crazy story and God found me in college and I became a Christian and you know, there you go and uh, yeah, everyone's story is different and God uses all of us. So it's cool, it doesn't have to be crazy. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. My kids, my kids, have good radars. They're, they're, they're spotting that in the church at 12 and I'm like, okay, it's good, it's going to be different. Well, I don't know if it were doing before Clearstream, but give us the Clearstream journey. So you had a heart for the church, but you're also a tech guy somehow, and that led into Clearstream being what it is today. But like, what's the journey?
Speaker 1:there. Well, I should probably disclose that I'm really not a tech guy. I kind of stumbled into this. You play one on TV. Yeah, I play one on TV and have dealt with imposter syndrome for many years and that's gotten better and better as as um, as we've, you know, just continued running the company. But, um, it was really my co-founder. It was really Trevor. He was the tech guy. You know, we were both running separate businesses, um, uh, just out of college and we went on this.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to go way deep, I'm not going to bore your audience, but my wife and I we were married. This was like 2009. I got married in 2008. We went on like a triple date with, like, my wife and I and then a couple other couples, and Trevor was one of those people who went on a date, yeah, um, uh, with my sister, who he later married, and we just we just hit it off. Trevor and I, like we just clicked really well, um, and we and we started hanging out. He's running his own web dev business 'm running like an, uh, like a like a high-end auto detailing business.
Speaker 1:So I'm not a tech guy, um but like I was into like building my own website and, like you know, I, I was drawn, even just in my own business, like the back-end operations, I, you know whatever um. So we decide, I think, six months later, like man, we want to build something together and so, uh, we started throwing some ideas around and, um, we basically didn't have it's. It's actually kind of a boring story. It gets cooler the later, you know, the later it goes. But the the inception of clear, inception of clearstream is pretty lame. It's like, okay, two guys decide they want to build something, um, and so we basically just started building websites, doing, like, uh, google adwords, like you know, marketing stuff for, like, local businesses. Um, and like, our work ethic really got us pretty far. Like we didn't, like we didn't, you know, raise any money or join any debt. We just did whatever we could to make money and we earned a really good reputation and got passed around a lot. And so, you know, we kind of grew our client base and, about a year in, one of the things that we decided we wanted to do was to do, um, well, streaming for churches.
Speaker 1:Way too early into the game, the infrastructure for live streaming was just not there. In 2010, you know, 10, we were reselling some I don't remember who it was um, uh, and that hints the name clear stream. Actually that's where patient comes from. So nothing to do with what we do today. Um, and we also started reselling a texting software, um, from like one of the largest like business texting softwares out there. So we're were just like a white label. It was like, you know, we weren't building any of the software, we were just building like the website and the layer on top. And then, you know, people would find us and they would start using, you know, clear stream. But it's not clear stream behind the scenes. Um, and we did that for a couple of years while doing the other things you know, building websites for local businesses and stuff like that for churches. Um, and it was actually like a crash course. Reselling Another large software was a crash course for us. Um, and what we didn't want to build, if we were to ever do it on our, on our own Right, I was, you know, for the first like six years of clear stream.
Speaker 1:It was just Trevor and I. You know we were just like a two man shop. I'm doing like all the customer support. Um, you know all the. You know a lot most of the business stuff he's. You know behind the scenes on the uh, engineering side very little of it back then.
