Have you ever wondered about the challenges faced by healthcare providers in abortion care? On the Off-White Coat podcast, we dive into this complex issue with the help of our esteemed guest, Patrice D'Amato, a seasoned nurse with 39 years of experience. Patrice peels back the layers on issues such as language barriers, cultural differences and the impact of laws limiting access to abortion, bringing a wealth of knowledge and insight from her extensive career in various settings like hospitals, abortion clinics, and universities.
Patrice takes us on a compelling journey through her career, sharing personal stories and highlighting the experiences of her patients. We explore the complexity of providing remote care, pre-screening patients, and the impact of cultural and language barriers on healthcare. The discussion dives deeper into the turbulent landscape of abortion, presenting a nuanced view of the Me Too movement, small town judgments, and the powerful stories of women who have sought abortions.
We wrap up the episode with an illuminating discussion on the Turn Away Study and its profound impact on women's lives. We delve into the mental health repercussions faced by women who were steadfast pro-life but had to undergo an abortion, and how the Me Too movement has further complicated the landscape. Patrice also sheds light on the lack of training in medical schools when it comes to abortion care. This thought-provoking episode is a compelling blend of personal anecdotes, professional insights, and important discussions. Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of abortion care and its many intricacies.
Have you ever wondered about the challenges faced by healthcare providers in abortion care? On the Off-White Coat podcast, we dive into this complex issue with the help of our esteemed guest, Patrice D'Amato, a seasoned nurse with 39 years of experience. Patrice peels back the layers on issues such as language barriers, cultural differences and the impact of laws limiting access to abortion, bringing a wealth of knowledge and insight from her extensive career in various settings like hospitals, abortion clinics, and universities.
Patrice takes us on a compelling journey through her career, sharing personal stories and highlighting the experiences of her patients. We explore the complexity of providing remote care, pre-screening patients, and the impact of cultural and language barriers on healthcare. The discussion dives deeper into the turbulent landscape of abortion, presenting a nuanced view of the Me Too movement, small town judgments, and the powerful stories of women who have sought abortions.
We wrap up the episode with an illuminating discussion on the Turn Away Study and its profound impact on women's lives. We delve into the mental health repercussions faced by women who were steadfast pro-life but had to undergo an abortion, and how the Me Too movement has further complicated the landscape. Patrice also sheds light on the lack of training in medical schools when it comes to abortion care. This thought-provoking episode is a compelling blend of personal anecdotes, professional insights, and important discussions. Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of abortion care and its many intricacies.
Hello everybody and welcome to the Off White Coat podcast. I'm your host, Jordan Abney, and today I'm joined by a very special guest. She's the author of The View From the Clinic: one nurse's journey in abortion care. She has been working for 38 years as a practicing nurse in both clinical and academic aspects of this field. She's been in abortion clinic for many years and she's here to speak with us today. Please help me welcome Patrice D'Amato. Perfect, Did I get it? That's right, You did.
Patrice D'Amato:That was perfect. Thank you, it's so great to be here.
Jordan Abney:Yes, yes, i'm just glad that you actually wanted to speak with us and everything. I read a little bit of the excerpt of your book and we have something in common. Yeah, we're both Hispanic files. Oh good, i love the Spanish culture as well. It feels like every time I go anywhere, it's either to South America or Latin America.
Patrice D'Amato:Yeah, yeah.
Jordan Abney:So starting to pick up Spanish just a little bit. It's still pretty bad, but Yeah, i'm not great either.
Patrice D'Amato:I'm okay, but yeah.
Jordan Abney:It's the getting around. Yeah, i guess that's one point that I did want to bring up because I've read it, as the excerpt in your book was you had the lady that there was just the language barrier set up, she was drinking the mate or whatever.
Patrice D'Amato:Yeah.
Jordan Abney:And the pill the lady was taking I think correct me if I'm wrong, but it was the birth control pill, yep, and it was actually falling under the leaves or whatever, of the drink. And that was something that I actually experienced once before was this lady was drinking this chocolate drink that was given to her from her friend And she said it was to get rid of headaches, but her blood sugar shot up into the 400s And so she was diabetic and everything. And she just told me the name and luckily, i went and looked it up and then I showed a resident and the resident was like, oh, that's a cultural thing That's got condensed milk and chocolate and everything. And I was like, oh, this is what's causing her blood sugar to shoot up. Yeah Right, and so you do have to pay attention to the cultural stuff And that's. You know, that was just a unique thing that I saw. I read in the book. I was like, oh, we've had a similar situation with that one.
Patrice D'Amato:You'll see more. You'll see a lot more.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, all the time. Yeah, yeah, i really just wanted to. Besides getting on that whole side, i wanted to ask you about, like, your time. So how many years have you been a nurse And are you still a nurse right now?
Patrice D'Amato:I am working like I would say I call myself sent me retired. So I've been a nurse now for 39 years Yeah, a really long time. So I always tell people I you know, nursing school can be very short. So I was 20 when I became a registered nurse. So I used to joke It wasn't actually a joke, it was funny I couldn't go out after work. I would give morphine IV morphine all day long, and then I couldn't go out for a drink after work.
Jordan Abney:I was underage. Oh yes.
Patrice D'Amato:I was underage, so that's why I just say I'm not that old, i just started really young, but yeah, so the trajectory into nursing can be pretty short, unlike medical school, which takes so long.
Jordan Abney:So yeah, i'm like at the edge of 30 and.
Patrice D'Amato:I know it's, you know it's just crazy to me and it's just frustrating. So yeah, but I did keep going back to school. So I always worked. I worked as an RN. I went back for my bachelor's degree, I went back for my master's degree. all while working, you know, I was ending up taking, like I had to keep taking organic chem again because the other one didn't, you know, transfer to the next university and all. So I was like working as an RN on a med surge unit in the evenings, three to 11 shift, and I was going back to school taking chem, bio, all that stuff in the mornings. So it's like backwards a little bit from medical school or it can be, Yeah, So it's. it's kind of kind of wild.
Jordan Abney:Did you always know you wanted to go into nursing?
Patrice D'Amato:I did.
Jordan Abney:I did.
Patrice D'Amato:So I actually have a chapter in the book all about my mom, Doris the nurse. So my mom was a nurse and she actually was the person who, well, you know I didn't go into abortion care till later, but she certainly got my backup about it because she worked as a nurse in the fifties. I mean she was a student nurse and then she had to. Once you get married, you're not, you weren't allowed to be a nurse anymore, like you had to leave, you had to go be a housewife, yeah, and she was really bummed out because she really loved working but she had kids and that was what you did in the sixties. But she did tell us stories and I don't want to give it all away because it's in the book, but she did tell us stories about the time before abortion was legal and what that looked like in the hospital She went.
