NAHRP #2 The Compliance Wave (and How Not to Drown in It)

April is bringing a wave of HR changes—and if you’re an employer, it can feel like you’re about to be hit by all of them at once.

In this episode of Not Another HR Podcast, Alastair (Founder at EZHR) and Rachel (Senior Associate at Horsfield Menzies) break down what actually matters, what’s just noise, and where businesses should focus their time.

From statutory sick pay changes and National Minimum Wage increases to flexible working updates, trade union rights, and the looming Fair Work Agency—this is your straight-talking guide to staying compliant without losing your mind.

They also get into:

Why most employers are overthinking policy updates
The real risk behind “small tweaks” to employment law
Whether the new youth employment incentives actually work
Why homeworking risk assessments are back on the radar
And how to talk to your SLT about all of this without causing panic

As always—this is opinion, not advice. But it might just save you a headache (or a tribunal).

👉 Download the April HR Cheat Sheet: The EMPLOYMENT RIGHTS ACT CHEAT SHEET — EZHR | Making HR Really Easy

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

You're joking, not another one! Hello and welcome to the uh Not Another HR podcast. Um I think in terms of feedback, welcome again.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

Uh it was with myself, Alistair Swindlehurst from Easy HR and I'm Rachel Rigg, I'm an employment solicitor at Horsefield Menzies.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

I think on reflection from the last one, we realised actually we probably didn't introduce ourselves in our discussion. Obviously, you know what I mean? We are you are living life on the edge with ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

That's it. Yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Oh, completely. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Rock and roll over here.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

I'm I'm impressed with actually which we got ourselves organised, or say I've got us I've got us organised. I think the difference is that you bring all the gear and all the setup, and I've just finally done my bacon sandwiches and coffee, so yeah, yeah, but I think this is the bit where it's this is years of playing around with media stuff, and I've somehow found myself with a mini kind of home studio as as a consequence.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

I wish you guys could see the setup, it's pretty impressive.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

It's it's it's yes, it's something. What that something is is is is different. I think we we had some really great feedback from the last one. I think there's I think the and we're really pleased in terms of how it's landed and we want to kind of keep it in that vein and doing that. I think as ever with this is that the I this is um a discussion, an opinion, not a vice. Hastings to add that, so please um so please listen to us, but don't listen to us in the same breath. Um the other point as well with this, I think, is that we're gonna try and get this out of it every couple of weeks, probably two to three weeks-ish. Um I know we can't probably record for another three weeks after this, just because Easter and you've got things on that you need to do professional stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Yeah, we're pretty busy at the minute, but you know, it should be alright. Life begins again in April.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Apparently, yeah, yeah. And yeah, I don't envy you for the next few weeks, to be fair. Um, and then it's kind of I think for us it's just trying to keep up track. And also I think it's conscious that like HR without actually kind of doing day and what we're doing here, um, isn't necessarily that um i w we've got a sort of a high peak at the minute, but yeah, it it's the bit where I I used to do regular updates. I'll be writing stuff at the time going like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

It should calm down again, it should get to a place where things are stable. That it's been so volatile for the last three years, I'd say, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Yeah, but I that's the instrument because I think it I think there was like a um like a flow of things, so there was a lot more kind of family-friendly stuff that was coming through. There was things where you get increased right visit out workers, and it and it was trying to put stability kind of where things were being.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

It's just a tweak, isn't it? It's always it's not been a complete overhaul, it's been drip feeding a little bit of oh, just do that a little bit differently.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

And now you're faced with the wall of compliance requirements.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Yeah, like I I was I was I did a presentation the other the other last week. Like, yeah, last week. And I wanted certainly kind of I wanted to put like a big huna wave on because honestly, because that that's I think that that is the big issue at the moment, is that it feels overwhelming because you look at kind of the kind of the pile of stuff that's coming through, and you start you're like, whoo!

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Yeah, I mean this is probably the time to talk about what's coming in in April, and I'm not at a point where I know this all off the top of my head, so I'm absolutely going to refer to what I'm calling the cheat sheet, which um Alice is going to be incredibly technical and put a link in our in our podcast too.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yes, so I'll put a link in the podcast on the YouTube page, uh on the any social media posts, and we'll put that as a page on our website. So again, if anyone needs to pick it up, they can go and absolutely grab that.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

But this cheat sheet is effectively the changes that are coming in, and the first thing people really need to do is update policies, right? Yes. As in, most of the changes that are coming in in April are small lines of making sure that your payroll team know that statutory sick pays change and making sure that your sick policy reflects it or any contracts reflect those changes. So the list of things we've got at the minute that you need to check, disciplinary policies coming up to shorter service. Does your disciplinary policy refer to people having two years service or not?

