Edtech Insiders

Universally Designing for Learning with Equity with Nicole Tucker-Smith of Lessoncast

Alex Sarlin Season 3 Episode 10

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T. Nicole Tucker-Smith, founder and CEO of Lessoncast, helps schools implement professional learning initiatives focused on inclusive leadership and teaching practices, culturally responsive pedagogy, and equity best practice. Tucker-Smith was an assistant principal charged with planning professional development (PD) for a turnaround middle school in the Baltimore County Public Schools when she realized that traditional PD methods were not going to lead to transformational results. This PD redesign led to the Lessoncast process - providing customized teacher learning experiences that capture the impact on classroom practice. 

Founded in 2011, Lessoncast offers its platform technology to schools, districts, consultants, and teacher education programs. With the unique Lessoncast video format and interactive PD modules targeting specific teaching practices, educators engage in professional learning that is tailored for their individual needs and aligned with their community's goals. Tucker-Smith also leads the Jumpstart PD Network, a community of educators who access flexible PD options to engage in high-quality professional learning experiences that fit their needs, budget, and capacity. She has served as a teacher, supervisor of parent support services, principal, and systemwide coordinator of professional development and training for Baltimore County Public Schools and as a faculty member for Johns Hopkins University School of Education. She is the co-author of Supercharge Your Professional Learning: 40 Concrete Strategies that Improve Adult Learning and the host of the Did We Learn Anything? podcast.

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Alexander Sarlin:

Welcome to Ed Tech insiders. In this podcast we talk to educators and educational technology investors, thought leaders, founders and operators about the most interesting and exciting trends in the field. I'm your host Alex Sarlin, an educational technology veteran with over a decade of work at leading edtech companies. Team Nicole Tucker Smith, founder and CEO of lesson cast help schools implement professional learning initiatives focused on inclusive leadership and teaching practices, culturally responsive pedagogy, and equity best practice. Tucker Smith was an assistant principal charged with planning professional development for a turnaround Middle School in the Baltimore County Public Schools when she realized that traditional PD was not going to lead to transformational results. This redesign led to the lesson cast process, providing customized teacher learning experiences that capture the impact on classroom practice. Founded in 2011 lesson cast offers its platform technology to schools, districts, consultants and teacher education programs. With a unique lesson cast video format and interactive PD modules. educators engage in professional learning tailored to their individual needs and aligned with community goals. Taylor Smith also leads the Jumpstart PD network a community of educators who access flexible PD options. She has served as a teacher, Supervisor of parents support services and system wide coordinator of PD for Baltimore County and as a faculty member for Johns Hopkins University School of Education. She is also the co author of supercharge your professional learning 40 concrete strategies that improve adult learning. Nicole Tucker Smith, welcome to Ed Tech insiders.

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

Alex, thank you so much for having me today. I'm excited about this conversation we're going to have together

Alexander Sarlin:

I'm excited to you know, you're coming from a really different angle than some of our other guests. And I'm so excited to hear what you've been thinking about in terms of professional development, equity, the metaverse, there's so much to talk about. So you know, Nicole, you bring 10 years of on the ground education experience, mostly in Baltimore, to your work at lesson cast. Tell us about your journey through education and edtech. And what led you to found lesson cast and focus on professional development and adult learning?

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

Yes, and it was funny, I'm thinking about this idea of you know, I'm bringing 10 years of experience. So I've been co founder and CEO of lesson cast for about 10 years. And I've been working in education for over 20 years. And it's all of those pieces that I bring together, but really what drives me, and what led to the founding of lesson cast, is realizing the untapped potential of professional learning. People Keep Talking about what teachers need to be that or we need to get we need more rigorous standards for teachers, or we need to think about how to hire the best and the brightest, which is true, you always want to have an exceptional workforce. But the truth is, we need over 3 million teachers. And this is not a hire my way, I'm going to hire my way out of this situation. One we need to make teaching a place that people want to do the best advertisement is to be more attractive. And part of that is the untapped resource of professional learning. I you know, one of my common themes is professional learning should be refueling, and not fatiguing, recharging, and not draining. And so how do we bring a health and wellness approach, especially the past two years, I have clients who they fall into two categories, some who are like my teachers are stressed, we need more slash better professional development. My teachers are stressed, we need to drop all professional development. Like your professional development is your investment in people. Maybe you need to shift how you're doing it. But to just be like, Yeah, you're stressed. So I'm just going to walk away is not the best. And so I bring that understanding as a teacher. But also, as you mentioned, in my bio, I was a system wide coordinator, a professional development for a very large district at the time as the 25th largest district in the country. I learned so much in that role. And then I was able to take that understanding of human behavior. I've always studied human behavior and the science behind it specifically as it relates to teaching and learning and thinking about how does the science apply to help us put new practices into action in a way that positively impacts student learning. Most of what has been done or the traditional way of doing professional learning is actually the opposite of what needs to happen in terms of adult human behavior when it comes to learning. And so I think that's been part of my calling to really focus on making that better because the only way we're going to improve student learning is to improve teacher learning.

Alexander Sarlin:

Absolutely. I love that idea of professional development. Be refueling and not fatiguing. It should be exciting, you should feel energized and ready to go. So the idea of removing professional development as a way to sort of reward teachers or take things off their plate is very counterintuitive. But I can, I can see how people have gotten there. So lesson cast uses technology to deliver professional development in a few key areas that I want to dive into, you know, one is Universal Design for Learning. Another is designing for equity. And the third is professional development for professional development leaders, which is this very idea. These are all vital topics, they're all really interesting, tell us how you develop this particular catalogue of interests and why you choose to focus on these core issues in your professional development.