Patrice D'Amato:She went from a rural town where she grew up and she went to work in the big city and, you know, saw patients and there's one I described pretty poignantly that she described to me who you know was raped. It was a woman, a married woman, who had been raped and was forced to carry the pregnancy, and my mom was there, you know not to get into it a lot, but it was a question of you know the paternity question was pretty clear once the baby was born that this was the result of the rape, not from her husband, and you know there was so much drama. The husband left her. You know the baby was like I don't know, they don't know, given up for adoption or whatever. So anyway, my mom's stories were like really powerful for me and did help shape some of my interests.
Patrice D'Amato:I didn't go into OBGYN, i didn't go into women's health actually, and it's not my favorite thing, to be honest with you, and again I outlined that in detail in the book, so I don't want to go into all of that but, i, did spend most of my time with you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you Just a plug but I already say it.
Patrice D'Amato:So there's a and it's an easy book. It's an easy kind of fun, Like, if you can believe it. It's a lot of. It's really funny, especially to medical professionals.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, The way you were like describing everybody, I was like oh, okay, like yeah more fun than like medical textbooks. It's like boom boom, boom, boom boom.
Patrice D'Amato:You know somebody said to me. they were like this is like a girlfriend's guide to abortion. I was like, yes, and that's what I want. I don't want to be like lecturing people. There is a whole chapter about the history of abortion I'll talk about, you know, medical care and all that kind of stuff. but I really just want this to be, you know, like an informative but entertaining thing. So, anyway, i did go into nursing. My mom, you know, kind of opened the door. I was really sick of hospitals, like sick of hospitals. I had worked in hospitals for like 14 years.
Patrice D'Amato:And I was like I got. I got my master's, i became a nurse practitioner, so I left and went to the abortion clinics, worked there for like eight years. Then I went into teaching. I taught at the university for a while And only recently I started working for the abortion clinics Again. I always call that my women's health home because it really hasn't been the major focus of my career, but I do love that. I do love that care. So right now I'm working part-time for them.
Patrice D'Amato:I'm actually doing telehealth telemedicine So I handle the calls from patients who are experiencing complications or have questions post-abortion both medical and what we call surgical or in-office abortions, that you know really want to call it surgical, necessarily, but we still kind of just call it that.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, how many patients do you usually see a day?
Patrice D'Amato:Well, right now I'm only working remotely and I'm on call. So, like I'll just be on call like 24 hours And it depends. I mean I cover five clinics in different states, So Georgia has become very quiet because of the loss.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, so it used to be my hop in.
Patrice D'Amato:It was my hop in state And you know I would get calls from all you know neighboring states and it was always really a challenge, because we you know the challenges, like you know I had one woman. I was, yeah, you should come back and be seen, and it was something like she had a retained sponge or something and I was like, okay, we'll get you in and we'll just and she said, no, give, i have a mirror, tell me what to do. I just drove 12 hours from Texas.
Jordan Abney:Oh, my goodness.
Patrice D'Amato:Yep. So I was like can I curse?
Jordan Abney:Yeah, you can. No, you can certainly curse, though It's fair game.
Patrice D'Amato:God, I was like shit, shit, You know So, and you know a couple other right, like it was just like a thing that.
Patrice D'Amato:So anyway, it's been nuts. And then, like you know, i have patients like who are coming over from other states, like I've had, and mostly in the South, i will say, like Mississippi, alabama, and they're like I'm not going to my hospital Are you kidding me? Cause I'm like you got to go to the ER. Yeah, so I do manage people and I try to manage as much as I can on the phone, but right now I'm working in the capacity of being an RN. I put my nurse practitioner license on an active cause. I don't really like being a nurse practitioner. It's like I could have gone to med school. That's really, you know. It is The job of a mid-level provider, without you know, and I really love the aspects of being an RN. So I'm older now and I'm pretty confident in who I am and what I do And I I don't need to work in that capacity. So right now I'm really really loving just working as a nurse and talking to people through stuff.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, You can tell. You can tell by like the passion in your voice and like you just seem really excited when you're like, ah, so that's awesome, It seems like you're in the right spot. Yeah, Cause that was something that I learned recently too. Like I've had been looking up stuff. Is that sometimes, when people travel, there was like and I think it was in like the state of Missouri or whatever that they were talking about You had 72 hours. I didn't really understand They. There was like a gap where you had to wait 72 hours.
Jordan Abney:They would drive 12 hours and wait 72. And then which? I guess that was just to give them a chance to reach their mind.
Patrice D'Amato:Yes, it's like a waiting period, you know, and okay, i, i, okay, i guess I get it, but this one lady.
Jordan Abney:it was due for her own safety, I think she had adenomyosis or some other kind of uterine at knee So there was no way it was going to happen. She had a whole emotional incident. It was a pretty interesting documentary is abortion stories women tell and it's on HBO or whatever. but it it gave me at least a little bit more insight and at least to some of the lumped it just shows that she was very emotional. Things that, because I don't necessarily keep up with all of the laws you could probably tell me oh, i can't either.
Patrice D'Amato:I mean they're. They're so nebulous, that's the problem. Yeah, but yeah, and then the uterine. At me I mean like she was at risk, but okay, so she was at risk having the procedure, she's also at risk carrying the pregnancy like it's just a shitty situation.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, so what was that common to? did you see that I'm curious to know, like how many of the people and this is without breaking like HIPAA or whatever, but oh, yeah like how many, how many people came in and actually had like one of the hard nose for pregnancy, or I guess you could go first on like what would be like a hard? no, like you wouldn't want that person.
Patrice D'Amato:He said hard nose. I'm like what a heart Yeah.
Jordan Abney:Indication.
Patrice D'Amato:Thank you, Thank you, okay, so Very few. I mean well, and the other thing is they get pre-screened. So you know it's a surgery center, it's ambulatory care. Basically it's an ambulatory surgery center. So anybody who you know might have like Factor X, like Christmas tree disease or like contraindications to anesthesia or, you know, like weird things like that, they would be referred to the hospital.
Patrice D'Amato:So that stuff it gets done, it's just considered a high-risk case. So and there's there's not a lot of them because these are young, you know, women of childbearing age, so you don't see a lot of really weird things generally in that population, which was part of what drew drew me to it too, after working in hospitals and seeing the sick in University hospitals, like where people are transferred in from outside hospitals and you just see, like the crazy, sick, weird stuff that you see. So when you you know in a, in a freestanding clinic, you just send you know young, healthy people. So there's very few, yeah, very few.
Jordan Abney:I didn't know if they were like how many were elective and then how many were Like they saw yeah, yeah.
Patrice D'Amato:So we did get some that were not like so we would. I would say like 98% were elective. But then we did see patients with fetal demise And I I did write about that too because like that's really hard when you have somebody who has a fetal demise especially You know, i'm giving all my chapters away But somebody who may have gone through a lot of infertility treatment and I saw it, you know And then they show up and they're like 14 weeks and it was fetal demise and they're sitting next. All these people Who are having an elective abortion. Like it sucks, it's just It's a really hard situation.
