Not Another HR Podcast #3

In this episode of Not Another HR Podcast, Rachel Rigg (Horsfield Menzies) and Alastair Swindlehurst (EZHR) break down the latest developments in UK employment law—and what they actually mean for employers trying to keep up.

From April’s annual rate increases (including National Minimum Wage, SSP, and redundancy caps) to the ever-evolving complexity of holiday pay, the conversation dives into the practical realities behind the headlines.

They explore:

•  The real impact of updated Vento bands for discrimination claims 
•  Why holiday pay compliance is still one of the biggest risks for employers 
•  The upcoming Fair Work Agency—and why it could be a bigger deal than many realise 
•  Changes to umbrella companies and tax liability 
•  The growing complexity of managing casual workers and sick pay
•  Early insights into potential restrictive covenant reforms

Along the way, there’s a healthy dose of realism (and sarcasm) about system gaming, policy gaps, and the challenges facing managers “in the wild.”

As always, this episode is packed with practical insights—but remember, it’s not legal advice. With so much still evolving, this is very much a “watch this space” moment for HR and employment law.

📩 Got a question or topic you want us to cover? Get in touch:

EZHR: info@ezhr.uk
Horsfield Menzies: horsfieldmenzies.com

👍 Like, comment, and subscribe for more no-nonsense HR insights.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:06

You're joking. Not another one.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Welcome to another episode of Not Another HR Podcast. I'm Rachel Rigg, I'm a solicitor at Horsey or Menzies. And this?

SPEAKER_00 0:16

This this is Alistair Swindlehurst, apparently. Uh I'm the founder of Easy HR. What are you laughing that for? Um so yes, how are you? I'm alright, how are you? I'm fine. It's been Easter. It's been Easter. Probably one of my least enjoyable Easters, to be fair.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

I enjoy that there's a some sort of ranking in your mind then about where that falls.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

There is, there is definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

And it's bottom.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Yeah, I was I was I was I was in bed for most of it through with illness, which is not quite not how you want to be. No.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

No. No.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

But you know, beat's kind of working through the weekend for court, so I was gonna say I th I think being ill actually, Trump's been in court for about a week and a half. Pros, cons, ups and downs. I've been called back for an additional two days.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

I mean, fun and games, we love to see it, but do you? Yes. I mean, yes, if it shows if it makes a point you want it to make, but it's fine. Anyway, um, this is a podcast where we're going to talk to you about updates in the employment space, whether that's from a legal perspective or what people are doing from trends. This is not legal advice. If you need legal advice, go and get professional advice from an actual advisor that you've engaged. Um, and other than that, the only thing I want to add to this is this is current for what we're talking about today as we're filming it, because everything's changing so much, it feels like we need to make the point that if you listen to this in six months' time, none of this might be accurate.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

No, and I think I think that's probably the big thing at the minute is that there's still so much that's waiting to come out in terms of guidance and what's to come. And we kind of have choked about the the good old COVID update, sort of furlough updates during COVID. Um, I think there is I think there's a fair breeze that uh we'll start to see those types of updates on a Friday afternoon at 3 pm, yeah. Where the government will go, like, hey guys!

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Remember us, we've done some work this week and we've got things to tell you.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

We've worked so hard this week and we thought we'd give you three o'clock on a Friday. Um yeah, and and I also think as well is that with some of the stuff that's coming through, is that I kind of say to people like, don't be first to make a mistake.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Um with I I think we've always talked about this initial stage of stuff as being very much sort of administrative driven. It's relatively simple, so I don't think you need to overthink this space particularly. But what I think there is is that there is the planning, there's planning needed for what's coming sort of October onwards, and that's the stuff where we really need the guidance at the minute, and that that seems to be can we look to that space and go like, where's the guidance, guys? And there's a big empty box of guidance.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Yeah, help us to help you. Tell us what you want. But to be fair, even the changes for the actual legislation to change SSP in time for April only came through like the week before. It was like a real Indiana Jones style finish, like pulling the hat out under the door.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

But to be fair, you you would in terms of the stuff that came out, it felt pretty obvious.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

And the guidance.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

It's like we all knew what it would be, but you know, it's just there's been a lot of commitments from the government about what's coming down the the pipeline for them, and now they've got to do it and they've got deadlines.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Yes, yes. But I also think there's one of the things that we talked about is is the unintended consequences as of this as well. And I think we'll we'll get into it probably probably some of the sick pay, but it's like the things with casual workers. Like we had a WhatsApp discussion yesterday about casual sick pay with casual workers as well. Which again is very, very interesting because we had a conversation with a client about it yesterday and we got there, but it's a bit where I think there's going to be a few people caught out with that.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

