The Vertical Space

#105 Ben Ivers, Boeing: Airspace modernization

• Luka T • Episode 105

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In this episode, we sit down with Ben Ivers (Boeing’s Director of Emerging Technologies & Regulatory Strategy) to unpack a deceptively simple idea: airspace modernization isn’t optional anymore and the tech to enable “automated flight rules” (AFR) is largely ready today. Ben argues the hard part isn’t the technology, but introducing a new flight mode alongside VFR and IFR that can scale drones, eVTOLs, and future autonomous operations without turning the sky into sanitized corridors reserved for “new entrants.” He explains why Boeing is forced to think in decades and why action now matters if modernization isn’t to remain perpetually out of reach.

We get practical on what AFR actually means: less “AI making decisions,” more machine-guided coordination built on trusted data exchange and automated conflict management. Ben connects AFR to UTM/U-space (“crawl, walk, run”), walks through “before vs after” scenarios across GA, airlines, drones, and urban air mobility, and pinpoints the real bottlenecks, i.e. reliable communications, latency, surveillance, micro-weather, and certified digital services. We close on where value may accrue in a digitized airspace: new third-party services, higher throughput, and an “additive” roadmap that grows the aviation ecosystem rather than excluding parts of it.

Ben:

Playing a role in helping to orchestrate that in a thoughtful, meaningful, safe, innovative, and efficient manner is extremely important. Boeing has the luxury of operating an environment that is unique in that it isn't like the cell phone industry or other parts of the tech industry where the cycles are very rapid. We have an obligation to think very long term. We do it with our defense and our commercial and our space platforms. It's important that we think about the environment that all of these products and services are going to operate within, and to help others who are working in the industry and orchestrating the ecosystem. We need to make sure that those agencies and organizations are also thinking long term. We get to think in the terms of decades as opposed to days or weeks or months. And I think that is a, that is both exciting and humbling and at the same time a responsibility that we take seriously. And I think it's important that we consider all of those future environments that need to be designed, built, and coordinated.

Jim:

Hey, welcome back to The Vertical Space, Today we welcome Ben Ivers from Boeing. Ben is the director of emerging technologies and regulatory strategies, leading enterprise wide safety, regulatory affairs, strategy, and advocacy for Advanced Air Mobility, UAS, autonomous systems, ai, regulatory innovation, and global mandates. In our talk, we discussed the critical need for airspace modernization and Boeing's role in advancing automated flight rules to improve safety, efficiency, and the capacity in aviation. Where we often discuss technology deployments in months or years listen to how Ben talks about the long-term vision required in aviation and with specifically Boeing emphasizing the importance of thinking in terms of decades rather than days or months. He outlines the challenges and opportunities in implementing new flight rules that can accommodate drones, eVTOL, and as well as obviously traditional commercial planes. The discussion highlights the necessity of integrating emerging technologies such as digital communication and automated conflict management, developing more efficient and safe airspace. A little more background on Ben. Ben serves as the chair of the A-U-V-S-I Air Advocacy Committee, chair of the A I A Emerging Technologies Committee Chair of the IC CAIA, advanced Air Mobility Working Group, and Treasurer of the Royal Aeronautical Society, WWDC branch. I. Ben, welcome to The Vertical Space, great having you with us.

Ben:

Nice to be here. Thank you for having me.

Jim:

First question we ask everybody, what's something that very few in the industry agree with you on?

Ben:

it's a great question. Thanks. And yeah, this might be an interesting point. In that some people will probably agree with portions of this and others may not. airspace modernization is critical to the future of aviation. I think a lot of people will agree that with that, that said, the technology is ready now for a potentially new fit for use automated flight rules that could enable increased operational efficiency, safety, and enable new entrants. We see that as being an important element of the future of how our aircraft operate, how new entrants can operate. And as the airspace gets more and more complex and more and more users are taking full advantage of it, a new flight mode is going to be required and the technology is available. Now the need is to get that technology ready and implemented and worked out through a concept of operations.

Luka:

Ben, What's contrarian or the most controversial about this point of view?

Ben:

It is been many years since we've seen any changes in how we operate. Aircraft, Visual flight rules and instrument flight rules have been around for many years. Creating a new flight mode in and of itself is very challenging, and it creates, a lot of questions that need to be answered. A lot of technology that needs to be proven, A lot of operational concepts that need to be proven, and the question becomes whether or not this would be a flight mode that would be available for everybody to use or not. We believe at Boeing that it can be used and should be used by any and all aircraft that. Are, capable of operating in that mode, whether it's a, an aircraft that has, a pilot on board, or it, maybe it's an un crewed aircraft. It could be a general aviation airplane, it could be a large aircraft, that, that flies commercially, both domestically or internationally. What's maybe a little bit controversial is creating a new flight mode in and of itself just creates a lot of uncertainty in how that process would work and how those concepts would mature. The challenge then to the industry though, and to, the world, I would say is that we need to find a way to mature the operational concept with the proven technology, understand how it all fits together, and works together, and push forward with these concepts such that they're beneficial to everybody

Luka:

Are there any lessons, from the past when instrument flight rules were developed? How much was it driven by safety versus the emergence of radar technology and other surveillance technology? What were the timelines for it and how does that translate then into introducing autonomous flight rules? Is it mostly a safety or a technology driven process?