Patrice D'Amato:But how many? it was rare, like well, like not I mean rare, rare because like it's weird. But abortion clinic, like abortion sort, like the procedure and stuff, it's a specialty and so you know, to get really good, effective care, you would send these people to like a women's center, an abortion clinic, because we know what we're doing. You know, and so it was, that that's always a challenge when you have somebody who's there And they're not super happy about it, like always I would say you know anybody who's wearing maternity clothes when they come in They're not happy to be there like they wanted this baby.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, yeah, that's tough, yeah they, because I mean for one, if there's like fetal demise or something That's already tragic as it is, and then to have to go somewhere else and do all this it can be, i can imagine that the job was emotional On a day-to-day basis and now what's happening?
Patrice D'Amato:This is even sicker and worse is that, like somebody like that, if they're in the hospital and they had fetal demise, like The laws are so unclear that there's a lot of places Is where the, the obj yn's are and the nurses, like the staff, are standing around waiting for this woman to get septic Because they're not allowed to. They're not allowed, they're not permitted To terminate the pregnancy until the mother's life is at risk. And I'm not kidding you.
Jordan Abney:I am not goodness, So yeah that's what I was about to say.
Patrice D'Amato:So they're standing there like huh, How septic is she? How long do we wait? And you know, when somebody's septic you don't have there's no cookie cutter answer to that And they could end up just dying because, like you know, it's sepsis right.
Jordan Abney:Yeah.
Patrice D'Amato:I. I don't know how people do it.
Jordan Abney:I don't. Yeah, it's not really best to wait till they're septic to treat sepsis Right.
Patrice D'Amato:So they're like trying to figure out am I gonna get? am I gonna be hauled off to jail for doing this? Like, how do we document that?
Jordan Abney:You know like it and it can be tricky, especially when there's laws in place that aren't associated with a hospital. like you know, in the hospital, if the hospital was to govern themselves, they would say, oh okay, we need to just do this, but Right, or there would be a board or protocols or something.
Patrice D'Amato:But there are no protocols, because these were. These don't even make sense. These like wait till the mother's life is at risk. Even though you know you know there's ancephaly, the baby doesn't even have it like brain matter. That's sick and cruel and that's what's happening.
Jordan Abney:So if the state says it's completely illegal and something like that happens, i guess that's when they have to just wait until the mother's life is in jeopardy. Do you know how many states that is?
Patrice D'Amato:Well, there's, i think there's 15 states with restrictions. The restrictions vary and I am no expert on this stuff, like I'm a clinician, just like you. So I, i don't, i just I can't even like I have enough to do.
Jordan Abney:You see the yeah, you see the people too. Which is one of the hardest part is when you see like the actual person and their individual issue and it trumps all the other politics. Oh my god.
Patrice D'Amato:Yeah, but it all sits on it right. So, like I was like when I was going back to return to work for the clinics and I'm talking to you know The interviewer, and she's like, oh, i gotta go. They, the protesters, just cut our, cut our, our water lines And we're in the middle of surgery day. They have all these patients, you know like 30 patients in there. They're in the middle of doing cases and the protesters managed to cut their hot and cold water lines So they had no water. Like so that's on top of all of the yeah, the everyday stuff. So It's just, it's just wild right now.
Jordan Abney:Yeah the. The one thing that I did get them like the most important thing I got from that documentary was like It seemed like the biggest problem out of all of it, because I'm I'm neither choosing a stance, a political side or whatever But the worst people that were doing the most harm were the protesters outside that were like harassing Yeah the, the ladies from one, obviously, if you protested on like Capitol Hill or anywhere else, but to stand outside the actual place and like, oh yeah, because they badgered the, not only the people going in, but all the workers going in, all the coming out.
Patrice D'Amato:And so I was curious to I guess you've had plenty of experience with yeah, oh, yeah, but I and I hate to keep plugging this, but you will my one of my other favorite Chapters is about our friend the protester, joe the protester. So, yes, you get badgered in, you get badgered out, you get spit on, you know, and you're just it's hard enough, the job is hard.
Patrice D'Amato:Yeah, i mean you're just trying to do ananda, oh man, you know I went by the other day, i had to drop some stuff off and the, you know, the protesters are out there And I'm just gonna say this, because I'm just gonna say it, the, the, the white ladies from the Catholic Church were all out there with their. You know, don't, don't, don't, abort. Your baby will help you. And then, outside the clinic, it was a busy day and you know, all my african-american patients are out there like on their cell phones looking at them like lady, get a clue, get a clue.
Jordan Abney:Yeah.
Patrice D'Amato:So I just walk by it all, i'm just like, here I am.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, and so you have to almost compartmentalize and just walk in, blinded to the fact that all the chaos around you is going.
Patrice D'Amato:Yes, Yes, yes, and you know, like it's just, and everybody you know is there, like I. This clinic is in a suburban setting near, near my home. So, like I know people that going in and out on both sides, like And they, you know, they see me and I'm like hey. Yeah hey, protester or.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, i do start to get to know the community one way or another if you work in a hospital or clinic.
Patrice D'Amato:Oh yeah, if it's big enough. You don't like I, then I, after a while I just started working over in the city, exclusively because I was like I can't. Um, i'm, you know, a soccer mom here. I just, i know too many of these people and I am just out of here because it was. But in a small town, if you're delivering care, absolutely, you see people, you know and both sides and these are not people who want to see you.
Patrice D'Amato:Let me tell you, when you walk in with your white coat on to do with their exam, they're post. You know, i used to do follow-ups and I walk in with my stethoscope, my white coat, and they're like, oh my god, i'm like, listen, listen, we all I had my can to spiel about that like, yes, it's me, yes, we know each other. But and I will tell you That when I see you next week at pta, i'm not saying anything and if you don't want to talk to me or small talk, i totally get it.
Jordan Abney:Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, i mean, because neither The patient or the protester or anybody really wants to see you in a white coat.
Patrice D'Amato:It really not there.
Jordan Abney:Not there, No that's what I meant, not. Everywhere else, Yeah, that's fine. That's fine, I mean well it depends.
Patrice D'Amato:You know there's other things that are sensitive, but like you don't talk about that stuff and my goal, honestly, is to change that in life so that we can say you know. Like you can say, oh, how was your knee replacement? Oh, you're doing good. How was your abortion Are you doing okay? Yeah, good, like that's my goal is, and I do think young people are getting a little bit more. You know like, listen, don't be judging. No, you know no haters, so I love that.
Jordan Abney:I think the the problem is the judging, because we all tend to choose A soap box that we stand on. You know we like we'll be like, oh hi, mighty over here, but then you know, we let it slip Over here. Maybe we're glutton, but yeah, we believe in something else. And so I feel like when we're judging other people, especially if we don't Live in their situation, that's sometimes The worst it breeds itself to hypocrisy, really.
