14. Building Product at StashAway, Building Transferable Skills, Being a “Cockroach”, Career Optionalities, Frameworks for Career Switch and Hiring with Yaohong Ch’ng

Yaohong Ch’ng is the Head of Data and Engineering at January Capital, a venture capital (VC) firm based in Singapore. He is responsible for building data-driven solutions that will complement January Capital’s investment process. Before that, he was the Head of Data at StashAway, a digital wealth manager that has assets of more than USD $1 billion under management. As employee #2, he helped build the company’s flagship product since day one as team lead and later on, as an engineering manager.

In this episode, you will learn how Yaohong transitioned his career from $700 / month to joining a VC, why having transferable skills and being a “cockroach” is important and why you should look at yourself internally first when considering career switch.

This podcast episode was recorded in Sep 2022. Subscribe to email newsletter for bonus content.

Timestamps:
(00:00) Intro
(11:45) Robo-Advisor
(18:23) Risk of joining early stage startup
(21:02) Why skills are important
(23:43) Switching from finance to tech
(41:14) Building transferable skills
(45:26) Advice for career switch
(49:23) Career optionalities
(58:34) Framework for hiring
(01:09:00) What does success look like

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Chapters

• 11:45 Robo-Advisor
• 18:23 Risk of joining early stage startup
• 21:02 Why skills are important
• 23:43 Switching from finance to tech
• 41:14 Building transferable skills
• 45:26 Advice for career switch
• 49:23 Career optionalities
• 58:34 Framework for hiring
• 1:09:00 What does success look like

Transcript

John Lim: 0:32

Allow me to introduce our guest today. He is currently the head of data and engineering at January capital of venture capital firm Business Singapore. he's responsible for building data driven solutions that will complement January Capital's investment process. Before joining January Capital, he was the head of data at Statu, a digital wealth manager that has assets of more than us$1 billion under management as employee number. He helped build the company's flagship productions, day one as Team Lead, and later on as an engineering manager. He was instrumental in shaping the code and culture of the team, doing hiss almost six year tenure at Stash Away and before Stash away. Our guest was also a self-taught developer, has been involved in several tech startups at different growth stages where he wore many hat, and prior to that he was in the finance equities. Executing traits for institutional and corporate clients when he was at Phillip Securities. And then moving on to be a day trader. Our guest graduated from Singapore Management University with a Bachelor's in business management, majoring in Finance and information systems, which I can tell you is not a very common combination back in 2005 to 2009. And he managed all this, uh, alongside being a freelance photo. Taking corporate shoots for clients, including BNCs. Our guests and I are fellow anonymous at Singapore Management University and we also serve our Singapore National Service and Reservers at the same Army unit. Welcome, and thank you for joining us, your home.

Yao Hong: 2:04

Hi John. Thanks for having me on board today. Right, miss uh, have a. Yep. I look

John Lim: 2:09

forward to that. So you are very interesting. Uh, you have a very interesting career path, uh, rather unconventional. and, uh, before I start talking about your career path, uh, do you have any interesting or funny story about yourself? You wanna share the audience?

Yao Hong: 2:24

Yeah, I mean, maybe along the lines of, uh, interesting or unconventional. last week I caught covid, right? And then unfortunately I lost my sense of. and then, uh, just recording this. just found it so weird, you know, so I, I basically couldn't even taste anything, right? And I, and I very acute sense of, uh, spirit and taste, you know, drink wine, I can taste all the layers, right? And then suddenly anything unable to taste anything. It was just weird. So we, we tried a few things. We did, uh, x spicy notice, we did four different, uh, you know, like experi, right? We did four different sauce, right? I close my eyes, I put fries. I had no idea what I was eating next day. I couldn't taste anything, thought having covid, but he was just trying up. So I was taking a shower and then suddenly the shower like, Hey, what about So taste soap, Very terrible. You were so bitter, right? And that my whole mouth was just stupid, like, Ah, this like bitter taste and so right. Try to wash it all out and then it goes like, ah,

John Lim: 3:35

so you could taste, soap,

Yao Hong: 3:36

could taste bitter. Okay. So I could taste bitter and salt and little bit of spice. That's all. But you know, you can't tell taste all the different flavors in.

John Lim: 3:46

And how about smell? Like do you do No,

Yao Hong: 3:51

my,

John Lim: 3:53

oh no. So do you know if, how long is it this gonna.

Yao Hong: 3:56

No, I think it, it is very, again, this have work actually. Okay. Well, goodness, but not as shock as before, but hopefully it'll only, yeah. So talking about unconventional experimental Right. A very experimental kind

John Lim: 4:09

of thing. Yeah. from, from the people that I know who got covid. I think there are, there are not many that I heard of that lost a sense of taste and smell. I think those who did that were in the early days. Yeah. And I think of the later, the latest variants, I don't think people have, uh, have gone into the extent. Yeah. So yeah.

Yao Hong: 4:26

Variant might be some variant or something. Oh, no. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Now everything is done in order. Right. So, yeah. I'm glad to

John Lim: 4:36

hear that. So, yeah. I am personally, um, very curious about certain career moves that you have made. to start off, like maybe you can tell us about your role at the venture capital firm that you're doing. What does the company do and, uh, what do you do? What's your role at the company?

Yao Hong: 4:51

Okay. I just joined actually three weeks ago. Very, very new to the firm. Right. And January capital is actually, uh, leading. Venture cap firm that invests in technology businesses, there will power growth in the AsiaPac region over the next coming decades. Right. So the firm very focused a lot on partnering with individuals who dedicate themselves to solve some of the biggest challenges, uh, in terms of our building and doing companies. So, so Jack has about f more than 15 portfolio companies, right? Including Aku, Indonesia, shop, e-Commerce cargo schedule. Right. And, and many others. Right. So, so JCap is actually based in Singapore and it manages more than, uh, 225 million in them. And, and my role is as a head of, uh, data engineering is actually interesting because, uh, VC firms technically do not have such a role and, we are building some internal products to help with the investment disease, right? As well as, uh, using Tapp, my expertise as an RX operator, the intern are looking at. So, so far in my last couple of weeks, I think I've been building up our internal tools, right? At least foundations of it. And then I've also been talking to, you know, several startups already, right along with our investor and from to, to add on as, as additional, uh, technological, uh, you know, perspective to, to some of these invest. Yeah. So,

John Lim: 6:14

and, and to the Orleans out there who may not be so familiar with the tech or, or the vc, uh, which, which stands for venture capital, can you tell us, uh, give us a slight primer about like this VC kind of scene? Uh, maybe I'll start with this, right. Um, there is different stages that, uh, different VCs invest in. Um, I think that that could be a good start. And at which stage of the investing stage does, uh, JCAP January Capital invest in?

Yao Hong: 6:39

So Jcap invests in, uh, very. Right. so like pre C series, a kind of round. So it's uh, in time at a point in time actually for a lot of companies, they are just looking at product market fit, right? And it's a lot about the founders. you know, how well they know the problem space, what have they done before, how can they go a team, right? And, and it's, uh, very interesting at this point, uh, where, you know, anything. Yeah. Well, of course, uh, the risk is also highest. Right? That's, that's where most things, uh, work in a sense. Yeah.

John Lim: 7:15

Yeah. Um, and I think for, for those in the audience who are a bit more savvy with the tech and finance news, I think, uh, as we are recording this conversation in, in September, 2022, a lot of, uh, tech. uh, valuations have come down, uh, especially with startups, uh, in recent months. And, um, how, how's that going? How, how's that, does that reflect in, in what gen, uh, January Capital does? What's it current sentiment?

Yao Hong: 7:40

No, I mean, so far I think it's still as usual from what I see, right? We haven't been here for long, but from what I see, still talking to investors, uh, she talking to companies to invest, right. Talking to investors to get more money and, and well, maybe compared to before, it could be pc I, I don't have a reference. true. But by, but from from the street, you know, someone from a startup industry. Yeah. I think sentiments are definitely not, not as rosy as it was like last year or year before last year,

John Lim: 8:09

but it could also be a good time for visas to go in and be a shark rag and get very good attractive evaluations.

Yao Hong: 8:15

Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or rather you want to find, spend more effort to find better use, right? Yeah. So just buying, throwing money around. Yeah. Any,

John Lim: 8:23

uh, sector, uh, or it sector. for

Yao Hong: 8:28

more on like, uh, the peak and travel, uh, is right. Disease driven. So things like, um, local, local movement, right, or, or building the foundations of, uh, commerce, for example, in, in the space. Yeah. so that that's the focus on the

[Raw] Yao hong Sep 2022 Part 1: 8:43

company.