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Good show, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Whistleblowing policies when they eventually bring in um sexual harassment as a specific example of whistleblowing.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

So just on that, because we we've we've talked a lot about this in terms of when do you actually do that?

SPEAKER_03 4:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Because and it is your view from a legal perspective, is that we do it in April rather than the 6th of April. Fuck.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Um taking all reasonable steps to prevent harassment comes in from October 2026. So most people probably have an anti-bullying, anti-sexual harassment policy. I love it when people call it a sexual harassment policy, like that's something that we're like, you must be doing this.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Yeah, yeah. Or it's the bit where it's like, oh any other harassment's fine, but sexual. Terrible.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

But yeah, so making sure that that outlines things, changes you're making, risk assessments that you're carrying out, what steps you take to prevent harassment, etc.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 5:12

And again, that comes in as an obligation from October this year, but we get no guidance on what all reasonable steps are until the following.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

And I think that's the bit with I think that's I think there are people that are keen to look at that now. But I I think that's the bit where you've got to pause for a second and actually go, I know that you want to get everything done now and and be tidy and be organised.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

You've got to properly think about that.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Yeah, and and it's it's what those steps are. And I think until you get the guidance, it's just kind of kill your jets a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

There's a six-month intervening period where in reality having that nailed down isn't going to massively change anything for you because you won't know what to nail down until that comes in.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

But I I but with that, I also still think that that will be a stick for people to beat you with 100%. It within litigation. Yeah. In in the same way that um menopause, certainly kind of two years ago for us, in a number of settlement agreements that we were discussing at the time, was coming up as an indirect indirect sex. It was either coming up as a that it was either being presented as a um presented characteristic or indirect sex discrimination. Which actually I could I understood the indirect sex discrimination, but a few people to sort of say like, I get the point of getting to, but it's not a presenter characteristic. But I think this will be a this will this will still be a stick.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

Absolutely. Um sidebar, and we have to make sure that we don't go down this rabbit hole too far. Have you had any clear like individuals claiming about the male menopause yet?

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Not yet.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

A client raised this with us when we were doing training this week and they said that they're seeing an increase in in Ben bringing concerns internally to say, you know, there is a deterioration of testosterone that has side effects to it. And so, you know. So watch this space. Let us know if that's something you're coming up against. Um not to give anyone any ideas, but no, no, um no.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Uh we've that's not we've we've not had that conversation. Although I wouldn't be given given the Louis Thoreau documentary written true that I haven't watched. I d I feel like I've watched it through other people's LinkedIn posts.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Um I would not be surprised in terms of uh yeah, what about me? Um I've got my own menopause. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

Um other policies to update, so flexible working, there's consultation and measures at the moment, but um changes to make sure that relying on reasons that you're refusing a flexible working request are reasonable from 2027, so keep an eye on your flexible working policy. Parental leave, paternity leave, shared parental leave, there's changes to eligibility.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

When those kind of rights can come in. The fact that taking shared parental leave now doesn't impact your ability to take paternity leave. Just make sure that your policies are up to date that reflect those.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

And that's leave, not pay. Leave not pay. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

Yeah. So although there's an earlier entitlement to be able to take that time off, it's not at a paid rate. It doesn't have a statutory pay element until you hit that criteria, that threshold. Um okay, bereavement leave. So um the changes about if someone there's currently no statutory right to bereavement leave at all. It's going to be coming in but from October 2026 this year. So keep an eye on your existing leave policies and you know what you do on a discretionary basis. Big one for April, sick bay.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Yeah. But again, I think that's the simplest one. But I actually think it's the I think most people get the day one, but they're a mover of the lower earning limits, the thing that's gonna catch people out.

SPEAKER_03 8:47

It's so hard to figure out at that point as well, about how you're proportioning that, you know, across qualifying working days. If you're a retailer and people can work seven days a week, but they don't often work the same days, it's an absolute minefield. But you know, that's when it becomes a bit off my desk and into a sort of it does.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

It's just it's gonna be like holiday pay to be fair.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

It's gonna be like holiday pay.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:09

Amazing that all of these things are changing and yet no guidance whatsoever on how holiday pay should work.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

I was gonna say I was gonna say holiday pay is just an existential crisis in itself, to be fair, but anyway.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

I d I'm amazed that they didn't tackle that. And then um mandatory reporting on gender equality and supporting employees through the menopause. Um it goes voluntary from 6th of April 2026, but it becomes mandatory from 2027 for employees with more than 250 employees.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

And that's just piggybacking on the back of the um the gender pay stuff. So basically you're if you're in that space at this moment in time, you need to be doing that. The other thing I noticed in that is is about contractors as well. So actually, if you've got uh workers in the business, it's making sure that you're doing your uh report to show the breakdown of male versus female in that space. Um but even I think with the menopause the menopause. I was gonna say the menopause. Um I think there's a whole interesting point in around uh what happens with um if you're under 250 and you've not got an action plan for people who are experiencing menopause symptoms or per or who are perimenopausal as well, not the male menopause. Um why you've not got that in place, and I think that's falling in some of the HSC kind of anxiety, stress-related disorders, taking that seriously. Are you just on that claim-wise, with menopause-related sort of indirect sex discrimination claims? Yeah. I presume you're seeing an increase on that in the minute.