Patrice D'Amato:On the other end, It is really endemic in healthcare, in the healthcare profession too. And I will just say I wanted I'm glad you said that because I wanted to talk about frequent flyers, because the nurses, when I was on their podcast, they were like, do you have frequent flyers? Like we have, you know, in the, in you know regular hospitals? I'm like, of course we have, of course you know, and I don't think that people in abortion care really want to talk about that, but we see it in the medical community. So you know, just like you have people who are, you know, in chf and like why are they back?
Patrice D'Amato:We tuned them up, we did there, we did their license, we, we educated and we did everything. And like Two weeks later, there they are with like an eight pound weight gain and like you're like why? And I think that we as healthcare providers get super judgmental and super frustrated. I don't think we mean to necessarily be judgmental. Some people you know it's the healthcare provider, some of us do and especially students, are still like I'm not gonna be like that.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, every student says that, and then, for some reason, 50% of people end up like it.
Patrice D'Amato:Like what I know? I know it always it. I guess it makes me laugh, but it makes me frustrated too.
Jordan Abney:So it does make you laugh because it's so funny. There's so many idealistic people I'm like. I feel like you're the first to turn.
Patrice D'Amato:You'll be the first one. I know it's like don't do you know, i'm never gonna be like that preceptor that I had. They were so mean, like why are they so mean and hateful? Well, you do get frustrated, but like you have to dig deeper, like you said. So that's why I love that chapter about the lady.
Patrice D'Amato:Okay, so she was, you know, 48 year old Latino female. You know gravita, 15 Paraphora, and last week let me just add to you that I had a 29 year old I'm looking her up 15 pregnancies to children, and I see it a lot. Okay, i see it, i mean a lot, because 75% of my patients are, you know, are either socioeconomically disadvantaged or they're, you know, brown or black, and you, you know, this is a population of people who are definitely being impacted the most by these crazy laws Like so and and. So you have to ask yourself, like there's so many people say, well, i mean, i believe in abortion, but like I believe in it, but it shouldn't be used for birth control, okay, all right. Well, let's think about that. Let's think about why is somebody using abortion that way? It's just like the CHF patient It is. It's just like that. And we also don't do a great job of saying well, why, what's the problem?
Patrice D'Amato:What is the problem with seven, eight or nine abortions before your, you know, 27? Let's talk about that. There's, there are some, some issues with that. But like why? why is that a problem? Is it because, like, the egg is already fertilized? Like, where are we with all of that? And and I can tell you that my patients don't always see it as a problem- So why? do. Why do we?
Jordan Abney:Yeah, i mean I guess in the only because I I assume that there would be more complications or more damage to the body the longer you, if you kept going through this process right, and especially if you let it go 12 weeks abort, 12 weeks abort, 12 weeks abort, especially with the surgery, i could see that And I could see maybe where it would be more like expensive, but I definitely the judging is the problem that I can't, because you're just to me, if they don't care, right, like if they're paying for the service or whatever, it's kind of like, what do we?
Patrice D'Amato:do You know why are we judging the right? Yeah, how do you?
Jordan Abney:judge somebody else is the biggest thing I have a problem with.
Patrice D'Amato:Look at everybody's charts. I get to look at all their medical and contraceptive history And I will say to you that these people are using they are trying to use, birth control. Okay, like 90%, more probably 95% of these charts. When I look at somebody who is 15th pregnancy, eighth termination, i go back through their chart. They have tried everything. So even then they've gotten the message. They've been on the pill, they've been on the patch, they've done the shot, they've had the implant. They run out of money. They don't have the ability to get to a consistent provider, like there's a million reasons for it. So we have done a good job, i think, of teaching people why it probably isn't great to rely on abortion for birth control, but there's so many socioeconomic and psychosocial issues around why they do it.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, that's what I was going to ask is if is it a lot of people just using it as birth control, or it's more of like lack of education or understanding of not just education in a general sense, but like medical education and understanding how all that works. So now you keep getting pregnant and you don't, you're not even, you think you're not trying, but yet you still keep being pregnant, because that is definitely a problem. Absolutely Yeah.
Patrice D'Amato:That's a huge problem, but part of the problem, so part of the problem. Yet I think people in this country do know how you get pregnant And most, like I said, 90, 95% of the women have tried something to prevent these pregnancies. It is complicated, though, because what often happens too, is they're partners, so you're also laying on top of this some partners. I can't tell you how many times a woman has put me on the phone and said please talk to my boyfriend, please talk to my husband and tell him that why I can't, you know why I can't keep doing this, you know, or why I'm not, i really can't have sex right now, and so I would talk. You know, i counsel a lot of women because they're like when can I have sex again? I'm like well, when you feel ready And more off, not more often, no, not more often than not. But sometimes they'll be like could you please tell my boyfriend that I'm not allowed to have sex for the next six weeks because he won't get off of me?
Jordan Abney:Yeah, yeah.
Patrice D'Amato:And I'm like well.
Jordan Abney:I mean I'm not gonna lie.
Patrice D'Amato:I need a doctor's note. Right, exactly, yeah, so you have all that going on as well.
Jordan Abney:I remember when I was in my OBGYN rotation is there's some people that while they could go through with the pregnancy like it might be very unlikely to even go to full term or whatever. So I remember seeing this lady and she was like 300, 350 pounds giving birth to twins And it was still early in the development stage. And I remember the doctor while it was a Catholic hospital So he couldn't actually say they couldn't do any abortion, but he was like honey, you really don't need to do this. And he was a very old, older man but he so he's very blunt And he was just like you don't need to go through all of this just because I don't see it actually going to term. Now. Maybe it did or whatever. But you had written about somebody else that was like 48 years old And I think they had like seven kids already. They'd gotten pregnant again. The older you get to, you increase your risk of complications and non-homologous recombination. So is there ever an age where you're kind of like maybe we shouldn't go through everything?
Patrice D'Amato:Go through with having an abortion or pregnancy.
Jordan Abney:Pregnancy.
Patrice D'Amato:Oh yeah, my oldest patient was going to be 50 when she delivered, like if she had carried to term. So you know, i guess that's possible, but it's also real risk.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, yeah, like it feels like when you're playing with the odds and you've rolled the dice.
Patrice D'Amato:I mean, you know, there's those women that are like getting implanted, like you know, in Italy, you know, and they're like 60 because they're doing you know they're a surrogate for somebody and all that kind of stuff, but it wouldn't be age so much as it might be other complications, like other comorbidities, that might you know?
Patrice D'Amato:you know that you would consider, in terms of counseling somebody, whether to carry or whether not to carry A lot of the counseling too. You know people have this perception that at abortion clinics nobody asks. They're like yeah, you want an abortion? fine sign here. It doesn't really happen like that. Like you, they do have to go through you know options counseling because and then right across the street there's always options, those fake clinics. Have you seen those? So I used to have patients show up and they're like why did they tell me down the street that I'm killing my baby? Like so these centers are set up? Oh, they're there, trust me, they're there, they're usually like blocks away?
