Understanding and Overcoming Narcissistic Abuse with Dr. Tracy Kemble

Ever felt trapped in a web of manipulation, controlled by someone who seems to be more in love with their reflection than you? Well, you're not alone. Join us as we unpack the painful reality of narcissistic abuse with survivor and expert, Dr. Tracy Kemble. Together, we navigate the murky waters of this often overlooked form of emotional and psychological abuse, highlighting the significance of recognizing the signs and seeking help. 

Brace yourself for an enlightening conversation as we delve into the many faces of narcissism. From grandiose to covert, altruistic to cerebral, understanding the behavioral traits of these different types is a step towards protecting ourselves from their toxic influence. But the journey doesn't end there. Dr. Tracy introduces us to the concept of a 'boardwalk of self-love', a vital tool in the fight against narcissistic abuse, and shares insights from her empowering programs 'Narctionary' and 'Reclaiming Me', designed to help victims recover, rebuild and reclaim their lives. 

As we wrap up our engaging discussion, the spotlight turns to healing and self-love. Dr. Tracy guides us through the process of building emotional resilience and establishing healthy boundaries, crucial steps in the journey towards recovery. Drawing from her personal experience and professional journey, she offers a beacon of hope for those lost in the darkness of narcissistic abuse. Whether you've been a victim, know someone who has, or are simply keen to learn more, this episode is a must-listen. Don't miss it.

Transcript

Announcer: 0:00

Welcome to Wake Up with Dr Douglas James Cottrell, your source for helpful information, advice and tips to live your life in a mindful way in this increasingly chaotic world. For over four decades, Dr Douglas has been teaching people how to develop their intuition and live their lives in a conscious way. His news and views of the world tomorrow, today, are always informative and revealing. To learn more about Dr Douglas, be sure to visit his website, douglasjamescartrellcom, where you can download self-help exercises you can do right in the comfort of your own home. And now here's your host, Dr Douglas James Cottrell.

Douglas James Cottrell: 0:43

Welcome to Wake Up, as I've done a little work in researching tonight's topic. It is a fascinating topic. I learned a great deal where those things that I didn't quite understand about people's behavior, kind of you know, came together for me and I was thinking of experiences and people that I met in circumstances I've been in myself and all of a sudden I realized, my goodness, here is someone who is an expert, here is someone who can teach people, help women, help them become the boss of their own business with feminine energy and some of the things that this lady has done, rather, is absolutely astounding. From Greece, early in the morning, here is Dr Tracy Kimble. Welcome to the show.

Tracy Kemble: 1:39

I should say good morning from Greece, good evening in New York and hello everyone. I'm super happy to be here.

Douglas James Cottrell: 1:46

You know, whenever I talk to people who are quite on the other side of the pond, I always say so you're in the future. We're talking to you on. What is it Saturday? What's it like in the future? Oh, this is an amazing concept, huh. Yes, you know, time is the fourth dimension in the world. I live in, you know, in the inner present moment you know.

Douglas James Cottrell: 2:10

No time, no space kind of thing. It's always a surprise. But listen, I want to get right to the talk we have. The lines are open my friends 718-766-4421, if you'd like to talk to Dr Tracy, and only Dr Tracy. Tonight. When I was, as I meant, off the top, when I was looking through this narcissistic abuse, it's more prevalent in our society than you know. I realize I'm a mature man. I've been around for a while and I thought I always wondered why women who would be abused would stay with the abuser. I wondered why people would abuse their children and the children would grow up and become abusers themselves. I wondered why people would be so mean, nasty to people and why they would seek to have dominance over others, especially in employment situations, and other fields in the, you know, in human psyche or our relationships with each other.

Douglas James Cottrell: 3:17

So as I was reading your webpage, which is very well put together, it came to me that you're dealing with several different facets of society predominantly with women, I would assume, but that reaches out to other people as well. I would think other situations do this to other too. But when somebody comes to you, when a lady comes to you, I would assume that she's broken. Abuse, narcissistic abuse, is a form of psychological, emotional abuse that is characterized by manipulation, I suspect control and exploitation of someone who has narcissistic personality, and I believe the short form for that is NPD. So when you're dealing with people, when somebody comes to you, they're probably desperate, they probably don't know where to turn, but they're able and capable to seize the moment and reach out for help. Can you walk us through how that first encounter happens or how people come to seek your help?

Joe: 4:21

What happens.

Tracy Kemble: 4:24

You know, the first thing is that I want to kind of clarify to this new audience is that I know so much about narcissistic abuse. Trauma and narcissistic abuse is because I lived it and I survived it and I overcame the trauma of it. And so you know, yes, I have my PhD in psychology but I probably have a double PhD in narcissistic trauma.

Douglas James Cottrell: 4:50

The real one right the real one.

Tracy Kemble: 4:53

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So you know when I went in for help and you know when the therapist asked me what all therapists asked me, which is you know why are you here? The only thing that I could say was I said my brain feels like mush and I feel invisible, and you know what types of you know diagnosis can you go with from there? And this is at a time when the subject of narcissistic abuse what we now call narcissistic abuse, trauma is not in the conversation of psychology or day in and day out in society, and so my journey into getting well was a long haul of what felt like a very long hill, and that's one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about sharing it, because you're not talking 100% of men or women who physically do have narcissism of some sort a disorder, race and sort of what have you, but narcissism itself.