Speaker 1:But talking with customers in those first few years that we were reselling another texting software, customers were frustrated all the time because the software was so hard to use, very buggy, very slow, like man. We could just build something really really, really simple. It doesn't need all the bells and whistles that all these business texting softwares need or have. Like you know, you need to be able to go and go into somewhere and easily send out a message, reliably send it out it'd be sent out really fast and the ability to respond to people. Like, if we can do those few things really good. You know that'd be cool and so we did. We figured out how to do it ourselves design the products, wireframe, design the product, built it out, launched it in 2013, um, and so you know that's how Clearstream, as people might know today, is like a texting software. It was really like the first iteration was in 2013. Yeah, way more simple than it is today. We miss those days the simplicity of just very, very simple software.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But I mean I love it because you saw, you know you were doing something. You saw the need, you saw the problem. You're like, oh, we can do this better. You went off and did it and clearly it's worked. But there's a little point in there. Early on you were doing text for kind of anybody, because you were building websites for local businesses and all that. So you were. You were doing text for churches and all kinds of other businesses too, and at some point you decided like we're going to go all in on churches, like tell us, you know a little bit about that moment.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we launched the first version in 2013, around 2015 or 16. At that time, we had maybe had I'd have to look back um, I'm gonna say maybe a few hundred customers. We happen to have some really large companies, like really large, like very, very large you know fortune. I don't know one or 500. You know a few of those that had like we had no business working with companies that large, but somehow we, you got past their gates. I don't know how, um, but in those days, like, we were just a texting software for anyone and so we had churches using clear stream and we had other businesses using clear stream. Um, at least back then I wouldn't know now because we haven't been building business texting software for many years but back then texting software would just attract unscrupulous businesses. And I'm not going to like Just nightclubs and things like that, which is fine I'm not saying there's something wrong with a nightclub, but it's just um. At the end of the day, what it came down to is we had no satisfaction with rebuilding. We did not like supporting businesses using our software and also, alongside of that frustration that we had, we also had churches that were using Clearstream. Those churches would start using Clearstream and required very little hand-holding. They loved our software very little support. What I didn't realize back then we were just too naive to know is that actually it was a really good product-market fit. We just didn't know. We didn't know we had built something like actually, this works for churches. It might work for businesses too, but it really works for churches. That's the world that we come from, um, that's the world that we're passionate about.
Speaker 1:I guess I I could say so kind of all of those factors converged around the end of 2015. And I remember, um, uh, I remember exactly where we were. We were, you know, we left the office, trevor and I we go get lunch across the street and we're sitting in a ditch eating lunch and, um, and so I'm like man, dude, like this sounds crazy, but I think we should consider pivoting to just only building our software for churches. And, uh, he didn't. He hardly even paused, which is unlike trevor. Trevor's a very slow speaker, not like just very um, considered, thoughtful, yes, considered and thoughtful speaker. Uh, but he didn't even hesitate and he's like. I've been actually feeling the same exact thing lately. I was like, okay, well, what are we going to do?
Speaker 1:And so that kind of started a chain of events that lasted about a year, uh, all throughout 2016, of, um, me going to hundreds of businesses that you know that are paying us to use our software and, again, we're not funded, we're just like you know, we're just bootstrapped, yeah, um, and going and telling them like, hey, you know, thank you for using us, but, um, you know, we you for using us, but, um, you know, we're no longer serving you know, anyone aside from churches? Uh, so go find someone else. Um, so that was like almost like financial suicide. Um, and we also moved to New York city. We moved the business to New York city. Much higher cost of living, yeah, right, yeah, uh.
Speaker 1:So, like all of those like factors in 2016, middle 2016, um, very, I just I don't know if I'd have the stomach to go through that again, um, but we did all that and we pivoted to okay, from now on, all we do is we, we build software for churches. Really, the big difference is thinking about like, okay, what features inside of a communication software does a church need, not just any kind of business. What does a church actually need? What tools do they use? What's integrated with those tools? Like it changed like our product direction. It made it like very specific, um, we were only solving this very specific problem for this very specific kind of customer, which is a church. So we did that in 2016. Um, and it was a great. It was a very, very tough decision, um, financially sweating for a while, um, but it was the best thing we could have done, you know.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, I mean you kind of bet the farm on that one um, but you know, it sounds like you followed, like your real passion and you know the thing that kind of made you want to get up and work on the business and um you know, just, there's a satisfaction that we found in work that wasn't there before, right, yeah, not to say that people who are, you know, people who are building software for you know, just for businesses or whatever you can't like, god works in all of it.
Speaker 1:You know, just for businesses or whatever you can't like, god works in all of it. You know, we're all called to different things, but for us, for us, uh, we didn't have a satisfaction with you know, if we were doing and building software for churches, like it's actually deeply satisfying, right, so no, I can see a lot of the ministry that happens behind the scenes, uh, so yeah, yeah, yeah, no yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I mean I totally get it.
Speaker 2:Building something, in our case at Tidy the Right, building something for churches, helping them do ministry. There's just something you know very fulfilling about that work and interesting, and I get up every day like excited about what we're doing. And that doesn't have to be lots of people can build things that are serving all kinds of different. You know industries and do it Like you can find passion in lots of stuff. You know for us it's building stuff for churches, for you guys it's building stuff for churches.
