17. Building No Harm Done, Uprooting his life and Management Consultant career in Europe to Yishun in Singapore and Reducing Social Isolation with Simon Lieberum

It is one thing to have a career change. It is another to do it while you're uprooting your life to move to another country with no social network. It is one thing to start a business. It is another to start a social enterprise where you're chasing other outcomes other than just financial sustainability. Simon Lieberum has done all of the above. 

If you are curious about sustainability and social enterprises, this episode is for you. And if you love local Singaporean kopi, you're in for a treat (scroll down).

Simon Lieberum is the Founder and CEO of No Harm Done, a social enterprise which sells Nespresso-compatible coffee pods which are biodegradable. What makes No Harm Done and their coffee pods unique is that the coffee pods are organic, vegan and 100% plastic-free. The coffee pods and packaging are compostable and the coffee beans are sourced from sustainable partner farms around the world.

But what I really love is that No Harm Done does the Singapore local coffee - the Kopi O - so damn good! Kopi-O refers to black Singapore local coffee (also known as Nanyang coffee) with no milk.

Before Simon started No Harm Done, he led a jet-setting career in Europe being a Management Consultant at Accenture. And from flying around Europe suited up and carrying a laptop with beautiful powerpoint slides, he landed in Singapore and ended up working in a family-owned business which sells plastic packaging to FnB brands.

This podcast episode was recorded in Nov 2022.

Use special promo code ONMYOWNTERMS on No Harm Done (click on the link) to receive a special 20% discount. Limited time offer.

Timestamps:
(02:08) Well-kept secret
(06:14) No Harm Done
(13:44) Why make it organic and plastic free
(22:31) Management Consulting
(26:16) From Europe to Yishun in Singapore
(29:11) No technical background
(29:59) The hardest part
(34:02) Lessons learnt
(35:50) Hiring 65 years old and above
(39:04) Kopi for a Cause

Disclosure: When you purchase through links on the podcast, I may earn an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. Thank you for supporting this podcast.

Chapters

• 2:08 Well-kept secret
• 6:14 No Harm Done
• 13:44 Why make it organic and plastic free
• 15:14 Values-based goals
• 22:31 Management Consulting
• 28:16 From Europe to Yishun in Singapore
• 29:11 Starting No Harm Done with no technical background
• 29:59 The hardest part
• 31:05 Respect for sales people
• 34:02 Lessons learnt
• 35:50 Hiring 65 years old and above
• 37:52 Hiring as a young company
• 39:04 Kopi for a Cause
• 40:35 Support No Harm Done

Transcript

John Lim: 0:02

Hi, my name is John, and I'm the host and producer of this podcast with the purpose to help you make the most of your career to live your best life. In this podcast, we'll be hearing from unconventional career switches and risk-takers and discuss all things career. We hope you get to gain perspectives, inspiration, and actionable insights to live life on your own turns. Jumping into today's conversation, if you're passionate about coffee and sustain, You gonna love this episode? Our guest today is the founder and c e o of, uh, Noha Dun, a social enterprise which sells espresso compatible coffee pots, which are biodegradable. What makes Noha Dun and the coffee pots unique is that the coffee pots are organic. Vegan and a hundred percent plastic free. The coffee pots and packaging are compostable, and the coffee beans are sourced from sustainable partner farms around the world. But what I really love is that no ham done does the Singapore local coffee, the coun so damn good. Coun refers to Plaque Singapore local coffee, also known as na. With have no milk. Now, coming back to our guests before he started, no ham done, he led a jet setting career in Europe, being a management consultant at Accenture and from flying around in Europe, suited up and carrying a laptop with beautiful PowerPoint slacks. I'm quite sure he landed in Singapore. And ended up working in a family-owned business, which, which sells packaging to f and b brands, originally from Germany, a father of two beautiful children, and obviously a huge fan of Copio. Welcome to the podcast, Simon Lium.

Simon Lieberum: 1:46

Thank you, John Simon. Thanks for having me. I'm my name not an easy one. Thank you. Thank

John Lim: 1:55

you. Looking for this. Um, yeah, before we start talking about, I think obviously we have quite a bit to dive into today. Uh, maybe you, and tell us a fun fact or a funny story about you or something that a lot of people don't know about you.

