Ilham Kadri: Today I’m delighted to welcome explorers Gilles Denis and Nathan Goffart to the And is the future podcast for what I’m sure will be a fascinating discussion. Last year, Gilles and Nathan set off on the Nanok Expedition, a unique six month triathlon consisting of 3 disciplines: ski crossing along the Arctic Circle, kayaking at sea and vertical climbing across Greenland. By the way, their mission went beyond just exploration. They also collaborated with well-known institutions and universities in Belgium to provide in situ measurements and samples for climate research. Solvay is very proud to have sponsored Gilles and Nathan on this exciting expedition… and I can’t wait to hear about their incredible adventures. Gilles and Nathan, thank you so much for being here today.
What is the Nanok expedition
Ilham Kadri: So for those in our audience who may not know, can you briefly, in few words, explain the Nanok expedition and how did you come up with the idea for Nanok, why Nanok?
Nathan: Yeah, of course. But I think you explained it very well. But, if I need to give one sentence to explain Nanok Expedition, it's really a untypical triathlon in wilderness, Greenland, and of course you have two other parts of that. So wild untypical triathlon is because it had three parts on the project. First of all, it was a sport project with polar expedition, like you explained. We did 450 kilometers crossing from west to east, the Greenland so it was a glacier, very cold temperatures…weather was quite chilly, like minus 42, minus 45 degrees. We had, the second part was the kayak part, like you said. We did about 600 kilometers on the west coast of Greenland. And well this was paddling throughout big Glacier from Glacier. It was just amazing. And the last part was the climbing part, so, well, for the people who know climbing, we call it, doing a big wall. Yeah. So, what we did is we did a wall that you need to take several days to climb it and you sleep on the wall. Other than that, we also have an important scientific part and human part on it, scientific is because Gilles and I, we wanted to give a purpose about environment and climatic change. And, while we find the idea of the science, because they need a lot of data and stuff like that. And, and we were there for that. So, it was amazing. And Human is about the movie and we wanted to, to give the message to people, to push themselves to be more perseverance, resilience, stuff like that. It was really important for us to give to say to the people you need to believe you need to dream. I mean, it was a dream for us and we gave everything to do it. Yeah. And if we can do it, you can do it. So this was a bit, the message.
Ilham Kadri: Was that dream scaring you at all?
Nathan: Yes, of course. Because it's been a long time preparing. Yeah. And, and even when you are into it, you never know if you can succeed or not. But it's, I think it's good to be scared. You give more and more.
Ilham Kadri: Yeah. Of course. If not, it's not big enough.
Nathan: Exactly.
Ilham Kadri: I'm asking the question to our team, they know. I said, dream big and if your dreams are not scaring you, they're not big enough. What about you?
Gilles: Well I think you asked how it started
Ilham Kadri: Yeah, you know, the origin of the idea
Gilles: So the origin came in 2016. The first time I went to Greenland. I discovered this place that was huge and absolutely amazing with infinite possibilities. And, along with the place and the people, I discovered three sports disciplines that really appealed to me. And I started thinking how I could put this together into one big great expedition. My whole life until then has always been trying to figure out a way first of all to find my very own path. I have the necessity to build my own path. And then secondly, try to have a positive impact in the world. So there was this idea and looking at adventures, I thought this is really the best job in the world to be able to inspire people to be the best version of themselves. And so I wanted to be one since 2008, since I was 18 years old. And I tried the Arctic. And so I obsessed over this idea of putting those three sports disciplines for two years. And I didn't have the skills, I didn't have the knowledge, I didn't have the necessary endurance or physical capacity to do this thing. It was way beyond what I could achieve at that moment, but I knew that I trusted the process of taking small steps towards my goal. However, big and ambitious and crazy it was, and I did what it, the only thing I knew how to was I gave it a name, I put a date on it. I gave it a name to the expedition.
Ilham Kadri: Why a name? So can you explain?
Gilles: Because, if you can identify very clearly and giving a name to something is identifying, recognizing it. It's the first milestone I think.
Ilham Kadri: And why this name?
Gilles: Well actually, so the Nanok Expedition, we chose it together two years later. So originally it was called the Greenlandic Triathlon.
Ilham Kadri: So, you said a name.
