Episode 57: Why Clients Mask in Therapy (And Why It Matters)

In this episode, we unpack one of the most misunderstood dynamics in therapy: masking.We start with the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model and how somatic work helps clients notice real shifts in their nervous system. Then we get into what therapists often miss — clients who look “fine” in session but are shutting down outside the room.

We cover:

• Why clients mask in therapy (often without realizing it)
• How therapists can misread progress
• Dorsal vagal shutdown and what it actually looks like
• When a memory is too big for the client’s current capacity
• Why some people stay emotionally stuck for decades
• How blame can block real healing
• The link between underdeveloped identity and addiction risk
• Short-form content, attention and ADHD brains
• The pressure to appear regulated in everyday life

If you’re a therapist, helper or someone trying to understand why change can feel harder than it “should,” this episode will give you a much deeper lens.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:31

So I have been working on this training program called the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model through the Polyvagel Institute. And it has been very interesting. Very, very interesting. It's like a somatic-based therapy to understand one's stress responses and to develop like a what they call like a shift, a felt sense, a shift in your stress as you acknowledge what you're experiencing. So it's very meditative too. I really enjoy it. But at the end, um, it's just like another certification. So something to put on the resin the website. Uh it's like a new service I can offer.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Oh, did you finish your website?

SPEAKER_01 1:08

No, I'm still working on it. Um, I'm not doing it. I've decided to hire somebody.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Yeah. The stuff you showed me, was that something you had created, or that was no, uh, that was what my designer had come up with.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Nice. Yeah, so I'm having she's um helping me. Uh she's really very responsive and very um, like she truly wants to understand the business. That's good. Yeah, this is what she does full-time website design. So yeah, so far so good. Um, she's gonna do the actual website come February. So that's on my today's list is to do more of the prep work. She's really organized. Um, she provides like these Google Doc folders, and then each doc, each folder has like one specific document or concept that you have to work on. And so I'm just going through it. So, like she did my branding, and um, like, you know, one page was like all about like um like how do I want people to feel when they look at my brand? How do I want people, you know, what do I want to convey about myself through my brand? Then like the third page is, you know, what sort of um colors do I really like? What uh fonts do I really like? And then I had to create a Pinterest board of imagery of um like my style, like, you know, in terms of everything, like architecture, landscape, even animals and pets. Um you know, if I could, if I could pick my dream bedroom, you know, give her 10 pictures of what my dream bedroom, my dream office, my dream living room would look like. And so it's from that that she kind of gets a sense of who I am, and then she created, she works with a graphic designer to come up with the design. So we came up with this concept of a passport stamp because I like the like kind of the metaphor of like, you know, psychotherapy as being like traveling through time. Um, and so yeah, so this is a passport stamp with my name and it says EMDR therapy works on it, and then it has a B just to represent Melissa.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Yeah. Yeah, so I'm gonna use her again when I start my second business when I get into the coach, when I develop my coaching program. And then Mike started a business, so he's gonna use her for hopefully use her for that too. Yeah, which is pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

When are you starting the coaching?

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Sometime this year. I got two boys going into college, so I gotta do it quickly.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Yeah. Yeah, I did that over the summer, I think. And that pulled in like 11k just in six months. So that was cool.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

That was really cool.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Yeah, I just like it's also even if you're not just being a coach, but have like a therapy practice also, it's also it's very helpful when you stumble across someone that truly needs support, or especially like like family reunification and when they're in different states and stuff, where we're so constrained by a licensure. If there's no medical necessity, it's it's important that they have someone that's skilled. And the risk is if we as therapists don't also have like a coaching uh business too, they're gonna get they're gonna meet with someone that is just a coach that doesn't have uh like true quality training. Yeah, so it's like a coach we are immensely overqualified. Um I think it's great. I think it's important. Um and some people get butthurt because you're like bypassing these like different regulatory bodies and all this, and I'm like all right, well, you know what? Keep taking your Aetna and we're seeing 40 people a week, and I'll do my own thing. Thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

You want to work with the system, like you go for it, bro.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Yeah, oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Let me know how that works out for you.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