Patrice D'Amato:Yeah, they're, so they're called options pregnancy counseling. You'll see them, they're everywhere Pregnancy counseling centers. Like options is a big one. They actually even make them look like an abortion clinic, so that. But they're actually operated by pro life groups and they look just like a medical clinic, but they're usually staffed by volunteers. They might have a medical person at them who is very pro life, but yeah, they give them information about like this you know all the medical bad things that will happen to you if you have an abortion. And then they you know the patients walk away scared.
Patrice D'Amato:So, yeah, those places are pretty popular. Yeah, they're gonna tell you they went to a place like that and they're gonna say yeah but the doctor told me I'm gonna get breast cancer because I had an abortion. There's an old study and actually that's on a billboard near me You get breast. abortion causes breast cancer. Have you seen that one?
Jordan Abney:I haven't seen the billboard or anything I haven't. I don't remember learning about that either, but lots, because it really isn't a thing. Yeah, I was gonna say I was like I don't know, I find hard to a real accredited medical school, but it is So thank God, I didn't learn about that There was a study back in, like the 60s or 70s, and they did link.
Patrice D'Amato:There was a correlation, but it wasn't causation, you know and it's so they keep touting this thing. You're gonna get breast cancer. So you will hear stuff like well, you know, from patients, well, i read on the internet that you know I'm never gonna have children. You don't have children If I do this. and you're like what do you say? Like, stop reading the internet.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, i mean, everything on the internet is true, right.
Patrice D'Amato:Oh, and now there's TikTok. So I just saw that one at this girl, like, guess what? You can't get pregnant if you're not in love. I'm like, oh my God.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, And the crazy thing is like I'm the oldest of like seven, So all of my sisters are much, much younger And so they get like you can get so much information from TikTok, from like them, but then also half of it could be just faults and people just playing around.
Patrice D'Amato:Oh yeah, you have no way of knowing. So really, you have no way of knowing If you're not a medical person. It's really, it's, it's scary. So, of course, there's tons of misinformation out there, more than ever, more than when I started practice. And you're, you're right, you're stepping right into it, you know.
Jordan Abney:And you can't even Google, like I've found it even difficult. I'm thinking about something that I've already learned, and so I'm like, oh, what is that molecular mechanism of action of something that I type into Google and Google's like you may have testicular cancer. And I'm like, oh my God.
Patrice D'Amato:That's not really what I was looking for.
Jordan Abney:You're like I okay, and then you're like, oh, i completely see how people get mixed up And it's just super confusing. You know, i'm like just looking for one thing and it's like you may have factor five, and you know.
Patrice D'Amato:I know I mean you thought that anyway go see your doctor, yeah, i know Like well, in medical school, you know, or nursing school oh my God, maybe I have that. But, like, if you're a layperson and you're relying on this information and then it's really hard as the provider right, like people are telling you this and they're convinced and you're like, you know, it's really not a thing where you're saying I don't know how to help you here.
Jordan Abney:So one question I want I did want to ask you is were there any difficulties in writing your book, switching from the clinical side? You've been a clinician essentially since you were 20. And then you decided to write a book. Was it difficult to do the switch And what were your intentions when you started writing the book?
Patrice D'Amato:Okay, so, yeah, so it was. I mean, this is a big change for me. I wasn't an author by background. I always liked writing. You know I enjoyed writing, but I didn't. I didn't ever plan on writing a book. I was just going to, you know, work and teach and whatever until I retired. So what happened a couple years ago was the Me Too movement. Remember Me Too.
Jordan Abney:Yeah.
Patrice D'Amato:And so I'm listening And I walked away from abortion care specifically, like in the early 2000s, because I was like people are not. No one can talk rationally. We can't. We can't talk rationally, like you can't have a rational discussion. So I was like, all right, there's other things I can do. This is one specialty and I am done, i just can't. So I walked away from it. But then, like 15 years into teaching and doing some other things, and then this Me Too thing came up and I listened one day I'm listening to this politician talking about how they want to tax women's sanitary products, because so you should pay tax on your tampons and all that stuff, and there was this big debate about it. It was like right during, like Me Too. And this politician's like well, they could. I don't understand why, why we shouldn't, why this should be tax free. I mean you just hold the blood and then when you go to the bathroom, like if you pee it out, and I was like, okay, i'm done, like I'm done.
Jordan Abney:I'm sure it was a male.
Patrice D'Amato:It was a male a married man And I'm like okay, you're a married man with, like, children. How do you not know the basics here And how are you making decisions about this? So I was like, all right, i'm writing, that's it, i'm gonna. I just have to. I have to talk about this. Nurses have to write. Physicians are, i think, better at writing. Like I love Atul Gawande, bless his heart, like he's amazing And you don't hear much from nurses in that aspect of it. Like you said that really human, like down and dirty.
Patrice D'Amato:Like we're in it up to our elbows every day, kind of thing. And I was like this is it? I'm done, i am writing this book. I'm gonna write, let's see What would interest people most to get them informed, because they're clearly not informed. And I was like, oh well, i did abortion for eight years. That's a great topic. It's about it's abortion, it's sex, it's you know, shame.
Patrice D'Amato:It's like ooh, let me be on the let me be on the wall, a fly on the wall of the abortion clinic. So I was like, all right, i can write about that. And as I started writing like, my instinct was to write like a good college you know term paper right, because that's what you and I do.
Jordan Abney:We write like an APA format. Instantly go into nerd mode. Yeah, You're like okay.
Patrice D'Amato:Yeah, the first thing I did was a lit search, you know.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, exactly.
Patrice D'Amato:Because that's what I do, and so I did do that, and the good portion of it is that and I have, like you know, five pages of citations because I, you know, as a medical, you know person with that background, i feel like I owe it to people to give them valid and reliable resources to go to afterward, or at least know that I did it, like you got to look up the history of abortion. When you get to that part you'll be squirming, squirming.
Jordan Abney:Yeah.
Patrice D'Amato:You know, that whole egg and sperm thing, that's new. It's new. That was never, ever what anybody thought up until recently. Well, for the Catholic church, like about 125 years ago, and for the Southern Baptist church, oh, the 80s abortion was fine. The sperm and egg are not, were not considered a soul. It didn't have a soul or an installment until 40 days for males, 40 days gestation for males, 80 days gestation for females. Why, We don't know. But it came from, actually, it came from St Augustine, like it. It's got some really strong historical roots. So I started researching it and then I was like, oh, oh, okay, well, i got to make this entertaining as well. So I and I started to talk about my own stories, because some of these stories are my own, like I talk about my own miscarriage and I actually weave that into the stories. And then it was, it was spontaneous abortion, not an elective abortion.
Patrice D'Amato:Okay, But, there are also miscarriages and abortion.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, it's still listed as one medically. But, it's funny how we take moral sides. Right To the different sides, but yeah, and the categories, you would just list it, but nobody's judging in a medical chart. They just like okay, we just need to see.
