45: How to Scale a Consulting Firm Globally with Matthieu Courtecuisse

What does it take to build a consulting firm that is global from day one?
In this episode, Joe O’Mahoney speaks with Matthieu Courtecuisse, Founder & CEO of Sia, about the long-term decisions behind building one of the world’s largest founder-led consulting firms.

Matthieu shares how Sia was built with international scale in mind from the very beginning, why founder commitment matters more than capital in global expansion, and how early investments in data, AI, and technology shaped the firm’s competitive advantage. He explains Sia’s augmented consulting model, where proprietary platforms and AI tools sit at the core of delivery—not as add-ons.

The conversation also covers Sia’s approach to growth through selective acquisitions, the balance between building and buying capabilities, and how culture-led integration supports scale. Joe and Matthieu close by discussing how AI is reshaping consulting economics, talent models, and why firms need to think in decades, not quarters, when building lasting value.

In this episode you will learn:

• Why Sia was built with global scale as a core ambition
• How founder commitment drives successful international expansion
• Why early investment in AI and data created long-term advantage
• What augmented consulting looks like in practice
• How Sia approaches M&A without diluting culture
• Why consulting firms must think long-term to build real value

This episode offers a long-term view on what it takes to build a global consulting platform—through sustained investment, founder leadership, and a clear belief in technology as a driver of scale and value.


Connect with Matthieu:

LinkedIn: Matthieu Courtecuisse

Website: SIA-Partners.com 

Resources:

SIA Case Study

Prof. Joe O'Mahoney helps boutique consultancies scale and exit.  Joe's research, writing, speaking and insights can be found at https://equitysherpa.com.

Transcript

Origins And Early Vision

Joe 0:00

Welcome to the Consulting Growth Podcast. I'm Professor Joe Omani, CEO of Equity Sherpa. We help owners of consultancies quadruple the equity value of their firms over a two to four year period. If you'd like to know how we do this, visit Equitysherpa.com. Welcome everyone to the Consultancy Growth Podcast. I am Joe Omani, a professor of consulting, and very, very excited to have, I think, the founder and owner of the largest consultancy we've had on the podcast. And actually one of the largest founder-owned consultancies, founder-run consultancies in the world. Matthew Courtocris, who founded uh a long time ago now, Sia. So, Matthew, thank you so much for joining us. It's such a pleasure to have you on board.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Thank you, Joe, for having me.

Joe 0:54

You must be a busy, busy man as well, because it doesn't look like you've slowed down at all over the last 20 odd years.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

I think the world is changing so fast that it's uh that's the world which is creating so much uh uh uncertainty and um that's also exciting at the same time.

Joe 1:10

Did can I ask, when you when you first started Sia, did you did you have any idea? You know, I I realize some people start with a plan to grow and sell, but did you start with a plan to get anything like the size that you have got over the years?

Deciding To Go Global

The Founder Factor In The US

SPEAKER_01 1:29

I I would say like the um the the creation of the company was like in two-step approach. Um you know, uh, first of all, you mentioned like uh we are uh CI is one of the largest firms in the world, uh, which is still uh led by founder, right? So but uh it's also one of the singular topics is I never work for any other consulting firm, okay, which is not that common. And and most of the consulting firms that are uh like boutiques and all the stuff, it's it's also fair to say that most of them have been created by people coming from the consulting industry. And it was not my case. I was uh 25, 26, 26 years old when I created the company. And um at the very beginning, uh with uh two of my friends when we started, uh we were we are having no plans, right? So just the fact that we have uh the chance, we were having the chance to uh to have clients and in and projects, just as a starter. So when you are like 25 years old, you are not thinking uh always like uh long-term, or at the same time, it was pretty much our case. We were pretty much like uh the the risk adverse factor was not really in our mind. We didn't care about anything. So we we're just having uh very, very uh attractive projects to start with. Um one was related to my very very uh short uh career before creating SR but was at the working at the World Bank, and we were having the chance to have like a few projects just to start, and and we you know it was very opportunistic uh for one year and one year and a half, but it came to a point like after 12 months, uh we were having already 20 people, okay? And so uh it was the the time for us to think about what was uh what was the real plan, the long-term playbook. And and for me, it was very clear. It can it became very clear that uh SIA would become uh the company of my life, my whole professional life. Uh, because I found like uh being a consultant was like uh uh very, very uh it was uh some kind of an extraordinary uh uh journey. Uh to it it was giving me a lot of freedom in my daily life, because in the end, it's the way you can build your own agenda. And um, so I and I was feeling that the market was having uh so many opportunities to grow, and it was at the same time so much uh balkanized that it was possible to build a global platform. So quite rapidly, I was saying, like, okay, this come this market is led by the major clients, Fortune 500 type clients, and if you want to be credible working with them, you have to become global. So very rapidly I started to think about like the long-term play, uh, because um it's a people-first business, and and to become global, it's one of the very, very hardest things to achieve in this business. And I was uh quite clear on the fact that uh it would require at least 15, 20, 30 years to build such a platform, right? So uh so quite rapidly, uh yeah, um, but it took like one year, one year and a half before confirming this intuition. Uh, and then I started to work on always on three-year strategic plan, and I've been conducting the firm always based on this, uh, to have like a uh the real intention to reinvest most of the you know the benefits, uh the profits coming out from the firm because it's also uh obviously the consulting business is like an opex business, but at the same time, if you want to become global, uh in that case, it's becoming more CapEx uh approach. And um but that's making the difference between the companies that are staying in their status of uh boutique consulting firms as opposed to the ones that are capable to really grow and to uh go outside of their comfort zone. And what I'm saying, like comfort zone can be like your home market, it could be your home capabilities, your home personal network in the end. And um, if you want to uh to uh develop like a real platform, then you need to invest. And and and it became quite rapidly clear to me that uh it would require a lot of investments over the years. Um and and and to develop like the culture at the global level, it's it's it's it's very challenging, I have to say.