Ben:

I would say it's driven by both safety and technology. when you look back at how instrument flight rules were developed, it was largely enabled by things like radar and other types of communication technologies, as well as onboard technologies that would enable an aircraft to operate in instrument meteorological conditions effectively, weather that you can't see through in most cases. the ability for air traffic controllers to vector airplanes and make sure that separation is maintained at all times. there was a combination of technologies that all enabled those instrument flight rules, which created both an efficiency aspect because aircraft could fly in conditions that they wouldn't normally be able to fly in. In addition, it created a safety benefit. It created opportunities for these aircraft to operate in those conditions more safely than they would before. And it created additional layers of safety because the air traffic services that were provided, would ensure that there's a second or a third pair of eyes on how the aircraft operates. that level of layered approach, creates a very safe structure. Automated flight rules creates a new capability that allows for, more of that automation to take over, allowing, an airplane to fly with a pilot or, autonomously and rely on that technology to maintain safe separation, reducing pilot workload, reducing air traffic, controller workload, allowing for those aircraft to operate in day conditions, night conditions, and do it seamlessly alongside visual flight rules and instrument flight rule procedures.

Jim:

Tell us a little bit about your role at Boeing and your work with ICAO. Give some background to our listeners. I.

Ben:

I lead the emerging technologies and regulatory strategy portfolio of Boeing. it's part of our safety organization, our Chief Aerospace Safety office. And in that group we monitor a lot of the new technologies that are emerging. So we support our efforts, with companies like Wisk, the subsidiary of Boeing that's working on a four passenger autonomous air taxi, as well as companies like SkyGrid who are aiming to, open the airspace for all UAS. And I know you've had guests on this podcast from both of those companies. So with John Brian in the past, we also support a lot of the work that, that drones do at the company. and we have platforms that range from both defense to potential civil and public use aircraft. So we pay close attention to those types of technologies as well as er, other emerging technologies like AI and some of the others that, that are flowing through our system. I also happen to be the member for I-C-C-A-I-A. at ICAO. CAIA is the International Coordination Council for. Aerospace Industry Association. It is the international body that enables industry, so companies around the world to participate in ICAO processes. So, ICAO is the International Civil Aviation Authority. They're a branch of the United Nations and they are, an international group that brings together the 193 states from across the globe to come up with standards and recommended practices that enable consistency and safety of operations worldwide. the ICAO work is broken up into a series of expert groups ranging from panels to study groups. and I am the member for the Advanced Air Mobility Study Group, representing industry. And we have several people from the industry that also participate in that. And I'll highlight that The Advanced Air Mobility Study group is very much focused on creating a holistic vision that involves all different types of new entrant aircraft, ranging from eVTOLs to drones, to, fixed wing autonomous aircraft, and highly automated aircraft. Understanding how those are all going to fit together, what enabling technologies are gonna turn that technology on and turn it into an operational concept that will work worldwide. the plan for that study group is to develop the holistic vision that would be a, an element that will chart the course for other study groups, and other expert bodies at ICAO and then to make a series of recommendations that would drive future ICAO work. ICAO tends to work at a pace that's a little bit slower than the industry. it's very deliberative. It ensures that the member states have an opportunity to weigh in, hear the ideas and the concepts, provide feedback to it. one of the missions of ICAO is to ensure that no state is left behind. And so while there are many states that are pretty proactive about this technology and implementing it, there are other states that, need a little bit further of assistance. And ICAO is a mechanism to help provide those states with the expertise that they need to implement those. so ICAO will spend time developing this vision as well as a series of recommendations. And then once those recommendations are in the hands of the, council at ICAO, then future work will be developed as a result of that. that's where different panels will start to develop the certain types of statements of work for. Those groups, they'll start the authoring of, standards and recommended practices, develop guidance material. And those deliverables, once those are complete, will then work their way to the individual states for adoption and usage by, the individual countries.

Jim:

let's talk a little bit about Boeing. Let's say Kelly, your CEO, wandered into your office and said, why are you here? And what difference will your office make to the future of Boeing?

Ben:

that's a great question So first off, I'd be honored if Kelly actually had an interest in some of my thoughts, but I'll say I think the work that Boeing is doing right now in this space, with regards to creating new capabilities, new aircraft, new concepts, is really important to both our own future, ensuring that we have the right technologies, the right framework, to operate off of. But in addition to that, we need to help create an environment that is expandable, that's scalable. we need to create an airspace that has the wherewithal, from a, both a safety and a capacity perspective to enable these new aircraft as well as further, aircraft that are crewed or un crewed to be introduced into the airspace. The. Environment that we work within is quickly becoming very saturated. We have a lot of new airplanes starting to be introduced from drones to eVTOLs to other types of aircraft. And as those get introduced into the airspace, it'll get increasingly congested. And it's important for the industry and for the worldwide airspace to come up with a mechanism to support all of those aircraft safely. And I think Boeing is in an absolutely perfect position to be able to help chart that course to be able to set forward a vision for what that future will look like. drive research, technology development and concept evaluation. And one of those ways is with. Automated flight rules creating, a new mode of operation that leverages the current technology that's available, as well as the emerging technology to create capacity to create safe operating conditions and make room for all aircraft, to enter into the airspace safely and efficiently.

Jim:

So Ben, a question I asked Jia, who's been terrific, he's been on our podcast, twice, and he's,

Ben:

A bit of a friend, yes.