Tracy Kemble: 6:15

It's running at pandemic levels in our society and you can encounter somebody with narcissism. Or allow me just to really enlighten that what we're talking about is a spectrum disorder, so it's not like pregnancy, where you are or you aren't. This is something that it's picked on a spectrum, so we can be dealing with people who have what are called narcissistic tendencies, all the way up to people who have NPD or antisocial personality disorder, sociopath, psychopath, and so that's what makes identifying them the possible narcissists to traumatize you so difficult is that it's a little drop here and a little drop there. There is a saying in the cover that says dealing with narcissism is like having poop in your soup, and poop in your soup is never OK. Meaning the smallest drop of narcissists is just not OK in any part of life, because it can lead to great destruction of destructive measures.

Douglas James Cottrell: 7:26

Well, you know, when somebody's a victim of narcissistic abuse, I'm sure they have feelings that you've just alluded to feelings of confusion, self-doubt, anxiety. And you're being manipulated by someone. Your behavior is to them to help power over you and to further your confusion and then to get you to convince you, the victim, that it's all your fault and they have this conceit. In the old days it was probably called that it was always conceited. But this idea of somebody who's a narcissist, they believe they're the smartest person in the room.

Douglas James Cottrell: 8:12

I would suspect they believe that they're entitled to push people around, and when I was listening to you a moment ago saying you're a pass finder going through this jungle, I could see my gosh. That was pretty difficult. You would go to somebody and they wouldn't have a clue what was going on, what they might dismiss it, what they might say something. This is all in your head or whatever, but, as you said, your brain felt like mushed. So, along the way of, just like I said, these people who are themselves with this disease disorder, do they ever accept that they're the fault, that it's their problem, or do they keep blaming everybody else?

Tracy Kemble: 8:53

Well, you know, narcissistic when you have somebody actually get diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder and before it hit narcissistic personality disorder, something called narcissistic tendencies, which, day in and day out, some of us can flare up and respond in a very narcissistic way, and we also need healthy narcissistic to keep the good in and the bad out, and that's how this can get so confusing. But somebody who has authentic narcissistic, high narcissistic tendencies on up the scale, it's a personality disorder and the way that I like to describe it is. It's no different than dealing with somebody who has a addiction disorder. Is it treatable? Yes, but the only way that a person can get treated is if they first of all that they have a problem.

Tracy Kemble: 9:49

The difficulty with narcissism is that you're dealing with somebody who, because of this false interpretation of self that they have, which is just a protective shield in front of them, that they believe that they are better than people, smarter than people, have rights but other people don't, and so poor and narcissistic to actually humble him or herself and say I have a problem here. It's few and far between. It's possible, but it's few and far between.

Douglas James Cottrell: 10:24

Wow, I would assume that a wife or somebody going to a partner and saying you have an issue. I read something. I just went on Dr Tracy's website and I fit the bill as a victim and you fit the bill as the abuser. So we love each other, let's do something about it. And should that person love the partner enough that they would consider doing that? That must be a heck of an uphill battle for that person to swallow the idea that they're not perfect, that everybody else in the world doesn't owe them a living and everybody else meaning their spouse or their children for that matter ought to do what they say because they know they're smarter, they're better. I mean, I'm sure that that would come in into your practice in dealing with people who would rarely perhaps say I need some help.

Douglas James Cottrell: 11:20

But would it be a couple situation? Would that be helpful, or is it basically the number one person? Is the victim that you have to deal with, which would be the? I'm asking a rhetorical question. I guess it would be the person who's in trouble and you're going to save their life.

Tracy Kemble: 11:38

Yeah, it's, I deal with the men or women. I'm not really ideal. I work with women who have been traumatized by narcissistic abuse and teach them the roadmap out of it, because the one thing I want to point out is that the advancement of the understanding of narcissism has greatly expanded over the years. We're talking about something that's come on to enter into the DSM only a few short years ago with the narcissistic abuse trauma actually diagnosed, et cetera. But that being said, as the sun's holding and discovery of narcissism has luckily gone out of the shower waters and one more studying the condition much deeper, there are many different types of narcissists.

Tracy Kemble: 12:29

So there's the grandiose narcissists, and that's the one that is. You know, research the room and you know, always watch the spotlight on them. There's the covert narcissists, which the covert narcissists would be somebody that you would see oftentimes as a cult leader they can come across. There's a altruistic narcissist. There's a cerebral narcissists, and these are the ones that just think they're smarter than everybody in the room. So it's a little bit like the virus, how the virus kept morphing into the next definition of self. That narcissism has gone that over the years and now there's six or seven different types of recognized narcissism out there and each one you know is a different wolf and shoots closing.

Tracy Kemble: 13:19

Just have to learn to recognize the findings of it so that you can learn to protect yourself.

Douglas James Cottrell: 13:25

Wow, I was, you know, listening to that. That's amazing and I'm sure you've been a past finder in exposing these different categories of somebody being a narcissist. And wow, I was just going through things in my mind of circumstances as you were recounting these things one after the other. Dr Tracy's website is wwwdrtracytv. Stay on the show. Don't go there right away. Listen to the rest of the real show. The website again is wwwdrtracytv. So that makes a lot of sense that there would be these layers or categories and you so profoundly put them out there. Wow, what do we do with people who are narcissists or narcissistic? Or maybe did we just stay away from them or we have to deal?