It's horrible. I've had to like refer people to um like specialists, because I don't specialize, for example, in OCD. Like, no, you can use EMDR to treat OCD, but unfortunately, people have this idea that exposure therapy is like the gold standard, which is kind of silly, but okay, whatever. And um, so I've reached out to people's insurance companies to try to get them to see specialists, and they're like, no, you know, they can just go to any, just any, you know, therapist, or you can keep seeing them. And I'm like, no, I mean, they need someone who's completely who's seen this presentation time and time again and can give them a clear treatment plan.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

And uh yeah, so it's very frustrating.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Yeah, I met uh with someone last month, a guest for the podcast, um, that specializes in neurodivergence, which was good for me because it's easy for me to write off all that based on the social media buzzwords. But it was interesting to hear um her take and perspective on how you have to adjust the way in which you treat someone who has like legitimate ADHD or like obviously like a autism or or something like that. And it just also uh reaffirmed that I have ADHD. I was like, so you know, I thought I s I thought I maybe worked through all that, and then I was listening like, no, I've just adapted. It's still right there. Because she used some some interesting term like um there's three, I can't remember what the third uh is, but it's one is um masking and then one's adapting. So it's about the transformation of someone with you know, say ADHD throughout childhood, adolescence, and then into adulthood. Like some people can hide it and mask it, some people learn how to make it a superpower. And then I guess the other one is like some they're they're debilitated by it, they're not functioning.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Yeah, I could see that. Yeah, I had a client use that phrase masking in session too, and but she was using it more to describe um like hiding her true feelings to present as though she's cheerful.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

So I thought that was a that was a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

She came she like they uh came up with that, or did you reflect that and then they they noticed it?

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Uh it was a process to get her to use that word because um like in session she would present like she's coping really, really well. And so, but then she came back the next time we were starting to process a memory and we didn't finish it. We were still in the processing phase and it was technically an incomplete session. And so she came back the next session and just said how she sat on the couch for a really long period of time in this dorsal vagal shutdown state. And so I was a little surprised to her for her to say that because she's never described ever experiencing that. And so finally, you know, I pointed that out like the incongruence of um, you know, I've been working with her for a couple of years now, and this is the first time she's ever described that. But what she was saying in session sounded like this happens somewhat frequently. And so um, yeah, she finally goes, Well, when I come in here, I really mask. And I was like, Well, we need to stop doing that. I don't think I said it like that, but I was like, no, I mean, this is the place to describe, you know, what's really going on so that we can get feedback. Because like I need to know what's happening in between sessions to inform where we go next with the protocol. So that her being transparent about what she'd experienced with that dorsal vagal shutdowns phase really informed me, okay, this memory is too big. We need to go deeper in time to maybe a quote unquote smaller memory with a younger self because the memory we've been working on doesn't have the the the ego strength, if you will, creating like a flooding. Yeah, I mean, flooding, I mean, no, because she wasn't getting flooded in session because she was really staying within her window of tolerance, but it's when she leaves and then reflects later.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Um, that's when she's flooding, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:29

I guess I mean I guess maybe she's kind of leaving, she's going into a dorsal vagal shutdown stage. So it's kind of like I told her, like, you know, there's no thing as mistakes, it's always just feedback. So any feedback you can give me helps me pivot as to what you're experiencing. But you know, there's nothing wrong with a dorsal vagal shutdown stage. I mean, it's just feedback, it's information. And so I was like, you can do one of two things. You can either let it ride until you naturally come out of it, or you know, you can actively work your way out of it if sitting on the couch for a long period of time is inconvenient. You know, clearly we don't, not all of us can afford to do that. And there are ways to get out of those, um, you know, to find safety to come back into a ventral vagal state.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

So she has a PR manager present in session. You're thinking about masking.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Yes. Very good. So that's that's become adaptive somehow.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Oh, yeah. I mean, as a woman in the world, yeah. I mean, as an American woman, that's expected. You can't just walk around without your PR mask on, especially like if you have a mom and you have a child in public school, for example. Yeah, you're expected to be, you know, pleasant and socially engaging. And so, yeah, so it's performative. But it's very interesting because my practicum supervisor back when I was in graduate school warned me of that. She said, Melissa, you have to be very careful because people will present as though because they want you to light them.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

They will present as though Yeah, we actually talked about last time we met. Yeah. Ironically.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

And so I those words, like, I don't know if this has ever happened to you, but like you'll hear something and there's a part of you that just knows what the person's saying is deeply true, almost prophetic. And I've held on to that for 20 years.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Yeah. Yeah, I wonder what that's about. Like what do you show or display that invites someone in to perform or to like seek approval?

