{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":0.989,"endTime":4.029,"body":"Welcome to Ed"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":0.989,"endTime":4.029,"body":"Tech insiders. In this podcast"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4.098,"endTime":7.346,"body":"we talk to educators and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4.098,"endTime":7.346,"body":"educational technology"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":7.415,"endTime":11.561,"body":"investors, thought leaders,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":7.415,"endTime":11.561,"body":"founders and operators about the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":11.63,"endTime":15.707,"body":"most interesting and exciting"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":11.63,"endTime":15.707,"body":"trends in the field. I'm your"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":15.776,"endTime":19.369,"body":"host, Alex Sarlin, an"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":15.776,"endTime":19.369,"body":"educational technology veteran"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":19.438,"endTime":23.515,"body":"with over a decade of work and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":19.438,"endTime":23.515,"body":"leading edge tech companies."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":23.584,"endTime":27.247,"body":"Mitchell Stevens is a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":23.584,"endTime":27.247,"body":"sociologist of Higher Education"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":27.316,"endTime":31.393,"body":"at Stanford University, and the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":27.316,"endTime":31.393,"body":"co director of the Stanford"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":31.462,"endTime":35.884,"body":"pathways lab with John Michell."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":31.462,"endTime":35.884,"body":"He's the author of many research"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":35.954,"endTime":39.339,"body":"papers about credentials,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":35.954,"endTime":39.339,"body":"student debt, workforce"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":39.409,"endTime":43.002,"body":"development, and higher"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":39.409,"endTime":43.002,"body":"education generally, and has"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":43.071,"endTime":47.286,"body":"edited and authored a number of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":43.071,"endTime":47.286,"body":"books on higher ed, including"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":47.355,"endTime":51.225,"body":"creating a class college"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":47.355,"endTime":51.225,"body":"admissions and the education of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":51.294,"endTime":55.302,"body":"elites and remaking college the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":51.294,"endTime":55.302,"body":"changing ecology of Higher"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":55.371,"endTime":59.241,"body":"Education. Professor Stevens"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":55.371,"endTime":59.241,"body":"hosted virtual convening at"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":59.31,"endTime":63.387,"body":"Stanford in mid 2021. To frame"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":59.31,"endTime":63.387,"body":"a, quote, applied science to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":63.456,"endTime":67.671,"body":"support working learners. This"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":63.456,"endTime":67.671,"body":"involved over 180 participants"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":67.74,"endTime":71.679,"body":"from universities, nonprofits,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":67.74,"endTime":71.679,"body":"philanthropies and edtech."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":71.748,"endTime":75.963,"body":"Companies that serve working"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":71.748,"endTime":75.963,"body":"learners, such as ripe in bright"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":76.032,"endTime":79.833,"body":"hive, straighter line Gladio"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":76.032,"endTime":79.833,"body":"fourth rev Roblox and path"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":79.902,"endTime":83.633,"body":"stream. In this discussion,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":79.902,"endTime":83.633,"body":"we're going to discuss the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":83.702,"endTime":88.194,"body":"recommendations that came out of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":83.702,"endTime":88.194,"body":"this convenience, as well as the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":88.263,"endTime":92.271,"body":"role of edtech and helping"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":88.263,"endTime":92.271,"body":"shepherd the future of lifelong"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":92.34,"endTime":96.21,"body":"education. Mitchell Stevens,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":92.34,"endTime":96.21,"body":"Welcome to EdTech insiders."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":97.17,"endTime":99.18,"body":"Thanks, Alex."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":97.17,"endTime":99.18,"body":"Delighted to be here."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":100.26,"endTime":103.53,"body":"So you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":100.26,"endTime":103.53,"body":"recently convened a large number"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":103.53,"endTime":107.55,"body":"of education thought leaders"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":103.53,"endTime":107.55,"body":"around the topic of how to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":107.55,"endTime":113.25,"body":"develop an applied science to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":107.55,"endTime":113.25,"body":"support working learners. What"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":113.25,"endTime":116.52,"body":"was the origin of this project?"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":113.25,"endTime":116.52,"body":"And why are the needs of working"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":116.52,"endTime":117.78,"body":"learners so important?"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":118.44,"endTime":121.32,"body":"Well, long"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":118.44,"endTime":121.32,"body":"term and short term motivation"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":121.32,"endTime":125.1,"body":"for this one long term is as a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":121.32,"endTime":125.1,"body":"student of alternative"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":125.1,"endTime":129.81,"body":"educational forms, I have been"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":125.1,"endTime":129.81,"body":"studying the rise of private"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":129.81,"endTime":134.55,"body":"capital in education provision"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":129.81,"endTime":134.55,"body":"for adults, nationally and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":134.55,"endTime":138.66,"body":"worldwide for some time. The"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":134.55,"endTime":138.66,"body":"more proximate motivation is the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":138.66,"endTime":144.93,"body":"COVID 19 pandemic, which really"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":138.66,"endTime":144.93,"body":"suspended business as usual for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":144.93,"endTime":150.6,"body":"the conventional post secondary"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":144.93,"endTime":150.6,"body":"education sector. And, and got"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":150.63,"endTime":156.42,"body":"surface pretty core questions"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":150.63,"endTime":156.42,"body":"about the the importance, need"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":156.42,"endTime":161.49,"body":"and cost of physical co presence"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":156.42,"endTime":161.49,"body":"of residential based higher"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":161.49,"endTime":166.05,"body":"education, and a kind of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":161.49,"endTime":166.05,"body":"emergency emphasis on"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":166.11,"endTime":170.73,"body":"alternative educational forums."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":166.11,"endTime":170.73,"body":"And my colleagues at UC Irvine,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":170.73,"endTime":174.15,"body":"Richard Arum, and I got the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":170.73,"endTime":174.15,"body":"opportunity to write a policy"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":174.15,"endTime":177.6,"body":"brief, recommending ways in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":174.15,"endTime":177.6,"body":"which the federal government"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":177.6,"endTime":181.41,"body":"might assist colleges and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":177.6,"endTime":181.41,"body":"universities, conventional"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":181.41,"endTime":185.82,"body":"schools, in their response to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":181.41,"endTime":185.82,"body":"the COVID 19 pandemic. And one"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":185.82,"endTime":190.98,"body":"of our recommendations was that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":185.82,"endTime":190.98,"body":"some portion of federal relief"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":190.98,"endTime":195.75,"body":"to colleges and universities"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":190.98,"endTime":195.75,"body":"ought to incentivize the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":195.78,"endTime":201.0,"body":"production of new kinds of data"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":195.78,"endTime":201.0,"body":"and infrastructure to support"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":201.0,"endTime":206.46,"body":"systematic inquiry on adult"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":201.0,"endTime":206.46,"body":"learning, and lifelong"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":206.49,"endTime":210.96,"body":"education. So it was to use the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":206.49,"endTime":210.96,"body":"this disruption and business as"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":210.96,"endTime":215.58,"body":"usual, to encourage a research"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":210.96,"endTime":215.58,"body":"program that would be targeted"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":215.61,"endTime":219.48,"body":"on doing better science on what"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":215.61,"endTime":219.48,"body":"kinds of learning and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":219.48,"endTime":223.59,"body":"educational programs work for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":219.48,"endTime":223.59,"body":"which kinds of Americans in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":223.59,"endTime":227.88,"body":"which industries, and that idea"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":223.59,"endTime":227.88,"body":"really did have some legs, at"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":227.88,"endTime":231.0,"body":"least among our colleagues"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":227.88,"endTime":231.0,"body":"nationwide, there's a, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":231.09,"endTime":236.76,"body":"a growing recognition that the,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":231.09,"endTime":236.76,"body":"the science infrastructure that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":236.79,"endTime":240.54,"body":"we inherit from the 20th"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":236.79,"endTime":240.54,"body":"century, is really organized"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":240.54,"endTime":245.13,"body":"around the conventional delivery"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":240.54,"endTime":245.13,"body":"of conventional college and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":245.13,"endTime":250.35,"body":"university credentials, in a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":245.13,"endTime":250.35,"body":"physically co present way, in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":250.38,"endTime":256.11,"body":"the late stages of childhood."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":250.38,"endTime":256.11,"body":"And on our view that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":256.11,"endTime":259.38,"body":"that way of thinking about human"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":256.11,"endTime":259.38,"body":"capital development is just not"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":259.38,"endTime":261.42,"body":"tenable anymore. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":261.9,"endTime":264.6,"body":"You mentioned"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":261.9,"endTime":264.6,"body":"the late stages of childhood. So"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":264.6,"endTime":269.97,"body":"that's sort of the traditional"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":264.6,"endTime":269.97,"body":"college age between 18 and 22,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":270.0,"endTime":274.71,"body":"or 18, and 24. And when we talk"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":270.0,"endTime":274.71,"body":"about working learners, I'm"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":274.77,"endTime":278.91,"body":"imagining that it sort of starts"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":274.77,"endTime":278.91,"body":"at the low end at that type of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":278.91,"endTime":282.51,"body":"age, but goes to a much, much"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":278.91,"endTime":282.51,"body":"more advanced ages. Is that"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":282.51,"endTime":283.83,"body":"right? Yeah, that's right."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":283.86,"endTime":287.4,"body":"The The term"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":283.86,"endTime":287.4,"body":"has only recently come into"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":287.43,"endTime":291.36,"body":"policy parlance, but I very much"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":287.43,"endTime":291.36,"body":"like it, though. I can't take"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":291.36,"endTime":295.38,"body":"credit for the term. What I like"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":291.36,"endTime":295.38,"body":"about it is that it embodies a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":295.38,"endTime":298.62,"body":"recognition that in fact the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":295.38,"endTime":298.62,"body":"majority of people who are"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":298.62,"endTime":304.38,"body":"pursuing formal education beyond"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":298.62,"endTime":304.38,"body":"high school are doing that while"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":304.38,"endTime":308.73,"body":"simultaneously participating in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":304.38,"endTime":308.73,"body":"the labor market. And so that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":308.73,"endTime":313.17,"body":"has been the case for some time."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":308.73,"endTime":313.17,"body":"But the the scientific imaginary"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":313.17,"endTime":317.64,"body":"has long focused on an on a kind"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":313.17,"endTime":317.64,"body":"of full time student who's"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":317.64,"endTime":321.21,"body":"foregoing paid work in order to,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":317.64,"endTime":321.21,"body":"you know, to be in a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":321.21,"endTime":324.96,"body":"conventional school. And working"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":321.21,"endTime":324.96,"body":"learners sort of disrupts that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":324.99,"endTime":328.86,"body":"presumption, I think in a in a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":324.99,"endTime":328.86,"body":"powerful way. And yes, I think"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":328.86,"endTime":334.83,"body":"focusing on adults over the age"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":328.86,"endTime":334.83,"body":"of 22, or 25, who are who have"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":334.83,"endTime":339.45,"body":"yet to obtain four year"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":334.83,"endTime":339.45,"body":"credential is, is a good operant"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":339.45,"endTime":341.07,"body":"definition for this group."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":341.25,"endTime":343.59,"body":"That makes a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":341.25,"endTime":343.59,"body":"lot of sense. And that is a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":343.62,"endTime":348.6,"body":"group that is in true need of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":343.62,"endTime":348.6,"body":"either traditional or"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":348.6,"endTime":351.57,"body":"alternative credentials to be"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":348.6,"endTime":351.57,"body":"able to really enter the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":351.6,"endTime":355.2,"body":"information economy at a at a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":351.6,"endTime":355.2,"body":"sustainable level."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":355.56,"endTime":357.96,"body":"That's That's"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":355.56,"endTime":357.96,"body":"absolutely right. The parallel"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":357.96,"endTime":361.74,"body":"work of mine and many others"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":357.96,"endTime":361.74,"body":"across the country now is kind"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":361.74,"endTime":365.4,"body":"of a growing recognition that,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":361.74,"endTime":365.4,"body":"you know, possession or non"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":365.4,"endTime":368.58,"body":"possession of a four year"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":365.4,"endTime":368.58,"body":"college degree has become a very"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":368.58,"endTime":372.99,"body":"fateful dividing line in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":368.58,"endTime":372.99,"body":"American life, separating people"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":372.99,"endTime":377.97,"body":"who can reasonably expect to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":372.99,"endTime":377.97,"body":"have stable well compensated"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":377.97,"endTime":381.12,"body":"employments through adulthood,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":377.97,"endTime":381.12,"body":"and those who cannot."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":381.51,"endTime":384.12,"body":"One related"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":381.51,"endTime":384.12,"body":"project that I just want to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":384.12,"endTime":388.5,"body":"mention before we dive into some"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":384.12,"endTime":388.5,"body":"of the details, is the Stanford"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":388.5,"endTime":392.13,"body":"new map of life, which takes us"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":388.5,"endTime":392.13,"body":"it's premise that in the United"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":392.13,"endTime":396.27,"body":"States, as many as half of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":392.13,"endTime":396.27,"body":"today's five year olds can"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":396.27,"endTime":400.59,"body":"expect to live to the age of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":396.27,"endTime":400.59,"body":"100. So you've worked with"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":400.59,"endTime":404.58,"body":"Professor Elana Horwitz, from"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":400.59,"endTime":404.58,"body":"Tulane University to drill down"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":404.58,"endTime":408.6,"body":"specifically about, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":404.58,"endTime":408.6,"body":"what does this extended lifespan"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":408.6,"endTime":412.26,"body":"mean for education? And what"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":408.6,"endTime":412.26,"body":"does it mean for for a working"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":412.26,"endTime":415.74,"body":"life, but tell us a little bit"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":412.26,"endTime":415.74,"body":"about the map of life project,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":415.92,"endTime":419.34,"body":"and how that sort of relates to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":415.92,"endTime":419.34,"body":"the needs of working learners."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":419.67,"endTime":421.77,"body":"I'm delighted"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":419.67,"endTime":421.77,"body":"to talk about that, and happy to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":421.77,"endTime":425.28,"body":"be on the new map of Life team,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":421.77,"endTime":425.28,"body":"which is a project of the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":425.28,"endTime":429.21,"body":"Stanford Center on Longevity,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":425.28,"endTime":429.21,"body":"and was just released to the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":429.21,"endTime":433.29,"body":"public last month. The basic"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":429.21,"endTime":433.29,"body":"thrust of the new map of life is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":433.29,"endTime":436.92,"body":"that lengthening lifespans are"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":433.29,"endTime":436.92,"body":"both an opportunity and a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":436.92,"endTime":440.46,"body":"challenge. For Americans. The"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":436.92,"endTime":440.46,"body":"opportunity is that we've been"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":440.46,"endTime":444.84,"body":"given the gift of more"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":440.46,"endTime":444.84,"body":"potentially productive years to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":444.84,"endTime":449.34,"body":"invest in ourselves and our"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":444.84,"endTime":449.34,"body":"loved ones. The downside is that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":449.43,"endTime":453.36,"body":"the institutions that we inherit"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":449.43,"endTime":453.36,"body":"from the 20th century have not"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":453.36,"endTime":458.04,"body":"been organized for us to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":453.36,"endTime":458.04,"body":"optimize on those longer lives,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":458.28,"endTime":462.75,"body":"and they've given us longer"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":458.28,"endTime":462.75,"body":"lives quite inequitably. Let me"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":462.87,"endTime":466.77,"body":"say a little bit more about both"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":462.87,"endTime":466.77,"body":"of those things. As my colleague"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":466.77,"endTime":470.49,"body":"Laura Carstensen says many"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":466.77,"endTime":470.49,"body":"times, what we've done with"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":470.49,"endTime":474.45,"body":"longer lifespans over the last"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":470.49,"endTime":474.45,"body":"couple of generations is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":474.6,"endTime":480.78,"body":"essentially added those years to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":474.6,"endTime":480.78,"body":"old age, is that the best way to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":480.78,"endTime":484.98,"body":"be spending additional years,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":480.78,"endTime":484.98,"body":"you know, could we add those"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":484.98,"endTime":489.39,"body":"years to midlife or young"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":484.98,"endTime":489.39,"body":"adulthood or childhood and delay"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":489.42,"endTime":493.41,"body":"old age? And what sort of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":489.42,"endTime":493.41,"body":"institutional infrastructures"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":493.41,"endTime":496.32,"body":"would we need to build to do"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":493.41,"endTime":496.32,"body":"that? How might our education"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":496.32,"endTime":499.35,"body":"system for example, look"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":496.32,"endTime":499.35,"body":"different? If we presumed that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":499.35,"endTime":502.47,"body":"people were going to be in the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":499.35,"endTime":502.47,"body":"productive labor force for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":502.47,"endTime":507.87,"body":"510 15 years longer than they"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":502.47,"endTime":507.87,"body":"have in the past? The other"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":507.87,"endTime":512.58,"body":"challenge is that long life is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":507.87,"endTime":512.58,"body":"very much a gift of class"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":512.58,"endTime":515.7,"body":"privilege. And a lot of that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":512.58,"endTime":515.7,"body":"privilege gets mediated through"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":515.7,"endTime":519.9,"body":"formal educational attainment."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":515.7,"endTime":519.9,"body":"So essentially, the the more"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":519.9,"endTime":523.92,"body":"formal education, especially"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":519.9,"endTime":523.92,"body":"college education, people are"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":523.92,"endTime":528.3,"body":"able to experience in their"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":523.92,"endTime":528.3,"body":"lives, the happier and healthier"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":528.48,"endTime":532.38,"body":"and better compensated, frankly,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":528.48,"endTime":532.38,"body":"their working lives will be so"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":532.53,"endTime":535.53,"body":"there are important sort of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":532.53,"endTime":535.53,"body":"institutional and equity"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":535.53,"endTime":538.92,"body":"questions are kind of bound up"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":535.53,"endTime":538.92,"body":"in the lengthening lifespan."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":539.49,"endTime":542.37,"body":"That's very"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":539.49,"endTime":542.37,"body":"insightful. And I mean, I'd love"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":542.37,"endTime":545.91,"body":"to drill down a little bit into"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":542.37,"endTime":545.91,"body":"the some of the the inequalities"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":545.94,"endTime":550.5,"body":"that stem from education in"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":545.94,"endTime":550.5,"body":"America right now. I you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":550.5,"endTime":553.62,"body":"as you mentioned, college has"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":550.5,"endTime":553.62,"body":"become you know, college"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":553.62,"endTime":556.17,"body":"educational attainment post"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":553.62,"endTime":556.17,"body":"secondary attainment has been"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":556.17,"endTime":560.37,"body":"increasingly correlated with"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":556.17,"endTime":560.37,"body":"many different measures of what"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":560.37,"endTime":563.76,"body":"we consider sort of success in"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":560.37,"endTime":563.76,"body":"America. That's economic"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":563.76,"endTime":568.47,"body":"success, health outcomes, longer"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":563.76,"endTime":568.47,"body":"lifespan, lower chance of drug"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":568.5,"endTime":572.31,"body":"addiction. It reminds me of the,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":568.5,"endTime":572.31,"body":"you know, the depths of despair"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":572.31,"endTime":576.09,"body":"and the future of capitalism,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":572.31,"endTime":576.09,"body":"which was an excellent sociology"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":576.09,"endTime":579.6,"body":"book, you know, a year or two"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":576.09,"endTime":579.6,"body":"ago from from Princeton"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":579.63,"endTime":583.41,"body":"economists and sociologists, can"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":579.63,"endTime":583.41,"body":"you tell our listeners a little"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":583.41,"endTime":588.99,"body":"more about the backstory about"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":583.41,"endTime":588.99,"body":"why educational attainment has"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":588.99,"endTime":592.71,"body":"become so determinative of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":588.99,"endTime":592.71,"body":"everything else in American"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":592.71,"endTime":593.19,"body":"life?"