Patrice D'Amato:Well, they do split it out too, and you know that's the other thing women ask all the time. One of the most common questions I get is do I have to tell my doctor it was an abortion, elective abortion? all the time Do I, when I'm sent into the ER? if I have to send them, they're like do I have to tell them I'm like, well, you know, you should, you should feel comfortable and you should feel safe to do it. You know and listen.
Jordan Abney:That's more of it. Yeah, you should feel comfortable because it doesn't. It helps grow the history, but it doesn't make. It shouldn't be a point of contention.
Patrice D'Amato:But it is. Let me tell you, i'm like I've had so many patients say I, my doctor, lectures me all the time about being pro-life. My excuse, my primary care doctor is very pro-life And she found out I did the book. Oh my God, we went into it. My blood pressure was so crazy And I was like, okay, this is not therapeutic for me. I'm here as the patient, you have to stop. And she's like all right, all right, all right, all right.
Jordan Abney:You know She bless you out. then checks your blood pressure and it's like why is it high?
Patrice D'Amato:She's like you're not increasing my blood pressure Med. I will check it out at home after this, because I'll be fine So yeah, yeah, So it's like. so what did you ask me? You wanted to know.
Jordan Abney:Well, okay. So I wanted to know what were you you've kind of already gone on to it about what your intentions were when you were writing the book, Oh yeah, yeah, And I actually thought that you did a really good job. I've only read a little bit of it, but, like you gave very like factual information And then when you were painting the pictures of all the people, you were definitely doing it in a very literal, literary way. That's why I was almost curious Did you have like a what do they call them? Like shadow writers or somebody that goes?
Patrice D'Amato:over. Thank you, i'm so honored. No, i did not.
Jordan Abney:I read that myself, i'm kind of needed one for that kind of painting.
Patrice D'Amato:Yeah, No you're right, thank you, i'm so. I feel so honored because, no, i wrote them. I wrote them from my memories, and I wrote because I'm a writer too, you know like later on in life, you have time to discover things in yourself that you didn't really know you had.
Patrice D'Amato:I thought I was good at turnpapers but turns out I'm actually a really good writer. I started doing a lot of journaling as well, like before that, to try to like put things in place, so no. And when I sent them to you know, my former colleagues at the abortion center, like how did you remember? Oh, my God, you remember that person, you remember that person. And I did take the stories and I condensed them and move them around a little to change up, because this is all real stuff, like everything I'm telling you.
Patrice D'Amato:I may have like taken two patient stories and like kind of condensed or three, or they're just so super common, like I would see the same things. Like I had a reviewer say oh, this was really hard to read because I know somebody who went through. I've known so many people have gone through these things. So I actually took composites and I became like a literary person. It was hard to write like a literary person but I wanted it to be literary, i wanted it to be fun. And then in the middle of the book I just went all total fix. Like it looks like fiction, fiction writing. And I will say technically it is because I took composites and I took gems from my own memory. But no, i wrote it all. Thank you Oh like non-fiction.
Patrice D'Amato:Yeah, like I took. You know, i think that's what fiction writers do anyway is like you take nuggets of reality that stick with you and then you turn them into.
Jordan Abney:Oh, yeah. So then you were more Yeah, I actually. No, I really like that because for one I could tell it kind of made it fun, But then it also, yeah, those are the times when you really like remembering that person, as they are.
Patrice D'Amato:And that.
Jordan Abney:I think is one of the key parts to this whole issue is that you have to almost see each person individually and we're trying to make rules for one side or the other, but this one's a very in it feels very individual in the topic, just in general. So you have to look at it case by case.
Patrice D'Amato:Right, you see one page, so you can't really draw your line ever No no, and that's why I wrote those fictionalized accounts too, cause, like you have to see the person in their entirety, like you have to see that lady go home after abortion or see her what's leading up to it, we don't get to see that, you and I, we don't have time.
Patrice D'Amato:So if you can write a book and sort of get that, you know the girl's down at the shore and you know the one is pregnant and swears she doesn't, she was date raped you know, like we don't see that, we don't have time for that. And yet you, you and I know, as human beings, like we're going through life with people we love or friends that we have, like we have to, we have to be able to get to that. And I do think that the whole conversation on a larger level, like all of politics, medicine, that's how we're going to get where we have to go. We're in a quagmire right now. We have our pros, pro-lifers, we have our pro-choicers, we have people fighting, fighting, fighting. And the only way we're going to get through this is one person at a time, one heart at a time.
Patrice D'Amato:Yeah, I mean, that's what I you know, opening your heart just for, like, just to see what's happening to that person.
Jordan Abney:Mm-hmm, everybody's looking to convert the other side.
Patrice D'Amato:Right, right.
Jordan Abney:In the argument and nobody is actually trying to listen. Like I have these bigot, the biggest breakthroughs of my life or times where I thought something, but then I just let the other person speak. And then I was like sometimes you still draw your line. You're like you give like a little pushback but then you walk away and you're like you know, i didn't ever think about it like that. I probably should pull out my line in the sand.
Patrice D'Amato:So my friend is a pediatrician and he teaches med students and we he was over the other day and he you just made me so happy I'm going to tell him that you said that Because he said his biggest challenge in teaching his medical students and residents is just that.
Patrice D'Amato:It's like pull up your stake out of the sand. You were trained from a very young age and you your whole life has been spent finding the right answer. And there isn't a right answer sometimes Like. So just open up and like tell the universe, tell me something new, tell me something that I didn't memorize. So yay, thank you. Yeah.
Jordan Abney:And the and you're born with these by you. Your brain is hardwired for biases, and so if you just but I found that if you go into like a clinical setting and you're like so set on, like I asked these questions, I get these answers This is we're going to, we're going to knock this out as quickly as possible.
Patrice D'Amato:Yeah.
Jordan Abney:I found that because usually it's for time you know you get in that zone and you're like let's go, let's go.
Jordan Abney:But I found that if you go in there and you're like taking everything in especially critical situations, if you take a second to pick up everything and realize the questions that they are answering and trying to get to you, you actually move way quicker and you actually get to the bottom of it. Yeah, i mean, it's really like you're like why is my brain actually telling me the right answer, but it doesn't follow any of the protocol.
Patrice D'Amato:I love it, i love it, oh, i love it. I'm so happy. So wait, what specialty do you want to go into?
Jordan Abney:Going to be emergency medicine.
Patrice D'Amato:Oh good, Well then that's the perfect place for that, because, like you don't get a diet, They're not coming in with the whole. You know all their tests done and their diagnoses and everything. It's so.
Jordan Abney:It's just got to be you listening And that's one of the things that I love about it is you're the first person to collect the history, so you really have to be. You got to take the wide-eyed approach. You can't just narrow in Right, right, because there's a lot of times where the thing that somebody's talking about isn't really the issue at hand.
Patrice D'Amato:Yeah, i know They get off track. but then you're thinking about, like why are they going on about this, like what's behind that?