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Oh, I've told people have told me it's I present as though I'm very calm and I have everything together.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Yeah, I probably have a similar display.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

You don't? Is that what you said?

SPEAKER_00 11:55

No, I said I probably have a similar display.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

You and I had, but I had to do that though, because my mother was completely dysregulated as a kid. And somebody had to be the you know, the adult in the room, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

No, I was in a I was in a meeting last night, and this guy said if I can no no longer resent my mother, then who do I have to blame? Yeah. I was like, ooh. Like, damn, alright. I was like not really paying attention. I just heard that. I was like, oh shit.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Because it's so easy for like a like, you know, I I it's a constant thing I work through with resentments of formative figures, but it's so it can so easily be really one of the main point constructs of identity is like a resentment towards someone. It is a inform every part of your narrative and like every part, it's it can be like the entire lifespan. And it's not it's not for me anymore, but it's still part of it, and it can be, right? It's like that stuff can become activated.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Repeat what he said again.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

If if I can no longer resent my mother, then who do I have to blame?

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Yes. And that I think can also point to why sometimes people don't make progress in psychotherapy, right? Because if we keep working on one's relationship with whatever parental figure, you know, or person in their life, ex-husband, the yeah, then the there's like a deep well of grief and shame that might come, whether it's rational or not, I don't know. But um yeah, that somebody doesn't that they haven't spent the time working on themselves. Yeah, I mean, I you know, I work with people of all ages, and um a lot of people are still processing divorces that have happened years ago.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

And, you know, if that gets resolved where I don't have my ex-husband to blame anymore, for example, then it's like I have to acknowledge I didn't take responsibility for something, possibly.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Yeah, like uh responsibility for potentially contributing to the dysfunction or responsibility for the healing.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Yeah. Yeah, and and moving on with your life in whatever way that looks for you.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Letting go.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Yeah. Because like as Marshall Linehan said, you know, um, we have to we all want to seek a life that's well lived. I'm paraphrasing here. And, you know, that looks different for everybody. But if somebody's life well lived is rooted in blaming and blaming and blaming somebody, I would imagine that when that blame is finally put down, there's gonna be grief that they've they maybe misuse their time.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

It's terrifying. We've all we've all met someone who's older that has lived their entire life that way, where they're just angry and bitter and resentful and and consistently victimize themselves. And when they interact with family, it's just utter chaos, and it just creates this spiral within the entire system. It's so exhausting and terrifying to envision like an entire life being led that way.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Yeah, I mean, that reminds me of so many people we met when we worked at the substance use treatment center.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Yeah, who like got I mean, you would think that way they were talking that the the divorce or the you know the break in the relationship or whatever it was just happened like three days ago. But then you come to find out listening to their story, this is something that really happened 35, 40, 50 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

And it's still impacting every decision they make in the day-to-day.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

And it I think if we're if we're holding on to like a failed relationship for decades, it's gotta be beyond that relationship. Like there's gotta be, I think it's it's it's the same in in either extreme, right? Where it's if I'm dating someone for a month and then I'm having to heal for five years. Or if I was married for a number of years and then divorced for 40, and I'm still like completely activated by that and always talking about it with my children. Like those two extremes speak to there's something at within me, like my attachment, like how is this informing about my own identity or worth? It's not about the person. It can't be at that point.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

No, at that point it's not. It's all a deflection, absolutely. But this reminds me of that uh social no, it's not social media, um, that news story about that poor woman and her dentist husband uh in Ohio who were murdered by her ex-husband recently. What up? I did not know that. This woman, she was in, I think she and her husband are in their late 30s, and they've only been married less than five years, and they were both shot and killed. This is very recently, by the woman's ex-husband. And she divorced that man almost eight years ago. Maybe even, and like they were only married for like maybe a handful of months, like six, seven months before she called it quit. And so the divorce, they had no children, no assets, nothing. I mean, it was like you know, on paper, it looked like a clean break. But from what I was reading, this poor woman received like harassing messages all throughout the years from the ex-husband. And this ex-husband is um very well accomplished in his own right. He's a vascular surgeon, but he just couldn't let go.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Yeah, that was a severe attachment rupture for him.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Oh my god, and then engaged in, yeah, femicide. It's horrible. And killed the husband too, the new husband.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