Joe 6:24

Yep, yes, like I I can imagine, and it gets harder, especially with international expansion. And once you start to employ managers and then managers of managers, it's it's hard to keep the same culture but also retain control of the culture, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Yeah, plus I mean, like uh started in France, and if you go like we have uh we have been setting up an office in in in Japan as a good example, and I can tell you like very, very few firms are taking this challenge. Uh, but we started like uh in 2009, I think, in Dubai and in Saudi Arabia, and when you are just coming from your home market, right? So to and you you you know, like uh if you are staying in Paris, it's just you can make meet with uh many decision makers, executives from uh the CAC 40 firms. Uh it's we are we are all living in the same districts, we are all coming from the same schools, right? And but if you want to go and build your network in Saudi Arabia um to work like on Vision 2030 as we do today, you have to work a bit. And yeah, and and can I can tell you you have to you have also to invest uh in long-term relationships. So uh so I knew quite rapidly, but it it would be a very, very long journey. I'm I'm still in the middle of it, to be honest. I think uh after 25 years, uh 26 years uh running this firm. I think um hopefully I'm in good shape and in good good health. So uh I think uh it's gonna require a lot of time uh to achieve this primary objective I set up like 25 years ago.

Joe 8:06

Wow, it's great to have I know you talked about three-year plans, but having that sort of vision of an international consultancy as the backbone and also an enabler of success is is great to hear about. As as you touched on international expansion, it would be interesting because you and I both know a lot of firms who tried to break America and failed, it was too expensive, or they had no brand name, or partnerships fell through. Or you know, even just moving next door, you know. I know lots of UK companies that have tried to expand into France or Germany and have have failed because it's it's difficult and requires investment. Other than the investment that is needed, do you have a playbook for international expansion? So have you had a series of gates or stages that you typically go through, or does it depend by by the location that you're going into?

Barriers To Entry And MSAs

SPEAKER_01 9:10

I think uh it's if I I may say like this, I don't think it's very complex to understand. Uh the the thing is it's more like an execution topic, and it's not a matter of money, it's not a matter of of anything else, it's more a matter of like how much the the CEO is investing in in his personal time. So being on the ground. Uh in the US, one of the major factors is uh to be distinctive in the mix and is like the founder factor. And um and it's it's very crucial in the US, like you you can get a lot of respect. You can come from any any country in the world, but having the this specific status, being not just the CEO, but to be the founder, it's it's changing everything. Okay, yeah, it's changing everything when it comes to recruitment to be uh attractive in the in the discussions, but also you have to commit your personal time into it. So um we I we we we have been in the US for uh uh 13 years, and I decided immediately after we uh well we uh we created the the firm here in the in New York um to spend at least one week per month in the US, starting first in the in New York and then in multiple markets. Today we have a presence in 12 different cities in the in the US. And and by the way, it was becoming harder for me from France to uh to uh commute to all these markets because from Paris or from London to go to New York, it's pretty like it's as if sometimes you are it's it's harder to go to some other places in your home country, but like so it's like uh you know it's a nice commute, but when you are going into the Bay Area, which is key for us in our uh our development in the US, uh from France, from Europe more generally speaking, it's pretty hard, right? So because you have like nine hours of time zone difference, and then you have like even just you are not just landing in San Francisco, you need to go to Palo Alto, you need to go to San Jose, you need to go to multiple places in the Bay Area, and it creates like more difficulties from a pure logistic standpoint. But to make it clear, if you want to uh convince clients, if you want to convince uh the best talents in the market in the US, you just need to dedicate a maximum of your time, which is doable. And if um, in some cases, and it's it's common to see that for startups, if you look at unicorns from Europe that are successful in the US, most of the time they have like uh two or three founders, and one of them is relocating in the US very rapidly, if the company started before in Europe, okay? Uh, because that's the founder factor anyway, and it works for any business in the end, uh, especially the ones that are people first. I it's it's very, very, very important to dedicate uh this. And it's not always possible, like uh, because it means from a personal standpoint, uh, yeah, if you are, and it was my case, I've been running the French operations until 2023. So if you are running your home country and at the end of the day, we were a bit more than 1,000 people in France, and I was running the our hub of operations from a day-to-day basis, but in addition to this role, I was uh also committing in addition to that in the US, like all the time. So you need to be uh, you know, to work in a way uh which is uh you need to be efficient, let's say. Um and and you need to accept this. And it came to me like uh I that's why also in 2023 I decided to uh relocate in the US, uh, because uh the idea was to uh to transform or to convert the uh the US market for us as our top market. That's gonna be the case over the next two or three months. It's gonna become like our top market. Um, and it's it's normal because given the size of the US market as opposed to any other one in the in the world, uh that's making a lot of sense. And uh and there are some other specifics in the US market uh that are making so important to be there. I can elaborate on that if you want, but it's it's it's it's it's very important for any consulting firm to have a very, very strong presence there. Uh, if I refer to like a publicist uh which is similar in terms of like uh business uh um at the Gen C World, um you know uh the US market is representing 40-50 percent of the total revenue as opposed to seven, eight percent for France. And it's it's and and that's I'm not saying it's gonna be the case for us, but like it's it's it's very clear that for most western businesses, uh the US market is definitely the most important one. And and you have to be there anyway. If you want to become a global platform, if you want to just to be a niche player in your home market, that's fine. You you don't have to go there because yeah, it's requiring a lot of time, investment, but more importantly, a lot of dedication in terms of uh um you know uh time uh you want to spend.