Jim:

he's something, so a question I asked him is, some of this sounds very familiar to what you did 20 plus years ago. Boeing was, very much involved in, this process potentially of commercializing the airspace give a little bit of a perspective of what was going on 20 years ago and how was it different today than what you envisioned 20 years ago? and, what were the goals of each

Ben:

Yeah, so, I've been with Boeing about 20 years. So I caught the, I'll be honest, I caught the tail end of the air traffic management work that happened within Boeing, but what I'll say is that air traffic management. Effort was aimed at creating, enabling technology to help transform the airspace. That's where there's maybe some commonality. What's maybe a little different today is Boeing recognizes that we aren't going to build those systems necessarily. There are many players in the industry that build those ground-based systems and those individual satellite systems that are, that help enable that sort of thing. they may leverage a piece of technology unlike maybe a Boeing satellite, but we aren't in the business of developing air traffic control technologies on the ground, and radars and those sorts of things. what we see though in this particular world is one, that the technology is ready to enable air traffic modernization. Leveraging digital technologies that have very mature industry players. there are companies that are expert at this, that have matured the technology they need to bring the technology forward. It's important that governments work with them to help build those components, integrate them into the overall ecosystem, understand how they work together with air traffic controllers, with aircraft, with pilots, with different types of operations ranging from crewed to un crewed aircraft. And I think what's unique today is that Boeing has, a perspective that all of this can come together to make our airspace safer and more efficient. And while we may not build all aspects of that. It may not be in our remit to go do that. We have a role to play to help chart that course. And I will say we haven't figured it all out. If I were to profess that, I would be remiss. there are a lot of elements that need to be further developed, in the concept of automated flight rules, but we think we can help facilitate the conversation and bringing all of those elements together, the airspace, the ground systems, the digital backbone systems, the aircraft where the next aircraft and the next new types of aircraft are coming from and how those are developing. All of those need to work together. And we see this as an opportunity for Boeing to play a role in helping to facilitate those dialogues, and trying those experiments out, developing those research and technology, demonstrations to, to prove out that these concepts work the way we hope that they will. And. As we do that, we're going to learn and we're going to evolve this vision and we'll evolve it together as an industry. And I think that's the unique perspective that Boeing brings, which is very different than the way we approach things back in, in the Boeing Air Traffic management days.

Luka:

And in the context of aerospace automation, what do you believe is the single biggest misconception that the broader aerospace community still holds?

Ben:

I would say probably the largest misconception, especially around new flight rules. and you'll hear terms like digital flight rules or automated flight rules, or autonomous flight rules. In some cases, they're all alluding to a new frontier for these types of rules. But I'll say the biggest misconception right now is that they're only being developed for new entrant aircraft. There are many papers out there that describe how elements of these rules could play a role in helping drones be integrated into the airspace or evals to be integrated into corridors around certain types of, cities and, urban and metropolitan areas. We see it a little bit differently. We see it in that you can take these same technologies and enable operations in any form of airspace. You could take these same technologies and say if you wanted to equip your seven series airplane with the right piece of technology and the ground segments already set up, and the airspace has been constructed in such a way that is conducive to this, that anybody can fly it. One of my favorite quotes was when we were having conversations around this concept internally, was from one of our pilots where we were thinking about what would a corridor look like for an air taxi, and if you were to apply automated flight rules in that corridor. he asked a really great question, could I take my 7, 4 7 and flight in the corridor? And everybody immediately said, well, that probably doesn't make a lot of sense. But then as we thought about it more. It became very obvious that we were thinking about this in a constrained environment. We want to try to think about this in an unconstrained environment. Go beyond the concept of sanitizing airspace and only allowing aircraft that cooperate in that automated flight rules mode together. Can you enable automated flight rules beyond just what's in, maybe a sanitized piece of airspace? Could you do it in class G class, golf class, echo class, alpha, class Bravo airspace? if there's an opportunity to take those elements and put those into, an automated flight rules mode, allowing that aircraft to operate with seamlessly with VFR and instrument flight rule traffic. Now we've unlocked something that's actually very valuable because it creates a more efficient and a more safe operation, reduces workload on pilots and air traffic controllers, and, basically enables the entire ecosystem to meet the capacity demands that are coming from, the introduction of aircraft.

Luka:

and and one of the previous episodes when we spoke with Brandon Suarez from Reliable Robotics, we touched a little bit on this automated flight rules concept, Is it a good, summary or, high level characterization of these flight rules that you get the flexibility of VFR with the efficiency and, safety of IR flights? is that the core of what you propose as the automated flight rules? Can you give us a, just a quick overview

Ben:

at its core, a FR is about the automation of conflict management, which will optimize traffic flow, reduce control, or in pilot workload and enable the new entrant, the intention. The capability that will be enabled will be driven from digital information, cooperative practices and automated data exchanges. the individual technologies, can be worked together in such a way to give, a level of flexibility that certainly resembles the best of VFR and the best of IFR operations. think of technologies along the lines of, flight and mission management capabilities. More and more of our, flight decks are getting more digital in their nature. the flight management systems are more sophisticated. They can take this digital information and develop the right routes and plans that would enable. These operations to occur. we've seen a significant increase in capability with regards to navigation, performance, surveillance, performance, those sorts of systems. And as you introduce new systems, like detect and avoid systems that add layers to the already, very robust system of maintaining separation and remain well clear, those can create, a layer of trust that would enable, an air traffic controller to recognize that an aircraft is operating with the right capabilities and to be able to trust that it's going to, Plot a course, execute a course, stay within that course and move forward. there's some really great examples of this kind of work already happening, with things like trajectory based operations, multi-regional trajectory based operations, even things like established on r and p, which, are operations that allow for aircraft to, get onto a path, execute a procedure onto the ground, and have, a limited amount of pilot controller interaction because the controller recognizes what the aircraft can do. and there's a trust that's built as a result of that. If you take that and extrapolate that to a broader set of airspace and more elaborate procedures and take advantage of the new digital infrastructure, both on the aircraft and on the ground, some of these more advanced technologies like detect and avoid and some of the more. Robust communication mechanisms that exist, as well as new data services that are gonna be provided to these aircraft. You can really turn on a much more automated approach to how to manage traffic, within the airspace. it allows pilots to spend less time coordinating back and forth with controllers, and it's requires the controllers to do less, active monitoring of those types of operations down to, the vectors and turns and, allowing that to occur even in, instrument, meteorological conditions.

