Not Another HR Podcast #4 Tribunal Chaos, AI Grievances & Why HR Is Getting Harder

In this episode of Not Another HR Podcast, Rachel Rigg (Horsfield Menzies) and Alastair Swindlehurst (EZHR) unpack the growing pressure facing employers as tribunals rise, grievances become more complex, and AI starts inserting itself into workplace disputes.

From sexual harassment and ADHD-related claims to AI-generated grievances and six-year tribunal timelines, the conversation looks at what’s really happening behind the scenes in HR and employment law right now, and why so many employers feel like they’re constantly on the back foot.

They explore:
Why employment tribunal claims are increasing—and how long cases are now taking to reach a hearing 
✅ The rise in sexual harassment and ADHD-related workplace disputes 
✅ How AI-generated grievances, contracts, and “legal advice” are creating new risks for employers 
✅ Why performance management processes often fail before they even begin 
✅ The problem with overcomplicated appraisals, KPI overload, and managers avoiding difficult conversations 
✅ Practical ways businesses can track grievances, manage claims, and reduce legal risk before problems escalate 

Along the way, there’s plenty of realism (and sarcasm) about settlement culture, pointless appraisal forms, managers avoiding awkward conversations, and the growing challenge of keeping workplace processes practical in an increasingly complicated legal landscape.

As always, this episode is packed with practical insights—but it’s not legal advice. With tribunal backlogs growing and employment law continuing to evolve, employers are having to balance compliance, common sense, and damage limitation in real time.

📩 Got a question or topic you want us to cover? Get in touch:
EZHR: info@ezhr.uk
Horsfield Menzies: horsfieldmenzies.com
👍 Like, comment, and subscribe for more no-nonsense HR insights.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:06

You're joking. Not another one. Hello and welcome to the Not Another HR podcast. I'm Alfa Swindlehurst.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

I'm Rachel Rigg.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Um we're back. We're back, we're back back.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

We're back.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

It is, it's been Easter.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Yeah, has been Easter.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

How have you been?

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Busy.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Busy.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

I mean, you would think coming out of sort of a speedy trial injunction that I would have had nothing to do. But we've got tribunals coming out of our ears. So for new listeners, I'm an employment solicitor. Alistair is an employment consultant. Yeah. HR consultant.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

HR. I've never described myself an employment consultant, but actually that's kind of sort of what it is.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Treat yourself. I mean like I could luxuriate in that. But so we we are I think I've got three defences to file in the next week. So yeah, it's just constant and it's cross the board.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

I was like, we'll come back to tribunals, but it's like I we'll come back to tribunals. But it it's the kind of what what so in terms of you because I I heard about your uh tribunal activity before before before Easter. Um so what have you been seeing sort of the last last few weeks?

SPEAKER_01 1:10

So we track for our volume clients, we do a analysis of what trends they've got. So I have a like global tracker, I wrote people the statistics, and what we're seeing a lot of is um even in industries you wouldn't expect, sexual harassment claims coming through the roof, sort of minor comments exploding, sort of thing. Um a lot of ADHD related disputes or any employment process at the moment. So if you've got a redundancy, suddenly the appeal or the tribunal down the line is oh you I needed advance notice and processing time and you didn't factor in my ADHD, things like that, and just AI.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

I'll tell you what, that implies the kind of the processing bit, the redundancies at the minute, that's a big one that we're seeing. It's huge.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

There's a lot of redundancies going on at the moment, so you know, even sort of in the market, there's big employers, like I think a lot of the supermarkets are making redundancies similar, like huge scale.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

So but I think the thing because we we're generally when we're running redundancy skill exercises is that we do the bigger stuff, but a lot of it is kind of nip and tuck stuff here and there, and there's you know being very strategic about the kind of the numbers that you impact and how you manage it. Um and so when we say you're doing a smaller group and you'll go in, and we can run a pretty tight kind of operation, so it's a bit where at risk, three meetings, do it in just over a week in terms of what you're doing, but you kind of put a nice cadence in it. Um we get some real pushback on that at the minute.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Like it's a lot of derailing attempts going on and what we're seeing, which is making it really difficult to stick to that kind of process.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

And it's it's more the like the big thing that I'm seeing is that it's the I need time to process, I need some time to understand what's going on. And you can kind of you kind of sit there and think, cracky, you know what I mean? And it's and it's that I think it's that balance between kind of going um uh it it's the keeping the pace and it's dealing with genuine issues.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