Simon Lieberum: 2:08

Something that a lot of people don't know about me for good reason because I keep it, keep it a secret, is, um, Well picture a scene where you meet your in-laws. I'm from Germany, so it's my, my Asian in-laws, uh, being somewhat conservative. For the first time within your own home country, uh, they're visiting. You want to go make a good impression, um, pick a nice location, uh, get everything right and then. End up the scene with me throwing up into the vine cooler on top of the, restaurant table. That is a rather, uh, obscure scene and actually, uh, describing it now. I still have to laugh about it, that that's remotely even possible. That that happened to me. Uh, yeah. I'm, I'm And what,

John Lim: 3:02

what happened? What, what happened? Like was it the food, was it the why that,

Simon Lieberum: 3:06

that you vomit? It was, it was, I mean, the story is a bit, has a few more angles to it. Well, they were the first time in Germany, so I thought, okay, let's, let's, um, create something memorable. So I'm not sure if you're familiar with it. It's called, the concept is called Dining in the Dark. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. So it's a visually impact, people creating a restaurant at atmosphere where you can't see, and it's, I mean, it's, it's magnificent. It's really amazing. But me be having like a, I just flew in. I still was in my work suit. I was stressed. And then in this environment where you, you don't see a thing, right? It's pitch black. Obviously that's the whole idea of it. I got extremely claustrophobic and I felt it was going down the drain and and, and then the food came, you know, oh, I was sweating bullets and it was just getting worse. I said, okay, there's this point of no return. I need to get out. But how do you get out if you don't see anything Yeah. So I was calling for the waiter to help me. Obviously. They know their way around, they have to skill. Um, I didn't, but by the time the waiter was there, it was too late. And, you know, fishing around in the dark the only thing I could find on the table was the wine cooler. So that was then the object of, uh, of desire and, uh, ended up vomiting into that wine cooler And, Extremely unpleasant also for everyone else dining there because the moment your, the sense of vision is taken from you, your other senses Yeah. Peak quite a fair bit. So everyone was Yeah. Really hearing me, uh, Yeah. Me, uh, finishing up this dining experience. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah.

John Lim: 5:00

In Singapore, but married, we have this

Simon Lieberum: 5:02

and, uh, you know,

John Lim: 5:06

In Singapore, we have this local expression, where we someone vomits. We call it the ion. Okay. So I'm sure you know the mian statue, right? Yeah. So, so, so, uh, so you did a mian in Germany with your first dinner in Germany with your potential or future parents-in-law Yes. Who are conservative. Okay.

Simon Lieberum: 5:25

Absolutely.

John Lim: 5:26

Well, at least you got a final job done. You, you, you married your wife in the end, so, Yeah. That didn't matter that much. Uh, ultimately,

Simon Lieberum: 5:34

yeah. Yeah. They knew what they were getting into after that

John Lim: 5:39

your, they got to know you inside out. Right. That's,

Simon Lieberum: 5:42

that's why. Nice. Yeah. Nice way of putting it. Yep. Absolutely.

John Lim: 5:47

Yeah. Um, knowing the little that I know about you and your, and your, uh, career path, I thought you would make interesting guests and I thought you had something to share, uh, for the audience today. And, uh, but first of all, I wanna definitely more about no harm done, right? I think, uh, I, I did the research about your brand, no Harm Done, and I hope I did justice to your brand by giving that description. But tell us more about Noha. Done.

Simon Lieberum: 6:08

Yeah, sure. I, I love speaking about Noha. Done. There's really. Something's close to the heart. So no Hamdan's been around for, four years now. We had a few iterations, really letting the market teach us to the level of where we are right now. Uh, the idea of no Hamdan is to offer a at home Experie. and at the same time on a business label to be, an alternative to, um, Western idea of coffee is mostly Nestle and espresso, being imported from the west in very unsustainable packaging. So our products are fully compostable. We have plastic free business. All our coffees are Asian coffees. It's really Asian taste centric. So we have copy jam inspired beverages. So our classic, copy oil. We have Thai iced tea. In two weeks time we are launching a variation of different, KO drinks, like, uh, chocolate Co, Guam ko. So very exciting, stuff coming up. And on the cafe coffee side of things, we have, uh, coffees that. Cater to Asian taste being less fruity and less acidic as, uh, western copies often are, and more towards a very bold and robust and, uh, darker roast, uh, taste profile.

