Medical School Chronicles: From Studying to Practicing ft. Dr. Trishna Kumar

Remember that moment when you first stepped foot onto the campus of medical school? The flurry of emotions ranging from excitement to fear was overwhelming. Join me and my good friend, Dr. Trishna Kumar as we transport you back to our experiences at the St. George's in Grenada, where our medical journey commenced. This heartfelt episode, filled with our struggles and triumphs, gives you a glimpse into our voyage from being medical students to becoming doctors. 

Trishna, who recently began her psychiatry residency in New York City, candidly shares the challenges she faced during her medical school journey. From dealing with the pressure of applying to medical schools and residency programs to the tough task of transitioning to a new city, she’s seen and done it all. As we reminisce about our college dorm life and the chaotic yet thrilling life at St. George's, we delve into the importance of a robust support system. We also discuss the unexpected shift to online medical schooling due to the pandemic and its effect on our studies and mental health.

The episode concludes with Trishna and I sharing our experiences and offering tips on preparing for residency interviews. We dive into the complexity of crafting a compelling resume and finding the right fit for a residency program. Plus, we touch on the unique challenges of residency training, the cost of living in New York City, and why she chose psychiatry as her specialty. This episode is not just about our journey through medical school, but also about the importance of acknowledging achievements, prioritizing mental health, and the power of resilience. Join us and let’s walk down memory lane together.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:06

Hello everybody and welcome to the Off Wyco podcast. I'm your host, jordan Amney, and today I've got a good friend of mine coming to join us. She went to SU with me. Her name is Trisha Kumar. She's about to start her residency, so let's get in it. Trish glad to have you.

Speaker 2: 1:25

I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:27

Yeah Well, for anybody that doesn't know, this is my good friend Trish. She has been with me essentially the whole time, through medical school so, and she just matched into new residency. So why don't you tell everybody, I guess, where and what specialty you're?

Speaker 2: 1:45

matching yeah, so I matched in psychiatry in New York City, in the Bronx, and I'm going to be seeing a lot of fun stuff. A lot of learning. It's a learning experience. That's the genus way people have been saying it.

Speaker 1: 1:59

So are you ready for your first day?

Speaker 2: 2:02

Yeah, a little bit. I'm kind of like in the midst of orientation right now. We did all that generic onboarding stuff the first week and now we're doing more department specific stuff, and the first day of real doctor work is next Monday.

Speaker 1: 2:14

So I know you're going to do good. I don't even have to cross my fingers for it.

Speaker 2: 2:19

But likewise, likewise.

Speaker 1: 2:21

It's going to be. It's just going to be fun. The orientation process is God awful. I'm doing the exact same thing. I almost fell asleep, like three times in the meeting.

Speaker 2: 2:32

Is yours like in an auditorium where you have like the worst lighting ever and the worst possible setup for your neck and you're just sitting there for like 10 hours.

Speaker 1: 2:40

Yep, and but luckily they gave us coffee and stuff. So I was like on my second cup of coffee which I should never be allowed to have two cups of coffee ever and so I was just bouncing around like laughing at everything. But yeah, it was good the guy he liked to. He threw in some Marvel references. He was like you're going to start off his. He kept calling the Falcon the black Falcon or whatever, so that that might be a little Mississippi thing. But no, he kept saying like yeah, you're going to start off as just Sam and then you're going to work your way up to Captain America. I was like whoever's never seen any of the Marvel movies and be so lost. But he had all these photos and it was. He was. Yeah, it was kind of hilarious. The guy was super nice. But it also was funny that they were just incorporating all the Disney movies into our orientation.

Speaker 2: 3:33

They have a lot of good lessons in life. It's inspirational for orientation.

Speaker 1: 3:36

Yeah, yeah, I was, I was motivated, that's good.

Speaker 2: 3:40

And you're also going to be in emergency medicine, which is pretty much akin to being a superhero.

Speaker 1: 3:44

So I would like to think so, but no, I'm just kidding. No, no, no, I was definitely seeing a lot of people that think they are superheroes. That's for sure. You probably will too.

Speaker 2: 3:53

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1: 3:57

Yeah. So for New York, did you have to? Did you have to move to like a different apartment? Or are you because I know you were doing rotations up there, but have you like, officially had to move to where you're going to be this whole time?

Speaker 2: 4:10

Yeah, actually. Well, I guess a little bit about my journey. As a medical student. I did all of my clinical rotations in Elmhurst, at Elmhurst Hospital and Queens Hospital, which is in the borough of Queens. So I did have to move because if anybody knows New York, even if it says five miles, it doesn't mean anything. It could be five hours of traffic. So I moved to closer to the Bronx on the Westchester County side. So I'm officially in that apartment now getting ready to start.

Speaker 1: 4:38

I love the beautiful artwork in the background.

Speaker 2: 4:41

Oh yeah, this is actually in terms of, like, self care and mental health, which I should be practicing since I'm preaching it. This is my favorite thing, like it's those paint and sip classes where you can just like do whatever, or any of an instructor telling you what to do, and it's like a fun evening.

Speaker 1: 4:58

I'm trying to build a collection now, oh wow, so what you painted those.

Speaker 2: 5:02

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:02

I want the paint and sip.

Speaker 2: 5:03

It's like a cute little date night thing, also for anybody who is looking for date night ideas. I like absolutely love this concept. And it's like it's fun because it's a person who's instructing you, but like you're not thinking about it, like you're just like painting, and it's very relaxing.

Speaker 1: 5:19

Man, I need to do one of those. I've done a paint and sip once, but it was not by the end of it. It was not worthy enough to hang up.

Speaker 2: 5:28

I doubt, I doubt you're, I'm sure you're better.

Speaker 1: 5:31

They wouldn't even put it on the fridge. They were like Jesus, you got to do better, that's the really good, very artistic. But yeah, since you have mentioned your medical journey, I knew you at in St George's in Grenada, so we first met in in Grenada. But give us a rundown of kind of what led you to Grenada to begin with and what led you to become a fancy pants doctor.

Speaker 2: 5:58

Well, okay, so like you said, we met in term one but before I started medical school, I'm a Jersey girl, born and bred. I went to Rutgers and everything and I didn't get into medical school the first time I applied. So I did my masters, tried to like, amp up and beef up my CV and resume by doing a masters and like biomedical stuff that was more concentrated in pharmacology. And then I took the plunge for St George's because I didn't get off the wait list. I mean full candor here. Like for a lot of us, it's our, our helping hand to success. It doesn't necessarily mean it was our primary choice, but it's what gave us our dreams. So I took the plunge, took the plane to Grenada and had a little bit of a lengthy stay in my medical school career because, you know, covid threw us around a little bit and then we had a few board exams to take. And then here we are.

Speaker 1: 6:49

Yeah, the I mean is obviously a lot of people that are coming from the IMG route. It might not have been like maybe your first bet, but honestly, the people that I met down at St George's I wouldn't change it for the world because it definitely switched my whole mindset and everything and made me way more prepared for what I am doing now.

Speaker 2: 7:14

Absolutely. I do notice that too and I don't know if you share this experience. After going to our school and like doing rotations and stuff, like they really do, they really did prepare us, like I know they were telling us that the whole time, but then I got to the hospital and I was like, oh okay, I know things. This is kind of cool and it really helped to be honest, so it worked.

Speaker 1: 7:34

Yeah, the communication could have been a little better between the students and the, the heads up of the program or the FSU, but besides that, no, I have another plane, so I love the island and so that whole experience was amazing. And I actually I realized and now that I've gone through this whole application process with medical school or like the residency application process that I was just a really bad at doing my like applications. I was god awful at like going from college and even, like, I think, from high school to college. That application I must have just been like take me if you want me, who cares? And I literally wrote the scores down, didn't put anything else. And then even when I went to medical school like I don't think I put anything now, like I don't think I fluffed it up near as much as like when I was doing for this residency application I was putting all kinds of stuff I mean I started a podcast just to sound- a little bit more official in the interview.

Speaker 1: 8:43

Yeah, I was doing all kinds of things signing up for these organizations so I could put them on the list, and I just realized I was like, oh my god. Like when I looked at the two different applications I was like I could have done, I guess, like no wonder.

Speaker 2: 8:59

But it all worked out right Like.

Speaker 1: 9:01

I think it worked out for the best that I was that bad.

Speaker 2: 9:05

It is a daunting application that like there's so many sections and there's so many little things about it that, like you have to find out on your own.

Speaker 1: 9:13

And you have to like write every little bit, like there's those little paragraphs each time. It's like tell us what community health means to you and tell us what all this stuff means. I was like I don't know.

Speaker 2: 9:28

I like this issue where it really stressed me out, where, when you were doing like the CV section or the resume, any of the sections really, where the characters were like 250 characters or less, I'm like that's two sentences, what do you want me to say is going to make me sound really good in two sentences, like that's so difficult. I don't know. That was my biggest problem, I felt. Or maybe just a little bit much, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 9:51

No, I either could not figure out like I couldn't even figure out the first way to begin a sentence, or I was going well over it.

Speaker 2: 10:00

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 10:01

And I wasn't getting anybody to read over it, I was just like, okay, like it's perfectly fine, and then I realized I have terrible grammar, like I knew that to begin with, but so no one told us that was part of the deal of becoming a doctor, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:17

So I will say that if anybody's trying to get into medical school, like sometimes or and don't get yourself discouraged, because I look back and just realized that I wasn't doing specifically what they wanted to see, like then, after I was in it and I saw how medical students like how the thought process goes, I was able to craft a better resume. But before you just have no idea, you're like okay, like I'm a college student.

Speaker 2: 10:45

Literally, you're just like oh okay, like this is what I'm doing now. Like I didn't, like you said, I didn't like put as much thought process until a lot of what I was doing when I was like an undergraduate student or anything, and then it was like, oh okay, like I guess this is the purpose of everything behind. Like this is why they made us do these essays, this is why we had to take all these classes. Like then it's sense, I guess that's a total head again.