I would be so fucking pissed if like I'm just living my life happy with some some woman, and then I look up and her fucking I just see a gun and it's held by her ex-husband. Like that moment right before I die, I would be so pissed. I was like, really? This is how I die.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

I would be so pissed too. Like, I think this but thankfully the the the murderer, you know, did spared her two children, but like by you know, all outward appearances, this woman and her new husband and their two little kids, I mean, they're just a nice little family just living their lives.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Yeah, and it's it's irreparable damage to those two children. And then if they have kids, there's gonna be these gaps in attachment. Almost certain, almost certainly, right? It'd be really hard to avoid that. So there's there's this intergenerational trauma from that event, too, that's gonna happen for at least three cycles.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

I'm glad I'm talking about this with you because this has been kind of plaguing me. Yeah. So from what I read, the murderer was adopted as a child.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

And had, again, by all outward appearances, very decent upbringing, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Well, I said he had a severe, I said it it sounds like he had a severe attachment rupture. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

There you go, right? And then um, yeah, so then he grows up, he becomes a vascular surgeon. He don't just become a vascular surgeon overnight, so he clearly dedicated himself to that pursuit. And then I guess her leaving him was another severe attachment rupture.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

But then Well, the pursuit of being a vascular surgeon may have been an echo of that rupture to begin with. Like the just being overzealous or trying to achieve something very difficult to oh, to be good enough. To speak to some worthiness element, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Well, there's also a high correlation of psychopathy with surgeons.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

So what is psychothy?

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Psychopathy, yeah. Psycho psychological pathology, psychopathy.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Yeah, with surgeons. So um being a psychopath.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Yeah. Yeah, don't they listen to like uh metal during brain surgery?

SPEAKER_01 20:14

I'm sure they listen to all kinds of music. But um, yeah, so that's interesting. But then I also read that the same murderer had uh he became estranged from his adoptive parents, like by his choice. And and um I guess one article was just expressing there didn't seem to be a rationale for that.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Severing relationship.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Yeah. Yeah, very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

And it's it's unfortunate that we don't have social systems that are able to keep eyes on people like that.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Well, it goes back to masking, right? Because like I mean, you know, he the social system, like doctors are really good at policing their own. So in his you know, internship, his fellowship, if he had one, um, you would think that he would have been weeded out if he was demonstrating some sort of maladaptive thought processes or in you know, poor interrelational skills.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Um so you would think it may have not shown too, because his his attachments may have not spiraled unless it was romantic. So he may not have been that way with his professors or his colleagues.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Yeah, that's possible too.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

I mean, sometimes it's it's like very pointed, where they're like pretty adaptive in most spaces, but then these like one or two, they're fucking crazy.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah, obviously, yeah, he's using his um I guess perhaps using these relationships to meet his attachment needs, the romantic relationship.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

That's so sad.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

But he's alive, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

The murderer, yeah. Oh yeah, he's fine. Going to prison.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

I didn't know if he got shot or something.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Oh no. You would think he would yeah, you would think that would be it, but no. I think the dipshit thought he was actually gonna get away with it.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

You're the first suspect, so good luck.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

You sent eight years of horrible messages.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Yeah, right. I'm gonna kill both of you. I didn't do anything.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Yeah, that's the other part of when when you watch some kind of murder doc. It's it's like, oh, why would you do that? Why would you do that? Why would you do that? Well, we're missing an important element here, which is they're not in a sound mind.

unknown 22:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Like if they're doing that, they're not in a sound mind. Like as I'm sitting there watching it, I'm in a decently sound mind. Problem is when you actually go through with stuff like that, you're not thinking straight.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

No, I don't even mean you know what though, if he was kind of psycho like a psychopath, he probably was thinking with a very calculated comp to some degree.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Yeah, but then that specific yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Yeah. But I you know, nowadays, though, with the depth and breadth of forensics, why does anybody think that they can get away with shit? That's just yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Rule number one is you have to rule number one is you have to kill someone you don't know. So that completely exempts me from ever wanting to do it.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