SPEAKER_03 10:49

It's interesting, it's because it hits you're right, regardless of action plans and requirements, etc., it hits across all different factors or protected characteristics, right? Because if it's enough of a medical issue that's impacting your day to day, it could be a disability.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

It could be, you know, it's affecting women in this situation, so it could be the it's based on sex and it could be based on age. So no matter what way you cut it, dealing in supporting employees going through the menopause is something that's going to hit those brackets. So but incredibly, I'm seeing more sex harassment cases than I am seeing, you know, people who are saying that I've had this interaction, I didn't like it, and I think it's because I'm a woman. Really? But not so much specifically on menopause. But I suppose it depends on the demographic of client portfolio.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

So there might be people that are seeing a huge increase in it.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Because when we spoke last time and we took you were saying how you'd seen you were seeing quite a few sexual harassment cases, and I was like, oh, and I had a chat with Tom, Tom who works for me about this. And I was like thinking, well, actually, I think probably again with our type of business, because we're s you're dealing with larger organisations than than we are. I think the person is probably sexually harassing, or would typically if you're in a smaller organisation and you sexually harass, yeah, you know that if you sexually harass uh if you raise a concern about it, that's probably curtains for you.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

In in that situation. So actually the issue is kind of I don't think the the policy will resolve the situation. It will in larger organisations, yeah. But I I think it it's the how you do it in in on those smaller spaces.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

But also, again, like you're saying, those bigger organizations have better resources to be able to upskill managers about uh supporting people in the menopause already. So maybe it's it's something that smaller employers are more likely to inadvertently fall foul of. You know, when we were talking about managers today are expected to be curious, expected to be proactive, expected to drive things, and fall foul of not knowing everything that they could possibly think of that could come up that they don't understand or know about.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

Whereas bigger organisations can train on those things, upskill, have organizational groups about support, etc.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

No, and I think and I I actually think it's not the the small business is generally pretty good to be fair, because I would say you because you're in such a small group.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

It's like a family, isn't it? You get to know each other better. That's the F-word.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

It's it's I find that triggering. Uh but it it's the it's I think it's those like 50-ish heads where you're you kind of there is a little space for people to hide in what they do and then it's actually things can happen.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

And you can assert I think it's house having the ability to assert power in those situations. But I think, yeah, anyway, going back to the original point, I think there is a I would still I would still be encouraging people to do to have a plan for menopause. I don't think it needs to be particularly over the top.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

No.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

I think it's just if someone if someone comes to you, it's the same, right? This is how not specifically these are the actions that we will take in terms of well well but it's the how are you going to be super curious to understand what's yeah what's going on?

SPEAKER_03 14:10

Yeah, yeah. How are you going to support this person that's going through something? Sounds bloody awful. I'm not looking forward to it, but you know, this is one of those things, like it is it's if if you've noticed that shift in someone, it's that manager being able to say something's a bit different about you know you and things like you. And is there something going on about that before having to launch into anything?

SPEAKER_00 14:35

No, no, but but I think that's the but and I think it's the bit where having a conversation we've just gone, are you okay? Yeah. Because actually that that's what people don't do. And it's the are you okay because actually what I'm seeing is Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

And I think that's that's the scary bit is the getting into the conversation.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

You don't know what that's going to uncover, and people don't want to do it, it's overstepping a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

But no, no, because people go on, don't don't don't tell me something's wrong and just tell me everything's alright. Just tell me everything's alright. But the uh the the um oh god I'm doing the losing track at track already. Um but I think that's the I think if you don't do that, that is where you're gonna increasingly see issues come up.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

It's one of those things that's really easy to put that support in place and have that curiosity, and if you are someone who is missing the boat on that, it's it's easy to build build that case, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yeah, because uh and and I think that's the bit where this is I th the we've been waiting for a change on menopause. There is definitely there's been more obligations, and this is definitely the one in my mind, and I think that if you don't take it seriously now, yeah, you you are you're gonna find yourself getting short shrift, yeah. Basically moving forward. Yeah, yeah. So I think it's it's one so it's one definitely one to think about.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

Definitely, you know. So April changes, other things in the works, national minimum wage.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Yeah. I was gonna say hold that thought. Held. I'll be back in a second. Well, how's that thought?

SPEAKER_03 16:19

Can I unhold it now?

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yes, you can.