We're not seeing too much in terms of the ADHD and sort of like that type of stuff, but it's more just general, this is quite overwhelming, and I need I need to I need to talk and I need time to sort of just well the most recent one I've got on my desk is a guy who's saying that um they announced at risk and then they had a protected conversation where they said, Look, no one has to go through a consultation process, if you'd rather just take an exit, or we can go through it and we can see what happened. And they are suing on the basis that they were s taken aback by the protected conversation and needed time to process it. And it's one of those things where it's like I've got a lot of cases like this at the minute where it's like that's not compulsory, it's not a stick used to threaten you with. This is simply an opportunity for all people to just say, you know what, I really don't want to go through two weeks of uncertainty, and I'd rather take an agreed exit and a lump sum of cash for the privilege.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

But but I I think that's been coming for a while. Like we we had one I think last summer, and we did uh we did an offset meeting with someone to do um settlement offer, and like this person was desperately unhappy in the job, and sort of we I can't that they didn't know I was gonna be there, so kind of as as as they walked into this meeting room, they kind of look what you could have won us. It's like a speedboat, yeah, and you live in Tamworth.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Uh what the mystery box.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

But honestly, I thought this person was gonna like they started having a panic attack and or what presumed was presumably a panic attack, and then I thought they were gonna sort of like run out of the hotel and and they refused to come to meet a a room with me.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

And it's like I understand that.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Come on, but then it cheers, thanks mate. Um but then the other part of that is also then um like it it was getting that offer to them, and it was at this point, it's like going, This is this is not working.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

So we actually You are so unhappy, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

And and it's like the fact you won't come into a meeting with me, it's like I get that you don't want it's almost like they don't want to engage on it. Yeah, and like we put it in right and we got there in the end, but it was like it was like I th I and I think it's interesting with the protective dis uh conversation.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

I'm glad you're here. Um There's a people are it's really kind of messing with people's heads at the minute. But I do wonder whether it's a bit of because the job market is so bad.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

I think there's just generally a bit more distrust with employees at the minute. Like I don't know if it's And employers. And employers.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

But there seems to be I don't know if it's that people are more aware of their rights, people have the support of AI that's telling them that these things aren't right, you know. And when people are using AI for support on this, AI will always be taking their side and presenting things in a way that's reinforcing rather than challenging those ideas. So I don't know if people are more entrenched. Normal management conversations are like people are outraged about them. So, you know, that's that's what I'm seeing. I don't know what you've been working on this week.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

No, we've we've probably we've seen a bit of a drop-off. We we were we were memorics or pre-Easter on restructuring work. Where I think for us, kind of the grievances loom large, but the grievances in terms of probably creating an exit rather than resolution, and that's a real kind of challenging one at the minute. I think one thing that's come up with us recently is that we didn't get involved in it, but we were kind of approached about some support, and it was that um someone who'd been doing some interviews with with an with an individual and they'd used uh an AI agent to do um to trans transcribe so they had the had the had the sort of transcription for afterwards. The interviewee left the call and then they had a discussion about this person after af after the event.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Um they maybe didn't say the most flattering things about this individual.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

And then once they shut shut the meeting down, that transcription then got sent to everyone. Just automatically got sent to the emails that have been used for the call, so this person being invited by their email, they got a transcription.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

You can just imagine that moment when you're like, oh god, when you realise it's happened.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

I think it's like I think the the phrase is that your soul leaves your body.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

At that moment in time.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

Yeah, yeah. And it was, I was just like, I was like, oh my god. Um that and they got tribunal, they got tribunal application or early conciliation with it, and it and they're in the process of resolving it, we we kind of direct them to someone else to deal with it, and we we weren't the right person to deal with it. But it is just it's just a bit it's a bit of a trick, it's a bit of a tricky one. But I also think it's the bit where I think people, as much as we're seeing employees try and be too smart with AI and things like that and using it. We saw a contract yesterday from someone who they'd used AI to create a contract, which actually, as an offer, I actually would be quite pleased with it because it it covers the major bases.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

But there's so many things it missed that were it it's all sort of like um recovery of overpayments, the deductions of wages, it's health and safety.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

So it's the it's the mechanics, it's the day to date, it's the as an employer when you need to rely on something.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

And this is the thing, is that there was there it left you with no kind of uh shots to play.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

If you if if you ran into trouble, you were like, you were like, it's great, it kind of covers the terms, but it it doesn't actually, it doesn't facilitate anything for you. Yeah. If things go a bit kind of south.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

I mean, one of my favourites, I'm sure you'll have seen these as well, is when you get an employment contract for a tech company and they've tried to completely redo it in a way that's not super corporate. And so it's like, look, from time to time we might have to discipline you, but here's our you know, but we don't want to be there. But if we ever have to, there's this. Like, you know, we're on your side.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Or the other one within that group or kind of early stages is that they'll get they'll take the director's service agreement and rewash it for the business.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

And then you've got a cleaner effectively on like director terms.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

It's like 12 months' notice and you must resign as a statute director when you leave.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

And you're gonna go, and they'll go, it's really robust. I was like, oh and you kinda go, I think we could put a horse and cart through that if I said if we were in trouble. So I was like, oh.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

And are there progression opportunities for your cleaners to take you know a role on the board?