Joe 14:21

Yeah, I I think that's a really good challenge for owners and CEOs of firms. I know um Steve Newton at Elixir has spent a lot of time in the States and they've been pushing US expansion quite heavily. But I think your challenge around actually, this is the leader's job to get over there, to drum up business, to to leverage his his or her reputation is is something that not all leaders want to do, of course.

Differentiation Through Data And AI

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Yeah, because it's so nice to stay at home to have like you know to uh to meet uh because also it's harder to get uh you know prospective meanings and and and and and it especially in the US, one of the difficulties, and I can also elaborate on some specifics of the US market, but uh to get an MSA in place with when you want to work with very large companies, if you want to uh work with JP Morgan, if you want to work with uh Google and some others, uh you know, it takes sometimes two years to get an MSA in place. It's uh the level of bureaucracy in a B2B2 business in the US is quite high. Okay. If I compare uh if I compare to other countries, right? So uh in the any in Europe, sometimes it's easier, right? Uh and even though like uh in the consulting market, I've seen that for the last 20 years. Um it's harder and harder to get MSAs because uh there is some direction from coming from the buyers to consolidate their vendor uh basis, right? So that's that's that's where we are. But like 10 years ago, even 10 years ago in the US, it was already very hard to get an MSA in place. I will not name some of our clients, but like even sometimes it can take like up to three years. Wow, okay. And and and so uh, like concretely, if you need a certain level of uh long-term commitment if you want to consider that, because it's the return is won't be immediate anyway. Okay, it's not possible. So uh, and that's also one of the reasons why you can see so so many acquisitions in the consulting market in the US. It's because uh there is uh a real uh barrier of entry uh when you want to work with very, very, very large companies in the US, especially when it comes to financial services, which is heavily regulated, and and there is a specific stamp for consulting services uh in the mix. One of the other factors to make it successful in the US is you need to rely on your home uh let's say or your legacy client uh portfolio. If you have no clients in your home market, could be London, could be uh France, could be Germany, that are you know happy to work with you in the US market. And most of the you know, the European companies they have a very, very large presence in the US because it's it's very common to see like if you go to pharmaceuticals or banks or whatever, like the US market is is generally speaking with one of the largest one uh market for them, and and they have like a certain level of autonomy to spend on consultants in the US. And you need to convince some of your clients coming from your legacy portfolio to work with you in the US. If you are not capable to do so, it's you can't you cannot be successful in the US. So there are a couple of uh you know criteria in the mix uh that you need to uh it's like a checklist if you want, but uh yeah, it's it's it's also very important because if you have nothing to bring to the table in terms of uh distinctive capabilities or client relationships, it's gonna be hard to success.

Joe 17:55

Yeah, great. I'd I'd love to delve in a little bit to the MA um bit uh in in a second, but just before I do, um how because you're of the size now, I mean you're around 500 million revenue, um, whether you know euros or dollars you can adjust to the event.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Yeah, it's it's it's it's a bit more, it depends on local US volatility now. Sure.

Joe 18:19

It depends on the exchange rate. Um so so how how have you got so you're now and you have been for some time competing with the big established players that have been in the boardrooms for a long time. You know as well as I do, very often these relationships are very tight and very personal. Um how has SIA shifted? So I guess this is a question about your value proposition and your differentiator compared to some of the big players that you would be competing with.