SPEAKER_03 16:21

Okay. National minimum wage.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

Changes coming in.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 16:26

Biggest increase for younger earners. What, eight percent?

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Yes. I think it's eleven per cent for the younger earners.

SPEAKER_03 16:34

Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

I think it's the same.

SPEAKER_03 16:36

This is when we have to actually go and look at a note.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think the whole minimum wage thing in the minute is is is in a really interesting position in terms of what it means for businesses. I think it's the the unintended consequences. I think I said it on here last time. It was like we I was at an event before Christmas and the increase just national to national minimum wage was a problem. Well not a problem, but it was now giving people the business case to actually look at automation.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

AI in someone's warehouse in space, which they didn't it the numbers didn't make sense before. Um I g there there is the point of like, yes, people it needs to keep track with kind of the cost of living as well, and there's things like that. But I think the because national minimum wage is increasing at the rate it is, or and then you take into account the kind of the real living wage as well that people do. Like we know I know a number of people at the minute that are having serious consid conversations about we can't keep trap with the real living wage. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

Well, what's really difficult about national minimum wage is a concept, and it's you know, for the avoidance of any doubt whatsoever, I'm not saying that I disagree with it, but when you apply it as an hourly rate on the basis that that then means that someone can achieve a living wage, it doesn't work operationally in that way. You don't know how many shifts someone's doing, or do you know what I mean? Like it's it's uh it's broken down on such a granular level. Well, really, what we're talking about for for people being able to survive on this amount of money is being able to do enough hours then that actually means it amounts to a living wage. Yes. If you see what I mean, rather than picking up the odd shift or etc. Um, so just in terms of those changes, so 18 to 21 year olds, 18 to 20 year olds go to £10.85 an hour.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:28

And anyone over £21 gets £12.71. Yeah. But that's um been dressed up as this, we're removing this discriminatory age like branding, but we're going to still have one.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

But but but uh but then there was the bit where I think the government said to the Law Pay Commission, you know, we're gonna step away from this, they've got to have the have the freedom of discretion to manage it as as they see fit, which I thought they had before, but they might not.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Um and I I think there's a bit where I think in the next round we're gonna see that um 18 to 20 18 to 21 group go, yeah, and there will just be the national minimum wage.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

And it will be past 18, this is what you get. And I I think there is for me that the scary thing is what it means for younger people entering the workplace, having access, because we we've got a few people sort of pushing back at the minute saying it felt like it made sense before with the a specific could you get someone that was inexperienced, that was bringing the way bringing the way through.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

They could bring massive enthusiasm, that's what they did. And most to be fair, most people pay above it, but it could meant that but you could keep it below the national the the kind of the 21 plus national minimum wage. And where they're getting to now is they're going, uh do I do I pay national minimum wage? Do I get someone more experienced and actually I could get better value per hour, or do I get someone inexperienced?

SPEAKER_02 20:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

And I I think there is gonna be, I think that I don't know if it's a crisis at the minute, but there is a real issue in terms of post-18s getting access to work. I think that's gonna compound an issue. I think I think employees will be less inclined to take 18 uh 18 plus, and it's how do you give people that step into the workplace as well? It's but I I think the other part of this as well is the um the youth grant that's that's been uh three grand. Which isn't gonna touch us touch aside, let's let's be honest. You know what I mean? It's like so first of all, this is like the atypical um announcement bells and whistles, yeah. Aren't we amazing, we're gonna give you £3,000, people. One £3,000 probably pays that person for two months, which in the grand scheme of things isn't a huge amount.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Like I've I've no I've seen MMU do schemes where it's they give you like if you give someone employment for 12 months, they'll pay you like two and a half grand. And that that was a way of giving positive outcomes to leavers.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

Right. All feeds back into statistics. Damn damn lies and statistics.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yeah. Um and I and there's no detail in around the scheme.

SPEAKER_03 21:25

No.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

So the the devil is always in the in the detail. I would I would I would have serious cons they're gonna run trials in I think London, Greater Manchester, I can't remember there's about three or four other places. I was I went great Manchester, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

I don't need to read the rest of the list.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Manchester. Um the the other part of that is um what happen what happens next with this? Because actually, does this become a national thing? Are they gonna change it, or is this just gonna be another thing that either we do a little Bit of a trial on it and some and then nothing really happens with it.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

I think the other thing is that it's got the ability to sound like something you want to sign up to and then have a catch or something that changes or something down the line that means that it doesn't pay off quite the way that you think it will.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

No.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

But look, I mean there is this issue of young people getting access to the workplace. If this makes a difference, it makes a difference. I don't know whether it's really what you want to target on this, but you know, I just I just I just think I think it's a mess.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