Gilles: So give it a name. Put a timeline so put a date on it. Make it real.
Ilham Kadri: What was your first date?
Gilles: The first date was slightly earlier than the reality. It was for my 30th birthday. So 2020, two years earlier.
Ilham Kadri: Okay, so now we know your age, so a bit earlier, but you continued and then ?
Gilles: And then name, timeline, and then talk about it. Because if you want to put something out into the world, out into reality, it's not enough to, you have to get it out of your head and so you have to talk about it. And so I started doing social media and talking about it and saying out loud what I was going to do even though I didn't have a partner and there was no question I would do this alone. And then I started training, believing that taking those small steps would eventually lead me somewhere. And I started training and hope and hoping that in doing all of that, I would, I would be able to inspire the ideal partner, which came two years later.
Ilham Kadri: But then when you start talking about it, what was the response? Were people telling you, you're just crazy, right? Or people say, ah, it's another dream. Let's see. What was the reaction of people around you or social media?
Gilles: The reaction is interest. Because I believe in, you talked about dreaming big. I believe in the power of dreaming big. Dreaming really big. Because if you dream big, people either think you're crazy or they think you're a genius. But in both cases, you leave a mark. And you impact people. And they look at you differently. And that's something that I think is very powerful. And so some people will think, you know, its crazy, other people will maybe thinking, wow, this is maybe something that will happen. And it's amazing.
Scientific aspect of the expedition
Ilham Kadri: This is very profound dreaming big. Go after your passion, and go and plan for it. Plan to win. So you collaborated with several scientists for climate research and in fact on the expedition, gathered data never before collected in such conditions. And this is a significant contribution to science and our understanding of climate change. Could you both tell us about it and how was it on the field? Can you share some data results?
Gilles: So it's a bit too early for results. The scientists need time to do their own, to digest all of this. We just handed them the samples, the measurements. Now they have everything. But what's really satisfying is it, it started really small at the Royal Observatory of Belgium. And then it started growing and gathering interest
Ilham Kadri: So, you started in Belgium, right? Here in Brussels in the Royal Institute. And then it started to blossom?
Gilles: Yeah, exactly. And then we ended up having five experiments with four universities, four Belgian universities and one research center in Denmark. And, I think it's a bit long to explain exactly, what was done, we came back with, we made, in situ measurements. We collected data, we collected samples in five different experiments. And what's really interesting is, saying it started small, but now the scientists are employing PhD students to work on those data. So it's getting really, into something serious. So but on the field, it was really good to have the science for us on the field because it became really important. It became a source of motivation. Purpose. When things went slightly sideways with the kayaking part, which we couldn't do it on the East Coast for permit reasons and stuff like that. Then we switched mentality. We were really looking, that was a hard time.
Adapting to the challenges of the journey
Ilham Kadri: It was sobering moment it looks like. Why? Because you couldn't get the permits and you couldn't go on the path you planned for it, right? So you had to change plan, right? Adapt. So how you helped each other? What happened?
Nathan: This is a good question. Well, it was one of the hardest stuff we had on the expedition. Because I mean, you prepare yourself for four years. The kayak part was one of the big parts actually we had to do. And, we were really trying for that, willing to do that because nobody did that before for just one people, 20 years ago. So it was a big challenge. And we were ready for that. And all of the sudden, two weeks before we go, they say, oh no, sorry, actually you cannot do it anymore because we forgot to say that you need a permit. But we didn't give it to you. It was like, okay, we need to change all our plans. We are in the middle of nowhere. How are we gonna do that? And so, yeah, it's difficult to digest. Yes, yes. And so we had to, well, find a way to redo something. And this is good. I think in all big expeditions, I'm sure everybody has this moment of difficulties.
Ilham Kadri: Of course it never goes as planned, right?
Nathan: No, exactly.
Ilham Kadri: Did you have a team behind you on the backstage supporting you on this?
Nathan: Yes and no. Yes and no. We did everything together, so, so yeah. People were there to support us, but I mean, not to help us.
Ilham Kadri: So, coming back to this, I think your thought process were saying I had to change my plan. You, you talk to each other, you find a new way, but you had science as an objective, right?