100%.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Absolutely. So April. April. What a month to be alive. It's spring.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

It's day in the world yesterday, and now it's back to trying to rain the whole time. Is it raining? Trying. Thinking about it. But one of the things April always brings is changes to pay rates. And so I have written them down because I know I tested you a minute ago and you almost got there in terms of your memory on what the new rates are.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

I got the pounds writing and the pence rent pence line, which I think is unfair.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

So we talked about in our last episode national minimum wage is now up to £12.71 for over £21.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Statutory sick pay is now what, Alistair?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Uh £123 and oh god, I can't remember the pence. £25.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

£25, correct. And then a week's pay for redundancy or basic awards in the in uh employment tribunal, if you're a cynic like me, has now got up to a cap of £751. So the maximum someone can get if you make them redundant and they've got 20 years service is now £22,530.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

The the the one thing with that which catches a few people out is if you've already confirmed a redundancy with someone, the redundancy takes effect. So you confirm a redundancy before uh April and the redundancy takes effect after April, make sure you update the redundancy calculation for that as well. Uh because we've seen quite a few people over the years not do that, and it's caught people out.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

It's just a few extra pounds, isn't it? But it just makes that difference, especially when you're adding it up over service and like a mass group of redundancies.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Yeah, I think and I think that's the point is that is that um is the points pay prizes at this moment. And I think at the minute that's the thing for a lot of people, is that it's lots of little pounds here and there, and if the bigger the workforce, the bigger the implications for that with that as well. So um, but yeah, I think definitely just make make sure aware of that.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

But the last one, sorry, is vento bands.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

I love ventobans.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

I know you love vento bands. So vento bands are those um awards you get for injuries or feelings for discrimination claims. So these have gone up. So a lower band for less serious cases is now £1,300 to £12,600. That used to be near like what the maximum social reward would be. So you know you really moved on. For middle band in the Vento um categories where it's not an upper band case. I love how vague these get at this point. Um, it's £12,600 to £37,700. The upper band is £37,700 to £62,900, and then your exceptional case is over £62,900.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

And I think it's worthwhile just I I we we talk to people about bental banners quite a bit. When we get the discrimination claims in, we'll try and talk to talk people through what it actually means as well. So generally speaking, we would say like entry level is something which is a very mild one-off event that you're looking at. Next.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Not a series.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Just that kind of something's been a little bit offensive, but maybe someone's not gone out of their way to do it, and it's not like a bullying or like a sustained It's a bit daft.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

And you you you you could maybe put it down to sort of just not being fully aware of things. The um the middle banding is more about kind of a really bad offence where it's put quite intentional, and it's that the middle but that middle banding also covers sort of a mild campaign, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Mild campaign. But also things like where something has led to someone's exit, generally speaking, you're looking at sort of middle band unless it really has been so abhorrent.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Yes. And then the kind of next band up is kind of where you're looking at the excessive campaigns, and that's the bit where it gets really expensive. That's where you are into discussion, that's where you see stuff on like the in sort of the papers where they see um people have been fought have been emailed stuff, and because either a protected characteristic, people will send them images or whatever, and it you just think, oh for God's sake, you know what I mean? Um so it's really I think when you do get the uh when you do get sort of the discrimination stuff through, um it's really important to understand the ventor bandings in terms of actually the cost of things to you. We do try and explain it to clients as best we can. We probably oversimplify it a little bit, but I think it's to get people.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

You kind of have to, because at the end of the day, right, these are all incredibly vague sets of guidance that have been established through years of case law. But you know, we we talk about this a lot, even with counsel, where we're like, what what are you seeing trends-wise in how injury to feelings awards are made? And most of the time, when it comes to injury to feelings awards and the vento bands being used, it has to be based on what that person says their injury to feelings has been, just as much as it is about what happened.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Because if what happened is serious, but they're like, actually, that didn't bother me at all, it's going to be a low award.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Yeah. But I think the the interesting thing as well, and we're seeing this with I think did we have this conversation? I was forget the conversation. Possibly. I I have conversation go, did I speak to you about this? It's because some of the friends are listeners are one of the most exciting things.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