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

Yes, and so this is a bit of a complex answer. But one, it's been one of my goals recently in life, to make professional development not be the worst thing. Like, and part of it is we apply universal design for learning in our professional development. And the the book I co authored. Supercharge your professional learning is literally 40 concrete strategies that leaders can use. And then I followed it up with remote PD, Zen, these are strategies when you're delivering it online. And part of that focus was because you know, I would be doing professional development, and folks would say, Gosh, this is literally I've been teaching for 30 years, this has been the best experience I've ever had, whether it's in person or online, and they begged me, can you put that in a book leads? Can you you know, do something, but we model what we've learned through the application of technology. And basically, technology for us allows us to scale allows us to reach a broader audience. Just for example, I did a professional development session for teachers, it was there, it was a full day, it was their first day back to school, full day of professional development, they're in Texas, focusing on equity, very tough place to be focusing on equity, you know, just in terms of some of the pushback. And you know, we can talk about that later. But they left it was a whole day, I'm sitting here in my space, but I'm thinking about the application of technology and how they use it and how we can put the pieces together so that they're actually in their space. And there's so much science around how do you help people learn in a way that they're most likely to apply it and part of it is where they are when they're learning. We often disconnect professional learning from the professional space. So how do we use technology so that somebody can be in their space? And as they're learning, envisioning how to put that into practice, a lot of times we focus on Okay, you've learned it, just go do it. But people have to see it before they can be it. And so how do we help them envision that the second part of this answer is how did we get this catalog of Udo of designing for equity and professional development for professional nominees. But the truth is, the hardest thing is, is that in January of 2020, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And so when we first found it, less than cast, we said, You know what, this is content agnostic, you can apply this to any professional learning focus, which is true, you can apply it to any professional learning focus, we found that it is key for us to model what we're saying literally to practice what we preach, right. And in doing so we would say we'd come in, we do professional development on almost anything. And then when I was diagnosed with breast cancer, and by the way, I'm healthy now. But it was a rough, so many reasons. Roughly 20, I was like, I'm gonna focus on what I want to focus on. I was like, Look, what are we uniquely positioned to be the global leader in period? That's what we're going to do. That's it. And so, you know, I've been an international presenter on Universal Design for Learning for like a decade now. I work very closely with the founders a cast, I'm now part of co chair of UDL, rising to equity. So really where to where did the intersections happen? And then in terms of designing for equity, I always bring my UDL approach, but I also know a lot again, about human behavior and the neuroscience behind bias, and how do you actually change behavior? And what are all the things you need to consider? And then, of course, I want to make professional development be better. And so I said, those are the three things. And that's it. That's what we're gonna do. And what's amazing is that's when lesson cast really started to take off.

Alexander Sarlin:

That makes sense, because these are things you are incredibly passionate about and that you are a world expert, and you wanted to focus on the things you know, work, and that were your sort of the core philosophies you believe in and that's when people really get excited to learn.

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

Yeah, and then something about the pressure of having limited time. Yeah, like I had to contemplate having limited time to live and honestly we all have limited time. But me it was kind of in my face. And then also just having a limited time where during 2021 I felt like I could function because I was going through surgery and chemo and radiation and all the medical appointments, my time literally got squeezed. And so I was like, you know, if this is the time I have, this is how I want to spend it. And I had the opportunity to have a conversation with an amazing person who's quite famous in culturally sustaining pedagogy, I'm not going to reveal her name, because she shared something with me in confidence where she's like, I'm a breast cancer survivor, too. And my advice to you is to not stop working. She's like, people are going to tell you, Oh, you know, just chill out. And she's like, the things that you believe in, and the things that let you feel like you when you feel like you are you don't stop, don't stop working. And that was really helpful for me, because I'm also a mother, I have two children who are teenagers. And that was also tough having them go through, you know, the pandemic and everything, but it was some of the best advice I could have received.

Alexander Sarlin:

That is such a fascinating story and very, very personal story. And I really appreciate it. I think that, you know, the pandemic, I think gave a lot of people a taste of what you went through, which is, you know, if life is not as long and, and endless as you might think if there's all this, this stuff around the corner, how do you focus on the things you really care about, leave a legacy make a difference in the world. And sounds like you really double down on all of these incredible education theories and ideas that you're passionate about. It's really I love it. So let's talk about UDL a little bit. For those who may not be familiar with universal design for learning. It's one of the leading curricular theories for both technical and non technical curriculum creators. It is model developed by a number of people but including in David rose out of cast used to be called the Center for Applied Special technologies. I had the pleasure many years ago of meeting rose and visiting cast when I was working at Scholastic. It's a fascinating place, nonprofit education research organization. They just care so much about kids and equity and learning. You know, you mentioned you've taught UDL for 10 years. Let's talk about UDL, give our listeners who may not be familiar with this philosophy, some of the overview of what is your deal about and how does it help in person and online teaching learning?