SPEAKER_02 9:42

It depends what type of business it is.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Well it does, it totally does.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

So I know. Um taking that pin out of employment tribunals. Amazing. Yeah. And going back to employment tribunals.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

I can't believe this. So, right, I want to talk about this because I have had my first listing for a five-day case.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

The dismissal was in 2024. It took the tribunal more than a year to have the preliminary hearing about this case. So we've had that preliminary hearing last week, so we're what, 18 months from dismissal? And the tribunal has listed us for final hearing in December 2029. Jesus. Yeah. So, you know, just a casual three and a half years from now.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

But in reality, it's six. Because five and a half, six. Because we're actually feeling like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

With ACAS, with you know, the time to bring a tribunal claim, all the rest of it, we are talking six years.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

And it's if we think and I think this is we're we're seeing this, I remember in 204, we were seeing stuff for 27.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

At that point.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

And that was dealing with the pandemic backlog, like you know, so there's a degree to which you can have a bit of sympathy even then in 2024 that that was bad, but it had specific reasons why, but we're just not getting any better.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

No, and and it's getting worse because it is the it feels like the void of claims are coming up, like we've seen people make start the claims process while they're still employed. Yeah. At this moment in time, that's becoming more common as an issue. Um there is there's the bit where P we're also seeing you are coming to the end of the early conciliation window, and it's literally days before the end of the early conciliation window, and A casserole and getting back to you.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Yeah. If you've even heard from him. I've had one case where they've been like, don't ring us. Really? You can only email this early contact team. And I'm like, Well, we're in tribunal now, and they're like, Oh, the tribunal's not sent it to us. I'm like, they have. Here is the copy where they sent it to you. Can you please ring this claim in?

SPEAKER_02 11:44

But that said, like, we've we had like sort of the early part of the year we were dealing with ACAS for some conciliator-led um coffrees.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

And they were um and they were kind of a bit up and down, and they got a bit testy with us over over a few things. Um but we've done one recently, and they're brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Like all over it.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

If you get a good conciliator, it makes such a difference.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

But and I think it's the team that's managing, but but I think that there's some real bottlenecks. I don't think it's the whole system.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Not the whole system. A Casa Creeking, they're under pressure, they've had such an influx of inquiries that they can't keep up. And so, you know, whether the quality of the um conciliator you get is a different question as to whether you can even get someone on it. But you know, when you're looking at things are going to be people can take six months to bring a claim when that um it should be the end of this year or early next year. I think it's the end of this year that they're still proposing when the deadline for bringing claims is extended, and then ACAS is now taking 12 weeks where it used to take six, and then even then it's six years till tribunal. So look, we're talking to people about what you can physically do because as a business, you might be tempted to just pay a claim to go away, but you'll end up with a settlement culture if you're not careful, where people know putting in a bit of a punt, even if you're not going to get to hearing for four years, results in a decent payout.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

But I think we're already there as a settlement culture. Do you reckon? I think, yeah, absolutely. I think s so many people are so aware of settlement agreements.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

I think they've got their head around it. I think I think there's a mechanics that sit around it, which is basically notice, and you probably land somewhere between sort of two to four months as a number, generally speaking. Depending on based on month of service, seriousness.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

But that's with an unfair dismissal cap put in as well. Like, sorry, but there's like a and that's gonna change things again. So, look, we're kind of talking about how you deal with this because you can't get a tribunal to make a decision on strikeout or a deposit order or similar, because they they're not gonna look at it. You'll get they'll look at any applications two weeks before the hearing in 2029.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

And it's but I think the we've always I I think the kind of the the killer position with people when we we're in the negotiations and people know it is like if we don't come to a reasonable number, yeah, we we're we're happy to sit and wait and we can spread our costs over multiple years and we'll go.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

We'll see if you're motivated in four years' time. But so one of the things that um one of my old supervisors used to tell me is you can win on liability and you can win on remedy. So if you have someone who wants a million pounds and you're like, no, this claim is worth 10 grand even if you're successful, and you pursue it, you defend it, and they get less than ten grand, or they don't win, then you can win on that aspect and say that you know that was the punt, we have to see it through.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