I I'm just not smart enough. I don't have the drive, the follow-through, the interests.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Not committed enough. I don't have enough commitment.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

We're both too good looking for prison, Evan, so we can't.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

I will say, I can attest, like going from just walking around in the world to being cuffed and put in a space you can't leave unless they let you is um man, that's an experience you cannot have in any other way. I guess outside of being kidnapped or something.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Yeah, I don't want to ever have that experience.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Like it's like you you, you know, maybe you're around a friend or a family member in a courtroom, and then once you pass that barrier, like from the courtroom past the door into the the jail housing or something, it's like a completely different world where no one there gives a shit about you. You are an animal. Period. You can ask them for something, no, it could be a toothbrush, yeah. But it's it's uh a complete 180.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

I think one of the saddest things I saw when I worked at the jail is watching somebody make that mental shift from free person to inmate. Yeah, it's how quickly it happens. Like yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

It is like shocking.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Yeah, the yeah, that the transformation was apparent to me very quickly.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

And it's weird because it like it's not something that can really be experienced unless that happens. So there's no way to really know exactly how that feels. You can think that'd be terrifying, but like if you were actually experiencing it, how intense that would be.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Yeah, that would be horrific.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Well, um I don't know where to go.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Yeah. Talking about being murdering and being jailed.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

I don't know. I just like, what the fuck is the point? But you know, that's just kind of my rational brain talking.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Like, I just Well, they got they have a rage, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Yeah, exactly. But you know, we've all had rage.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

So how does it get to that?

SPEAKER_01 26:19

How does it get to that point? Because this man, this murderer, I mean, he didn't just like wake up one morning and then drive, you know, 15 minutes. He had to complete this, like hit the plan was well, not wasn't well executed, obviously, not pun intended, but he um had to drive like 11 hours. You know, that would be like enough time to like calm down and start thinking rationally, in my mind at least.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Well, that's like the magic, what's his name? Mangioni, magioni guy who oh Luigi, yeah. He like is suspected to have killed the insurance CEO. So it's you know, it's United Healthcare. You and I have talked a lot of shit about them, especially when we were in treatment and just like how criminal they were and how they would not provide care to people that obviously needed it. They were one of the worst ones, they like wouldn't reimburse for stuff. And I probably knew more about that than you did when I was the director, but you know there wasn't ever even a moment where I started to strategize how to murder the CEO of United Healthcare.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Much less like 3D print a gun and then drive there and all that, right? It's like, man, there is something going on that's different in that brain.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Yeah, I mean I don't know, I just I think I think this makes me think about addiction. And I was working with this uh client yesterday, and I think we were talking about her addiction, and I think what was illuminated was that this client didn't have like um a robust life, like there wasn't anything else going on in life, like not well-developed hobbies, not a well-developed sense of self, um, not a good note network of friends. And so then that kind of makes me think, well, these people who like conspire and then murder people, they don't have like it makes me wonder like, do they have a well-balanced life?

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Like, is there something so there's not a lot of other exits thinking if if I'm driving to go do this really crazy thing, there's not these other displays of relationship and connection.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

It's like we're in Texas trying to drive all the way to I don't know, what's the state left of Texas, New Mexico?

SPEAKER_01 28:52

New Mexico, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that would take 10 or 11 hours. And yeah, there's nowhere to stop. No one's stopping. But dust and cattle and uh tumbleweeds. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You would think that there would be like like you calm down and be like, okay, this was irrational. I'm gonna turn around now.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Yeah, it's zero regulation skills.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, and then yeah, I keep going back to the question, like, to what end? Like, what what did you prove? You murdered your ex-wife, okay, and her husband, and you've left these two little kids without parents. What did you prove? Like, what are you gonna gain?