Speaker 2:And how did you know, like, when you hit product market fit right and maybe like product market fit right, it's like when you have the product you've built, the thing that you know your ideal customer in your case is churches, like really needs and is finding value in. Like where did you? You made the pivot, so you were seeing signs of it. But then, like you kind of like you moved to New York and then you're like, okay, is it working? Like, was there any? You know, do you remember any moments or any things where you're like, oh, like, it is actually where we went down the right path and it's working better and better now.
Speaker 1:I think I, we, we again, we were like um, I might be selling ourselves a little bit short, but I don't think so. We were just naive to a lot of that stuff back then. You know, that's seven or eight, that's seven or eight, that's eight years ago now. Um, I don't even think the idea of product market fit was in my radar. You know, like I just, you know, and we were a lot younger, you know, we started the business. We were both 24, I think, 25. Um, so I don't know, I think we just stumbled into it because we just we had the software and we like, we like the church, the churches who use our software, they're really just enjoyable to work with and they seem to use it really good. So let's just do that Right. You know that that was like the extent of, like the business rationale, you know. Yeah, and I think we were just fortunate Once you did it, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that was us Same kind of story in that, like we weren't, you know, nine years ago, like I probably didn't know what product market fit really was then versus now, you know, but you found it and you saw signs of stuff working, um. So do you remember any of those, like after you made the pivot and you know you got moving and you started targeting churches, focusing on their needs? Do you remember any moments where you're like, oh, this thing's like it's you know this?
Speaker 2:is the sign of life that we headed in the right direction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, our growth has started increasing, um, so churches started, you know, referring us Um, we built a couple of integrations early on that were, you know, that were great. You know, churches seem to like them, um, and we've continued building out integrations over the years. Um, and then fast forward a few years into 2020. Covid happens, yeah, and of course, you know, churches are freaking out like those first, you know, those first weeks and couple months like how are we going to actually do church? And we were one of those businesses that did benefit from that.
Speaker 1:You know a lot of churches started using Clearstream and then they just kept on using Clearstream. It's like they found it like, oh, this is great. And then, you know, as the COVID kind of subsided, or the intensity of it subsided, and we went back to kind of like our normal way of church operations. I think a lot of churches just you know like, no, we're going to still use Clearstream. We, you know it still has benefits. So there's like a number of things that. But there wasn't any kind of like inflection point where I was like, ah yes, this is a, this is the product market fit. It was just kind of stumbled into it Little by little doing things and staying focused on it?
Speaker 2:I mean, like you said, it's been what, how many years since the church focus? Eight years, Eight straight years, of you know so. And how many churches do you guys serve now?
Speaker 1:I think we have around 62 or 6,300 churches. Yeah, thousands, which is small compared to a lot of. You know other softwares, but no thousands of customers in any place.
Speaker 2:I mean that's that's like a lot of churches, you know, especially because I mean there's lots of churches but not necessarily every church is the right customer fit for everything right. So like not every church, you know your kind of average. You know 100 member church might not be using texting software but yeah, there's still hundreds of thousands of churches in america, so um yeah yeah, what? Um, as you guys have built out the platform and serve churches, what are some of the cool things that you've seen churches doing with it?
Speaker 1:I think, um, some things immediately come to mind. Um, one is like we, we have spent a lot of time over the past few years building out um like native video texting capability. So, um, building that out and launching it, I about a year ago, searches. I love that. Um, I think it's because, like you know, our, our kind of social media driven culture is becoming like video driven right, video first, um, and that's not the reason we built it out. We were just like, hey, this would be really cool to like. Let people like record a video inside of clearstream, um, you know, add captions and some of this kind of rich stuff and then actually send it through text. And in a lot of cases, you know, kind of depending on devices and stuff, a lot of cases like that's going to just play in line inside of a right there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right there.