I think the whole youth pay and sort of getting pi young people in the workplace is a mess. I don't think it's improving anymore. I think I think people are getting turned off by it. I think that we're gonna we're gonna see less people be inclined to do it. Yeah. And also it's the the other part of it is is apprenticeships as well. So like we're s we are seeing more people that are looking at apprenticeships as an alternative to grads because they feel that the the apprentices they get through are probably more motivated and Yeah, it's a really interesting one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 23:02

Because it's big commitment. It's you know, when you take a legal apprentice, it's six years to be turned out, but you can qualify earlier and then you've got six years of experience in the field. It's an absolute like game changer, but you are also committing to a whole career at 18 that you do not know.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

But I don't I don't think that's any different because it like I know people that generally speaking who've done law, that did law that read law at university, that was kind of what they were doing.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

I think the other bit, and uh speaking about this as a parent, you look at and you think you see people leaving like hundred grands worth of debt now, and you kind of go like you can earn as you go.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

No debt. Yeah, you need to paid for.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Yeah. And actually, to your point, you've got six years worth of experience, and it's probably you've got a nice space to do with it. Because I think I think I think that route is uh if we if you can make it work and they constructure it, yeah. I think um inadvertently we've ended up in a really good space with it, but it it needs to it needs to get a bit more organised.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

It's a great avenue, and it I really can see the impact it's having. There's been more apprentices in the in the workplace for I mean the trend's just constantly up, isn't it? But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Yeah. But but I think that's the but I also think that's kind of if you're gonna do that, there's also that middle ground. I think it that's where I think they need to focus, and it's not about pay and it's not about it's not about £3,000. It's about meaningful processes.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

Long-term career opportunity, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Yeah, and and it's it's almost gone back to old school apprenticeship process where you kind of go, actually, I can see that I can see that way going forward.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

Yeah, but you say that, but then people aren't careers are changing, right? So this is you know, this idea of a career ladder and that you work your way up it. Gen Z is saying, no, thank you. I'm gonna have like a plethora of qualifications across the board and move from industry to industry from role to role. I've got no interest in being bedded in in one place and one thing and working up it. So it might be something that becomes, you know, not that appealing.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

But I I I I completely agree and completely disagree in the same breath because I think there is a pick a lane, Alissa. Too many opinions, too many opinions.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

A lot happening at once.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

I can I c I can I can be here and here at the same time. No, it's the um there is a in my experiences like anything's teachable and you want people the right actually and the right ethos. And I think it's the bit where and again it's looking at what you get out of the apprenticeship because again it's the there is developing skills but it's giving people that life a driving licence and actually th the the the point of difference with the apprenticeship apprentices that I I see clients talk about is not about technical skill but it's about attitude and aptitude and openness.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

And it's developing that. So to your point is that yes, you may flip around and it's not on this one career ladder, but if you give people generally a good base and you get and you give people actually the you know the openness and actually the the way actually I want I want to develop and I want to drive things forward, yeah. And that's in encouraging those personal aspects, you can change and you can develop. And and it and it doesn't stop you from moving around and and and doing different things.

SPEAKER_03 26:25

But yeah, you're right. I mean, but this is it, three grand's not gonna get you there, it's the apprenticeship scheme.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Yeah, yeah, it it it's more root and branch, which is just not a popular opinion.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

Yeah. Um so national m generally bringing that national minimum wage change is just gonna make I mean everyone's already been hit with national insurance increases. Yep. We talked last time about how more expensive it is to run a business, even energy costs, etc. I mean, there was a restaurant near me that was had energy bills of 17 grand a month, like insane. And so combining that with having to find the money for this extra increase, I mean look, it increases every year, but not at this rate, at this pace, getting rid of that banding.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

And it compounds issues. I think the other thing is is that some people suggested that kind of you didn't get rid of your younger workers because of the cost, and it's like, well, that's not gonna happen because of the fact that um you've still got to replace them with people at the full national minimum wage, and when you get rid of an experienced person to do that, that's just balmy. Yeah. To be fair. I think what it s I think what it does is it changes the recruitment profile. And I think that you will and I think because of the need to do more to do more with the same or more with less. Yes, I think that changes your profile in terms of saying I can't take a risk on someone who's inexperienced.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

But also, I mean this applies as well across the board. All of these changes that are being brought in through the Employment Rights Act, consultation on restrictive covenants, is all designed at trying to make the market more flexible, recognising that people who leave jobs tend to negotiate better terms somewhere else, not on a national minimum wage front, but um there is a general driver to try and include increase flexibility. But all that's really happening as the unintended consequence is that recruitment is becoming more risky, retention is becoming a concern. How you keep people in the business and try and upskill them rather than have to, you know, take your chances on the market if someone's got unfair dismissal rights in six months.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Well, not no one's talking to w when we were probably talking to people about retention six months um two, three years ago, and it's like, how do we keep people in the business?