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":593.43,"endTime":596.85,"body":"Yes, and this"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":593.43,"endTime":596.85,"body":"is a fairly complicated and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":596.85,"endTime":601.32,"body":"sobering story that the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":596.85,"endTime":601.32,"body":"sociologist alone Horwitz and I"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":601.35,"endTime":605.37,"body":"sort of wrote through together"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":601.35,"endTime":605.37,"body":"basically has two components."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":605.46,"endTime":610.5,"body":"One is that a great deal of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":605.46,"endTime":610.5,"body":"propensity and disposition"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":610.56,"endTime":616.62,"body":"toward school, a desire for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":610.56,"endTime":616.62,"body":"school, the capacity, the basic"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":616.62,"endTime":620.07,"body":"skills that enable one to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":616.62,"endTime":620.07,"body":"succeed in school, are late in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":620.07,"endTime":625.41,"body":"the very first years of life. So"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":620.07,"endTime":625.41,"body":"really, from infancy, infancy to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":625.41,"endTime":630.54,"body":"middle school are really crucial"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":625.41,"endTime":630.54,"body":"periods for putting children on"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":630.57,"endTime":636.45,"body":"a pathway, to desire to do well"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":630.57,"endTime":636.45,"body":"in school to take pleasure in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":636.45,"endTime":640.77,"body":"school and to enjoy its"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":636.45,"endTime":640.77,"body":"benefits. But because we live in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":640.77,"endTime":646.98,"body":"such a stratified society and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":640.77,"endTime":646.98,"body":"children grow up in highly class"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":646.98,"endTime":650.85,"body":"and race segregated"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":646.98,"endTime":650.85,"body":"environments, opportunity to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":650.85,"endTime":654.57,"body":"learn as my colleague Sean"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":650.85,"endTime":654.57,"body":"Riordan calls it is very"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":654.66,"endTime":659.85,"body":"inequitably distributed. So and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":654.66,"endTime":659.85,"body":"this does a lot to explain why"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":659.91,"endTime":664.53,"body":"variation in learning and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":659.91,"endTime":664.53,"body":"educational attainments by the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":664.53,"endTime":669.36,"body":"time one reaches Middle School"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":664.53,"endTime":669.36,"body":"are highly correlated with post"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":669.36,"endTime":673.44,"body":"secondary completion. The second"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":669.36,"endTime":673.44,"body":"half of the story is that the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":673.44,"endTime":677.37,"body":"way in which Americans have"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":673.44,"endTime":677.37,"body":"organized educational provision"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":677.37,"endTime":681.96,"body":"after high school is that, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":677.37,"endTime":681.96,"body":"know, if one either hasn't"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":681.96,"endTime":685.26,"body":"completed high school, or"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":681.96,"endTime":685.26,"body":"doesn't have the material"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":685.26,"endTime":690.3,"body":"resources, or the academic"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":685.26,"endTime":690.3,"body":"capacity to enter and succeed in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":690.3,"endTime":694.29,"body":"college, one is basically"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":690.3,"endTime":694.29,"body":"systematically disadvantaged in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":694.29,"endTime":698.49,"body":"labor and marriage markets for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":694.29,"endTime":698.49,"body":"the rest of one's life because"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":698.52,"endTime":702.78,"body":"Americans use possession or non"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":698.52,"endTime":702.78,"body":"possession of a college"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":702.78,"endTime":706.53,"body":"credential to sort job"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":702.78,"endTime":706.53,"body":"applicants to shortsword"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":706.53,"endTime":709.89,"body":"potential marital partners to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":706.53,"endTime":709.89,"body":"develop their friendship"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":709.89,"endTime":713.58,"body":"networks. So there's kind of a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":709.89,"endTime":713.58,"body":"two sided problem here,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":713.61,"endTime":717.63,"body":"inequality in early childhood,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":713.61,"endTime":717.63,"body":"and then tying a lot of social"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":717.63,"endTime":721.95,"body":"benefits to successful"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":717.63,"endTime":721.95,"body":"completion of college combined"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":722.25,"endTime":726.24,"body":"to create the inequality problem"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":722.25,"endTime":726.24,"body":"that the new map of life"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":726.24,"endTime":727.11,"body":"emphasizes"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":727.62,"endTime":731.25,"body":"your citing"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":727.62,"endTime":731.25,"body":"that it's it really starts very"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":731.25,"endTime":734.97,"body":"early in life. And one of the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":731.25,"endTime":734.97,"body":"quotes that jumped out to me"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":734.97,"endTime":738.48,"body":"from the report was, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":734.97,"endTime":738.48,"body":"and I quote, us, higher"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":738.48,"endTime":743.49,"body":"education is akin to an elevator"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":738.48,"endTime":743.49,"body":"in a structure in which most"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":743.49,"endTime":747.75,"body":"people enter on the upper"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":743.49,"endTime":747.75,"body":"floors. I thought that was such"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":747.78,"endTime":751.95,"body":"a great quote about, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":747.78,"endTime":751.95,"body":"how higher education"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":751.95,"endTime":756.6,"body":"institutions can sort of select"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":751.95,"endTime":756.6,"body":"for people who already have so"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":756.6,"endTime":758.25,"body":"many social advantages."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":758.31,"endTime":760.08,"body":"And I have to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":758.31,"endTime":760.08,"body":"credit my colleague Elana"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":760.08,"endTime":763.35,"body":"Horwitz, for developing that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":760.08,"endTime":763.35,"body":"that metaphor, but I think it's"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":763.38,"endTime":766.95,"body":"I think it's actually quite"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":763.38,"endTime":766.95,"body":"sobering. Lee true. Consider,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":766.95,"endTime":770.4,"body":"for example, that if you haven't"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":766.95,"endTime":770.4,"body":"finished high school, you're"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":770.4,"endTime":774.42,"body":"essentially ineligible to enter"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":770.4,"endTime":774.42,"body":"college. So that sort of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":774.42,"endTime":779.97,"body":"categorically excludes from the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":774.42,"endTime":779.97,"body":"opportunity machine of college,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":780.21,"endTime":785.88,"body":"you know, anybody who has has"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":780.21,"endTime":785.88,"body":"been so poorly served by either"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":785.88,"endTime":788.91,"body":"the education system or the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":785.88,"endTime":788.91,"body":"health system or the criminal"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":788.91,"endTime":792.6,"body":"justice system, that they"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":788.91,"endTime":792.6,"body":"haven't had the benefit of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":792.72,"endTime":797.64,"body":"finishing college. But then also"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":792.72,"endTime":797.64,"body":"because college provision is is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":797.64,"endTime":801.03,"body":"largely organized as a consumer"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":797.64,"endTime":801.03,"body":"market in the United States,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":801.36,"endTime":805.08,"body":"people are have a much easier"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":801.36,"endTime":805.08,"body":"time, you know, entering"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":805.08,"endTime":808.53,"body":"college, if they have family"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":805.08,"endTime":808.53,"body":"wealth to support them in that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":808.53,"endTime":813.51,"body":"endeavor, or if they have access"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":808.53,"endTime":813.51,"body":"to, you know, certain kinds of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":813.51,"endTime":817.32,"body":"information about scholarships,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":813.51,"endTime":817.32,"body":"grants and loans that are"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":817.32,"endTime":822.15,"body":"unequally distributed. Many"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":817.32,"endTime":822.15,"body":"people who who have the savvy to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":822.18,"endTime":826.5,"body":"enroll in college, even without"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":822.18,"endTime":826.5,"body":"significant financial means"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":826.53,"endTime":830.88,"body":"you're essentially mortgaging"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":826.53,"endTime":830.88,"body":"their own futures by acquiring"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":830.91,"endTime":835.35,"body":"federally backed debt to pursue"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":830.91,"endTime":835.35,"body":"that. So you kind of have to,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":835.38,"endTime":838.05,"body":"you have to be at a certain"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":835.38,"endTime":838.05,"body":"level of educational attainment"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":838.08,"endTime":841.5,"body":"in order to even get on the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":838.08,"endTime":841.5,"body":"college elevator, we should say,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":841.53,"endTime":844.98,"body":"and then the elevator goes a lot"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":841.53,"endTime":844.98,"body":"faster. That's an express"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":845.01,"endTime":849.39,"body":"system, if shall we say, if one"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":845.01,"endTime":849.39,"body":"has family wealth to bring to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":849.39,"endTime":850.02,"body":"that project?"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":851.43,"endTime":855.06,"body":"Let's talk a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":851.43,"endTime":855.06,"body":"little bit about how the higher"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":855.06,"endTime":859.17,"body":"education system in the US also"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":855.06,"endTime":859.17,"body":"has these different tiers of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":859.17,"endTime":864.75,"body":"education. So, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":859.17,"endTime":864.75,"body":"highly selective four year"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":864.75,"endTime":868.02,"body":"institutions that a lot of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":864.75,"endTime":868.02,"body":"people think of as sort of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":868.02,"endTime":873.12,"body":"synonymous with college,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":868.02,"endTime":873.12,"body":"including Stanford, are maybe"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":873.12,"endTime":876.39,"body":"the fastest elevators of all"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":873.12,"endTime":876.39,"body":"using that metaphor. If you can"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":876.39,"endTime":880.83,"body":"make your way into a highly"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":876.39,"endTime":880.83,"body":"selective top, you know, let's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":880.83,"endTime":885.21,"body":"say 50 college in the United"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":880.83,"endTime":885.21,"body":"States and attend and graduate."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":885.42,"endTime":889.17,"body":"You have enormous advantages and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":885.42,"endTime":889.17,"body":"you probably had enormous"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":889.17,"endTime":892.77,"body":"advantages to get there in the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":889.17,"endTime":892.77,"body":"first place. But there's a whole"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":892.8,"endTime":897.18,"body":"other system there's there's a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":892.8,"endTime":897.18,"body":"vast number of higher education"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":897.18,"endTime":902.55,"body":"institutions and the majority of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":897.18,"endTime":902.55,"body":"students Do not attend selective"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":902.55,"endTime":906.93,"body":"for your universities. So talk"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":902.55,"endTime":906.93,"body":"to us a little bit about that"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":906.93,"endTime":911.49,"body":"sort of tiered system and how it"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":906.93,"endTime":911.49,"body":"creates inequality or sort of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":911.49,"endTime":915.93,"body":"what how people can fall out of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":911.49,"endTime":915.93,"body":"the benefits of college through"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":916.02,"endTime":917.37,"body":"that type of system."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":918.209,"endTime":919.739,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":918.209,"endTime":919.739,"body":"And I think this is a good"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":919.739,"endTime":923.189,"body":"opportunity to, for me to pause"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":919.739,"endTime":923.189,"body":"and talk a little bit about a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":923.189,"endTime":927.899,"body":"glass half full. Sociologists"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":923.189,"endTime":927.899,"body":"rarely get smiley face emoji"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":927.899,"endTime":931.859,"body":"cons associated with them. We're"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":927.899,"endTime":931.859,"body":"kind of a frowny face industry,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":931.889,"endTime":935.579,"body":"I do think that there are some"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":931.889,"endTime":935.579,"body":"very important, positive"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":935.579,"endTime":940.259,"body":"cultural values that are"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":935.579,"endTime":940.259,"body":"embodied in Americans affection"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":940.619,"endTime":944.549,"body":"for college, we are a nation of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":940.619,"endTime":944.549,"body":"school builders, we have great"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":944.549,"endTime":949.109,"body":"faith, that educational"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":944.549,"endTime":949.109,"body":"opportunities, in their myriad"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":949.109,"endTime":953.939,"body":"forms can make individual lives"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":949.109,"endTime":953.939,"body":"better and make whole societies"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":953.939,"endTime":958.499,"body":"better, and we hope more"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":953.939,"endTime":958.499,"body":"equitable. And so throughout"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":958.499,"endTime":961.949,"body":"American history, Americans"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":958.499,"endTime":961.949,"body":"have, you know, created new"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":961.949,"endTime":966.449,"body":"forms of educational opportunity"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":961.949,"endTime":966.449,"body":"for their own children and also"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":966.479,"endTime":970.049,"body":"for their fellow for their"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":966.479,"endTime":970.049,"body":"fellow citizens. What we haven't"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":970.049,"endTime":974.279,"body":"done is invest in other forms of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":970.049,"endTime":974.279,"body":"social provision that are"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":974.279,"endTime":978.149,"body":"arguably at least as important"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":974.279,"endTime":978.149,"body":"for people's flourishing. This"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":978.149,"endTime":981.929,"body":"is not a country that guarantees"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":978.149,"endTime":981.929,"body":"people employment, it is not a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":981.929,"endTime":986.219,"body":"country that guarantees people a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":981.929,"endTime":986.219,"body":"living wage. It is not a country"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":986.219,"endTime":991.469,"body":"that guarantees people health"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":986.219,"endTime":991.469,"body":"care, regardless of their income"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":991.499,"endTime":995.879,"body":"or wealth. It's not a country"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":991.499,"endTime":995.879,"body":"that assures people that they"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":995.879,"endTime":1001.429,"body":"will be housed, fed and clothed"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":995.879,"endTime":1001.429,"body":"adequately. So because we have a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1001.429,"endTime":1005.269,"body":"society that offers very few"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1001.429,"endTime":1005.269,"body":"sort of guaranteed social"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1005.269,"endTime":1009.979,"body":"supports, for all of our"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1005.269,"endTime":1009.979,"body":"citizens, we invest a lot more"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1010.009,"endTime":1014.809,"body":"in in educational provision. And"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1010.009,"endTime":1014.809,"body":"so that's one of the big reasons"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1014.809,"endTime":1019.099,"body":"why we have some of the highest"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1014.809,"endTime":1019.099,"body":"rates of college going in the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1019.099,"endTime":1024.529,"body":"United States in the world. But"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1019.099,"endTime":1024.529,"body":"it also means that we enable"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1024.529,"endTime":1028.099,"body":"people to build a very"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1024.529,"endTime":1028.099,"body":"stratified higher education"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1028.099,"endTime":1031.849,"body":"system, right, to the extent"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1028.099,"endTime":1031.849,"body":"that educational provision is,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1032.179,"endTime":1035.659,"body":"you know, not presumed to be a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1032.179,"endTime":1035.659,"body":"project of the central"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1035.659,"endTime":1039.709,"body":"government, sort of anybody who"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1035.659,"endTime":1039.709,"body":"wants to create a school and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1039.709,"endTime":1044.119,"body":"charge tuition and find a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1039.709,"endTime":1044.119,"body":"constituency can can go for it."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1044.179,"endTime":1048.139,"body":"And so, you know, over many"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1044.179,"endTime":1048.139,"body":"generations that has created"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1048.139,"endTime":1052.999,"body":"conditions of in which have a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1048.139,"endTime":1052.999,"body":"highly Tiered System of Higher"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1052.999,"endTime":1057.259,"body":"Education products, if you will,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1052.999,"endTime":1057.259,"body":"that cater to variably, to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1057.259,"endTime":1061.129,"body":"different class groups and serve"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1057.259,"endTime":1061.129,"body":"people have different means. And"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1061.129,"endTime":1065.119,"body":"since you know, function at the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1061.129,"endTime":1065.119,"body":"high end, like, like exclusive"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1065.389,"endTime":1068.629,"body":"clubs, they're kind of like"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1065.389,"endTime":1068.629,"body":"private welfare states, in the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1068.629,"endTime":1072.889,"body":"sense like, if one has the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1068.629,"endTime":1072.889,"body":"means, and the credentials to be"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1072.889,"endTime":1077.989,"body":"admitted to say Stanford"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1072.889,"endTime":1077.989,"body":"University, one can be largely"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1077.989,"endTime":1083.929,"body":"assured that the the resource of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1077.989,"endTime":1083.929,"body":"a Stanford degree and an alumni"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1083.929,"endTime":1087.829,"body":"affiliation will sort of, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1083.929,"endTime":1087.829,"body":"know, follow follow me through"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1087.829,"endTime":1092.119,"body":"my entire life. And that's a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1087.829,"endTime":1092.119,"body":"very, you know, powerful social"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1092.119,"endTime":1095.149,"body":"asset, but it's really only"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1092.119,"endTime":1095.149,"body":"available to, you know, very"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1095.149,"endTime":1098.929,"body":"small number of people who have"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1095.149,"endTime":1098.929,"body":"the means and the credentials"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1098.929,"endTime":1103.279,"body":"to, to obtain that kind of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1098.929,"endTime":1103.279,"body":"educational treatment. And if"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1103.279,"endTime":1105.679,"body":"people have sort of fewer"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1103.279,"endTime":1105.679,"body":"resources, they, you know, they"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1105.679,"endTime":1109.159,"body":"enter different kinds of kinds"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1105.679,"endTime":1109.159,"body":"of markets. And one way to think"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1109.159,"endTime":1112.459,"body":"about the EdTech sector at"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1109.159,"endTime":1112.459,"body":"present, I would say is, we're"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1112.459,"endTime":1117.559,"body":"seeing a proliferation of not"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1112.459,"endTime":1117.559,"body":"school forms, in part due to the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1117.559,"endTime":1121.639,"body":"market failure of the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1117.559,"endTime":1121.639,"body":"conventional sector to provide"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1121.669,"endTime":1125.629,"body":"you know, affordable, meaningful"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1121.669,"endTime":1125.629,"body":"college credentials that people"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1125.629,"endTime":1127.879,"body":"can actually meaningfully"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1125.629,"endTime":1127.879,"body":"obtain."