But but I also think it's I think it's also depends how that person's being managed as well. And this is the big thing where if there's some some legal advice in the background, you can generally have a reasonable conversation.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

I love it when there's legal advice, like when you have someone who's just on their high horse who is will not be brought down, like the one I was telling you about the guy who's pursuing claims for things like owed holiday pay when he was dismissed part way through the year, he doesn't understand that he doesn't get the full year of holiday pay. Yeah, yeah. And we sat there being like, mate, why are we all here? You you can't proceed with this, but he's so seized on the fact that he could have it.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

And I think that's the thing for me is that because we're because the other stuff we've talked about before, which is like the AI, it's the it's the Chat GPT stuff, people are like people are pumping letters into AI saying, write me a response. It's not catching the right data points, so you're kind of getting all these weird responses back, it's getting everything convoluted. They're they're trusting the AI as a single source of truth, and some employees are as well, because I've seen some employees question some of our stuff where they're kind of going, oh yeah, that's not correct, and they'll send me the AI transcript, and I'm like going, Well, that we don't need we it's nice to have that, but we don't we don't need that. That's that's a very different thing, and actually you are that's just because of the formatting of the document, that's picked up something slightly different, and you've got to be very careful about your behavior.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

That's weird, isn't it? Because you know, it's such a useful tool, but it is designed to give you the answer you want to hear. And so, you know, I've had individuals that I'm acting for who've said, I've been told through Chat GPT that my claim is worth millions. And I'm like, right, the only potential claims you have a constructive dismissal, but you haven't been dismissed yet, so that isn't a thing until that point. You haven't resigned, and disability discrimination. Now, your disability you want to plead about is because your dad died and you've you've been really upset and you've been grieving, but it's not a disability. And so he but he couldn't believe it. He couldn't believe it. So, you know, it's one of those where it's like it's a it's such a dangerous tool at the minute, and look, the tribunals are getting loads of it, they're having to pin people down, we're getting there, but it's going to be about how you can resolve things yourself.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

And I think that's the bit where it's it's not walking into issues as well. So I so I there was a piece in the Times at the back of the last year I got roads. Um and one of the things that was saying on that was if you look at the claims that are up, it's like disability is up, uh, a legal deduction of wages is up, and there's some stuff within this which is absolutely avoidable. And those are the two ones for me, which I look at and go like, you can avoid a lot of this.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

If someone makes an owed pay claim and you just pay it to them, then the claim has disappeared. Even if you don't have to settle it, you could literally just be like, you've had it now.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

And then the claim is gone.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

But it it's the but it's the time and money that people waste. And it and and for me it's always like little stuff.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

And I think with the increase on stuff like this, and you've got the fair work agency that's coming in and all the all this type of stuff, that's just gonna it's a rabbit hole that you're gonna get deeper and deeper on.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

It is.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

So I think uh I think the but I think for kind of for me is is that I think the if you're tight if you're getting claims in now, I wouldn't be afraid about kind of kicking the kick in the kind of the role, don't have to look for it.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

This is it. But so two things for me that we're suggesting to our clients is first track what your ACAS early conciliation claims coming in are or your ET claims, because if you're not big enough and you're having a lot of tribunal claims, see what the common issues are, see if there are trends in the business that you can nip in the bud or deal with, like lessons learned effectively. But then the other one is at the end of the day, if you are looking at defending claims five years down the line, you might have to look at settlement agreements or employment contracts that have cooperation clauses in that say if my employment ends, I agree that I will come back and you'll pay my expenses, but I will assist with appearing as witness in litigation or assisting with investigations.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Yeah, certainly for managers, anyone that's in that space.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Anyone that's making decisions. Yeah. And you know, so that's what we're seeing as a change because that's the thing, is that you can kick the can down the road as long as you have a witness there to talk about it. So good documents, secure your witnesses that can come, chat to see if there's patterns and things you can nip in the bud. If it's an owed pay claim, just pay it.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Yeah. No, you know. And I think with the discrimination stuff, I think at the minute it's the and it's gone back to the ADHD stuff we talked about before, treat it seriously. Just it for the cost to get taking someone to occupational health and just put buying someone like for noise cancelling it.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

You say it, but you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. So we're seeing claims at the minute where um someone's been long-term sick because of a disability, and then um an employer's bent over backwards for them, and they are outraged that they've done it. So they kept someone on longer than they should, and it's what we were talking about about people who think they're doing people favours and bending rules and supporting them over the odds, you're gonna get claims about that as well, so you might as well make the decisions you need to make.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Oh, completely, but but I think it's the if you deal with it early, yeah, and then if the capture it in. Yeah, yeah, and if and if the behaviour doesn't change, yeah. Address it. Because the big issue is that it's the people are kind of are too nice to a degree. Yeah. And and it's the because to a degree it's kind of you're either too horrible or too nice, and there's a middle ground in all this, and it well and the horrible people are easy because they don't get that. But I think the too nice bit is that kind of you accommodate and accommodate and accommodate, and it's this point where kind of you add elasticity into your business or the expectations because you've been that far.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