SPEAKER_02 28:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

I c I'm not looking at anyone at the minute and going, you know what I mean, got a real problem, got a real problem in terms of uh sta them staying in the business. They're looking forward and going, how do I get how do I get them out?

SPEAKER_03 28:42

And that's it, and like tying on what we were saying in our our last episode, where it was, you know, people are staying and being grumpier about it than moving. There does seem seem to be a real need to shift things in the market, but what we're doing is entrenching those positions rather than actually increasing that movement.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

But only the letters get in charge, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 29:02

I don't know what our political party would even be called. Not another political party.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

It's a messing who's got two thumbs and has the best I uh best ideas ever, this guy. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 29:16

But no, so it's it's it's an interesting time where look, we'll just have to see how this um levels out and whether this youth grant's gonna make any changes, but we'll see.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Just other things that have been in the news, which is equally as dull, but I think probably quite quite quite important. Homeworkers.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

Homeworkers. Homeworkers.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Um the uh with I think it was HC came out and said they're gonna take specific interest theme out of homeworkers who have not been properly risk assessed.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

Well, i this is interesting, isn't it? Because obviously COVID, everyone worked from home. There was a couple of forms that went out from a few people being like Is this safe? Are you alright? But you had no choice, right? So people just went home and drove.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 29:59

And now employers are having to play catch-up to make things right.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Yeah, and I would say that we we deal with people and and you go, okay, like you do do home risk assessments, and there is a kind of Of course, yes. And you kind of sit there going, no, we're not completely convinced.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

In COVID for me, we were a hundred percent in the office before COVID and um at my previous firm, and when I had to start working from home, I was living in this tiny flat, I had to fold a desk out, and it would double does a TV stand, it's a little little flat. Yeah. Fold a desk out, and then I had a fold-out chair that sat at it. It was completely like my back was ruined, but we had no choice, there was nowhere else to do it, and I was you know, in this little shoebox, my first like time living on my own. And you do just think there'll be so many people in a situation of like a haphazard pulled together environment, or just you know, swizzling sat on the sofa.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

No, no, because we we we had a we had a client during COVID that was really good. Actually, kind of they had a decent office footprint, but they could spread people out. And their point was like they came across a number of people that were working off uh like ironing boards to work.

SPEAKER_03 31:11

Standing desk, it's great.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

That isn't I don't think ergonomically that kind of works at the right height for certain people. You know what I mean? I think f I would I would have problems.

SPEAKER_03 31:22

Um You might need two ironing boards.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

But it probably wouldn't be two ironing boards to be fair. On some yellow pages.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

Careful what you wish for for Christmas.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

It's cost savings.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

But no, and then look, I I don't know, are you seeing this as well where employers are wanting people back in the office? Like this is a shift that's coming.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

I I'd say that's probably calmed down a touch. We probably saw that about twelve months ago.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

But there is still and I think there is a there is a movement on that. I still but I I also think there's the where they want people in, it's the it's the Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday crowd.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

Yeah. They they want We won't use the abbreviation.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

No no no It's and it's the I think that is um that's very that's accepted, and I think I think that's the new norm, which is like Monday, Friday's fill your boots, work from home, it's generally calls.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

But be in the office Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Um But you uh but I think people think because they're in three days a week and it's like homework, it's not really homeworking, it's just like you're just working from home, which is the same difference. Yeah. We'll give you a couple of dual screens just to make sure it's easier, but when then not doing the Yeah, and then like off you pop. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:32

You let us know. Do you need anything?

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Yeah, and I think I think I think there's a there's a within that there is a so my kind of keenness on this and probably to raise it is the fact that HSC have come out and said this no, I think is is not should not be underestimated.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

I think because that is a an issue at this moment in time. The other part of this is also about with the fair work agency as well. And I think with um I've seen a little bit more kind of coming out in the last week or two about kind of the fair work is agency and people kind of having that sense of what it might be. Yeah. And I think it's exactly what we talked about before. I do wonder whether we'll start to see some of the health and safety elements get captured under the Fair Work Agency.

SPEAKER_03 33:15

It's interesting, isn't it? Because the access the agency will have and the breadth of what they can cover, um, they're gonna be nosing around places and who knows what they're gonna start taking issue with, really.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

But I I my impression is that it in the same way that from a national minimum wage breach perspective, they've got to pretty much open the doors to you and give you the inform and you could provide the information. Yeah, it's an extension of that. Because I was I was gonna bring in my my my letter from uh uh DWP about um we're gonna be contacting anyone that works for you. Because I did get one, I was very proud when I got that. Congratulations. I felt like a proper employer at a point. I was like, oh wow. Um but it's that bit where I think that that I think I actually the more I look at this, I think the national minimum wage stuff has had a real impact.