Speaker 1: 11:09

That's a whole nother rant. So I mean, we met. We were just talking about it a minute ago. We met so early that I don't even think I remember. It was like we were been friends ever since day one. I've always been able to call on you. So when you first got to the island though because I know it was a little bit of an adjustment for me I got there, had no idea where I was going and there's no Wi-Fi at where. When I first got there, there was no anything. So was it easy adopting to the new island life and the whole new medical school?

Speaker 2: 11:44

I mean it's really easy like now, like four years later, you know, like the SpongeBob meme to say like yeah, it was like so, it was so easy like 2020 hindsight, whatever you know but it was hard, like I feel like maybe we didn't none of us talked about that enough, like because we were just like go, go, go all the time. There was always an exam, there was always a small group that we had to attend at like the ripe hour of like 7am or something. There was always something going on. That like I feel like none of us really sat down and talked about how much we were doing and like how we got thrown into it so quickly. So for me, in that beginning period of time, I would say it was a little bit difficult.

Speaker 2: 12:21

I think I relied on like talking to my family a lot and the people I was meeting, like people like yourself and other other friends that we had at school, because we were each other support system, Like we literally lived on an island and it was just us. So I'm going through what we were going through, so we had to rely on each other. There was a learning curve involved, for sure, in terms of the schedule, the weather, the everything the adjustment of even like grocery shopping at IGA, like everything sort of had to coalesce but there was a period of time where none of it made sense and I would say that having each other throughout all of that and then just like trusting the process helped and having a support system. So I feel like a lot of that I couldn't have done by myself.

Speaker 1: 13:03

Yeah, the support system. Like I found that, letting it come as it goes, like you're just rolling with the punches and finding yourself a good support system for all of that, which meant, like me, it meant just going out and making new friends and stuff like that, Because all of us were vulnerable. But I know a lot of people like I know there was a learning curve to figuring out how to study, but I felt like most of the issue was sometimes like finding a group to study with, finding people to the right people to be around and to get your mind right for whenever the hard parts came Because I feel like that old analogy about like how med school is like a whole like fire hose sort of level of experience.

Speaker 2: 13:51

But I think I mean now looking back on it like if I'm being retrospective at all, like it's exactly what you're saying, like if I was given all the material that I had to study in medical school at a different pace and that was like the only thing I had to be concerned about.

Speaker 2: 14:04

I feel like it could be something that was a lot more manageable than it was. But here you are, especially for us being thrown into a completely brand new country Forget about like brand new town or something like that. For all of us US citizens that were there and people from different countries too we had a lot of international friends also it's like you're learning to adjust to live to a new place. You're learning to adjust to like even sleeping in a new place, like you've never slept before and you know, getting rid of some of that social anxiety and being like hey, can I study with you? And not feeling awkward, like there's so much that goes into it that allows you to be that steady pace like medical student that we forgot. Like we forgot that we went through all of that.

Speaker 2: 14:40

Yeah just make it happen a little bit, but it was hard in the beginning, like it wasn't easy, and I feel like those are the things that like helped us be able to handle a lot of other things that might have come later, like clinical rotations, again moving to a new city, learning a new role, while you have to study and do like things in the hospital, take shelf exams, like all these things like I think that our experience in Grenada, with all the other things that were thrown on top of the educational part of it, really prepared me for that too. I mean. Granted, like you said, there's some communicative issues that I could think. I think could be fixed a little bit with our SG administration, but everything else, I feel like it really helped me stay calm in crisis.

Speaker 1: 15:23

That's the best way to explain it, because I mean, like you said at the very beginning, it's just chaos everywhere. I remember I got to my it was the brand new dorms. They were like eww, harry, gary the best dorm.

Speaker 1: 15:37

And then I got there, there was no water at all the whole dorm, Except for one hallway which, luckily, I had met the people on the plane. They had some water and I remember I went to sleep and they had these little blinds. I don't even know if they had blinds at first, but I've never seen a room more bright at 6am in the morning than that first night. I was like, oh my goodness so. But you know, you get some blackout curtains, you make the most of it?

Speaker 1: 16:06

Yeah, because my room like looked to where the sun was like when it rose in the morning it went straight into my window so.

Speaker 2: 16:16

I had the. I had the view of like campus or whatever. And then halfway into term one I don't know if you remember, but that's when they decided to make like Olympic style volleyball courts, which I appreciated. I did like to play volleyball but they had like stadium lighting for why? So, like you couldn't sleep until like a certain hour because it was like super bright fluorescent lights on that side of Eric Gary.

Speaker 1: 16:40

Yeah, yeah it was, it was ridiculous too. Like all the time, yeah, I do remember that I was like, thank God I'm not on that end. And then morning would come and I would be like, oh, my God, Always greener.

Speaker 2: 16:52

right Grass is always green.

Speaker 1: 16:54

Yeah. And so I will say like, yeah, it was a little chaotic, but it really did prepare. You know, that whole IMG lifestyle and I know a lot of other people go to different islands and different and probably different schools and even the states or whatever. But the fact that we had to adapt in that way it really made it made you just have a higher threshold for what you what freaks you out. And then you said you move on to rotations and everything, and I remember some people would freak out about you know just, they had a bad Airbnb and they couldn't get it all figured out and the guy wouldn't let them, you know, eat in the Airbnb and they were losing their mind. I was like, oh, dude, like that's gonna be all right, yeah, it's gonna be okay, dude.

Speaker 1: 17:45

Just yeah, you're just gonna have to go. You're gonna have to get the hospital every day, don't worry about it.

Speaker 2: 17:49

Clearly Like if you can eat it some way.

Speaker 1: 17:52

I literally told him. So that was so funny that you said that, because I said I was like oh, sounds like you're gonna be in subway every day, buddy.

Speaker 2: 17:59

You could do that there, like you got this.

Speaker 1: 18:02

You got this.

Speaker 2: 18:03

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1: 18:04

But yeah, now we actually had a very interesting experience together where we found out we were getting kicked off the island at the same time, Like I was in. I was like we're eating pizza, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:16

Literally in my apartment, like me and our other friend of all, like we had gone to get pizza. That new place. There was like some new place to have like better pizza or whatever. We tried it.

Speaker 1: 18:26

We never get to try it again.

Speaker 2: 18:27

It was the first day that I ran into pizza, which is so funny. And do you remember we got like three different emails. First it was like oh, like, class is no longer mandatory and everybody was like overjoyed. Yeah, it was that one. You don't like hear it anywhere on campus, like the 80% rule, it's gone. That's crazy. Then it was like JK, you guys need to leave and you need to leave, like tomorrow, oh my God.

Speaker 1: 18:49

And then there, was widespread panic, you could tell. And yeah, I remember because I'm always terrible at checking my emails and everything and I remember I'm glad I was at. I always say that I'm just like glad I have good friends or whatever, because I was at y'all's place and then I think it was Naval or maybe it was you, I don't remember, but somebody gets it. And then they they're like freaking out, they're like oh no, you know, because I was right after Trump had given that speech or whatever about how he's closing the borders. And then they like there was just a mass amount of emails by the time I checked it.

Speaker 2: 19:23

Yeah, there were like 10 or something. We also didn't think it was like real life, yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:28

I was like please, no way. I was like it looks like we're going out tonight.

Speaker 2: 19:35

I can't believe we like packed up our whole lives in like 48 hours, so like that's sort of insane.

Speaker 1: 19:39

Yeah, I left. Like so many things, I still RIP to my Nutribullet. I was really upset about that. Had to leave. It Couldn't fit in the suitcase.

Speaker 2: 19:50

I was like oh well, at any given moment we were only allowed like two suitcases to our name to even get to Grenada. So it's like what were you? And by the time we got sent home we were like fairly into our medical school career. So I had like accumulated a lot of stuff by the time we were sent home. Or, yeah, told to like pack up and everything, and I was. I ended up leaving a lot of stuff behind. I didn't know how to donate it.

Speaker 1: 20:14

I've left it. I remember I had dried out all these seashells that I was going to send back, like these big conch shells that we had found around the house. What an idiot that those are all still probably sitting wherever I left them.

Speaker 2: 20:30

They're probably like in the house in the decoration that's like yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:34

I mean, yeah, they're probably are. I was like, oh yeah, each everybody will love these. They never made it off the island.

Speaker 2: 20:42

That would have been like a suitcase by itself, and then none of your stuff would have come home.

Speaker 1: 20:45

So yeah, I was like not going to happen. But yeah, so we made it. We made it off, we had to do the whole online medical school thing. And then how do you think? I am curious to know, because it was a little weird for me doing the online stuff. It wasn't bad, but I felt like it. Actually I felt like I studied better and would have been better prepared for step one if I hadn't had to go through all the moving, all that. And then now there's a weird schedule imbalance and then all of a sudden, now you have to take step one.

Speaker 2: 21:23

Yeah, no, I agree with that. Honestly, I feel like you know, we were just saying, like you got through like this difficult transition period of like being on the island when we were in term one, but we were so used to our schedules Like humans are creatures of habit we are like and at this point we were in term five or two right like we were about to be done with the basic sciences curriculum, and then it's like everything changes. They change the interface, they change the style of teaching, like it was like, oh my god, I don't know I'm going to do this and, like you said, it's like gearing up for step one. So it's like all this cumulative information, like up until like where we were, but since, like the first day of med school, that's like a lot of material as well, like a small module or something. So I found it really difficult. It even delayed my process a little bit, because that whole transition period and the test anxiety behind standardized exam, which is something that I've always struggled with like pushed me to have a second attempt in my step one process or journey. And, you know, looking back on it, I like, I guess because, as medical students were taught to be resilient, like as physicians now we're taught to be resilient like we we do so much and we don't like reflect enough.