John Lim: 8:44

Got it. Yeah. Yeah. When we caught up for lunch a few weeks back, uh, when you told me about your, your move, I was also very surprised and of course very happy for you. Uh, surprised because, uh, such a role that you have, it's not very common, uh, in this scene. So I think it's combining your past experiences at Stash away doing data and tech, and then going to the VC world, investing world to build some kind of, uh, just so that, so that the, the VC model, the VC investing model at January Capital is a bit more backed by certain set of fundamentals, right? Yeah. Um, so well con congrats on the move and I'm, next question and, and I, it's about your time at Statu Way, right? I think it's not a short time, it's coming to six years. Your tenure at Statu Way and you employ number two. And I personally have money, right? I put in money in Statu way. I would. the, one of the very first factors of knowing STK was true. You, I think you announced on LinkedIn that you joined stk. I was say, huh, what is stk? You know? I've been admiring your work from afar, right? I mean, you didn't know this so the fact that you, you make your decision to join stk, it got Winky, right? Um, tell us a bit more. Uh, stk, the, the kind of, um, business model that STK operates in and the kind of role that you were doing at stk.

Yao Hong: 9:59

So, STK is actually a digital wealth manager, a robot advisor, right? we, we were definitely the pioneers when we started in 2016. Back then, there was one or two other competitors that were just starting out, right? I, I happened to be on LinkedIn. I received a message. My cto then across, uh, and then we connected over LinkedIn and then I met the founding team. They were looking to offer us to build the product and then looking to hire the first few engineering people. Right. And then, uh, I, I was, uh, kind of looking at the point in time, so we connected on LinkedIn. I, I met all the founders at Coffee them chat with, uh, Michel Chat out with Freddy and then it up quite well, right? I was like, okay, why not, you know, series eight, I mean pre right and. It was Cambodia right at the point in time. Cause, like what advisory? There was nothing like this in, in, in Asia. Right. There were some, examples in, in the US like Betterman well front, and then they were around for maybe a point in two, three years. Really. But, but you could also see that trajectory of their goal was pretty good. So it course pick my interest back due to my, previous experience in equities market. So it kind of like, oh, combine what I, I had done before, or rather something I was very interested in, in terms of finance investing, and then with my tech skills and pure product. So I was like, okay, sure, why not? Let's just, uh, do it. And then I sign up and. Before I do it six years. Right. No thanks of Covid for the last two years. Yeah.

John Lim: 11:31

And for, for the audience out there who probably not so familiar with like Robo-advisor, the term Robo Robo advisor. Yeah. Digital wealth manager. Like, can you give a bit more, uh, insights or give bit more explanation of what, what, how's it different from the typical, uh, banking in Truman, for example? Right. So

Yao Hong: 11:45

I think, uh, the, the nearest, I would say. In most people minds, right? Like when you look at investments, they probably will think of ETS or think of, uh, mutual funds. Back then before ETS was just up also. So a lot of people's approach to, to investing or like maybe a financial advisor sells you a unique transfer, which is actually a kind, like a mutual fund and all that, and, and you, you invest in the fund. Then they will maybe invest in SMP 500 or uh, Asia or China by different teams and then they try. Manage, the buying and selling of the equities inside, right? So of course the aim is to have long-term wealth, right? Long-term growth in, in your portfolio. Uh, unfortunately, uh, the industry is such that mutual funds actually have very high uh, fees, right? So like when you buy a mutual fund from a bank, for example, you set up paying 2% ready for Cause you gotta pay the guy who's selling you the product, right? The financial. right? And then the fund itself has its own national fees, right? Which can be very high, right? You know, 4%, 10%, maybe not 10%, but like three to 4% for some of them. And, as a finance person, and to me it felt very onerous, right? And, and, and it was very stickle, right? Like, I not man on the street asking about investing, it was like, oh, I don't know. How do I open a stocking account, right? Do I just buy a stock? Do I buy this? And, and with the advent of, um, ETS coming into space, into the. actually, it makes investing much easier, right? Instead of just buying one company, you can buy a basket of companies, right? Like s and p five and just buy etf, right? for example.

John Lim: 13:27

Yeah. So for the audience etf role exchange trader funds, digital trader funds. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you talk about like paying the man who sells you that product. That's what I think on term sheet is called, distribution cost. Right. Distribution, yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, I was in banking with my start of my career, so I, yeah. When I saw distribution, I thought there's only, I thought it's a term only used for physical goods. So then after knowing that, yeah, so they, they actually stash all this. sales charges or sales commission under this system called distribution. Yeah. So, and, and it's funny in my opinion because you were a day trader and um, and now, how big statu away means using some kind of algorithm there is a bit less human centric to invest for people, right.

Yao Hong: 14:12

No. So actually, uh, when I was doing day training or rather, prop training, I would say, right, uh, I was doing quite a bit of algorithm kind of approach to the market. Very systematic, very qualitative type of methods. So there was, you know, a lot of math involved, trying to build models, trying to do understand the, you know, finding noise in the noise, right? Find some kind of etch in the noise. Got it, got it. Yeah, so, so it was kind of interesting that, uh, tradition but in between I actually sat was running my own company. Yeah. So I, I was not a very successful trader, I say unfortunately, but, but it was something I didn't get on my system. Right. Maybe more about later. Right. Yeah. Uh, so I started my own development shop, right. And then I started building products for customers. And along the way, you know, I thought, uh, it was actually very interesting, this whole process where I building a product. I didn't own it, right. People were paying me. I was just gonna build it. I had my own team, you know, we were just building up several products for quite a few companies and, and it was fun, but there was no ownership. That's why when approached me, I was like, Hey, why not? You know, do something different and, and let's see how, how that goes. Yeah.

John Lim: 15:18

yeah, tell us, I, I want to, I'm curious about your decision making, right? Uh, you were gonna be employed, number two. Do you know that you're gonna be employed number two at stk?

Yao Hong: 15:31

Yeah, I knew it was actually, uh, very early. So I was actually the first engineering hire. Right. Then we started building the team around that. Yeah.

15:40

How,

John Lim: 15:41

how was that decision process like from, uh, doing your own thing to joining Stash Away, being a very early, uh, team member? How was, uh, the no risk right?

Yao Hong: 15:52

Associated? Yeah. I, I would say in between. There was also something that happened. I, I missed, restart the detail. So when I was running my own shop, there was a customer that, uh, we were working with, right? And then they actually hire us in a sense, but because they, they really like the way we were building the product and the way we worked. So they just brought me and my partner out. So we, we joined, uh, this company called Creon Data for a couple of months. Mm-hmm. right? So unfortunately for that, uh, the project, after a few months, you realize, okay, maybe it wasn't going the direction that they, they wanted it to, to hit, right. So we, we were like, okay, maybe it's time for me to make another move. So it was all about timing, right. In sense, right. But I didn't really plan it. And then LinkedIn message, ma'am, you know, so, yeah. In fact, for gen camp also, it was, I was respond to a LinkedIn message, uh, to recruit. Mm-hmm. I saw, I saw, I saw recruiter send me a message about this role in the vc, like there was it before, right? It's very rare, right? Mm-hmm. why not just reply and then just have a conversation? Like, I mean, there's, there's no loss in that, right? Just having open conversations with people to find out what they're doing and all that. Yeah.

John Lim: 16:59

Yeah. Do you, it sounds like, um, there wasn't much,

Yao Hong: 17:02

uh, perceived risk of being an early, of course there was. Of course, of course there was. I mean, uh, of course coming off from doing my own company, I would say the least is definitely less. Right? When, when you're running your own show, you have to worry about not just your own paycheck, you have to worry about your people that you're feeding, right? Yeah. Your family, your, your employees, your partners, uh, investors. If you are, if you bring in DC money or something like that, right? So definitely compared to that, right? Joining an early startup, it's less risk cause I get paid anyway. And, and what's the downside, right? The downside is that bring, that the thing doesn't work up. I lose a job, like I cannot sign a job. So that, that was a very simple heuristic, I guess in terms of making decision like that. But of course, if you're transiting from a very well paying job to early stage, then yeah, the least is definitely higher. That's how we paying job. know, 96, 97, I don't know. And, and you just end up get a paycheck another the month. Right. You do Don't do also get paid. Don't work. Yeah. You start, you know, go down. Yeah. Your contribution is very high, especially at stage. Yeah.