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1128.93,"endTime":1131.75,"body":"That's a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1128.93,"endTime":1131.75,"body":"terrific synopsis, it's a really"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1131.75,"endTime":1135.92,"body":"interesting way to look at, look"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1131.75,"endTime":1135.92,"body":"at it, that that the US is lack"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1135.92,"endTime":1140.15,"body":"of sort of welfare and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1135.92,"endTime":1140.15,"body":"guaranteed guaranteed supports"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1140.18,"endTime":1143.99,"body":"in so many other ways puts the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1140.18,"endTime":1143.99,"body":"onus more and more on education"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1143.99,"endTime":1147.74,"body":"to be the the engine of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1143.99,"endTime":1147.74,"body":"mobility, because people can"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1147.74,"endTime":1151.76,"body":"rely on so few other other"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1147.74,"endTime":1151.76,"body":"things. I call it I call"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1151.76,"endTime":1153.77,"body":"it the United"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1151.76,"endTime":1153.77,"body":"States of your on your own"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1153.8,"endTime":1158.48,"body":"right. You are your own"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1153.8,"endTime":1158.48,"body":"individual business. No, no,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1158.48,"endTime":1164.3,"body":"your household is your own firm."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1158.48,"endTime":1164.3,"body":"You know, ideally, the ideally,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1164.3,"endTime":1167.42,"body":"you know, government creates"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1164.3,"endTime":1167.42,"body":"conditions under which your"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1167.42,"endTime":1171.02,"body":"ability to do business is is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1167.42,"endTime":1171.02,"body":"occurring in a fairly"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1171.02,"endTime":1175.76,"body":"transparent marketplace. But we"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1171.02,"endTime":1175.76,"body":"do we do presume that, that, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1175.76,"endTime":1179.93,"body":"know, my livelihood and the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1175.76,"endTime":1179.93,"body":"lifelong employability of myself"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1179.93,"endTime":1183.17,"body":"and my children is, is really"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1179.93,"endTime":1183.17,"body":"the responsibility of myself and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1183.17,"endTime":1183.86,"body":"my family."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1184.19,"endTime":1188.66,"body":"And then it"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1184.19,"endTime":1188.66,"body":"creates this ironic situation"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1188.66,"endTime":1192.59,"body":"where in the least selective"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1188.66,"endTime":1192.59,"body":"schools also have the highest"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1192.59,"endTime":1196.4,"body":"dropout rates, which has always"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1192.59,"endTime":1196.4,"body":"been to me one of the biggest"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1196.4,"endTime":1200.0,"body":"paradoxes and sort of just head"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1196.4,"endTime":1200.0,"body":"scratchers of American educator"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1200.0,"endTime":1204.2,"body":"Because the schools with the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1200.0,"endTime":1204.2,"body":"least selectivity criteria, and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1204.23,"endTime":1209.48,"body":"often the least, not always, but"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1204.23,"endTime":1209.48,"body":"often the least tuition still"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1209.51,"endTime":1214.88,"body":"graduate students had at half"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1209.51,"endTime":1214.88,"body":"the rate of elite four year"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1214.88,"endTime":1215.81,"body":"institutions."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1215.99,"endTime":1217.61,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1215.99,"endTime":1217.61,"body":"that's an that's that's true"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1217.61,"endTime":1220.34,"body":"for, you know, a couple of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1217.61,"endTime":1220.34,"body":"interesting reasons I would say."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1220.34,"endTime":1224.36,"body":"One is that elite schools, as my"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1220.34,"endTime":1224.36,"body":"colleague gives up, A Rocha at"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1224.36,"endTime":1228.41,"body":"the University of Virginia has"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1224.36,"endTime":1228.41,"body":"said many times, elite schools"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1228.44,"endTime":1232.37,"body":"systematically exclude people on"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1228.44,"endTime":1232.37,"body":"the basis of the things that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1232.37,"endTime":1235.37,"body":"might prevent them from"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1232.37,"endTime":1235.37,"body":"graduating. So you know, they"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1235.4,"endTime":1238.58,"body":"tend to not let people in who"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1235.4,"endTime":1238.58,"body":"can't afford it, they can't let"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1238.61,"endTime":1241.88,"body":"they don't let people in who"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1238.61,"endTime":1241.88,"body":"have children. They don't let"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1241.88,"endTime":1245.42,"body":"people in who have full time"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1241.88,"endTime":1245.42,"body":"jobs. They don't let people in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1245.42,"endTime":1249.02,"body":"who had poor high school"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1245.42,"endTime":1249.02,"body":"preparation. And you know, once"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1249.02,"endTime":1251.99,"body":"in a selective school, young"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1249.02,"endTime":1251.99,"body":"people have access to an"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1251.99,"endTime":1256.04,"body":"elaborate array of services that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1251.99,"endTime":1256.04,"body":"essentially assure their"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1256.04,"endTime":1260.3,"body":"graduation, right. So it really"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1256.04,"endTime":1260.3,"body":"is a sort of, you know, rich get"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1260.3,"endTime":1263.96,"body":"richer kind of situation, I call"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1260.3,"endTime":1263.96,"body":"it, I call it graduation"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1263.96,"endTime":1267.95,"body":"insurance. But at the other end"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1263.96,"endTime":1267.95,"body":"of the distribution, you have"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1267.95,"endTime":1271.22,"body":"people who, you know, whose"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1267.95,"endTime":1271.22,"body":"lives are more complicated, who"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1271.22,"endTime":1274.25,"body":"were not as well prepared for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1271.22,"endTime":1274.25,"body":"college in the first place, who"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1274.25,"endTime":1278.09,"body":"don't have the same kind of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1274.25,"endTime":1278.09,"body":"savvy to navigate an academic"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1278.09,"endTime":1281.57,"body":"landscape, and who does have"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1278.09,"endTime":1281.57,"body":"more polls on their time. So,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1281.84,"endTime":1285.2,"body":"again, this is where I think"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1281.84,"endTime":1285.2,"body":"that the the ed tech sector, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1285.2,"endTime":1289.28,"body":"know, figured out well before"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1285.2,"endTime":1289.28,"body":"many others in the conventional"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1289.67,"endTime":1292.76,"body":"in the conventional ecology,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1289.67,"endTime":1292.76,"body":"that, you know, college, as"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1292.76,"endTime":1298.19,"body":"usual, does not very well serve"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1292.76,"endTime":1298.19,"body":"working adults with complicated"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1298.19,"endTime":1303.56,"body":"lives. And, you know, other"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1298.19,"endTime":1303.56,"body":"forms of educational opportunity"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1303.59,"endTime":1308.09,"body":"should probably be designed"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1303.59,"endTime":1308.09,"body":"specifically for those people"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1308.09,"endTime":1309.8,"body":"and those lies. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1310.159,"endTime":1313.189,"body":"so that is a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1310.159,"endTime":1313.189,"body":"terrific segue, because this is"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1313.189,"endTime":1316.849,"body":"an edtech podcast. After all, I"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1313.189,"endTime":1316.849,"body":"love talking about the sociology"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1316.849,"endTime":1320.089,"body":"of education. But you've"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1316.849,"endTime":1320.089,"body":"mentioned ed tech and its role a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1320.089,"endTime":1322.969,"body":"couple of times. And I, I wanted"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1320.089,"endTime":1322.969,"body":"to drill down on that that"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1322.969,"endTime":1325.789,"body":"definition of working learners"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1322.969,"endTime":1325.789,"body":"that you've mentioned, the idea"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1325.789,"endTime":1330.289,"body":"that they are in this, in this"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1325.789,"endTime":1330.289,"body":"framing, employed adults who do"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1330.289,"endTime":1334.999,"body":"not possess a four year post"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1330.289,"endTime":1334.999,"body":"secondary credential. And you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1334.999,"endTime":1337.699,"body":"know, what one of the things"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1334.999,"endTime":1337.699,"body":"that the report goes into is"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1337.699,"endTime":1342.349,"body":"that working learners seek both"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1337.699,"endTime":1342.349,"body":"education and work"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1342.379,"endTime":1346.129,"body":"simultaneously throughout"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1342.379,"endTime":1346.129,"body":"adulthood, they don't want to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1346.129,"endTime":1350.269,"body":"have to quit their jobs or are"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1346.129,"endTime":1350.269,"body":"unable to quit their jobs, many"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1350.749,"endTime":1354.979,"body":"students. So let's talk about"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1350.749,"endTime":1354.979,"body":"how this relates to EdTech. What"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1354.979,"endTime":1358.969,"body":"models do you see either, you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1354.979,"endTime":1358.969,"body":"know, past present or future in"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1358.969,"endTime":1362.809,"body":"edtech, that might sort of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1358.969,"endTime":1362.809,"body":"bridge this gap and allow"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1362.839,"endTime":1367.729,"body":"employed adults who don't have a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1362.839,"endTime":1367.729,"body":"four year credential to receive"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1368.029,"endTime":1370.909,"body":"advancement and work at the same"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1368.029,"endTime":1370.909,"body":"time?"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1371.06,"endTime":1373.7,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1371.06,"endTime":1373.7,"body":"Yeah. So you know, let's let's"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1373.7,"endTime":1377.36,"body":"let's start this time with the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1373.7,"endTime":1377.36,"body":"with the bad news. And with the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1377.36,"endTime":1381.23,"body":"good news. The bad news, I would"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1377.36,"endTime":1381.23,"body":"say is that educational"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1381.23,"endTime":1386.12,"body":"entrepreneurs beginning in the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1381.23,"endTime":1386.12,"body":"1990s, figured out that working"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1386.12,"endTime":1390.71,"body":"adults were being very poorly"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1386.12,"endTime":1390.71,"body":"served by conventional colleges"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1390.71,"endTime":1394.19,"body":"and universities that community"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1390.71,"endTime":1394.19,"body":"colleges, comprehensive state"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1394.19,"endTime":1398.81,"body":"schools, and you know, myriad"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1394.19,"endTime":1398.81,"body":"private nonprofit providers that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1398.81,"endTime":1402.53,"body":"hadn't really changed their core"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1398.81,"endTime":1402.53,"body":"operations to accommodate"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1402.53,"endTime":1406.7,"body":"working adults. And it is the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1402.53,"endTime":1406.7,"body":"proprietary college industry"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1407.03,"endTime":1411.98,"body":"that recognized the just how"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1407.03,"endTime":1411.98,"body":"poorly served millions of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1411.98,"endTime":1415.34,"body":"working Americans were by"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1411.98,"endTime":1415.34,"body":"conventional colleges and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1415.34,"endTime":1419.36,"body":"universities. And we know what"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1415.34,"endTime":1419.36,"body":"happened in the first two"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1419.36,"endTime":1423.77,"body":"decades of the 20th century"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1419.36,"endTime":1423.77,"body":"publicly traded for profit"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1423.8,"endTime":1427.91,"body":"institutions, which were, let's"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1423.8,"endTime":1427.91,"body":"face it, universities only in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1427.91,"endTime":1432.23,"body":"name, they were training"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1427.91,"endTime":1432.23,"body":"programs, figured out how to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1432.23,"endTime":1436.55,"body":"systematically defraud millions"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1432.23,"endTime":1436.55,"body":"of people and by extension, the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1436.55,"endTime":1441.17,"body":"American taxpayers by running"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1436.55,"endTime":1441.17,"body":"Pell grants and federally"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1441.17,"endTime":1445.94,"body":"subsidized loans through the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1441.17,"endTime":1445.94,"body":"bank accounts of poorly informed"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1445.94,"endTime":1450.11,"body":"educational consumers that was a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1445.94,"endTime":1450.11,"body":"on my view is sort of an"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1450.11,"endTime":1455.0,"body":"unmitigated civic tragedy. But"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1450.11,"endTime":1455.0,"body":"there is there's some good news"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1455.0,"endTime":1459.8,"body":"here. The good news is that the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1455.0,"endTime":1459.8,"body":"great deal of private capital"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1459.83,"endTime":1464.84,"body":"that's sort of flowing into the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1459.83,"endTime":1464.84,"body":"adult education marketplace is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1464.87,"endTime":1471.95,"body":"much more flexible and creative"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1464.87,"endTime":1471.95,"body":"and and forward thinking then"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1471.98,"endTime":1476.93,"body":"then the then the legacy sector,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1471.98,"endTime":1476.93,"body":"the prop. The challenge between"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1476.93,"endTime":1479.63,"body":"the glass half full and the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1476.93,"endTime":1479.63,"body":"glass half empty is that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1479.72,"endTime":1484.37,"body":"Americans have not figured out"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1479.72,"endTime":1484.37,"body":"how to create a responsible"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1484.37,"endTime":1488.27,"body":"marketplace. For education"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1484.37,"endTime":1488.27,"body":"business. It's essentially"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1488.27,"endTime":1492.65,"body":"pretty regulatory. The"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1488.27,"endTime":1492.65,"body":"regulatory capacity that the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1492.65,"endTime":1496.4,"body":"federal government has is really"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1492.65,"endTime":1496.4,"body":"tied to title four provisions"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1496.4,"endTime":1501.08,"body":"for Pell grants and loans if, if"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1496.4,"endTime":1501.08,"body":"a if a firm is not participating"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1501.08,"endTime":1505.82,"body":"in those programs, then then"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1501.08,"endTime":1505.82,"body":"they're essentially outside of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1505.91,"endTime":1509.3,"body":"federal government regulation."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1505.91,"endTime":1509.3,"body":"And that's, that's just a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1509.3,"endTime":1513.5,"body":"terribly dangerous situation for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1509.3,"endTime":1513.5,"body":"working learners. I mean, I, I"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1513.53,"endTime":1517.76,"body":"say all the time, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1513.53,"endTime":1517.76,"body":"can, I can purchase a used car"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1517.76,"endTime":1522.53,"body":"in the state of California sight"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1517.76,"endTime":1522.53,"body":"unseen, and have a better sense"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1522.59,"endTime":1526.28,"body":"of the value of my purchase than"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1522.59,"endTime":1526.28,"body":"if I go to seek an associate's"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1526.28,"endTime":1531.23,"body":"degree. Here, there's, there's,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1526.28,"endTime":1531.23,"body":"there's a shocking absence of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1531.23,"endTime":1534.83,"body":"information about quality and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1531.23,"endTime":1534.83,"body":"value. And the nation has just"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1534.83,"endTime":1539.0,"body":"not had the political will to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1534.83,"endTime":1539.0,"body":"figure out how to how to create"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1539.0,"endTime":1540.41,"body":"a responsible marketplace."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1540.68,"endTime":1544.19,"body":"And so you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1540.68,"endTime":1544.19,"body":"promised some good news. And I"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1544.19,"endTime":1547.58,"body":"think the good news, it started"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1544.19,"endTime":1547.58,"body":"with the idea that that capital"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1547.58,"endTime":1552.95,"body":"is flexible. And that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1547.58,"endTime":1552.95,"body":"as that in that sort of Wild"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1552.95,"endTime":1556.16,"body":"West space that is pre"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1552.95,"endTime":1556.16,"body":"regulatory, as you say, there"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1556.16,"endTime":1559.7,"body":"are some very bad actors,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1556.16,"endTime":1559.7,"body":"including for profit"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1559.76,"endTime":1563.0,"body":"universities that that have,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1559.76,"endTime":1563.0,"body":"eventually, some of which have"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1563.0,"endTime":1566.42,"body":"have closed down or been"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1563.0,"endTime":1566.42,"body":"regulated in various ways over"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1566.42,"endTime":1571.22,"body":"time, but they're also this,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1566.42,"endTime":1571.22,"body":"there's also this ecosystem of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1571.22,"endTime":1576.74,"body":"edtech startups that are also"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1571.22,"endTime":1576.74,"body":"pre regulatory, but that are, I"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1576.74,"endTime":1581.75,"body":"think, so far, at least better"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1576.74,"endTime":1581.75,"body":"willed and seem to be doing a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1581.75,"endTime":1585.86,"body":"better job. And I framed this as"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1581.75,"endTime":1585.86,"body":"a question, do you feel like"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1585.86,"endTime":1587.33,"body":"they are doing a better job?"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1589.13,"endTime":1591.05,"body":"Again, the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1589.13,"endTime":1591.05,"body":"good news is, there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1591.05,"endTime":1595.4,"body":"money and a lot of creativity"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1591.05,"endTime":1595.4,"body":"and a lot of, again, an American"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1595.4,"endTime":1598.64,"body":"faith that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1595.4,"endTime":1598.64,"body":"educational opportunity can make"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1598.64,"endTime":1601.7,"body":"people's lives better. You know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1598.64,"endTime":1601.7,"body":"we might, we might call this the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1601.7,"endTime":1604.52,"body":"problem of an absence of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1601.7,"endTime":1604.52,"body":"regulation, I would prefer to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1604.52,"endTime":1608.24,"body":"say it's actually, you know, how"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1604.52,"endTime":1608.24,"body":"does a good actor demonstrate"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1608.24,"endTime":1611.93,"body":"that it's a good actor, right?"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1608.24,"endTime":1611.93,"body":"Like, if I want to, if I want"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1611.93,"endTime":1617.51,"body":"to, you know, you know, make"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1611.93,"endTime":1617.51,"body":"clear to my clients, right, or"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1617.51,"endTime":1622.01,"body":"to a future regulator, that,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1617.51,"endTime":1622.01,"body":"that I deserve the privilege,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1622.07,"endTime":1626.6,"body":"right, of an operation, and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1622.07,"endTime":1626.6,"body":"perhaps the privilege of direct"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1626.6,"endTime":1631.55,"body":"or indirect public subsidy. You"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1626.6,"endTime":1631.55,"body":"know, I have a mechanism whereby"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1631.55,"endTime":1635.39,"body":"I can demonstrate that I'm a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1631.55,"endTime":1635.39,"body":"responsible player, and we don't"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1635.39,"endTime":1640.22,"body":"have those mechanisms. And I"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1635.39,"endTime":1640.22,"body":"frankly, don't don't anticipate"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1640.64,"endTime":1643.97,"body":"a sort of a government"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1640.64,"endTime":1643.97,"body":"regulatory apparatus that's"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1644.03,"endTime":1648.29,"body":"going to be sort of nimble"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1644.03,"endTime":1648.29,"body":"enough or fast enough to to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1648.29,"endTime":1653.48,"body":"address that. That hazard. I do"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1648.29,"endTime":1653.48,"body":"think that alternative"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1653.51,"endTime":1657.32,"body":"educational providers"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1653.51,"endTime":1657.32,"body":"themselves, have the capacity to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1657.32,"endTime":1662.03,"body":"create to create a marketplace"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1657.32,"endTime":1662.03,"body":"that would reward responsible"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1662.03,"endTime":1666.74,"body":"behavior, and discourage"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1662.03,"endTime":1666.74,"body":"irresponsible behavior that that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1666.74,"endTime":1669.95,"body":"would that's going to require a,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1666.74,"endTime":1669.95,"body":"shall we say, an economic and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1669.95,"endTime":1676.91,"body":"civic farsightedness ad tech"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1669.95,"endTime":1676.91,"body":"sector has has yet to mature"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1676.91,"endTime":1678.5,"body":"into. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1678.53,"endTime":1682.49,"body":"that that's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1678.53,"endTime":1682.49,"body":"really compelling way to frame"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1682.49,"endTime":1687.08,"body":"this issue that, that in the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1682.49,"endTime":1687.08,"body":"absence of a clear government"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1687.2,"endTime":1692.42,"body":"regulation, structure, there's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1687.2,"endTime":1692.42,"body":"sort of a lack of I would I"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1692.42,"endTime":1695.84,"body":"would call it metrics, there's,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1692.42,"endTime":1695.84,"body":"there's a lack of shared"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1696.17,"endTime":1699.68,"body":"understanding of what it means"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1696.17,"endTime":1699.68,"body":"to be a good actor in the adult"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1699.68,"endTime":1700.88,"body":"learning space."