So kind of and then how does it work when you need to eventually make a call? Yeah, and someone's like, Hey, wait a minute, I've been doing what I've wanted this whole time. How dare you make so it's been a really fun time in terms of tribunals. There are still fun ones coming through. If it's a straightforward unfair dismissal, you might be listed within a year, no preliminary hearing just straight in for a two-dayer. But other than that, if it's anything chunky and if you're in London South, expect to wait.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

And just to your point about tracking tribunals, I would say also track grievances.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Track track all the little things. So if you're not getting loads of tribunals, but you're getting enough, which is a problem for you for a smaller employer, look at those behavioural traits that aren't great. Think about what actually and if it's the other thing is also we used to I used to do when I was in house is actually look back to managers, departments, see what's coming out of certain areas.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

And also, the other point I would say is like just because the number is zero in terms of grievances or performance issues coming out of department, that's not a sign that things are are great.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Often that's a sign that they're people feeling right, they can't raise things.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Yes, there's maybe kind of a few bodies buried somewhere, and it's and it's it's if you go in.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Never look under the rug. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Why why is it so lumpy? Um no, which which actually kind of leads on to the next thing to talk about. Um obviously, because obviously spring or sprung, it's it's April. It's time for appraisals.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

It's appraisal season.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

It's amazing. It's like we get to I used to I used to love doing doing appraisal systems.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

I was genuinely surprised. I was like, wow, that's that's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Literally, it's it's like you'd you'd force managers into a room where they look at you awkwardly, and you go, you've got to talk to your team.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

What I find is the the um really long forms people have created across the business for people to fill in about how they're meeting values or how they're meeting what, and it's like none of this is really what we're here for.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

No.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

I'm not saying that we don't that we just completely devalue values. No, no. What I mean is like 20-page forms where you're like, I showed integrity this year by doing this. And it's like good for you, babe.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

Or it's or it's just literally it's like 15 boxes that you go tick. Yeah, tick.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Everyone's a four. Yeah. It's one to five, everyone's a four. No one's a five, no one's a one. If you're two, you're in trouble. If you're three, you're doing very well, but you're meeting your expectations.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Oh no, the the best one is the bell curve. We might have described it as the bell end curve. Um, and that that that was that was the most frightening because and that was that was like the person that like data in the business, generally CFR, went right. In certain glasses up nose. I want these people need to be here, we need this amount of people here. Yeah, it's gonna be precisely this percentage of people. You're like, well, you know, what if everyone's what if everyone's smashing it, you know what I mean? It's like, and I think there's I think the I think we've completely lost sight of what appraisal process is.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

It's mad, but you know what's amazing is no one ever seems to actually bring up performance concerns in appraisals. So we always get like a tribunal case where it's like, oh yeah, no, they were terrible.

unknown 23:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

But no manager's ever told them that. Just been like, keep going.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Because they're stuck in a room with someone and they don't want to sell it and tell me all. And I think that's that I but I think we're so I think there's I think there's a couple things. I think there's the socially stuff in terms of like people of like the high performance podcast with uh Jake. Yeah, what's he called, and the other one?

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Um Jake and the other one.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Yeah, yeah. Um they're all about drinking Huel and being high performance. Yeah, rock stars, rock rock stars.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Let's do some high rocks. And um, and then you've got uh did you know that high rocks is hybrid rock stars.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Yeah, doesn't it make you want to be sick?

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Yeah, massively.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

We're not signing up anytime soon, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Or like a bag of soup. Um the um yeah, so they and I think we've got this thing where people look at it and go, I really want this super duper appraisal process. And I think we've lost sight of actually what for me is that I've always boiled it down to kind of like people can probably keep about sort of three or four clear objectives in their head any one time, you know what I mean? Anymore, and then just heads explode. Yeah, and what rather sort of saying, right, this is what the business wants to achieve. So actually, if we're trying to achieve this, is what we need you is achieve. Let's look backwards and then look looks for look forward, and it's there's the bit where we create these massively complicated ornate forms that it's gonna be about have you lived and breathed our values? Because if you're not living and breathing the values, you're you're not a good employee. Um the objectives are never the the targets and objectives that we talked about are never followed up, there's no follow-up conversations, follow-up actions in terms of saying, right, we'll we'll put these things in place for you and never done. It and it and it's this bit where it's done, put in a draw, and it's revisited 12 months later.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Oh you're like, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

And to a degree, I'm like, you're better off not doing anything. We we talk a lot of clients off the edge because they'll come in and they'll go, like, so we want to create this performance management process. I'm like, okay. And they'll go, right. So what we want to do, we're gonna have annual review, we'll have a mid-year review, then we'll do check-ins every month. And then it's like, oh, honestly, have you got time for this?