SPEAKER_02 34:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

And the people that it's caught out is really caught out.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

And I think people aren't paying enough attention to this, but I think if if anything that's going to catch people out, it will be this. And that's the bit where it is the HC stuff, but you've also got to be on top of like making sure people are taking leave, you're paying holiday pay correctly, um there are always kind of little funny deals that you Which is a minefield when holiday pay changes every ten minutes in the in case law anyway.

SPEAKER_03 34:30

So, you know, it's almost like a a money-making government scheme where it could be like, we'll keep changing the rules in the courts and then we'll just be ready to catch you out the next day.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Yeah, but then I I also think as well is that there's a there's a there's some fundamentals that people don't follow.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

And you just kind of look at it and go like, oh for God's sake, you know what I mean? It's like and and people and I think with all the pressure stuff, people still try and be too cute about things. And they'll like I call things I I refer to the duck test. The duck test. So people the way I describe it, if it duck, if it walks like a duck, waddles like a duck, uh quacks like a duck, it ain't a swan. And there's a few things where a client will go, like, oh, look at this, it's certainly not this situation, and I'll go, but it is. I said, because if you look at all the factors around it, it's like and I've I generally use that around deemed employment, for example, in IR 35, and I've like going, people got like going, but it's not an employee.

SPEAKER_03 35:28

It's like, look, here's a consultancy agreement that we drafted and told them they had to sign. And it's like, so your terms that you drafted, so they're not in control at all, you're in control. It's like, yeah, these are our consultancy terms. I'm like, yeah, you're dictating everything. Sounds like employment.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

But and they're exclusively required to work for you. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:50

Can't possibly substitute and it's indefinite, goes on forever. But on the holiday pay point, um, seeing a real increase in people still not really understanding about average holiday pay being included. You know, um average earnings for people who might have commission, who might have other revenue streams that um add up as their remuneration package, and historical claims coming out about that, where 30 employees get together, they've had like two pounds a year deducted, but they want to go all the way back. But that's the sort of thing the fair work agency is gonna eat up.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Yeah, and because that is that's great wor a great world for them to kind of come out and go, look at what we're doing. And all you need is a couple of employers that you can you can you can really go at, and that will all change and and that will be like, he, look at it we're doing it, we're doing it right.

SPEAKER_03 36:39

It's so effective.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Yeah. And that that to me is that is the kind of the scary merry bit of it.

SPEAKER_03 36:44

And it is definitely Time's tighten up, isn't it, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Yeah. I think it's I think it's the the bit where it sounds uh it sounds like fear-mongering and I hate this in me. It's the because I want to be like, it will all be fine.

SPEAKER_03 37:00

It will. It's look they're in reality, in the same way that national minimum wage um enforcement takes this approach, HMRC, they will pick big examples to run at first. So HMRC loves to, with national minimum wage enforcement, go after big players, make examples, publish them in lists to say, look how naughty, terrible, terrible. And that's part of the enforcement strategy, right? Yep. And so I'm imagining the Fair Work Agency will be much the same. Go after your big example targets in the hope that you make enough noise about it that people use that to buckle up their ideas.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Yeah. But I th and I and I think it will develop, but I think it's the don't underestimate underestimate this, because I I I think it's kind of passive.

SPEAKER_03 37:44

Just have a little look at what you're doing, you know? Just keep have a little use this opportunity with a fresh pair of eyes to keep an eye on whether you are doing things the way that you should be. Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

No, no, and and it's uh one thing I used to sort of say about people, I used to say people is like, don't be a D head under yeah years ago.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

We've not sworn yet, there's still time.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

There is, I'm I'm I'm desperately trying not to swear this time because I have to put an explicit rating. I am, I feel I feel like I deserve a little badge and everything.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

Um But yeah, look, watch this space. I think until we really see the agency up and running, we're not really going to be able to understand how it's going to work on that basis.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

No.

SPEAKER_03 38:22

But that's what I'm expecting at the minute.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

So, agenda.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

Agenda.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

We had we well, can it is it an agenda? We do we do um what else do we say we'd do today? I'm trying to find the email that sent to you today.

SPEAKER_03 38:36

Um Do you want me to consult my list?

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Let's consult the list.

SPEAKER_03 38:40

Um this is my whole contribution is that I bring bacon sandwiches and coffee and I write down what you tell me what we're going to talk about. Um national minimum wage, April changes, we've covered um home workers, right, real-world impact of the employment rights bill.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

I think we kind of covered that off a bit. And then because that we did ask people to kind of give us a shout and sort of any questions. That question came from Tim from Wilmslow. Um, Tim, you know who you are. Uh does great bikes, velo edge, good guy.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Um, but one of the other questions we got was about the duty to inform people about their right to join a trade union.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

Yes. Exciting times.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

Who did this come from?