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1700.97,"endTime":1703.76,"body":"That part of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1700.97,"endTime":1703.76,"body":"it, Alex, and that's a part of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1703.76,"endTime":1708.62,"body":"what motivated this project was"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1703.76,"endTime":1708.62,"body":"to sort of think about what kind"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1708.62,"endTime":1713.0,"body":"of observational infrastructure"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1708.62,"endTime":1713.0,"body":"a nation built at the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1713.03,"endTime":1717.98,"body":"intersection of government and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1713.03,"endTime":1717.98,"body":"business, the intersection of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1717.98,"endTime":1723.44,"body":"philanthropy and the end of the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1717.98,"endTime":1723.44,"body":"Research Academy. So I do think"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1723.44,"endTime":1726.83,"body":"that that is, you know, that is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1723.44,"endTime":1726.83,"body":"part of it, I think, but another"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1726.83,"endTime":1731.03,"body":"part of it is a pernicious"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1726.83,"endTime":1731.03,"body":"obsession, on my view, with"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1731.03,"endTime":1735.5,"body":"something called results, both"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1731.03,"endTime":1735.5,"body":"firms and their investors and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1735.5,"endTime":1739.49,"body":"philanthropists tend to want"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1735.5,"endTime":1739.49,"body":"something called results. And"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1739.64,"endTime":1743.93,"body":"these seem to be things that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1739.64,"endTime":1743.93,"body":"emerge within the space of one"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1743.93,"endTime":1748.19,"body":"to three years, and they tend to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1743.93,"endTime":1748.19,"body":"take the form of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1748.19,"endTime":1752.66,"body":"completion of a program, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1748.19,"endTime":1752.66,"body":"know, employment at the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1752.66,"endTime":1757.58,"body":"conclusion of a program earning"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1752.66,"endTime":1757.58,"body":"is on first job, but that's not"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1757.58,"endTime":1762.41,"body":"how education and learning work,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1757.58,"endTime":1762.41,"body":"right. I mean, the the value of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1762.44,"endTime":1768.74,"body":"a third grade education, right,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1762.44,"endTime":1768.74,"body":"when conveyed with quality and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1768.8,"endTime":1773.27,"body":"and accomplished with skill, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1768.8,"endTime":1773.27,"body":"know, does not show up in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1773.3,"endTime":1777.47,"body":"admission to fourth grade. It"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1773.3,"endTime":1777.47,"body":"shows up in the cumulative"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1777.65,"endTime":1783.11,"body":"impact of a longitudinal"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1777.65,"endTime":1783.11,"body":"investment in skill development,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1783.17,"endTime":1788.12,"body":"right. No one equates the value"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1783.17,"endTime":1788.12,"body":"of a Stanford college degree"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1788.15,"endTime":1791.24,"body":"with the amount of money that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1788.15,"endTime":1791.24,"body":"someone earns the year that they"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1791.24,"endTime":1795.98,"body":"finish college here, right. But"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1791.24,"endTime":1795.98,"body":"the philanthropic sector and the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1795.98,"endTime":1801.47,"body":"VC sector in a tech on my view"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1795.98,"endTime":1801.47,"body":"is just naive. obsessed with"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1801.47,"endTime":1807.14,"body":"something called short term,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1801.47,"endTime":1807.14,"body":"short term gains, right, and you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1807.14,"endTime":1810.47,"body":"just don't do science that way."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1807.14,"endTime":1810.47,"body":"And you don't build education"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1810.47,"endTime":1811.43,"body":"policy that way."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1811.67,"endTime":1814.19,"body":"So this,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1811.67,"endTime":1814.19,"body":"that's a really interesting"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1814.19,"endTime":1818.36,"body":"point. And it brings me to a,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1814.19,"endTime":1818.36,"body":"one of the recommendations in"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1818.75,"endTime":1822.98,"body":"the report is very much stating"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1818.75,"endTime":1822.98,"body":"what you're what you're naming"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1822.98,"endTime":1826.04,"body":"now, which is that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1822.98,"endTime":1826.04,"body":"it's a recommendation for new"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1826.04,"endTime":1828.8,"body":"education providers. And it"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1826.04,"endTime":1828.8,"body":"basically says they should"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1829.04,"endTime":1832.88,"body":"observe the impact of their"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1829.04,"endTime":1832.88,"body":"programs throughout the life"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1832.88,"endTime":1836.42,"body":"course throughout the adult"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1832.88,"endTime":1836.42,"body":"lives of their alumni, in a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1836.42,"endTime":1839.69,"body":"similar way, in a sort of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1836.42,"endTime":1839.69,"body":"longitudinal way, in some of the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1839.69,"endTime":1842.0,"body":"same way that traditional"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1839.69,"endTime":1842.0,"body":"education researchers have"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1842.0,"endTime":1845.12,"body":"looked at the, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1842.0,"endTime":1845.12,"body":"lifetime earnings gains, or the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1845.12,"endTime":1849.92,"body":"lifetime outcomes that result"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1845.12,"endTime":1849.92,"body":"from a college education. I want"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1849.92,"endTime":1852.23,"body":"to drill down on this for a very"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1849.92,"endTime":1852.23,"body":"specific reason, which is that,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1852.23,"endTime":1854.48,"body":"you know, as somebody who's been"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1852.23,"endTime":1854.48,"body":"inside a number of different"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1854.48,"endTime":1858.83,"body":"edtech, companies myself, I"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1854.48,"endTime":1858.83,"body":"think the reason why, why the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1858.83,"endTime":1862.34,"body":"companies and investors behind"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1858.83,"endTime":1862.34,"body":"them are so caught up in the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1862.34,"endTime":1865.43,"body":"short term gains is simply that"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1862.34,"endTime":1865.43,"body":"they're, they're very, they're"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1865.43,"endTime":1868.37,"body":"much easier to measure. There's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1865.43,"endTime":1868.37,"body":"something that you know, yet the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1868.37,"endTime":1872.33,"body":"speed at which ed tech evolves,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1868.37,"endTime":1872.33,"body":"the idea of saying, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1872.36,"endTime":1875.63,"body":"once this student finishes this"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1872.36,"endTime":1875.63,"body":"bootcamp, or this alternative"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1875.63,"endTime":1878.87,"body":"degree, we want to see what"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1875.63,"endTime":1878.87,"body":"their life is like, in 10 years,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1878.87,"endTime":1882.71,"body":"or 20 years, by the time that"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1878.87,"endTime":1882.71,"body":"report comes out, there's been"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1882.71,"endTime":1887.27,"body":"four new generation of edtech"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1882.71,"endTime":1887.27,"body":"technology. So I'd love to hear"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1887.27,"endTime":1890.3,"body":"you talk a little bit about how"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1887.27,"endTime":1890.3,"body":"edtech companies can sort of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1890.3,"endTime":1894.14,"body":"bridge this gap, how they can"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1890.3,"endTime":1894.14,"body":"think longer term, without but"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1894.14,"endTime":1898.94,"body":"but also be able to report out"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1894.14,"endTime":1898.94,"body":"in, you know, the short term"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1898.97,"endTime":1902.09,"body":"sort of business gains about,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1898.97,"endTime":1902.09,"body":"you know, we know that our"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1902.09,"endTime":1905.18,"body":"learners are getting placed in"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1902.09,"endTime":1905.18,"body":"jobs, or we know that they're"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":1905.24,"endTime":1906.47,"body":"getting salary boosts."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1906.5,"endTime":1908.72,"body":"It's, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1906.5,"endTime":1908.72,"body":"phrased it that way, Alex,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1908.72,"endTime":1912.8,"body":"because here is where, on my"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1908.72,"endTime":1912.8,"body":"view, you know, Wall Street and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1912.8,"endTime":1919.97,"body":"Silicon Valley conspire to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1912.8,"endTime":1919.97,"body":"create very bad public policy"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1919.97,"endTime":1925.22,"body":"frameworks, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1919.97,"endTime":1925.22,"body":"shareholder value. And, and, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1925.22,"endTime":1930.35,"body":"know, and, and firm on the East"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1925.22,"endTime":1930.35,"body":"Coast and firm valuation on the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1930.35,"endTime":1935.24,"body":"West Coast are very powerful"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1930.35,"endTime":1935.24,"body":"incentives for business people."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1935.69,"endTime":1939.29,"body":"They're terrible ways of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1935.69,"endTime":1939.29,"body":"organizing public policy,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1939.32,"endTime":1944.84,"body":"because public policy has to be"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1939.32,"endTime":1944.84,"body":"organized around long term costs"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1944.84,"endTime":1948.89,"body":"and benefits. I hadn't imagined"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1944.84,"endTime":1948.89,"body":"raising the specter of climate"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1948.89,"endTime":1952.82,"body":"change. But somehow it seems"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1948.89,"endTime":1952.82,"body":"appropriate this afternoon in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1952.82,"endTime":1956.0,"body":"our conversation, right?"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1952.82,"endTime":1956.0,"body":"Climate, you know, global"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1956.0,"endTime":1961.16,"body":"pollution is the function of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1956.0,"endTime":1961.16,"body":"long term accumulation of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1961.46,"endTime":1965.36,"body":"externalities that were"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1961.46,"endTime":1965.36,"body":"overlooked in the interest of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1965.36,"endTime":1970.19,"body":"short term gains, right. And,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1965.36,"endTime":1970.19,"body":"you know, despite the the great"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1970.73,"endTime":1975.77,"body":"discipline, that shareholder"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1970.73,"endTime":1975.77,"body":"value and firm growth give to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1975.98,"endTime":1981.02,"body":"entrepreneurs, they're terrible"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1975.98,"endTime":1981.02,"body":"mechanisms for thinking about"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1981.05,"endTime":1984.86,"body":"investments in civil society,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1981.05,"endTime":1984.86,"body":"precisely because they're"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1984.86,"endTime":1988.88,"body":"organized around short term"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1984.86,"endTime":1988.88,"body":"metrics. And, you know, this is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1988.88,"endTime":1993.74,"body":"why this is why Americans invest"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1988.88,"endTime":1993.74,"body":"in some institutions that are"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1993.74,"endTime":1997.1,"body":"not subject to market forces, in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1993.74,"endTime":1997.1,"body":"the same way religious"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1997.1,"endTime":2000.79,"body":"organizations, public health"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":1997.1,"endTime":2000.79,"body":"organizations, colleges and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2000.79,"endTime":2004.24,"body":"universities, I daresay,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2000.79,"endTime":2004.24,"body":"government's, you know, we"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2004.24,"endTime":2007.9,"body":"invest in some institutions,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2004.24,"endTime":2007.9,"body":"because we we recognize that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2007.9,"endTime":2012.88,"body":"they have sort of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2007.9,"endTime":2012.88,"body":"long term value propositions"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2012.88,"endTime":2016.96,"body":"that are not well served by"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2012.88,"endTime":2016.96,"body":"market logics, somehow the tech"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2016.96,"endTime":2020.56,"body":"sector hasn't quite figured out,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2016.96,"endTime":2020.56,"body":"you know, what has been true for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2020.56,"endTime":2024.25,"body":"millennia, which is that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2020.56,"endTime":2024.25,"body":"education and human learning are"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2024.25,"endTime":2029.89,"body":"long term propositions. Right."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2024.25,"endTime":2029.89,"body":"And I frankly, I think that the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2029.89,"endTime":2033.19,"body":"sector is smart enough to figure"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2029.89,"endTime":2033.19,"body":"this out, whether it has the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2033.49,"endTime":2039.07,"body":"the, shall we say the will, to,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2033.49,"endTime":2039.07,"body":"you know, to tame its own Wild"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2039.07,"endTime":2042.55,"body":"West, right, and commit to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2039.07,"endTime":2042.55,"body":"figuring out ways to reduce"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2042.55,"endTime":2047.08,"body":"risks for everyone, including"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2042.55,"endTime":2047.08,"body":"including future investors, I"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2047.08,"endTime":2051.52,"body":"think we're gonna continue to be"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2047.08,"endTime":2051.52,"body":"kind of trapped in this sort of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2051.55,"endTime":2055.93,"body":"short term results kind of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2051.55,"endTime":2055.93,"body":"logic, which really doesn't does"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2055.93,"endTime":2057.64,"body":"not serve the sector very well."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2057.73,"endTime":2060.97,"body":"I want to push"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2057.73,"endTime":2060.97,"body":"on one piece of of that, which"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2060.97,"endTime":2067.51,"body":"is that, you know, edtech"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2060.97,"endTime":2067.51,"body":"companies tend to be writ large,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2067.54,"endTime":2071.26,"body":"I would say, you know, try to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2067.54,"endTime":2071.26,"body":"sort of focus on what they call,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2071.26,"endTime":2074.98,"body":"you know, a double bottom line,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2071.26,"endTime":2074.98,"body":"they want to be successful from"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2074.98,"endTime":2078.61,"body":"an economic perspective, but"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2074.98,"endTime":2078.61,"body":"they also really do want to be"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2078.61,"endTime":2082.81,"body":"having positive impact on their,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2078.61,"endTime":2082.81,"body":"on their, on their users and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2082.81,"endTime":2086.68,"body":"learners and customers. However,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2082.81,"endTime":2086.68,"body":"you wanted to find that so that"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2086.71,"endTime":2091.18,"body":"the short term business issues"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2086.71,"endTime":2091.18,"body":"that you're bringing up the idea"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2091.18,"endTime":2094.6,"body":"of, oh, we need to you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2091.18,"endTime":2094.6,"body":"place our students to be able to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2094.6,"endTime":2098.53,"body":"keep the money flowing in is one"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2094.6,"endTime":2098.53,"body":"aspect of it but I would say"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2098.53,"endTime":2102.55,"body":"that is often the The will to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2098.53,"endTime":2102.55,"body":"measure immediate and short term"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2102.55,"endTime":2106.66,"body":"outcomes isn't always a, from a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2102.55,"endTime":2106.66,"body":"pure monetary perspective, it's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2106.66,"endTime":2109.51,"body":"to make sure that the program is"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2106.66,"endTime":2109.51,"body":"actually effective. And it's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2109.51,"endTime":2113.83,"body":"getting, it's getting its users"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2109.51,"endTime":2113.83,"body":"what they want it. And because"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2113.83,"endTime":2118.69,"body":"ad tech can be more agile than"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2113.83,"endTime":2118.69,"body":"traditional institutions,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2118.75,"endTime":2124.15,"body":"knowing exactly what's happening"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2118.75,"endTime":2124.15,"body":"to, to the graduates or the, you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2124.15,"endTime":2127.27,"body":"know, alumni as soon as"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2124.15,"endTime":2127.27,"body":"possible, and then weaving those"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2127.27,"endTime":2131.83,"body":"findings back into the product"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2127.27,"endTime":2131.83,"body":"is sort of the the product ethos"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2131.86,"endTime":2134.5,"body":"of some of these companies. And"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2131.86,"endTime":2134.5,"body":"I don't I don't, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2134.5,"endTime":2139.21,"body":"agree that that that the short"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2134.5,"endTime":2139.21,"body":"term can blind to the long term."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2139.6,"endTime":2143.02,"body":"But I do still feel like there's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2139.6,"endTime":2143.02,"body":"a core paradox here. I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2143.02,"endTime":2147.01,"body":"look back at you know, 10 years"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2143.02,"endTime":2147.01,"body":"ago, was the dawn of a lot of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2147.01,"endTime":2149.62,"body":"large edtech companies, you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2147.01,"endTime":2149.62,"body":"know, Duolingo, started at 20."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2150.55,"endTime":2154.81,"body":"If Duolingo did a study right"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2150.55,"endTime":2154.81,"body":"now and said, What happened to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2154.81,"endTime":2158.29,"body":"our graduates who finished a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2154.81,"endTime":2158.29,"body":"class in 2011? And they learned"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2158.47,"endTime":2161.65,"body":"a new language did that did"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2158.47,"endTime":2161.65,"body":"that? What did that do for their"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2161.65,"endTime":2165.19,"body":"lives over the last 10 years, it"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2161.65,"endTime":2165.19,"body":"would be fascinating, but the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2165.19,"endTime":2169.0,"body":"product that people were taking"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2165.19,"endTime":2169.0,"body":"in 2011 is so far away from the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2169.0,"endTime":2171.76,"body":"product that they'd be taking"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2169.0,"endTime":2171.76,"body":"now, that it would be a little"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2171.76,"endTime":2174.01,"body":"bit hard to know how to use"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2171.76,"endTime":2174.01,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2174.22,"endTime":2175.12,"body":"That data. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2175.42,"endTime":2177.25,"body":"that's good. I"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2175.42,"endTime":2177.25,"body":"mean, that's a good point, Alex."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2177.25,"endTime":2180.04,"body":"And, you know, let's add"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2177.25,"endTime":2180.04,"body":"another, let's add another"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2180.04,"endTime":2185.92,"body":"silver lining to the results"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2180.04,"endTime":2185.92,"body":"oriented focus of edtech. And"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2185.92,"endTime":2188.92,"body":"again, I want to say and the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2185.92,"endTime":2188.92,"body":"philanthropic sector, that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2189.46,"endTime":2193.54,"body":"serves them, too, is is a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2189.46,"endTime":2193.54,"body":"recognition that that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2193.63,"endTime":2197.89,"body":"measurement is essential, which"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2193.63,"endTime":2197.89,"body":"is something that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2197.89,"endTime":2201.61,"body":"basically for generations, we've"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2197.89,"endTime":2201.61,"body":"we've we've let the elite"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2201.94,"endTime":2205.0,"body":"colleges and universities off"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2201.94,"endTime":2205.0,"body":"the hook for measuring anything,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2205.03,"endTime":2208.48,"body":"right. I mean, elite higher"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2205.03,"endTime":2208.48,"body":"education is very much a trust"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2208.48,"endTime":2213.97,"body":"us enterprise, you know, the,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2208.48,"endTime":2213.97,"body":"the trustees of universities,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2213.97,"endTime":2216.7,"body":"like the ones that I work for,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2213.97,"endTime":2216.7,"body":"probably have very little"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2216.7,"endTime":2220.0,"body":"interest in value added"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2216.7,"endTime":2220.0,"body":"measures, you know, conditional"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2220.0,"endTime":2224.23,"body":"on inputs, you know, how, how"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2220.0,"endTime":2224.23,"body":"much value are our fancy schools"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2224.23,"endTime":2227.89,"body":"adding? So I think that focus on"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2224.23,"endTime":2227.89,"body":"measurement does have an asset,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2227.89,"endTime":2231.85,"body":"like, as you were talking about,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2227.89,"endTime":2231.85,"body":"but it's also the case that the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2231.85,"endTime":2237.25,"body":"vast majority of that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2231.85,"endTime":2237.25,"body":"measurement is opaque. Right? So"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2237.28,"endTime":2240.88,"body":"the measurements that seem to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2237.28,"endTime":2240.88,"body":"count are, you know, shareholder"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2240.88,"endTime":2245.74,"body":"value and company valuation?"