You need new friends.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

I need friends, to be fair.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Um anyone who would like to apply to be Alice's friend, please write in.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

I'm I'm not I'm not hard work much. Uh the um but it's also things with the definitions of say take a disability, for example. When you get into the ventile abandons, it's a definition of what it what was a disability, when was it raised, and actually the fact that things don't need to be disclosed. I think the judgment of value of claims is getting harder and harder and harder.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

And and it's and it's there's almost kind of a reset that's needed in that space to sort of give a bit more clarity, kind of about what hits what level in there.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

It's absolutely something that's a bit of a finger in the air, and then a judge gets to go, I feel bad for this person, so I'm going to give them more money. And that's how this is a lot of the ways that you can kind of see judges using their discretion that way.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Yes. And discretion's good, but discretion can also kind of mean it's a bit of a lottery.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah. That's it. Like, we don't want a random wheel of fortune every time it comes to some sort of award. Like we'd like some sort of Well, Graeme Norton with a glass of wine at the side. That'd be great. If he could pop along to the tribunal and just say, today your award is.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

So is anything else in the Apple changes?

SPEAKER_01 10:12

No, I mean, obviously, in relation to like statute maternity pay, paternity pay, etc., those have gone up as well. But I did not write them down. So no, you'll have to look that up.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Okay. Um interesting. We've had uh uh a real run of uh share parental leave recently.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Have you?

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yes, which is been quite the surprise because we don't normally get a lot of share parental leave.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

I wonder why I wonder what the trend is. I wonder why people are more likely to reach for it at the minute.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

I think there's definitely the bit where you'll see the father with a better um scheme that you can access. We've had a couple of those, but there would I think that I don't I think people I think there's maybe more of an appetite within the group that having it and it seems less less of a ridiculous idea. Not to say it is ridiculous, uh, but it I think certainly within my peer group it was always that we we would never share parental leave.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

No, of course not. Two weeks back at work, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yeah. Um but I think the group that are coming through now we're probably are probably more open to this and it makes more sense and there's that sense of kind of being in it together. Also, I think there's a there's a sense of actually less disruption to career as well. If you do it in the right way, it's almost like taking a long holiday each I'm not saying I'm looking at the babe as a whole, honestly footing my fighters today. Um but it's the but it's always it's not that big a lapsed period of time.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

No.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

And actually you've still got some continuity with what you do as well.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

It's interesting because the when it was first put to me that actually if uh when in the fight for equality um and women not being discriminated at work for taking time off, that the solution to that is actually giving men better rights for leave. Because in doing that you level the playing field about who's out of the business and how that works, and you see it really disrupts that status quo about you know women being out of work for a year, a bloke being out for two weeks, and like it's like it's a couple of weeks off and then he's back at it. So, you know, it was something that I kind of initially rejected because I was like, no, you know, women have gone through this thing where they've you know pushed this baby into the world, they've got physical recovery as well, there's feeding, there's all the rest of it. But actually, in terms of levelling the playing field at work, that is how it has to happen.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

But I also think those roles have changed a bit. A hundred percent. We we see it with some of our clients where the mother's maybe like the MD of the business, she she's still answering emails, literally is the baby's arriving. Honestly, and um the and takes stats your minimum time off and then just backstrike into it, and the husband's there and they'll they'll pick it up. But it's yeah, I think that's definitely just one to watch because I think just more from the point of view that I think there's a few more complicated, it's a bit more tricky to deal with, so if you are getting it, just make sure you deal with it in the right way, don't overtake and this all managed in the right way. Um, equally as interesting.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

I wonder what topic you're gonna come out with now.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

And talking of the rain, umbrella schemes.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

What a segue! Oh my god. Did you think about that one before you came in?

SPEAKER_00 13:20

I didn't just thought of it on the spot, you know what I mean? It's kind of we've got a really fast brain.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Maybe we should cancel the podcast and just get you on for comedy.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

I am committed to content.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

I think so. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

We are the premium HR content creators.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Right, umbrella companies.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Umbrella companies. So um the has the legislation around umbrella companies has been updated and in the same way that IF 35 shifted obligations for tax and basically um making sure the tax was paid back onto the uh engaging organisation, it looks like they're doing exactly the same thing for this.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