John Lim: 18:10

what just said, um, I want to, I want to double click on that. you sounded like you were not afraid to get another job, right? If you were fired by a early stage startup. Right. If you

Yao Hong: 18:20

lose that job, I wouldn't say fired, but more, more like if the startup doesn't work out. Right. I think the, the largest risk for joining an early stage company is that the idea that building doesn't work out. Right. You lose funding and then every day, you know, the entire team just dissolves. Right. Or you struggle for a long time. You, you pay, get statement, or, you know, there's quite a lot of, uh, things that can happen. Right. Especially at the early stage. So the risk is very, very high at the point in time in terms of like finding product market fit. Uh, Getting paid on time even. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Especially at that point in time, I think in 2016, right? Uh, the, the space was just starting to hit up. Yeah. Right, right. Only, we only saw like, um, for me at least like 20 18, 20 19, where suddenly Right. Startups became the ending. Yep. Right. And then especially with a lot more money coming in. So pay actually went up. Yeah. In fact, I, I was taking pay cuts all along the way, right? Where in, in a lot of my trade career transitions. Right. I took a pay cut to go trading. Right. And then I started company, then I, well, to another kind of like a pay to join the company again. Right. So, so in terms of optimizing for my, uh, so income, right. Probably wasn't the best decision. Like if you're trying to optimize on that, right. Compared to someone. Okay. I go to a job, I go to a bank, I have a job. I reach director level. I grew up higher as a director. Your, your path is set right? And your page keeps going up. Yeah,

John Lim: 19:53

yeah. No, I hear you Right. The context. just, to me, it struck to me, that struck out to me that you were confident, right? That if the startup that you join doesn't work out, you could get, or rather you were not so afraid about lending another job, another role. And I don't see this kind of confidence in a lot of, people nowadays, in my opinion, at least in my circle, right? Or at least at our peers, right? Cuz we went to the same batch at, uh, s smu, right? And, um, I like your example, your contact example model that you gave was like someone who was being a high paying job and joining, uh, a startup with, with a pay cut. my logic is that why can't that same person who has been gaining high paying job at the bank, or a big m n c. Also think along the same way, right? That if I join a startup that doesn't work out in the, I can always go back to the corporate world. I feel that there's less people who think that way, right. Versus your situation. Right? So, so that to me, struggle out to me. Right? Like, like, okay. Okay. Yeah. So there's always a cut, right? Say for example, pay cut in terms of also risk, increase in risk when you join something established to joining a company that is more early stage. But what can't employees who make this switch think the same that, you know, we come

Yao Hong: 21:01

from Yeah. Fundamentally, I, I would say it's, uh, I guess confidence in my skills, right? Or rather my many, many skills, right? I, I, I would turn myself like a co-coach, right? Uh, like, you know, cannot keep one, even if I, you know, don't have this job. I have a lot of other skills that I could tap on Yeah. To kind of survive and make money, right. Simple things like, okay, I can drive a car, right. If I really need money, I could always, you know, uh, be a driver, for example. Yeah. Right. You can still make money. Right. You can still survive. Yeah. So it's all about survivability in a sense, right? Like having something fall back on. Yeah. So I would, I would say that if you were a career person, right, and you don't spend time building up skills and or other transferable skills, then maybe the perceived risk is very high. Mm-hmm. Right? Whereas for me, you know, I, I, I, I can program, I can, I can develop, right? And, and, and it's, uh, industry where, uh, the demand is definitely higher than supply. Mm. Right. So if doesn't work up, I mean, I no doubt that, you know, like companies are lining up to, to hire, you know, people with this kind of particular.

John Lim: 22:11

Yeah, yeah. No, no, this is cool. I, yeah. We are just getting to the meat of, uh, of the conversation. Yeah. and then I want to sort of end off, uh, the part about Statue way. So, and then before Statue away, you did your own thing. Uh, you told us that, um, you were doing your own shop or your own thing, and then you got sort of like bought up. and that gives you some kind of, uh, lump sum right. Of cash.

Yao Hong: 22:34

It wasn't a lot like, I mean, it wasn't like a huge amount of money. Okay. It was, just you know what I mean? Because I, I spent so many money, so many years of my career actually without a lot of, uh, money. Okay. Right. I, I literally paid myself like, uh,$700 the first two years of running my own shop per month. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So it's actually even less than Visa a pay. So I was actually quite happy to go with a first Visa, visa, actually pay with my and my appointment pay and all that. Yeah. Yeah.

John Lim: 23:05

Got it. Got it. Um, okay. And yeah, I, I, well now I'm stuck by my train of thought. Uh, sorry. Really pace more go back than this year. Yeah, yeah. No, all good. All good. Uh, Louis Pace you more and, uh, let's, let's talk about, Before you run your own shop, before doing the tech stuff, you were a day trader, right? And you were in finance, right? More or less, right? Yeah. Yeah. You were offered straight away after we graduated in a very bad year in 2009. Yep. The year after Lehman Brothers collapsed. You, you joined. I mean, you seek your job in finance, which is quite rare at a point in time. Yep. So you were doing institutional sales, at Phillip Securities. Yep. And then you do day Trader. Now, I, I think this move from finance slash trading to tech is super, super drastic. Yeah. How do you manage

Yao Hong: 23:52

this maneuver? Huh? I would say, uh, it wasn't by volition, right? So thankfully, I mean, again, I, I had ability to program or quote, right? In a sense been when we were growing up, uh, I like play tinkering computers already. So very early on in, even in school, I was actually freelancing to do websites and all that. right? So I was kind of avoiding money from there, right? I also was doing a photography gig. We can talk about it later, right? While I was in school. So I was always trying, having all this like hustles at, at the site and, and programming was something that, uh, came naturally in a sense, right? So when I was, even when I was doing social trading, uh, I also tried to involve a bit of, this kind of approach to the markets, right? Recently I met, I met my old boss, and then he, he, he, he did me a command, right? He remembered me because, even though we are doing sales, I, I also do some stuff right? To make my job easier, right? Like small programs, you know, I, I put the, daily price changes of, of, uh, other equities in Singapore, right? And they just pop up and did some simple regression models and say, okay, these are the stocks. They are kind of like gaining momentum and these are the ones they're losing momentum. And using that, I could turn it into a story to talk to my customers, right? I was like, oh, yeah, by the way, you know, uh, stop. A has been rising in the last three, four days. It's been, it's quite interesting. Maybe you wanna take a look, uh, maybe I can find out for you on the street what, what's happening, you know? Right. So, as associated, your job is a lot about, um, interrelationship, right? Interpersonal relationships. Right. Doing the sales kind of thing. And they're executing for customers. So, so at a point in time, while I was doing the execution, I, I, I thought I was very good in the market. My read was kind of good. I, I would think, right? And then, uh, wanted to make money. So I said, oh, why not just join, you know, pop trading? Because a few friends went in. I was like, okay, sure. Let's, let's try this up, right? Unfortunately, I spent almost three years, uh, at a gig, right? It wasn't really paid, right? Yeah. A small allowance, right? We were kind of like commissioned, right? You, you, you get paid what you make, right? So if you don't make anything, you won't get paid. but it was actually very good training because, it forced me to be, again, out, out of the comfort zone, right? Trying to come up with models, trying to come up with, uh, different approaches to, to, uh, tackle the market. Right. Unfortunately, I would say I, I kind of suck at the gig, you know, so and then I had to, had to, uh, move out of it. And then, because I was away from finance for, for a couple like, uh, two to three years really, right? It wasn't easy to get back into the finance track, right? Imagine back then like four to five years of, uh, our school, right? I tried to apply for a couple of jobs, right? I didn't have the relevant experience in a sense, right? to get some jobs in, in sudden, like, I wanna go back to do, do sales trading, right? But my last, the latest experience wast kind of relevant, right? If wanna do sales job, they'd be like, oh, you know, I'll be looking for someone a bit more senior. You are too expensive for someone at a point in time of career, right? And then, uh, so I was like, okay. I maybe go, I do some consulting, right? Uh, cause I, I may have been doing that anyway in the past, right? Uh, talked to several people and somehow door just didn't open. So I was like, ah, why not? Just, uh, in the meantime, I needed to get some money. So I started doing some projects for a couple of, uh, contacts, right? And then somehow from there it was like, gee, not too bad, you know, and then started getting a bit more deals coming in, right? Due flow, right? And then went there, started getting, doing sales, trying to, uh, build up this business. And then I thought, okay, why not do this in the business? And then I sat down and, and plan out like how this business would look like, right? But in terms of, uh, how I wanted it to, to grow, right? I modeled it after several, uh, Blu development companies that were doing well, right, uh, globally, right? The way the approach I, I find customers, the way we tackle problems, and then. And, and I think end of day, I am a problem solver, right? I, I like to solve complicated problems, right? Gimme a problem set, look at it. Okay, yeah. How do we put this down in the smaller problem sets and how do we solve it? So that part of it actually spoke to me a lot. And then one thing led to another, you know, running my shop for three years. It was, it was, it wasn't easy, right? Thankfully, I had a very good partner in me who was, uh, more of the tech guy. Actually. I, I did a lot of sales, right? I was doing programming, but uh, I did all the sales, right? And then I go through my program and then, uh, with my partner, we, we, we managed to secure a lot more customers and, and we renew the business to actually quite, quite a decent skill for a very workshop, right? But then we, we actually, we had a problem. We, we couldn't hire, right? Because, uh, there was a time where Greg started becoming, and at other startup income started coming onto the scene. They were getting very aggressive in terms of pay. Yeah. Right? So for fresh Grant, uh, you know, I couldn't pay$3,000 to get a fresh grant anymore, right? The pay started going up crazy. I was like, wow, these guys are only getting bit more than me.

