Ilham Kadri: Today I'm so happy to be speaking with internationally acclaimed artist, Claudy Jongstra, who uses natural materials and natural dyes for self-harvested plants to create beautiful fabrics and artworks that connect people to the earth. Claudy fabrics have been used by some of the most well known designers such as Christian Lacroix and Donna Karan, and they were even worn by the Jedi in Star Wars Episode 1. And her work has been included in collections at major museums like the Rijksmuseum, the Victoria and Albert Museum, the Museum of Modern Art, and more. I truly believe that businesses can learn so much from the arts. Claudy, you are my very first artist guest in this podcast, which I launched, you know, a few months ago to speak about AND is the future and how AND can be powerful. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited for this conversation.
Claudy Jongstra: Thank you for the invitation. I'm also very excited that we have this incredible podcast. Thank you also.
Upbringing in the Netherlands and early love for color, nature and art
Ilham Kadri: So, as you already know, cloudy, I'm already a huge fan. We had a conversation together. I looked up your work and, and your story and your work is absolutely beautiful. Not only the colors, they just stop you in your tracks because they are so vibrant, so incredible. I grew up in Morocco, so colors for me are so important in my life. And we'll talk about your art of course, but first I wanted to get to know a bit more of Claudy to ask you about your upbringing in the Netherlands and what sparks your interest in color and nature and art.
Claudy Jongstra: I was trained as a fashion designer in Utrecht, and when I graduated, I tried to design my own collection, very small collection and, but it was very difficult because also at that time, speaking about the late nineties, then, you know, the fashion industry was already, you know, going a bit over the hills, like fast fashion was everywhere. So if you are a designer of a small collection, you have to be part of that system. So very soon I realized that was not, It was not possible. So, I tried to work in the industry for four years. I explicitly say I tried to work because there is no slowness, I can say allowed in the industry because at the end we had to design like eight collections a year. So every month producing so much, and I was questioning myself, what am I doing? Is this part of creating? And also, seeing and confronting all the materials, you know, placed on the market, all these fabric fairs. And there was so much, I mean, I think there was too much. And then, I was having very second thoughts about, is this something I wanna commit myself to? At that point, I saw an exhibition in a museum in the Netherlands. It was about wool, and I saw these incredible ancient wool, from Mongolia, and I've never seen some, I had never seen something like that in my life, and it was blown away, and I found it incredible that people have and still do live in these woolen shelters, nomadic tribes, they just roll it and pack it, and then you go from one place to the other. It keeps you warm. And, I realized many, many cultures have had a lot of very positive experiences with, of course, with this natural material. And, I stopped that fashion career and then, I committed myself, completely to the world of wool. That was, that was for me the moment I saw it and I knew, this is something so special. Yeah, this is it.
Ilham Kadri: And I remember you once said that your teachers discouraged you, right, Claudy, from creating art, and you didn't listen. I'm so glad you didn't, by the way. Now you are famous. I mean, no regrets on fashion. I mean, you are doing something else and you are still connected probably to this. How, how does it feel?
Claudy Jongstra: Yeah, I think, it can have a big impact on a person when people say, I mean, when people discourage you. I think when there is a potential and you see sparkling in an individual, I think you should immediately stimulate that. And even if you, if you have any doubts or, I think it's very important that people experience processes and the end result I think is not relevant. I think the process of whatever people are doing is so interesting in processes you have, that’s a learning path. And I think you come across so many challenges, you learn a lot about yourself, and it's not about success or winning or succeeding. It is about enduring and confronting and having patience and reflection and growing and evolving. I think that's more interesting.
Creating sustainable art from materials on a farm
Ilham Kadri: Yeah. What a leadership lesson. I like it. I always say, I mostly focus on my journey rather than the destination, and there is lots of learning. What's impressive is that, I mean, what is impressive is that you are truly creating that sustainable art. All your materials come from the sheep on your own farm and the colors are created from plants that you've grown yourself. I know you are engaging with farmers. Can you tell us more about the farm, the materials you collect from it?