Speaker 2: 22:34

I feel like about what we went through, like especially like we literally just talked about the fact that like the world ended and we got sent home in 48 hours and then we just started studying like the day after that you know what I mean like we didn't processing time and I think, going back, I didn't give myself enough credit for going through all of those things and like processing that, processing my test anxiety to sit for the exam and then I was like, oh wait, like I went through all this, like that acknowledgement alone made me feel like I was using like years of tension off of my body and mind and everything, so it really helped. And then sitting down again at this point now I'm getting used to like zoom life and zoom university, so I'm used to studying at home, used to being at my parents house, whereas I was like at mod for most of my medical career at this point, and that second time around, when I took the exam and it was successful, I like I realized that all the things that we went through in the first part of 2020 that influenced it and like it taught me a lot about myself. So I guess, like, yeah, it was like a shitty transition, for sure, but looking back on it, I learned so much about myself in that time period. Like I knew what made me like learn things better. I knew what things made me more anxious about taking an exam, you know, and it made me face those things in ways that I probably wouldn't have faced if I wasn't given, like, a failed attempt the first time or something right.

Speaker 2: 24:00

So that second attempt, like it, forces you to like learn things about yourself and it also forces you to realize that you are a human being, which is something that we don't get taught very often in our line of work. Like you are a person, you're a human being. It's okay to like make mistakes sometimes, it's okay to like not be 110% at any given moment and it's okay to think something like an eight hour exam that's quote unquote determining your future is scary. Like it's okay to admit that it's a scary test. It's okay to admit that you can get through it, and it's not the only thing that's going on your application. That was long when it responds to what you were saying, but my point of even saying that's because I know there's so many people who struggle with test anxiety, struggle with standardized exams because they're not the same as other tests you take in school. They're also ridiculously long. There's someone's entire workday is as long as the exam.

Speaker 1: 24:50

Yes, it is, and those carry on. What were you going to say? I so I'm. I definitely have like testing anxiety, especially when it comes to long tests. Like I am one of those few people not really a few, but the proud and where I cannot sit, still I. And when there is tests like that, I could.

Speaker 1: 25:16

An eight hour standardized test is essentially set up to be the exact opposite of the way that I usually think or or will do things in general, and so I get this weird, like I know that I won't be performing as well as I should be, and then I get all revved up one way or another and it sometimes even then I'll just like overthink things because I know that I'm not very good with tests. And so to do all of that, to have and then to have like other life, like other life things going on in the background, you've got me, like you said, the world ended. We've got all this COVID hysteria essentially it was literally hysteria people were watching the news, scared if everybody in their family is going to die, and then they were like by the way, you've got a timeline. You need to get to the most intense studying you've ever done in your life.

Speaker 2: 26:13

At that point exactly. I know that you can relate to this too, because you have a parent who's a physician as well.

Speaker 2: 26:19

you have a parent who was, like probably, like literally on the front lines of a lot of what was happening at that time period, and my dad as well, and I was like I had adding anxiety from that because, like this was pre vaccine and everything and I'm like I'm stressed out about studying, I want to pass your five, want to pass step one, all this stuff and my dad's going to work every day and there's no vaccine, like I don't want him to get COVID, like there's so much going. That's a very serious worry on its own, like what a time.

Speaker 1: 26:46

Yeah, what a time. And then you've got, did you went home, right, I guess? Yeah, you're now you've been living by yourself where you have this whole thing. I promise you, maybe your family's a little different. It is 50 to 100 times easier to study when I'm in a different household than the rest of my family, and that's like no under over exaggeration, like it. They they're first off, there's a ton of us, so there's always something going on, but there's just there's so much go, yeah, there's so much going on and there's little kids running around constantly and it.

Speaker 1: 27:23

I used to like have to go to this, like luckily, one of my grandparents had like a cabin in the middle of nowhere and I would go by myself to this cabin for like weeks on in. Yeah, but that that was the only way I got like a moment, because I don't think I could have done it Without that. And then you've, so you've got, yeah, you've got all this stuff going on in the background of like hysteria, and then you're like finally back with your family. You're trying to like they're trying to understand what it is to study all the time, like my mom understands it, but nobody else does like she's like, oh, you should be so like my mom will just be like. You should be studying. You should be studying like she's the subtle.

Speaker 1: 28:08

Yeah, yeah, the oh. You decided to go for a walk today. Dude, what are you thinking, man? She's, she's better than that, but just so you have all the stress, and stress alone makes you, hurts your chances at success or whatever like, especially when it comes to like critical thinking for those tests. So, yeah, I mean you went through a lot and we never take time to acknowledge like our successes until, like, I never really acknowledged my success at step like completing all that, until after I match, and then I was like, oh God, it didn't hurt, thank God.

Speaker 2: 28:45

Yeah, exactly, I don't think I had this moment very often before. Like you said before, matching like when and match Monday and Friday happen and then, like when we were at graduation and we we have to sit right next to each other at graduation, at like that moment, when they said the thing that they were saying, that all we achieved, I was like, oh wait a minute, we did that, we literally did that, and you don't think about it because we're go, go, going. You know, there's always something and that's like my other thing about really prioritizing your mental health and this whole process, which is something that I really hope to continue to do through residency, which I think you know it might be not the easiest sometimes, but it's something we should try. Our level best to change the narrative about is that, you know, we we shouldn't get so locked into like this idea of destination happiness, which I think is something that is really possible in a sector like medicine where, like you have to go to school first, you have to train as a doctor then, and then after that, like there's so many levels or rungs of a ladder that you need to get through to like be done, quote, unquote, and we can get into this dangerous thing where we're like oh you know, I'll be happy when I'm at all, be happy when I'm done with the first year of residency, all be happy when, like residency is over.

Speaker 2: 29:57

It's like we have to remember all the things we've achieved up until this moment and then also remember like to enjoy the process of what's happening. Like it's, if you keep thinking that tomorrow is going to be the day, then like you're never going to enjoy what's happening and you're also going to be thinking in a thought process. That's like not allowing you to be physically and mentally present Like we should. That's like part of like acknowledging like it's okay to acknowledge the fact that you passed a shelf exam, like that's a feat in itself. You know, like it doesn't have to be the big grand things, it doesn't have to be like the final ending of everything, to be only like the final ending of those days and I think I made that realization after I matched, ironically, you know. So now I want to make sure that other people understand that they've achieved a lot by already being wherever they are in the process.

Speaker 1: 30:48

That's beautiful, because that I literally had that same experience where I didn't, and I think maybe now that step one is pass or fail, it's a little bit, it can be a little smoother because it's for one thing. It's like they used to say, like the reason my understanding of why they made step one pass or fail was because they kept telling people to not like to stop considering step one as such an important score, like they kept telling programs and that did absolutely nothing and it still was the number one reason that they that programs matched for people matched for step one. And so that puts a lot of pressure on you, not only like essentially from day one, because that's all of your first medical school stuff is step one, and then all of the clinical rotations and everything that's step two, and so you're just in this whirlwind of like, oh my God, every score counts, every, and so I think it gives you a little bit more freedom to just be like okay, I just have to pass, you know only once more.

Speaker 2: 31:55

I think that's a little bit different what you said, even though not only so. Now, all the I, my fear in that is that a lot of that I don't know pressure is going to get shifted to step two, and I really hope that that's not the case. And I think what happened with me, with my repeated experience in everything, is just a testament of the fact that there's so many programs out there and there's also so many attributes on your own, like CV or E-RES application, that speak to who you are. That has absolutely nothing to do with step one. You know, like the sheer reality of it, based on what you were saying, even if you tell people to not look at the three digits, for they're going to look at it, they're going to have to get rid of it for step one. But there were filters created for those reasons, right, like you know, even match a resident has that tool where they're like, oh, step one first time, pass or preferred or whatever. These filters exist because they're using numeric statistics to rule people out, right? So it's also even scarier to think, oh, I'm not going to make it pass. That filter, which is like another dangerous path to put yourself on. There are.

Speaker 2: 32:55

There are so many programs out there for everybody, I feel, and I feel like all it really takes is for someone to see your application and just resonate with it, which is far more possible than people think it is, in my personal opinion and I'm not just saying that because you know, match day was successful for both you and I but I think that's how human beings behave, right Like there's something that catches someone's attention in an application and it might not have absolutely anything to do with the numeric values or numeric scores that are on that person's application. It might be something that they wrote in the personal statement. It might be like an experience they had on their you know CV, or like experiences section or whatever. It might be something that they said about their family or whatever, and that's all it takes for someone to open your folder, quite literally in a conference room, and be like let's talk about this person. And we forget that, that the people that are looking at us are also human beings.

Speaker 2: 33:46

So there are a lot of doctors out there that might be of that old school of thought where, like, they have to have the top 99% title, everything but for every doctor. That's like that I'd like to believe that there's another one that's like wait, wait, hold on, let's just make sure that they're not all numbers. So I think that there's also a general shift, especially when, you know, people from our generation start to be in the hospital, start to maybe be more administrative or leadership or have leadership roles in the hospital too. Some of those thought processes might get shifted out with the new ones and I'm holding on to that and I hope that everybody has more like less of a pressurized experience to become physicians because of that.

Speaker 1: 34:25

So I think so. I think that there's a lot of, there was a lot of like this is just how you do things all up until really just recently, and then people have started to realize that you can get more out of like the applicants instead of and maybe it's because you have these online ones where they can talk to more now or whatever but it definitely feels like there is kind of a shift to where they're looking more at the whole person. I'm sure they did it before, but there was a lot more Like you weren't allowed to be. You had to be very serious according to like other older people that have gone through everything and your scores meant a lot and everything. Now I found that, like some of the smaller things that I put in my application were like I'm sure you had to bring up like they brought up like why do you had to do step one over again. Like I'm sure you had to explain yourself, but I also had to. If you know, when you write like your hobbies or like your interest, I put I put like some goofy things.

Speaker 1: 35:33

So this is actually from St George is like right, I never had cooked really this before, like whenever I got there one of my first weeks me, jesus, kunal, we made salsa and we brought it to these, like this little party or whatever we made, and I, for the first time in my life, I watched, you know, and we've got a Hispanic and Indian guy making, and so I got to see like all the like how to do it and how to spice it up and stuff like that. And so then I just made it over and over and over again until I got really, really good at making it and then, like I was just known that I would make salsa for anything, and then I just loved it because you get cheap tomatoes. You get you get a ton of tomatoes for like you could get a whole bag of tomatoes for 20 AC, which is like the equivalent of $7.