John Lim: 28:50

Yeah. So, so question, for the on out there, why is prop trading?

Yao Hong: 28:55

Uh, prop trading is proprietary trading, right? So basically, uh, some guy has some money, right? They fund you to trade. So think of it, that's like a small, uh, say start up in a sense, right? Like you, you come in, you take someone's money, right? You trade and then you share the profits with if, if your, your backer. Got it.

John Lim: 29:13

Yeah. And can I, uh, can I assume that, uh, while you are doing, um, your prop trading for two years, along this two years, you already started the site hustle of like going to people trying to sell your tech stuff, right? Your tech

Yao Hong: 29:28

shop? No, no, I didn't. I didn't. Yeah. Well, I mean, the job itself was time consuming, right? I was on the floor. maybe 16 hours a day. Mm-hmm. every day. Mm-hmm. it, it was very time consuming. It was, uh, exhausting to be honest. Mm-hmm. Right. Because, you know, and very desperate times, I would say, you know, I didn't get paid a lot of my eating into my savings and mm-hmm. Yeah. And, but thankfully, I mean, the firm was very, very kind to me because, you know, in any other place, right after three months or six months of non-performance, they would've fired a person. Mm-hmm. Right. But they came around, I think, because I was always trying to find different edges, I would say Right. There was unconventional to what they were doing. Mm-hmm. right. And then, but unfortunately there was also, also wasn't anyone who could give guidance in a sense. Right. So I was just grouping around the duck. Yeah. So read a lot of books to other people and internet and then that point in time. Right. there wasn't a lot of open information on the internet. right. Compared to this day h these days, right. You, you wanna learn about trading, you wanna learn about markets, right? They are websites, they are, uh, discount groups. They are ready, there's ready, there's so many places for someone who wants to learn about the market, right. To actually gain the information. But I saw it was definitely a different time, uh, back then in 20 30, 20 14. Yeah.

30:53

Hi, hope you're enjoying the episode so far. I'm interrupting my own episode to tell you that this podcast has launched a newsletter. If you'd like to receive bonus content from this podcast and topics on career change and growth, consider subscribing to our email newsletter. Link is in the episode description. Now back to the episode.

John Lim: 31:13

when do you know that it was time to cut the cup and, um, do a different thing and move on? Uh,

Yao Hong: 31:20

I think, you know, like, you know when you drip going, going to work, right? Every morning you wake up and it is very consistent, right? Every morning in, in all the changes, right? When, when I wake in the morning, but you dread going to work. Right. You score like, oh man, I still got like last hours.

John Lim: 31:36

What about the concept was sun cost, right? I mean, you, you spent, this is a start of career, right? You spent, almost two years in Philippines securities and then last two years in, in prop trading. That's four years, right? And some say four years is, is valuable, right? I mean, some people complain to years. NS is, it's insane. So, so how about like sun calls? How do you do your sun calls? Like, Hey, I spent my, my four years of my early career now in this, and now what's next? Right. How do you get through this?

Yao Hong: 32:02

I think probably it comes from trading itself, right? Where we are conditioned to cut losses, right? And I think, uh, one of the. because issue that a lot of people have is this concept of, of holding onto, uh, losses. Right? Like back holding, right? Mm-hmm. if, uh, talk about red terms, right? You buy something, you drop to$20. Ah, yeah. It's so low. You might go back up and then you just keep holding onto it. Yeah. Right. And then it goes to zero, right? Yeah. Yeah. It is a, it is a human psychology that's actually very hard to overcome. Yeah. Right. I would say. Yeah.

John Lim: 32:39

Yeah. It's lost a version, right? Is

Yao Hong: 32:41

that a word? Yeah. Loss aversion. Right? Because cutting loss means you aim that you are wrong. Yeah. I mean, I still suffer from it, from my own training now and then. Yeah. Right. I, I, I should have cut something earlier. I didn't. Right. Even after so many years, I still suffer from it.

John Lim: 32:55

Yeah. Yeah. Got it. And how, how hard was it like, or how, how was it like to move from like prop trading to setting up your own tech shop?

Yao Hong: 33:06

Oh man. That was like probably one of the most difficult things I've done in my life. right? I had no industry connections. I didn't know anyone. Right. And, a lot of hustle was there, right? Basically every day just going out there to make friends, you know, join different networking groups, right? I remember going to like random, uh, meetups, right? When no small business meetups. Cause my target audience was, since I'm a young, small company, I could only target, uh, smaller companies, right? Cause I had no track record, right? So in order for me to pick my track record, I need to meet all these smaller companies to, to gain sales, hopefully.

John Lim: 33:45

Can you give us a example of a solution that your tech shop or your company has provided for a.

Yao Hong: 33:51

Okay. So very simple. We, we basically, we were, uh, business consulting slash IT solution kind of firm, right? Uh, so typically we would go to SME and then they would've some kind of issue. For example, the, the simplest job would be that website, right? Mm-hmm. So that those are the easiest jobs, right? We website only. And that point in time, the tools are also not available for companies to do their own websites easily. Mm-hmm. but there was workplace, right? And then there was a few scratch, other square Squarespace haven't came out yet. Okay. But when test came out, that that part of business totally right. Q because now scratch basically do beautiful insights with no, right? But there was this basically, I'm trying to, I was trying to find niche in markets where that's somehow inefficiency, right? Yeah. So, uh, these companies, they need a website. Yeah. Those are the easiest job, right? And then we could charge decent amount money, like$2,000 for our simple website. Yeah. right? Yeah. And then, uh, yeah, so it was, it was good times, right? In a sense. Yeah. And then for larger companies, I study, uh, sorry, for more for companies with like a bit more, uh, like things to solve, right? We will build, sell them like a CRM solution, for example, or accounting software, right? Or we build some in-house. Uh, how, how view e-commerce for you. Yeah. Right? So we did quite a few e-commerce solutions, right? The companies that wanted to sell the products online. And that was before Shopify came about, right? Before these tools were there, right? Yeah. And, and make things, so, so it was, uh, in a sense there was a demand, right? For people to sell things online, but, and, and they always with

John Lim: 35:29

this, yeah. Yeah. And once again, it's timing

Yao Hong: 35:31

as well. Timing. Yeah. I mean, if you try to do this now, I think, I don't think you are gonna survive. I

John Lim: 35:37

would say. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Tech, I think this right? Service. Service is a software, a service, yeah. Has made it a lot more easier for, uh, entrepreneur or a business person to

Yao Hong: 35:47

do this. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. And, and, and we, part of the business also, uh, I, I saw a trend that people were starting to get into startups. So we did service a few, uh, entering folks, right? Who say, Hey, I don't, I wanna build this startup idea, right? but I don't know how to program. So we partnered them. We haven't built, uh, the products for them, right? We even worked with, I would say, innovation labs. Yeah. Yeah. So we did work with a couple of innovation labs, right? Yeah. They had accelerators, acceler, right? Accelerators? No, not really. So innovation labs are actually, like, uh, like corporates, right. Where they want to in-house ideas. Yeah. Right. But of course, uh, they don't have the necessary talent within the company. Yeah, right. To build the product. So they work with like companies like mine, right. Uh, to build products for them. So it was fun. It was definitely very fun because we, we came in, they tell us, okay, we had this idea, we're gonna do this, but this is like, kind of how we wanna structure it. So I will go and find the, maybe the UIUX designers we work with, um, the business side, trying to break down this problem into different, uh, solvable sets. And then we started building out this thing together, right? So, so, uh, as a completely progress over time, we went from, you know, doing very simple websites Right. To building products for customers. Right. And, and again, it was timing, right? Because the, the trend was there, right. People wanted to, to come out and, and do all these things. Yeah. And

John Lim: 37:14

you said that you are a self-taught programmer or developer, right. And you, you had the skills when you were in school at s smu