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2240.88,"endTime":2245.74,"body":"Right, you know, not measurable"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2245.74,"endTime":2250.39,"body":"learning. That's, you know, we,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2245.74,"endTime":2250.39,"body":"the world got, you know, some"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2250.39,"endTime":2255.04,"body":"fairly effective vaccines"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2250.39,"endTime":2255.04,"body":"against the COVID pandemic, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2255.04,"endTime":2259.12,"body":"know, not because we had a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2255.04,"endTime":2259.12,"body":"million pharmaceutical companies"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2259.15,"endTime":2264.04,"body":"secretly competing with each"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2259.15,"endTime":2264.04,"body":"other, right, under veils of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2264.04,"endTime":2269.17,"body":"ignorance, right, we got a COVID"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2264.04,"endTime":2269.17,"body":"vaccine in a year because of a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2269.17,"endTime":2273.07,"body":"presumption that every"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2269.17,"endTime":2273.07,"body":"incremental insight would be"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2273.07,"endTime":2276.4,"body":"shared with a global scientific"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2273.07,"endTime":2276.4,"body":"community. We don't have"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2276.94,"endTime":2280.6,"body":"anything like that in education"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2276.94,"endTime":2280.6,"body":"provision, we are on the other"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2280.6,"endTime":2284.38,"body":"side of the moon, from that we"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2280.6,"endTime":2284.38,"body":"live in a world in which you and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2284.38,"endTime":2288.01,"body":"I work in a world in which"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2284.38,"endTime":2288.01,"body":"internal processes are presumed"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2288.04,"endTime":2294.04,"body":"to be proprietary secrets. And"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2288.04,"endTime":2294.04,"body":"you can't do science that way."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2294.16,"endTime":2298.54,"body":"Right? I can I can maybe jack up"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2294.16,"endTime":2298.54,"body":"a company valuation that way,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2298.57,"endTime":2303.43,"body":"you know, that I can't build a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2298.57,"endTime":2303.43,"body":"cumulative science of learning"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2303.52,"endTime":2304.06,"body":"that way."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2304.51,"endTime":2308.23,"body":"Yeah. The"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2304.51,"endTime":2308.23,"body":"discussion about metrics and how"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2308.26,"endTime":2311.83,"body":"the new learning provider sector"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2308.26,"endTime":2311.83,"body":"may be really myopic, and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2311.83,"endTime":2315.7,"body":"looking at very short term"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2311.83,"endTime":2315.7,"body":"outcomes. Reminds me of another"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2315.82,"endTime":2319.87,"body":"quote from the report that that"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2315.82,"endTime":2319.87,"body":"stood out to me, which is that"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2320.05,"endTime":2324.64,"body":"about how the metrics used by"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2320.05,"endTime":2324.64,"body":"legacy colleges and universities"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2324.64,"endTime":2328.48,"body":"and I will, quote, quote, the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2324.64,"endTime":2328.48,"body":"report here, so quote, inherited"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2328.48,"endTime":2332.26,"body":"data systems tend to be"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2328.48,"endTime":2332.26,"body":"organized around measures of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2332.29,"endTime":2337.54,"body":"institutional success, retention"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2332.29,"endTime":2337.54,"body":"and graduation rates in colleges"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2337.54,"endTime":2341.71,"body":"and universities, for example,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2337.54,"endTime":2341.71,"body":"rather than measures of success"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2341.74,"endTime":2346.18,"body":"or progress defined by learners"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2341.74,"endTime":2346.18,"body":"themselves. And that really"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2346.18,"endTime":2348.76,"body":"jumped out to me because it's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2346.18,"endTime":2348.76,"body":"something that I think a lot of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2348.76,"endTime":2352.66,"body":"edtech companies wrestle with,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2348.76,"endTime":2352.66,"body":"as well. They, they know that,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2352.69,"endTime":2355.87,"body":"you know, learners in very"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2352.69,"endTime":2355.87,"body":"informal learning environments"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2356.14,"endTime":2359.23,"body":"are often held to standards,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2356.14,"endTime":2359.23,"body":"like, you know, completion"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2359.23,"endTime":2362.95,"body":"rates, graduation rates, year"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2359.23,"endTime":2362.95,"body":"over year retention, that are"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2362.95,"endTime":2365.95,"body":"really designed for formal"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2362.95,"endTime":2365.95,"body":"learning environments. That tell"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2365.95,"endTime":2368.59,"body":"us a little bit more about how,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2365.95,"endTime":2368.59,"body":"you know, as a field, both new"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2368.59,"endTime":2372.37,"body":"providers and legacy schools"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2368.59,"endTime":2372.37,"body":"might move more towards this,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2372.52,"endTime":2375.28,"body":"this lovely concept of, you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2372.52,"endTime":2375.28,"body":"know, measures of progress"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2375.28,"endTime":2377.26,"body":"defined by learners themselves."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2378.19,"endTime":2380.38,"body":"Yeah, and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2378.19,"endTime":2380.38,"body":"here's a I'll come at that in a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2380.41,"endTime":2384.19,"body":"in a slightly different way."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2380.41,"endTime":2384.19,"body":"Perhaps you consider that in the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2384.19,"endTime":2393.46,"body":"US the relationship between"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2384.19,"endTime":2393.46,"body":"biography education, and work is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2393.82,"endTime":2401.83,"body":"completely anarchic. Let me tell"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2393.82,"endTime":2401.83,"body":"you that, you know, When a 17"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2401.83,"endTime":2408.04,"body":"year old, you know, confronts"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2401.83,"endTime":2408.04,"body":"her final year of high school,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2408.46,"endTime":2412.87,"body":"and considers the very fateful"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2408.46,"endTime":2412.87,"body":"next steps in her educational"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2412.87,"endTime":2419.56,"body":"and occupational career, she has"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2412.87,"endTime":2419.56,"body":"essentially no map for how to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2419.59,"endTime":2425.83,"body":"how to do that. And she relies"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2419.59,"endTime":2425.83,"body":"entirely on the organizational"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2425.83,"endTime":2429.79,"body":"context in which she and her"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2425.83,"endTime":2429.79,"body":"parents are living to do them,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2429.82,"endTime":2433.15,"body":"right. That's why families send"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2429.82,"endTime":2433.15,"body":"their children to private"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2433.15,"endTime":2436.66,"body":"schools, or public high schools"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2433.15,"endTime":2436.66,"body":"with elaborate counseling"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2436.66,"endTime":2441.04,"body":"programs. And that's, frankly,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2436.66,"endTime":2441.04,"body":"why families send their children"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2441.1,"endTime":2444.73,"body":"off to colleges and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2441.1,"endTime":2444.73,"body":"universities, that kind of tame"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2444.73,"endTime":2448.93,"body":"that anarchy for them, right."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2444.73,"endTime":2448.93,"body":"So, you know, if I send my child"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2448.93,"endTime":2452.2,"body":"to the unit, you know, to the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2448.93,"endTime":2452.2,"body":"University of California, Los"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2452.2,"endTime":2456.91,"body":"Angeles, I can go to bed at"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2452.2,"endTime":2456.91,"body":"night, sort of knowing that, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2456.91,"endTime":2461.29,"body":"know, a lot of the uncertainty"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2456.91,"endTime":2461.29,"body":"that we will confront my child"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2461.53,"endTime":2465.52,"body":"has has been removed from the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2461.53,"endTime":2465.52,"body":"equation, right? I know who her"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2465.52,"endTime":2468.79,"body":"peers are going to be, I know"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2465.52,"endTime":2468.79,"body":"what kinds of educational"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2468.79,"endTime":2471.52,"body":"options are available to her, I"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2468.79,"endTime":2471.52,"body":"know what kind of career"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2471.52,"endTime":2474.76,"body":"counseling she's going to get."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2471.52,"endTime":2474.76,"body":"And this part of the United"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2474.76,"endTime":2477.97,"body":"States of your on your own"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2474.76,"endTime":2477.97,"body":"right, because we don't have a,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2478.36,"endTime":2481.96,"body":"we don't have a comprehensively"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2478.36,"endTime":2481.96,"body":"managed human capital system,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2481.99,"endTime":2487.0,"body":"like in the Nordic countries,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2481.99,"endTime":2487.0,"body":"Switzerland, Austria, Germany,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2487.0,"endTime":2491.56,"body":"the UK, right. We instead, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2487.0,"endTime":2491.56,"body":"know, give people this sort of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2491.71,"endTime":2497.26,"body":"staggering array of choices, and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2491.71,"endTime":2497.26,"body":"basically tell them good luck."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2497.62,"endTime":2500.86,"body":"And so there's, you know, that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2497.62,"endTime":2500.86,"body":"there's a lot of risk of making"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2500.86,"endTime":2505.39,"body":"the wrong decision in in, in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2500.86,"endTime":2505.39,"body":"that context. And so, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2505.39,"endTime":2509.44,"body":"one of the things we might think"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2505.39,"endTime":2509.44,"body":"about is, if we wanted to know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2509.62,"endTime":2514.99,"body":"if we wanted to maintain the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2509.62,"endTime":2514.99,"body":"benefit of an open educational"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2514.99,"endTime":2518.92,"body":"market, right, with a lot of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2514.99,"endTime":2518.92,"body":"different options, right, but we"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2518.92,"endTime":2523.15,"body":"wanted to reduce the amount of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2518.92,"endTime":2523.15,"body":"risk that's associated with too"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2523.15,"endTime":2527.59,"body":"much choice, you know, how would"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2523.15,"endTime":2527.59,"body":"we do that? Right, so what kinds"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2527.59,"endTime":2531.97,"body":"of informational systems could"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2527.59,"endTime":2531.97,"body":"we make available to people, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2531.97,"endTime":2535.09,"body":"know, beginning in their teenage"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2531.97,"endTime":2535.09,"body":"years, and, you know, throughout"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2535.09,"endTime":2538.39,"body":"adulthood, that would sort of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2535.09,"endTime":2538.39,"body":"help them think about how to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2538.39,"endTime":2545.05,"body":"connect their own ambitions"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2538.39,"endTime":2545.05,"body":"right in time to with the, with"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2545.05,"endTime":2547.57,"body":"the work and learning"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2545.05,"endTime":2547.57,"body":"opportunities that are available"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2547.57,"endTime":2551.71,"body":"to them in time one, right? We"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2547.57,"endTime":2551.71,"body":"don't, we don't have that kind"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2551.71,"endTime":2555.67,"body":"of map for people in the United"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2551.71,"endTime":2555.67,"body":"States. And we certainly don't"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2555.67,"endTime":2560.89,"body":"have a data ecosystem that would"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2555.67,"endTime":2560.89,"body":"enable people to, to place"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2560.89,"endTime":2565.69,"body":"themselves, you know, in this"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2560.89,"endTime":2565.69,"body":"ecology, and consider, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2565.69,"endTime":2568.93,"body":"investments in their own"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2565.69,"endTime":2568.93,"body":"futures, on the basis of some"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2568.93,"endTime":2571.54,"body":"kind of systematic evidence. So,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2568.93,"endTime":2571.54,"body":"you know, that's what we were"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2571.54,"endTime":2576.04,"body":"sort of hinting at with that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2571.54,"endTime":2576.04,"body":"sentence that you quoted is, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2576.04,"endTime":2579.67,"body":"know, rather than thinking just"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2576.04,"endTime":2579.67,"body":"in terms of, you know, does"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2579.67,"endTime":2584.83,"body":"program X, you know, complete a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2579.67,"endTime":2584.83,"body":"high enough proportion of people"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2584.83,"endTime":2589.63,"body":"who enter it, it's like, how"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2584.83,"endTime":2589.63,"body":"might we help people make sense"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2589.63,"endTime":2592.45,"body":"of the options that are"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2589.63,"endTime":2592.45,"body":"available to them and connect"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2593.02,"endTime":2596.41,"body":"cause and effect in their own"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2593.02,"endTime":2596.41,"body":"educational trajectories? in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2596.41,"endTime":2598.18,"body":"ways that would be less risky"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2596.41,"endTime":2598.18,"body":"for"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2598.18,"endTime":2602.47,"body":"them? There"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2598.18,"endTime":2602.47,"body":"was a college scorecard project"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2602.47,"endTime":2605.62,"body":"from the federal government. At"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2602.47,"endTime":2605.62,"body":"this point, I guess it would"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2605.62,"endTime":2608.5,"body":"have been six to 10 years ago."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2609.37,"endTime":2611.71,"body":"Creation,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2609.37,"endTime":2611.71,"body":"yeah. That"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2611.74,"endTime":2614.35,"body":"was designed"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2611.74,"endTime":2614.35,"body":"to, if I understood it"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2614.35,"endTime":2618.19,"body":"correctly, to try to begin to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2614.35,"endTime":2618.19,"body":"have that conversation to put"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2618.49,"endTime":2624.1,"body":"all of those incredible array of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2618.49,"endTime":2624.1,"body":"options for a graduating high"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2624.1,"endTime":2627.37,"body":"school student, or for somebody"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2624.1,"endTime":2627.37,"body":"looking to go back to school"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2627.94,"endTime":2633.67,"body":"onto a relatively level playing"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2627.94,"endTime":2633.67,"body":"field with relation in relation"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2633.67,"endTime":2636.67,"body":"to the metrics and the outcomes."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2633.67,"endTime":2636.67,"body":"And, you know, it also puts me"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2636.67,"endTime":2640.9,"body":"in mind of Raj Chetty his work,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2636.67,"endTime":2640.9,"body":"I tried to write about about,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2641.08,"endTime":2643.9,"body":"you know, which schools are"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2641.08,"endTime":2643.9,"body":"useful for sort of economic"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2643.9,"endTime":2647.59,"body":"mobility for getting for moving"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2643.9,"endTime":2647.59,"body":"students from the lowest"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2647.62,"endTime":2653.65,"body":"quintile to the higher quintiles"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2647.62,"endTime":2653.65,"body":"of, of income. I guess my"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2653.65,"endTime":2656.71,"body":"question around that is that,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2653.65,"endTime":2656.71,"body":"you know, it felt like the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2656.71,"endTime":2661.96,"body":"project like that might, in an"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2656.71,"endTime":2661.96,"body":"ideal world, those might have"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2662.14,"endTime":2664.93,"body":"really moved the needle and sort"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2662.14,"endTime":2664.93,"body":"of given people some of the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2664.93,"endTime":2668.35,"body":"information they need to make"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2664.93,"endTime":2668.35,"body":"wise post secondary decisions,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2668.35,"endTime":2673.63,"body":"but I don't know if they've"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2668.35,"endTime":2673.63,"body":"really, if they really have I'm"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2673.63,"endTime":2674.2,"body":"not sure."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2674.44,"endTime":2677.2,"body":"Let me let me"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2674.44,"endTime":2677.2,"body":"underline your phrase, try to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2677.2,"endTime":2681.49,"body":"begin to have that conversation."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2677.2,"endTime":2681.49,"body":"I'd say that's pretty much"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2681.49,"endTime":2686.44,"body":"right. So again, this is this is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2681.49,"endTime":2686.44,"body":"a place in which the the legacy"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2686.44,"endTime":2689.59,"body":"sector, you know, I would say"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2686.44,"endTime":2689.59,"body":"the conventional colleges and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2689.59,"endTime":2692.83,"body":"universities don't have terribly"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2689.59,"endTime":2692.83,"body":"much to brag about. So the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2692.83,"endTime":2697.72,"body":"spelling's commission report of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2692.83,"endTime":2697.72,"body":"the early 2000s had surfaced a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2697.72,"endTime":2701.89,"body":"clear call for the creation of a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2697.72,"endTime":2701.89,"body":"student unit record system in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2701.89,"endTime":2706.42,"body":"the United States, which which"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2701.89,"endTime":2706.42,"body":"would enable longitudinal"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2706.42,"endTime":2711.58,"body":"observation of how people"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2706.42,"endTime":2711.58,"body":"accumulate academic credits, as"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2711.58,"endTime":2714.82,"body":"they move across institutions"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2711.58,"endTime":2714.82,"body":"over the course of their lives,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2715.06,"endTime":2718.78,"body":"and then link that link that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2715.06,"endTime":2718.78,"body":"educational attainment with"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2718.81,"endTime":2723.07,"body":"earnings. And it was the higher"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2718.81,"endTime":2723.07,"body":"education lobby, that made the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2723.07,"endTime":2727.45,"body":"creation of a student unit"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2723.07,"endTime":2727.45,"body":"record system illegal in in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2727.45,"endTime":2731.17,"body":"Congress and in the name of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2727.45,"endTime":2731.17,"body":"privacy, which on my view, was"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2731.17,"endTime":2736.45,"body":"to unmitigated just dodge of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2731.17,"endTime":2736.45,"body":"public observation, right."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2737.38,"endTime":2741.97,"body":"Because because higher education"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2737.38,"endTime":2741.97,"body":"leaders recognized appropriately"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2741.97,"endTime":2746.56,"body":"that all that all of the news in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2741.97,"endTime":2746.56,"body":"such a system would not be good."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2746.68,"endTime":2750.91,"body":"And they sort of successfully"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2746.68,"endTime":2750.91,"body":"blocked the creation of of that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2750.91,"endTime":2754.75,"body":"kind of, of that kind of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2750.91,"endTime":2754.75,"body":"endeavor, you know, begin to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2754.75,"endTime":2758.05,"body":"start to have the conversation."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2754.75,"endTime":2758.05,"body":"You know, the the projects that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2758.14,"endTime":2761.8,"body":"mentioned, we're all are all"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2758.14,"endTime":2761.8,"body":"organized on the basis of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2762.28,"endTime":2765.64,"body":"schools that receive funds under"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2762.28,"endTime":2765.64,"body":"Title four of the Higher"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2765.64,"endTime":2769.3,"body":"Education Act of 1965, which is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2765.64,"endTime":2769.3,"body":"essentially Pell grants and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2769.69,"endTime":2774.7,"body":"subsidized loans, right. Any"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2769.69,"endTime":2774.7,"body":"provider that doesn't make use"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2774.73,"endTime":2778.87,"body":"of those of those financial"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2774.73,"endTime":2778.87,"body":"instruments does not report so"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2778.9,"endTime":2781.57,"body":"and this is something we call"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2778.9,"endTime":2781.57,"body":"for expressly in our project,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2781.57,"endTime":2786.73,"body":"right? The the course eras, the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2781.57,"endTime":2786.73,"body":"to us the guild's, the General"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2786.73,"endTime":2790.69,"body":"Assembly's, right, all of these"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2786.73,"endTime":2790.69,"body":"organizations that don't receive"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2790.75,"endTime":2794.83,"body":"government funds also do not"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2790.75,"endTime":2794.83,"body":"report any information about"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2794.86,"endTime":2798.43,"body":"cost or outcomes, which"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2794.86,"endTime":2798.43,"body":"effectively makes it impossible"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2798.43,"endTime":2804.28,"body":"to make informed public policy"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2798.43,"endTime":2804.28,"body":"for the sector. So yeah, that's,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2804.31,"endTime":2807.28,"body":"that's the kind of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2804.31,"endTime":2807.28,"body":"infrastructure that we're"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2807.37,"endTime":2811.21,"body":"calling for, right, a kind of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2807.37,"endTime":2811.21,"body":"recognition that, you know, if"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2811.21,"endTime":2815.71,"body":"we're going to tame the beast"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2811.21,"endTime":2815.71,"body":"of, of the tech sector, and on"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2815.71,"endTime":2820.54,"body":"my view, you know, make it more"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2815.71,"endTime":2820.54,"body":"cumulatively effective, both for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2820.57,"endTime":2824.05,"body":"learners and for investors,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2820.57,"endTime":2824.05,"body":"we're going to have to create"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2824.05,"endTime":2829.18,"body":"some sort of mechanism for for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2824.05,"endTime":2829.18,"body":"knowing what works and what"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2829.18,"endTime":2833.17,"body":"doesn't, why, under what"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2829.18,"endTime":2833.17,"body":"conditions for which, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2833.17,"endTime":2836.68,"body":"for which kinds of men and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2833.17,"endTime":2836.68,"body":"women, I'm not asking Washington"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2836.68,"endTime":2841.57,"body":"to do that. In fact, we're,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2836.68,"endTime":2841.57,"body":"we're calling on alternative"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2841.57,"endTime":2846.82,"body":"providers themselves to take the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2841.57,"endTime":2846.82,"body":"initiative to imagine what that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2846.82,"endTime":2849.88,"body":"infrastructure might look like,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2846.82,"endTime":2849.88,"body":"and how it might be paid for."