Jordan Abney:Exactly. No, that's happened And I've learned that from just Luckily, my mom's an ER doctor, so I actually got to see it in person a lot way earlier where, like somebody's saying something and you're like, hey, maybe we should pay attention to that, and then she's like no, no, no, right, like There's something else off, and You'll weed it.
Patrice D'Amato:You'll learn to weed out, because sometimes it isn't like the thing you're getting to. But I will tell you this too, because I know I don't want to forget to say this. So, being on call, i'm getting calls from ER physicians and providers because they don't know how to take care of abortion patients. They are calling me on the hotline. So I just want to be really clear that, like about half of all medical schools, they're not teaching how to take care of these people, and one in every four women will have had an abortion by age 45.
Jordan Abney:So I just What was that statistic again, sorry, one in four women will have had an abortion by Oh, that's better.
Patrice D'Amato:15 years ago it was one in every three women.
Patrice D'Amato:Oh, my goodness Who had an abortion by age 45. It is the most common surgical procedure for women in this country And our ERs are freaking out. They don't know how to take care of these patients. So I'm just saying learn it. I don't mind physicians or PAs or MPs calling me at 4 am because they don't know what to do when the patient presents, because I just sent them there. But I think being able to have the confidence to be able to care for these people is super important and we're not teaching it. And in some of these states I was just looking it up before I got on because I wanted to be clear about it The medical schools, their hands are tied about teaching the content. Did you get any content on abortion?
Jordan Abney:I mean, that's what I was trying to think, especially in the schooling part, that's more a.
Patrice D'Amato:A didactic classroom.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, technical, There might be mentions about abortion, but because it's not directly in the pathway of any kind of thing, I could see why it would be left out of the literature, like of the education part. But then I will say if you're a medical student going through your rotations and you're thinking about emergency medicine, pay attention to when you are in OBGYN.
Jordan Abney:I remember that was when something I told them. I was like hey, i'm thinking about going in emergency medicine. They were like well, we're gonna teach you everything because we keep getting called for this, so you're now coming for everything.
Patrice D'Amato:We left because the ER. I was just talking with an OB nurse the other day and, like women in labor, i think the early pregnancy stuff maybe the ERs are doing okay, but and it's been since I was like a new nurse ERs don't wanna deliver babies, man, they will get them through that ER so fast. Oh no, we're not doing that.
Jordan Abney:And I could see where you're like. hey, I'm probably not the best person to be doing this, But In the late public.
Patrice D'Amato:They're shocked. They're like what do you mean really? I'm like oh yeah, really.
Jordan Abney:That's a high liability.
Patrice D'Amato:It's high liability too.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, and that's why you wanna get it out. Definitely, though, the key is to still understand all of that aspect, because that's a very common, whether it's for bodies or birth like. You're gonna have to deal with that. At least once, my mom's delivered babies in cars and Yeah, oh, gosh yeah. Everywhere, so you'd be surprised how many OB or GYN problems come in, and especially as a male. you gotta really Oh yeah. You better be comfortable at least doing some of that, not being like ah, have your freak out moment.
Patrice D'Amato:Exactly, exactly. Yeah, they're like calling me And the patients sometimes know I had somebody in Mississippi a couple months ago and she's like I'm not going there, And I was like, well, I don't know, There's nowhere else for you to go. You need an ultrasound. I don't know what to tell you, but you need an ultrasound and you need it now. And then they called me and they were like really the staff called and I was like, don't be afraid. Like you know what, you know. You do know what a uterus looks like. You do know when there's a stripe, don't freak out. But like the whole thing about abortion and You know it's making providers crazy.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, i mean it's definitely nerve wracking, especially if you don't see it very often or whatever. And it comes in and it's a little tricky and you watch something on the news earlier about it.
Jordan Abney:And now you're like ah, i was curious because we had talked about it a little bit, about how people are drawing their lines and saying, like, how do you think we can like, depoliticize abortion and come to like, or at least just come to a understanding that somewhere I guess it would have to be in the middle, because if you stick to one side or the other, it never is the right way.
Patrice D'Amato:Right. So again, i think it comes down to telling stories. Like, even in the clinical world, we love stories. Stories are a very powerful way to teach and to open minds. So we got to tell the stories And you know that whole idea of walking a mile in somebody's shoes, just both sides, both sides, that's the thing. So I taught and I tried to do that, and not just for women but for men. I have a few stories where the man is actually the main character in the abortion story, because there's a lot going on there And I think if we, you know, get too crazy about women's rights women's rights and these are men that are also suffering we're not healing And everybody's just kind of retreating further and further into their camps.
Patrice D'Amato:So I do, and I do spend some time talking about my favorite protester, pro-life protester, and where his brain is, i think, because I think we all have to own it, and inside ourselves There's conflict, there's pain, there's shame and secrecy, and so I think that the women's groups are trying to do a really good job of educating people and telling their stories, and some people you have to understand and respect that the stories are too painful. They are too painful for them to hear. I often call it like we're in the time of the fetus, now, and for people to think about the thought even my GP, the thought of, like you know, not destroying a potential life. It's so painful for them They can't hear it. Right now They can't, but like, where do we?
Patrice D'Amato:I think most people are willing to say, well, i can't bear thinking about it and it's really upsetting to me. But I also have to. I do think I understand a little bit about the women that are undergoing abortion, choosing abortion, and how it's not easy for them either. It's not easy for any of us, and that's the bottom line. None of this is easy for any of us. And to say that it is that's where we're stuck.
Jordan Abney:Yeah And that, and when somebody's yelling at you saying that it's easy for you, you're like you and you're having, i would imagine, like if I was a female that is now I'm about to do a bunch of what ifs or whatever, but if I was a female that was pregnant and decided that I was going to get an abortion, there would be so much mental weight even in just that decision, like even if I knew it was for the right motives. Like sometimes you do things for the right reasons but you feel terrible about it during the process Or after, or after Yeah, and so it's like going to do that. That's already probably that person's worst day, and the last thing I want to be is part of their worst day by being the one that yells at them. You know, like that's the thing that they also remember on their worst day is right, that was already a bad day, and now it's the worst day ever.
Patrice D'Amato:And there's a lot of that. You'll be sorry later. You'll be sorry later, okay. So the thing with that is 80% of women who are surveyed and this we have tons of date on this Their number one feeling afterward is relief.
Patrice D'Amato:There's also the turn away study which was done out of UCSF. That is phenomenal. Obviously they had to have, they had to be perfect. It had to be a perfect study. They followed women for five years who were. They followed women at an abortion clinic. They went to the clinic and they recruited patients. Percentage of them were turned away for a variety of reasons The other person and had the baby and the others who had the abortion.