It's bigger fish to go after, isn't it? So this is so in relation to this liability that's shifted, it's for unpaid PAYE and for national insurance contributions down the hierarchy of these like umbrella structures.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Yes. But I think the the interesting thing is is that we've well, I think one thing is that one umbrella firms don't the IR 35 things around umbrellas only kind of kicks in once you're at auditable level, which is around about you've got to have a uh turnover around about 14 million, book value about 7.1-ish.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

I'm gonna trust you with all this.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

This is this um well it changed last year because it used to be about 10.2 and 5.1, and then it went up at that point. So I used to be bang on with the old numbers, the new one I'm still not quite, and then it's an average hike out of 50. Over the year, you need two of the three to hit audit level. That's when the IR 35 stuff kicks in. Uh, we I we've got a lot of people that are below that, they still think they've got to do the IR 35 obligations if they're bringing contractors in. You don't need to I thought it's just a national manner that you don't always need to do that. Think about where you are, but you have also got the deemed employment issues as well. So be careful with that. Um but with the umbrella schemes is that they were they were always there to try and force people to kind of pay the tax and national insurance. Yeah, and we found we've done some big pieces of work with large employees in around uh IR35 and umbrella schemes a couple of years ago. Complete nightmare.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

And um who would have thought?

SPEAKER_00 15:33

I think I think what we saw at the time and what the reason why this is, is that a lot of people were still still sailing very close to the breeze in what they were doing. Yeah, and I think what this is is just a reaction to take away loopholes at this moment in time, and I think if you look at the um route of activity over the next 12 months with everything, yeah, everything is about removing loopholes, and um not that I would ever get into trouble to say to say that there's an issue in terms of finding wriggle room. Um there is there's an inch on that thing.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

No one has ever ever pulled you off on that sort of thing before. No, no, that's not a living.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Um the I got sold off by by uh a greater Manchester body, but anyway, that's that's a different story for a different day. Um they um but this whole thing at this moment in time is about how do we take away uh take away loopholes for employers, is making sure that you're paying the right tax, that we're accounting for the right national insurance, that actually that grey ambiguity that people could sort of play them is just uh disappearing at this moment in time.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Which is forcing people down to be a we've got to deal with things.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

HMRC want their money.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

They do.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Um And they want to have other people be responsible for for making sure that that happens. So this has apparently come about as a bit of a trend of people not meeting those minimum PAYE thresholds consistently on a very small level and then having to filter that back up to find some liability for it. So employers of record are going to be really hit by this quite a lot. So overseas bodies who employ someone to just do their payroll locally, um, now they're still going to remain responsible for it. But you know, I don't think it's a massive surprise. I think this is kind of the trend we'll see across the board with little level compliance like this where you fall under that threshold.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Yes, but I but I think that that uh but I think this is the more sort of but that sounds like a fear monger, is that is that how do we then make sure that we're not this is all about kind of this bigger business administr administration than being sort of almost kind of you can feel it falling down on top of people and that's a real tough stuff.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

It is, it is. So watch out.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Great.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

So fair work agency.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Fair work agency have announced their board.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Woop woo.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

I mean, so interestingly, before we get into who they've appointed, one of the things I was looking into was the Fairwork Agency starts in April, doesn't have enforcement powers yet, but once it does, and we don't know when they're coming. So surprise when that comes. Um but when that they do, they'll be able to go back to December 2025. Oh, did not know that. I know, right? So um so from the enforcement of the Employment Rights Act, they'll be able to look back over that period to do things like sick pay, holiday pay enforcement, etc. Those rights that although they have no ability to do anything about it yet, they can look back now.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

But I I think I um I was with Swan, so we can use the very a very uh awful name to describe the Fair Work Agency. I was like, ooh, it's a bit strong. Um no, but it is but it and I think this is I I don't think people are looking in the direction of the Fair Work Agency enough at this moment in time. It is, I think it is gonna be a combination of that national minimum wage framework of approaching issues set alongside the powers of HSE.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