Winning Big Tech As Clients

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Well, uh for sure, when it comes to distinctiveness, I think uh the market has also been changing a lot over the last 15-20 years, right? So at the very beginning of the foundation of the firm, the um the uh the uh the philosophy was very simple. Uh we wanted to build um a new district expertise-driven company, right? So to have a very strong uh capacity on each vertical we wanted to build. So starting with uh uh banking, but like it's it's not banking at the end of the day, it was more like a regulation in risk and compliance and finance for banking. That was really the niche that we started with, like with a lot of density in terms of expertise. Sam, we started immediately with energy uh related to uh the deregulation in the uh electricity and gas markets across Europe, a bit like barring gas, you know, very well in the in the UK. So immediately like it was really these factors. Okay, to have like a maximum of density within the industry expertise. And then over time, we have been adding other capabilities, starting with digital transformation that came quite rapidly in the mix. And that became for us more than 15 years ago now, around data transformation journey, right? So and and and now I think we are coming to a point where we it's it's could be a turning point for the uh the the consulting market uh overall, uh, because it's not only the nature of the capabilities we are selling to the clients, but also the way we are engaging with them on more like on a business model, which is more outcome-based, potentially subscription in the mix, uh, how to combine a hybrid workforce between consultants and agents. So it's gonna be a very interesting uh journey for the next few years, but uh I think um the other day you shared with me uh a deck that you are uh working on with your students, and uh you you posted in on LinkedIn very nicely. Uh uh, you know, 10 years ago, um I proposed to the market the concept of consulting 4.0 that was more like augmented consulting. And and because I was feeling like more than 10 years ago, the potential mix between consulting and AI, consulting and data to be more and more, let's say, data driven or AI driven. And I think we are now getting the benefits of all this work we did like 10-15 years ago because it's requiring a lot of IP, it's requiring a lot of uh testing and learning approach, it's requiring some investments, which is not get you are not getting the returns like immediately on this, so you need a long-term playbook again again, same with the global platforming as approach. When it comes to AI, we have been investing in our platform like uh more than 30 million. Okay, so when when you when you are developing this type of platforming approach, you need again because you need also to convince the clients because it's not just a matter of distinctiveness, it's just like the clients they don't understand spontaneously, let's say, why uh strategy consultants are coming to them and like talking about AI. Like 10 years ago, it was very bizarre to code the clients on this type of playbook, and now it's yeah, obviously, there is even like an some kind of AI fatigue in the boardroom. Um, sometimes also uh uh they are feeling about like the impact of AI in their own businesses, but uh so yeah, but I've seen like the shift in the market like two, three years ago with the chat GPT effect, I would say. Uh few consulting players five years ago were really investing in this. Um, I can I could name some of them, but it's it was like we were just a handful of of consulting firms really believe in this, who really believe in this, yeah, especially at the CEO level, because I know some of my peers, and uh it's fair to say that uh I have an AI engineering background, which is not like the regular background for let's say, which is more like an MBA and all stuff, right? So um, so I think for I I said like a top priority for us that uh data and AI was uh uh very distinctive in the mix. And yeah, so a couple of years ago, and especially going back to the US factor, when you are coming to the clients and say, like we are capable to have like this approach on data, uh yeah, I think you can create some distinctiveness in the mix, especially uh, and I I think it was one of the specifics I wanted to mention to you today, is like more than 40% of our revenue in the US is generated with the the Mach 7. Okay, so you know, like the US market, like any other consulting market in the world, you know, banking is already always representing 25-30 percent, even 35 percent, even like London is even more than 35, uh, which is going to the banking industry. Okay, in the US, it's it used to be the case, but it's not anymore. Uh it's not anymore because um the tech, the the the big tech companies started to work with consultants only six, seven years ago. Okay, like there was like you know, the consulting ban, uh philosophy coming from Jeff Bezos, right? So that was one of our standards in the mix. It was like no PowerPoint decks, no consultants, and it was like really clear. But even Amazon today is using more and more consultants, and I'm not talking about AWS, I'm I'm really talking about like the core business of Amazon. Um, there is still one ban, uh, which is with the the Musk environment, it's which is very hard to penetrate, I would say. Uh, even though we have been working a bit with one of his companies, but it's it's it's very tough. But when it comes to other major tech firms, they are using extensively consultants. It was not the case. And and given the the acceleration of um the tech industry in the GTP numbers of the US, uh, and even though they are spending less, if you are in terms of if you can allocate uh a percentage of their revenue into the consultant budget, yeah, it's not like a bank. But given the fact that the these companies are growing like 25, 30, 40 percent a year, the uh the evolution of the consulting budget is following this trend, okay, in in that specific segment. And so if you want to have like a long-term uh ambition in the US market, you have to uh to develop relationships with these companies, okay. So and and I decided like uh back in 2019 to invest a lot and to dedicate uh also some of my time to make sure that we were capable to uh to work with them. And and most of the stuff we are doing there, like they are launching uh new products, new services all the time. They have now to face with uh heavily regulatory threats. Uh they are they have they are becoming like multi uh multi-portfolio businesses, right? So and it's it's very vast. And and so the complexity which is coming with this is also creating some opportunities for um the consulting industry. And and and and that's one of the the major uh you know investment we'd made, and also um when it comes to transformation within the big tech firms, data is always at the core of anything. Because these companies they have the chance to be like uh data and AI natives, and and the access to data and and the relationship you can have with uh how you design worse uh workflows, processes, uh products, services, uh how to work even on remediation plans for any uh new regulation which is implemented. So it's wonderful. I mean, it's it's it's it's a that's one of the best places to be in because uh you know, from the concept to the reality, there is almost no gap. Okay, yeah, so so that's that's very interesting. And and and now it's representing 40-ish percent of our revenue in the US. Wow, okay. And it's it's gonna be more and more, I think, in in the future, right? So and it's no offense to other industries, it's just the reality of their sure. When you look at the CapEx, right? So of this company is it's massive. And I know some of our peers um working there as well. And at the same time, we are very few consulting firms that are having a strong presence there. You can have a look at that. There is like no boutique consulting firm capable to really work with tech firms because you have to be global as well. Yep, yeah, uh, and immediately you have to be global, which is creating, by the way, some issues for pure US consultancies because uh most of them are very local ones, um, and they have difficulties to go abroad from the US, right? So that's also it's even more difficult for them more than for European consulting firms, because uh quite rapidly, even though you are just saying in two or three markets maximum, you have you become like rapidly a multi-domestic in Europe. It's not the case in the US, like the market is so big that uh I'm not saying that you have to you can be lazy, but there is uh the the appetite to go outside of the US when you are born in the US is limited. Yes.