Tracy Kemble: 14:18

with them in society.

Douglas James Cottrell: 14:20

What do we do?

Tracy Kemble: 14:21

You know, the difficult thing is, you know, in the past, when we thought about narcissistic, narcissistic abuse or people with narcissism, we always thought about it in a couple situations. But, as I said, it's reaching content levels, and so you can have a parent that's a narcissist. You can have a partner that's a narcissist. You can have a colleague that you work with that's a narcissist. Your child could be a narcissist.

Tracy Kemble: 14:50

I mean, it's just all around you. So you know, I'm a firm believer that the past, any type of change, it always comes with awareness.

Tracy Kemble: 15:03

And the reason that I wrote and, yeah, the reason that I wrote Notionary was because, you know, my mother gave me a great piece of advice years ago and she said you know, when our pain doesn't have a name, it's like fighting a ghost and that we can't grab ahold of it and break it or bend it or mend it in our life. But if it has a name, we can grab ahold of it, we can put it into our life, we can mend it, we can heal it, or, if it doesn't best serve us, we can kick it out of our life, never to stop the from this ghost again. And so what I found in Notionary is in the world of narcissism. Is that it really?

Tracy Kemble: 15:44

there are so many things that are painful within the world of narcissism that I never knew had a name, for example, sliding or wood salad, or you know the pink clouds and all these things that never had a name. And so, because it didn't, I would continue to just spiral in these relationships. But once it had a name and I was able to start identifying the characteristics of narcissistic behavior, it was then that I was able to say, ah, and take my measure in being able to protect myself and I understood the trauma that came with this personality disorder and then heal myself. And now you know, living coactively in my life. Do we have to stay away from them?

Tracy Kemble: 16:38

I think it's impossible to stay away from narcissists. You know the old form of recovery with no contact, just absolutely no contact. It definitely shows your detoxing from the narcissist. No contact is highly, highly recommended, but in certain cases that's not possible. It might be the parent of your child, it might be your parents, it might be somebody that you have to work with and for that case you need to understand what you're dealing with and how to hold on to yourself when the narcissist bites.

Douglas James Cottrell: 17:19

Well, I think that's wonderful advice. And again, yes, we have to deal with people in our family and people in our place of employment and in society in general. But the key is, as you've found out through your hard work and through your experience in life, if you can put a name on it or you can understand that it's not your fault, that this is something, that is a behavioral situation with somebody else, then I think an intelligent person can learn how to deal with it and how to deal with that person. Not get upset, go home and cry themselves asleep. When somebody's been beating them up and putting them down and different things, they can say, oh, that's their problem, and they will stand up, I guess, to a narcissist or be tolerant, patient with them. Because I think the one thing, just the first thing you know, is the one thing that they need they need cooperation, they need the victim to cooperate, to be the victim, and if you're not, what do they do? So what happens to them?

Douglas James Cottrell: 18:23

I know you have courses, you have reclaiming me, you have reclaiming your workbook, you have the feminine boss formula. I mean, you've done a lot of work in this and again, for people who are in this situation, you would be the go-to person as far as I would be concerned, and a website is drtracytv. So I've really learned a lot tonight in the interview so far. I'm sure there's a lot more. How long have you been an advocate or a teacher or a healer for people who have?

Tracy Kemble: 18:58

this problem. I've been in the recovery industry. Of course, I'm always the first person in my own petri dish, and so I've been on about a 30-year journey and working with myself and then also, of course, with other people. But you know I want to, it's okay.

Tracy Kemble: 19:21

I want to explain to people a dynamic of why, what's behind a narcissist and why they treat people the way that they do and what is the end goal and how we get stuck in this trap cycle the narcissistic abuse cycle, because there's a very specific abuse cycle that happens. It's different than the abuse cycle and it's called the narcissistic abuse cycle. But before I touch on that, there's something that a narcissist is like a cell phone battery, but if it is not constantly getting charged, it begins to wither away and they start to feel weak and undecluted. And what a narcissist is after is something that is called narcissistic fuel, and what the fuel is is the reaction of people around them that makes them feel visible and powerful. And so what a narcissist will do is the three-part cycle that you know.

Tracy Kemble: 20:40

The difficult thing is that when somebody falls in love with a narcissist, they feel it, they believe that they're falling in love, but what they're actually falling into is just to be a fuel source for that narcissist. And this is this trap that you end up with, because in the beginning of every narcissistic relationship, I call it like the dream girl or the dream boy stage, because it's called the Goldie stage or not and what happens is that when a narcissist first sees their target, how they're identified is and the way that is that they see this person that possibly is very infectious and bright and full of love and empathy, and they say, wow, there's fuel for me. And so they become enamored with their target in the beginning and they gouged this person. It's called love bombing and they gouged this person in. Well, it's false love, it's full love and attention, and they make it's called future facing. They create the future and they really it's no different than getting onboarded onto a cult.

Tracy Kemble: 21:53

They make all these false promises that love them and attention and they put this person on a pedestal and this person has existing wounds inside of them, and so it aligns with their wounds of oh my gosh, you know, now somebody really loves you.