Yao Hong: 37:25

or Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, I did do, uh, information systems as a second major. Mm-hmm. which was obviously very uncommon then. Yeah, right. I was, I was like a business guy who did, most people did business and finance, finance, marketing. Yeah. Right. Or economics and finance. Right. Yeah. So, uh, yes, I was like, maybe I should just try and do is right, because I could already program. Right. And that is probably what my regrets in life. I, I should have done that as well. First degree I had done so much better in school. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. In fact, I did better in my information system causes, right. Than my finance. What,

John Lim: 37:59

so yeah, you, you graduated in those nine, uh, in the midst of, economic crisis. And you still chose despite having tech skills, right? Or some tech skills, some info system skills. You still chose finance as an industry to start off, start your career with, uh, and later on after trying four years, right? In trading and in finance, you came to tech, right? tell us a bit more about that. Like, do you look back and say, Hey, maybe I should started in tech first. Um, and, and was it also a sign of the times? Right. Um, when I say that, because a lot of our peers, uh, obviously did business school, s smu, and then they, they are in banking, they're in the finance. And I have personally, I have friends who say, Hey, they can see the right things on the wall, right? Tech has kind of, or tech or data has become the new currency, right? Yeah. Um, uh, tech has become the, the new goal, you know, uh, so to speak. And they, they are worried, right? With all those digital banks coming on board, like digital banking licenses given by the mon monetary authority of Singapore, um, what's the thing on all this, right? Do you, do you look back and say, Hey, maybe I should have done tech first?

Yao Hong: 39:11

I think it's very hard to, to say that because, uh, when we were at the age, I, I remember right, we had no freaking clue what to do in our lives, right? You had so many, you, you were told your entire life what to do, right? Go study, get a degree. Yeah. Uh, yeah. You know, be a doctor, be a lawyer, right? Uh, or be, go to banking, be a consultant. So, so I would say it, it is very hard to say that, and I, I regretted anything or like regret forcing it. right. But I would say that, uh, maybe it's definitely, uh, a sign in terms of, um, a trend, right? So in the past when we were, I remember when we were in, in jc right? It was like, you know, uh, life sciences was a trend, right? we were being high hurted to do that. And then a lot of people I remember having early on after a couple of years after you graduated, I met a friend. I mean a friend had a baby shower and then they all, the whole, all these friends came from life science, right? So I was talking to like five, six of them and I was like, Hey, what are you guys doing now? Right? Oh, the entire group. And there was only one person was still doing life science states, literally everybody pivoted and move on to something else, right? So I would say that, uh, it's definitely being able to spot trends. Obviously if you have excuse, uh, of course a crystal ball, that would be fantastic. But, uh, as human beings, I would say that, uh, that's tough, you know, to, to gain that skill. I would. Yeah. So I think a lot of comes from reading, getting to know what's in the world, right? Not getting stuck in your bubble. Right. And of course, having, uh, putting effort to go and learn more about these kind things. Yeah.

John Lim: 40:58

Um, so let's about career pivots and talk about transferable skills, right. Early on. Talk about having transferable skills. You're very confident in your many transferrable skills. That's why you're not so worried. or rather you will, you will feel that you're confident that you can learn something that makes you money, right? May not be a lot, but at least something. how do you recommend people build many transferable skills?

Yao Hong: 41:18

Hmm, good question. How do you, how do you do it at a, I think maybe it's a personality thing, right? I'm a very curious person, right? As you can see from my, uh, soap experience, right? I'm very curious. I like to find out what's happening to the world, right? When, and then when, I have a thought, I was just, okay, we're just gonna read out about it, right? Start from reading and, it all starts from there, right? Finding out information and you start going down this rabbit hole, right? Reading, reading, reading. And, and I think it all starts from there then, because you can say you wanna do something? Oh, vacuum, right? Like, oh shit, wake up there because okay, I want to learn more about, uh, molecular biology. Mm-hmm. then you force yourself to go and like, you know, learn some skills because I wanna get a job. It doesn't start that way. It's more like huh? How does cells. work Like, how, how do this, uh, how do they interact with each other, for example, right? Mm-hmm. how do medicine work? And then start getting books or, reading online articles and, from there, you, start building up a knowledge base, right? And then from there, from the knowledge base, then you start, doing things around it, So, so my latest, I would say my latest, um, maybe example, my latest obsession, I would say has been baking because, uh, no times to covid again, right? And not just normal baking, right? But actually, uh, sour baking, right? Cause you know, I, I was like, kind of bought, I like, Hey, how does this fermentation thing work? So I've had a tinkering implementation. It was quite fun. And then I I, I, I played lot for a while. I, I started picking like ing other weird stuff. The house built weird, right? And then, uh, so the latest was, uh, has been sour for the last couple of. uh, maybe last year. Mm-hmm. right? So, uh, I bought some books. I read like, how do you turn this like flour do thing that's this sour smelling right into piece of bread. Right? Yeah. And how do you think around right as I experimented, like, you know, times different type of fermentation, the different methods, right? And then actually making a bread and then, you know, so for me it's always about like satisfying this curiosity I have.

John Lim: 43:34

right? Yeah. So now his thumb are bad. It can also be a bigger

Yao Hong: 43:37

Right. Bigger, yeah, exactly. I mean, before I tried my tried be like, yeah, she's pretty good. Yeah.

John Lim: 43:43

I like the, what you use about cockroach track. Uh, I think that was the word that, um, Y Combinator, um, used to describe Airbnb founders, right? The reason why, um, they backed or the investor in, uh, Airbnb was because they found that the, the co-founders, the two of them, they, they they'll do what it takes to survive. And I think adding on to what you said about, besides being curious and, and, and reading and researching more about your curiosity, I think it's also about that mindset shift, right? To, to say that you need to survive at all costs and there is no shame or there is no shame in leveraging certain skills that you might have just to make a living. and this. Making sure that you survive at all costs. I think that's also a, I mean, people call it greet sometimes. Right? Um, and, and I think that's also, I feel quite powerful, um, for people out there. And I think I see this also because in the context that now a lot of tech, um, companies are having layoffs and, uh, the company where they work at also announced layoffs, uh, in July. And, uh, I think that also got me thinking about like, my own skill sets. Um, so yeah, I like the, the word about cockroach having many transferable skills, uh, and, and making sure you survive. Yeah, I

Yao Hong: 44:54

like that lot. I think the, most important thing we need to remind ourselves is that no one owes us a living, right? And, we have control over our trajectory in life. But what you can do where you're going, but you can't say that, oh, yeah, I, got no choice at all. Oh, you have free, will right? you can choose to do anything you. want

John Lim: 45:12

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And like, what's one advice, I mean, you obviously have a very unconventional career path. Uh, I think, uh, timing, uh, played a big part in, in your moves. Um, what's one advice to people considering career move for career switching right now?

Yao Hong: 45:32

I would say give you a lot of thought. Uh, for sure. Right? Don't just jump on the bandwagon because oh, tech is the new thing, right? I mean, tech is a new thing, but what's inside tech, right? It's. The, the universes are is very large, right? Yeah. There's product, there's marketing, there's development. Of course there's data, right? There's operations, right? That's a lot of things that, uh, is involved, right? So I would, I would suggest that, people sit down, think through very carefully and plan, for themselves, right? Like having some kind of mental framework, right? Where, where you are very clear and, you can see that what you're trying to do, you're trying to achieve, right? And then hopefully from there you iterate upon your decisions, right? So it's not like things that you wake up, okay, I'm gonna keep my job and do something. Right? It's not right. It's like, okay, I wanna do this maybe in six months time. How do I get there? Right? How, how do I gain the skills for me to be able to do this in six months? Yeah. And, and then, uh, what, what is missing in my life? Uh, what kind of support I need, what kind of things I need to learn, right? Who do I need to talk to? Who are people that can help me in this journey? So all those things are very important,

John Lim: 46:45

right? Yeah. So I I, I hear you right. I think you said three things, right? Um, I think give you a lot thought. Don't just jump onto the bandwagon, have some sort of plan and a mental framework on planning this transition. And also think about your support network, right? Correct. Correct. Um, what one advice you give to the fresh grant version of yourself.

Yao Hong: 47:04

Fresh grant version. Just do again, you see, you

John Lim: 47:08

see, just not, you just said that, you know, people should plan, should, should give you a lot of thought, but now you say just.