SPEAKER_00 29:37

I guess it's like he's thinking, I've been able to take away something that you had that you took from me.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Mm-hmm. I mean, but the joke is on I'm what maybe wondering if he's like actually trying to hurt the children. Because the joke's on him, right? Because if she's dead, she's dead. Yeah. She's not suffering. So I wonder if then if he was actually targeting the children passively, indirectly.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Or maybe it's it's like I win. Like a very childish like, oh, we're playing chess, I'm just gonna hit all the chess pieces on the floor and walk away. I win.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Yeah.

unknown 30:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

That's what it sounds like.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Yeah, like because that that would make sense if there's an early attachment rupture. Like in those moments of complete insanity, he's time traveled in a way back to that mode of thinking. He took his ball and went home. Just in a very adult permanent way.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Yeah. Oh, that's just sad. What stories are you following in the news, if any?

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Oh man, I'm I'm even more under a rock than I was. Like I s I have uh the last week or so, um, not that I was I wasn't like on on reels doom scrolling five hours a day or anything, but you know, there would be moments throughout the day where I would notice that I'd pick up my phone and just like scroll through shit and very mindlessly. And this last week I've made a an intentional effort and been pretty successful, just completely removing that. Because I'm like we do we talk about a lot of ways to like improve our functioning and like our level of meaning, purpose, and happiness. But I'm like, what is something on a very like granular level that matters really like a lot? I'm thinking, it's mood, it's my mood, right? Like we can get very like complex with all sorts of stuff, but generally speaking, like our mood in the now is is one of the most important things that we have. And so I'm like, well, what do I what can I mitigate that's like obviously just taking away from my ability to have like a higher average in my my mood? And I think one of them is just like this this draw to being overly sensitized. Oh, sensitized to like social media and just stimuli, just like just this consumption of the brain of like all these lights and movements. And yeah, like this has gotta, you know, if if I want to operate at like a six out of ten mood, like a little bit above more, like you know, I don't want to be low or really high, but right there, and then I'm like doing all this like stimuli consumption, my brain can't stay at the six, it just kind of swings down, and then I need that to put it back to the six. So I'm you I end up having to like use something like that, or else there's this um disparity, almost like a a withdrawal.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Okay, and so what are you using? You're going out of town a lot for rock climbing and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Yeah, I went to Chattanooga last weekend. Yeah, that was fun. I just I mean, I it's not that I'm not watching stuff, but it's more longer form.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

So okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

No, it's not like I'm like, no TV, but it's it is very different because I can tell you what I watched. Like, like if I if I just like go through a bunch of reels, I couldn't tell you what I fucking watched. It could be like 30 minutes. No idea. I couldn't tell you, I might be able to tell you like one that I remember.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

I think you know you just gotta change your algorithm. I mean, not that okay, but I I agree with you. So you know, short form content is not good for the brain, especially if you have ADHD.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Well, here we are.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Yeah. But like I have been finding um a lot of therapists who are very informative. I've been following a lot a lot of um marriage and family therapists, and uh that's been very helpful in understanding like the work that they do to illuminate people's attachment style and then their expectations of relationships and then their roles and responsibilities and really countering that enmeshment that often happens between couples. That's been very interesting. So, like my save folder is huge now. Yeah, I think I want to go back to.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

I will still um sometimes get into I mean it's only been the last week, but like there's there's some like painters I follow that is like directly inspiring to me. Um so yeah, I mean, obviously it depends on what it is and what my level of focus is, but I think probably the ADHD part of me it makes it even harder to retain. It's just kind of like feeding this stimulated side of me.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

So yeah, it's like trying to focus on like what are what are very granular things that I have in my control that like I can do to improve my mood on a consistent basis. Because I I I I have very much like there's a lot of stuff there's I don't have any power over, but I definitely have power over that by and large.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Yeah. Oh yeah, so I'm I'm trying to do something similar, but just by taking more days off, more breaks.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Um yeah, you know how I feel about that.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

You know, being uh I got so many projects that I really need to attend to.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

I gotta get you to stop working on Fridays.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

You know, I like Fridays, but I don't like working on Mondays typically. But my schedule, unfortunately, this year has been dictated by my daughter's dance schedule. She is in competitive dance and she is practices like 12 hours now a week.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

That's fucking crazy.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

That's crazy for a 10-year-old.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

That is insane. Why? For what?

SPEAKER_01 36:13

I know. She's really good now. I mean, she's really good.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

Yeah, man, 12 hours.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

What is so that's I mean, some if it's it's just during the week?

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Uh, and then some weekends, so then it becomes like 15 to 16 hours a week.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

So it's two two and a half hours a day?