Speaker 2: 36:24

That's nothing.

Speaker 1: 36:25

Yeah, nothing, it was nothing. So I would just buy a ton of tomatoes and I don't eat tomatoes unless it's in salsa. So I almost always made it. And so when I did my application, I put and I had just done, I went to Columbia right before it was like this time last year and I had done a salsa class and you know we had gone to salsa nights or whatever in Grenada, but I'm not good at that at all.

Speaker 1: 36:52

But so I put like salsa connoisseur, mainly the dish but also the dance or something like that. And I was just you know, I was speaking to an honest, like an honest attribute or whatever that I'm the guy that just makes salsa for everything, because I just love salsa. And I had so many people bring that up, though, like they were like I want to know what this means and I hope to God you have good salsa. And I was like I think I can hang, you know, and so it's like that kind of stuff I care more. I see a number and I'm like, okay, the guy is smart enough to pass, and then I care about all the other stuff. What is going to be interesting about that person?

Speaker 2: 37:42

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 37:44

And how they're going to fit in the residency. Just saying you're a team player is one thing, but if you've got all these, I don't know. I think everybody just says working out, which I'm sure that's essentially what I would have said, but then I would realize that everybody was going to say that. So you just got to pick the quirkiness.

Speaker 2: 38:11

Yeah, you have to keep yourself yourself, which is like we have this idea that we have to be like this, very like prim, proper version of ourselves on ERAS. But I like all the things that I put in my hobby section was probably the most thing I got like quoted from like in an interview. It wasn't even like. It literally wasn't even like. Oh, like, say, you had a publication, this that are the other like it wasn't like academic stuff. It was always stuff that I wrote either in my personal statement or in the hobby section because they wanted to get to know like what kind of a person I was.

Speaker 2: 38:39

Because at that point I think, like in the interview stage, like exactly going off of what you were saying, like they reviewed all the academic stuff about you at this point, like they already know you made it through some of those like technical, you know filters or whatever it is at that moment, like they're giving you this opportunity because like it's a two way street, they want to get to know you for this training job and they want you to get to know them about this training job and see if it like lines up essentially and I, although it was like a little bit, I don't know if you felt this way, like with zoom interviews, it was definitely like a little bit more.

Speaker 2: 39:11

It's a little more difficult to sense a vibe, like vibes are still, I think, for me through a screen. In my personal opinion, that's how I felt about my program, but it is obviously a little bit easier in real life or in person or whatever. But that was like what I think I really liked about my program the most was that they wanted to know so many things about me because I felt like they were really trying to invest in a person that would fit into like a close knit family. So we're very small program and you know now in real life, now that we're at orientation and I'm meeting everybody not on zoom, like it did make sense, like why they were asking me all these things because they wanted to make sure that we were going to be a happy family.

Speaker 1: 39:52

Yeah, and I mean, that's the only way to build like a successful group, and so it's like a you can just you can tell that they're being honest and not just throwing out, and you know when they're asking you. All that did you put, that you're a painter.

Speaker 2: 40:09

I actually did, because this is something I started doing, I would say like in fourth year because I had time and I wasn't able to do it then. But what I did put on and I'm sure you remember is that and I know a lot of people probably would put this but the way I put my dance section on my US application, I was like, yeah, I'm a dancer and I'll probably teach you, even if you don't want to be taught how to dance or something like that, because you know, I used to teach Lumba and I'm a trained dancer and stuff. So that was something they would always ask me really. So when are you going to do a zoom, a class for the program? So that was like a question I got from a couple programs actually. And then the other one was what up with the other thing?

Speaker 2: 40:49

I always like read. I like to read a lot. So they put you on the spot for that. So if you just like decide that you want to write all these things that make you sound really cool, they're going to ask you what book you're reading. You can have you talk about the book too. You can't like spark. Note that.

Speaker 1: 41:06

That's why you have to just put what's honest about you and I think first off you want to find a program that is going to like if you put a bunch of stuff that's not you, then they're going to think you're somebody different and you make it put in a program that there's already a Zumba instructor and then you're like, geez and I'm the one, but no, were you going to be putting a?

Speaker 2: 41:26

program when, joey, have you watched friends, the like show, right? So there's an episode, and if you remember, where Joey like live on his resume and then he's like asked to do all the skills on his resume and I like had that scene burning in my mind, like when I was sitting through this one, like, oh my god, they're going to ask me to do something and if I can't perform it's going to be a hot mess. So just remember that, don't be Joey.

Speaker 1: 41:48

Doesn't he say he can speak Italian, or something like that? Isn't that that one? Or maybe that's a different?

Speaker 2: 41:53

I think he's like a salsa dancer or something crazy too, I'm pretty sure, and he has absolutely no idea how to do it. So the message is don't be Joey.

Speaker 1: 42:03

Yeah, and you, I think also, if you are going through the same process and you're thinking of, like what skills do I have? That can be applicable to that. Like think about things too that aren't just I mean you can say you're a reader or things like that, that, especially if that's your passion. But also I think you did a great one by saying I'm a dancer and I'll teach you, even if you don't like something. That includes like the group, so that that they also. Or like if you're saying I'm a painter and you can have the paintings in the background like something that they can ask you about.

Speaker 2: 42:40

Right yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:42

People say they play guitar, then they'll stick the guitar in the background, but they will ask you to play the guitar.

Speaker 2: 42:47

Oh my god, did that happen?

Speaker 1: 42:48

I know somebody that did, and I know somebody that said they could play the guitar and they could not and they had to say that the strings were. They had to make up some excuse. And then the guy was like blah, blah. You know, like they're not going to put you on the spot, but if it's a talent or something that you like to do, like I put.

Speaker 1: 43:08

So I'm like a big history person, like I'll, I just like learning about ancient history and I used to tell like these essentially, when my little sister was time, forever her to go to bed, she would ask me like oh, tell me a story, because I'm 18 years older than my little sister. Oh my god. So, yeah, big age gap. But so she'd be like oh, tell me a story. Well, I'm not good at coming up with stories on the spot, like they're just, they come out ridiculous. So I just would tell her like Greek myths that I knew off the top of my head, and then she loved it and so then I would like go home and like research more, blah, blah, blah. So eventually I told her, like everything, we've gone through almost all the Greek myths.

Speaker 1: 43:50

She, whenever they got to that part in school, she was like oh wait, you're talking about Jordan. I thought you were telling me stories. And she's like I know who Zeus is. My brother tells me about that. But yeah, so when I wrote in my application I put like Greek mythology guru or some, I put something like that, like that was one of the individual things. And then I also, like you know, I said salsa and a couple of things that were group oriented, so like it kind of encompassed everything. And then I got asked about that a lot too, like people and I was not expected to ask. Like they were like what's your favorite Greek god or whatever, and I was like like I don't know, that?

Speaker 2: 44:29

did you actually have an answer? What was it?

Speaker 1: 44:31

I well, because I don't like saying the most obvious one. So I think I said Hermes because he was quick and he ran around everywhere.

Speaker 2: 44:37

I like it yeah and I.

Speaker 1: 44:39

But I didn't want to go into the fact that they have all these statues in Greece where it's just like the and that's it's crazy, where your mind goes in the middle of an interview, but they like at all the crossroads. They have just a picture of Hermes face and then a pair of genitalia and then the rest is just a slap and so like. I, for some reason that was all I was thinking of. I was like, yeah, like I like him, because you know he said every crossroads.

Speaker 2: 45:07

I mean, honestly, I definitely felt like there were moments in time when they would give presentations and stuff and I'm like, oh my god, I hope I don't look, like I'm not going to this kind of hard. Like it's really hard to like remain focused and like not think about, like you looking crazy because your camera's on yeah going on in that moment.

Speaker 2: 45:28

But what you're saying about the paintings thing I purpose in my old apartment in Queens, I purposely, I guess yeah, purposely, it's like the right word would sit in front of like this little alcove I had in my old apartment that, like I could put things on, there were little shelves and how I had decorated my apartment was like all my pictures with, like my family and like my friends and, like you know, important trips I had been on.

Speaker 2: 45:51

They just happened to be on that wall so I made like my camera was in front of it and I would like fit so that you know if they see it they're going to want to ask about it, so that like eats up so much conversation too. Because I feel like you're sitting there in your head being like, am I being conversational? Am I not being awkward? Am I being awkward? And then it's like you kind of like priming them with stuff to ask you about because they're just their eyes are going to go to whatever's behind your head too. So that helped me in my first couple interviews because it helped me like ease my, like mine's tension and also like got me, I guess, more practice, like more practice and speaking about myself, because they were all things pertaining to me in the background and that was cool. They would ask me about my pictures and stuff.

Speaker 1: 46:32

So yeah, and that's. I think you just have to do that. You have to set up some kind of visual cue and like what you're comfortable at talking about because you don't think about it and it's so funny Mary Bess always talks about it because it's really funny is like right around interview time. Anytime you ask a medical student anything, they just go into this ridiculously long drawn out. They're like why do I like pasta? Well, pasta to me has always been a very influential thing. My grandmother made it. Now I make it and you know the process of making and you she's like what I was just asking, what you want you know like. And then you realize that you have to do that in the interview but you're not prepped for it in your first couple no, I feel like I I honestly don't need.

Speaker 2: 47:20

I'm trying to think do you know what time period your the program you matched in was like? What part of interview season did you have that?

Speaker 1: 47:27

it was more in the beginning, but it was like number eight or something. I'm glad I got a couple under my belt it was.

Speaker 2: 47:34

It was not my, it was not my first where I matched, was not my first interview. It was early in the season, like you, but it wasn't my very first one.