Tracy Kemble: 22:07

And what happens is that this can last anywhere from a few weeks up to two years. And when the narcissist realizes that this person has been presumed and they're not somebody who has been put on this earth to perpetually charge them that, in an instant they will switch gears and they will go from love and adoration to despising the person. And so it switches gears to the second phase of the narcissistic cycle, which is called the deaderization phase, and this is when they just start to chip away at that person's self-esteem and dignity and rights and honor. And many people this is the most dangerous stage of a disciple, because many times an autistic, male and female, or the victim and the narcissist is the victim at this point will get on this track to try to get the original love back. And every time they try, the narcissist will then come back with a warning.

Douglas James Cottrell: 23:24

More abuse.

Tracy Kemble: 23:28

And the biggest thing I didn't understand was that the years that I spent crying, I was feeling the narcissist. I thought I was dealing with a normal person that you know. This is my partner.

Tracy Kemble: 23:41

This is the person that claimed I love me, and you would think that they would see my tears saying your actions are hurting me, as like, oh my gosh, I need to have a wake-up moment. But not the narcissist. The narcissist used that as fuel, as a pay-off, and so this is why the cycle we go on for years and years and years. And then the final cycle of the narcissist is called the discharge, and that is literally they can be quick discharge within the relationship where all of a sudden they'll just pull back and they'll get a threat of abandonment, or they will literally just one day walk out of your life and start up a whole new life with somebody else and never get back.

Douglas James Cottrell: 24:26

And have no remorse whatsoever, just discard right, like you said, correct.

Tracy Kemble: 24:32

They don't really have remorse because they're love-handed cats and they lack empathy. So they have a. They don't. They cannot step in the shoes of another person.

Douglas James Cottrell: 24:45

Okay, well, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. We're talking to Dr Tracy Kimble, who is a PhD and has written an amazing book on narcissism, and you just got to go run out and buy it. Her website is drtracytv. We'll be right back after this.

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Douglas James Cottrell: 26:21

We are talking to Dr Tracy, who is in Greece at this moment in time, and it's in the wee hours of the morning, so we really appreciate you getting up to talk to us here in North America. Thank you very much for coming on the show Dr.

Douglas James Cottrell: 26:36

I know.

Douglas James Cottrell: 26:36

A long time ago, a minister I met once said to me that after many years of conducting marriages that he was of the opinion that women wanted to get a man to the altar so that they could alter him.

Douglas James Cottrell: 26:53

And I was a young man, I was about 22 or 3 when he said that and that kind of stuck in my brain and I thought when people stick it out with their spouse, who is a narcissist, do you think that's what they're trying to do? They're trying to make it right. They're trying to find ways and means to bring that love back in a life, and it doesn't sound to me like that's possible or if it is, it's kind of remote. Would that be along the same lines that women are really really trying hard and sometimes it's just? I guess you need to see somebody like yourself to give that wake up call and say listen, you're in trouble. This is not your fault. You're doing all these wonderful things to try to make this relationship work, but this person doesn't feel or sense like you think they do or like you thought they used to, and maybe what they did before was a pretense. Would that be fair?

Tracy Kemble: 27:50

Yeah, that borders that right against it, and I wouldn't say that they want to alter them. I would say that they want the original love, that they were pitched and so they're trying to get back to the original state that they had. You know, unlike when you're in a relationship with somebody who's struggling with alcohol, let's say, is that, you know, you try to rescue that person from their own choices I think it meant narcissistic and abusive relationships. Is that we're trying to find that original love that, like I said that we were pitched, that you know it's like what happened to that place that we used to have, that was so euphoric, that seems so real, and so you begin to fight for that original love because that's, you know, at the end of the day, that's what we're, all you know, designed to have. Is that interaction of love? But unfortunately it's so love with a narcissistic relationship.

Douglas James Cottrell: 28:50

So when, when ladies come to see you and taking the perspective of a man and a wife, or a woman or partners, is it possible that there can be? First of all, the person's recovery is to get them back on their feet and to make it so their brain isn't mush. Is it possible that they can work out a relationship, or is it they have to, with kit gloves kind of change the relationship and, if it's possible, to continue it, of course. So you know, and looking for hope here, but go ahead.

Tracy Kemble: 29:21

You know it depends on how far up the scale is of the spectrum. Is the narcissist where the narcissist is? If it's somebody who has narcissistic tendencies and they have those moments that they're able to look at themselves, it will never go away. Narcissism is not a curable disorder, so it will always rest in the background and you know it's like the 80-20 rule that if you have somebody who's really?

Tracy Kemble: 29:53

working a program and in therapy and you know they're succeeding 80% of the time, but there's going to be those very self-serving, narcissistic moments where they lack empathy or their thinking is just polarized and etc. It's what are the things that I've noticed over the years is that when you're in the recovery zone, that you reach a point that you say, okay, so I've learned how to hold on to myself, and this person behaves this way and I understand they have a condition and you know, it's not me, it's their condition, but isn't enough.

Tracy Kemble: 30:39

This is really how we want to experience love along this journey and you know that's a personal choice, but it's. They are loved handicapped people and you have to accept that part of your recovery.

Douglas James Cottrell: 30:58

So somebody's always paying the price. And then some people love the other person so much that it just they can't stand the pain of separation or divorce and so they do their best and again they pay the price If that person is further. I guess, if they're at the bottom of the scale, it's tolerable, but as they go up that narcissistic ladder, it can be pretty tough.