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

Absolutely. So and I like to think of when I was talking with the folks at caste. And we were trying to remember like, how did we start working together? And I said, I'm like, I don't know. But somewhere along the way, we got married about 10 years ago. Know I'm part of the family, right? Yeah. But I really I do I love the mission of the organization, and the people. And we learned so much from one another. Just recently, David Rose, and a colleague of mine, Jenna gravel, and I, we worked on a piece called cracks in the foundation. We wrote that article. And we have another piece that we're working on right now really about the neuroscience behind bias and how UDL relates to that and how it can really support the work and be a lever for equitable learning environments. But just to give folks that big picture, if they've never heard of Universal Design for Learning, I often like to use metaphors to help people understand something that may be complex and connected to something that they already know. So this is the this is the metaphor I often give, that usually works. And I have a bunch of metaphors. So that one doesn't work later. You know, if somebody doesn't hear me talk, they'll get a different one. But the one that usually makes the most sense for folks is, you know, think about it. So Alex, have you ever driven a vehicle any kind of vehicle you were driven something? Yes. Okay. All right. So have you ever had the pleasure of sharing a vehicle with another person, even if you had to, like rent a car or something like that? Yes. Okay. So imagine what is, you know, it's Thursday morning, you're getting in the car, and somebody drove it the day before you, not you somebody else? What is the first thing you do when you get in the car, adjust

Alexander Sarlin:

the mirrors, maybe change the radio station, move the seat back and forth, so my legs can fit in the car,

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

right? Exactly. So your gut is like, the first thing you do when someone else has driven the car is you adjust it, right? Whether it's the radio station, the mirror or the seat, you may also check the gas gauge, you know, stuff like that, because you gotta get some people say I need to adjust it. Particularly, I need to adjust the seat, because as you mentioned, I need to make sure that my legs can reach in a way that feels comfortable, where I feel confident, and being able to drive and get to my goals. Well, imagine if car seats were not adjustable, they would probably fit the person who designed the car. Because as human beings, we tend to design for ourselves. And we have to recognize that my perspective is only my perspective, right? Even somebody the same height as me will have different leg length than me. And so think about classrooms, as our vehicles for learning what's adjustable in our classroom so that students can be the drivers of their learning, so that they feel confident, capable, and even safe enough to set rigorous goals and then achieve them. And UDL is a A an approach, a framework and a set of guidelines to help educators design learning environments where students can be full drivers of their learning. And it helps us think about what's adjustable in those spaces. The other thing out and this is actually actually goes beyond education, you see this and just general design in any environment. And it borrowed a lot of Universal Design for Learning borrowed some of its core concepts from Universal Design and architecture. And here, you want to think about who is most likely to be marginalized in a moment, what may be necessary for them, and think about designing that as an option for everyone. Because you never know who's going to need what in any moment, you never know who has a headache, or who broke their arm and won't be able to use it to right, right. So we're going to think about who's most likely to be marginalized in that moment. And traditionally, when UDL was first, you know, came into being and the first set of guidelines came about, really, it was thinking about ability, disability, neuro divergence, it wasn't about systemic equity, per se. And so the the current guidelines really don't even address things like ageism, or ableism, or racism or sexism, they don't address that. But we know from research, that ableism impacts learning, right, and there's nothing wrong with the person who has a disability or a different ability, but it's the bias that shows up in that space. And if we pretend like the bias isn't there, then we aren't removing the barriers that it is causing. And so that's where UDL and equity intersect. It's like let's apply this approach to remove the barriers, not just in terms of physical abilities, but remove the barriers also that come with us in terms of bias. And so that's just a little bit about UDL. Other thing I want to say about UDL is people often go to the website for the UDL guidelines, and they see the guidelines. So there's three principles, which is all about we know people differ in terms of they, how they get engaged. We know people differ in terms of how information is represented, and they're able to process that into meaning. And we know people are different in terms of how they express what they know and have learned. So we know that. But the one thing I want to share with your audience, here are some core ideas that are part of UDL that anybody can apply even if you haven't memorized all the guidelines, right? Options, and options are windows of opportunity, options, opportunity related words. And so just a few core ideas that are really important to think about with UDL are, you know, first is that UDL is all about being clear on our goals, and flexible and our means. So even though we have the guidelines and a bunch of options, do we have clear goals, then they're flexible ways to get there. It's about recognizing that learner variability is the rule and not the exception. We know that people are going to vary people, you know, sometimes students come in and, and we'll be like, gosh, they're so different. And this man, they haven't yet we do this, you should know this, you should know this before they come, that is a given, right? The same way that your shop, a shop owner doesn't wait until shoppers come to recognize it needs clothes in different sizes. As teachers, you can plan for variability before they even come. And then differentiation. And UDL are actually complementary, because you can think about what what they may need. But then as you see your students and realize, oh, I need to differentiate for this one, then you can say, Ah, what's essential for that one, I can make available to everyone. That's another core idea, this idea of what's essential for some may be beneficial for all. And so those are some of the core ideas that folks have to remember when they're applying Udo

Alexander Sarlin:

incredible is such a such a profound way to explain this theory, you know, the idea of adjustability, as the norm as variability is a given you don't assume that people are the same. Everything should be adjustable. And, you know, organizing around, as you mentioned, sort of marginalized populations really, really, really interesting. relevant to that, as we mentioned, both technical and non technical delivery of curriculum. It's really, really interesting. And you know, you mentioned how lesson cast goes actually even deeper on on some of UDL because it talks about some of the bias. That original UDL was sort of thinking about neurodiversity, or students with, you know, disabilities, but there's ageism, some of the different types of biases in the classroom are really only now starting to be truly understood in terms of what they mean for education. And yeah, lesson cast has this model of universally July designing learning with equity. Focus on diverse perspectives on anti bias on an equity mindset on taking those guidelines and principles from UDL and extrapolating them out to how they work to enhance equity. Talk to us a little bit about what an equity mindset is and how you think about extrapolating out those UDL principles to all sorts of different students.