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Uh no, so some nights it's four hours.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Four hours? Okay, hold on. What is she doing for four hours?

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Oh my god, let me tell you. Let me stand by. Stand by.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Oh, there's a schedule.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Oh, yeah, I got a folder. Okay. So today is our listeners definitely want to hear this. Today is the okay, yeah. So tomorrow will be three and a half hours. And so she's doing okay, wait, today is three hours. So she's on the production team. So they're doing a dance routine um called I don't know why it's called production, but it's like a mixture of like jazz and tap. And then I think that she's doing that for two hours, and then she goes to ballet for an hour. And then tomorrow she's on another team called or another like um routine called the junior company line, and she does that for 30 minutes, and then she does production again for like another hour, and then more ballet, and then she finishes tomorrow at 8:30. So tomorrow is three and a half hours, and then Thursday is two and a half hours, which is, I guess, better. Um, she has like a seminar with a choreographer, choreographer.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Well, this is why you got to get your coaching practice running. I don't even know if it's the kids in college. This is this is probably more than college.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Yeah, she has a seminar with a choreographer, tap, and then she takes a class called leaps and turns, which is really fun because we were at this restaurant with my aunt, and there she is going like up and down the around the tables, just doing her leaps and turns. And then on Saturday, I think that's like two and a half hours more of like the same sort of like routine. She's doing different she's got like four routines she's learning, and she has acrobatics. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Lots of driving. And then you have to probably sit there, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Well, luckily it's near my office, so I just go back to my office. And so I'll see clients in the evening times now.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

That's yeah, that's very nice.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

And then I also, it's in the same parking lot as my gym, so I'll see clients go to the gym and then pick her up.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Oh, that's great. Yeah, she would probably have to just sit there.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Yeah, there's no way on Goss Green Earth I could do that for three and a half, four hours.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Yeah, that's absurd.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Yeah. So I think the long-term goal is uh she wants to join. We're trying to think, like maybe she'll start specializing in ballet, so maybe she'll start to move to more of a ballet exclusive company, or um just do more like competition um through this studio.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Yeah, it sounds like she's doing a lot of it's like a collective approach still, but she's probably around the age where she might want to specialize. Yeah. Because I yeah, I think that's that's how they do it with the dancing, especially, is they'll give you like four or five different practices initially.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

Yeah, she's um not gonna obviously be a professional, it's maybe an obvious, but she's not gonna be a professional dancer. We've told her that we're not paying for a dance degree. So she's all like 10, no idea what we're saying when we say that anyway.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

But um getting it in early.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Yeah, it's like you've got to have a career, girl. You cannot, you're not gonna be a dancer on a cruise ship.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Um correct. Yeah, that's where that, that's where that leads, usually, the cruise ship.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's you know, we always have dreams about going on to Broadway or something like that, but I don't, you know, we gotta we gotta be realistic, we've gotta have real skills.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

I kind of want to go on a cruise soon. Just eat a bunch of soft serve, lay around, be real, be real American.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Yeah, my girlfriend and I are planning a trip to Europe on a cruise ship for next summer.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Dang, that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

I think that's gonna be a lot of.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Yeah, my sister, they did they flew into Europe and then did one through some, it was almost like a part of it was like a fucking river. I don't it was a legit cruise ship going through canals, I guess, of what they would be.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Oh, yeah, yeah. Viking has cruise ships, cruise lines, Viking. Yeah, that's one option too. They're the Vik the river ones aren't that very expensive, not as expensive. Um, but what's nice about Viking, and I promise I don't get any kickbacks from them, is uh they included in the price is all your food and your excursions. Yeah, so other cruise lines will kind of nickel and dime you along with it.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

So just just you going?

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Me and my friend, yeah, from college.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

Nice. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Yeah, Mike is um doesn't like to he travels for work, so he doesn't like to travel for a living. I mean for fun.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

For fun.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

Yeah. Yeah. Plus he hates cruise ships. He thinks they're floating petri dishes.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Well, they are, but you know, sometimes you just gotta live in it.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Yeah, he's got all these rules about traveling. It's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Really? Well, glad you're going instead.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Yeah, it's gonna be fun. It'll be fun.