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Unless it is like a real KPI-based role. So let's say it's like IT tickets, or it's sales, or it's you know, there is a baseline metric that you need to see happen, then the reality is that everything after that is just what you want to bring in, right? How hard do you want to make your own life?

SPEAKER_02 26:21

Yeah, but but I also think it's about what people are terrified of having the conversations about is is behaviour and using a rugby analogy, because that's all all I'm capable of doing, is sport analogies. It's like I can talk like the way I'd impact the client was saying, like, you've got to think about that player that gets off the floor and back into a defensive line really quickly. So, what you're looking for is the behaviours of someone who goes, right, I've taken myself at the game briefly, but how quickly am I going to get myself back in the game? And it's all about attitude, approach, kind of how how you respond to it.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

This is the thing is that people measuring it in this way, they're so lost to do it.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

I but I I think the we've got drawn into I think we've got drawn into data. Yeah. I think we've got drawn into we don't necessarily know how to have that conversation with people because I think we've we're scared, I think scared's the right word, of actually offending people at times. Yeah. Or telling people a certain truth. Um and I I often say that kind of we people co-opt us as a business to go and have those.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

He's so go and have the hard conversation for us.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Yeah, yeah. And it's like, so what we're gonna do again, the big guy, we're gonna put him in front of you, we're gonna stand behind him. We're gonna manage him like a puppet.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yeah, and it's like he's gonna say some words, but it's what we it's our words.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and it's but it's the people don't people view that kind of direct conversation as confrontation. And I'm I'm out and it's that thing where people go, you're ever so direct. And and it's like that's the polite way of going, you're really I see that as being really aggressive.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

And I just don't I think we're we're a point where we it doesn't feel like we're conditioned to having that conversation.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Everyone's swerving it. So I was talking to a a business this week where they've had a sort of mid-performer for a few years, they've got to the point where they've been out in business for a while and it's it's bliss, and they're like, we don't actually need them anymore. This is lovely, and now we're going to address the performance, but they want him out. And it's like this is so late now. If you've never had a conversation with them originally about like this is not okay, and this is what you need, you're good at this, but you need to work on this. It's such a shock to get to that point where they've been there for so long, they're like, What?

SPEAKER_02 28:39

Oh, we've had there was one we've done recently, and there's a guy that's they let him work from home two and a half years ago.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

And they've done nothing with him in that time. And sort of child to and they were like, Yeah, we really need to start performance management and we need to deal with his games appraisal season, we need to deal with it. I'm like, we can do that, I said, but we can't sort of launch in sort of two-footed at this guy. He said, It's just it's just if we've done nothing with him, that's just not fair. I thought, you know, as much of a pain as he is, he at least needs the opportunity to um kind of understand that he's not where he should be. And part of that is him going, I can see what's coming down the track. Do I really want to be in the business?

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Is this the right fit? Is this somewhere that I'm doing well at that is good for me?

SPEAKER_02 29:25

Yeah. And actually, it was great while it lasted, but maybe it's time to kind of just draw a line on other things. But they're like, no, no, we need to go, they don't want to go herring in. And even but I think when you've had someone that's not you've not managed for two and a half years, they've they've established their behaviours and gone, they're not interested in me.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

And then if you then go in and go, so here's the feedback.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Here's my little boxes, but uh but also it comes out of the blue for them, which makes them think, is this because of something else? Yeah. Is this genuinely because of performance? Because if so, why has no one done anything about it for nearly three years?

SPEAKER_02 30:02

But it doesn't and I th and I think the thing with the the pip and the performance stuff and all and all that and less thing about appraisals is that people assume that it needs to be this big action activity, and it's not. It's the bit where it's it's simple, it's small, it's a and the three kind I I I I kind of have a massive advocate for kind of just keep it at three things. It doesn't need to be everything because people because I I think we're so obsessed about doing these perfect bits of work and everything looking great, and this kind of content like if if this kind of content led in terms of there can be no kind of um blemishes in what we do we'll lose track of the fact that actually sometimes you need to go and have a bit of a messy and a dirty conversation with someone that is like he's a decent lad, you know, he's alright, but actually he can be a bit of a he can be a bit of a prat from time to time.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Oh good use of prat.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and it's just like they just you know, they just it's but saying to someone like I like it, but we just need to see see this behaviour change. And I think the uh people don't understand the tactics they need to use.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