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

Yes. And so this has been so exciting for our team and having this opportunity He wants to work on UDL, rising to equity and really re envisioning the guidelines prior to that, we actually created this whole other set of guidelines just to show people here are all of the aspects that we're not paying attention to. And just because we're not mindful of them, doesn't mean that they're not there. And that they don't create barriers, it actually just means we're unaware, which is even worse. And so, you know, part of having this this equity mindset, and, you know, building on the UDL, core ideas or things like so in the same way, that we need to be clear on our goals and flexible in our means, when we're trying to design equitable environments, we can acknowledge intent, but address impact. So that's one of our core ideas. And so often when, let's say a microaggression has happened, typically, they're unintentional. And so when someone is confronting someone else, in terms of how a microaggression has occurred, sometimes the person's first response is, well, I didn't mean it like that I didn't intended for you to take the way I didn't intend to hurt your feelings. Okay, I'm assuming you weren't intending to hurt me. Because if you were trying to hurt me, that's a whole other conversation. Right? I can acknowledge your intent. And now let's talk about the impact. Let's talk about how it was received. And so often folks get stuck in guilt. So we talked about, how do you acknowledge, okay, I now recognize that I have done something harmful, or that our current system is harming folks. So how do I acknowledge that the intentions may be good, but I say anybody could have good intentions. It's about being intentional. And so I can acknowledge that that may be your intention, but let's examine the impact. And now let's choose to do something about it. So we we're not going to get stuck in guilt. But instead, we're going to acknowledge that, okay, I'm feeling guilty. I'm feeling bad right now, in this moment, that's okay. Because I'm a human being. And I like to have a positive self positivity bias, right? I like to think of myself positively. That's okay. I'm recognizing that's a human response. And I'm going to move from guilt to empathy to action, I'm going to choose to act with equity. And the empathy part is important because people say, oh, we need more empathy, we need more empathy. In fact, humans tend to be very empathetic. But we tend to be empathetic with whom we feel like we are most related to. We're really great at empathizing, those folks that we identify with the most. And so you have to be extra intentional about saying, I'm going to lean in and learn and listen from someone who at first glance, I feel like it's different from me. And it's diverse perspectives that bring a clearer vision, if everybody is, you know, has very, very similar backgrounds. And, and right now part of what is challenging for education. Is that just straight demographics. Yeah, right. We have a workforce with a difference, you know, that is not as diverse as the group that they're serving. And so even when I hear teachers say things like, well, I want the students to know that they belong at school, they they belong in my classroom. My question is, well, you know, the student walked to school, you drove to school. So why do they feel like why would they feel like they don't belong? So we have to examine what structures what unspoken rules have we put in place where a student who walks to school might feel like they don't belong there. The truth is, the school belongs to them, the school isn't the purpose of school is for them to learn. So that means somewhere along the line, we need to shift our perspective. The other thing I often talk about we design with an equity mindset. In the same way, when we think about learner variability, it's a given. The other word about learner variability with UDL. In particular, one of its distinctions is that their learner variability depends on context, that means that even if I'm the same person, I'm not going to show up in the same way in every space, and I taught middle school, they're not the same in the morning. And after lunch. They're not the same thing, things don't work. And so we have to know the variability depends on context. And that same way, when we talk about privilege, which often makes people bristle, we have to remember that privilege depends on context. And so I was I was on a plane and I was going to present I think, in Michigan, and as I was maybe some other See, I can't remember but anyway, I was reading this article came out December 1, the original title was, well, the new title because they changed it was in Time Magazine, the December issue of Time Magazine, and the because I went on to look at it later and it had a different title. But the newer title that you might find it on is the disempowering experience as flying as a disabled person. Something along those lines. It's from the December 2021 article in Time Magazine. And this woman talks about having to fly on an airplane and she's in a wheelchair and this is her first time having to do this as a mother. She typically doesn't. She avoids it at all possible because when you're in a wheelchair or you're not allowed to bring your own wheelchair on, you have to check your chair, and you have to get in their wheelchair, and then they essentially carry you. And it creates such a just disempowering, inhumane way. Everyone's looking at you as if you're not able. And I'm reading this article I'm playing. And I'm like, wow, I never thought about all the privilege I have as an able bodied person flying in, you haven't even occurred to me. And let me tell you, I take up all the privilege when I fly, because I've learned so much I am a Lister. If not, I am doing all the things to be first in line. Right? And so I was like, Whoa, and my first reaction was I felt guilty. But then I can choose to empathize and understand that person's perspective. And think about does it have to be this way? Can we think about those who are suffering the most from our inflexible systems and ultimately designed something that is better for everyone? And that's where differences variability is an opportunity. You know, it's actually in sharing our differences that we find our shared humanity, we may all eat different foods, but we all eat. So can we embrace variability, learn from one another not be. And the other big thing that I've been working with educators on is that a difference does not equal a deficit. And that's why you see either disproportionality or under representation in certain special education categories, you know, people of color, our learners, multilingual learners, who are emerging in terms of English, they're often over represented in certain categories. And those are the categories that require educated judgment, because a difference is often seen as a deficit. And we need to make that shift, because differences are actually awesome. Extinct without them, right? We need variability in order to design the best environments for everyone. And so, you know, those are some of our approaches to having an equity mindset. We also have, like a definition of equity that we operate with. And this the idea that our internal definition that we share with folks is that, you know, equity, when we think about how can we have a common definition for the work in terms of designing equitable learning environments, our working definition is that equity is the agency to pursue options aligned to aspirations, equity is having the agency to pursue options that align with our aspirations. And so we can, you know, if you think about women, throughout history, we've had choices, they may not have been aligned with our aspirations, though, that's not equity. Right? And so I have the power to go make those aspirations a reality.

Alexander Sarlin:

So yeah, it's sort of like the freedom to pursue the options in your life. Without that you actually want to accomplish not just a limited set of options that is handed to you from an equal society.