Claudy Jongstra: Yeah. So, working with wool, I felt it as a need to be around the sheep, to see them, to study their behavior. This specific herd, is a very ancient breed. And what they actually do is, They maintain the landscape. So it's a very ecological way to maintain the land. And, so the herd is amazing and the quality of the wool, because we have, they graze and live in a natural reserve. So they have no transport, they have no stress. That immediately reflects back to the quality of the wool. So we see a lot of conditions around systems have an impact on qualities, and this is one of it. And, after, a long time working with the wool, there was this second moment in my life where something very special happened and it was the moment I experienced natural colors from plants or roots or flowers or leaves or barks. And yeah, by coincidence, I discovered them. And then for me, there was a world opening up. I never saw, so vibrant and even glowing colors. I mean, you don't see them in your natural environment anymore. All colors we see are being made chemically and there was a completely different language in that natural colors coming from plants. They have a lot of layers. They're not one dimensional, so sometimes you see different shades and they always connect to their environment like a natural bouquet. Flowers in a space. They always go with the environment. They're never there, you know, very, they're, they're modest. So once I got a very interesting compliment from an architect from New York. He said, your work has no ego. And, I think that's because the materials and the sources our work and come from is nature. And nature has no ego.
Making beautiful plant-based dyes/colors
Ilham Kadri: Yeah. Wow. And what a leadership lesson there, there are few already. Wow. Since the beginning. No ego and obviously leadership. And I'm sure it resonates with the people in the audience here I watched one of your YouTube videos, of you making the natural dye. It's just amazing. The colors are incredible. And I know we already talked about this. It reminds me so much of the beautiful colors you would see in the market in Morocco where I grew up. But also there are special places in a few parts of Morocco like Fes and Marrakesh where they produced dyes. I don't think they produce them as sustainable as you do, and you talk a lot about how important color is in connecting us to our past to nature, to each other. And one thing that I found so interesting is that you are actually using the same natural pigment that the great Dutch masters used, for instance, that distinctive, vibrant, deep blue color, beautiful one that you can see in the painting of Vermeer and Van Gogh comes from, you know, those natural dyes, which is the natural dye plants. And, that's what provides color to your own art rice. Can you tell us what does it mean to you to be using the same natural colors of the great Dutch artists.
Claudy Jongstra: I can be open about it, but it's like when you work with these manuscripts coming from even before the 15th century, it's like the holy grail if you reveal these manuscripts and we work together with a lot of scientists from different universities together. If you are in the process of these historical reconstructions, there is so much to learn about also a community living. I mean, in these recipes descriptions of how they define time processes. They would, they will not say stir in the pot for 15 minutes. They would say three times a Pater Noster for example, like a prayer, which already emphasizes a lot on the, yeah. The way that people were connected to what they were doing during these processes, it was not something they did on the side. It was something really, you know, with dedication and care, with a lot of caution. And it was very often like a ritual. And also interesting in these recipes you see a lot of different ingredients coming from a lot of craftsmen. So there was a lot of reuse of waste materials. There was no waste in the 15th, 16th, 17th century. Everything was valuable. So I think for me, it's also very learnful to see. People were so creative in using ashes from a wood oven in a natural, dye or even, sour dow or waste from beer brewers always being used and people would spend their whole life just skilling themselves in, you know, in specialism. They were so good in, in, in making these colors. And I think, yeah, you can obviously see that in the, in the paintings. I think they have an everlasting quality. The quality is amazing and it's also sustainability. I mean, they still blow you away.
Ilham Kadri: Yeah, they're still, they're last longing, right? You've often said that, and you told me that the heritage of natural dye making, which frankly I ignored until I talked to you and did some research later, has really declined to the point that maybe only a few people in the world, in the humanity, right, on earth, still know how to do it. So this requires a lot of research. What was it like for you to reconnect with this heritage and bring it back? Trying to bring it back to life.