Luka:

And then some of the, concepts, capabilities and enabling technologies that you mentioned overlap quite a bit with, the ideas behind UTM and U-space. What is the overlap and are those two ecosystems collaborating on this?

Ben:

They are, they are collaborating and there are some similarities. I think what you're seeing in the UTM or UAS traffic management use based environments is, I would say, the crawl before a walk, before a run, taking some of that, automated conflict management, whether it's tactical, procedural, strategic meaning happening at different times of the flight, taking that and extrapolating that to a much broader airspace is I think what you're hearing me talk about with regards to automated flight rules. Now the is is that there's. When you create a UTM environment, you are, you're kind of managing that by effectively sanitizing the environment. you're creating a environment where everyone has to cooperate according to a common set of rules. the challenge, and I think the opportunity that a FR presents is to be able to do that in an environment that's mixed, where aircraft of all different types are operating. There may be visual flight rules, traffic, there might be automated flight rules, traffic. There might be instrumented flight rules, traffic, different types of aircraft that fly at different speeds, at different altitudes and have different missions. all intermixing. And the ability to see all of that and be able to manage all of that through some of these digital means and put that information into the hands of the pilots on the flight deck of an automated flight, roof flight or a ground station operator, for example. and a controller to be able to have all of that common operating picture is what. Create the trust in the system to enable a mixed operation. which is really where I think collectively we want to go. That creates the most, fair use of the airspace. And, now the challenge is getting the technology and the, operations mature enough, such that all the corner conditions have been worked out. Everybody knows what, what's gonna happen and what contingencies might occur, and how those contingencies would be mitigated by, some element of the system, be it onboard the aircraft or on the ground, or through a procedure.

Luka:

And, when you talk about automated flight rules, do you actually mean machine decision making or machine guidance, or is it both? And which part is the harder not to crack?

Ben:

I would say it's more machine guidance than it is, decision making. I, We're not talking about an all seeing eye in the sky. we're not talking about this being an AI that would control everything. This is more of a, a, I would say a broad data exchange and information, exchange that'll, that is enabled by new technologies that can enable pilots, ground station operators and air traffic controllers to all see the same thing, to operate off of that same common operating picture and have the ability to take appropriate action as a result. in many cases, most flights are fairly. Nominal. They're fairly mundane, right? an airplane takes off from an airport, it flies a particular route, it lands. and in some of those cases there, there's very little need for coordination. certainly, as weather and certain other contingencies pop up there, there may be some need for coordination. But having a way to understand how every aircraft might operate in that mode, could enable, a pilot and a controller to, basically understand that there's a dance there that's going to occur. And the technology that enables that dance to occur would go a long way towards automating certain aspects of that coordination. I think of things like, Contingency management of Lost Link in the drone world as being a nice analog to some of the things that we're talking about here. when a drone loses, link with the ground, there are a series of procedures that have been standardized through RTCA and have been, or are about to be adopted up at ICAO as sort of an international standard. those kind of just fundamental understandings of here's what an aircraft is going to do. In the case of a lost link, if you were to extrapolate that same kind of concept to many different ways an aircraft operates, you're seeing a, an element of how automated flight rules could work. a trust that an aircraft is gonna operate. according to its flight plan, and if it doesn't operate according to his flight plan, it has the ability to tactically deconflict with other aircraft. maybe a digital communication is needed, but it reduces the overall amount of communication that would be required. basically enabling an aircraft to, sort of self separate, itself from other aircraft, and reduce the overall workload of both the pilot and the, controller.

Luka:

Assuming that in the, next couple years, the UTM ecosystem matures to the point where it enables drone operations at scale. It satisfies the market demand and things are going well in that layer of the aerospace. what then will be providing the urgency to adopt automated flight rules?

Ben:

Well, at the end of the day, it's going to be a question of how many aircraft can fly safely. as you look at the drone world, we're only now tiptoeing into the space where beyond a visual line of sight. Operations are creating, opportunities for, larger scale drone operations, be it for deliveries, for inspections for other public use aircraft. as the airspace matures and as the aircraft technology matures, you'll see more and more of these evals and some of these others get developed. It's going to create a strain on the airspace. It's going to create, choke points, between both the air and the ground. It's gonna create opportunities for some of these groups to, want to branch out beyond what they're currently operating in. And as a result, you're gonna see a limitation on the number of. Aircraft that can operate. you may see, certain uncured aircraft operating on under IFR, having to file lots of exemptions and waivers and very much limiting how they operate, within the airspace. on long range missions, you might see, aircraft getting routed, on routes that are very air traffic control or preferred because it's a simpler way to manage the approaches. We, see that in, in tracks across the North Atlantic and some other places across the globe. but there's a limit to how many aircraft you can actually put into those spaces safely. being able to enable more direct routes, allowing for, various types of operations beyond just the. 400 feet that, that drones currently operate at, or the maybe very small, limited number of places where an EV talk could operate. create a chance for increased usage of the airspace, potentially allowing for reduced separation standards, those sorts of things. But more importantly, it enables pilots and controllers to have a better understanding of how those aircraft are going to operate with one another. And as a result, you can get more airplanes in the air, and ensure safety at all levels.

Jim:

And since we're talking about a coordinated, efficient, safe airspace, it's a good time to highlight another company making important contributions. Sky Grid is your trusted partner for high assurance aerospace integration. Sky Grid develops third party services that connect and coordinate autonomous and piloted aircraft through data automation and secure digital infrastructure, whether supporting advanced air mobility. UAS operations or next generation air traffic services. SkyGrid provides the foundational technology that ensures safety, scalability, and compliance in a rapidly evolving sky. Learn more about how Sky Grid is enabling autonomous flight at scale h@skyskygrid.com. Now let's get back to our talk with Ben. Ben, let's. in your room, you have a whiteboard, we drew a line down the middle and we said before, and we said after, given your view of the integrated aerospace, given your view of automated flight rules, take our audience through the before and after. Where are we today? And then what do you see in the future? And break it down by whatever categories you'd like, but break it down to the fourth grade level of here's where we are today, here's what the future is gonna bring, and here's the benefit of that change.