Yao Hong: 47:14

For the fresh grad you have to try, right? Because fresh grads what, kind of basis do we have? Like, like what kind of, experience do you, do, you know? Like you, looking back, you know, we, go through a lot of things in life and I realize that talking to people actually, or reading or, listening to podcast and all this, right? It's actually a very good, avenue to learn about things beyond your scope. Cause Cuz you may not know people who are doing this, right But man, nowadays, all these podcasts that especially your podcast are doing right. It helps people with, so many things. I learn so much just listening to. podcasts right? In the last two, three years that, that I wouldn't have necessarily, picked up from friends in, the industry or, my, or people, Around me.

John Lim: 48:00

Yeah. Spot on. A hundred percent agree with you. Not because I'm doing a podcast, but I've been a big consumer podcast, right? Myself, right? Thinking since 2016 onwards, and I've been a big beneficiary. And I think I want add one thing is that it's not so much about the hard skills. You may learn from listening to talking or listening to people or on podcasts or YouTube videos, but it's also about how they think perspectives. Right? I think that's very valuable, at least to me. everyone has a job where everyone has work, everyone has to work, uh, at least you know, before you retire, but how do you approach work? How do you approach certain things in life? Right? I. having different perspectives. I feel that that gives me more variety, uh, letting me know that what's out there, right. That I'm just not limited to my option or options that me and my friends know, right? Mm-hmm. So I thought that was really, really powerful for me. It really opened up my, my horizons, um, and, and how I view about life. So, so I'm a hundred percent I agree with you. Um, but, you know, and I ask you this because I know you're, you're a thinker, right? My observation is that you're a thinker. Um, this notion about opportunity costs, right? I'm a French guy right now. Um, but, you know, this few years is important because opportunity cost is high, right. You know, and this could be my foundation. Yes. If I got the wrong step, wrong industry, then I'm, I'm wasting my time. Right? I mean, how do you do with that? How do you, do people say this to you?

Yao Hong: 49:23

Going back to what we talked about last time, right? Uh, having optionalities, right? In terms of your, your move side. So you want to, uh, kind of. choose a path where it's not day end if it doesn't work out right. So for example, uh, let's say, uh, you, you end up in the early stage in your career, a very, very niche job. I don't know what's a very job that someone can relate to Podcast? Yeah.

John Lim: 49:51

Say a new job. Uh, could be, I don't know, like molecular biologist, uh,

Yao Hong: 49:58

bio. Yeah. Not this, not this. Them, not them. Vanish. Just vanish. Yeah. I mean, it's not that for Dish is that sometimes you really need passion, right? That, that you do it. Yeah. Yeah. If you did something niche without a passion, then I don't think you, it's my, to me, being

John Lim: 50:13

a accountant requires, is vanish. Right? I can never do numbers all day. So to me,

Yao Hong: 50:17

I, but to me, a accountant, actually, you. We have a lot of nationalities. Right. So accounting wise, right? You have very great numbers. You, uh, you know, companies. True and true, right? And outside of accountancy there's quite a lot of jobs, right? That okay, I

John Lim: 50:32

know. Apply to, yeah, I know. Answer, uh, Nish could be joining the military, for example.

Yao Hong: 50:37

What do you think? Uh, yeah, so actually, okay. I'm very close friends with the military and we are still considering having this debate, right? I hope you listen to this podcast. Uh, literally, we just had this conversation this morning over WhatsApp, right? Cause, you know, is considering, uh, his own option, career plans, right? Has been an army since we left school, but even before that, cause they sign on like when they're 18, right? Yeah. So I would say that, uh, yeah, probably, right? Very niche because, uh, depends on what, what you, what you do in the Army, right? Right? So if you are like a super, uh, secretive, you need people what you do, yeah. Right? Then yeah. Your skills cannot, cannot be transferred out. But if let's say you are, you manage to like redesign on the officer and you have management skills, I would say then still not too bad, right? You could go out there using your interpersonal skills to do something, right? Most thing about the skills are not just hard skills, right? Like, uh, programming or, or accounting, right? It's also about thinking, strategizing, right? And, and I would say that, okay, even, uh, say you are in the Air Force, right? You are a pilot. Not at least you can become a pilot, right? Still doing the same thing. But of course you're very niche, you know, you can only do that, that pilot path, right? But one day you cannot fly, right? So that's a question I always ask myself. What if one day I cannot do this? Yeah. Right? And then how do you. like maneuver yourself out of it. Right. So for fresh class, I would say that, um, having to choose something, right. Just make sure that you, uh, acquire skills along the way that, that you, you can kind of transfer outside of that, that particular job. Right? Yeah. I think maybe that, that would be the most beneficial. Yeah.

John Lim: 52:25

Sure. So let's talk about, um, personalities in career. I think we do our lunch, we, we spoke about that. Uh, and then you said that it's something that your wife spoke to you about and then you did a big, uh, aha moment for you. Yeah. Tell us more about what you think about that. Like, like, like maybe give us an example, uh, of a path. Uh, what, what, what it means to have functionalities and how can someone go about their job search or their career path, having this.

Yao Hong: 52:52

Yeah. I think it's, uh, very conditioning from, from school days, I would say. Right. Her having, you know, talking to, to my wife who were like, Hey, uh, she said, you know, a lot of times in my past where in certain of my career moves, right? I end up getting to date, for example, when I went to trading, right? I didn't really think about what's next, right? Uh, I already thought about it in the sense that in the best scenario, wow, I'm gonna make a lot of money, then I'll do this forever. Right? I didn't plan that. Actually. I kind of suck at it. I will make money, right? And then I need to do something else, right? So, so it was difficult because I didn't, I couldn't transit or easily after that, that long move, right? Whereas for her, you know, when she was, uh, when she was in the government, she, well, she was, uh, work like in the first few years of career she decided to wear cfa, for example, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, doing a CFA is definitely not easy task, right? And, and by the virtual effect, that having gained that extra. uh, knowledge, right? She, she manage to cover a new path in, in life, like as playing a PG game, right? You are a certain character, right? You, you gain some skills, you level up, right? And then you can, of course just only palm all the skill sets for particular track, right? So you can be like the strongest speech forever, right? But you're very poor in, in physical skills. Whereas, uh, you could say, okay, I wanna also branch off and, and level up my physical attributes, right? So you can be a very strong bitch. They're not the best in both, but at least, you know, you can survive quite, quite a lot of, uh, different, different scenarios, I would say. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

John Lim: 54:29

may, maybe I, I will take a step at, uh, explaining or or defining what's having personalities, uh, uh, for career. So, um, this was interesting during a lunch cuz I have been also thinking about having personalities. In fact, I've been trying to plan my career on having personalities, right? So to me is that when I apply for the next job that I'm gonna do, I'm not applying for the next job, I'm applying for the job after that. Right? So let's say right now I'm in step one, step two, where my step two is depends on whether, how many step trees or how many options I have for step trees. That's how I choose my step two, right? I will choose a step two. That gives me a lot more options for step three, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I'm choosing my next step for the step after that. So, so for example, um, I, I mean there's also this in my mind, this debate about how specialized versus how general you want to be, right? Or your next role gonna be, right? Um, I mean, there's a saying, right? The riches are in the niches, right? Uh, for similar for trading, right? Warren Buffet said, you know, don't over-leverage or don't over yeah. Or always, you know, if you know what you want, go for it. So, I mean, there's also that school I've taught, but at least for my career, if I don't know, what I'm really passionate, what I really like, or what I'm really good at, especially in the beginning of my career, then it makes sense to have functionalities so that I'd not close myself to options down the road. Yeah. Like you said, we, it's not that possible for us to spot trends, predict the future. Yeah. So it's good to have that possibilities down the road in the event that the industry is gonna go down or the company's gonna go down, you know, that you have other options out there. Yeah. So that's how I kind of define and think about functionalities. Is it similar

Yao Hong: 56:09

to what you're thinking? Uh, I would say that maybe we focus a lot more on, on, uh, skills, right. That could survive in different industries, right? Yeah. I mean, for sure. Uh, reaches in the niches, right? So people who, who are uh, specialists as a doctor might make money, right? Quite, quite a lot of money. Uh, so, so that is not untrue, right? But I think for majority of people who are unsure where they are, patronize or where they want to specialize in, then yeah. You know, you definitely try to have more functionalities. Right. So I mean, for me, I, I guess I'm always maybe, um, how I put that ous also personally in a sense, right? In a sense where, where, let's say if I become very niche in a particular area, right? Uh, I mean, you can see in the past, right? All, I guess industry, well, I mean is this typical industry, right? People who go in at the beginning make a lot of money, right? They specialize in it then before you know it, the, the thing, pressures or whatever. Yeah. And, and you spend the next decade, right? Yeah. Languishing. Yeah. Right? So, so that, that is danger, right? Yeah. That, uh, because you don't know where you, I mean, you can tell of course, if you are observant enough, right? Where you are in, in the trend, right? Obviously, you want to position yourself right at the beginning of the trend as much as possible. Yep. Right Before even people know it. But if everybody is talking about it, right? Your friends are talking about it. You are talking about it, right? Your mom is talking about it. Then maybe, uh, yeah. too late. Not too, but, you know, you know that it's really in the, common site guide already. Yeah.