Speaker 1: 47:43

I'm happy because I was, like, less nervous and you know and you have all these other questions that you figure out that you want to ask. I would say, if anybody has a tip to like, once you've gone through the interview, think about the questions that you missed or whatever, and write those down or questions that other people ask. I had a running list of smart questions that other people asked and then I would be like, oh okay, like that was a good thing.

Speaker 1: 48:11

Yeah, I didn't even ask about, is it, you know, on a block schedule, like is it a block schedule or monthly schedule?

Speaker 2: 48:20

yeah, I had like. Thank god I had a MacBook. I would like have my like stickies.

Speaker 2: 48:27

I did too, yeah you know, I really feel like after a while though that was like just like for my own, like comfort, because I don't I was too nervous really looking all around my screen in the beginning to that. I probably wasn't like looking at my notes in the background anyway, but I would write in like those meet the resident hours, meet angry or whatever and, like any information I had on the program, I would write down there like pop in there and good with zoom right, because I'm what do you do like.

Speaker 1: 48:57

You can't do that in real life yeah, you can't, which I'm sure they have one to fold up on you, so it's probably easier in person or at least a lot more forgiving, like in person that's true now.

Speaker 1: 49:10

But yeah, they like, if you like to write down the let the things that I had, I will say that doing it, I did mine in person and that was actually super helpful whenever it came time to decision and I only did it in person because they had no online. Like I must have been like last on the people that they gave an interview a list on, because there was not a single virtual interview left and there was only one day that I could come for applicants. But three of the people that were in the the in person interviews they got it. So I don't know, I mean, that's three out of 16, so that's not even that I have a branch like that's not that.

Speaker 2: 49:52

But I but you meet like all y'all match there.

Speaker 1: 49:58

Yeah, like well, there was like probably eight or 10 total, and then there was two in that day, but three out of that one group of eight match because I recognize them yeah that from one interview day. That's like one fourth of your class almost yeah, so it was definitely super helpful in that regard.

Speaker 2: 50:18

So, but I getting some under your bell and don't schedule your last, your like most important ones last either, because I started airing towards the end of the season and for me, I don't know like you can speak on the emergency medicine match versus pre-match situation, but psych has like a decent number of programs that are pre-match and not in the match season or whatever. So I had a couple interviews that were out of it and like that gave me like I had so much anxiety, like between January and March 13th, essentially because they roll out all their offers like super early, you know. So it's like you know that you're gonna have to make certain things like you have to like get like let go of certain things or you have to, you know, wait till the last moment to like oh now, this is my list, because my list is like different than these pre-match programs. So that was interesting too, because I feel like if the double-edged swords take a pre-match offer, yeah, yeah, that's actually super interesting.

Speaker 1: 51:21

I never because. So I think in the end maybe there's a couple that I just didn't know about, but they didn't seem like a ton, and so I really am curious about, like, how the pre-match works. Like whenever did they give you, like the full contract and everything and you're able to decide which one?

Speaker 2: 51:39

my situation. I actually didn't get an offer from either of my pre-match options that I like interviewed for. So I was like I was told that you can get an offer up until like match Monday, because you have to like obviously withdraw from the match if you, if you choose to take one of your pre-match offers or any of your pre-match offers or whatever it is, because it's like a breach of contract to like enter the match after that. So it has to be before match Monday.

Speaker 2: 52:04

It probably has to be before like programs make their match list, I'm assuming because we don't know what they make their list, but we know what ours are due, so I'm assuming and it has to be before them. So that whole time I was like, okay, like always check in my email like a crazy person, which is basically all of the interviews even. But you know, I was doing that just like trying to figure out because there are a decent number and it is like scary to think about because it's like you know you're you're making like this early decision, essentially like if you're referencing it back to like the common app and stuff from college like, and then you're like, oh, but what if? What if, what if with all the other things that are on the actual match list, like for March, so it's like it's back.

Speaker 1: 52:43

I think there's good and bad about both, but there there's a decent number of site programs like that yeah, like you get, you get the opportunity at least choose like, at least with the match, like you don't get. One of the bad things about the match is you know you get to rank it but you don't get to choose like they're picking for you. If you get eighth on your list, you get eighth on your list it's so great, like thinking, like, isn't that so crazy?

Speaker 2: 53:06

yeah, it comes down to like a big little match list, like you know. If you're comparing it to, like you know, greek life or something from college, we make lit.

Speaker 1: 53:15

It's just two different lives that I have to, like, make happy combinations, I don't know it's yeah, I mean it's, it's absolutely same, like and I know a lot of people were like, why would you be in Mississippi? And I chose them as my number one, mainly because it was the size and it was essentially everything that I wanted level one trauma center. A lot of crazy stuff happened, you know, being an emergency medicine, you, you want some chaos to happen.

Speaker 1: 53:41

Unfortunately, unfortunately so I definitely knew that that's what I wanted. But Like a lot of people don't get to choose, like I kept, like I I would always think about the people that if I had chose like there was a couple in New York and like in bad spots too up there and stuff, and I was like I really hope I don't have to move, but I hate to say that you know, like I know that you are still a resident there, but I was like just don't want to have to go back and live in Brookdale or whatever.

Speaker 2: 54:18

Well, I mean speaking on that like going off of what you're saying I I was born and raised in New Jersey, so it was like part of Jersey that was pretty suburban but it was it's not too many miles outside of, you know the West side of Manhattan.

Speaker 2: 54:33

So it's like always like the city was in my backyard and then I rotated a Nimbura, like I rotated in Queens. I lived in Queens when that happened and then I was like you know what, being at Lincoln it's a very busy place in the Bronx, in the South Bronx very large patient population, revolving door, literally I was like I think I need a little bit of peace when I'm going to be working in a place like this. So I did not move to Manhattan, I literally moved to West Escher County because it is a part of New York that's known for its greenery and a lot of its views alongside the Hudson River that are like, not in a metropolitan area. So I picked it for that reason, like I, yes, I love this coast, but I think the coast can be a lot. It's very density populated and I mean that's a suggestion I have to anybody who like wants to be in this area, that's so. You know it's a crazy place. Sometimes there are options to not live in the chaos, at least.

Speaker 1: 55:32

Yeah, manhattan is getting known for their other style or their other type of greenery, not the oh yeah, yeah, not the one in the store, but you know no. Yeah Well, they're putting the greenery in the stores too nowadays.

Speaker 2: 55:46

They are. For real yeah. So it's nice to be a little bit away from the chaos. Yeah, do you literally live in your hospital, or like do you have some space between you and?

Speaker 1: 55:58

So we live pretty close. It's only like six minutes away and that's like a drive. But there's a lot of I mean in Mississippi or like, because we're in Jackson. So there's there's like multiple different like small towns within the Jackson bubble and then then there it's. I think it's mainly like flatlands and farmlands. I really don't know if only this is like week number one for me, but I live pretty close to hospital, which is kind of one of the things I wanted, just in case anything happened. I've done the whole thing where I lived in Jersey City, but I would transit to Brooklyn every day and so I was like, okay, which, I don't mind, riding the train, because then I can do like you know I would. I'm gonna do my U-Wall questions on the train, yeah.

Speaker 2: 56:43

Honestly.

Speaker 1: 56:44

But yeah, just the like, the whole just transiting and all that, we found a good spot here. So yeah, luckily and luckily there's like we got a three bedroom with a back Yard and everything for the same price that I paid for the New Jersey studio apartment.

Speaker 2: 57:04

Oh my God, wow, that's amazing. These prices are insane.

Speaker 1: 57:08

So yeah, so I mean, I promise you it is. New York is expensive too, like everything here is two, two to three times less expensive, and when you go out to yeah, when you go out in New York, anybody that's listening. If you are in New York now, the price of a cocktail is double anywhere else in the world.

Speaker 2: 57:31

And it's factual yeah.

Speaker 1: 57:33

It is like even in Italy and Greece we'd go places and like the drinks would. The food would be expensive, but the drinks would be cheap. And then you got to New York and it's the exact opposite. You're like what is going on?

Speaker 2: 57:44

That sounds right. I don't know what that means about New York City. I love that. It's quite a lot. The cost of living is, and you know it is tough in a time like residency, where, like you know, it's not, it's not, you know, the ideal salary that you're probably going to get when you're done with your training and stuff like that. So they do tell you that they account for the cost of living, but the cost of living is like a little wild. So I'm like, really Do you do, are you? But you know it's okay, yeah.

Speaker 1: 58:08

Yeah, I think you'll make. Well, I don't know specifically for your program, but for the emergency ones that they were only making, they would make more like maybe like nine grand more, but the price of living and the price of housing and the price of everything else included is, you're not, you're not coming out on top of all that.

Speaker 2: 58:29

Because you're bleeding like it's just going straight to rent or whatever.

Speaker 1: 58:32

You know whatever you think but I'm sure you picked a good spot and everything. Did you have to do any like training and everything before? Or are they just throwing you in the fire?

Speaker 2: 58:44

Yeah, yeah, there's. There's been some training. I started last Monday, on June 20th, for you know more of the all residents generic stuff, like you know any of those CPR, bls, acls, things that you know apply to all residents, and then just like generic housekeeping things for all of us, like for us to know, like the union, that we're a part of things about insurance and payment and stuff, and then this week it has sort of broken off into all like departmental specific things, so spending more time on the site floors and, yeah, the next Monday is is day one. So I would say it's like 10 days of orientation stuff and then you start working.

Speaker 1: 59:24

Yeah Well, that's pretty good then. Yeah Well, at least where they can show you how to get things like where things are, how the EMR and everything works. I mean because I know some programs. They are just kind of now. Most programs do some sort of orientation thing, but some of them get. They get like tossed right into it like there's not a full and I get like a month where we're like warming up for the ER.

Speaker 2: 59:54

That's what I mean that's really good and I'm happy that you have that, because you are going to be in a very fast paced residency with a lot of trauma most likely yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:00:05

But it's like a you do a bunch of skills essentially skills training and stuff like that so that when day one comes they call you the super rotator because you're going to be the one just doing all the procedures and everything that pop up.