AI’s Impact On Consulting Models

Joe 28:34

Yep, yeah, great, great. It's it there's there's a saying in the UK, probably in the States as well, about music bands that I you know I knew them before they were cool, and I think that's and and so you know when the band becomes cool, everyone says, Well, I knew them before they became cool. But I think that's a bit like Sia and AI. Um it's your your invest your heavy investment in tech and digital and data and AI um seem to precede. And and at the time, it seemed like I remember reading about consulting 4.0 and thinking this is risky, and then you know, three years later, everyone's jumping on the bandwagon. So I can see that put you at a at a great advantage, but I'm I'm also interested because for those of the for listeners that don't know, you're you're personally quite heavily interested in AI, both from a business and client perspective, but also for SEER, but also for society as well. And you've written a lot in this space. I'm interested, you know, we could we could talk about this all day, and I realize your time is precious, but I'm interested in how you see the developments in AI, especially over the last year or two, and likely to be the next year or two from now, impacting SIA SIA strategy. Um, you know, there's a lot of talk about the shape of consulting firms moving from a pyramid to a cigar, etc. Um how you think what what the big impacts you think will be on the consulting industry, I guess, internally as opposed to services for clients.

Build Vs Buy And M&A Playbook

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Yeah, so it's it's hard to make the difference like between like uh how we serve the clients and and how we are designing our capabilities. But and and as as you know, uh Joe, I mean, there are so many shades of like uh uh consulting firms, right? So and the impact would be uh a bit different, like if you are focusing on just pure strategy and market research, or if you are more like in a transformation space, or if you are more like exposed to IT implementation, right? So the the the level uh the level of impact can vary a lot depending on you know the positioning you have. Uh obviously the major consulting firms are in all spaces, right? So we're gonna uh be hit by all impacts, right? So and um and it's bringing some uh um it's it's a double effect, right? So you have like a cannibal cannibalization of some services that are existing, but also new opportunities that are also creating in the mix. And yeah, I think uh there is a question mark related to the how we are shaping the uh the organization. Is it more like a diamond or glass or whatever? I don't know. Uh what I know is um it's gonna be definitely uh related to be AI savvy and at all levels. So I don't think it's gonna be uh easy for like let's say partners, even partners, when I'm talking about models in our industry. Now, if you have to engage with clients on AI topics, if you have like no background in technology, no understanding of uh how it works, no personal experience in the mix, it's gonna be harder and harder to be credible, right? So to help the clients just to anticipate the uh the needs in terms of organization and all the stuff which is related to this. And um, so there is a very strong challenge for all consulting firms to upskill their the you know the management level. Okay, that's that's I think the primary challenge. More, I know there are tons of papers around like for the people just just fresh out of colleges, that it's gonna be hard for them to find a position in the consulting market. Yeah, there will be some changes, but it's also related to the capacity of universities to provide to uh the consulting firms uh uh you know uh junior people who are data and AI savvy at the very beginning, natively. So I think there will be some adjustments, but I'm not worried long term for the people who are just fresh out of college to find positions in the consulting market. I don't think it's it's there is a risk for this specific generation right now, okay, but I don't think long term it's gonna be uh an issue because it's just like the consulting firms that they have also to adjust their services to uh the new demand and new specifics in the demand. Um clearly like we are moving toward more like uh outcome-based engagements. Uh, we are also coming to uh it's not very uh shiny, but it's that's also the reality. There will be more and more managed services in what we do. Sure. Especially when it comes to up mounting consulting, it means like it's a new uh kind of um outsourcing at some point for some of our clients. Okay. And yeah, so there will be changes there, and and we have experienced uh some services in the mix. So typically, uh, I can share with you uh one or two examples. If you want to do like uh automated uh regulatory watch at a global scale for a bank, well, uh some mid-sized banks they have they don't have the capacity to uh uh to develop their own AI stack on that. They don't have the capacity to uh uh to go to a software platform because it's it's it's uh hybrid, it's requiring like uh a good knowledge of and a good understanding of uh the industry expertise. And at the same time, you need to automate some of the work, right? And and so that's yeah, that's part of the mountain consulting work. The fact is, we're gonna sell it in a very different manner, and and we start to see that it's gonna be more like a subscript subscription, like managed services. Yeah, but uh it's gonna be the same for market research. If you really think that uh all the market research will be done by uh robots by one or two years, you are exposed to uh potentially uh difficult uh as aftermath. I think if you are just thinking that with uh with uh just you know uh two or three prompts out of Chat GPT, you're gonna get the full report of uh of for market research for one business. I don't know. Yeah, it's an accelerator for sure, but can you just squeeze the human factor in the loop? I don't think so. Okay, yeah. So the consulting firms that would be equipped in the mix is gonna work. Uh, there is a risk also of cannibalization of sub-software platforms that are capable to be uh at the certain level of uh customization which is quite low. If it's low, it's gonna be uh it's gonna get at from the consulting market. If it's like 30-40 percent of the outcome, it's gonna stay within the consulting business. So it's just a matter of like where we position a cursor between automation and customized approach. Okay, but at the end of the day, for the consulting businesses, it's gonna be uh related to the digital assets you have and the distinctiveness you have in your own data sets. Okay, if you don't have if you are no if you have no data sets, no IP, so it means you just you just have to provide some you know some time to time and material to the clients, I don't think it's gonna work you know a lot uh over the next years, except if you are like a you know like a guru or if you have like a very, very strong background in one industry, but it uh it's not part of the consulting market I'm targeting, right? So, which is like a very, very specific niche uh in this market. But if you want like if you are talking about real consulting businesses, uh being owner of digital assets and data sets is gonna be like uh very, very uh important. And and and and fairly it requires like uh a lot of vision. Uh, we we we have been building like uh data sets for uh the um electricity markets for we started like in 2010 to build this data, okay. And it's impossible to have them. I I know just one competitor having exactly the same data sets. I will not mention them, but sure well, I can I can I can tell you it's it's Watson, right? So that's the only competitor we have. And and by the way, sometimes in even the people who are observers of the market should pay more attention to IBM and what what Watson is is doing in the mix, Watson X now, okay. Because and especially in the US, it's working pretty well. Okay. Uh and by the way, if you look at the market cap of like the major consulting uh businesses, like IBM is leading the is leading the race by far.