John Lim: 7:36

Yeah, not to cut you short, uh, just for context. So those who are not living in Singapore, uh, COUM is like a local, uh, coffee shop, where it's very localized and the coffee that are being served in a coum, it's very much, that's what, uh, someone has mentioned very localized Asian kind of coffee, less fruity, less acidic, uh, compared to western coffee or coffee that you get in Starbucks. Okay. And, uh, yeah. Anything else? Sorry, I, I didn't mean to cut.

Simon Lieberum: 8:01

I mean, something that people ask me a lot, uh, something that I would be curious to hear from myself is maybe how I got into this, I mean many of us I think are quite interested in, in entrepreneurship or even social entrepreneurship, but where do you start? How do you come up with an idea, right? So, uh, for me, in this. it was really coming to Singapore and, I, I love being here that, that upfront. I really love being here. I love the people here. I love the country. Uh, I was really welcomed with open arms and provided, great, great opportunity to build something for myself and for my family. So I really owe a lot to this country. And one of the things, um, I mean that really stands out in Singapore. The mix of cultures here and along with culture comes food and beverages, and so I, I fell for the Kopi culture. I can vividly recall how I walked into a uh, for the first time. And then, you know, you go to the food stall and they have all these drinks with jelly grass and Michael Jackson and I didn't understand anything, uh, And, uh, so in my attempt, uh, to get a caffeine fixed, I walked up to the auntie and told her that I, I wanted, and ice latte to go and uh, that's basically copy c p right? Uh, in the plastic packet. You get it here. And that was for me, it was like seeing a spaceship. I just fell for it. Yeah. Head over heels. Uh, ever since then, been a copy lover. And something that stood out to me was, that the moment you step away from the hawker, you step away from the street. Seemingly really integral part of, of society and of of cultural identification gets lost. And, uh, you step into, you know, workplaces, hotels, people's homes, and all you see everywhere is the same espresso machines, the same do coffees, um, imported from the west and. I was just wondering, you know, what happens to, to Asia's rich beverage and coffee and tea culture the moment you leave those kind of cultural heritage places and step into the so-called modern world. But what you see on every corner and in on every shelf is really those espresso products. And you see George Clooney's face everywhere. I mean, there's enormous amounts of advertising dollars put into this concept of almost like reeducating Asian taste. And it gets this undertone that really bugs me, where you get this vibe that if you do have some sort of class or some kind of self-respect, then Western Coffee is the way to. and Asian, Asian coffees and Asian beverages kind of get pushed into this three and one coffee, instant coffee cheap corner. And I didn't like that. And looking at to tho at those places that surf, uh, an espresso coffee and, you know, chatting people up, just asking them are many expressed the need or the the wish. Traditional Asian beverages or copy as an option, but alternatives were just not available in a convenient format. Um, so people would still go to the and we don't wanna change yet. Right? You go to the because you meet someone, you have a chat. Obviously that is something we are not touching, that's not our area of business. But we wouldn't provide an alternative to, let's say you go to work and you wanna have a coffee, and you don't necessarily have to. you know, nest less idea of coffee. You can still have an Asian beverage or an Asian idea of coffee just needs to be available. So that's where we came in and say, Hey, we can supply that. That's a, a great product we can create and we can actually offer it in a, in a format that is sustainable and that fits the, the Southeast Asian or the Asian context. Because Asia, by no means is, is in any way equipped with dealing with all these single use aluminum and plastic. And, uh, there's a reason why, you know, 81 of percent of Asian, uh, sorry, of, of ocean pollution comes from Southeast Asian rivers. These are very, uh, dramatic numbers. So yeah, here we are offering the counter a counter alternative to those products.

John Lim: 12:44

Yeah. So what I'm hearing is that you've been here for a while, right? I think 10 years now, right? 10 years by now, yes. Yes. In s. Yeah. And then you, you fell in love in the country. You feel that you owe it a lot to this country. And you, you, you are one that, um, are into the local culture. You, you bought a local coffee and you realize that's a from the It's a big thing in local culture. But then when we, or when people in Singapore enter their homes, and you see that espresso is very popular and you see all this western culture or western kind of coffee being available at home and that's why you wanted to. The local copo to be made readily available to be enjoyed at home. That's why you wanna create that coum experience at home. But my, my question is, you could have easily done that, right? Like making local coffee flavors available or in an espresso coffee pot, but you didn't have to make it organic or plastic. So why, I know you talked to me about ocean waste. And, and a full up to that would be, wouldn't you make your life or your entrepreneur venture a lot more complicated and challenging just to add that social sustainability or social enterprise element to it?