Tracy Kemble: 31:25

One of the interesting things about the condition is what we've discovered now is that, as I said, narcissism sits on the spectrum and, you know, at the very far end, at the opposite end of narcissistic personality disorder, is the condition now recognizes self-love deficiency disorder, and that's why you know when people come into recovery. Yes, we're learning about the trauma that you've been through, but what I really focus on in helping people repair their life, it's the journey to self-love, because where self-love is, narcissistic abuse cannot exist.

Douglas James Cottrell: 32:06

Different energies that makes a lot of sense. You know People, I think generally have problems with self-love. You know they're into depression, they're into guilt, they're into you know self-destruction, they're into other abuses, alcohol and drugs to help reduce the pain, and things like that. That makes a heck of a lot of sense. So you're opening a door to self-love. That seems to me that would be like the you know the magic bullet, you know the injection that would get that person who is broken. First of all, give them some direction, give them some insight and then learn to forgive themselves. Would they be? Or how do they, you know, approach that self-love? How do you help them approach that self-love?

Tracy Kemble: 32:57

Well, the way that I have a it's a one-year curriculum and we have weekly classes that take place in a live classroom and the way that I structure the program is there's six modules in the program and I explained that self-love looks like a boardwalk in that there are many planks that make the boardwalk strong. If we have just one plank in our foundation, that we're going to walk like a tightrope in life. But if we the more planks that we have under our emotional legs, we're going to be able to dance and and plant in life. And so every week when people come into the class, we're laying down a new, a new plank in our self-love foundation and, for example, a plank of self-love is a non-negotiable. You know, do you know what your non-negotiables are? A ground zero, which means that we all have the right to have a base, a strong ground zero, in our lives.

Tracy Kemble: 34:00

The rest of the property is is something that people who operate in self-love, that we go into a relationship and we understand that healthy relationships have a give and a take the right to our first voice. I mean, all of these are the different planks that as we lay them down in our foundation of self-love. When we lay those down and we begin to raise our vibration as a human being. We then just align ourselves with narcissistic abuse. It, just, it, just. It's something that our power, our emotional power, cannot. It doesn't crave anymore, doesn't try to fit anymore, and we're just able to enter into our being, which is the only life that we ever have control over anyway.

Douglas James Cottrell: 34:46

Well, I kind of teach from your fingertips to back. You have complete control from your fingertips forward. You know you kind of have influence, so that's about it.

Announcer: 34:54

But that's very interesting, I mean planks down.

Douglas James Cottrell: 34:58

I like that analogy. That's fantastic. It gives you a firm foundation. I guess one of those things just occurs to me to say that, okay, you can't yell at me anymore. You know, if you yell at me I'm going to leave the room or something. Is it as simple and basic as that to start putting those planks down?

Tracy Kemble: 35:14

Yeah, absolutely it's. You know, northern Ireland Mysteries, ter委, yahana, intensely in the indigenous nations, iper people happy. Well, narcissists can't stand being told what to do, but it is telling somebody. It's either sending the message, telling somebody, though they might not respect it, and taking measures, you know, if it's not so much, you can't yell at me anymore. It's setting the foundation that respect. I live with respect. Self-love is the place where there's respect, respecting the communication, and if I expose myself to another human being, there's going to be that again, that reciprocity. In that respect, I will not raise my voice at you. You will not raise your voice at me. If you raise your voice at me, I'm out. That's why.

Douglas James Cottrell: 36:04

I'm non-negotiable. Right To me. That's the place. That's third, you know. Okay, well, we have a caller standing by. The lady's been a friend of the show she dropped in. Okay Carol, you're on the air. Carol's from Chicago, go ahead.

Carol: 36:22

Carol. What I wanted to know is are there more? What's the terms that people are narcissists? And are there more males and females than are narcissists? Hi?

Tracy Kemble: 36:34

Carol, that's a really good question.

Tracy Kemble: 36:36

Well, we don't really have a percentage of who is narcissistic because, again, or who has the narcissism condition because it's a spectrum disorder.

Tracy Kemble: 36:51

So, like I said that, you know, on a bad day my horns could come out and if I'm, you know, running a big project, I could respond in a way that is perhaps lacking empathy towards another person that if it makes me a narcissist, that means that I had at that moment a narcissistic response In my first physical. To say how many are there more men who are narcissists than women? The answer to that would be yes, and that's simply because more men tend to have power, and just the way our culture is raised with the power between men and women that it is found in more men. But there are also a lot of narcissistic women out there and there are so many men who don't understand what they're dealing with because when you take some narcissism, you don't expect you know the traditional definition and ideology of a woman to not have empathy and compassion, and so that it is equally traumatizing to a man as it is to a woman.

Douglas James Cottrell: 37:58

Here you go Carol.

Carol: 38:00

Now I have one more Now.

Douglas James Cottrell: 38:02

I just want to make you aware of Christian Chris.

Carol: 38:06

He was the foremost, I would say. In England you could call him the pioneer of homosexuality, and he was a narcissist. He had to. In my opinion, he had to be that way in order to survive, but not in a way that he was hurting somebody because they always hurt him Are you familiar with. Quentin, he did the movie called Nectar Civil Service. Nectar Civil Service, I'm sorry.

Tracy Kemble: 38:47

Yes, but I'm very familiar in that my girlfriend is doing. She did a big research on him and wanted to do a story about his life, but I'm not educated enough to respond whether or not he had narcissism or not.