Joe 37:42

It's interesting, yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

Yeah, and it's it's it's it's it's not as well identified in Europe because IBM has has a very much stronger position in the US. But like Watson X is paying uh uh you know, we I pay I pay a lot of attention to what they do. Uh obviously they have been also inventing investing in RD like billions, so no other consulting firm did that. And and and some of it has been like uh wasted for sure. Uh but uh they still own some very, very strong IP.

Joe 38:15

I mean many years ago I worked with IBM helping them put together their technology people, who some of whom were Nobel Prize winners, with their consultants who wanted to sell things, and you get them talking, and it was a it's always been quite a challenge for them ensuring that their tech and their consulting business is tied up nicely.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Yeah, and it's it's it's exactly that. So the problem is in the end, the cultural factor, yeah, right, to have to have this hybrid model, and that's where we are trying to be better, right? So we uh uh we are very humble because given the uh the uh the impact of AI on all businesses, you have to stay humble. Uh you have to take a couple of bets as well to invest in some areas, to do some CapEx, to invest in some data sets, and some of them are not working, some of them are working, right? Right now we we have the description coming up around uh agenc e-commerce is a good, very strong uh uh topic for the next two years or three years, right? So in three years, we're gonna have to reinvent the whole e-commerce uh uh world that took like 20 years to build, okay, the previous one. And and now we have three years to rebuild and to reinvent e-commerce. Okay, so we are in the middle of this with a pure agentic approach, and to be successful to help our clients, we need to build data sets, or we need to partner with companies that are bringing some data sets in the mix. So, this approach of being like a more an open architecture, um, in in how you can become more distinctive in the mix is a challenge for uh from a cultural standpoint. All consulting businesses, including CR, right? So that's part of the cultural transformation journey we need to face with because it was easier in the past to be to, you know. I'm not saying that you are siloed, but it's just like it's easier to uh just work internally with your staff and you have you have the partner, the traditional model. It's it's I think it's an easy playbook, right? Now you have to invite to the table some partners giving an access to data sets, or because you cannot build all of them. It could be academia, it could be tech partners, it could be uh software platforms, it could be uh competitors sometimes, or companies in other spaces, right? So and and that's part of the evolution of the consulting market.

Joe 40:42

It it strikes me, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think SIA realized this and culturally has found it easier than the big firms, because at the big firms, even now, you still have partners who want to sell in, you know, 100 graduate MBAs with on on day rates, and they do quite nicely out of it. And and I think speaking to some of them and knowing some of them, they're struggling with the diversity of business models and revenue generation models that I see that SIA has been doing for some time.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Yeah, I think I think first of all, I think it's uh related uh related to the level of conviction of the CEO in the mix, it's also related to uh uh the entrepreneurship and and innovation mindset you have in the in the as at the core of the culture of the company, which is more our case, I think. And um uh there is some kind of a cliff factor also in the mix. So because yeah, if you ask me like today, it's it's still like uh say 75, 80, 85 percent of the business, which is still achieved in a very traditional way. Yeah, uh, we we are we are and but we know that there will be a cliff at some point, but as long as it works, it's fine. Okay, you can still continue, you can see potentially a decline in your in your book of business, and okay, you you accept that. So you you yeah, two years ago you were delivering like 100, then it's 90, now it's gonna be 20, 80, and it's it's still working, right? So it's not as good as it used to be. But the problem is at the same time, the market is uh it's it's changing, and and and and some people in the mix, uh, I think uh it depends also if you feel like from some partners who are if you feel like you have just five years left in the market, you can say, like I don't need to change anything, okay. Uh and and I don't think it's it's a bad trade-off, right? I'm not saying this, but it's just if you anticipate what's gonna happen for the next 10-15 years, you need to uh to be prepared for this kind of description, and that's what we are trying to do, right? So just to uh to stay ahead of the curve.