Ben:

Happy to, So let's say for example, today, if you are a general aviation pilot and you're only enabled to operate under visual rules, you can take off on a clear day. You can fly the route that you prefer. Hopefully, if the airspace is clear enough to do that, you have a number of technologies you might carry along with you to ensure safety, on your tablet. and you'll have some visibility of other aircraft in the airspace. and you'll execute a procedure. you may be limited to where you can do that procedure and how far you can go. and. If you were to then say, take an automated flight rule concept to that, you may be able to file that flight plan, go a little bit further, fly at a slightly different altitude, one that might be a little bit more preferred. You might be able to mix with other types of traffic that, would normally be, prohibited or you just wouldn't have a chance to encounter. You may be able to fly, to places that you currently aren't able to fly, those sorts of things. another example might be if you were a commercial jetliner. So say you're a commercial jetliner and you wanna fly from one country to another, and there's a notion in between. you may be currently restricted to a series of tracks that exist, that are pre-coated and pre-established by air traffic control, in various, countries along the way. And you have a flight profile that. Basically gives you an amount of time that you're gonna be in the air as a result of it. And so that would operate under probably an instrument flight rule procedure. And in, in an a FR world, you may be able to take a completely different route. One that might shave off, an hour, or more off of a fairly long flight, that has a material benefit to, an airline. It has, a reduced fuel burn. It has, a customer satisfaction element of, a passenger or cargo getting to, a destination, sooner and maybe more on time. and it also potentially creates a, Both a more efficient and a potentially more safe environment in that, a controller doesn't have to, pay as close attention to your operation. when you are operating under an instrument or flight rule, the ability for a controller to trust that you're gonna, follow the procedure because you have the enabling technology and you have the, that common operating picture information in your hands, would allow that pilot to, to execute that procedure pretty seamlessly, and ensure that they get to their destination with the least amount of, communication as necessary. Another example could be the drone space or the eVTOL space. So you look at some of these uncured aircraft and how they operate today, you may find that the, the current drone world is limited to 400 feet and below. increasingly there are larger and larger drone operations starting to occur, carrying cargo that's increasingly heavier. in the United States, there's discussion around allowing, beyond visual line of sight operations up to 1,320 pounds according to the current part 1 0 8, proposed rulemaking. more and more of those aircraft are gonna want to get into altitudes that are beyond what the current limitations are allowing. they will wanna get there because they can fly a little bit further and have, more capability to, to deliver, cargo to its destination. and an a FR. Type of a construct, you could have that aircraft operate and it wouldn't create a, an undue burden on the air traffic management system. if you were to look at the eVTOL space, the plan for most of these eVTOL companies is to create lots of opportunity for operations to occur, in and around cities. with fairly high frequencies. there is likely a very real limitation to how many of those operations can occur to and from various destinations. the tempo, the rate at which they can operate, the total number of airplanes that can be in the air, the separation requirements creating, an automated flight rule regime would allow for those aircraft to operate at a. More reduced separation at a higher tempo, allow more different types of aircraft to operate within the airspace. And more importantly, it would enable people to have more access to those operations. I've got about a 45 minute to an hour commute every day. And the ability to do that, in maybe 10 or 15 minutes is significant. if you have to go to the airport, from someplace, and it takes you two hours to get there, the ability to have that option to take those flights and reduce them to 15 or 20 or 30 minutes is, is a real material benefit. there's gonna be a lot of people wanting to do that. Once the technology has been approved and certified, an automated flight rule regime could help make that more accessible to more people because there's more opportunity for those operations to happen safely.

Luka:

And, and when you're assessing progress towards airspace automation or integration or a FR, what metrics do you track most closely?

Ben:

Good question. probably the biggest thing that we would pay close attention to is the communication aspect of the system. making sure that the data flows from either ground segment components, weather, other types of radar systems to the aircraft, to the ground station operator, to the air traffic controllers. And having the ability for that information to be common and shared amongst everybody is important. So, that data needs to be accurate. It needs to be from the right places, it needs to be. In the hands of the right humans at the right times. So latency would be an important element of that. In addition to that, there are different types of communication mechanisms. There's obviously VHF voice, there's other types of digital communications, datacom, those sorts of things. the ability to leverage that would go a long way towards helping, cut off any corner conditions that might exist. there, there will always be situations where, a nominal flight procedure is never going to work. you might have weather pop up, you might have some event that occurs on the ground. Having the ability to leverage those communications, while still operating under that automated flight rule mode will be important to making sure that the automated flight rule concepts can achieve reality.

Luka:

And now we're introducing a new segment, a quick q and a with our sponsor, sky Grid on the digital infrastructure required to scale autonomous operations.

Jim:

How do we develop advanced term mobility, digital infrastructure with the right level of assurance for safety critical applications?

Brenden:

Well, firstly, we need to treat data and services like we do avionics. We need to certify them such that they can be used reliably. You know, this requires us to move away from those kind of best effort applications to Certified third party services with defined assurance level. So, you know, I think automated data service providers under part 1 46 as introduced by the FAA and verifiable integrity latency and availability of that data. So we need to architect for defense in depth, which you know, means authenticated data sources, deterministic pipelines, health monitoring, and you know, fail operational fallbacks for optimal security. As well as apply, you know, aviation great practices to software development. So requirement traceability, hazard analysis, verification and validation, and continuous assurance across releases. So at the end of the day, if it informs safety of flight decisions, which is a must, if you're going to rely on increasing levels of automation for scale, it needs the same rigor as a flight computer does today.