And you've kind of created this kind of really kind of quite powerful kind of situation. I think the the people who are sitting on the board are really quite interesting. Um I think because there's six people that have been announced, three of whom are nine announced. Oh nine, sorry, do apologize.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Three employee employer background, three trade union background, and then three kind of professors or research professionals that work in the employment space in a more neutral capacity.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Yeah, so we've got um uh Unite on their communication workers union and prospect. Um I'm not surprised that CWE were on there and Unite. I can imagine Uzadora's got their nose that are joined, but um Ah, they didn't get an invite to the party. Yeah, um and and they were always gonna be on there. I think for me, um I think the fact that they're make up a third of the of the board It's quite heavy.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Yeah, it's quite I mean like you can have employee background representatives without them necessarily having to be trade unions.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Yes. But and I think the um if you look at the uh independent members you've got So in addition to that we've got um Patricia Finlay who is professional working employment relations at um the Scratch Centre for Employment Research. So again, another ER-led person, probably I would not be surprised if she's got background in sort of employee relations in that. Uh Gavin Kelly, Chief Executive of Nutfield, again, sort of generally good. I I'm not too bad at that. Um he's head head of Resolution Foundation uh and Dora Olivia Vicole, who's chief executive of the Works Work Rights Centre, uh, and she supported migrant and vumble workers, which again there'll be some really admirable work in there, um, but I probably think it's the from an employer-led perspective, yeah, is potentially quite limited. I think when you look at the employer kind of biased people, you've got Neil Cowbrey, who's chief executive of the Recruitment Employment Confederation. Now, Neil, I've come across for years, I actually he's I think he's a good advocate, I actually quite like him. I think he speaks a lot of sense. Um the other two individuals on the staff are for uh for Rookie and he's employment employee employee relations strategy director of BT.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

And then you have Joanna Young, who's Chief Executive of the Association of Labour Pro Labour Providers. I think so. There's a big gap for me in terms of, and this is where I kind of start to get my little drum out and go like we need to get you a little drum. I do. I've got a tantrum generally to go with these things. But for me is the that there is a if you look at employees with 100 heads or less, there is no one speaking about their voices in kind of how best to do this.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Like Neil, if I just look at our employer's group, Neil is a step removed from sort of day-to-day running the businesses. I d I think he's good and I think I think he will be very I think he's very even-handed, I think he's very sensible. Uh the chat from BT, the problem is that they are coming from a business at scale. Yeah. And their understanding of what's required.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

They haven't been on the front line for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

I think but I think their front line compared to the the front line to what is a more normal size business in this country is very different. Yeah. You know, business size of BT, they are a massive employer, they've got a massive, a massive amount to bring. But they are one of a they are, they're an abnormality, they're a small percentage of the businesses in this country are of that size.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

And if I feel there is a there is a I'm not disagreeing with what the Fair Work Agency is trying to do, but I think I think my concern is about the way it it will go about what it's going to do, because the way it's coming out is that I'm almost feeling like there's gonna be dawn raids where they're gonna go into premises.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Have you paid your holiday pay?

SPEAKER_00 23:53

You know what I mean? You're gonna have everyone sort of like corraled in the in the uh in the in the boardroom cuffed as as as as they go through uh as they go through your trade.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Maybe the first couple examples might be a bit like that, then they probably might get a bit bored.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

I might is this is this libelous or slanderous?

SPEAKER_01 24:12

I think not my area of expertise, but give it a go and I'll tell you. I'll tell you afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

But but I I do like I just I kind of sit there and it's think, I think as a thing, as an entity, wrap into that uh the know that if you don't keep adequate records Yeah, so this is the other thing that's come through is this new um criminal sanctions for anyone who is found not to keep their holiday pay records up to date. Now, look, I don't think anyone's going to be in cuffs from that perspective. That what we're talking about is unlimited fines, and that will be in a situation where it's like the most abhorrent, complete departure from any attempt of keeping holiday holiday pay records. But the new obligation came in in April 2026, which is that you need to um keep records of uh the paid at the time off you've given people that they've had their 5.6 weeks per year, um what they have been paid for that time, and then from there that you have paid in lieu of holiday when people exit, and then you might need to keep so those are the three things you have to have records of for at least six years now. Great, fine, but most people will have that already, but what you might want on top of it is keeping records of your soft support, so when you email around to people and say, please can you take your holiday, etc. Those are really good records to have so you can show in the event of enforcement that you've done what you're supposed to have done, right? But realistically, is that going to result in criminal sanctions? And realistically, you know, the Fair Work Agency it kind of comes hand in hand with this new obligation because without us having an obligation to keep records, the fair work agency has nothing to look at.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Yes. So but uh but I think there's a lot there there's a lot of people who are still paper-based. Um everything's on Excel spreadsheets.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