Speaker 2: 1:00:19

Oh, my God.

Speaker 1: 1:00:19

It's like oh.

Speaker 2: 1:00:20

That's right. I'm glad you have some a few days of it though, instead of being thrown into the fire. That's intense.

Speaker 1: 1:00:26

Yeah, you don't want to be. You don't want your first day to be an emergency day. You're like what they're like, you're going to let this person die right now. You're like yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:00:38

Oh my God, can you imagine like our last experiences sometimes be like a sim lab and you're like, oh, it's real people now.

Speaker 1: 1:00:46

What rotation are you starting with? Are you going straight to like the psych board?

Speaker 2: 1:00:50

In our program. You know, for anybody who's listening in as interested in psychiatry, I'm at Lincoln Hospital and it has a few various rotations that you can do. We have a psychiatric emergency room, we have inpatient psychiatry floors, we do some stuff with neurology and instead of being on the inpatient floor for internal medicine, which is what a lot of psychiatry programs do, for intern year we are in the outpatient clinic. So there's like some weeks of nightflow and other things like that. But I'm starting an inpatient which you know is pretty similar.

Speaker 2: 1:01:23

I got very lucky that I was already in a New York City health hospital for my medical school rotation, so it does help to know like the lay of the land and maybe like the way the work day goes. So the inpatient is inpatient psychiatry. Where people are, you know they're for a short term stay or a long term stay and yeah, it's not the most intense thing because they're not coming right out of the psychiatric emergency room. They've been stabilized for at least a few days before they come upstairs to the hospital setting. So I think, in terms of being like a brand new doctor, I'm a little happy that I'm not starting in something like emergency, because that can be a little bit daunting. So yeah, I think it should go well, hopefully.

Speaker 1: 1:02:04

Now you're going to do. Yeah, I have literally no doubt that you're going to do. Fine, I remember the my first couple because I did psych at Newbridge, which is to anybody that doesn't know or I don't know, did you do rotations there?

Speaker 2: 1:02:15

I know you did yourself I'm crazy, so I know where, where exactly, you're talking about.

Speaker 1: 1:02:20

It's essentially a facility that is just psych facility and it was. I had never I'd seen like emergency psych facilities and I'd seen it all separate, but I'd never seen one that was like this huge area and I mean it can be a lot, especially if you've got people coming from the psych emergency side into the inpatient people that have been there a while and so I mean it it's definitely chaotic. Yeah, I will say that like I think with you being an inpatient, everything you're going to get to see like how the attending is, like you're going to get to see the flow really easily.

Speaker 2: 1:03:02

Yeah, and that's. I think that's really helpful because I feel like it's not something that's super light, but it's also not, like you know, in in psychiatry of course, like when someone is in in same with like the main emergency room as well, like when someone's coming in they're not coming in with like a very small mundane issue, like they're. They're probably at their worst when they're coming through the emergency. So having any sort of medical stabilization or psychiatric stabilization is like it's helpful, and then you don't have to be like the first line. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:03:31

And I mean usually okay, like the one thing I love about the emergency department that is also one of the hindrances when you're first starting is there is no time to adjust or you know, like, follow necessarily, like a typical protocol, like you're just, everything is going to be different. And if you're, if you start in, you know emergency psych, like you're, you're not going to get to see how everything else operates outside of the emergency room.

Speaker 2: 1:04:02

Definitely.

Speaker 1: 1:04:03

So I'm you know. I think that's going to be a good place to start for y'all, and is it? Is each four or all four of y'all? Are you going to be in a different rotation at time?

Speaker 2: 1:04:14

Part. I feel like, yeah, they were not always like together, if anything were with one other person, like a buddy sort of thing. But in my program we have a very small program there is 16 of us total amongst the four years, so there's four in each class. So at any given moment, like we are, you know, we could be together, we might not be together, we might all be on call, we might not be. So I'm excited to see how that schedule plays out. But I think in the beginning there was a couple of us that are together but we branch off to do different rotations after that.

Speaker 1: 1:04:43

So hopefully they'll be able to like allow you to take. You know, I know you get your breaks, like your mandated breaks and everything, but hopefully, with being so with the four people or whatever, like hopefully they won't be like, hey, you're, you've got to be at the hospital all the time.

Speaker 2: 1:05:02

I think we were I think all of us that match. We were like a little nervous about that, but I think they've done a great job of, like you know, trying to spread the schedule out as much as they can, which is which is hard when there's like not enough people, of course but, it's.

Speaker 2: 1:05:16

Also it's a testament to know that they know what everybody's capacity is to, which is really nice and really great about programs. So that's something to pay attention to, to that people are hearing you, seeing what you're doing. Those are the places you want to be in.

Speaker 1: 1:05:29

Yeah, yeah, that's something to also ask when you're looking into your residency, because I remember I really liked this program. It was a it. They had six residents, six like incoming ER residents, but every resident kept saying like, oh, but we really need to. And they kept. Every resident would tell me like, oh, man, we really need to have more residents. And I was like, oh, what does that really mean? And nobody gives you a really straight answer in your interviews and the even the resident coordinator or the director had said something about oh, we're looking into getting four other ones, but it's probably not going to be this year and we're not sure. And I was like I'm confused of what all this means. And then one guy was like, hey, you going to be working all the time and I was like, oh, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:06:18

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:06:21

Cause he was like we need eight, cause they got another facility but they didn't get any more residents cause they didn't get approved. So they had to, which I'm not I wouldn't have been necessarily. That wasn't a make or break. It was certainly higher, higher up on the list, but it was definitely something that had to be aware of and if you're not looking for programs without flexibility, that's something to at least consider.

Speaker 2: 1:06:44

And I mean, if we're going back to even like paying attention to these sorts of things, like that's, I had an interview where I never got a straight answer either. And I mean, again, I started to learn like what the right questions are to ask in interviews and stuff. And I wanted to know about call schedule and I wanted to know about you know whether or not they're approachable about time. Like you know, those sorts of things are important to know, cause it is a job at the end of the day.

Speaker 1: 1:07:05

Right.

Speaker 2: 1:07:07

So I think you know people started to ask those questions and every single time somebody asked about the call schedule, they're like it depends, like it's hard to tell you, like sometimes you could be on call one time or you could have up to like seven 24 hour shifts in a month and I'm like that's a very large range, I'm very long. We're going to have to dial back, circle back to that because we don't know that makes a difference, because I feel like I mean, I know both of our specialties are very different, of course, but to not know where you stand on 24-hour shifts and not have a set number for that type of shift specifically, is that scary Because you need to recover from those things. You can't just be working on 24-hour shifts multiple times a week or many times a month.

Speaker 1: 1:07:54

Is this program going to work with me to make sure that I don't just burn out?

Speaker 2: 1:08:00

That's a big thing to pay attention to as well.

Speaker 2: 1:08:02

I know that you and I will probably learn even more about that as we begin our journey into residency and stuff, but the way there's so much burnout culture in circling residency and so many things that are messing with people's mental health when it comes to that that it's not something that I feel like maybe there was a lot of previous thought of.

Speaker 2: 1:08:21

It's okay, you're just going to get through it, Just go wherever go wherever you're going to do it and yeah, a lot of that is true, especially for a USIMG, non-USIMG. You can't bite the hand that feeds you, necessarily, but it's really important to pay attention to these things because you have to be here to get through it. You have to be a person along the way, Otherwise it's going to be a very difficult journey. And there's nothing wrong with requiring those things for yourself, which I think is another thing that medical students or aspiring physicians feel like they're not allowed, like I can't ask for too much of this better than the other, but you're a human and you're allowed to ask for time to sleep, I think.

Speaker 1: 1:08:59

Yeah, and it's literally to bring it full circle. It's like what we were talking about with the tests, like when you're stressed out and you have everything else going on, your performance is going to suffer in a way, even if you don't realize it, but you're not going to be at your full potential. I mean, I was just doing my employee benefits and if somebody, if some COVID or whatever, which I don't know, if you know they're going to make us start paying back to student loans now, now that we're finally getting paid, they're going to Like the timing of that is so.

Speaker 1: 1:09:32

I was like I knew it was going to happen.

Speaker 1: 1:09:35

Yeah, like when, if something terrible happens, you get a reprieve from almost every other kind of thing except for your medical school career, because they're going to be like hey, buddy, I don't care who died in your family, You're going to, if you take time off you got to, it's going to come back to haunt you. So yeah, I think, trying to find that best program and really like what you want to do to begin with, you know you got to have to find people that are going to work with you and, you know, try to help you out in the best way. How did you decide on psychiatry? Like what drove you to that?

Speaker 2: 1:10:11

I have a long relationship with psychiatry, I feel like because I feel like it was a specialty that I it was like you know how we were saying like oh, I don't remember when I met you Because, like I feel like I've always known you since day one Like I feel a very similar relationship to psychiatry in the sense that it was always like something around my life that I was like gravitated towards, and then, when it was time to make a decision, I was like, oh duh, like this is what I'm gonna do. I studied psych grad student when I was at Rutgers. I studied psychology and public health and then, when I did graduate school, all my research was in neuroscience and psychiatry. And it was crazy because it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to be a psychiatrist is why I want to do those things. It was just like more like an organic interest that like always fell into my lap. So it's like there must be a reason why, like, we're coming back to each other so often and to even go off, without tying it into our previous conversation, to really think about what you want to pick in terms of specialty.

Speaker 2: 1:11:09

When I was making my decision, I was like, what is the thing? Like what rotation was I on? Where, like, even if I was the most tired I've ever been, I still wanted to get up and go to the hospital every single day, Like on your worst possible day. If you still want to go to that rotation, you'd be like I can't wait to get there and like do this. Or I can't wait to like see this resident or like see my other colleague that's another med student and do this, or you can still simply just get out of bed and go, which is like a very big thing in itself, Like that's for you. You know what I mean? I never felt that way about certain other specialties, but I felt so passionate about psychiatry Like I was like I love going to this rotation and I also felt similarly in pediatrics. So I did dual apply to pediatrics and psychiatry because I felt that same feeling of wanting to be there in both rotations throughout the entire rotation.