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2850.54,"endTime":2853.24,"body":"Yeah, that"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2850.54,"endTime":2853.24,"body":"it's a great point. And, you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2853.24,"endTime":2858.43,"body":"know, I think the the, some of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2853.24,"endTime":2858.43,"body":"the new providers you named, you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2858.43,"endTime":2863.2,"body":"know, to you Coursera guild"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2858.43,"endTime":2863.2,"body":"General Assembly, they each do"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2863.2,"endTime":2867.73,"body":"have some version of a public"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2863.2,"endTime":2867.73,"body":"outcomes report where they,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2867.91,"endTime":2871.87,"body":"where they explain, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2867.91,"endTime":2871.87,"body":"what percentage of their income,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2871.93,"endTime":2876.79,"body":"right, and so, but But what is,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2871.93,"endTime":2876.79,"body":"I think, drastically missing is"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2876.79,"endTime":2879.64,"body":"any kind of alignment with each"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2876.79,"endTime":2879.64,"body":"other. So there's no way that"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2879.64,"endTime":2884.11,"body":"any student per prospective"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2879.64,"endTime":2884.11,"body":"student could look at General"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2884.11,"endTime":2887.08,"body":"Assembly's report and Coursera"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2884.11,"endTime":2887.08,"body":"is report until use report and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2887.08,"endTime":2892.09,"body":"guilds report and decide with"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2887.08,"endTime":2892.09,"body":"any kind of, you know, accuracy,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2892.27,"endTime":2895.69,"body":"which one is more is most, you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2892.27,"endTime":2895.69,"body":"know, is most effective for"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2895.69,"endTime":2899.5,"body":"people like them, because each"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2895.69,"endTime":2899.5,"body":"of the each of these insert each"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2899.5,"endTime":2902.92,"body":"of these companies, does it"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2899.5,"endTime":2902.92,"body":"under their own logic with their"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2902.92,"endTime":2907.3,"body":"own data. And it does just no"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":2902.92,"endTime":2907.3,"body":"oversight from anybody."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2907.72,"endTime":2909.97,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2907.72,"endTime":2909.97,"body":"I mean, another way of saying it"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2909.97,"endTime":2915.67,"body":"is it takes it takes a lot of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2909.97,"endTime":2915.67,"body":"cooperation to compete. And, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2915.67,"endTime":2918.94,"body":"know, think, for example, about"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2915.67,"endTime":2918.94,"body":"intercollegiate or Olympic"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2918.94,"endTime":2922.96,"body":"athlete athletics, right? You"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2918.94,"endTime":2922.96,"body":"know, in order for there to be"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2922.99,"endTime":2926.47,"body":"national or global sports"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2922.99,"endTime":2926.47,"body":"competitions, right,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2926.53,"endTime":2932.83,"body":"participants have to, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2926.53,"endTime":2932.83,"body":"a seed to a fairly elaborate,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2932.86,"endTime":2939.25,"body":"you know, set of agreements that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2932.86,"endTime":2939.25,"body":"enable competition to happen"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2939.52,"endTime":2943.6,"body":"routinely, right now, and we"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2939.52,"endTime":2943.6,"body":"don't have anything like that,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2943.66,"endTime":2948.97,"body":"in the post secondary space,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2943.66,"endTime":2948.97,"body":"right, we have, we have a lot"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2948.97,"endTime":2951.01,"body":"of, we have a lot of, it's"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2948.97,"endTime":2951.01,"body":"something that's kind of more"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2951.01,"endTime":2955.87,"body":"akin to, like a medicine show or"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2951.01,"endTime":2955.87,"body":"a circus, where everyone's sort"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2955.87,"endTime":2960.37,"body":"of vying for eyeballs and, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2955.87,"endTime":2960.37,"body":"know, making promises, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2960.4,"endTime":2964.09,"body":"on again, on the basis of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2960.4,"endTime":2964.09,"body":"something called results, right,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2964.12,"endTime":2968.95,"body":"the mechanics of which are, are"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2964.12,"endTime":2968.95,"body":"almost never revealed, right."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2969.25,"endTime":2974.56,"body":"And, you know, I sort of prefer"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2969.25,"endTime":2974.56,"body":"to like, have a educational"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2974.59,"endTime":2979.3,"body":"ecosystem that looks more like"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2974.59,"endTime":2979.3,"body":"professional sports or the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2979.3,"endTime":2985.27,"body":"global Olympic system than like"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2979.3,"endTime":2985.27,"body":"a circus or not that those, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2985.27,"endTime":2988.78,"body":"know, not the coordinated"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2985.27,"endTime":2988.78,"body":"markets are ever perfect by any"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2988.78,"endTime":2992.98,"body":"stretch, but again, they they"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2988.78,"endTime":2992.98,"body":"reduce risk, and they reduce"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2993.01,"endTime":2997.03,"body":"risk, especially for the most"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2993.01,"endTime":2997.03,"body":"vulnerable participants. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2997.42,"endTime":3001.29,"body":"And, you know, I have every"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":2997.42,"endTime":3001.29,"body":"faith that the The edtech sector"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3001.29,"endTime":3004.41,"body":"has the smarts and the capital,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3001.29,"endTime":3004.41,"body":"and frankly, even the business"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3004.41,"endTime":3007.86,"body":"incentives to do this, but it is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3004.41,"endTime":3007.86,"body":"a very substantial collective"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3007.86,"endTime":3010.86,"body":"action problem, right? Yes, I'm"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3007.86,"endTime":3010.86,"body":"not. But I mean, I think it"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3010.86,"endTime":3016.23,"body":"requires a certain degree of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3010.86,"endTime":3016.23,"body":"maturity, either for businesses"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3016.23,"endTime":3019.47,"body":"at a certain stage in their"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3016.23,"endTime":3019.47,"body":"development, or perhaps private"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3019.47,"endTime":3025.35,"body":"capital, that has a certain"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3019.47,"endTime":3025.35,"body":"civic orientation to, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3025.35,"endTime":3029.34,"body":"to try and intervene in sort of,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3025.35,"endTime":3029.34,"body":"you know, creating that that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3029.34,"endTime":3033.54,"body":"architecture. And again, this is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3029.34,"endTime":3033.54,"body":"where, I think philanthropies"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3033.57,"endTime":3037.47,"body":"are might especially be well"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3033.57,"endTime":3037.47,"body":"positioned to do this, but they"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3037.47,"endTime":3041.46,"body":"would have to get over their,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3037.47,"endTime":3041.46,"body":"you know, short term results"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3041.49,"endTime":3044.1,"body":"orientation as well, to take"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3041.49,"endTime":3044.1,"body":"this long"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3044.19,"endTime":3048.18,"body":"view. So we've"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3044.19,"endTime":3048.18,"body":"been discussing the sort of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3048.18,"endTime":3051.93,"body":"interplay between a few major"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3048.18,"endTime":3051.93,"body":"actors in this system, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3051.99,"endTime":3055.89,"body":"new education providers, Legacy"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3051.99,"endTime":3055.89,"body":"education providers, and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3055.89,"endTime":3059.01,"body":"universities, and the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3055.89,"endTime":3059.01,"body":"government, that which can be,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3059.01,"endTime":3063.51,"body":"of course, state and federal"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3059.01,"endTime":3063.51,"body":"government 1/4 player in this"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3063.51,"endTime":3067.5,"body":"ecosystem, that the that the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3063.51,"endTime":3067.5,"body":"Stanford report, really, or the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3067.5,"endTime":3070.77,"body":"the working learners report"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3067.5,"endTime":3070.77,"body":"hones in on a little bit is his"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3070.77,"endTime":3074.25,"body":"employers. And you know, one"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3070.77,"endTime":3074.25,"body":"thing you've come up a lot, and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3074.88,"endTime":3078.51,"body":"one of the things that's come up"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3074.88,"endTime":3078.51,"body":"a lot in on this podcast is the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3078.51,"endTime":3083.34,"body":"fact that, you know, the number"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3078.51,"endTime":3083.34,"body":"of learners who, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3083.34,"endTime":3087.78,"body":"overtly state that the main"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3083.34,"endTime":3087.78,"body":"reason they are attending post"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3087.78,"endTime":3091.95,"body":"secondary education is for"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3087.78,"endTime":3091.95,"body":"employment and outcomes for"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3091.95,"endTime":3096.81,"body":"career has just risen steadily"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3091.95,"endTime":3096.81,"body":"for decades. It's just now it's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3096.81,"endTime":3101.46,"body":"a very open, you know, that's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3096.81,"endTime":3101.46,"body":"that people explicitly say, I"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3101.46,"endTime":3104.82,"body":"want to get a degree so that I"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3101.46,"endTime":3104.82,"body":"can get a better job or a job"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3104.82,"endTime":3109.8,"body":"with higher income. And so so"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3104.82,"endTime":3109.8,"body":"let me just frame this question."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3109.8,"endTime":3113.1,"body":"Forgive Forgive a little bit."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3109.8,"endTime":3113.1,"body":"Actually, no, go ahead. You can"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3113.13,"endTime":3115.65,"body":"you can respond directly to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3113.13,"endTime":3115.65,"body":"that. I have I have a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3115.799,"endTime":3119.399,"body":"lot that Alex."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3115.799,"endTime":3119.399,"body":"Oh, sure. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3119.879,"endTime":3123.029,"body":"So, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3119.879,"endTime":3123.029,"body":"the report states how social"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3123.029,"endTime":3126.719,"body":"scientists have extensively"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3123.029,"endTime":3126.719,"body":"studied that how formal"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3126.719,"endTime":3131.729,"body":"educational credentials work,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3126.719,"endTime":3131.729,"body":"VAs MBAs, PhDs, professional"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3131.729,"endTime":3136.199,"body":"degrees, but that nobody has"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3131.729,"endTime":3136.199,"body":"really made sense of the value"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3136.199,"endTime":3139.439,"body":"to employers of these"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3136.199,"endTime":3139.439,"body":"alternative credentials. That"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3139.439,"endTime":3142.379,"body":"would be you know, bootcamp,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3139.439,"endTime":3142.379,"body":"courses, cohort based courses,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3142.379,"endTime":3146.039,"body":"MOOC certificates, industry"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3142.379,"endTime":3146.039,"body":"certifications, and other new"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3146.039,"endTime":3149.549,"body":"learning options. And the report"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3146.039,"endTime":3149.549,"body":"goes, you know, goes further and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3149.549,"endTime":3153.299,"body":"I think, in a really, really"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3149.549,"endTime":3153.299,"body":"insightful way and says, Well,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3153.689,"endTime":3157.919,"body":"the these the value of these new"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3153.689,"endTime":3157.919,"body":"learner opportunities, these new"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3157.919,"endTime":3160.919,"body":"learning opportunities is"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3157.919,"endTime":3160.919,"body":"totally dependent upon employer"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3160.919,"endTime":3164.189,"body":"behavior, basically, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3160.919,"endTime":3164.189,"body":"you would only really invest in"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3164.189,"endTime":3166.829,"body":"a boot camp, if you believe that"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3164.189,"endTime":3166.829,"body":"on the other side of that boot"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3166.829,"endTime":3170.399,"body":"camp, employers will look"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3166.829,"endTime":3170.399,"body":"favorably upon that experience"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3170.879,"endTime":3177.299,"body":"for you. And what would Oh, it"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3170.879,"endTime":3177.299,"body":"would always strikes me, Oh, do"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3177.299,"endTime":3180.779,"body":"you want to jump in now, then?"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3177.299,"endTime":3180.779,"body":"It's just such a long, such a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3180.779,"endTime":3184.919,"body":"long question. Okay. So what"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3180.779,"endTime":3184.919,"body":"strikes me about this is that"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3184.949,"endTime":3188.429,"body":"there may be a little bit of a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3184.949,"endTime":3188.429,"body":"sort of zero sum competitive"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3188.759,"endTime":3193.409,"body":"aspect to to this, which is"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3188.759,"endTime":3193.409,"body":"that, you know, if we were to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3193.469,"endTime":3197.399,"body":"truly find out what employers"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3193.469,"endTime":3197.399,"body":"value, and we found out that"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3197.399,"endTime":3200.399,"body":"employers continue to value"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3197.399,"endTime":3200.399,"body":"traditional degrees from Legacy"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3200.399,"endTime":3204.539,"body":"colleges, universities, well,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3200.399,"endTime":3204.539,"body":"that overtly threatens the value"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3204.539,"endTime":3208.439,"body":"proposition boot camp providers,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3204.539,"endTime":3208.439,"body":"or MOOC providers. And"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3208.499,"endTime":3212.609,"body":"alternatively, if employers"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3208.499,"endTime":3212.609,"body":"overtly value alternative"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3212.609,"endTime":3215.549,"body":"credentials more, it obviously"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3212.609,"endTime":3215.549,"body":"would threaten the value"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3215.549,"endTime":3220.169,"body":"proposition of often higher cost"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3215.549,"endTime":3220.169,"body":"degrees. So I'm just trying to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3220.169,"endTime":3223.919,"body":"get my head around how that kind"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3220.169,"endTime":3223.919,"body":"of collective action might work."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3224.219,"endTime":3229.049,"body":"When the results made really"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3224.219,"endTime":3229.049,"body":"sink one of the two sides of the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3229.049,"endTime":3230.699,"body":"education industry."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3231.09,"endTime":3233.46,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3231.09,"endTime":3233.46,"body":"Yeah. Yeah. Now this is very,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3234.03,"endTime":3237.93,"body":"another way to think about a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3234.03,"endTime":3237.93,"body":"credential is it's it's the,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3238.05,"endTime":3242.49,"body":"it's the product of a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3238.05,"endTime":3242.49,"body":"negotiation between three"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3242.49,"endTime":3247.62,"body":"parties, right? A credential"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3242.49,"endTime":3247.62,"body":"provider, a learner, and an"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3247.62,"endTime":3252.87,"body":"employer. Right? Credential"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3247.62,"endTime":3252.87,"body":"providers can make plenty of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3252.87,"endTime":3257.37,"body":"money, if they just convince"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3252.87,"endTime":3257.37,"body":"learners to acquire the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3257.37,"endTime":3261.33,"body":"credential. And they can even be"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3257.37,"endTime":3261.33,"body":"acknowledged, you can have a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3261.33,"endTime":3264.36,"body":"perfectly fine business model."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3261.33,"endTime":3264.36,"body":"As long as you get enough people"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3264.36,"endTime":3267.24,"body":"to sort enough learners to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3264.36,"endTime":3267.24,"body":"purchase the credential you're"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3267.24,"endTime":3271.26,"body":"selling. The value of that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3267.24,"endTime":3271.26,"body":"credential, however, goes way"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3271.26,"endTime":3277.14,"body":"off, right, if employers take"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3271.26,"endTime":3277.14,"body":"that credential as as a marker"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3277.14,"endTime":3281.82,"body":"of value to compensate, and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3277.14,"endTime":3281.82,"body":"that's where the ambiguity in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3281.82,"endTime":3286.29,"body":"the current ecosystem, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3281.82,"endTime":3286.29,"body":"currently is. And frankly, I"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3286.29,"endTime":3290.49,"body":"think what you pointed out is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3286.29,"endTime":3290.49,"body":"why the ambiguity is made with"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3290.49,"endTime":3294.57,"body":"this again, and frankly, that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3290.49,"endTime":3294.57,"body":"ambiguity is why I think a leap"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3294.57,"endTime":3298.53,"body":"legacy providers are so"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3294.57,"endTime":3298.53,"body":"ambivalent about alternative"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3298.53,"endTime":3303.03,"body":"credentials, you know, If, if"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3298.53,"endTime":3303.03,"body":"Harvard and Stanford and MIT"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3303.03,"endTime":3309.66,"body":"begin to purvey a wide range of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3303.03,"endTime":3309.66,"body":"institutionally branded"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3309.69,"endTime":3314.37,"body":"certifications, does it"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3309.69,"endTime":3314.37,"body":"contribute to the zero sum"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3314.37,"endTime":3318.45,"body":"dilemma that you were just just"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3314.37,"endTime":3318.45,"body":"talking. And on my view, the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3318.45,"endTime":3322.92,"body":"jury is still out on that, that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3318.45,"endTime":3322.92,"body":"elite providers, you know, are"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3322.92,"endTime":3325.86,"body":"still quite equivocal about"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3322.92,"endTime":3325.86,"body":"their role in the alt cred."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3326.37,"endTime":3329.82,"body":"Domain. But it's also the case"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3326.37,"endTime":3329.82,"body":"that, you know, for the, for the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3329.82,"endTime":3335.01,"body":"holder of an alternative"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3329.82,"endTime":3335.01,"body":"credential, the, the, the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3335.01,"endTime":3338.58,"body":"exchange value of that is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3335.01,"endTime":3338.58,"body":"entirely dependent on what"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3338.58,"endTime":3343.23,"body":"happens in the, in the, in the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3338.58,"endTime":3343.23,"body":"personnel office. And, and that,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3343.23,"endTime":3347.55,"body":"too, is a black box for this"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3343.23,"endTime":3347.55,"body":"applied science, we, we just"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3347.55,"endTime":3352.86,"body":"don't know, how it how employers"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3347.55,"endTime":3352.86,"body":"are making sense of different"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3352.86,"endTime":3356.85,"body":"kinds of certifications and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3352.86,"endTime":3356.85,"body":"credentials. And it also might"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3356.85,"endTime":3361.08,"body":"be an ideal terrain for Applied"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3356.85,"endTime":3361.08,"body":"Research, essentially, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3361.11,"endTime":3365.79,"body":"longitudinal experiments in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3361.11,"endTime":3365.79,"body":"which alternative providers,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3365.79,"endTime":3369.78,"body":"firms and researchers might"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3365.79,"endTime":3369.78,"body":"cooperate to develop, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3369.78,"endTime":3374.22,"body":"credentials that that truly do"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3369.78,"endTime":3374.22,"body":"have that exchange value. So"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3374.22,"endTime":3377.52,"body":"what we were emphasizing in the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3374.22,"endTime":3377.52,"body":"report is, you know, don't just"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3377.52,"endTime":3381.69,"body":"focus on the the learner and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3377.52,"endTime":3381.69,"body":"provider, you know, part of the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3381.69,"endTime":3385.83,"body":"triangle, you know, think also"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3381.69,"endTime":3385.83,"body":"about, you know, how employers"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3385.83,"endTime":3390.75,"body":"are, are variably, using"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3385.83,"endTime":3390.75,"body":"credentials to, to staff their"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3390.75,"endTime":3391.35,"body":"firm's?"