You have fat fingers, uh, which then overwrite data.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Well, also, not gonna lie, holiday pay changes on a probably annual basis in terms of how it's been calculated. So, you know, like everything from that like roll up, you know, paying in lieu of a crude holiday, this concept of a week's pay changes through case law all the time. So, you know, what might have been compliant at one point might not be later. So I have a real sympathy for employers where there is any kind of commission structure, you know, bonus structure, etc., that means that a week's pay isn't just a salary because it is an absolute mountain to climb in terms of compliance.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

But but it's the bit where, to your point, a lot of people aren't very good at they'll just do stuff. Yeah, they'll find themselves at the end of the year where they'll be like, uh we we've come across people that will go, you know what, you I can't afford you to take the time off next year because you've not taken it this year.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Here you go, I'll just pay you. Uh which you you should know that you can't pay.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Um It's people who kind of think they're doing favours for helping out and end up falling foul of someone who hasn't had their 5.6 weeks.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

And this will be where I think people will get caught out because they'll be doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Someone and and they'll generally like they won't be bad employers.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

They won't be technically correct from an employment law perspective, but they'll want to do the right thing. They'll then have a disgruntled employee, I suspect. That disgruntled employee will be like buggers. And then that will that will then lead into an investigation, and then all these things will then come up. And I think the pro the other thing as well is that I suspect that a few people will one is businesses of this type actually keeping pace with what's going on. You've got you've now got the fair work agency that's gonna be operating as people are learning at this moment in time. So it's not as if you've got this period of grace where you can go, ah right, just give us a bit of time, we might get a few things wrong to begin with, but actually we'll get there in the end.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

No, we're in it.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

No, it's like you've got to get up to speed.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

But saying that, in terms of what the actual consequences are if the Fair Work Agency were to budge in and say, actually, you know what, you haven't been paying holiday pay correctly.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

The situation is that they would ask you to repay what you owe to the individual fine, because that's what you would have need to pay anyway, and then they can fine you on top of that 200%, so twice as much as a fine of the holiday that you didn't pay, up to a cap of £20,000 per head. Right? But it goes it goes down to just a hundred percent of the fee if you pay it in 14 days, so it's like a parking parking fine. But so, you know, I know it's really scary that this is coming in and there is time to sort it out. Yes. But hopefully we're talking about, you know, the odd few quid here and there. That being said, one of the highest value cases I've worked on was a mass workforce where, exactly in the situation you described, individuals were um acquired into a new business and they were told, look, you've got this commission pay structure. You can either be paid with this commission pay structure, or we'll take the commission pay structure away and we'll pay you more, but you're not going to make it as commission, but we're not including it in average holiday pay when that change came into the law. Employees all said, Yeah, we like the bo we like the bonus structure as it is, we'll keep it like that, please.

SPEAKER_02 29:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Then get a mass grievance from all of these employees saying, Where's my average holiday pay? We're like, you agreed, you wanted this to be the way forward. It's not possible to do that, and it's worth hundreds of thousands of pounds going back years and years and years for you know a huge workforce, that's where your potential liability sits.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

And I think that's that's the issue, is that you've you've done lots of little things for people over the time. That's where you'll kind of acquire and and it's it's not what there's not like one big invoice that's going to come in for this. It will be an accumulation of issues. I think the thing with this as well, anyone who thinks they're going to jail, they're not doing that. No. Because it's like with um right to work checks and the chat the chance we've got a prison with that, you ain't got to get it.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Well, there isn't actually even a sanction of possibility of jail time, it's unlimited fines, which is a criminal sanction. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

But again, it's that you need to be doing something really awful from a like you need to be awful, like there needs to be probably an email along the lines of Hi Alistair, I have decided not to do this anymore.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Nobody gets any holiday pay, lots of love from employer.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

But I also think there's there's more employees can do, and they need to do more to make sure they can do it. It's like because we still get the question of like, can I force my team to take leave? Yeah. And my go, yes, you can. And you need to. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

All of this stuff, I really dislike it because it stops people from actually just getting on with things where you're like, no, I know you you you're not asked about those last few days of the year that you don't want to take, and you're enjoying what we're doing, or whatever reason that you don't want to take it, fine. But we're gonna have to make you.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

But the other point with that is that do you need to take your statutory twenty minimum? Or if you've got above you statutory, you've got additional contract all days.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

So actually is that I honestly the fact that we've been through all of this employment law reform and we haven't touched holiday pay when we've got an EU minimum, a UK minimum, and then a contractual entitlement on top is mental. And that's the hill I am willing to die on.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Holiday pay is mental. It it is it is it is the one area.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