And like one of the I'm a big advocate of saying to people, if you try and change that behaviour, it's the bit where say someone rather than saying you are doing, it's the conversation of what I'm experiencing when I ask you to do so-and-so. So say someone like every time you ask them to do a job, they kind of go like with a teenager, you're like uh they if but if you're saying every time I ask you to do this particular type of job, I feel like you kind of you just shut down, I can't communicate, that you just it it it's painful for you and it's painful for me. It's not a perfect way of describing it, but I think you I think it has impact in the way they have that conversation.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

And people but I think pe but I think people assume that it's you're gonna go in and sort of go in, and here's the evidence of and and sort of like just start small and just warm people up and but it's more of a reminder to be having those conversations and appraisal rather than necessarily you know it's great to have these touch points and it's great to manage performance in this sort of way, but it doesn't have to be this whole belt and braces, it can just be that is the nudge to have that chart.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

And and to a degree, as things get more complicated, you want to make things more simple. Yes, and I think I think that's the challenge is that is that as things get more complicated, people try and outsmart and out with the system. Certainly with kind of entrepreneur-led businesses as well, because they want to try and beat the system to a large extent, yeah. That then that then causes challenges because they're trying to create ways to outsmart the system. And and you sit there, like, no, don't do it. We do it. But but I I think the other bit, and I think this will be more but this bit's more important as we move forward for a number of things.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

I think we're gonna we've got the stuff in terms of uh the uh ERA type stuff that's coming up, um Employment Rights Act stuff, so everything that you need for kind of onboarding starters and things like that. Because of the change, because of that shorter window, because of the way that the Employment Rights Act changes um locations for redundancies, yeah. Um people are gonna find I I'm pretty sure people are gonna find themselves in situations where they're gonna trigger collective redundancies and it's gonna be harder to run that redundancy process.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

It's gonna be like it's just that kind of what can you do now? So that we don't know what that threshold is yet, but if it comes, are you ready for systems where you can automatically elect collective reps? Are you, you know, what can you do to streamline it, how can you fix that?

SPEAKER_02 33:43

But I think the I think this where the appraisal's coming quite quite key moving forward. So if you do need to go into a uh redundancy exercise, you need to go through collective redundancies and it's selection processes. Actually, having that appraisal piece, if you've got some base of data to work off where you go, Amazing. We've got we've got a rating, we've we've had these conversations, these are the behavioural pits, we've got some kind of conversation in there. It's not it's not the be all and end all, but what it does is gives you a solid base to work off, and you can and if you sat in a meeting with someone going, Well, um, unfortunately, you were slightly for redundancy because this is the objective data, but if we look at performance reviews, we had some issues in around this.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Everything just matches and it flows compared to that conversation where you're like, So, this is how we've measured you on this objective criteria, but we've never ever mentioned this in any of the performance reviews you've ever had with the business.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Yeah. Well, when we when we have selection criteria, we talk to people about appraisals, and you and you can just see people go. And it's just like fuck's sake.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

I recommend our our appraisal system. I get Dan to do them in mulligans so that you know you're gonna have a like he takes it very seriously, but you do have a pint with you when you're having it.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

There's a lot of there's a lot of meetings in going in mulligans.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

If anyone wants to join us, we'll get in mulligans. I promise you've got real work to do.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

There was a folklore in my house. Um but but I think but I also think it's the bit be I think with the appraisal stuff it's the with the stuff that's coming down the track with the probably I think with the pay claim stuff, be clear about what you're using your appraisal system for. Yeah. Are you doing it for performance, are you doing it for pay, are you doing it for bonus, what are you using it for? But have have a real kind of sense of kind of what you're trying to achieve with it.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Just not appraising for the sake of it, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

And I think and I think that's the bit where it's and then the other bit is actually if you do kind of get some people coming at the bottom end and then you go in the not in the right space, rather than rather than being stuck in a drawer, triage these people, get them back back on, like use this as that opportunity to actually again doesn't need to be like, here's a pip process, yeah. But you've had a conversation with someone, you've gone, I think this this needs to change because it's not where it needs to be.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Have an idea in your head about what that role is in your business and what you are expecting it to do. You know, this thing about like come up with some objectives and make them smart, and then we'll talk about if you've achieved them.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

Not into that, that because unless they're related to what that role is actually supposed to be doing and what success means in that role. Like start a podcast, great tick, done.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

Yeah, yours.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

But and and I think it's it's the it's the it's being intentional, it's keeping it simpler, and I think a lot of and it's helping people understand what you need to do with that to keep it perfect. Keep it small, it doesn't need to be grand statements in what you do.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Excellent. So I'm taking away from stuff some stuff from that.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

I was gonna say, you know, you know, every day's a learning day.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Every day's a learning day.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

You know what I mean? Every day that ends in Y is a learning day. So not so what are you doing over the next few weeks?