John Lim: 57:52

Yeah. I I mean there's also this joke about like, um, the pilot, right? I mean, of course, a freak thing happened, right? Covid 19 happened, and the joke is that, uh, a grab driver or a grab delivery driver probably make more money, right. During Covid 19 and a pilot, right? Because Yeah, for sure they were not flying, right? So, but of course no one could, could have like foreseen that, right? I think everyone generally think that pilot, it's a very prestigious career, is very niche, you know, being able to have a plane. Yeah. But, but yeah, of course timing methods, right? So a hundred percent. I, I agree with you. Um, hiring frameworks. I know you hire people. Mm-hmm. um, in, in your past roles and how, how do you go about hiring people? What, what kind of frameworks that you have when you hire people?

Yao Hong: 58:38

Yeah, so I mean, this obviously comes from reading quite a few, uh, books on hiring, right? And ultimately, we always go back to first principles, like, what am I hiring for, right? And as a team, uh, when, when I'm building a team or, or building a company, right? Like, uh, firstly, what kind of people are not attract, right? What kind of culture I wanna grow? And then obviously that informs the kind of people I'm looking for. Then it fits into my hiring frameworks, right? Where we look at, cause I mean, when you apply for a job, right? You have a jd, okay, you want this particular hard skills and all that. There are hard skills a lot of people can have, but actually the soft skills that is more important to me. right? So, so last part of my framework also looks at soft skills, right? But then how do I test all these skills during my interview process, for example? Yeah. So, uh, so I I, a couple of books that read, uh, talking about like high, high philosophy hiring, right? How you can build up, uh, frameworks within a company where you are consistent in terms of evaluating your candidates, right? Cause actually, I've seen in companies such small, right? People are, when they do interviews, right? Yeah. I told this guy, I like this guy. He's very good talking, right? Yeah. And then you hire a person, next thing you know, actually guy comes in, he such a pretty crappy white does. Yeah, right? And then, and, and, but the thing is that, oh yeah, she made a bit higher. Then you just hire a guy or something. But you don't go back to your process and say, okay, in, in our evaluation, right. Actually we messed. right? So, so hiring frameworks can be simple, simple things like, you know, first thing trips that you wanna hire for, right? Then questions that help you to answer these traits, right? Or tasks that you can do that can help you to figure this out. Okay? So that's very extra. So maybe in a last session manner, let's say I'm hiring for, uh, a team player, right? I said team player, I want a team player. So how do I test for team player, right? So in my interview process, usually I have a round where we do a collaborative exercise together. Mm-hmm. let's, uh, solve a problem together, right? So I'll show the candidate, uh, no, we have this issue at work, right? Let's solve this together. Right? Get me through the top process, right? Mm-hmm. And then he starts whiteboarding. He or she starts whiteboarding, drawing out the things. And then I can play several roles during the, the interview. I can be very nasty just to see how this person, mm-hmm. uh, uh, deals with stress, right? or other, someone else can not. So I'll plan someone else in the meeting. Right. That's interview that's, uh, can be very more critical, right? Yeah. Very harsh, right? Just to see how this person reacts, right? Then we do the Google call back kind of thing also. Mm-hmm. right? Someone's very bad. Someone's very nice, right? And, and then from there, right? We, we ask questions, we do together and then working together as a team, right? Because it's just not just me, it is three for us. In, in, in the interview itself, we are able to find out whether this person is a team player, right? Because a non team player will be like, you know, just do anything himself or doesn't share, you know? And then that also helps us to, uh, with finding out whether this person will communicate or not. Right. And depending on what level I'm hiring for, right? Like, let's say it's a, uh, more junior level, it's okay. It's fine. Maybe as, I mean, unfortunately the, the stereotype developers are not very great at communication. Right. That's quite true. Right. So that's fine. But you, I'm looking for someone senior, right? This is the person is to come in and, and communicate and talk about their ideas. Right. Then Yeah. In our process, it helps us Yeah. With that. So yeah, in terms of framework, there's a lot of things we can do. Yeah. I guess, yeah. Another podcast,

John Lim: 1:02:11

thanks for this. Um, I missed a point about the career switches, right? I mean, we spoke about doing our online spoke about like there should be something on framework about to know what it's, uh, to decide whether career switch is good and what is not. Right? Because you, you mentioned, you've seen examples among your circle that someone. that having done a career switch, but it's not a positive one. Right. The, the result, uh, was not something that you would, you, would, you would like or you would recommend. So how, how does one thing about career switch, um, like, like what's a framework that you think that you have in mind to let someone know whether this career switch is good or not? Hmm. I know it's always about specific situation, right? But yeah, there's any, any framework, you know, I think that that could be helpful for the audience. Maybe,

Yao Hong: 1:02:56

maybe we as a walk through example, uh, maybe we have.

John Lim: 1:03:00

Let's say someone in banking, right? Let's say it's someone who did

Yao Hong: 1:03:03

business school. How old? Yeah. Um,

John Lim: 1:03:06

and then you spend, uh, so a fresh grad will people about 24 years old for a guy in country Ns. And then the 24 year old spend, let's say two years in banking, right? It could be joining a local bank, right? Okay. And local bank, let's say doing corporate banking. actually, I dunno what a corporate bank, bank banker does, but Correct, correct. Right. I mean that's, I think our time there was probably average like, uh, fresh grade role, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so two years later. Yeah. And this guy's been doing for two years and this and, and then maybe because people generally maybe our era or people younger than us Right. Okay. What's next? I see so many, uh, good resignation and all. There's covid 19 and all that. So think about all my options. So this person, yeah, put now could be a guy, it could be a girl, but yeah, let's go through that scenario. Okay,

Yao Hong: 1:03:55

so maybe, uh, we start from what is the person's interest, for example, right? What, okay. What kind of, I would say a male personality from personal. Okay. Right. Our personality tests are not scientific. They do inform us about how a person thinks or feels right or perceives the world. So let's start from there, right? Knowing yourself is very important, right? Self-awareness. So if you are a person who's like a big picture kind of guy, right? A big picture kind of person, right? You, you are always hit in a thoughts, right? Obviously you are curiously shouldn't be doing something that's very deep in details, right? Mm-hmm. Right? Like, oh, everything must look at numbers. Make sure that all add up together. It, yeah. Not saying that you can't it, right? Yeah. But obviously it's not something that will play to your strength. Yep. Right. So I think start from, from knowing yourself. I think that that is the key thing. A lot of people don't know themselves. Yeah. Right. Then we go very metaphysical. How do you know yourself? Right. How do you know yourself? How do you find out more about yourself? Right. I think, yeah. But that's again, another topic. Yeah. Uh, yeah. I think I'll podcast and go for three hours. Maybe this

John Lim: 1:05:09

Yeah. Yeah. We cank anyway. Yeah. If

Yao Hong: 1:05:13

people, I mean, if people ask part to, maybe we can quite talk more about it. Yeah. Start from personality, start from knowing what's your strength, uh, what you like, what you don't like. And then I would always advise the younger folks, right, fresh you must list out what you don't like to do. So that's easier. By, elimination of choice. Right. Like, oh, I don't wanna do this, I don't wanna do this. I hate numbers. So obviously you don't go for a jobs that involves numbers. I love people. Okay, great. That's one way to look at it, right? I love people. Yeah. I love talking to people. Okay, good. Right? And then from there you build on next said, right? Okay. What about talking to people? All I find out about their problems and then we sit down and, and discuss about their problems together. Fantastic. Right? Then from there we say, okay, what kind of jobs allow me do that? And then actually problem solving can be a lot of things, right? Even a physiotherapist is, uh, problem solve for people, right? Yeah. Your body is broken, you know, you come in and then you fix it, right? Yeah. You are specialist, but you, you combine skills of you learning people and maybe you like, you know, uh, you know, physiology, you know, and fixing things, right? And you fixing people makes you happy. Okay? Yeah. Visual therapies, right? Yeah. So why not try, try out, right? And then from there you say, okay, I need to go to school. I need do this. Right? But of course it's very dangerous to say, okay, I'll, my, it's not dangerous, right? It's a conditioning from, from, from our, our. Uh, generation. I say that things are dangerous. I mean, come on. What's the words that can happen, right? Yeah. Right. You create a job, you go and do that physiotherapist for three years, right? Right. But, but of course, before you do that, you must make sure that there's something you like Now, you you expose yourself in the industry. Yeah. Talk to physiotherapist, right. Talk to people. I think finding out information is very important, right? Yeah. And, and listening to podcast online, right? Maybe after two months you go like, okay, logic, quite boring, then okay, maybe you shouldn't be doing that. Yeah. But the more you dig deeper into the field, the more, uh, interested you become. Yeah. Then maybe that's something you should consider. Yeah.