Gilles: Exactly. And that's what saved us, is we thought, okay, now the kayaking part, the more adventurous side of it is slightly lost. So we are going to go full on with science, which is great because in the end it turned out that the kayaking part got really interesting in its science aspects because we focused everything, we tailor made this new kayaking itinerary based on the science that we wanted to perform. And that was eye opening. And, we did far more during this kayaking part than we could have done on the East Coast where we would've had a lot of pressure, rough times, not so much the mental space to really perform on the science.
Opening a new path on a 550 meter cliff
Ilham Kadri: So outstanding. So what you're telling us is you readapted very quickly. You reimagine the path. You find, obviously you had the purpose of science, but science took even more space. And we're a science company, so our science auditors here from the audience from Solvay, they will love that you prioritize science to kayak, although I'm sure there are a lot of Kayak fans, but, but that's interesting on that path, how you reimagine. So all the pictures of your expedition are wonderful, but I especially like seeing the ones of your climbing adventure, where you open the path in a massive 550 meter cliff, which will make it safer for other climbers in the future. You were hundreds of meters in the air for 11 days doing this. And my favorite picture is the one of the two of you in your tent in the sky above the clouds, looking up at the northern lights. I love this one. I think I need to have, you know, a nice signature on this. That must have been the most incredible experience, right? And you gave the new path a great name. Can you tell us more about that?
Nathan: Yeah, of course. Well, like you say, climbing was just insane. I mean, the landscape where we were, it's amazing. I need to put it in context, but I mean, you are 400 meters in the middle of a cliff. And you have, when it's good, good weather, of course, huge view on all the valley and the fiords that's coming in. You are 2000 meter high in sea level, and you see the sea. So it's quite rare for that. You have a glacier on your right. On your left. Sorry, on the right. If you go a bit further up, you see the ice cap. And huge mountain everywhere. So Wow. And like you say, in the nighttime you have like big sunset, big sunrise, cloud, sea clouds, and also northern lights. So amazing. So yeah, it was quite incredible. And now for the name we call it Immaqa.
Ilham Kadri: And what does this mean?
Nathan: It's a bit, like we can say Inch Allah. It's like, well, I don't know. We dunno what will happen tomorrow. Let's see. Never know. And why we call it for three reasons. We call it this name first of all, but we want to give it, an Inuit name of course, in its words. The second is we quite experienced that during a traveling and position, like, logistic problems and stuff. Like, we were like, okay guys, where are our stuff? They’re coming tomorrow? Well, I never know maybe tomorrow maybe not. So we experienced that quite a lot. And the third one, is, well, people maybe don't know exactly what is opening a new route and climbing a new route, but climbing, for me, opening a route on a cliff is really a step in the unknown. What I mean is you never know when you're climbing where you go and go to, of course at the beginning you look to see the cliff and say, okay, we can go there. But when you are on it, actually sometimes I climb 10 meters, my protection is10 meters below. And I'm stuck. I cannot go any further. I say, oh no, I cannot go there where I need to go left? Right? And it's Immaqa. Let's see, let's see what happens. You don't know, but you need to continue. And I think this is quite a good way.
Ilham Kadri: It's about you know, focus on what you control, what you don't control, Immaqa. I might actually steal it. And, that's be present in the moment. So it's even more important when you are in those unique situations, right? So what about you?
Gilles: I really agree with Nathan. It was, those views that we have this experience up there. Sometimes I had to slap myself to realize this was true.
Ilham Kadri: How many photos you took, for example? Thousands?
Nathan: Not so much. Not much, not so much.
Gilles: Because when you are in the wall, everything needs to be attached. Yeah. Because Yeah. Hundreds of meters high. It's vertical. You're always hanging. So cameras, those things are not easy to deal with. You can drop your phone. You can drop the camera.
Nathan: More than that, maybe it's a bit selfish, but I mean, it's in my head, it's, it's the image in here. I don't want to take the picture and not profit from the moment.
Incredible natural sights
Ilham Kadri: But we are happy that you took some for us, right. On that note, you must have seen many inspiring sights in nature that the rest of us can only dream of. What was that like for you? What's your preferred one?