It's genuinely insane.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

It's the one area that you didn't think would have a continuous continual existential crisis.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Oh, is it just like it's overdue a spiral actually? Like, you know, we we haven't had one in maybe six months.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

It needs some medication just so it can calm down to be fair. Um it's it's been honestly, it's bananas. But with that as well, not talking about it same pay in holiday pay. Um I want to go I want to go back to casual workers in SSP, which I wasn't allowed to make a conversation point today because you said I wasn't allowed to do it. What? You said yes. You said I've got I've got a WhatsApp.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Oh, maybe I need to use my use of veto better.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Um but uh again, speaking to a client yesterday, they went a lot of casual workers in the business and they were like, What do you know about seat pay for casual workers? And it is, well, if they're scheduled to be on shift, that person then rings up and then follows the normal reporting procedure, then you've got to pay them as per that. Um the question was about enhancements as well, so they have an enhanced scheme. So my view on life is that if they're under the 13 weeks, you can pay them on SSP, but if they go above 13 weeks and you've got a payment in line with or you use them continuously for 13 weeks, then you can do that. If you've not, then you can pay them on SSP. Um but it's the um it's gonna catch people out the casual worker, the casual worker piece, and there's a real kind of like uh, but normally kind of like they're a bit kind of like they'll chop and change, and I think if you if you've got a big casual worker population and you are quite and people don't turn up and you're quite happy to zero you've got bollocks to it, even if they ring in, we'll just not pay you. I think I think you'll probably see in some people will learn to game that system quite quickly.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

So the other part of it as well is in making sure you've got attendance management procedures in place. So again, is that if they are if they're going off and you're seeing absences in terms of like two absences in like the first three months, then you say, Well, actually, we're gonna terminate the contract on that basis. I think but I think you've got to be really clear, really hard about that, and be very explicit about what you do.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

I think a lot of people are panicking, waiting to see how this is going to impact them, and at the minute we don't know if it actually will or not. There's a real cynical part that's like believing that there's a capacity for it, but you know, basically keep an eye on it, and if it does come to be an issue, introduce those policies up to like upcycle upcycle, um, upskill your line managers so that they're knowing that they can pull up on this, and then as long as people are equipped to know actually that something could be disability-related absence, and we need to take extra steps to take care. But if not, yeah, be robust.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

But you that's you should but I think that's the point where I I I don't think you should wait and see. I think you should get a policy in place. That's not a good thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it but it's being really clear, but it's also the bit where whatever happens in life, people will game the system. You know what I mean? And I think there is people when we speak to people, they they want this kind of like go, I want this absolutely foolproof titanium it's gonna work plum. And by going, oh god, I wish I had one of them.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

We are seeing a lot of system gaming. I mean, I have told you about these claimants that are coming to the employment tribunal systematically, to the extent that we've received claims against three of our clients from the same person by chance, because he is making applications with uh um two CVs, one of which has protective characteristics that are very obvious and one of which it doesn't, and he's trying to extort awards from um employers.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Yeah, no, uh you mentioned that, and we've seen that through not ourselves but another company we deal with, and they there's a there's a chap that will make serial applications, he'll try and get to sort of probably the lowest level type person in the business, ask make a number of requests to that person about his interview, those things then don't happen, and then the letters begin.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

So maybe my cynicism needs to be restored and people are more likely to get in the system than I'm expecting.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

But but but this a lot of the stuff that you we put in place is only there for when it goes wrong. Yeah, very true. And I say, like, in the in the with the vast majority of people, you're not gonna be reaching for the contracts for the policies, and actually most people the vast majority of people just want to come in, do a decent day to work and get and go home and see their families.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

You mean you're not staying up at night reading all the policies?

SPEAKER_00 36:18

Er no I am for different reasons. Um but um but there is always gonna be, you know, like we're not immune from knob heads, you know what I mean, ultimately. They will always they they don't discriminate.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

I mean this is why we have a job.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

And I think the these the reason we put a lot of time and effort into the contracts is that when it goes wrong with these individuals, they're the ones that are reaching for the policies and the contracts.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

And this is where they they create the long legal bills. And it's the bit where this is why it's important to do it, because you do have these, we're having we're having these inferences probably on a more frequent basis, either with the same people on a continuant basis, or with um or there's probably a few more people feel probably a bit more empowered to do it. Yeah. Maybe with the support of Chat GPT.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Support of ChatGPT. Um, what I would say is that if you are coming across a problem person, maybe just put their name in the employment tribunal decisions and see if you can get a bit of an insight as to how many other times they've done this.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