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

Yeah. Or, you know, sometimes we, we have certain cultural values, that there's like, Oh, everybody should want this. Not necessarily, right. Equity is I have the power, I have the freedom to choose, you know, and that's really what we want. You know, education is about drawing out. It's not about cramming in. And then when I think about representation, so like, one of the core principles around UDL is this idea of multiple means of representation. So where does representation show up in terms of people, right, so we're doing this whole tour is the curriculum representation workshop series, which is awesome. It's one of my favorite things to do my other favorite workshops to do is called Creating brave spaces. So for any of your listeners who are trying to think about how to apply this work, and this applies to technology, today, we're about to talk about metaphors. But when we think about that, who is represented in this space? And so there's the curriculum representation. So we have domains where we examine curriculum, because oftentimes, curriculum perpetuates the learning that we had as teachers. A lot of things haven't evolved. And the other thing is, when we if you want a place to get started, get started by thinking about your space. And we walk folks through, you know, how do you really think about your space in order to make it a place for equity because you can't change people. But you can create an environment that cultivates and supports change taking place. So we start there,

Alexander Sarlin:

it's so interesting, you know, I wanted to double click on one of the things you're saying about how human beings are empathetic, but they're sort of empathetic with people similar to themselves and this sort of a selective empathy. You know, some of this UDL for equity is about expanding that and not only having empathy, but actually acting to support people different than oneself. And, you know, we're it's such an odd moment in schooling right now. Were coming out of the pandemic. As you mentioned, schools have become incredibly politically fraught. About 2 million students have left the K 12 school system and law last two years, schools that had did more masking have more people leaving schools that did more remote learning have more people leaving, college enrollment is on the decline. Trust in education is going down. And a lot of people just feel very sort of threatened by changes. And there's a lot of pushback on the idea of, you know, of school being a place that is actually more equitable. I think parents are very nostalgic for their own school environment, and what they learn, as you know, and when they hear about all of the different things that are that are starting to happen in school, including some of this equity focus, they sort of react with a lot of pushback, I'd love to hear I know, we want to talk about our so

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

let's talk about this too. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'd

Alexander Sarlin:

love to hear your take on this. i If you talk to teachers, all over the country of you, I'm sure you've talked to lots of parents, what do you say when people push back against some of these ideas of, of diversity of perspective and new curricula and equity?

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

So number one, no one learns when they feel threatened, right? If we feel threatened, we move into fight flight, or freeze. So some of this pushback is the fight, people leaving is the flight. And the people freezing are often the teachers who don't know what to do. Right, right. So the first thing is we need to attend to that. And one of the reasons why a lot of our the work that we do is really taking off is because, you know, I'll have leaders say this, I'm so grateful that your team is willing to work with us. Because you're able to say and do the work in a way where people are able to receive it. And it's not necessarily about you know, people is not about it, folks are hearing this and saying oh, well, you're coddling or anything? It's not about that. It's about recognizing nobody learns, when they feel threatened. And so we talk about what do you need to have in place? What agreements do we need to have in place? How are we checking in with one another? How are we taking time to internalize and reflect? And then listen, we actually do work on learning how to listen to diverse perspectives, that is a big part of creating the space. And you know, what I tell folks is, you know, what we share to teach, we listen, to learn. And the moment we start saying all these things, we've stopped learning from one another. And so how do we create a space where we can learn from one another. So that's one thing no one learns when they feel threatened. The next thing I would say is that, you know, whenever there is changed, I wrote an article called The illusion of equity PD. And one of the things I talked about is the concept of inequity, this equilibrium, and it's when environments or context have been inequitable for so long, it may feel like the status quo is level even though it's actually slanted, even though it's actually inequitable. So when you start adjusting it to make it more equitable, it'll feel like loss, especially to those for whom the system was designed to benefit. Without recognizing that inequity disequilibrium is a real thing, this gets back to the science of human behavior, people will feel like they are losing something, and we have a natural loss aversion. Human beings would rather not lose $20 than gain $20. And so you have to attend to Yes, inequity, this equilibrium, but also the sense of loss aversion, folks are not going to move forward if they think they're losing. And so one of the things I work with leaders is we need to shift this idea of loss, we need to help people understand that our current inequitable situation is losing, that's the loser, you're already losing. Anyway, without making people feel, you know, like, they just can't handle the conversation. But you know, you help them come to this conclusion on your own. If you tell them this is bad, this is bad, this is bad. That's not gonna work. But if you create the space where they can come to that realization for themselves, like the status quo actually sets us up to lose. That's when you start shifting loss aversion. And so I was working with a school and they were receiving a lot of pushback, and one of the things we do in our workshop, and so they had received pushback before me, didn't invite me in. And one of the things I talked about as well, we have to have a push back emergency kit. And so your push back emergency. So in the same way, you have a first aid kit, you don't wait till somebody's bleeding to put band aids in it, you know, in advance, if you're going to do something different. There will be pushback, so you have to be attentive to that. And so we talked about having in our pushback emergency kit, a clear why, why are we doing this work? And I said, You know what, when someone is resistant because our professional development has always gotten better by listening to those who are most resistant, and more than ready, those two extremes, those two ends, most resistant and more than ready. And so when we listen to those who are most resistant, what we could hear was a fear. Parents. In this case, parents were afraid that their child would not be fully prepared to succeed and compete in terms of post secondary education but also just in terms of careers because they're judging it based on what they learned and what they know, and how they're applying the work. And I said, Okay, I understand that fear. I'm a parent, I understand that fear. What they have to understand is that we're preparing students, for the students world and not their parents world. This is not the same. This is a whole new ballgame. This is global, right? We're not preparing students for the same world. So we can't keep doing the same thing. So guess what, if we do the same things that you got, they will be at a disadvantage. And so we're recognizing the shifts, and what the students really need to know this is grounded in science. It's not made up. And we're willing to fight for this and help you understand. Because that's how committed we are to your kids, it'd be very easy for us to say, Okay, fine, I don't need to let you know all the things. And once we made that shift, and I helped them craft a very clear why this is why we're doing it. It's because we care. Because there's a whole narrative of oh, this change is all in the make certain kids feel bad. No, it's so that we have the most competent and competitive in a good way, children to move forward and ultimately live in their world and succeed in their world. It doesn't help them to prepare them for the world that we used to No,