Gilles: In my head? Well, there was this moment where we visited this glacier front in Kangaamiut fjord. So in the south of Greenland there's a fjord called Kangaamiut And there's a glacier front that comes all the way to the sea. And, this is a place I had been to since 2016 every year because I'm working there guiding, taking people to this particular field and glacier. And, but seeing it from a kayak with Nathan and then that year especially was amazing because it was, it was both absolutely incredible to see, but also quite frightening. You would see those huge pieces of ice just exploding and popping out of the glacier front and falling into the sea, creating huge waves and it was cracking and banging everywhere, like cannon shots and it was very, very, very powerful. But it was also so active. I had never seen it so active in all those years. And, actually this glacier has retreated so much. You could see the difference.
Ilham Kadri: So you could see the difference and actually, so for skeptical of climate change, you've seen it.
Gilles: Yeah. I actually, one of the most obvious signs that we saw was again during the kayak part. We had a map, a topographical map from 2001, so 21 years ago. And we had selected carefully with the scientists, three fjords that we had to go to, and we had to paddle all the way to the bottom of the fjords, to the glacier front to go and collect the filtered samples for them. And doing so, we realized that each and every glacier front that we had to go to were five to seven kilometers back from where it was indicated on the map. So if you make the math seven kilometers in 21 years, that's 300 meters on average per year and that's how much it retreats and if you consider the number of glaciers around Greenland that's insane.
Never giving up
Ilham Kadri: It's insane. So that's a great fact you bring back, you know, as an observation and obviously the urgency of climate change and you know, we are part of the industry and we are part of the problem, but the solution and we need new solutions to reimagine. I imagine that during those five months there were many, many ups and downs. Was there ever a time you were tempted to give up? If so, what gave you the strength to continue to overcome these difficulties? And also I wonder, looking at you both, you are friends, buddies, when did it start? Were there times where you agreed to disagree? Were there disputes? Tell us a bit how it works. Is there a leader in this couple?
Nathan: To give the answer for the first question I don't think in any moment we wanted to give up. For sure, but of course we had some difficulties and some problems on the way. So it's obvious and how you can cope with that. The first one for me is the training. Actually when you train you fail and now you know what is, what is it? And so you are ready for that? And actually it's good to be ready for that because you can give everything on the day when something bad happens to continue and go forward. So it's a bit like sport people, professional sport people, 90% of the time, it's the training, and 10% of the other time, what they do is they compete and they try to succeed, but of course it's never succeed. Sometimes it's a lot of failure, and one time you succeed, but they get trained for that and they are willing to do that. Then exploration is a bit the same and you need to try to get that in your mind to mean that yeah, of course you can fail. It's normal to fail because it's risk. And it's for this that not a lot of people are doing that. But you’re doing it for that reason also. Yeah, because it's risky and failures exist. And I think that the second point is you need to go step by step because you can fail at something, but that doesn't mean that the expedition is a failure. Sometimes you can miss a part, but if you keep going forward, keep thinking about the next step and not looking backwards, you can continue and you can say, okay, I have a lot of stuff to do yet.
Ilham Kadri: And Gilles did it already, right? I mean, he was there. He accommodated. It was your first experience there, right?
Nathan: It was my first polar expedition.
Ilham Kadri: So did you rely more on Gilles you know, knowledge, know how?
Nathan: Yeah, this is the good fact between him and I. Yeah. I mean we’re good friends, but also I think we have a really good complimentary between the skills, the strength and our weakness. And so together, I think we, for this, we doing such a good teamwork.
The power of the AND
Ilham Kadri: So that's the power of the AND, that’s the objective of this podcast. So tell me the AND. You and you, where are you complimentary? I know Greenland, non Greenland, so that's clear. What else? In the skills?
Nathan: I mean, he knows a lot more about the knowledge about the cold that I didn't have. So you need to know that in the cold will, cold temperature, you need to react and act, well really, really well, and you need to know all of that. And so he had all the knowledge about that with this Yukon expedition and what he did in the past. And I dunno, for well, for myself?
Gilles: I think the way I see it is I was the older one with maybe more of the experience in the polar expeditions, polar regions in Greenland in itself, kayaking too. But, as much as I have faith in my projects, my dreams and we all have our moments of doubts and I'm someone who reflects a lot, puts myself in question a lot. Yeah. And so I would describe myself as being more like the old guy with the knowledge and the experience. And then Nathan came to compliment that in the most beautiful way, being this extremely dynamic, energetic, with an optimism that can move mountains.