Claudy Jongstra: I think it's so beautiful to have a connection with this incredible indigenous knowledge. I mean, this is for me, like a world connector when you speak to people. For example, we did a project in Amsterdam in the Southeast with a group of women with very different backgrounds, very multicultural backgrounds from Northern Africa, but also from Syria. I mean, when you speak about plant-based dyes, they immediately know. They reconnect again, and they revalue again because through natural colors and textiles your identity can be expressed and if you put this into something, you know, very, in a very, in a condition where it can really evolve and it can grow, I think that's for a lot of people, very valuable. But, it's very often that people, do not know of it, have an unawareness of it. I mean, since the Industrial Revolution, plant-based dyes, have not been, on the radar. And it's also not on in any, you know, political dialogue. I think it should, because if you see what we do for example, with farmers projects in the Netherlands, but also in Germany and in now in Spain, whereas a lot of potential also for farmers to look to alternatives and to change the landscape literally via diversity. I think it can have a huge impact. I mean, impact for change is very nearby, but, yeah, I think the young generation, I mean, they still know maybe, unconsciously and saw it from their grandparents, that they did these processes of sewing, of making colors, preparing food, you know, taking the timeframe because the time consuming processes. I mean, after this generation, I think, that's really, this is gone.
Creating the Jedi costumes for Star Wars
Ilham Kadri: Yeah, absolutely. And of course the dye that was once obtained from the woad plants is now created by synthetic products. And I'm a chemist, so we are, at Solvay is a chemical company, but we are trying more and more to use circularity and be powered by nature. You're right. I mean, in the 17th century, there was no waste. I grew up in a country with a grandma who told me that we didn't have a luxury to waste. And as you've said, synthetic dyes in fabrics can pollute the environment and this gets us to the real fast fashion and the importance of creating sustainable fabrics, reducing the carbon footprints of the fashion industry.What are your thoughts on how we, you know, the fashion industry can become more sustainable? And speaking of fashion, I would like to, I'm sure everyone watched Star Wars episode. I mean, all these guys are really well known. What was the big moment for you having created the Jedi costumes?
Claudy Jongstra: Yeah, it was amazing. I mean, yeah, I learned a lot from my experience becoming also an entrepreneur and as an artist, it's fantastic to, if you can live, you know, from your art. And even now we have the studio. We have 20 people working in the studio and on the farm, and it's always, you know, you are always looking for interesting prospects. And this was in the beginning of my career. When I went to England, to London, because, there is a big value. There's a large value for wool and also for color palettes and vibrancy in textures. And, I showed my work in an office and somebody passed that office and looked inside and saw my materials, and that was the designer of the costumes of Star Wars. So it was being on the right spot, in the right moment, in the right place With, also something, she found it original and, I had many of these moments, you know, but the generosity of people always helped me a lot. And, I think, that's very important. And we try to do this also in our studio. We have a school now. A school for arts and crafts connected to agriculture. We try also for, for young students to share our networks, to show them and to also to coach them in their philosophy. I think that's very important.
Art and circularity
Ilham Kadri: Yeah. Coaching, educating, connecting people. I mean, wow. Let's talk now about circularity. And you know, we are just learning to unlearn in the chemical industry and relearn and how we can use circularity, as a way because we've been growing in a very linear world, right? Specifically as engineers and as scientists and learning circularity, frankly, a big game changer for us. I always say when you reuse a waste, it's not a waste anymore. I know you are taking, I'm talking about circularity, taking many waste material from farmers, from beer brewers and using them to create your dyes. Can you tell us more about how you create the ecosystem, which we can learn from it, how it can be sustainable as an ecosystem? Yeah, please.
Claudy Jongstra: Yes. I think it very often starts with, being part of, even if it's once in your lifetime, being part of a process of making which, in which all ingredients are in a very organic way connected to each other. And you can find that in making the natural dyes, because you have to work on the farm. You have to harvest, you have to desolate the pigments from the plants. You have to forage and go out and see your neighbors and you have to experiment. And then, at the end you have also result in the vibrancy of the color palettes. So what we very often do is in education. People can be part of this process of making, if you literally feel from seed to fiber, then you feel the necessity of, you know, that processes are being reconnected again I think, because of the whole world as being segregated, all elements and satellite projects are developing self, you know, on their own, entity. I think it's very important even to experience once the natural connections. And this is what, where we emphasize we have a big emphasis on, in our school, people from business schools come, I mean, different backgrounds, all different types of people feeling somehow now, the urge to reconnect of course. But if you literally are part of a holistic chain in making, I think then you can also, you have then the opportunity to change and also to make decisions in a different way because yeah, you have to do it one time, for yourself experiencing this holistic path. And I think then you can have a very fruitful decision.