Jim:

what are the immediate operational technical infrastructure and or regulatory challenges as advanced air mobility operations grow?

Brenden:

Well in the near future or that kind of immediate. Uh, challenges that we need to overcome is we need to make v FFR style airspace more machine readable and keep a TC workload consistent to where it is today, and not increase it at an operational level. We need to integrate high tempo a a m without increasing control, workload shifting routine separation to automated services. You know, at a technical level, we require resilient communications, low altitude surveillance, micro weather, and robust detect and avoid logic that works and is complimentary to ground services. So for infrastructure, we need to, uh, more ground sensor networks, reliable connectivity and data distribution with service level agreements. And finally, regulatory guidance is really required to define clear roles and responsibilities for operators and third party service providers. With pathways for one to many vehicle supervision, the success will be measured through higher throughput with no extra strain on the existing infrastructure and air traffic control while maintaining the level of safety. The community rightfully expects in aviation.

Jim:

Okay, let's get back to that. Talk with Ben. I really liked your before and after that made some things more practical, at least for me. What element of what you're doing should be done completely by commercial? what element of it should be done in concert with the A NSP or the government, and then what should be left to the government itself? Let's say the powers that be in the FAA, were listening in right now. What would they say? You're leaning a little bit too much into my job. And what element of it would they say it's critically important that the commercial side take on these roles in order to make sure that the automated flight rules are successful?

Ben:

That's an excellent question. To be clear, automated flight rules is gonna leverage everybody in the industry to, to make it happen. there isn't, I would say a dramatic transfer of, authority being proposed in an automated flight rule concept. What you would see is, increasing usage of automation at all levels. where I see there being a bunch of opportunity is for air navigation service providers to leverage the automation that would turn on the common operating picture. have. Aircraft coordinate that same level of automation onboard their aircraft and for, airports, verti ports and other ground, air ground interface places, place where you take off and you land. Those sort of locations are gonna need some of this automation as well too. This concept really tries to marry all of those together. and whether the air navigation service provider is a government entity or a privatized entity, that's certainly something that can be flexible and will work. However it works in those portions of the world. I don't think this concept precludes it being, more commercial or more governmental in its nature. What it does is the concept is intended to try to coordinate those technologies together in such a way where when you put them all together, you create this new mode of operation. ICAO will play a key role in this as well too, in that. Looking for that harmonized approach that works in all the different mechanisms, whatever those happen to look like, be it, a government, A NSP or a privatized NSP, or even maybe a privatized company that's enabled by, an A NSP, for example. Whatever those mechanisms happen to be, and the aircraft capabilities as well as the airport and ground segment capabilities, all of those just have to happen in concert. And whether that falls under the umbrella of a private company or a government, I don't think it matters that much. At the end of the day. It really boils down to do they all work together collectively and can they, enable the operation as we'd like to see it, the benefit that the concept that we are. Discussing is that it is flexible, it's flexible enough to allow for all those different permutations. And I think the role that you see groups like ICAO and some of these other agencies, will play, especially in the research and proving of this, is to ensure that it happens in a consistent manner, as much as possible. Globally.

Luka:

Ben, how do you expect companies to make money from a digitized airspace or. Or a FR, and and how will the existing value chain be impacted?

Ben:

I think there will definitely be opportunities for new players to jump into the space. we're already seeing, various companies activate as, UTM service providers. Other types of third party services get created. One of Boeing's subsidiaries SkyGrid is focusing on turning on services that can enable, all types of autonomous operations to occur in the airspace. Mainly aiming at potentially enabling, a FR down the road in the future. there are companies that can play this role. Now, whether those companies offer those services or an air navigation service provider, maybe contracts with some of those companies is, I would say a decision that needs to be made from region to region. the automated flight rules concept is flexible enough to support all of those, and I would say the other benefit or the other opportunity that this concept can create for, Current players and new players is really just the increased number of aircraft that it could enable. the increased number of safe operations, the increased tempo that it could create. So all of the companies that are building, commercial jet liners, general aviation, aircraft, drones, ev talls, and all the other permutations amongst those, those have the ability to create more aircraft, more ground stations, more air ground interfaces. the companies that support the logistics of the cargo, the logistics of the people. All of those play a role. and it, the simplest way I'd like to think about it is it grows the pie, the overall aviation ecosystem pie. instead of creating, a bigger slice for one particular group or another particular group, it grows the overall pie so that there's opportunity for all current players and potentially new players to make money in that environment.

Luka:

and is this, Boeing's primary, idea of value capture in just expanding the, pie I making the market bigger and therefore, benefiting indirectly you know, more aircraft, in operation, higher density of operations.

Ben:

Boeing sees this as an opportunity to ensure that our current airspace evolves in a way that supports safe operation and growth globally. That will have a material benefit to a lot of different entities. but more than anything, it's gonna ensure safe operations. It's gonna ensure that, as more and more of these aircraft get into the airspace, they have the ability to do so in a safe manner. increasing strain on the airspace can create safety risks, and we see the opportunity to potentially alleviate some of those safety risks by creating new modes that would enable some of these new operations, or current operations to work more seamlessly. the potential benefits of that, which is allowing more and more, Aircraft and different aircraft types to work seamlessly together is a benefit that supports the whole globe. but we see this as very much a meeting, the current challenges of today and tomorrow. that's the real reason why we're having this conversation.

Luka:

And Ben, how did the efforts around, fully integrated airspace and automated flight rules and broadly digitization of the airspace, how does that overlap with, things like for flight and G which was recently sold How does internally the, company view the boundary between some of these pieces of the puzzle?