Simon Lieberum: 13:56

Uh, yes. A lot more complicated. Uh, absolutely. But it also at the same time, makes. a lot more worthwhile and a lot more fulfilling. Um, so yeah, I mean, especially the, the packaging component. The moment you do not touch plastic or aluminum, things get really difficult and complex in terms of shelf life. So, yeah, that, that, that was definitely, uh, a tough learning, uh, along the journey and many, many batches we had to recall cuz something went wrong with a product that couldn't be kept fresh and so on. And then on the other hand, you have, things that really stand out that come from this, like the people that we work with, the seniors that we hire. Form our team here, uh, the support that we get because people understand why we do it and the social mission that we wanna drive. Yeah, I, I guess it's a very personal decision, but for me, I can say it was absolutely worthwhile and, uh, going to work, feels much more like an enjoyable. uh, than something, you know, I, I just need to get done in order to feed, uh, feed my wallet, basically.

John Lim: 15:14

Was there any big thing that happened or what caused you to start a business like that with this green element to it?

Simon Lieberum: 15:22

I think pretty early on in my career, I kind of noticed already that something was missing, um, in my first stop being, uh, working in, uh, strategy consulting. I mean, that, that has its perks for sure and can be a very fulfilling job for many. For me, it's somehow, I don't know, the, the benefits were off pretty quickly. And, uh, Somewhat empty with it. So later on in my career I was quite interested in the, the whole concept of having value-based goals, rather than just goals. Um, you know, how much you wanna own, how much you wanna achieve, but something that has a bit more substance and really connects to the cost and the things. are meaningful to you in life. I mean, it, it sounds very airy fairy, but once you put it on paper and execute based on that, it, it feels very different. Maybe a very lame, lame comparison could be, you know, how someone can, you know, a weight lifter can lift X amount of killers of weight if they train all their life. But then sometimes in the news you hear these miracle stories, you know, where someone has an accident and you know, your kid is squeezed in the car and, and then all of a sudden the mother can open the door of a, of a damaged car. These kind of things. I mean that, that's an extreme example and it's not exactly the same, but the moment things that really matter to you are woven into your goals, things really change and work becomes easy. I feel the hard part about entrepreneurship also becomes easier to endure because you always have this feeling like, okay, this didn't work out okay. I'm still not earning. Okay, we are still not profitable. But regardless of all of those things, what we do here is worthwhile because we serve something bigger than that. I find that a very, it's a very powerful source of, of motivation and energy.

17:29

Hi, hope you're enjoying the episode so far. I'm interrupting my own episode to tell you that this podcast has launched a newsletter. If you'd like to receive bonus content from this podcast and topics on career change and growth, consider subscribing to our email newsletter. Link is in the episode description. Now back to the episode.

Simon Lieberum: 17:48

Yeah.

John Lim: 17:49

Um, kudos to you. Kudos to people like you who have, this vision and who work hard and at the same time meet certain significant risks, in your life to pursue that vision, for the benefit, of the earth. Um, so, so kudos to you and tell us more about the business. How has it been? Right? When do you start it? And how's it doing now?

Simon Lieberum: 18:15

We started in 2018, and it was just something I was very passionate about. Um, but I did not have the, let's say, the guts to, to go all in. So I did it, uh, almost a bit like a side project for two years. and, as it is with things that you do half-hearted, they don't really fly. So it took me, I think that was mostly a journey of like developing myself and, and growing into the role, until 20, early 2021, I would say, when I personally felt ready to, to take that step and to take that risk. And ever since then, things really changed dramatically. We have rebranded, uh, quite recently. We have changed the entire profile. We have changed our, the products that we offer. We have changed the angle to the business. Before it was very clear to see that there is a certain group of buyers that is very open and interested and eco-friendly. Very open to buy eco-friendly products even at a higher price. But what does that mean for your business? And we've noticed that we can serve those customers very well. They're not price sensitive, but your, our impact was very limited. I mean, it's, it's nice to have a perfect product, but the impact on the planet is very little if you just surf this eco. And so we did that as a change also to become a mass market product and at least in a Singapore context. So yeah, we've, we've been through the, a few alterations itself and restarted, I would say, I mean, we just rebranded and really restarting now, into the maas product segment. So we are going into hotels now. Into cold storage supermarkets and so on. So these are really big breakthroughs for us, and very interesting learnings also. Yeah.