Ilham Kadri: Could you have done it without him?
Gilles: No, of course not.
Ilham Kadri: And vice versa, right? Very interesting. So that is the complementarity which supports you.
What can businesses learn from exploration?
Gilles: Yeah. And I think if we're talking about business or leading a project, to have those two people is very strong. The guy which has infinite faith in himself, infinite trust in the world, in himself, and motivation. Lots of energy. Obviously Nathan had more of an athlete background than I did. And then they have the guy that is more paused, that will think and look at every detail. They can be very perfectionist, but also, sometimes too much. So you have this complementarity, it gives a balance. Pushing and knowing when to stop.
Ilham Kadri: Amazing. What a wisdom. And indeed it speaks to the business people. We are scientific people. We are, because you're right, you are both moonshotters and a hundred percenters because you need to be precise and detailed. You have this complementarity. So what you accomplished is certainly not for the faint of heart. And in many ways it was a risk, right? It takes a certain mindset, a lot of preparation, a lot of resilience to risk forging new path or going into the unknown, as you mentioned, Nathan, and in a different way, businesses also need to take a risk and push the envelope, and I've always said that we can learn a lot from explorers like you. What lessons do you think business can take from your experience?
Gilles: Well, if I can answer that question, I think a lot of the elements are in your question. There are many parallels, I'm sure we can do between the way a businessman or woman approaches his or her business and the way an adventure approaches this expedition, even more so with an entrepreneur in his startup. I've heard preparation. I've heard risk management and resilience. You said, you talked about the unknown and for me, that I'll refer to dare to push the boundaries, go further. Getting outside the box. Getting outside your comfort zone.
Ilham Kadri: And, and the purpose by the way, you start with the why. The purpose.
Gilles: And then, and then the mindset that appeals to me. To passion, motivation. And I'll add another aspect in our case and in a business case that is very important is to surround yourself with the right people. Like minded idealists. The thing with adventures, which I think makes it interesting is that they push it to the extreme because, I was quite interested recently to have someone reminding me that the word passion comes from the Latin word pasio, which means actually suffering. So passion is something true that burns you from the inside out. And someone truly passionate will be someone who will give everything his entire life, his entire being to his art. And so in that sense, he has to push everything to the extreme. His methods, his training, intuition, training experience to the extreme. And, so that makes it an interesting case study.
Ilham Kadri: So determination is important like in business. To be determined to go after your passion.
Gilles: So yeah, if I think this is a question that deserves more development. But, if you're talking about preparation, for example, preparation is absolutely key. You take your project, you divide it into those small goals, and then you have your project plan. For example, okay, I want to kayak a thousand kilometers along one of the roughest coast in the world. But first I need to know how to sit in a kayak because back then I didn't know how. And then you need to be good at it. Now define good and put some incremental goals towards that ideal. And so preparation, yes, risk management to know when to stop, consistency, because I love this phrase by, I think you love it too, by Denzel Washington. He talks about consistency because nothing of worth ever comes easy. He says, dreams without goals are just dreams. And then he carries on saying, because without commitment you'll never start. And without consistency you'll never finish. And it's about discipline consistency. You have to, you need the drive to be able to dive. But then also be able to keep going and going and going.
Advice to young adventurers and entrepreneurs
Ilham Kadri: And this speaks to our hearts because it's about the human elements and the human connection we are talking about. Right. At Solvay it’s true it’s in our DNA. Actually our founder used to climb the Matterhorn, right, in Switzerland. And he did it at age 80 plus. There is still a cabin refuge with his name out there. But we are so proud. You said you are proud of it. We are proud of you. Right. Thank you. I mean, this is just amazing. I'm sure many people listening will be inspired by you and want to follow in your footsteps. What advice would you tell them?
Nathan: I think the first one is, for me, I have a sentence: Life belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams, And it's really that just never give up. Go and try it. I mean, even if you don't succeed, it's nothing and dream big. The other one is you train hard, physically and mentally. Because if you are well prepared, I think you are ready for everything. And even if it's not going well, you don't have some deception or anything because you train hard and you try to give everything. I think sharing also, it's quite important because dreaming is good, but I think dream is only real really when it's sharing. And, you share something, you don't keep it for yourself. So it's quite good to find a way also to share it. And, last but not least, I think if you go on a polar expedition, don't forget your toilet paper.