Capital, Blackstone, And Brand Scale

Joe 43:02

I've I've got one more theme I'd like I'd like to ask you, or in fact, one one and a half, but I'll cover the half later. So the theme is around mergers and acquisitions. Um, Sia has made you know some great acquisitions and and has added a lot of revenue from that. Um I have seen a lot of acquisitions more by private equity that haven't gone very well. Um you've clearly either got some secret source or you've got some great people working on your on your MA team, but you've made a lot of acquisitions, but you don't seem to have had the cultural disruption um and integration disruption, and you know, lots of people leaving because they're unhappy. So, what what has worked, what lessons have you learned to make the acquisition playbook work at SIA?

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Yeah, so uh first of all, you you uh you you mentioned the quality of the M ⁇ A team, uh, and it's it's really um it's it's it's a really uh important factor. So uh I would like to name uh Sandrine Caro. She's uh she has been running uh most of these operations for the last 10 years, and and she's really at the at the forefront of uh of running uh the next ones that are we are currently working on. Uh she's she's she has got like the the a major uh trust factor coming from Blackstone as well in the mix. So that's that's that's very interesting. Uh to go back to your point is first of all, what we did for the last 10 years or so um was to really uh to do uh what we call Bolton acquisitions, right? So it's we it's more like a tactical approach. So we are just targeting one pocket of expertise because that's the reality also of the market. Most of the companies that are on the market are recognized as very strong in one area, could be one market, one expertise, and or one capacity, whatever. But most of the time they are these companies are just in a niche player in one field of expertise. Okay, so what we propose to them is more like to uh to integrate our platform and to give to them the opportunity to have an access to more clients in the same area uh globally. Uh, we are giving to them the access to do just more. And and most of the acquisitions we made uh over the last 10 years uh have been successful because we have been helping them to transform the businesses they used to have. And and and when they are going to the market and they want to stay long term, it when they may we are making this the farmers are making this decision to move uh to another platform, is because they feel like they have the selling glass. And in reality, well, we have been reviewing uh tons of decks, and people are projecting uh business plans that are crazy, like uh to grow by I don't know, like uh the car girl is like uh 20 or whatever. But like the reality is for most of them, if I that's what I'm telling to the the the guys who are on the sell uh on the selling front, if you are but really believing this, you should not sell, okay? Because uh so if uh so there there should be something else, right? So in the mix. So sometimes people are getting close to retire and all the stuff, okay. But the reality is uh there is some kind of sailing glass, and what you are proposing to them is to uh uh to jump into a new world, having an access to more capabilities, and especially over the last five years, uh to come to the table with AI capabilities has been always a major change because most of the boutiques are not capable really to uh to develop AI capabilities. Okay, so that's the reality of the market, except if if you are a pure AI engineering firm, right? So in that case, it's possible, but otherwise, most of the um the like the niche players are not capable to do so. So, yeah, we did uh many acquisitions like this. Uh, I if I sometimes there is a also uh some kind of a gap between the the market perception and what how much it has been contributing to uh the revenue of the company as of today, the total uh the total revenue we we combine, we acquire like over the last 10 years, it's representing less than 15% of the total revenue. Okay, okay. So it's it's not so big. I mean, like in terms of um and and because uh the reality is we have been helping most of them to grow after the acquisition moment. Okay, so that's uh part of the reality. And and and there are multiple factors for us in the in the sense that we when we want to do an MA operation, I think in your deck, I don't know if you're gonna attach the deck to the podcast, but uh you identify most of the good reasons, right? So uh I would say some factors are more like um uh it's also a question between like can we build or buy? Okay, it's always the question for me because in terms of capital allocation, like in like in any other business, it's always this arbitrage between building or buying. So typically, when it comes to AI, I made the clear decision to build, and we did no acquisition in the space of uh buying for AI and data. Okay, uh, we have also another brand which is called uh CIX, C Experience. Yeah, uh in this context, uh it was more like a defense move because we were feeling that we were starting to lose some business because we are having no capacity on a creative front. And I'm sorry to say that, but I'm more an AI engineer by background. Yeah, so I was feeling like, can we build um this type of creative business or should we buy? And frankly, I was feeling like I'm not capable to build from scratch such a business. So we decided to make a couple of acquisitions in the mix to diversify our presence. And and I was referring just before to agent e-commerce and all this stuff, and I catch on like we are winning every week projects on agentique e-commerce. Well, okay, if we were not having this capability in our platform, we will not be in a position to address it. Okay, that's that's very clear. So it was a defense move. Uh, earlier also in this discussion, I was mentioning uh in the US market, um, sometimes you have like a barrier of entry, which is the MSA.

Joe 49:27

Okay, yep.