Speaker 1: 1:11:57

So oh well, hey, that makes me feel so good to hear, for one. Like I could tell your excitement in your voice when you talk about it, and I definitely agree to what you're saying. Like, if you whatever, like really like, picks you up, like I remember, and I had been around emergency medicine but I didn't think that I was going to do it because my mom doesn't I was like, oh no, I'm not going to do maybe the same thing. It's kind of like holding it back at arm's length and it's like an old love. Even if you try to hold it off, it still happens.

Speaker 1: 1:12:33

And but I remember I would give B and I am my, I am rotations, which I absolutely hated. I cannot think I thought maybe cardiology, but then I did a couple I am rotations. I was like, can't do it because I would be so excited just to go to the ER for, to go see new patients or whatever, like I would just be like, oh yeah, like, and it would get me for one out of being on the floors or whatever. But I would be like, oh yeah, of course I'll do that, you know, and I just walk around and just hear, like you know, you see one guy walking around without his pants on and I'm like ha feels good to be back in the ERs are all the same, you know, and so I like I remember stuff like that that really made me like I loved it.

Speaker 1: 1:13:21

But I also I do apply like I, because I was drawn to, because you have more than one interest, for sure, and I was drawn to general surgery as well Like I loved. I know I know that those two may not seem like they match up very well, but I was always really drawn to surgery and I love like the operations, Like I still probably I would sit in there, like you know, not not to be crass or whatever, but like I, literally like I was on the spectrum, like I would just sit there and watch people do operations for days I could just sit in there, I would just watch their hands and think about myself doing it. And then they would like, do you want to do this? Like, yeah, for sure I could. I could do it essentially all day.

Speaker 1: 1:14:10

But I realized that like that was not even though I got enjoyment from being in the like in the operating room, I didn't enjoy any of the other stuff that came with surgery and I didn't. I knew that it would take me away from like family and everything like that. Like I knew it would be way more of a time commitment. So I'm certainly happy with what I did. But I mean, yeah, like even when you do apply, it feels like a dirty, like a, like a dirty X or something to bring up.

Speaker 2: 1:14:39

That's how I thought, and I think I did one of those Instagram takeovers for a match or resident and I think one of the questions I got was like is it okay to do a little pie? And like you know why? Like, why did you do that? Did you do that? What was your journey with it? And I was like my response to that was like, do a little pie because you want to do a little pie, just like anything else you put on the application. Do it because you want to.

Speaker 2: 1:15:02

And, like you said, people have varied interests. Some people go into med school knowing exactly what they want to do and that's exactly what they're going to apply for. But I think there's so much conversation, especially when you're talking to a US IMG or a non US IMG, that they have to apply to everything because that broadens their chances. And I understand that theory, I understand that thought process, but I also believe that don't apply to everything just for the sake of applying to it either. You know, like I feel like you really need to tell yourself that you're going to be doing this for the rest of your life and if you can be okay with that, making that mental decision before you make that decision like then you know that you should do apply Like it is going to be your job for the rest of your life. So you really want to not do it for the sake of just getting that match Monday, you know, but it's hard to think that way when you're in the process.

Speaker 2: 1:15:48

I know it's very daunting, but 100%.

Speaker 1: 1:15:52

Yeah, and I know people that do that exact same thing where and it kind of makes me like I want to be like stop, please, just don't do it, because some people dual apply. I know some people that dual apply site but they also do internal medicine and they have no interest in doing internal medicine but they know that there's a, there's a good chance that they, because there's just so many people that they accept every year. And I knew a guy that was going to do psych, internal and ER and I was like I get that this broadens your chances, but you've got to really want to do these and like I was left in this weird confusion state where I didn't necessarily know at the time and I didn't want to miss out on anything. But if you're doing it just because, like you have a desire to do one thing and you're like maybe if I get in I can switch after that, like you're better off not being an intern for two years.

Speaker 2: 1:16:50

Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1: 1:16:51

You can do a plenty of other things and I really, if I could recommend that to anybody, it would be that, yeah, you should really just find. If you know what your passion is and what you want to do, like people will be impressed by your determination and about just doing that Exactly.

Speaker 2: 1:17:07

They're like very like that's my goal, that's what I've always wanted. I'm going to do it For me. I love them so much. I also, I guess, in terms of a little bit background too, I worked as a teacher for while I was doing my masters and I work with little kids, so I really I liked Pete's too, and then I did the rotation. I was like, damn, I like this too. Like I wanted to only like one thing. You know, I want to be like. I'm going to be like my like light bulb moment and that's it. But I love them both so much.

Speaker 2: 1:17:35

And I told myself. I was like how do I incorporate both of those things in my life? Because I'm only going to match in one of them, right? So I told myself, and I also told myself that I would say this if any interviewer asked me like, if I'm a pediatrician, there's literally no way that, like there's no rule saying that I can't be a mental health advocate. I can very much so be a pediatrician, that's, advocating for mental health, for the youth population.

Speaker 2: 1:17:58

If I'm a psychiatrist, I can do that for sure, and I can like learn things about the generic internal medicine aspect of the drugs that we use in psychiatry and I can also do child adolescent psychiatry. So there's there was a way for me to make both things possible and still be happy doing them Versus. Like you know, it's hard, like it's hard to see, like some of those things intersecting because every specialty has, like its own uniqueness for sure. But if you can see yourself like fitting into them or making your own niche, no matter what you match into, I think that's like a good way to like make your decision about dual plying maybe not like just because I need to match or something you know.

Speaker 1: 1:18:38

Yeah, yeah, and I think that is honestly, that's great, that you even gave it that thought process. I'm laughing because I'm thinking about my like you are a godsend, because when I did my peed psych, I mean when I did my psych rotation, I thought and things were a little troubled, like when I was growing up, like when I was kid, right. So I was like, oh, peed psych, like I'm gonna go in there, I'm gonna help these kids like I want to. I want to get in there and like be comforting and make a difference. And then I was like it was just so much. I was like, oh my God, I was like I can't do it, I needed, I had to go. I was like I need a beer after my like last I did it for a week. I was like I can't do this, I can't, and I was so excited for it. And it's just because you have to deal with such like hardships. And then there's their kids, so they don't have the control that an adult does.

Speaker 2: 1:19:41

I agree, and I think the way things are going to like there's, there's so much I remember, like when we were kids, like the only social media network that my parents allowed me to have anyways was Facebook, right, but like there are so many things there that like and it just it just breaks my heart, honestly. And what is the one of my desires to push for? Child adolescents psychiatry? You know, I will keep my mind open for any of the other specialties in psych, of course, but it's like there's so much out there and I just want to like hold them all because there's like TikTok, there's, you know, all these different, various like forums to put themselves on and be vulnerable in, and it just scares me that there's like where does it end, you know?

Speaker 2: 1:20:24

And with the way suicide is going and the way you know it's really affecting people who are under 21 years old, it's like I want there to be more of a community for their support, because I feel like a lot of things that happen to us, that we think about when we reflect on and we even have trauma from, happen when we're under 21 years old and it helps you form your like defense mechanisms, it puts up your walls for when you're an adult and a lot of psychiatry is breaking those things.

Speaker 2: 1:20:52

So I feel, if there's enough of us to pursue child adolescent psychiatry like you're you're not in this like tertiary or like coronary method of prevention at this point, like you're at the primary, secondary methods of prevention, which is like great, you're avoiding suicide, you're avoiding so many other things that are so much harder to unlearn when you're an adult, that I just I really hope there's a strong enough community of psychiatrists that want to do this. It is tough. I agree with everything you're saying. It is. It's a lot. It's a lot to be on the receiving end of when you're hearing about it, but it's just so neat.

Speaker 1: 1:21:28

It really is yeah, oh, it's probably the most needed, because, once you know, it's great to hear your thoughts on it, because I, I think the same thing, like when they're much older. You know, it's very hard to break a habit and I even even later in my life it took me. You know, like you have to like be comfortable with yourself and you have to have these realizations. You have to really think back on on things. And then you're like, okay, like I guess I am acting out because of this reason or whatever, but you never think about that when it's happening, like he's like an argument with your significant other, whatever. At the time you're like, oh, is everybody out to get me? What is this? And then you look back and you're like, oh, I was the wrong one the whole time.

Speaker 2: 1:22:15

But it never happens during it.

Speaker 1: 1:22:16

It takes like five. Yeah, you got to separate yourself and then you're like, oh, I'm an idiot, no, but worse.

Speaker 2: 1:22:23

you know it's like that sounds bad to say, but I feel like you know it's so much more work to have to relive something that happened so long ago because you haven't been able to internalize it until later on in life, like if we have this opportunity to help people as it's happening, which is what we do with everything else, you know in medicine like we're doing primary prevention, secondary prevention for diabetes, cholesterol, cardiovascular disease, like anything that's related to anything physiological.

Speaker 2: 1:22:53

And this organ that we have here is the one that's the most complex, is what separates us from everybody else on this planet, and it has the power to end everything out ever. It has the power to end every other organ and it's so much harder to unlearn those habits about not wanting to be on this earth, about having, like very convoluted ways of thinking or anxiety or even schizophrenia, all of these things like, if they're addressed earlier in life, like there's so much more of a chance of a healthier life later on. And I hope that there's enough people that want to do child adolescence psychiatry, including myself, because who knows what residency will bring.

Speaker 1: 1:23:29

But you know we're not saying that you have to commit to it, but yeah, I definitely, I definitely agree with what you're saying and it is a very desired role in the community. I won't because, yeah, that primary prevention is what we're doing for literally everything else. And I think, and I think that with social media and everything, it's like a dual edged sword, because for one, you completely dissociate, in a way like if something bad's happened to you, or it's like my meeting today I got super bored. I almost instantly click Instagram, you know, like just to see for one second and then I'm like what am I doing? You're an idiot.