Ilham Kadri: And did you have enough toilet paper?
Nathan: We had just enough, just as I say it.
Ilham Kadri: And both of you. Is it exhaustive?
Gilles: We, we had enough. We had enough. I would say, never fail to try. Because the only real failure is not trying. So fear, remorse, not regrets. That's the first thing for me. I really like this phrase by Jacques Brel. I put it in my very first presentation years ago, that true talent is the strong desire to achieve your dreams. And he says that the rest is only sweat and discipline. So try not to compare. And don't blame yourself for not being talented enough. Blame yourself for being lazy, or not putting the work in because I don't believe in the accident of nature. People are not the natural talent. I think it's about work and dedication.
What’s next?
Ilham Kadri: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it's about the grit is more important than talents, right? And, you need to have hard work. And I say to my people, IQ is a commodity. You need more than IQ these days. Right. You didn't talk about fun. I hope you had fun as well, right? So what's next for you? You dream about your next thing?
Nathan: No, I have an expedition in my head. Maybe more in the challenge in sport way. But I think first of all, what I wanted to do is change a bit my professional career. And, go more in the guiding and maybe do Alpine guide and bring people like you and I to try to push the limits
Ilham Kadri: I can try with you, frankly after this, I need a lot of training.
Nathan: With pleasure..I think do that with kids also. They had some difficulties. I think bring them to the mountain and, and push beyond dynamics. Yeah, I think it's really good stuff to discover yourself, and for those kids could be great.
Ilham Kadri: And what about you? What's next? What's in your, in your heart and mind and dreams?
Gilles: So in my heart and dreams, this project made me really think. And I think finally, I found a way to live from adventure. So now I'm diving into it a hundred percent. I made two observations during this expedition. The first one being that adventures are the natural ambassadors for field science, if we're talking about remote areas at least. And that allows for very ecological and very economical ways to do science much more than what is done at the moment. I could put numbers and on it, et cetera, but throughout all our talks with the scientists, this is what came up really strongly. So I believe adventures have a role to play and I want to take mine seriously. And I want to do expeditions. Not only one, but I want to build something that will be able to put expeditions at the service of science and like we did with the kayaking, tailor make those expeditions to the needs of the scientists. And my scientific background also helps, so that's great. So that's the first observation I made. Then the second observation is almost as important and it's the fact that scientists need a voice. They need a voice and they need to, they need that we get it out to the general public. Loud and clear. And there's a need for vulgarization, also education. And so I think those two together, they're very important. That's why in May, 2024, I want to go back to Greenland and go back on the ice cap and go back for another expedition and carry on the science that has been started. Because I think, I'm sure things have just started. I want to carry on the science that has been started with those scientists and take it back on the icecap, taken back along the coast. And for those two reasons, help scientists get a voice, and allow them to do this cheaper, more easy access and above all more ecological way to do science. And I really believe in the communication aspect, because we had this, this phrase with Solvay, which we liked, came up with it reading something I don't remember. It is that today, an adventurous responsibility isn't to conquer lands, the noble lands to conquer, it's to conquer hearts. An adventurer is human first. And we talk to the hearts of people and then from that you can, you can say anything. You can spread messages, which will go much deeper into people's hearts and souls. And if we're talking about climate change, environment protection, these are very important nowadays, of course, and I think it's, I can play a role in that and I'm really excited about it.
Ilham Kadri: Outstanding. I mean, you have just highlighted the power of the AND. I mean, the two of you are complimentary. You are adventurers and explorers and scientific people. And you support science. You talk about the beauty of communicating, specifically fighting climate change. You have beautiful souls and you are strong as I've never seen, right. And those big dreams and achieving those big dreams, that's what makes sense and that's what exactly we want our people. So thank you, thank you so much Gilles and Nathan for joining us today. Your passion for exploration for forging new paths and advancing climate science is so motivating to all of us and there is so much we can learn. I can continue this conversation for so long, but I'm sure we'll continue the journey together. Thank you. Thank you very much for inspiring us.
Nathan: With pleasure.
Gilles: Thank you very much. Thank you.