Ben:

So there's a great example of a situation while the work and the benefits that are created by things like Four Flight and Jefferson and some of these other, Either handheld applications or data services that exist, whether they belong to one company or another, or they're part of a service provided by a government in a different place around the world. All of them have to work together. And whether or not they're all under one umbrella versus not. it's a little bit less material. It, at the end of the day, they need to provide the right capabilities, that the ecosystem needs. and whether that's a part of the Boeing umbrella or part of a different company, I think that's okay. And at the end of the day, we'll end up with, if we see the, if everything works out and we end up in an a FR concept of operations, we have the ability to have flexibility with. Whether it's company A or company B or some government agency providing that element, it'll all work together in a seamless manner. the idea would be that it would be flexible enough to support whichever organization wants to provide that capability, and leverage it for the operation of the airspace.

Jim:

Ben, what's the contrarian view? To what you're articulating, whether it be the AU automated flight rules or let's say Boeing and being involved in this whole process. what would the skeptics say?

Ben:

Good question. I think there are several who are wrestling with the idea of these new flight rules as being something that can be either absorbed into the current. Flight rule regime. So I've heard several folks, mention that like, why can't we just simply modify instrument flight rules to support some of these kinds of operations? can't we just, do some of these kinds of operations under waivers and exemptions? and while you can potentially do some of these under waivers and exemptions, I think the impact of modifying a current rule set, VFR or IFR to support these kind of operations is that you run the risk of excluding some aspect of the ecosystem, some community of aircraft that are operating under those rules that maybe can't meet the requirements of carrying this additional equipage on the aircraft. Maybe they don't want to put a detect and avoid function on their aircraft. Maybe they, live in an area where, the automation isn't available, to support an a FR operation. we don't want to get into a situation where. Those operations are precluded. what we wanna do is create, a new mode that enables for more capable aircraft and more capable operating environments to enable these operations to occur seamlessly so that it becomes an additive component as opposed to one that becomes exclusionary. the airspace is a is a shared resource that everybody, who currently uses it takes full advantage of. we don't want to create an airspace that, begins to exclude certain groups. And by creating, a new flight mode, you have the ability to create something that when equipped appropriately, when planned for appropriately, when managed appropriately, one can execute to. So say you're gonna fly a an IFR flight route. The same way you do it today, you can, but if you have the right equipage on your aircraft and they air navigation service provider and maybe a third party service provider provides the right data to you, and you have the right common operating picture, you can operate a little more efficiently and a little bit more safely under an A FR regime. But the ability to do that and have both of those operate at the same time and be able to see each other, manage the risks accordingly, that's the benefit. it becomes an additive feature as opposed to something that might become exclusionary.

Luka:

What do you think is a realistic timeline for a major airspace jurisdiction, whether this is in the US or Europe, to achieve these new automated flight rules?

Ben:

That is the million dollar question, isn't it? it's not the easiest thing to predict. I will say that. It's gonna be a real challenge to determine what's the speed at which it can go. I wouldn't predict a particular timetable. I think this is the kind of thing that is, a bit of a journey. It's going to take several organizations, government agencies, research organizations, industry organizations working together to develop the, demonstrations, the experiments, the technology, make sure it all weaves together in a meaningful way. Maybe it's the kind of thing that happens in the next, sometime in the mid middle of this century. It's hard to say. it will depend greatly upon how quickly we think we can actually do the work together. And I think this is the call to action here, is that we need the industry and, government agencies start thinking about this now. Taking action, doing the research, building plans to demonstrate this capability. and, over time we will get there. It's too difficult to say exactly when it would happen. it's gonna take a long time. It's not overnight, but it's the kind of capability that if we don't start now, it'll forever be in the future.

Jim:

So forgive my near term itis for a minute here. So, let's go back to Kelly and let's say he's speaking to the JP Morgan investment community, and you're articulating your vision, which sounds very exciting. You've talked about the value to the community. You've talked about some of the value to Boeing, and let's say an a an investor said, listen, I've heard of this concept of the automated flight rules. I know Boeing is having a lot of recent successes. Why would you spend time and money on this right now when, near term shareholder return is so important? Why is this something that may come about 20 years from now, but what's the return in the next couple of years? And why is Boeing spending time on this? how would you advise Kelly to answer that?

Ben:

Boeing has always looked to the future. While there are always challenges in the near term, with regards to, Running a business, maintaining a business, building, selling and maintaining aircraft services and other capabilities. We have an obligation to look to the future, to look to the environment that we currently operate in, and the environment we're going to operate in into the future. One of the most interesting and exciting things about aviation, is that the lifecycle of most aircraft, especially commercial aircraft, is very long. Most commercial airplanes are designed to last for 30 years, and so as we think about the current aircraft that are built, the future commercial airplanes that are going to be built, we're looking 40, 50, 60, 70 years down the line and understanding how that environment is going to work and. Playing a role in helping to orchestrate that in a thoughtful, meaningful, safe, innovative, and efficient manner is extremely important. Boeing has the luxury of operating an environment that is unique in that it isn't like the cell phone industry or other parts of the tech industry where the cycles are very rapid. We have an obligation to think very long term. We do it with our defense and our commercial and our space platforms. It's important that we think about the environment that all of these products and services are going to operate within, and to help others who are working in the industry and orchestrating the ecosystem. We need to make sure that those agencies and organizations are also thinking long term. We get to think in the terms of decades as opposed to days or weeks or months. And I think that is a, that is both exciting and humbling and at the same time a responsibility that we take seriously. And I think it's important that we consider all of those future environments that need to be designed, built, and coordinated.

Jim:

How much of what's being done with automated flight rules is facilitating the investments in Whisk? how important is what you're doing critical for the success of Whisk?