Douglas James Cottrell: 39:05

Okay, Well, listen. Thank you, carol. That's a couple of questions. I really appreciate your participating in the show tonight, dr Chris. Did I? Dr Chris, is there more to that? Answer that I jumped in too soon?

Tracy Kemble: 39:23

No, no, no. I think that I need to have the question more, a little bit more clear. I heard about. Can you just repeat the question one more time?

Carol: 39:35

What I was saying. Getting to the fact that, quentin, the question was if you were familiar with him. Do you think he was?

Tracy Kemble: 39:50

But since you're a nurse, yeah, I know that, you know. The thing about narcissism is that you know, in order to get a proper diagnosis you have to really fit and know the person, because again, it's on the spectrum disorders. So because I'm not overly familiar, I couldn't give a clearance on that one.

Carol: 40:16

And have you tried? Have you not been meditating or breathing exercises or something? Have you ever tried that or considered that?

Tracy Kemble: 40:34

In my recovery program, when I believe it's on module three, there's a condition that is specific to the trauma victim of narcissism and most people have heard of PTSD, which happens after a traumatic event. When a person goes through narcissistic abuse, they have a condition that is called CPTSD and there's a very specific recovery program, different than recovering from PTSD. That it's a little bit of a different avenue of recovery and within that portion of our recovery program I do have meditation as a method of healing.

Douglas James Cottrell: 41:22

As they participate in our search for the Nordic Sciences and understanding the human consciousness, which has been my life work. Dr Tracy, we have a few more stuff to go. I promised it to keep you up for an hour this morning and I hope you're holding up pretty good for I guess it must be coming up to four o'clock in the morning over there in lovely, wonderful ways in Greece.

Tracy Kemble: 41:45

So amazing to me we have not yet hit over to daylight stages that we're going on. Let me see. We are actually it is going on four o'clock in the morning.

Douglas James Cottrell: 41:55

yes, Okay, well, you're doing well, very good. So in a few minutes that we have left, we'd like to sort of in a summary. You have these different empowerment and programs. Would you like to talk a little bit about how you, what you offer? How about that?

Tracy Kemble: 42:13

So, first off, the book that I just published, my most recent book, is called the Narchnery and it is the Narcissistic Abuse Recovery Dictionary, because the world of the zone has a language of its own and through this book that I've been able to identify over 350 terms and words that deal with narcissism, narcissistic abuse, trauma, narcissistic personality, as well as narcissistic recovery, the most important part of the journey. I've been in the recovery world for about 30 years and I have an ongoing program. It's taught twice a week on the East Coast time on the.

Tracy Kemble: 42:58

West Coast time. It's called Reclaiming Me and it's the journey from narcissistic abuse trauma to self-love and it's a year-long curriculum. It only costs $10 to attend a class per week and there are six modules in the program and it's a safe environment. It's sexy, an enjoyable environment and when somebody goes to the narcissistic trauma you feel so isolated and alone and you feel crazy and you feel lost. And this is just a very safe community where you can get answers to the brain scramble that you have and you can get tried and communities and, most importantly, healing from the trauma that you've experienced. And it's real. You know that the old saying, the stones can break my bones, but words can never harm me. It's not true. Sticky stones can break your bones and narcissistic abuse can cause the final blows at the tail of self-esteem.

Douglas James Cottrell: 44:08

I'm sure. Well, I like the idea of the dictionary because I've learned as you recounted the several terms that make perfect sense to me, the different types of narcissistic patterns, if you will, from my word. And we have another call on the line here before we let you go if they're looking to ask you a question. But to me, words are power and in the world I live in, you know, if you say the right words you reinforce yourself. And I would think that would be like talking to yourself sort of in a self-heritotic way, not be putting down those planks to the foundation for self-love. I deserve a better life, I'm a good person, things like that.

Douglas James Cottrell: 44:54

Of course that's very simplistic, but it sounds to me like when somebody comes to you, first of all, you're an expert. Second of all, you have gone through the situation of being abused, unfortunately, and I always think that people come here necessarily, but the most important way is exponentially. So you are hands-on, so to speak, and I guess that makes you well. I don't say an expert or somebody who's certainly going to be able to relate to people walking into a certain circumstances, situation and coming to your organization and saying, help me. So, Paul, do we have go ahead?

Tracy Kemble: 45:37

Yeah, I was going to say I built the entire program based literally on my recovery journey From the very first. You know, the very first class in the program is called what Is this? And you know, because I'm walking with therapy and I'm like what is wrong with me? And then when finally I started to get some answers, you know you have narcissistic narcissism and narcissistic what is this? You know what happened to me. That's the next logical. And so I, because I went through it, I think that it empowered me more to be able to really have the empathy than a person who has been traumatized needs to be able to heal.

Douglas James Cottrell: 46:16

Well, nothing like going through it yourself, and you know, from the grassroots up, as you say. I just listening to you recount the steps makes perfect sense to me. You know it's been an education for me tonight when we've heard terms. I'm a friend of mine, jonathan Alderson's been on the show, but autistic children and exploring the myth of autism, likewise yourself has. Not that he was autistic, but he has. From before university he started being involved with children and over the years he has, you know, defined and by exploring the myth he has uncovered the different procedures on how to relate to children. He's had some remarkable recoveries, but the one thing is that he cared and he had a process where, like yourself being a ground breaker or a pass finder, you have to go through it, you have to have hands on. There's no other way. Of course, I think that's what I learned. All the things I do is hands on, and people came along and showed up in my life. I'm sure you've had some mentors in your life as well.