John Lim: 1:07:09

So I, I would um, sort of like summarize it in three things, right? Yep. That number one is, um, self-awareness is very important, so know more about ourself, right? And of course, there are many ways to find more about ourself. Uh, we can go talk about that next time. Part two, if ever there's a request for part two, and second part is interest, right? Also finding out like what you like. uh, but more importantly what you don't like first, because then you can eliminate what you don't like, uh, to find out what's out there. And it's also good to consider what you like. And once you're able to narrow down potential paths, uh, industries or roles, then scoping research, finding out more about this potential paths, uh, through different mediums, right? Talking to people in the industry, talking to friends who know people working in the industry, podcasts, videos, reading out my research, um, then that with more information, you can better decide whether that's in it for you or not. Correct. Correct. Yeah. Right.

Yao Hong: 1:08:02

Okay. But I mean, I know a typical person, how would they approach this? Right. Or that's quick. That definitely very risky, right? True. Can you ask me?

John Lim: 1:08:10

Yeah, true, true. I think maybe

Yao Hong: 1:08:13

my thinking.

John Lim: 1:08:15

of first, it depends on the individual. If someone is very socially extroverted, the career choice could be influenced by the friends, right. Everybody in personal banking making money. I also also go there, I should also try Yeah, gimme a job

Yao Hong: 1:08:28

following the, there you go.

John Lim: 1:08:32

There you go. And it could also be data influence would be family, right? Or my, I'm coming a family full of doctors, but I mean banking, you know, so maybe I should find a few. So inadequate at family gatherings, right? Um, so yeah, I think a lot of influencers that, that can happen. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I, I want to, I recently follow, I receive a question recently and I thought I want to incorporate that, um, in, in my interviews. Sure. Um, what does success look like to you currently?

Yao Hong: 1:09:03

Hmm. Success. I would say success change over time. Right. And for me now, we will be seeing some of this, uh, bets that I make work out in terms of career. Right. Then of course, some money reward is nice, but ultimately I, I, I would think that a decision, my life, my family is very important. Right. So if I fail at my family, then, then, uh, uh, you know, I can have a very successful career, but at home things are shit. Right. Then I think I feel so success will be balancing, you know, growing a family and then also having a very rewarding job. Right. That to me, will be success at this point in time.

John Lim: 1:09:44

Yeah. And if you were to recall yourself five years ago, uh, and 10 years ago, Hmm. Right? Um, five years ago, what were you doing? You

Yao Hong: 1:09:57

were probably in Statu way, right? yeah. So point successful. Let's make this startup work, man, Okay. Right. And, and still we are young in terms of, uh, in terms of family, I have never married or anything. And then it was like, yeah, just get this thing going. Let's see why we can

John Lim: 1:10:14

go. Yeah. And if I track this further, 10

Yao Hong: 1:10:16

years ago, 10 years ago, I just wanna be rich, man. I wanted to be rich, I be a millionaire. I wanted to, you know, aire. And that was actually, uh, mistake I made. I would say I spent maybe a bit of time on that. Mm-hmm. right? Uh, I think I was rein informed probably because of family, right? That, you know, money was very, very, very, very important. I mean, money is important, but it cannot be the driver, right? So I would say that my path into trading was because I was purely driven by riches, right? In the sense that I wanted to be insanely rich, right? I wanna make a lot of money. And, and because, uh, it became so-called my God in a sense, right? Where I am very. Wake up in the morning. First thing I think is about money. I go to sleep. I think about money, right? And then it causes you to get very blinded. Cause, um, having worshiping money in a sense didn't allow me to, to choose the correct path, I would say Yeah. In life. Right? And not, not, I mean, I mean the meaning it was has been full, fuller. Like for now what I'm doing I think is very meaningful, right? Helping companies, uh, helping, uh, within the company itself or building product itself and, and benefiting a lot of people through their lives, right? Like by time, essentially. Right. Building a product that has touched hundred of thousands of people's lives, right? Changing their perspective on, on investing itself, right? That, to me is very meaningful. Yeah, my, my

John Lim: 1:11:40

included, huh? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. was my first robot advisor that I use. And I, I thought I really like the user interface, um, yeah. And the philosophy behind it, so, so yeah. So I thank you for that. Thanks, man. Yeah, no, anything you wanna build on, like, like success five years ago, 10 years ago, and now how

Yao Hong: 1:11:57

does it change across? No, I think, yeah, I think some, I mean, your life changes, right? Family situation changes. Uh, you also get older, not so much energy, you can't just keep running all the time. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I guess, yeah, that's it. Yeah.

John Lim: 1:12:11

What's one thing that you did on your own terms, right, um, for example, and embarking on something or making a decision that was super difficult, drastic, unpopular, or even like phase opposition from your own loved ones, or even.

Yao Hong: 1:12:25

Yeah, I would say that, uh, you know, I did a lot of things on my, so, right. I know advice, uh, wish, maybe it was probably earlier to go into trading, right? Yeah. And then going into business and all that. Uh, it was very difficult, I would say. Right? Not a part I would, uh, suggest to everyone, but I say that, uh, I wouldn't have done it any other way because my, my makeup is right, my programming is right. I always tend to choose a bit more unconventional just to see how things go. Right. And I guess end of day, know as long as I'm happy and no regrets. Right. I think most importantly, right, that, that motto is having no regrets in life. Yeah. Spot, right? I, yeah. I, I think, uh, like if I didn't go through that trading thing, right, I would probably be thinking like, oh man, what if I became a trader? Maybe I would be. very successful at it. Right. But because I did earlier on in my life, you know, I have done it before, so I'm know that, okay. Maybe not full-time right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Spot on. My, my skillsets can be done in something else. Yeah.

John Lim: 1:13:31

Yeah. No spot on. I'm a hundred percent conquer, uh, with that. Um, I mean, no regrets in life is a big part of my mission statement as well. I think I always wanted to try my hands up being entrepreneur. I did that, I did laser tech business thing, although that was unconventional. Yeah, yeah. Like what hell you, I told everyone, right. I didn't like ms. Right. I didn't like real guns. Yeah. Am expect turned down playing fake guns. Right. And, and yeah. So I just thought I wanted the right experience and, and, and yeah, I spot on. And this podcast as well, I always been talking about wanting to do something like that to sort of give back. And I, I mean, regardless of how this works out, I don't wish to be, I don't have any. ambition to be famous or rich through the podcast, but I want to have material to give back, right. To people who are going through the same paths that you and I have gone through ourselves. Yeah. So, so yeah. I think sometimes, I mean, I hear this question at this thing, right? If not now, then when. Right. And, and and exactly. One of the, one of the lines that I heard in a podcast was, um, was about the, the best time is always right. Fucking now, you know, So, um, my last question to you would be, what's one book, movie, YouTube video podcast you found yourself recommending it to others recently and why?

Yao Hong: 1:14:49

Hmm. I think books probably have a lot of books, uh, depending on situation again, right? Sure.

John Lim: 1:14:55

Recently recommending to others

Yao Hong: 1:14:57

recently, Thinking, right? Like mental models, uh, cause we, we are faced to just every day, right? How do you think better, right? Yeah. We didn't even talk much about that, but yeah. So, uh, I don't have it here. Uh, right. There's block is okay, but some, some things are B extreme, so I wouldn't recommend to everyone. Sure. Right. Cause some people will critique it. I think just starting from, um, the mental models by Shin Parish, right? Uh, they put itself right. It, it is a very good summary of different ways of thinking and ding problems, right? Going down from first principles or second first order, second order thinking, right? Third order thinking, right? Very simple things like this, or outcome, right? I think being able to think better will help us, uh, in a lot of things in life. Yeah. Got it.

John Lim: 1:15:45

Yeah. I'll definitely put it in the show notes. Thanks. Um, that's all the time we have. thank you very much for your time, Yahoo.

Yao Hong: 1:15:52

Yeah. Thanks man. Uh, hopefully

John Lim: 1:15:57

Let's make it happen. Let's make it happen.

Yao Hong: 1:15:58

Yeah, thanks.