Ben:

Great question. Whisks mission is to create an aircraft that enables operations in the current environment. Whisks initial operations do not depend on automated flight rules to see the light of day. they have plans to develop their aircraft to operate within instrument flight rule mode, with waivers and exemptions. most eVTOL companies are aiming for, of visual flight rules or instrument flight rules depending upon the type of aircraft they are. None of what we're talking about in a FR is absolutely required for these aircraft to fly. When we talk about a FR, what we're talking about is the ability for aircraft like whisk, other types of aircraft similar as well as other types of aircraft, commercial, general aviation, drones, et cetera. To scale up in a safe and efficient manner in the airspace to be able to provide more opportunity for those aircraft to fly, operate, seamlessly. It's not a near term need. It's a long-term imperative. It's the kind of capability that's going to make the overall aviation ecosystem more efficient and safe that enables. People to realize the benefits of that flight, whether it's a cargo or a passenger movement operation long term creates more access to people to fly.

Luka:

I really liked your comment about, having to look ahead and have a long horizon because, it's so true if you assume that it takes, a decade plus to develop a new aircraft, and then there's an expectation that the aircraft will be in service for, I don't know, 40, 50 years. You're really looking decades into the future trying to anticipate what the market will look like and ensure that you build a product that will address the market need at that time. very, very difficult thing to do. And so, I mean, when you think about these big bets, in the context of automation, what do you think is the big bet that Boeing should be able to Gamble, its existence on, but it is so critically important.

Ben:

It isn't one piece of technology. I think as we look to the future and how our aircraft are going to be designed, built, utilized and maintained, and as well as operated in the airspace, it's a combination of things. Automation and autonomy have a, an important role to play in the future of civil aviation. we're taking a very deliberative approach to how to handle that technology. we wanna protect human life and we wanna ensure the safety of our products. There are many technologies that have the ability to support that mission. It isn't going to be one element. it is going to be a bunch of enabling technology that will make a new airplane model capable, a new operating mode possible. And we're seeing that similarly in the air traffic control space, the air traffic management system, the air navigation service provider world is. Becoming increasingly digital. there's still a lot of roots in the past with analog systems and paper processes that are becoming more and more digital and they're leveraging current levels of automation, new layers of automation that they may even leverage. some technologies that are just still, emerging right now. think of quantum computing and some of these other capabilities that have a lot of promise down the road for faster information flow and processing those technologies roll together and create new opportunities. So when I think about what Boeing is an investing in and what. Kind of an environment that our new products are gonna work in. And what's the right investment? It's gonna be a bunch of things. It's a suite of technologies. It's a suite of operating concepts. it's a, an eye for operating, with a human in and on the loop, in some cases, in, in a way that doesn't put the human in a bad spot.

Luka:

I'm thinking of the big bet with fly by wire that Airbus made, early, in the eighties and how that really paid off strategic. For the company. And so what is the equivalent of the fly by wire bet in this century? Is it being first to certify, machine learning on an aircraft? Or is it the first to enable, aircraft with less crew on board? What do you think is, The thing that bubbles up?

Ben:

I would say the biggest and most important element is going to be how we approach automation. How we leverage automation both onboard the aircraft and within the ecosystem. With Whisk, we are exploring what it means to have a remotely supervised aircraft fly. that level of automation and autonomy is an important pathfinder for how the next set of aircraft, both across the ecosystem could play out. Those technologies have an opportunity to dramatically improve how our aircraft currently work. Many of those automation technologies have the ability to. Improve safety, close safety challenging areas. improve runway operations, improve operations in the air, eliminate risk that currently exists, create more efficient use of the airspace. Will there be smaller autonomous aircraft in the very near term? Very likely, yes. Will that translate to larger aircraft? In my lifetime, probably not where that lands in the long run, It's anybody's guess, but the development of that level of automation and capability is going to be important to ensure that we have a product that meets a market's need and is valuable to both the customers as well as providing. Smooth operations in a safe manner.

Jim:

you have a lot of entrepreneurs on the podcast right now, and people are thinking, oh boy, this sounds like an interesting advancement. What kinds of companies do you think will most benefit, or what kinds of technologies are needed that we don't have today or just developing today, that you would say, work on these things and you'll do well?

Ben:

good question. Well, I'll first start by whatever your interest level is. Please start with safety. our industry is, amazing. It does some incredible things, but safety is our lifeblood. So whatever endeavor you decide to jump into, make sure that safety is at the forefront. I think the opportunities that Automated Flight Rules presents are that new types of digital services can be created for either an air navigation service provider, for an airlines operation, for a. Airport, Verta port, other types of players on the ground, those have the ability to create some real value in this new world. And I think the opportunity to provide those services, to build the digital backbone, to help integrate those technologies together, working with government and non-government agencies are really important. And I think it's imperative that the industry work closely with government organizations, higher level international groups like ICAO to ensure that the technologies come to fruition and work seamlessly together.

Jim:

Ben, was there anything that you were dying for us to ask that we haven't asked?

Ben:

I don't think so. yeah, I think we've covered most of the big stuff.

Jim:

and, how would you like to summarize the last hour or so we've been together? What would you like to leave with our audience?

Ben:

I'll repeat kind of what I started with. airspace modernization is critical to the future of our industry, and I think there's some really amazing capabilities that are coming together that can enable things like automated flight rules, and they're needed now. the technologies needed for automated flight rules are ready now. They are mostly mature and all that needs to happen is the industry to work with governments, to work with other organizations to do research and integrate those capabilities together that would make this future a reality. Airspace modernization is critical and without it, we're going to be challenged to meet the growing demand for goods and passenger travel, both domestically and internationally.

Jim:

Very good. Ben Ben, thank you so much for joining

Ben:

Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Yeah. Hope this was useful. Thank you very much.