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3391.56,"endTime":3394.83,"body":"Yeah, you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3391.56,"endTime":3394.83,"body":"know, you are the co director of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3394.83,"endTime":3399.75,"body":"the Stanford pathways lab, and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3394.83,"endTime":3399.75,"body":"you've, you've done a huge"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3399.75,"endTime":3403.2,"body":"amount of research about"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3399.75,"endTime":3403.2,"body":"informal education pathways"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3403.2,"endTime":3406.59,"body":"alternative credentialing, and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3403.2,"endTime":3406.59,"body":"one of the recommendations in"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3406.59,"endTime":3411.57,"body":"the report is that working"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3406.59,"endTime":3411.57,"body":"learners can pursue a number of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3411.57,"endTime":3416.19,"body":"different pathways that can be,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3411.57,"endTime":3416.19,"body":"you know, micro pathways, or map"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3416.22,"endTime":3419.94,"body":"or pathways. tell our listeners"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3416.22,"endTime":3419.94,"body":"a little bit about this concept"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3419.94,"endTime":3424.02,"body":"of pathways and what it means to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3419.94,"endTime":3424.02,"body":"you and how it relates to the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3424.02,"endTime":3425.1,"body":"EdTech landscape."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3425.67,"endTime":3428.04,"body":"Yes, sir"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3425.67,"endTime":3428.04,"body":"report suggests that the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3428.04,"endTime":3432.42,"body":"pathways heuristic might be a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3428.04,"endTime":3432.42,"body":"useful way of organizing inquiry"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3432.42,"endTime":3436.26,"body":"in this domain. Most broadly,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3432.42,"endTime":3436.26,"body":"what is the pathway, it's a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3436.26,"endTime":3441.81,"body":"sequence of educational and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3436.26,"endTime":3441.81,"body":"occupational experiences, that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3441.81,"endTime":3446.55,"body":"has a cumulative character. By"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3441.81,"endTime":3446.55,"body":"that I mean, you know, the, the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3446.55,"endTime":3451.71,"body":"move I'm able to make as a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3446.55,"endTime":3451.71,"body":"worker or a learner today, is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3451.71,"endTime":3457.74,"body":"predicated in part on the moves"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3451.71,"endTime":3457.74,"body":"I did or did not make, right or"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3457.74,"endTime":3463.11,"body":"the moves I was allowed to make"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3457.74,"endTime":3463.11,"body":"throughout my prior history. And"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3463.11,"endTime":3467.28,"body":"so sort of making sense of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3463.11,"endTime":3467.28,"body":"activity at any particular"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3467.28,"endTime":3470.91,"body":"moment, one needs to sort of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3467.28,"endTime":3470.91,"body":"think about the past that sort"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3470.91,"endTime":3474.84,"body":"of brought the learner to that,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3470.91,"endTime":3474.84,"body":"to that circumstance, we use the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3474.84,"endTime":3479.49,"body":"image of a person in a maze to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3474.84,"endTime":3479.49,"body":"describe this, in some sense to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3479.58,"endTime":3483.78,"body":"a path is a function of my, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3479.58,"endTime":3483.78,"body":"know, navigating a complex"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3483.78,"endTime":3488.07,"body":"system. But it's also a function"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3483.78,"endTime":3488.07,"body":"of the of the opportunities that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3488.07,"endTime":3492.9,"body":"that complex system enables. And"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3488.07,"endTime":3492.9,"body":"that's the imagery that we've"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3492.9,"endTime":3496.38,"body":"been seeking to advocate for,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3492.9,"endTime":3496.38,"body":"just to sort of recognize that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3496.68,"endTime":3500.97,"body":"people are accumulating"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3496.68,"endTime":3500.97,"body":"educational and work experiences"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3500.97,"endTime":3505.14,"body":"over a much longer period of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3500.97,"endTime":3505.14,"body":"their lives than in the past,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3505.14,"endTime":3508.83,"body":"right. So we need observational"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3505.14,"endTime":3508.83,"body":"mechanisms that enable us to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3508.83,"endTime":3512.76,"body":"kind of see how people move"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3508.83,"endTime":3512.76,"body":"into, into and out of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3512.82,"endTime":3517.41,"body":"educational opportunities into"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3512.82,"endTime":3517.41,"body":"and out of occupational"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3517.44,"endTime":3521.58,"body":"positions in a sort of dynamic"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3517.44,"endTime":3521.58,"body":"way. And we need to be able to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3521.58,"endTime":3525.39,"body":"observe that at the individual"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3521.58,"endTime":3525.39,"body":"level, right, Alex Garland's"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3525.39,"endTime":3529.5,"body":"career, but also at the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3525.39,"endTime":3529.5,"body":"aggregate level, right? careers"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3529.5,"endTime":3534.12,"body":"of people like Alex Sarlin, in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3529.5,"endTime":3534.12,"body":"order to in order to kind of,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3534.15,"endTime":3538.11,"body":"you know, you know, make sense"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3534.15,"endTime":3538.11,"body":"of the character of the entire"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3538.11,"endTime":3538.89,"body":"ecosystem."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3539.7,"endTime":3542.73,"body":"There's this"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3539.7,"endTime":3542.73,"body":"concept of the open loop"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3542.76,"endTime":3543.84,"body":"University."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3543.93,"endTime":3548.01,"body":"Yes, Stanford."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3543.93,"endTime":3548.01,"body":"Exactly. Another Stanford,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3548.13,"endTime":3551.28,"body":"great Stanford"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3548.13,"endTime":3551.28,"body":"concept and metaphor, that, that"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3551.28,"endTime":3556.08,"body":"I think, speaks to some of what"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3551.28,"endTime":3556.08,"body":"you're saying about how in a,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3556.14,"endTime":3558.81,"body":"you know, these all come"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3556.14,"endTime":3558.81,"body":"together in 100 year lifespan,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3559.23,"endTime":3565.02,"body":"if people longer working lives,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3559.23,"endTime":3565.02,"body":"they, the idea of front loading"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3565.11,"endTime":3568.35,"body":"all of the education into the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3565.11,"endTime":3568.35,"body":"first quarter of somebody's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3568.38,"endTime":3572.97,"body":"life, and then expecting them to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3568.38,"endTime":3572.97,"body":"keep up with the changes in"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3572.97,"endTime":3579.6,"body":"society for the next 75 years."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3572.97,"endTime":3579.6,"body":"Feels very naive. So what might"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3579.6,"endTime":3583.92,"body":"it look like for you know, to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3579.6,"endTime":3583.92,"body":"have this open loop concept"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3583.92,"endTime":3588.0,"body":"where students can come back, or"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3583.92,"endTime":3588.0,"body":"it can or any anybody in the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3588.0,"endTime":3592.32,"body":"society can make themselves into"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3588.0,"endTime":3592.32,"body":"a student, either simultaneously"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3592.32,"endTime":3595.83,"body":"with their work or take a you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3592.32,"endTime":3595.83,"body":"know, learning sabbatical, which"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3595.83,"endTime":3599.85,"body":"is another, you know, edtech"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3595.83,"endTime":3599.85,"body":"term? I'm curious, just talk a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3599.85,"endTime":3602.46,"body":"little Little bit about, you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3599.85,"endTime":3602.46,"body":"know what that what a society"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3602.46,"endTime":3605.16,"body":"that looks like that would look"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3602.46,"endTime":3605.16,"body":"like?"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3605.67,"endTime":3608.07,"body":"Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3605.67,"endTime":3608.07,"body":"right. So again, let's, let's"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3608.07,"endTime":3611.31,"body":"remember that we will continue"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3608.07,"endTime":3611.31,"body":"to live in the United States of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3611.31,"endTime":3616.47,"body":"your on your own by which, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3611.31,"endTime":3616.47,"body":"know, we won't expect the United"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3616.47,"endTime":3621.48,"body":"States to develop a political"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3616.47,"endTime":3621.48,"body":"economy, have master planning or"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3621.48,"endTime":3626.37,"body":"centralized regulation that just"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3621.48,"endTime":3626.37,"body":"does not comport with our"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3626.4,"endTime":3630.84,"body":"political culture. But I, but"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3626.4,"endTime":3630.84,"body":"I'm hopeful that we could, we"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3630.84,"endTime":3636.84,"body":"could, we could collectively"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3630.84,"endTime":3636.84,"body":"build a, a new map of work and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3636.84,"endTime":3643.17,"body":"learning opportunities, that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3636.84,"endTime":3643.17,"body":"would presume that the pathways"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3643.17,"endTime":3648.6,"body":"of prior citizens could inform"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3643.17,"endTime":3648.6,"body":"our, you know, could inform"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3648.63,"endTime":3652.35,"body":"present and future citizens"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3648.63,"endTime":3652.35,"body":"about how to organize their own"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3652.56,"endTime":3655.8,"body":"work and learning lives, right,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3652.56,"endTime":3655.8,"body":"you know, could create, can we"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3655.8,"endTime":3662.58,"body":"create some, you know, some,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3655.8,"endTime":3662.58,"body":"some evidence informed map for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3662.61,"endTime":3667.53,"body":"how certain kinds of life"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3662.61,"endTime":3667.53,"body":"destinations are linked with"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3667.59,"endTime":3671.7,"body":"particular educational"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3667.59,"endTime":3671.7,"body":"trajectories? And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3671.7,"endTime":3674.79,"body":"sort of route rather than"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3671.7,"endTime":3674.79,"body":"letting those those journeys"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3674.79,"endTime":3678.87,"body":"unfold and archaically? Could we"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3674.79,"endTime":3678.87,"body":"provide people with, again, with"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3678.87,"endTime":3684.72,"body":"maps, compasses, telescopes,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3678.87,"endTime":3684.72,"body":"binoculars, you know, aerial"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3684.72,"endTime":3689.91,"body":"views that would equip them with"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3684.72,"endTime":3689.91,"body":"with, you know, real information"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3690.0,"endTime":3693.12,"body":"that would enable them to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3690.0,"endTime":3693.12,"body":"connect cause and effect as they"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3693.12,"endTime":3694.38,"body":"plot their own futures?"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3694.68,"endTime":3699.78,"body":"Yeah, I love"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3694.68,"endTime":3699.78,"body":"the anarchic metaphor, I think"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3699.78,"endTime":3705.09,"body":"it's really dead on for the sort"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3699.78,"endTime":3705.09,"body":"of emotional and intellectual"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3705.12,"endTime":3709.38,"body":"tax that, that high school"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3705.12,"endTime":3709.38,"body":"students and parents or anybody"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3709.38,"endTime":3713.04,"body":"trying to, you know, advance"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3709.38,"endTime":3713.04,"body":"their education as an adult has"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3713.04,"endTime":3717.54,"body":"to, it does feel like anarchy"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3713.04,"endTime":3717.54,"body":"you, you know, there are these"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3717.54,"endTime":3721.68,"body":"interesting scenarios right now,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3717.54,"endTime":3721.68,"body":"where you'll go to a website"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3721.68,"endTime":3725.97,"body":"that pretends to sort of tell"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3721.68,"endTime":3725.97,"body":"you all, you know, the top, the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3725.97,"endTime":3730.59,"body":"top programs in your particular"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3725.97,"endTime":3730.59,"body":"field, but the entire website is"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3730.59,"endTime":3734.49,"body":"run by one of the providers at,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3730.59,"endTime":3734.49,"body":"you know, behind the scenes, so"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3734.49,"endTime":3737.82,"body":"a lot of the recommendations are"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3734.49,"endTime":3737.82,"body":"coming from, you know, are"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3737.82,"endTime":3743.04,"body":"targeted, there, there really is"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3737.82,"endTime":3743.04,"body":"a sense of sort of this bizarre,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3743.49,"endTime":3746.13,"body":"you know, bizarre marketing,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3743.49,"endTime":3746.13,"body":"bizarre in the sense of a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3746.13,"endTime":3748.62,"body":"marketplace, where you're sort"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3746.13,"endTime":3748.62,"body":"of getting pitched from every"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3748.62,"endTime":3752.19,"body":"direction, this is going to be"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3748.62,"endTime":3752.19,"body":"the most the most effective"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3752.19,"endTime":3755.01,"body":"experience, this is going to be"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3752.19,"endTime":3755.01,"body":"the best ROI, this is going to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3755.01,"endTime":3758.64,"body":"be the fastest. And I think, you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3755.01,"endTime":3758.64,"body":"know, learners are so under"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3758.64,"endTime":3761.22,"body":"equipped to make to make"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3758.64,"endTime":3761.22,"body":"decisions."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3761.55,"endTime":3763.35,"body":"Yeah. And"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3761.55,"endTime":3763.35,"body":"it's, you know, it's, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3763.35,"endTime":3766.92,"body":"interesting, I do think it's a,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3763.35,"endTime":3766.92,"body":"this is one of the ways in which"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3766.92,"endTime":3770.16,"body":"this is a civic challenge as"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3766.92,"endTime":3770.16,"body":"much as the scientific one,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3770.16,"endTime":3774.93,"body":"Alex, because I fear that, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3770.16,"endTime":3774.93,"body":"know, Americans aversion to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3774.93,"endTime":3780.36,"body":"something called tracking has"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3774.93,"endTime":3780.36,"body":"prevented us from, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3780.51,"endTime":3784.89,"body":"providing this kind of baseline"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3780.51,"endTime":3784.89,"body":"information to people. So what I"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3784.89,"endTime":3788.28,"body":"mean by tracking is we're very"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3784.89,"endTime":3788.28,"body":"averse, you know, we're"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3788.28,"endTime":3791.55,"body":"constitutionally averse to the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3788.28,"endTime":3791.55,"body":"notion that, you know, that,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3791.67,"endTime":3796.23,"body":"that people should categorically"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3791.67,"endTime":3796.23,"body":"be placed on different pathways"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3796.26,"endTime":3800.19,"body":"by virtue of their educational"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3796.26,"endTime":3800.19,"body":"accomplishments early in life,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3800.22,"endTime":3804.36,"body":"as is off, as is the case in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3800.22,"endTime":3804.36,"body":"more sort of master planned"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3804.81,"endTime":3808.14,"body":"economies or human capital"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3804.81,"endTime":3808.14,"body":"systems, shall we say, the ones"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3808.14,"endTime":3811.89,"body":"that are common in Northern and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3808.14,"endTime":3811.89,"body":"Western Europe. So we don't like"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3811.89,"endTime":3816.0,"body":"that, and we celebrate something"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3811.89,"endTime":3816.0,"body":"called choice. But I think we,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3816.63,"endTime":3821.52,"body":"we forget, as you said, that,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3816.63,"endTime":3821.52,"body":"you know, that that relying too"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3821.52,"endTime":3827.22,"body":"much on choice creates the sort"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3821.52,"endTime":3827.22,"body":"of overwhelming cognitive and,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3827.31,"endTime":3831.15,"body":"and psychic challenges for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3827.31,"endTime":3831.15,"body":"people and actually ends up"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3831.18,"endTime":3835.29,"body":"systematically rewarding people"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3831.18,"endTime":3835.29,"body":"who have no access to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3835.29,"endTime":3839.07,"body":"information and expertise that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3835.29,"endTime":3839.07,"body":"enable them to get around that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3839.25,"endTime":3844.08,"body":"uncertainty. Right. So, you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3839.25,"endTime":3844.08,"body":"know, too much choice can be as"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3844.17,"endTime":3849.6,"body":"as sort of any gala terian and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3844.17,"endTime":3849.6,"body":"discriminatory as, as too little"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3849.6,"endTime":3852.72,"body":"choice. And so the challenge is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3849.6,"endTime":3852.72,"body":"sort of figure out a mechanism"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3852.72,"endTime":3857.37,"body":"for helping people navigate"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3852.72,"endTime":3857.37,"body":"their lives that you know, is as"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3857.37,"endTime":3862.5,"body":"equitable as possible, and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3857.37,"endTime":3862.5,"body":"information driven as possible,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3862.62,"endTime":3868.47,"body":"rather than anxiety, rumor and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3862.62,"endTime":3868.47,"body":"advertising driven world that we"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3868.47,"endTime":3869.34,"body":"currently live in."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3870.72,"endTime":3872.34,"body":"There have"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3870.72,"endTime":3872.34,"body":"been some fascinating studies"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3872.34,"endTime":3875.46,"body":"about how students from"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3872.34,"endTime":3875.46,"body":"underrepresented backgrounds"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3875.46,"endTime":3879.06,"body":"make their choices of what"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3875.46,"endTime":3879.06,"body":"school to go to, and often the,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3879.45,"endTime":3883.23,"body":"the decision processes have a"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3879.45,"endTime":3883.23,"body":"lot to do with you know, how"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3883.23,"endTime":3886.65,"body":"close physically close you are"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3883.23,"endTime":3886.65,"body":"to the school or whether you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3886.65,"endTime":3890.4,"body":"knew somebody else who went"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3886.65,"endTime":3890.4,"body":"there or, you know, it's it's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3890.4,"endTime":3894.33,"body":"these heuristics that are so"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3890.4,"endTime":3894.33,"body":"divorced from the type of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3894.39,"endTime":3898.8,"body":"college scorecard you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3894.39,"endTime":3898.8,"body":"beautiful information, data"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3898.8,"endTime":3901.95,"body":"driven decisions that I think we"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3898.8,"endTime":3901.95,"body":"all think about"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3901.95,"endTime":3905.04,"body":"when an ideal"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3901.95,"endTime":3905.04,"body":"person would make. Right."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3905.52,"endTime":3910.14,"body":"Right. So, you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3905.52,"endTime":3910.14,"body":"know, I have a final question."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3910.17,"endTime":3914.97,"body":"This is this, I could talk for"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3910.17,"endTime":3914.97,"body":"hours about these topics, and I"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3914.97,"endTime":3918.21,"body":"can't believe how much ground"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3914.97,"endTime":3918.21,"body":"we've already covered, but have"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3918.21,"endTime":3921.18,"body":"a final question specifically"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3918.21,"endTime":3921.18,"body":"about edtech. Providers. And,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3921.36,"endTime":3923.58,"body":"you know, one of the other"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3921.36,"endTime":3923.58,"body":"really interesting"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3923.58,"endTime":3927.63,"body":"recommendations in the working"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3923.58,"endTime":3927.63,"body":"learners report is that for new"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3927.63,"endTime":3930.87,"body":"learning providers, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3927.63,"endTime":3930.87,"body":"they should recognize that while"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3930.87,"endTime":3934.29,"body":"they can offer, you know, code"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3930.87,"endTime":3934.29,"body":"nimbleness, and on the ground"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3934.29,"endTime":3938.31,"body":"know how they really might want"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3934.29,"endTime":3938.31,"body":"to think about partnering with"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3938.31,"endTime":3942.87,"body":"legacy colleges and universities"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3938.31,"endTime":3942.87,"body":"that offer capacity for scaled"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3942.87,"endTime":3945.45,"body":"research, including the type of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3942.87,"endTime":3945.45,"body":"longitudinal research you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3945.45,"endTime":3949.32,"body":"mentioned, and scientific and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3945.45,"endTime":3949.32,"body":"instructional training. So I'd"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3949.32,"endTime":3952.89,"body":"love to hear a little bit about"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3949.32,"endTime":3952.89,"body":"that type of partnership, the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3952.89,"endTime":3957.63,"body":"the Nimble edtech company and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3952.89,"endTime":3957.63,"body":"the science scaled scientific"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3957.87,"endTime":3962.55,"body":"legacy college university coming"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3957.87,"endTime":3962.55,"body":"together to you know, what, what"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3962.55,"endTime":3965.16,"body":"does that look like? Now, if you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3962.55,"endTime":3965.16,"body":"have examples? And what might"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3965.16,"endTime":3968.58,"body":"that look like? If, if they if"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3965.16,"endTime":3968.58,"body":"these groups were to work"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":3968.58,"endTime":3969.81,"body":"together more effectively?"