What can businesses learn from art
Ilham Kadri: Yeah, no, I love it. You know, Claudy, one of the objectives for this podcast is about how businesses can become both sustainable AND profitable. Cuz people, they always put this in opposition, you have to be green, sustainable, no profit. Therefore the problem is that it doesn't last long. And then profitability is pushed very often against sustainability and I think Claudy that you provide a great example. You just talked about your entrepreneurship and how you can live with it, but also build an ecosystem. So obviously your art produces revenues, but your revenue model is a bit different from what you are used to, including protecting the environment and bringing the people in touch with nature to also create that win-win and make that ecosystem long lasting. What are the big hurdles, but also can you tell us more about the big learning lessons which can inspire us in, you know, traditional businesses?
Claudy Jongstra: Yeah. For me it's also still a long way to learn from that because, we discovered when we produced, recently we had the largest crop the Netherlands had experienced in the last hundred years of the European indigo. So we had that this season. And then you process that European indigo from the plant, and then you have a color. You think, oh, this is, you know, Vermeer standing up again. And, then you have to find the market. But the market is still very used to this linear, economical process and infrastructure. So people immediately compare the price of the pigment to, you know, to this parallel to, for example, cause there is no competition, but they compare it to a synthetic dye. And there I think, there's a lot to learn because, the value of the pigment is not only, what does it cost, but also there is, transferring knowledge, the vitality of the soil, all the efforts of the farmers. Diversity, you know, there is more in the pigment than the revenues are, you know, in different value system. I think this is a very important dialogue we have to start with the market and if the fashion market is ready for that, I think then we have also, for farmers alternative, I think a very good example at the moment is Patagonia, you know, I think 90% of the profit now is going to ecosystem changing, you know, innovations. And I think that they, the money is earned somewhere else, but you, this is fantastic. And then, you can also, you know, invest, because investing in the future is investing in the ecosystem. So I think we hope for finding a partner in fashion or interior to work with these natural pigments. And then that they, that they are not being seen as a very expensive, you know, product because this is the reason why they are all, why they're gone, because you cannot digest these pigments quickly. It's not about, it's not about the linear timeframe, it's about the, not horizontal, but it's the vertical timeframe where you should, in that context, you should see these pigments. So there is a new dialogue. I think we have to start with each other.
Connecting art and education
Ilham Kadri: Yeah. And I would like you probably to talk a bit more about the community aspects of the work, which was, just, you know, intriguing and fascinating to me because on your farm you really have a great community, not only of interns, students and artists, but also farmers. It has actually grown into a movement. And, I know you are very active in education, Claudy, which, you know, it connects us as well as my door exit from poverty was education, right? In my own life. And particularly for you in a school in the northern part of the Netherlands where you are helping to change the curriculum. Can you tell us more about your connection with education?
Claudy Jongstra: Yes, we have developed a different curriculum in which all these ingredients, all these ingredients are part of. And, you can make, you can adjust their tailormade to any group who is coming to us. But the impact of this education is that people, revalue. I call it maker’s activism, especially I think also in Belgium, but in the Netherlands. I mean, 80% of all young people is being highly educated. So we don't have any makers anymore, and the makers wanna be, you know, they also want to go to university. But I think, I believe a lot in the quality of making, you know, because in making you find, you find identity, respect, you see immediate result craftmanship, that's so valuable for society, I think because, yeah a beautiful wooden sculpture. I mean, aesthetics is something that, I think is very important also, to experience for everybody. And I think it's very easily, you can very easily, wake that up because we have so many, young people coming from different backgrounds or, or socially, you know, very, how do you say, vulnerable, but if they come to us and they experience nature, I mean, it's they are healing qualities. Last year we developed a beautiful project for, we call it newcomer immigrants, connecting it also to, you know, indigenous knowledge that a lot of them still know. And if you take them so seriously and if you, if you believe in that quality of making, you know, then you see something different happens and the stories are coming, you know, the traumas are being, they speak about what happened to them. And then you see a lot of that has a lot of impact in working in a garden you have different conversations. It's in a very informal setting. People are very open. They feel safe. So a lot is happening there. And do we value this? I think at the end, yes, because it has a big impact also on your individuality.