Cost Of Client Acquisition And Closing

SPEAKER_01 49:28

And it's always coming back to uh the decision of building or buying. If you say like, okay, I have three years ahead of me to uh to work with uh, I don't know, like uh Google or could be uh ExxonMobil or yeah, okay, you have three years. You can uh recruit like two or three partners to uh invest in this and to try to get an MSA to create the presence in the boardroom at the executive level and all the stuff, the regular stuff, right? But I can tell you it's gonna take two or three years. So, do you want to uh make this decision with the level of risk which is inherited from the uh you know onboarding people, which is also creating a cultural issue potentially? Uh, it's not so easy also to recruit people and to add people in your management team. We have today a bit more than 200 uh executives uh at here, right? So, and and it's not easy to add new executives in the mix and sometimes doing an acquisition, it can be easier because also you are these people are also coming with a book of business, okay. Depending on the markets, you have like the non-competitive uh factor, right? So, which is creating like and so I've never been a big fan of uh doing team lifts, so uh, which is common in the industry, right? So, yep, yep, uh, because you have uh potential uh legal uh issues, you have like um which is also slowing down the company, and so for me, uh coming back to the the arbitrage between like building or buying, it's also related to uh the acceleration we need to have. Uh, if we feel like it's super strategic for us, if we feel like we need to have like a stronger presence in this market or in this capability, yeah, it's it's it's part of the equation. Uh, and then you have to be a hybrid in because it's not because you are buying that then you have you then you have a sequence when you need to build, right? So, and that's what we have been doing. Typically in biotech, we acquire a company, I think it was like uh three years and a half ago in the US. It has been fantastic. We we we have been growing the revenue by 60-70 percent since with the acquisition.

Joe 51:30

Yeah, so Latham is it? Yeah, Latham biofund.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Pete is a fantastic guy, and um and but like when you are a regular consulting firm, like can you penetrate the biotech space? It's not so easy, it's not so easy uh by by building. So, yeah, on paper you can say like it's possible. So that's why we decided also to raise an equity check from Blackstone to accelerate uh and and to allocate more capital. We raised 250 million of euros, right? So uh one year ago, and and it's it's meant it's it's one for one factor. So it means like we have more the capacity to invest more than half a billion because we have like the the free cash flow coming from the operations, we have also senior debt in addition to the equity check. So frankly, uh it's more than one for one, right? So we have now the capacity to accelerate if we want and when we want, um, to uh you know to be part of the of what I'm calling like that, it's the the Davos Club. You know, we are in January and in a few days from now. Uh it's gonna be um the big conference in Davos, right? Uh, and you know, if you want to be a knowledge partner of Davos as a consulting firm, yes, you have to spend some money, right? You have to spend some dollars on it. And it's only accessible from the for the companies that are generating more than one billion a year, right? So that's pretty simple. That's basic math. And um, and so we want to be part of this club, okay? To be a global platform, you have you have to be part of the Davos Club. So so that's why we uh um it's some sometimes it's a factor which is ignored, is there is a big uh capex related to branding. Okay, yeah, it's a combination of scaling, capabilities, innovation, and all this stuff, but branding is very important. So it means that uh you know sometimes you need to invest uh at the global level, but also in each market where you are, and and to to reach a minimum of critical mass in those markets to have the brand awareness, the brand recognition in in those markets. So that's pretty much what why we are we have decided to go along with a financial partner.

Joe 53:40

That's that's really interesting because I um I don't know if you saw the the last slide on my deck. It asks my MBA students, what would you do? So you've got this you know, quarter of a billion pounds to grow. And most of them actually came back saying, Well, listen, I wouldn't, I wouldn't change anything. I'd keep going, keep making good acquisitions, keep investing in in tech, um, which I think is a good testament to what you're doing. I'm not saying they're experts, but they're they're they're good students. Um, but the branding bit is something that we haven't had much attention on, and it there is a different level once you get to that stage of where you need to be present and and and the cost, the investment that you need to make that happen.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

Yeah, because like branding is uh directly uh uh related to the cost of acquisition of a new client, because it's also a factor which is impossible to measure in our industry, but but I can tell you the uh the cost of acquisition in the B2B space, especially in the consulting world, is pretty high. Okay, and um and branding just basically the you know, the stronger is your platform, the lower is your cost of uh client acquisition.

Joe 54:50

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

And um, it's it's it's part of the equation too. So for us, yeah, typically going back to the US, now if we uh I can tell you like we we have been adding in our client portfolio right now in the US, we have like a bit more than 250 clients. Most of them are pretty big clients, right? So part of Fortune 500. So now uh we can spend less on acquisitions to get an MSA in place because we can run in parallel uh this and very painful and admin work of getting MSAs all the time, you know. Uh they are increasing like the the premium of uh insurance, like cyber security, like it's a big topic now. Um and and and and and now we can run in parallel all of this. So when you have the platform, the branding, it's reducing the cost of client acquisition, which is totally fundamental in our business and always ignored. Yep, yep. You never see you never see that in a balance sheet, you never see that in any deck for an MA, no one is coming with the cost of client acquisition. No, that's no, that's the key, that's the key point.

Joe 55:51

Really, I I will feed that back to my MBAs. So thank you. They won't believe we've had this conversation. Thank you. Um, Matthew, thank you so much for your time. Um, it's it's been a real pleasure listening to you, but also watching the growth and success of SIA over the last 20 years. So thank you so much for your time.

SPEAKER_01 56:13

Thank you, Joe, for uh having me and uh happy to continue uh this conversation like uh maybe in in a couple of years from now. And uh I'm sure we're gonna have uh tons of this topics to discuss.

Joe 56:23

That would be amazing. Thank you. Bye bye.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Bye bye.