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3970.17,"endTime":3972.72,"body":"Well, I'll"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3970.17,"endTime":3972.72,"body":"confess, Alex, I read this"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3972.72,"endTime":3976.71,"body":"question in your notes in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3972.72,"endTime":3976.71,"body":"advance. And I must confess that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3976.71,"endTime":3981.51,"body":"I can't give you a single"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3976.71,"endTime":3981.51,"body":"example of the longitudinal"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3981.54,"endTime":3986.94,"body":"research focused, tech firm"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3981.54,"endTime":3986.94,"body":"research university"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3986.97,"endTime":3992.01,"body":"collaboration that we're calling"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3986.97,"endTime":3992.01,"body":"for, I have been trying to, to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3992.01,"endTime":3997.47,"body":"address that need for the last"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3992.01,"endTime":3997.47,"body":"decade here at Stanford, and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3997.5,"endTime":4002.03,"body":"despite some effort have have"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":3997.5,"endTime":4002.03,"body":"not yet succeeded. If you or"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4002.03,"endTime":4005.48,"body":"your listeners, you know, know"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4002.03,"endTime":4005.48,"body":"of successful examples, I would"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4005.48,"endTime":4009.08,"body":"be eager to hear of them."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4005.48,"endTime":4009.08,"body":"Stanford and MIT and other"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4009.08,"endTime":4013.34,"body":"universities have long legacies"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4009.08,"endTime":4013.34,"body":"of industrial Academic"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4013.34,"endTime":4017.39,"body":"Partnerships for radio and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4013.34,"endTime":4017.39,"body":"communications technology for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4017.39,"endTime":4021.14,"body":"defense technologies for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4017.39,"endTime":4021.14,"body":"healthcare and pharmaceutical"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4021.14,"endTime":4026.06,"body":"science for climate science. We"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4021.14,"endTime":4026.06,"body":"have not figured out how to have"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4026.09,"endTime":4030.53,"body":"industry academic relationships"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4026.09,"endTime":4030.53,"body":"in the learning and education"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4030.53,"endTime":4036.35,"body":"space. And I think we haven't"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4030.53,"endTime":4036.35,"body":"figured out the how to how to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4036.35,"endTime":4041.78,"body":"manage the the upfront conflicts"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4036.35,"endTime":4041.78,"body":"of interests that would make"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4041.78,"endTime":4045.23,"body":"those relationships doable, but"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4041.78,"endTime":4045.23,"body":"I but I think I think they're"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4045.23,"endTime":4048.89,"body":"absolutely possible. And on my"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4045.23,"endTime":4048.89,"body":"view of priority for this"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4048.89,"endTime":4052.88,"body":"applied science, what might they"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4048.89,"endTime":4052.88,"body":"look like? I think they would,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4052.91,"endTime":4057.14,"body":"they might look like the kinds"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4052.91,"endTime":4057.14,"body":"of relationships that happen"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4057.14,"endTime":4061.85,"body":"routinely on in the engineering"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4057.14,"endTime":4061.85,"body":"side of research universities,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4061.85,"endTime":4067.4,"body":"which is that firms recognize"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4061.85,"endTime":4067.4,"body":"that research, universities have"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4067.85,"endTime":4072.62,"body":"a long term view of a problem."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4067.85,"endTime":4072.62,"body":"And they also have the capacity"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4072.62,"endTime":4076.85,"body":"to train researchers and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4072.62,"endTime":4076.85,"body":"practitioners that are of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4076.85,"endTime":4081.32,"body":"sufficient value to the firm,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4076.85,"endTime":4081.32,"body":"that the business partner is"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4081.32,"endTime":4087.41,"body":"willing to both put some capital"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4081.32,"endTime":4087.41,"body":"into the relationship and have"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4087.41,"endTime":4091.82,"body":"some of the science that's done"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4087.41,"endTime":4091.82,"body":"the beat open science,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4091.88,"endTime":4097.25,"body":"reciprocally, the University"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4091.88,"endTime":4097.25,"body":"recognizes that the firms have"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4097.25,"endTime":4101.51,"body":"the understanding of the space"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4097.25,"endTime":4101.51,"body":"and the service and the access"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4101.51,"endTime":4106.28,"body":"to learners and users that he"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4101.51,"endTime":4106.28,"body":"wouldn't otherwise have. And you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4106.28,"endTime":4110.12,"body":"would create a a way of doing"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4106.28,"endTime":4110.12,"body":"academic business that sort of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4110.12,"endTime":4114.05,"body":"recognizes the reciprocal assets"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4110.12,"endTime":4114.05,"body":"and limitations of the project,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4114.29,"endTime":4117.59,"body":"we can do it just taking a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4114.29,"endTime":4117.59,"body":"little longer than I thought,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4118.16,"endTime":4123.17,"body":"but you know, eager to engage in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4118.16,"endTime":4123.17,"body":"conversation. Yeah, to have on"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4123.17,"endTime":4125.84,"body":"but we can do it, it's just"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4123.17,"endTime":4125.84,"body":"taking a little longer than I"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4125.84,"endTime":4130.22,"body":"thought. And I'm happy to say"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4125.84,"endTime":4130.22,"body":"that several conversations such"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4130.22,"endTime":4132.05,"body":"as this are now underway."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4132.829,"endTime":4134.989,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4132.829,"endTime":4134.989,"body":"terrific to hear. And let's take"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4134.989,"endTime":4138.709,"body":"that as a challenge to our"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4134.989,"endTime":4138.709,"body":"listeners to try to bring that"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4138.889,"endTime":4142.579,"body":"that world into into existence."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4138.889,"endTime":4142.579,"body":"As I just moved into the very"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4142.579,"endTime":4148.309,"body":"last question. I have a, I have"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4142.579,"endTime":4148.309,"body":"a couple of brief examples of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4148.339,"endTime":4151.729,"body":"where this may come from. I"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4148.339,"endTime":4151.729,"body":"don't think they have happened"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4151.729,"endTime":4155.719,"body":"quite yet. But, you know, one"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4151.729,"endTime":4155.719,"body":"thing that we've started to see"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4155.719,"endTime":4160.249,"body":"over the last couple of years is"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4155.719,"endTime":4160.249,"body":"some of the sort of large ad"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4160.249,"endTime":4163.069,"body":"tech providers that work"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4160.249,"endTime":4163.069,"body":"directly with universities,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4163.069,"endTime":4167.479,"body":"places like to you and some of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4163.069,"endTime":4167.479,"body":"the OEMs and Coursera and"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4167.479,"endTime":4170.329,"body":"others, actually, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4167.479,"endTime":4170.329,"body":"won't get into this, this is"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4170.389,"endTime":4175.849,"body":"this thing. Now, if we talk"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4170.389,"endTime":4175.849,"body":"about an offline but I think"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4175.849,"endTime":4179.299,"body":"that there are some people who"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4175.849,"endTime":4179.299,"body":"really want to make that happen"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4179.299,"endTime":4183.169,"body":"and are trying to sort of set up"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4179.299,"endTime":4183.169,"body":"long term relationships with"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4183.169,"endTime":4186.709,"body":"individual universities that may"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4183.169,"endTime":4186.709,"body":"include some research arms, like"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4186.709,"endTime":4190.219,"body":"you know, you see Coursera with"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4186.709,"endTime":4190.219,"body":"Illinois MBA program, that it's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4190.219,"endTime":4193.339,"body":"now they're so deeply entrenched"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4190.219,"endTime":4193.339,"body":"with one another that that you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4193.339,"endTime":4197.569,"body":"know, they can actually measure"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4193.339,"endTime":4197.569,"body":"over time, you know, or to use"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4197.599,"endTime":4202.159,"body":"relationship with UNC or with"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4197.599,"endTime":4202.159,"body":"Syracuse, I think they're"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4202.159,"endTime":4205.939,"body":"starting to starting to build"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4202.159,"endTime":4205.939,"body":"the that type of deep, long term"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4205.939,"endTime":4211.279,"body":"relationship that may lead to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4205.939,"endTime":4211.279,"body":"this. But it is interesting,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4211.279,"endTime":4212.299,"body":"though. Really interesting."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4213.799,"endTime":4216.469,"body":"I mean, yes,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4213.799,"endTime":4216.469,"body":"yes. Off the record, it is like,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4216.499,"endTime":4219.379,"body":"yeah, this I thought this nut"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4216.499,"endTime":4219.379,"body":"would get this is off the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4219.379,"endTime":4223.309,"body":"record. I thought this cracked a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4219.379,"endTime":4223.309,"body":"lot sooner than it has. But I"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4223.309,"endTime":4226.819,"body":"don't know of any successful"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4223.309,"endTime":4226.819,"body":"industry affiliates program, for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4226.819,"endTime":4231.349,"body":"example, space. We've, we've,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4226.819,"endTime":4231.349,"body":"we've tried a couple of times"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4231.349,"endTime":4235.039,"body":"here. We haven't figured out the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4231.349,"endTime":4235.039,"body":"business, the business value for"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4235.039,"endTime":4236.299,"body":"such things. But yeah,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4236.959,"endTime":4238.849,"body":"that's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4236.959,"endTime":4238.849,"body":"strange. Okay, so I'm gonna just"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4238.849,"endTime":4243.679,"body":"launch into my final two"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4238.849,"endTime":4243.679,"body":"questions by my show. This has"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4243.679,"endTime":4247.519,"body":"been a really deeply, deeply"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4243.679,"endTime":4247.519,"body":"interesting conversation about"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4247.549,"endTime":4251.599,"body":"about education and sociology"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4247.549,"endTime":4251.599,"body":"and how you know, American"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4251.599,"endTime":4255.799,"body":"society builds its educational"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4251.599,"endTime":4255.799,"body":"landscape. You know, I asked two"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4255.799,"endTime":4259.669,"body":"final questions of every podcast"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4255.799,"endTime":4259.669,"body":"guest first one is, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4259.669,"endTime":4263.749,"body":"what do you see as something"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4259.669,"endTime":4263.749,"body":"very exciting in the EdTech"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4263.809,"endTime":4266.959,"body":"landscape right now? What's"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4263.809,"endTime":4266.959,"body":"something that has caught your"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4266.959,"endTime":4269.539,"body":"eye and you'd love to share with"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4266.959,"endTime":4269.539,"body":"our listeners? Well,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4269.539,"endTime":4271.759,"body":"it won't be a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4269.539,"endTime":4271.759,"body":"surprise to a lot of your"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4271.759,"endTime":4275.749,"body":"listeners. But the the movement"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4271.759,"endTime":4275.749,"body":"to make college education a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4275.749,"endTime":4280.879,"body":"portable benefit of employment"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4275.749,"endTime":4280.879,"body":"as represented by organizations"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4280.879,"endTime":4286.399,"body":"like guild degreed and the ASU"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4280.879,"endTime":4286.399,"body":"Starbucks deal, I think that's a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4286.459,"endTime":4292.069,"body":"very important move in the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4286.459,"endTime":4292.069,"body":"history of the negotiation"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4292.069,"endTime":4296.629,"body":"between labor and business. It's"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4292.069,"endTime":4296.629,"body":"sort of its its reconfiguring"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4296.929,"endTime":4302.749,"body":"the relationship between higher"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4296.929,"endTime":4302.749,"body":"education, labor and, and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4302.779,"endTime":4307.339,"body":"employment in ways that I think"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4302.779,"endTime":4307.339,"body":"could have sort of far reaching"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4307.729,"endTime":4312.529,"body":"consequences for the way social"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4307.729,"endTime":4312.529,"body":"welfare and and the educational"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4312.529,"endTime":4316.249,"body":"social contract in the United"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4312.529,"endTime":4316.249,"body":"States is imagined. So I'm"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4316.249,"endTime":4319.069,"body":"following that that movement"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4316.249,"endTime":4319.069,"body":"very closely."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4320.06,"endTime":4322.91,"body":"That's a great"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4320.06,"endTime":4322.91,"body":"answer. And Amazon is going to"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4322.91,"endTime":4328.4,"body":"jump in in one way or the other."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4322.91,"endTime":4328.4,"body":"And I'm very Yeah, though,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4328.43,"endTime":4330.98,"body":"they're either going to wall the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4328.43,"endTime":4330.98,"body":"garden or make it portable. And"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4330.98,"endTime":4333.23,"body":"it's going to be a very"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4330.98,"endTime":4333.23,"body":"consequential as the as the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4333.23,"endTime":4336.83,"body":"biggest single employer in the"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4333.23,"endTime":4336.83,"body":"US, I believe, now, it's going"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4336.83,"endTime":4341.72,"body":"to be a big decision. The last"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4336.83,"endTime":4341.72,"body":"question is, what is a book or"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4341.72,"endTime":4345.02,"body":"blog or twitter feed that you"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4341.72,"endTime":4345.02,"body":"would recommend for somebody who"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4345.02,"endTime":4347.84,"body":"wants to sort of dive deeper"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4345.02,"endTime":4347.84,"body":"into some of the topics we've"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4347.84,"endTime":4351.62,"body":"talked about today about"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4347.84,"endTime":4351.62,"body":"education and sociology?"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4351.89,"endTime":4354.41,"body":"Yeah, can I"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4351.89,"endTime":4354.41,"body":"give you two books, of course,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4354.68,"endTime":4358.49,"body":"the first is by a historian at"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4354.68,"endTime":4358.49,"body":"Lake Forest college named"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4358.61,"endTime":4363.02,"body":"Christina Grover. It's called"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4358.61,"endTime":4363.02,"body":"the education trap. It's a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4363.05,"endTime":4367.85,"body":"fascinating study of the the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4363.05,"endTime":4367.85,"body":"post secondary educational"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4367.88,"endTime":4371.63,"body":"ecosystem in the Boston"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4367.88,"endTime":4371.63,"body":"metropolitan area between the"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4371.63,"endTime":4376.01,"body":"Civil War and the Great"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4371.63,"endTime":4376.01,"body":"Depression. And if you think we"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4376.01,"endTime":4381.77,"body":"live in an educational Wild West"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4376.01,"endTime":4381.77,"body":"in 2021, I would present to you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4381.8,"endTime":4387.53,"body":"Austin, Cambridge, in 1901,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4381.8,"endTime":4387.53,"body":"which had at least as cutthroat,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4387.53,"endTime":4392.06,"body":"an educational marketplace with"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4387.53,"endTime":4392.06,"body":"ambiguity about about value and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4392.06,"endTime":4395.9,"body":"prestige as the one we live in"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4392.06,"endTime":4395.9,"body":"today. And the other one that"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4395.9,"endTime":4398.96,"body":"I'm in the midst of is Audrey"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4395.9,"endTime":4398.96,"body":"waters, new book teaching"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4398.96,"endTime":4402.92,"body":"machines, the history of"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4398.96,"endTime":4402.92,"body":"personalized learning. Another"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4402.92,"endTime":4406.43,"body":"American faith is that something"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4402.92,"endTime":4406.43,"body":"called technology can"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4406.43,"endTime":4410.27,"body":"revolutionize and make more"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4406.43,"endTime":4410.27,"body":"equitable, the education"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4410.27,"endTime":4415.01,"body":"process. That's a dream that a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4410.27,"endTime":4415.01,"body":"certain kind of wonky American"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4415.01,"endTime":4418.94,"body":"has been dreaming for a long"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4415.01,"endTime":4418.94,"body":"time. And I find both of these"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4418.97,"endTime":4424.22,"body":"books to be sobering reminders"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4418.97,"endTime":4424.22,"body":"of not everything is as new and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4424.22,"endTime":4428.3,"body":"shiny as Silicon Valley and"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4424.22,"endTime":4428.3,"body":"environs imagined it to be."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4429.77,"endTime":4431.99,"body":"Fantastic"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4429.77,"endTime":4431.99,"body":"suggestions. As always, we will"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4431.99,"endTime":4436.97,"body":"put links to those resources in"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4431.99,"endTime":4436.97,"body":"the show notes for this episode"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4437.3,"endTime":4441.08,"body":"fessor, Mitchell Stephens, what"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4437.3,"endTime":4441.08,"body":"a fascinating and really, really"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4441.65,"endTime":4446.69,"body":"compelling conversation about,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4441.65,"endTime":4446.69,"body":"about how education plays itself"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4446.72,"endTime":4451.07,"body":"out in 21st century America. I"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4446.72,"endTime":4451.07,"body":"really appreciate your time"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4451.07,"endTime":4451.58,"body":"today."},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4452.42,"endTime":4454.82,"body":"Thanks, Alex,"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4452.42,"endTime":4454.82,"body":"an off the record, I fear you"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4454.82,"endTime":4458.78,"body":"got the B minus Mitchell this"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4454.82,"endTime":4458.78,"body":"afternoon. But maybe there's"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4458.78,"endTime":4463.31,"body":"probably enough in there to find"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4458.78,"endTime":4463.31,"body":"it half hour. Your questions are"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4463.31,"endTime":4466.13,"body":"good. And I learned a lot as"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4463.31,"endTime":4466.13,"body":"usual. I mean, having these"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4466.13,"endTime":4470.6,"body":"conversations really helps me to"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4466.13,"endTime":4470.6,"body":"sort of, you know, develop a"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4470.6,"endTime":4474.62,"body":"language. So I really appreciate"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4470.6,"endTime":4474.62,"body":"it. And this one is specially"},{"speaker":"Mitchell Stevens","startTime":4474.62,"endTime":4475.76,"body":"important. So thank you."},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4476.06,"endTime":4478.85,"body":"Thank you. And"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4476.06,"endTime":4478.85,"body":"then that the Stanford report on"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4479.12,"endTime":4482.15,"body":"working learners that made by"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4479.12,"endTime":4482.15,"body":"this consortium of thought"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4482.15,"endTime":4486.35,"body":"leaders is available, we will"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4482.15,"endTime":4486.35,"body":"put that link in the resources"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4486.35,"endTime":4490.79,"body":"as well as links to the map of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4486.35,"endTime":4490.79,"body":"life, the open loop University"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4490.79,"endTime":4493.58,"body":"and a number of the other"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4490.79,"endTime":4493.58,"body":"Stanford really interesting"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4493.58,"endTime":4496.31,"body":"Stanford studies and cross"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4493.58,"endTime":4496.31,"body":"university studies that have"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4496.31,"endTime":4500.33,"body":"been done on this topic. Thank"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4496.31,"endTime":4500.33,"body":"you, Mitchell Stevens. Thanks"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4500.33,"endTime":4504.26,"body":"for listening to this episode of"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4500.33,"endTime":4504.26,"body":"the EdTech insiders podcast. If"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4504.26,"endTime":4507.32,"body":"you liked the episode, remember"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4504.26,"endTime":4507.32,"body":"to subscribe on Spotify,"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4507.32,"endTime":4510.56,"body":"Stitcher or wherever you get"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4507.32,"endTime":4510.56,"body":"your podcasts. And if you're"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4510.56,"endTime":4513.8,"body":"listening on Apple please leave"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4510.56,"endTime":4513.8,"body":"a rating and review so others"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4513.8,"endTime":4517.58,"body":"can find the podcast. For more"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4513.8,"endTime":4517.58,"body":"edtech insiders content"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4517.61,"endTime":4521.27,"body":"subscribe to the Ed Tech"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4517.61,"endTime":4521.27,"body":"insiders newsletter at ed tech"},{"speaker":"Alexander Sarlin","startTime":4521.27,"endTime":4523.52,"body":"insiders.substack.com"}]}