Patrice D'Amato:They compared the two cohorts and the data is I won't go into it here, but it's overwhelmingly clear that the women who were able to terminate knew what they needed for their lives. Their lives, their long term outcomes are way better Lower rates of depression, lower rates of I mean their socioeconomic status is are way better and that kind of thing. Not to say the women that carried the term don't love their babies, they love their children, make no mistake, because of course you would love your child, right. So it's a. It's a beautifully done study.
Patrice D'Amato:That actually the pro life community hasn't really been able to attack, so they just don't talk about it. But the data is really strong and it's all around your perception. If you the patients that do worse, to be honest with you are people who come in They're very devout pro life people who have an abortion Clearly you could see why that person is going to struggle later. Right, because they they were super judgmental. Now they went through it and they go back to church every week and they're told that it's baby killing. So of course you're going to have some psychosocial issues afterward. If it's culturally framed that you did a terrible thing, but if it's culturally framed that it wasn't a terrible thing, it was a terrible decision that you had to make, it's going to be very different for you.
Jordan Abney:And I can even understand that, that study, because sometimes, leading up to a decision, we always feel that anxiety or whatever, especially when it can go both ways or it's really your, it's all deciding on whatever you decide to do. But once you make the decision, once you go left or you go right or whatever you're like hallelujah, thank God.
Patrice D'Amato:Right Either way, exactly, at least I mean either one would have worked.
Jordan Abney:But you know, and so yeah, were there any times where there was somebody like a grandmother bringing a daughter in or whatever, and she's wanting some like putting pressure on the other person to get an abortion?
Patrice D'Amato:Absolutely, and that is one of my other favorite chapters that you're just yeah, I got to read this whole book.
Patrice D'Amato:I got to finish the book because like it's crazy. Yes, yes, and you know. So, yeah, i don't even want to go into because I just want you to read it. But yeah, there's some really compelling stories of that And let me just tell you, like, if the patient, you know, if you're in a state where the they're emancipated minors So I will just say that an emancipated minor, if they want to have that baby and their mom doesn't want them to have the baby too bad, mom, you're a grandma now and you will probably be raising this 13 year old child And you know the rebellious teenager and the whole thing. Yeah, oh yeah, it's lively, it's a lively place.
Jordan Abney:Socially. Yeah, how did? how did you cope with like all that stress? I mean not only like protesters and everything, but just the people? I'm sure there were tears shed on a regular basis or there was just on people's situations Like I find myself leaving like the emergency room and stuff like that, and I'm like God, my life is not as bad as I thought. You know, like you're like I want to complain but I can't.
Patrice D'Amato:You know again, like it's pretty much to me, it was so similar to all aspects of you know, being a nurse and taking care of patients same as being a physician. You know what are the things that you do. Like you said, you walk out you're like, oh man, i'm going back to my normal life. After seeing you don't even have a sense of what crazy is anymore.
Jordan Abney:No, i was gonna say yeah, which I don't know if I had any of that to begin with.
Patrice D'Amato:Right. Like what is crazy? I'm not, like your sense of reality just gets so changed by all the things that you see. So it took me a long time, i would say. You know, the day to day stuff is that self care stuff that we do, and I think your generation is better than any of us so far in doing the things that you need to do meditating, journaling, releasing. You know those things. Often, of course, talking to your colleagues, like you can talk to your family but like, if they're not a medical person, you really you want to your colleagues get you, they get what you just told them And you know you can go home and I would go home and tell my husband who, like, works in telecommunications, and he doesn't get it, like he's sympathetic but they don't get it.
Jordan Abney:Exactly Yeah.
Patrice D'Amato:Yeah, i think having and with this, in this day and age of tele, you know, being able to talk on zoom and stuff, being able to talk to people, your peers, and talk it through, because you know you're going to have days where you know I mean you're, you feel just trashed, you made a mistake, you missed something or you know the whole medical error thing And again being able to forgive yourself for the things that you're. You're trying your best. You know you did great with eight patients and two one went like south, the other one died, like it does. It's all part of what we do And you have to, you know, hang on to the fact that you took care of eight patients really well.
Jordan Abney:Wow, that's a very enlightened way to actually view it, which is that's exactly what you need to have. You need to have your brain in the right spot so that you can handle everything.
Patrice D'Amato:So it's those little things that get you through And knowing that you were put in that situation for a reason And if you fucked up, it is what it is And it was probably part of a larger plan for a patient. I'm going to just say that I have seen it. It's like all right, well, they need to go and you're here to help them and you didn't want to, and it's painful for you and you need to work through that, but in the end, maybe it was part of something that you're just there as a presence and they're lucky that they had. They're lucky they had you.
Jordan Abney:I hope everybody is listening to that, because that was actually very great, because you can only do the best that you can do, and that's all that is needed in the world. Everything will change after that, but yeah.
Patrice D'Amato:And if you learn from the things and the pain that you've been through as a provider, you're going to just get better and better and better.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, yeah, man, that's awesome. What comes next? You wrote a book. You're currently doing telehealth.
Patrice D'Amato:I don't know, i do not know I do a lot of things, i actually sing right now for hospice patients. So I'm part of a group where we go around and we sing for the dying, so I've been actively involved in that. I may do more work in hospice. I love end of life stuff. I love it. So we'll see.
Jordan Abney:Well, i'm excited to see and I'm definitely going to have to finish the book Everybody go check out the view from the clinic one nurses journey and abortion care. I found it on audible plus but then I didn't have a credit, so I was like I'll wait. And then I got a credit yesterday and I was like I don't have enough time to make it through this thing.
Patrice D'Amato:I narrated it. That's the other thing. I narrated my own book.
Jordan Abney:Okay, yeah, you've got a great voice for that too, so that's perfect.
Patrice D'Amato:Yes, i knew I could narrate it and they said, with memoirs it's always better when the person who wrote it narrated it. So it took me 11 hours. So please go get the audible and listen you can do while you're jogging, you can do it.
Jordan Abney:Yeah, if you can deal. If you've been around for this long you can definitely deal. Go check it out. I guess you can definitely find it on audible. Is it at Barnes and Nobles and all the other?
Patrice D'Amato:It's at Barnes and Noble. It's at Amazon The audible book. I have a Kindle. I did it all Like I did it. This is my gift to humanity. I self published this with my own money because I so believed that I didn't want to wait for a publisher and beg somebody. I knew it was good and I knew it was important. So, yes, i used my own money. I figured my 401K is crap anyway. So this is my gift to the world and it's a message of comfort, it's a message of hope and it's tough stuff too.
Jordan Abney:So thank you so much. Yeah, of course. Yes, thank you for coming on. It's been great. Everybody go check out the book, the view from the clinic, one nurses journey in abortion care. Yes, patrice, has been excellent. You've actually given a lot of enlightening things, so I hope anybody's name is. I'm sure they enjoyed it thoroughly, so I want to thank you.
Patrice D'Amato:Oh, i'm so glad, and best of luck to you and to anybody else who's listening You guys are our future and I'm just so excited about it. You're just you're awesome people and you're going to do good things. Bye.