Tracy Kemble: 47:33

Absolutely, absolutely. I didn't do it alone. I you know when the student is ready to teach or present, so you know I have a strong. And the beautiful thing about narcissistic abuse recovery is that there are a lot of physical things you have to do. There's mental things you have to do, emotional things you have to do, but there's also a spiritual journey that you have to go through in order to really be able to cut those ties and build the full trauma that happens to you.

Douglas James Cottrell: 48:07

Well, is it kind of like moving out of codependency into being an individual? You know, kind of for those people who feel like they, you know they don't want to take that stuff and be alone. I'm pretty scary for people who have been in a codependency I would kind of if it occurs to me that might be like it's like open the door, go outside, get in the light.

Tracy Kemble: 48:32

Yeah, it's. You know the, the, the dynamic between a narcissist. The only relationships that can are sustainable in a narcissistic relationship is a narcissist, which is self-deprecate, which would be a codependent, or a narcissist with a narcissist and the narcissist with a narcissist. Those, those relationships normally burn out because everybody's fighting for the mirror. But the narcissistic self-deprecate, as you begin to feel that, that internal self-worth and visibility and value, and you raise that energetic level that it breaks the, it breaks the, the co-addiction that the two you know two sides of those points keep that, keep each other, shock each other. You know, I always say that self-love is the only antidote to narcissistic abuse, trauma, and the same with codependency, that when you feel the self-love you can heal both tycoons.

Douglas James Cottrell: 49:46

Well, we have a couple of callers here, if you feel like staying up just a little bit longer. So, if you don't mind, you might take a couple of questions. Okay, paul, who's next?

Advertisement: 49:56

He's got Joe on the line from Montana.

Douglas James Cottrell: 50:01

Okay, welcome to the show, Joe, you have a question for Dr Tracy I do.

Joe: 50:06

I wasn't listening to the show, but I took a look at your description page and, as I was telling the other screener, it says that she has the only cure for narcissistic abuse. So I'd like to know, and in nutshell, what that is, because there are a number of relationship counselors, one in particular, who have blocked talk shows and they say they can cure narcissistic abuse.

Douglas James Cottrell: 50:30

So I'd like to know what the you know, what this is Okay. So because I'm an editor and a publisher, I'm going to take the word only back and might have said something about perhaps one of the you know, not the only one, but one of the many.

Joe: 50:52

Well, that makes sense. Maybe I just read it for a little check.

Douglas James Cottrell: 50:56

It says right there, it says lead people to the only cure. I'm going to take that back and say whoever wrote that, you know a little bit too much. I would have said it was me. It would be something like one of the okay.

Joe: 51:09

Okay, one of the only one of the few. Okay, no problem.

Douglas James Cottrell: 51:14

So what's your question for you, dr?

Joe: 51:17

Well, okay, in a nutshell again what the cure would be according to her philosophy or process.

Tracy Kemble: 51:27

Yeah. So I don't know if you were hello, I don't know if you were at the beginning of the show, but I was explaining how narcissism is on. A is a spectrum disorder and you know we all need healthy narcissism in order to keep the good in and the bad out. And as narcissism goes on at the spectrum, it first goes into narcissistic tendencies and then emerges on up to narcissistic personality disorder, then emerges on up to antisocial personality disorder, known as sociopath and psychopath. On the opposite end of this spectrum is something that is called self-love deficiency disorder. And what I discovered within myself is, I said one day you know if I'll stop focusing on trying to fix or cure the narcissistic? And I just looked at this thing called self-love deficiency disorder and I just focused on feeling that, that self-love deficiency disorder within myself, what would happen? And inevitably I found that the more that I focused on repairing that, that self-love within myself, it it disaligned me from the same, it disaligned me from narcissism and it broke all the cycles that were keeping that co-addictive relationship alive.

Joe: 52:53

I have to agree that self-love. But what about the people who can't focus on themselves, that they're so traumatized that they they can't rehabilitate themselves and they're always in a in a cycle of of being traumatized, because people have always said, and I've always said, you know, self-love would be the answer just about anything. If you have self-respect, good self-worth, then you're really not going to sit around for anything, regardless of whether it's a relationship or bad colleagues or a bad boss, because I myself I don't have a lot of patience with people in a relationship that have, you know, that display this thing uncooperative behavior. If we talk, we come to an agreement, or if we talk and can't come to an agreement and the particular behavior continues, it's just a matter of I'll at least the baby may. Yeah, bye-bye.

Tracy Kemble: 53:57

This is. You know this is a very common dynamic that my husband is a very type A personality. He says I could never do what you do, christy, because if somebody came to me with the same problem as me, sometimes I'd be like I'm out. You know, book it yourself, fix.

Tracy Kemble: 54:12

The thing about self-love is that self-love is an emotional muscle and when you're talking about somebody who has never been raised in an environment where they have taught, they're again taught what self-love is. It's like speaking Chinese to them. So it's literally coming in and running a whole new language. What does this language look so unsound like? It's a muscle. How do I use this muscle? You know how do I strengthen this muscle, and it's a process that when I take my clients through it, that you start from ground zero. What are we talking about with self-love? What does it look so unsound like? How do we use this muscle? How do we continue to grow this muscle and make it a foundation of our life? You know, one of my non-negotiables of my self-love is a non-negotiable and in order for a person to heal, they have to commit to that self-commit and Mixed and potential.