Alexander Sarlin:

I love what you're saying. And I think there's so much wisdom in that for any kind of change this idea of a push back emergency kit, it reminds me of salespeople, when salespeople are trying to sell a new idea or new product to somebody, they they have these lists of objections right here, what are all the things that somebody might think, in response to this, they don't want to lose what they have loss aversion, like you said, they don't know why it's there. They need to know everything about it, and you need to understand what's going to trigger them. And yet, they do have a push back emergency kit and how to explain, hey, you know, you may be anchored on thinking that the current system is working really well. And changes are going to make it worse, but the current system isn't working really well, even for your kids. It's not working well, for other kids. It's not working well for your kids, because it's not preparing them for the world. They're about to grow up in which is diverse, it is global, they will have contact with every different kind of person all over the world. And the idea of a curriculum that exacerbates you know what we learned 2030 years ago actually is bad for everybody. I mean, it's a really interesting reframing, and I appreciate it. It's very thoughtful.

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

Yeah, that's our big thing. Reframe that's, I mean, that's part of our like PD kit is like, how do we help folks reframe and like one of the things I say is, no, it's not about buying. I'm not trying to create buying. And this is about believing belief that if we put in the work, it'll make the difference to get to the goals we're hoping to achieve.

Alexander Sarlin:

Yeah. And you mentioned that people don't learn under threat. I think that's really important as well, because you, you know, some of the political pushback, some of the reactionary moves, even from lawmakers who are trying to have it have codified into law that certain things cannot be taught or must be taught. It really all comes from that loss aversion. And that worry, the I love that phrase, inequity, this equilibrium that, you know, getting to equity can feel like loss. I think this is actually a really good segue. We've been promising this the whole time. You have written recently about equity issues in the educational Metaverse, which is interesting. We covered the metaverse on this show pretty often because it's there's so many interesting things happening. But if you if you let me I'd love to just read back to you a quote from an op ed, you've written recently and I'd love to hear you sort of expound on it. Is that all right? Absolutely. Okay, so here's the quote, when building this new world, we're referring to the metaverse, we risk copying and pasting in the failings from the old one. Traditionally, technology, Investment and Development has dominated by one demographic, white men. According to the National Venture Capital Association, 89% of VC partners are white, and 76% are white men. 79% of software developers are males and 56% of software developers are white, it is hardly surprising them that 80% of video game characters are white and male. This matters, it will be down to these people to decide which worlds get built and which get left behind. Unfortunately, modern technology has an alarming tendency to mechanize bias. Yeah, so interesting,

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

please, yes. And so this is something that I feel very, very passionate about. Oftentimes, folks think that because it's the scientific method, that it's not biased. And this is one thing that I will not let go is to help people understand that if we ignore the bias that we bring to spaces, we are doomed to literally program them into new environments. We will literally program them into the metaverse and this isn't new. We already have schools in this space, right. And so one of the things and I'm going to talk about this why this is personal, but just so folks know that like I'm not in leftfield with this, I encouraged them to watch coded bias, where it talks about how those who are programming, facial recognition and facial detection literally have programmed them in a way that they don't see black female faces. They don't, they're more likely to recognize animal faces than black female faces, because they were, but they are 99% accurate for white men. Because white men designed them. Right? And then also weapons of mass destruction, right is coded into we think, Oh, because a computer did it. It's objective, no, because a human programmed that algorithm. And so if we don't have diverse groups at the table, we will recreate inequity moving forward. And so one of my reasons is one, we have to be proactive, and making sure that there are diverse folks at the table to we need need to be responsive. And like watch, we need to include in our trials, for example, we need to have diverse representation and trials, and not just in terms of diverse reputation, and who's being evaluated in the trials, but who's doing the evaluating. And I'll give you an example as to why this is important. And then also, we need to be reflective, and have some humility in that reflection, and recognize that we don't know everything and take that as an opportunity to learn. And so now here's why this really hit me in my heart. So I mentioned to you that, you know, I had breast cancer and one of the newer technologies at the time is called a scalp cooling cap. And there are different brands, it was approved by the FDA and like 2017, so it was still somewhat new. And because of COVID I couldn't have anybody help me in the hospital when I was going through chemo, so the nurses had helped me. And the way a scalp cooling cap works. And honestly, I was okay with being bald for a little bit. But if there was anything I could do to prevent long term baldness, I wanted to do that. And so came recommended to me that I purchased the scalp cooling cap, mind you not covered by insurance, very expensive. So I have this scalp pulling cap, and they tell me and so I don't know if your audience is gonna get this because I don't know their demographics. But one of the things they told me was okay, in order for it to work, we need you to really wet your hair. So it'll lie flat. And I was like, my hair does not do that.