Secret to success
Ilham Kadri: Yeah, what an example. And it resonates, I'm sure a lot, with all of us when we are facing an unbearable war, raging in Europe. We need to help. You said a lot, Claudy, and I think business leaders, um, like us, can learn a lot from art. You are a woman, an artist, an entrepreneur, an employer, and inspiration, and definitely a leader and a role model for many and for us, definitely. How has your work evolved over your career? And if you could share with us some of your secrets, you know, wins and sobering moments, right? To help our youth listening to you.
Claudy Jongstra: Yeah, I think, very important of, when I reflect back, I see that I was very loyal to my early principles. And even when there was no perspective, when nobody believed in wool in the beginning, I kept on, yeah, committing myself to something I found truly precious. And because I had so much respect for that material and also for what it meant, I needed to, because I didn't sell it to anyone, to just anyone walking by, but always finding the connection. You know, architects, I admired fashion designers, I thought, okay, when it's in your hands, the creation will be, you know, honorable. So it was always very loyal to the material and to the quality and also, very often I didn't exactly know where I was going, but I followed it. And then when you are back later in two, three years, you think, oh yeah, now I understand why. But it's very often difficult to explain to people around you, because you yourself, only know that you have to do it and you have to stick loyal and to be patient also. That's something I have to learn too, because I'm very impatient when I feel, you know, there is a pressure also losing so much knowledge and beauty. I think, yeah, for me,this is the moment also to really, you know, work with people who take five steps ahead and really make an impact.
Artist role models and favorite work of art
Ilham Kadri: Yeah. Wow. Determination and the beliefs are important. I can continue this conversation for long, but let me finish with the following. We know you were, and you have been highly influenced by the great Dutch artists. Do you have any other artistic role models in your life and if you had to choose one of your works of arts as your favorite, if there is one favorite? Sometimes it's difficult. It's like the kids. What would it be and why?
Claudy Jongstra: Yeah, an incredible inspiration for me was Magdalena Abakanowicz. She was from Poland. I saw textile in a sculpture that embodied for me an incredible artist because she made, it's called Abacons. It was, for her, also, yeah, how the impact of war on, it was during World War I had on people and these sculptures, when you see them, I mean, you immediately feel what people endure when they are in a war situation. And it was so, yeah, that struck me so intensely because the textile has such a powerful medium. And, so I knew, that's being a fiber artist. I mean, for a long time. Yeah. I mean, it has not always had the value I think it deserved. But, she, Magdalena for me was an example, a woman in that period, you know, needed to make, you know, these sculptures because it was healing, it was, it was for her. How do you deal with trauma and very impactful and one of my most favorite works is, Fields of Transformation. That's in the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. The largest piece is 20 meters by six. So that's a huge impact you can imagine. Space. It's a library for students. So, it's, we get a lot of, also, emails and comments, that it's, that people, experience, the space as being very warm and it opens up, you know, a whole new world. Also in the tactility. And you can imagine it's very warm and, yeah, it brings up also curiosity, because immediately you do not know what it is, what you're looking at is the fresco or is the painting, it's painted with fibers you can say. And, due to the scale, you can, yeah, it has huge impacts on that environment.
Ilham Kadri: Wow. And what a magic word transformation. The industry, the chemical industry our industry is engaging into one of its deepest transformations ever. So, thank you for finishing with this. And you mentioned curiosity as well, which is part of us as a scientist. Thank you so much for joining me, joining us today, Claudy. There is so much actually business can learn from you on sustainability, circularity, on the crucial connection to the earth, nature, but also between human beings and on creating beauty to simply beauty and you also taught us to learn from our past to build a better future. This was truly a fascinating discussion. Thank you so much. You are an inspiration. Thank you for inspiring us today. Thank you.
Claudy Jongstra: Thank you,