Speaker 2:It's like when you're sending videos to your friends or whatever. It's just like happens all the time in the like person to person use case.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in application to person, which is, you know, which is what we are a to P. Application to person texting, it's not as common and it's not as fluid, for a lot of different reasons, but that's been something that's been very exciting and we're going to continue like building out and making richer and richer the. You know, the adoption of that with our customer base as poorly as we've marketed that future is actually pretty, pretty great. Yeah, something else that I I don't know that, just going back to like finding for us, finding a lot of satisfaction in what we do, um, you know, we, we send many, many, many, many millions of messages a month. You know, like our whole platform delivers. You know a lot, a lot of volume, and then people respond Okay, so the church will use clear stream, they'll send out, you know, like, just whatever they might. There might be a uh, an emergency weather event, you know, tornado happening. We need to change uh service times or cancel service times. Or you know, hey, visit us this. You know, this Sunday we're starting a new sermon series.
Speaker 1:There's just a lot of different ways that people need to you know, um, and one way that we've seen and um, it's it's not the most popular way. I really wish it was. Um, if I could, if I could, if I could make the call. But um, churches will send out like weekly prayer reminders. So they'll Wednesday, a lot of times Wednesday it'll be like hey, how can we pray for you? And they'll send it out to other people and um, without getting like too much into like the technical, you know, going down a rabbit hole, um, we see like a very, very, very small subset of those incoming messages and you know there's, there's many thousands of those coming in a day and they just go into whatever you know that church's clearsham account.
Speaker 1:But, um, we kind of have this layer that flags messages based on certain things, um, and so our team will manually review any flagged messages and sometimes we'll just like you'll see, you know from people that you know we don't know, but you'll see like incoming messages with you know people asking for prayer with just like heartbreaking stuff you know and it reminds, it reminds you on a regular basis of just like the, you know the, the hard stuff that people go through. But then also the ministry that's actually happening because of clear stream, and if it wasn't because of clear stream, we're not, so we don't have the hubris to say, like that wouldn't happen, they would go find another texting software and do the same thing. But it's cool that you're using clearstream and actually ministry is is happening in churches with people that are, that are really hurting, that actually need a lot of prayer. Right, that's cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for me super cool super cool and yeah, you're right, I mean the, uh, the, the prayer card or the prayer box or the, you know, submit your prayer or just going to the pastor, like that's existed for hundreds of years, some version of that you know, like texting. It is just the new you know.
Speaker 2:But what's cool is like it's helping churches stay current and modern and do things in ways that the world is doing it today and you guys have built a solution that's, you know, serving that purpose really well, right, so, um, so I think that's cool, and it is cool when you see messages like that. We don't necessarily get it at that level, but we'll get uh responses for, like, why people have, you know, decided to use Tithely, or we'll get feedback from, like, the customer experience team who's handling a support request, and you hear these stories of churches in need, and we saw a ton of them in COVID.
Speaker 2:Similarly, tithely was a solution that helped a lot of churches at that moment and helped a lot of churches stay open, Just because they needed to raise money and doing an in-person offering wasn't possible. So it is cool to see like, hey, you've, you've built something because you love what you do and you want to do something to serve the church. And then it's like working and you get to hear stories of it helping you know, do ministry or helping churches do ministry all over the place is pretty cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was cool.
Speaker 2:What, what, uh, you know, I guess, as we I don't want to take all day as we wrap up like what's on your mind now as it relates to you added email, uh, you added video based messaging. What's the future hold Like what's on your mind, what, what help? You know you're in that communications part of the church, so I don't know if there's things that you're seeing happen in the space or things you're interested in helping churches do.
Speaker 1:Is the question what does the future hold for church software or what does the future hold for Clearstream?
Speaker 2:No, I'm just thinking more communications, because that's the name that you live in. So it might be Clearstream, it might be communications in general, but if you have some ideas around church software, I think that's cool too. So answer however you feel.
Speaker 1:Okay, clearstream. So I think some of the cool things that are happening well related to you guys. We built an integration with Breeze recently. Yeah, I love it. We're just starting to to like, uh, roll that out and so, um, if you use breeze, you can sync everything, um, all of your breeze basically your, your, your database and breeze your contacts into clear stream that updates every single day so as your data, as your data changes in breeze, it updates inside of inside of clear share we need to make sure all the breeze users know so, uh, noted on my end to make sure we get the word out.
Speaker 1:So we, we worked quite a lot on that earlier this year and that's only a few weeks out into the wild, so it's brand new.
Speaker 1:We are pretty, I'd say, product, not we are very product driven, um, in the way that, like our, our product years, everything with our company, and so, um, we're always refining it and so, uh, it wouldn't, this wouldn't be exciting for people who aren't using clear stream, but for people who are, we've got a new version of clear stream coming out.