Speaker 1: 1:24:14

But if something else is terrible is going on and you see it a lot like people will start to live their lives online and they'll kind of step away from the present and then, or what's going on? Like actually to them because you can be somebody different online. But also you're not internalizing that at all, you're not trying to figure it out, you're not processing it, you're just pushing it off. But I guess for some people it allows them that space they can like they probably need a little space, but I do think, like what you're saying, like where you can internalize and get to the bottom of it early, it's probably for the best. So you know it's like a. It's a double edged sword.

Speaker 2: 1:24:59

Social media. It's great for things like this. Like you have a podcast, you have this like forum to like share ideas about things and like maybe get conversations started. It's a place for us to all share news and like keep up with what's happening in the world. That's like something that we would have never been able to do, like to help other people in places that we're not like physically in. So it's like a really good tool for that. And it's also a fun tool like to like share fun things like with your friends and family on the internet. But it's like I agree it's like a double edged sword and it like gives you this potential to have like such a dissonance between what's happening in the real world and what's happening on your phone, like, and there's people that like it's like this mentality. I feel like that didn't exist before and I mean I'm a culprit of it, like I'm not immune to this at all whatsoever when I'm saying that.

Speaker 1: 1:25:43

Yeah, that's why I realize it.

Speaker 2: 1:25:45

Yeah, I'm realizing it because I like do it, like I'm not like this, like you know, awesome person, that's like so like pure and above it, but like we all post what we're doing online for stories and stuff like that, so like we've created like this reality online that might be be very similar to the one in real life and for some people it might not be and it's like a statement in some ways so.

Speaker 1: 1:26:08

And it's really easy when you're supposed to be studying or doing something else. Oh, yeah, or yeah, at the very, very little and I'm gone.

Speaker 2: 1:26:16

It's not going for hours, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:26:18

Not here anymore, but yeah, so is there a fellowship that you're thinking? I mean, I know we talked a little bit about childhood, but are you just kind of letting it go, take you wherever it goes?

Speaker 2: 1:26:29

I yeah, I'm going into it like because I'm very curious and interested in child adolescence psychiatry. But I want to keep my mind open because I feel like, like you said earlier in the conversation, lincoln is the place where I'm going to see everything. So it's like who knows what I'm going to see or be exposed to that could maybe want me to kickstart a career out of that too. But we'll see. There's like a few options in psych now. There's addiction, psychiatry, forensics, like for anybody interested in psych. There's numerous fellowships out there. Child adolescent can even do, you know, just specifically emergency medicine, psych stuff. So there's a lot of ways to run with your career, thankfully, so the world is your oyster girl.

Speaker 2: 1:27:08

Yeah, and yours too.

Speaker 1: 1:27:09

Yeah, so hopefully I'll be able to pick something where I'll be able to build double every time something happens.

Speaker 2: 1:27:18

I mean listen, this Biden unfreeze situation yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:27:22

Yeah, I need another freeze. Somebody come out with the next.

Speaker 2: 1:27:30

Because, like, we're both going to be on the frontline of that. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:27:33

Okay, I backtrack, I backtrack, but yeah, so I just have one last question, because I know we had talked a little bit about using match or resident and everything. Did you use any other like tools or anything for the match process and like figuring out how you were going to apply to which programs or what you could do?

Speaker 2: 1:27:58

Yeah, I use match or resident. I used, since I dual applied. I used it for pediatrics and psychiatry to help me make my list of programs, because that is my gosh. If I tried to apply to all of both of them, that would have been a lot of programs and a lot of money actually, and it was helpful. Honestly, it was really helpful.

Speaker 2: 1:28:17

Now that I'm looking at it retrospectively, based on like interviews I received for both pediatrics and psychiatry, a lot of them were on the list that match or resident gave me or produced for me, based on all of my information, so I'm very thankful for that. That was helpful. Then, in terms of the interview process, I did try to, in terms of resources, I would go online and try to find some common questions that were asked that year and try to flesh out some of my own template answers of them before interview season started, and I practice in real life with a friend, because I feel like you can type out all these things but you're not going to be staring at that paragraph that you typed out during the interview. So it was helpful to like actually talk to somebody and do an interview and have them ask me questions real time, and I really recommend that. I really recommend practicing with, like somebody you know.

Speaker 1: 1:29:03

Yeah, it's super expensive to use all the resources you can to narrow it down, but the most helpful tool that I have was doing I did a fake interview with PJ, oh, and we, honestly, we did one and then we did another. No, I don't even know if we got to do our first one, maybe we just did the one and we interviewed, we like recorded it and we made it a podcast. But I'm so glad he asked me one question. I'm so glad we did this because he asked me one question and the internet stream like went out and I came back and I was like, oh, what is something about leadership or something? And he goes oh, you really had to cancel the call because of that, and I was, so for one, I was glad because I barely edited that one and I had a terrible answer for that.

Speaker 1: 1:29:55

I was being very honest with my, you know, with ourselves, and. But I came to find out that, like, a lot of the questions that I was thinking of for myself didn't pop up, but they popped up in his, and then a lot of questions he thought of for me popped up on for me somehow, and so I don't know if they just watched that episode and they were like I'm just going to hit him with the questions. He sucked at the first time, but by the time it came around like because the first time a question is asked for you, you you kind of can't figure out how to specifically say it and it may lead to you going uh, uh, uh or not elaborating very well, and it takes like the second or third time for you to really get like that rhythm of how I'm knowing how to answer specifically the question and do it well. And so the practice with a friend is, it was so helpful, it was beyond and like they let you come up with questions, let them come up with questions, come up with quirky ones, come up with serious ones, and just see how it goes. Because that was, yeah, I agree with you. If that was helpful for you, it was certainly helpful for me.

Speaker 2: 1:31:12

It was really helpful with the like. There are some generic questions that people are going to ask you Like I think this is a dreaded question for everybody. They'll like tell me about yourself. One which is like it's. It sounds like such an easy thing to ask somebody, but the refieving in is like oh my God, what do I say? Yeah, so I actually like practiced a couple responses of that Like and I really based my response off of the vibe in the interview and like whatever was happening in real time, but I had like ideas of various different responses to the tell me about yourself question because it's such a broad question.

Speaker 1: 1:31:49

Yeah, and I mean there's so many things you can say. And the I will say too, because we were talking about PJ and everything like he was very, like, we were very critical and it was funny because at first we were like, oh, good answer. And then you know, let's say, I critiqued one of his answers and then the next time he was like how about you say it with more conviction next time, you know? Or well, no, I'm not just playing, he didn't say it like that, but he was like you know you got to say it, you know you got to say the answer, but and not actually, because sometimes when you do feedback, you're just like, oh yeah, good job, man, good job, man, good job. But you don't ever say how they can help out on it.

Speaker 1: 1:32:31

And then I remember everything that he told me, like whenever I was starting to stumble or being very long winded sometimes I could be long winded, searching for the right thing to say it allowed me to tighten it up, like I knew I needed to tighten it up, like my tell me about yourself was super long winded. It was like I'm from a small town and then I come around and blah, blah, blah and I start here. Then I do this and I make a podcast, and he was like shorten it in any way, like make it be like oh yeah, I do this, that, this, this, and then I do. I just hit the main points that you think that they're going to want to hear, and yeah, so oh, this, this.

Speaker 2: 1:33:17

Oh, I forgot about that. I forgot about that.

Speaker 1: 1:33:19

Yeah, you start telling your story and then you're like, oh, I got plenty of time. And then they're like you know, you just spent the whole interview talking. One question.

Speaker 2: 1:33:28

And it's always like the first one to.

Speaker 1: 1:33:31

Yeah, yeah. So I essentially just kept throwing them fodder, Like, oh okay, like, do you like this or do you like you know college for it to be like whatever? If I saw some college sports things, I'd be like, yeah, I played football and I, yeah, you have like your go to, and so that, yeah, that was super helpful and to I don't know if you I guess you you may not have done it on a video, but it was actually very helpful to me for us to video each other and then us watch it, because you realize that you're doing like this and you're yeah moving your head all the time and then you start getting better at it, just because you if you don't realize it like, if you don't like editing this podcast I recognize how many times I said um or like and so it really helped me prevent myself from saying it.

Speaker 1: 1:34:23

Because you're like, are you really saying the same word every time somebody asks a question?

Speaker 2: 1:34:29

And I mean, and the thing is, like you you think that oh, I'm a conversationalist or in somebody who's like, really I don't have a problem like interviewing at all. I'm sure those things are very true. In a lot of ways I'm sure they are, but, like you said, like you need to kind of flesh those things out, because it's so different when you're like on real time and someone assessing you and it's like a job interview.

Speaker 2: 1:34:51

You know, it's a job interview at the end of the day, you don't realize those things and I'm sure even with conversationalists like, it's probably something that comes very naturally. But you also just want to avoid some of those things.

Speaker 1: 1:35:06

Yeah and there's a lot of people that are paying attention to those things and they're going to get way sharper than you by the end if they're paying attention to it.

Speaker 2: 1:35:14

That is very true. It's literally they're so used to this now they like see so many candidates all the time, so I'm sure like they know what to look for and what to not like and all those things Practice practice, practice, baby.

Speaker 1: 1:35:28

Hey, that's all in medicine, right there. Well, that's a great way to end it. Then keep practicing, everybody. Yeah, trish, thank you so much for coming. If anybody wants to reach out to her, I'm not going to give all of your information, but you can find. You can email us at off white coat podcast at gmailcom, or we're on all the social media. So off white coat podcast, reach out to us. I can all of that them for you in case there's anything. No, we really appreciate you coming through and sharing your wisdom is just going to catch up with you again.

Speaker 2: 1:36:05

Of course I love this. I'm so glad that you know through graduation and now we've had a few conversations before residency kicks off.

Speaker 1: 1:36:12

So yeah, we'll have to not make it so so much time in between the next.

Speaker 2: 1:36:17

Definitely not, definitely not, but thank you for having this, of course.

Speaker 1: 1:36:21

Thank you everybody for listening. We'll see you.