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Well and I do it's tribunals, lots of tribunals, um chunky D SARS, we've got a few of those on at the minute, a few clients. I mean, they just seem to come with every grievance now. I don't know if you're experiencing.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

No, exactly the same. And it's I think we've it's getting people to understand that they can't ask for everything as well. And then you like just like I don't think people are up to sp up to speed with the changes that came at the back end of the last year as well.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Data Use and Access Act, I love it. So it's made my life a lot easier, and and you know, there's definitely some tips and tricks we've got that are making things a bit more manageable, but people do not like the results being compliant with the law they are unhappy about. Like, well, I'm really sorry, but that's what it is. So, you know, no.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

No, we've seen a lot of people, I think cleaning house, not cleaning house, that's wrong. I think they are organising their houses at this moment. A bit more than that. I think there's we we've seen more people come forward to say, let's look at job description structure, a bit of governance that sits behind it as well, which is really healthy. I think it's getting things in place. I think the big thing that we it's hard to get certain people passed is kind of the look at the JD as a tablet of stone, and it's like we're as blue tronc are in the thing of it. What?

SPEAKER_01 38:08

A little bit flexible. That's a bit of flexibility in your JD. No?

SPEAKER_02 38:13

I I know what flexibility is, but I'm just terrified of what that is. Um the um but no, it's that bit where it's flexibility, it doesn't need to be it needs to be right, but I I acknowledge the kind of greyness of certain things. Um I was gonna say something else as well.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Is it deeper meaningful?

SPEAKER_02 38:34

No, no, it's not that. But I think there's I what's quite interesting is that some of our employees that could probably take a stronger approach to governance and making sure things are in place and they're sticking their hands up at the minute. So I think there is a message out that we've we've there's one in particular that's kind of contacted this week where I was like, oh my god. I was like, finally, we've we've been trying to get him to update his contract for ages and and some of his policies. And uh he's come and go and he's like, Yeah, yeah. It's time, it's time, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that that to me, again, really healthy, really good, that's what we need. Good. So yeah, interesting stuff.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Good few weeks coming up then.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Yeah, and also don't forget World Cup coming up as well. So if you talk about not not in a not because not because I'm excited about the World Cup, but um just uh people taking time off, um people who come in with maybe a bit of a heavy head after so many drinks who do that.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

No, don't know what you mean, don't possibly know what you mean.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Yeah, um yeah, so just think alright, we'll we'll be we'll be putting that guidance around that.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Yeah. I think that's a really good shout.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

Yeah, so do that.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

So important bit of housekeeping is the fact that none of this podcast is actually legal advice, and you should get legal advice from your tailored legal advisor for your circumstances, and everything we've talked about is accurate as of today, so things might change in the future. Because it changes all the time at the minute.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

Nothing quite like a lawyer bring a good time.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

I know, just just me making sure. You know, should I get a waiver? Should I get you to sign a waiver? That'd be good.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Well, as as as you watch the video or listen to the podcast, it's just a good ticket before you.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

I just you know, compliance. We love to see it. What was you what was it you were saying about making things simpler? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We'll stick with that.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

Sorry, we've got the slushers involved.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Here you go, I got it. I got I got my bit in.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Here's my 600-page document. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Have you read the season seas? It's all chargeable. I'll envoy this to you later.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Yeah. Oh cheers. Anyway, right, thank you for watching your time again. Um, as I say, if you have got any questions, feel free to give us a show. We're we've had some great questions, we've had some great feedback on the back of this. Uh the aim we'll do this for as long as it's useful. Um again, we'll do it every couple of weeks. So, yeah, thank you very much. Have a great conference few weeks.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

And before we start off, where can people find you?

SPEAKER_02 40:41

Oh god, yeah, I keep on forgetting that. Uh so it's uh ezhr.uk is our website. Uh we've also set up an employment rights.com as a bit of a quick guide help for people. Yeah, who who would buy that? Who would buy that URL? Me. Uh and somebody if you just want to catch us, info at ezhr.uk, just give us a shout and we'll kick the tires on any issues. That's absolutely amazing.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Amazing. You can find me at horseshillbenzies.com or on LinkedIn. See you next time.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

See now. All the rest. Not another one.