But but I think whether they're in in the business or out there, this is the reason why it's really good to have the procedures, let people know what they need to do, just try and be on top of it.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Well, most of it is really equipping your managers to understand how what they need to do, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

And I think that's what a lot of people are really poor at doing, because it's the bit where you see people just silo everything and go, it's alright, I'll s I'll sort it out. So when I'm when we get a manager in the wild, that's the deal with something.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

A manager in the wild, the leather-spotted manager out on the plain.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

And it is like Sony, you know what I mean? Sorry, you don't deal with a great deal. It's like Yeah. And he's like a bison. That's just um is it a bison? What's the one that always gets gets eaten all the time?

SPEAKER_01 38:01

In what environment? You have to be more specific. Uh like an antelope.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Pick your prey of choice.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

It literally is that's a totally easy prey of choice for certain people.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

Oh Tony.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Sony. I've not even said Barbara from Wigan. Oh, Barbara. So no, but this is the bit where if they are out in the wild, they need to be able to know how to protect themselves. Yeah. So I'm not saying that you're getting tooled up. But it is.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

So what for metaphorical predator here a claim?

SPEAKER_00 38:32

Like, I think if you I think there is a bit where your managers are gonna run into more issues on a more frequent point.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Oh, 100%. And we can't anticipate what all of them will be.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

No, and I think it's it's the rather than saying let's know about all the different processes, it's the bit of like, how do you how it comes up, where do I go? Yeah, how do I manoeuvre out how into myself into a safe space where I've committed to nothing and uh I can still then come back with a response on things.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

Go on, Tony. You got it, Tony.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

You're great.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

We believe in you.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Yes. You didn't get the turn of the tiger job though, did you? No. Um, but I think but anyway, I think there is there is there is a lot to happen, there is a lot to kind of still unfold. Is that anything else from you?

SPEAKER_02 39:17

No.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

So we don't have any we don't have any questions this well, we did sort of do have questions, that was the uh casual the uh 06 phase.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Other than that, we're just getting I mean, uh did we touch on restrictive covenants before, have we not?

SPEAKER_00 39:31

No.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Restrictive covenants are currently subject to reform. Um that there's been a consultation, the consultation is closed, but the proposal is that non-competes will either be time limited to like three to six months, um, or will be limited based on the value of the business, basically recognising that they're of most value to very small innovative businesses that need to protect their confidential information, proprietary information, um, or that they were to have a sliding scale on on how much someone earns or things like that. So we're in consultation, we'll see what happens. I've been in court for two weeks talking about non-competes, and while life would be made much easier if there was just a blanket, you can never have anything over six months. Um where's the fun in that?

SPEAKER_00 40:19

But no, and I I think the I think I think we we deal with restrictive covenants on quite a long regular basis. I mean I I would say there's more we've probably seen people have more success in terms of fight of getting injunctions or at least having degrees of success with restrictive covenants recently. But I also think people have started to take them more seriously recently.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

Yeah. I think you see different sectors really, industries that I didn't realise would be so into it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yeah. And I think I think it's interesting what you're saying there. I I knew it was at the consultation, wasn't aware that was some of the feedback. I'm I'm kind of holding breath until we get we shall see. But I think but I always think the ad I think the approach with restrictive covenants is that if you've not taken them seriously, then why do you expect a court to take them seriously?

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

So it's the bit where you need to show that level of kind of thought.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

If only I could have called you as a witness, that would have really distilled quite a lot of what we went through.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

You've called me as a witness.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

I'm calling Alice at Findlehurst to the stand. Um no, absolutely right, it's a watch is space basically.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

So no. I was gonna say, um anything else that's grew up in your world?

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Nothing for me.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

No. Um I was gonna say if I'm gonna say we'll do it send us out in the same way. If you've got any questions, uh messages on socials, um I was gonna say we'll put this in our easy um I think that's really kind of the camera telling us that it's time to go. So um if people need to contact us, uh you can find us at info at ezhr.uk. Um and just feel free, just if you want to get the tires on any issues or just kind of go like ah ha ha hace what's having uh which is a lot of our conversations. Yeah. Absolutely feel free to do that.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

Uh you can find me on the horsefield menzies website, horsefieldmenzies.com. Um yeah, other than that, we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Have a great one, speak to you soon.