Joe: 55:23

Well, it sounds like something. Well, yeah, I like that. I'm not in the health field or the relationship field, but I have talked to people over the years about relationships and I've recommended boundaries as one way I tell people. I do not have the recipe for a long-lasting healthy relationship, but I do have the recipe for not staying in a bad one, and boundaries is one of them.

Carol: 55:50

And that's what happens with self-love.

Tracy Kemble: 55:52

That's what yeah, and that's what that is. One of the planks in the foundation of self-love is the boundary.

Joe: 56:00

Yeah, and if you can burst through the trauma that people do have. There's like a lot of times people have trauma and don't even realize that they have it because everything else is their fault, but never her fault or his fault. It's always their fault. So if they can find, out if that's a responsibility for their own actions and without exacerbating the trauma, then I guess it would be on their way to self-love, self-respect, realizing the world isn't as dangerous as it may appear, and maybe be open to a healthy relationship.

Tracy Kemble: 56:35

I would like that to. Yeah, and this is where the outside, getting outside of yourself, is really important. This is where you know keeping counseling on one-to-one counseling, joining a support group where you can hear a new language, you can hear a new insight, you can see other people making stuff to front of you that can kind of give you an example of what those big points in recovery look like.

Joe: 57:03

Would the trust factor be the major goal, you know, for people who suffer trauma, who have been narcissistically abused, for them to trust the outside world? I would imagine that would be the very, very hard goal to accomplish, because it seems to me that a lot of people, even if you give them love, they're always expecting the other people to try out, so they sabotage it.

Tracy Kemble: 57:30

Yeah, well, that's where you know self-trust. There's another point in the foundation of self-love you have to trust yourself, you have to trust your emotions, you have to trust your thoughts, you have to trust your decision-making skills. And again I'll probably go back to with a muscle that you have to learn. And when you learn to start self-trusting, you can then trust yourself to say you know, this is a safe person to be with. Or if I'm with this person and suddenly I'm discovering that they have unhealthy skill sets, I'm out, you know, and that all comes down to self-trust.

Joe: 58:08

I have a recommendation.

Joe: 58:09

Again, I'm not on the health field, but I'd like to have your opinion on it. I have been in many conversations, as I said before, about relationships and I've recommended, once you think that you are, that you do want that other person to be in a relationship with, take out a piece of paper, write down what you like about each other, what you dislike, write down situations and scenarios that you think you might encounter, you know, in the future relationship, to see how you would handle it and to do that so that you can agree on what the boundaries are, on what the behavior patterns would be. And I recommend that because to me, again, if a person agrees to something but then doesn't do it, you know, for me I'd give a person four strikes. There's three strikes around, four strikes around with me. So I recommend that. But again, I'm not on the health field, it's just somebody who was, you know, lived life.

Douglas James Cottrell: 59:12

Okay, well, thank you very much, Joe. You know, I appreciate your comment. We were keeping the good doctor up early. He was in Greece, though she's been doing a little bit of time. We have one more caller, I think to take and we'll let her go. So thanks for your comments today. Joe, Appreciate that.

Joe: 59:32

Sure absolutely.

Douglas James Cottrell: 59:33

Okay, take care and let's go for Montana. Paul, we have one last caller and we have several people in the queue just listening. You're a fascinating interview, Dr Tracy, here.

Tracy Kemble: 59:49

I can take as many questions as you like as long as we have the time, and just a really quick thing is that the book not you know is located on Amazon, as people are wondering where to get the book.

Douglas James Cottrell: 1:00:02

That's a good idea. I'll just talk about that. Well, again, I want to thank you very much, dr Tracy, for staying up in the wee hours and calling, talking to us all the way from Greece. We've had some interesting questions tonight. I've learned a lot. I really like the idea of that recovery, just to make sense to me personally, that I can, you know, understand people where before I would say why would they do that? Why would they say that? Why would they think that? Why does somebody think they're so, you know, smartest person in the room and all those questions. That would kind of throw me off balance. But I think if people were to buy your book and they can get it on Amazon, you said, and I can go to the, can they get it through a website? Do you do autographs on your book? Sure.

Tracy Kemble: 1:00:54

Yeah, I should talk about for book signing one of these times. It is available on amazoncom and that's the best and easiest way to get it. It can ship actually worldwide in many places.

Douglas James Cottrell: 1:01:06

Dr Tracy, it's been a pleasure. I want everybody to go to Dr Tracy's website, www. drtracytv. You will be very impressed and if you're in need, if you feel that you're being abused by someone who has or is a narcissistic abuser, this is the place to go. I don't know if anybody else, Dr, that actually provides such a service, and you've been doing this for a long time.

Tracy Kemble: 1:01:39

A long time, an all first time guest on my desk for the class. If you can get a complimentary class, to come check us out, see who we are, see our methodology of healing, which is all about the journey we're just off of and we're waiting for you. If you need that, try that. Support those answers to you know if your brain is feeling discombobulated. We can. We can bring clarity. We can remain for the ghosts of narcissistic abuse.

Douglas James Cottrell: 1:02:08

Well, sir, I'm Douglas James Cottrell. My special guest has been Dr Tracy Kimble. Take care, and God bless.

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