Unknown:

need you to

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

tell me what's most important. You needed to be flat, or wet. But it can't be both. Like, it's not gonna happen. I was like, when you I wet my hair, it expands. They're like, You know what, that's so true. We have this black woman and yesterday, we wet her hair anyway. And anyway, long story short, I wrote an article about this called why the debate in school curriculum matters to everyone. And so part of it was, you know, they invented something and then designed it for and even in their clinical trials only included Caucasian women. And even when they tried to make the representation and the trials more inclusive, the people who were doing the work still did not understand they were insistent on following the same protocols because they're wedded to this idea of fidelity. And then I talked to my best friend also runs a brain lab. And I'm like, they keep talking about wetting my hair for conductivity. I feel like that's made up. And she's been No, it's not made up. But you don't have to use water for conductivity. You can use gel, like hair gel. That's what I use when I'm with people of color, or it just It could even be a white person with very curly hair. Right, right. And so I was like, Oh, I know how to make my hair lie flat with some hair gel. Why? I was so upset with this. And so I'm like, You know what, we have to remove this idea that just because it's scientific, it's objective? No, it's done by human beings. And so, you know, I am determined that as we look at this new Metaverse, who is in the space, and if we care at all, look around, are we designing experiences based on what we've always done? Are they fully inclusive? And you can even be a person who say, Well, you know, I do a lot of reading did it up, but you will always lean towards designing for yourself, always. So we have to make more inclusive in terms of who's actually doing the work who's designing that when we have to insist on it. And this even gets down to like at the state level. If we don't look at we're right now we are not incentivizing equity. We are not all of the laws that govern education do not incentivize equity, and systems get what they're designed for. And so we have to look at where are we incentivizing equitable outcomes, equitable environments, inclusive leadership. And if we don't change the incentives, we're not going to change the outcome.

Alexander Sarlin:

It is so incredibly interesting. I I love that you're looking ahead to the educational Metaverse, which is really just beginning now. And this pattern of as you call it, mechanized bias. That's that's happened for generations and all sorts of technology, including medical technology like your budgeting, and saying, let's get ahead of this in advance for the first time. And you know, what's interesting about the educational Metaverse is, not only is it going to be dominated if the patterns hold by white men, it's probably going to be dominated by about six white men. You know, it's going to be just us and Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk, sadly,

Unknown:

that real specific, right, yeah. A lot of folks who are not represented.

Alexander Sarlin:

Exactly, exactly. So I love this focus on starting to think about who's in the room developing who's in the room testing? Who is what are the assumptions that are just baked into what people, you know, look like what people do, what people where they can learn how the space is designed. I just think this is one of those looking ahead to the future around the corner moments that is so interesting. And we see a lot of starkly black colleges and universities, creating Metaverse, university campuses, this is actually just announced a couple of weeks ago. So people are trying at least on the surface to think about this. But I have a feeling that the pattern you're noting is still going to happen. And we should really, really be aware of it.

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

Yeah. And it really it really does. This is one of those times where it really does we really have to think about our systems, we really do we really have to think about what systems do we have in place? Where do we need to make changes? And this is one of those times where we must think about being fully inclusive and prioritize those who are most likely to be marginalized?

Alexander Sarlin:

Yes, you know, it's such a sort of, I'll use the word again, reframing, you know, to just sort of not even to look at marginalized populations, or people with different perspectives, and just say, there's so many different perspectives, we're all going to lose out. If we bake in the biases of the designers. You know, nobody wins that way.

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

Nobody wins. That's exactly it. Nobody wins.

Alexander Sarlin:

So I think it's a really amazing way to look at it. I have one more question to you. This is so interesting. One more question for you. Obviously, hearing you talk about all of these, these incredible ideas, is really inspiring. And I think one of the real ironies of education in especially for professional development is that teachers are famous for being bad students, they're disruptive, they don't want to listen, they're get on their phones, I've had this experience, I'm sure you've had this experience a lot. People who teach teachers, so professional development, professionals often really have their work cut out for them trying to present to teachers and keep them engaged. This is nothing bad about teachers, it's just they're so used to classroom environments, they have very high standards. So your book, supercharge your professional learning, which is about 40 concrete strategies to improve adult learning is really designed for professional development professionals and those who educate educators, you can sort of our listeners can get a taste of the type of energy, the metaphors the way you sort of frame ideas from this conversation, but give us a little bit of a taste of some of the core principles that you cover in the book, some of a couple of the strategies, and how professional development can be as useful as engaging as memorable as refueling, as you put it possible.

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

Yes. Well, the the core ideas really are, we use again, I love metaphors. So we ended up metaphors upon metaphors, metaphors in this book, but really, the whole book is around a health and wellness metaphor, right. So it's this idea, again, of professional learning is refueling as recharging as energizing. And when we look at that, so like Each chapter has a different take on health and wellness. And we start with, you know, removing resistance to change through like, almost like a PD detox. And it's like, get some of those questions out of the in the air. And often what happens with professional learning is one of the reasons why teachers may be difficult students is it may be slightly harder to create what is often called a curiosity gap, where you're saying, Ooh, I don't know that it would be beneficial for me to know that. So now I am seeking to understand that. And the great thing about adult learners is that they have a lot of background knowledge. The tricky thing about adult learners is that they have a lot of background knowledge, right? So you have to convince them that they don't already know everything, right? You have to get some of those questions out in the open. You also have to make it clear about how does this connect to their work and ultimately, they have to seek information from the space. Now we model this type of activity on the Jumpstart PD network. So jumpstart pd.com the network I started this in 2020 because the book came out supercharged professional learning came out in February of 2020. All about professional development. We didn't know the world was going to just shut down right After that, but it was very inconvenient for the book, but I had a head start, I knew that I wasn't going to be able to travel January. So our team started creating jumpstart pd.com. So that I could stay connected to folks and still be modeling things in the book, even with technology. And so when we launched it in June, we were already ahead of the game, because by then everybody was like, okay, even if we do get back in person, we can bring 1000 people together in the same pace, you know. So, literally, that's when stuff started to come. But we model some of these, how you put this into practice with technology, or even in person. The other thing is we talk about is having like a clear and balanced diet, for professional learning, oftentimes, we default to lecture because we think it's the most efficient and most effective. And actually half of what you said, actually more like 70%, of what you said, did not get absorbed. So we have a way to help, we have a mnemonic that we use to help folks think about how to make sure that it's balanced. And then one other we have lots of metaphors. But one other thing I want to talk about with professional learning is we use this metaphor of reflection is the equivalent to stretching. So when you think about health and wellness and exercise, if you live long enough, you find how important it is for the warm up. And even especially the cooldown. Recovery is everything once you get over 40. And so the same thing was reflection, you have to build in opportunities, reflection, because that stretching helps us to expand our possibilities. And we're so quick to talk in chalk talk that we don't provide space to trust and learn from silence, and reflection, or collective learning and dialogue. And so how do you create this space where we can learn from one another and also just take time to listen to our own thoughts. And so we weave that in, and then we model it. But that's just a little bit about it. But our workshops tend to be very well received. And because I am on a personal mission, we offer like on jumpstart pd.com, we offer like starting we take August off. Starting in September. Again, we do like these free half an hour webinars. And we help people really put this work into practice because it is so important for us.