Speaker 1:Um, you guys would know more than us, but, kind of as, as your software grows, it's like you, you, you, you're always fighting like entropy, where it's like things just become more complex. Yeah, and that makes it harder for, like, the small church who just wants to get up and, you know, get it, start using, you know, tithely or clearsharing, and just do what they need to do. They don't need all the bells and whistles that have been built in over the years and so, um, you know that's that's something that we are always internally fighting is like we want clearsharing to be really fluid and really snappy and quick, whether you're a mega church that's using clear stream or you're a small 200 or 100 person church, and so we're, you know we're we're trying to keep things as simple, you know, as as possible. So we've got a lot of updates coming with with our web app and our mobile apps. So that's kind of what's coming on the horizon for clear shame specific.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's very cool. Um, what do? What do you find, uh, in the messaging space? Uh, cause you guys, you know you see it for a certain number of churches, uh, and this is more for, like, as people are listening to this and they're thinking, oh, text messaging, or even email, for that matter, maybe we do a little bit of it or maybe we don't text at all. What are some of the things that you see churches doing really well on your platform that other churches could imitate? Right, or kind of take a nod from them and go, oh, I should do whatever that kind of weekly message or this kind of thing where you see a lot of good traction with your customers.
Speaker 1:Gosh, there's people in our company that would answer it so much better than I'm going to answer, but I'll give a swing here. A swing here, um, I think it's. It's uh, the medium of texting is. It's almost like what twitter was in the very beginning, as opposed like you have, like facebook and twitter you want to like relate facebook to email, where it can be a lot more richer, long form content. And then again, a decade ago, and then you had twitter, which was 160 or 140 characters, I don't remember what it was right super short form, that's kind of sms and email where you have like rich, super long form, short, quick form, um, and that line is really hard to delineate a lot of times and it actually takes a lot of thought into writing what you need to write in an email concisely enough for texting. We have features to let you like append, you know, an email as a link into your texts and you know, do all that kind of stuff. But just to write short, I think our character limit is like 560 characters or something like that. It's still a short, you know, it's a very short paragraph.
Speaker 1:Yep, um, so churches who can write very concisely, um, you know, without a ton of like, um, exclamation points and all in just, very concisely, that's, that's um. I think that's the biggest challenge with texting, but that's the one that's going to pay off a lot. It's just really good, concise writing, respecting the medium that you're using. It's not email, it's text. People want to just get that notification on their phone. That's the beauty of texting. It's ubiquitous on all mobile devices, but they want to get that notification on their phone. If they're in a meeting right now and they look up at their phone, they read it in two seconds and they they're done right. You're not opening up an email and reading this long form, and so um. Churches that do that well find more success with texting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, like the Sunday morning church reminder. Just, you know church at 10, see you there, something simple, um. But I find those kinds of messages from my church like actually very helpful. Maybe not Sunday morning, that's a bit built in, but like other things that are going on, a quick little reminder like that, uh, is like actually very useful, you know, so my church will do it for, like, men's midweeks or some of some special event or simple stuff.
Speaker 2:But it's like the text is really nice because I didn't get buried in an email somewhere that I didn't quite catch and I got reminded in a more like kind of time sensitive manner, like closer to when it mattered to me. Those kinds of messages personally so very good man, thanks. Those kinds of messages personally Um, so very good man. Thanks for coming on the show today. Where should folks go to check out clear stream?
Speaker 1:Um, our website is clear streamio. Uh, we couldn't getcom because some like multinational German bank, I think owns clear streamcom. So you won't find us at clear streamcom, you'll find us at clearstreamcom. You'll find us at clearstreamio.
Speaker 2:So io Don't go to com or just search clearstream. Search clearstream on Google and you'll be number two. I'm behind the bank.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I hope we're number one, but I should go check that.
Speaker 2:You should check that one. Oh man, well, great, thanks for coming on the show. Guys, go check out clear stream. If you're you, if you're a breeze user and you're listening to this, uh, definitely check out the new integration, um and uh, it's a great show. So, guys, thanks for tuning in, michael, thanks for joining, and we'll catch you guys next week on another episode of modern church leader. See ya thanks, frank.