SPEAKER_00 39:24

This came from Leah in Taunton.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Thanks, Leah in Taunton.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Yes. Uh I feel like we need our own sort of post bag section.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

Um we could go the full podcast route where we get people to pay and subscribe so we shout them out. So, you know, watch a space. Go a Patreon. That was a freebie.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Go a Patreon.

SPEAKER_03 39:42

Um but look, I think um the thing that we're advising people to do, most people remember the April 2020 changes where you had to put a bunch of things in employment contracts that just were one line that said things like there's no collective agreements in place. We're doing the same thing where we just put a line in at the bottom of an employment contract that says you have a right to join a trade union.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Yeah. And I think I I think that's either off a letter contract, I think in the same way that you advise someone that you'd be doing right to work checks. It kind of goes in the same way.

SPEAKER_03 40:11

That's going to be part of a tick box exercise where you can just demonstrate somewhere that you have done that.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

The only other thing that we are we've spoken to people about doing is actually having like a one-page policy in around recognition and consultation.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

And that is saying that you will um obviously you will inform consult employees appropriately based on the issues that come up and you'll follow the statute regulations, don't be over prescriptive in what you do, if that you reach the threshold for recognition that you'll engage with the process in the way that you that you should do.

SPEAKER_03 40:45

And it's not a bad exercise, is it, to take the time to understand what your obligations are. You know, setting a policy out is something that can help you just as much as your employees.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Completely. But but I think what we kind of came to it because uh a client was tendering for some work and actually they needed a policy along those lines. We were like, actually that and actually we kind of went with all the changes that are coming in. If you do find yourself in a situation where someone's going, they were actively kind of rallying against a union or kind of recognition of some description. Yeah, it's the um I think having that kind of goes, well actually not, we did consider it. And we and we've we've always been very open to it, and we've always said, you know, our position has always been that we'll follow what we need to do. Yeah. It's not to get out of jail cow, but it it it it shows thought and consideration.

SPEAKER_03 41:32

A lot of our clients who aren't currently don't have recognised trade unions, are a bit not nervous, but more um, they're potentially workforces where you could see it coming in the future where people would want to unionise. And one of the other things you can do, whether it's through a policy like that or otherwise, a lot of the reasons why someone wants to go to a trade union comes down to employee engagement, doesn't it? So, look, if you have a policy like that, if you have somewhere people can go if they've got concerns as well, before it's got to a point where unions are being bandied around, that could head off a lot of it.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

One th one thing that I've got to in my consumation is that so I used to work in outsourcing years ago and we would do From memories. From we're not a proper job. This isn't a job. It's like this is just I don't know what this is. Um the um but we would we would generally do restructures every six months because there was a budget reviews and it was m it was pretty much April, October. We'd we we'd do stuff. And actually, I think there is a if you are in that space and in that world, yeah. I don't think there is a you have to, but I think the I think there's a conversation to say if you're of a reasonable size, you you're doing things on a regular basis, you're gonna get captured by collective consultation a lot more frequently moving forward with everything that's going on. Do you just set up a works council now? Yeah, bite the bullet, have them engaged, you've got all your reps in place, so actually you're not having to go out and get reps every time, and so that you're then in a position that actually you've got yourself covered off because I don't because that's the pain of it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 43:06

Is setting it all up. Like if you have it in place, actually running the consultation is not hard.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Also, I think as well as um from my experience, where you've got a good trade union group or you've got a good work council, if you develop if you work on the relationships and you develop the relationships, actually it's not a difficult process to go through the changes because if if they feel on the inside of things and you go, right, we're really sorry, we've got to do this again. Yeah, they're not they're not gonna thank you for it.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

No, but they'll understand it. I mean, employees aren't doing these things for fun just because they don't need to. Like, you know, this is always from a place of there is there is a reason why this is necessary. And having someone have that buy in is gonna change everything on that front.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

Completely. And I but I also think that I think there's definitely w well one of the things to consider. So and then fine one of the final questions we had, um, who will name us, uh, is that how do we make all this ch

SPEAKER_03 44:26

I won't even know what's going on. I went about how people like to say.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Oh my god, what's going on? Oh no. You know what we can deal with it. I can't try. Take it everything. What can we do with that?

SPEAKER_03 45:49

At the end of the day, in terms of what you're still too worried about. After engagement at work, after productivity, provided like it isn't about it. It's just learning how to get that.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

It's not product.

SPEAKER_03 46:25

In my life, in my life.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

We got with anything that people would like us to talk about report. Feel free. Thanks once again.

SPEAKER_03 47:15

I'm Rachel Rick. I'm a solicitor at Horsefield Menzies. You can find me at horseshoemenzies.com.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

I'm Alistair Twendlehurst. I'm the owner of EasyHr. You can find you can get in contact with us at info at easyhr.uk as well. Thank you once again for your time. All the best and we'll see in a couple of weeks.

SPEAKER_03 47:32

See you next time.