Alexander Sarlin:

That's fantastic. So just to synopsize some of these amazing techniques. How do you get the curiosity gap to open for teachers they bring that you how do you get them to not think they know everything, you have ideas for that about diet that isn't too much lecture where there's there's interactive learning, peer learning, all sorts of different kinds of learning I can imagine but not just talking. And then reflection makes space for that sort of meditative stretching, reflection, recovery. Fantastic. Those are three of 40 concrete strategies. Great Taste, I wish we had more time. But we always end the podcast with two questions. There's we've covered so much today. What is the most exciting trend that you see in the Ed Tech landscape right now that you think our listeners should keep an eye on?

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

Yeah, so my in this, I don't know if this is what you mean by trends, because it may not sound so much like a technology trend. But one of the things I'm so excited about is this, what I see is a willingness to examine what we think we know. And because of technology, we're actually able to have a lot more access to diverse perspectives, right, there's a lot more opportunity to connect with and hear from an engagement and dialogue with folks who are completely different have different backgrounds, different perspectives. And when I see folks engaging, what I see is folks that you have on the surface look like they have all the things in common, how much they don't have in common. And when you see folks who on the surface look very, very different from one another how much they really have in common. And it's been so exciting to see. And so that I think that willingness to examine what we think we know, and just be willing to listen and learn and connect, like be intentional about, I'm going to seek out spaces where I can learn from other folks, and not just do what we've always done. That's been the most exciting for me. And so like I see those connections and different groups, different podcasts absorb podcasts all the time. I think that's great. I am all over Instagram in terms of learning from folks on Instagram. And just I really seek out like who was showing me something that I had never thought about before. Right? So sometimes we get into this echo chamber learning to see a shift not I mean, obviously not everybody, but this willingness to I want to learn from someone that I wouldn't necessarily have been learning from before.

Alexander Sarlin:

It's a great trend and I mean, I think the lowering of the barrier to entry to sharing ideas which has happened more and more has contributed to that idea. You can see more different kinds of people more different kinds of ideas, more different perspectives than ever before and as I love how you put it you know people you might think you have a lot in common with you might really not at all and you actually might have a lot more in common with people that are in different countries from different backgrounds, from wildly different ages. I think that that is really exciting, possibly a positive aspect of social media.

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

Yeah. It's the idea of, can we be more curious than certain? Can we be more curious than certain? That's what's really empowering. Jimmy, I think

Alexander Sarlin:

you mentioned podcasts. And I want to make sure that you know, you are also a podcaster. I believe your podcast is called, what did we learn? Is that right?

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

It's called Did we learn anything?

Alexander Sarlin:

Did we learn anything? We'll put a link to that. And, you know, our very final question is, and we'll we'll put a link to the podcast in the show notes. I'm sure people want to hear more from you. What is one resource, and that can be a book. It could be a podcast, blog, Twitter feed that you would recommend for anyone who wants to dive deeper into any of the topics we discussed today.

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

Yeah. So my number one book that I would recommend that really helped me put all these pieces together. And it took put me on a little roller coaster where I had to put it down for a little bit because it was a little bit depressing me. But then when I got when I pushed through and got to the end, I was like, oh, that's Oh, hallelujah. It's the book cast with an E on the end. So CAS T E, but it's about work ocean. That to me, really helped me understand that we built this we can break in a good way. That coupled with if you're thinking about working with groups, I also recommend the book predictably irrational by Dan Ariely so good in terms of why humans behave in ways they do. And then I follow groups like decenter, the teacher on Instagram.

Alexander Sarlin:

That's really interesting. I've never heard of that. But I definitely want to look into that I have not read cast myself, but I've heard great things. I'm definitely going to look it up and predictably irrational is one of my favorites. Fantastic. So dissenter, the teacher cast by Isabel Wilkerson. And Dan Ariely is predictably irrational. We will link to all of those resources as well as the supercharge the podcast and all of the amazing projects that end lesson cast that Nicole Tucker Smith is involved in. Thank you so much. What a fascinating conversation. I feel like we've gotten to know each other so well, in this hour. I believe, you guys. I really appreciate it. I think our listeners are probably feel very refueled themselves. I really appreciate you being here with me on Ed Tech insiders.

Nicole Tucker-Smith:

Thank you so much, Alex, for having me.

Alexander Sarlin:

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