John Lim: 20:31

Yeah. So yeah, there was, I'm sure in the beginning there was, product development to keep refining a product. And as you mentioned, you went through a few, iterations and, I heard about the distribution, right. And, and I think distribution and product development can be very different things. You can make a very good product, but, I think fmcg, uh, fast moving consumer goods, or even, food. A lot depends on distribution. Sometimes it's the fact that people buy certain brands or certain things because they're readily available at the channels that they frequently, uh, go to rather than the quality of the products. So, tell us where can one get, no ham done coffee in.

Simon Lieberum: 21:07

Yeah. If you wanna order from your home, you can, uh, head to our website, uh, nok.com. You will definitely get the best deals there. Highly recommended also our subscription. So it comes with a free countertop tin that nicely decorates your kitchen. And then you get, depending on your frequency, let's say monthly, packaging free refills from. That go nicely into your countertop. 10. Other than that, you can find us on Shopee and Lazada and if you wanna go, to a shop, then, from December on, you can find us in all code storage store. Cool. Cool. Storage,

John Lim: 21:50

right? For supermarket, right? Yes,

Simon Lieberum: 21:52

Absolut.

John Lim: 21:55

Very cool. Unfortunately I don't live any near cool storage, but it is good news for you. Uh, I do shop on shop in Lada and the one I bought, the computer I bought from you was on your website. So, and, uh, and for the audience listening in, there will be a special promotion or code that you can use on Newham, Dan's website. Just check out the, episode description and, next segment of this conversation. I want to dig. uh, into your career change journey. So from how I see it, there are two parts of this. Number one is you were from a jet setting, management consultant to, your ST at this. Family owned business that does packaging. First of all, tell us more about management consulting. And I ask that with the context that I know it's quite prestigious. It's always on par with being a banker. At least from where I graduated from, as a business student, it was either gonna be a investment banker or management consulting. And now that I, I've joined this sort of tech sector, I realize that a lot of tech sectors or tech startups like to recruit people who are ex management consultants. Tell us a bit more about that scene, and what you did when you were a

Simon Lieberum: 22:58

management consultant. Happy to share, I studied, economics and, kind of going through those years and, mixing with that crowd, I, I can share a very similar experience to, to what you just shared. I think that was everyone's, idea of getting, you know, success. That was the idea of success. So you can be an investment banker or you become a strategy consultant. And you know, you hear all these shiny stories about McKinsey guys wearing expensive suits and flying around the world, and, you get all these, benefits and points and diamond memberships and whatnot. And to some extent that that holds true. So that's what I went for. I didn't make. McKenzie cut But, I ended up, uh, with Accenture and I was in the utilities segment, which was not my most favorite area, I have to say. I spent three years there. I mean, the team was great. Um, the, I guess for corporate setting, the company. Is somewhat great, has a very energetic, positive spirit. Colleagues are helpful. There's a lot of incentives offered. You know, you really get to travel a lot. They fly you to the US for trainings. A lot of benefits that feel really good, especially when you come outta uni. Mm-hmm. uh, I definitely enjoyed that for a while. But I didn't. Other than that, or just purely work-wise, I feel it didn't really match where I would like to see myself in, let's say, five or 10 years down the road. And, I always felt like, okay, I'm, I'm gonna be an entrepreneur at some point in my life. Back in the days it wasn't called entrepreneur, at least the term wasn't so, so popular. But I thought, okay, I inevitably I'm gonna do my own things. Mm-hmm. And so the three years there were probably a good training, uh, no feelings, but it didn't really, I mean, three years was enough, definitely enough, and. I remember at some point I thought, okay, maybe I can do what I want to do within the company. Mm-hmm. And so I tried to like sell my own projects to clients, uh, and things like that. But, it didn't really work out. Or rather, it wasn't, it wasn't so welcomed as I expected it to be. Mm-hmm. And so for me, that was a point where I said, okay. how I see myself doing things and the level of growth and flexibility that I would be comfortable with to kind of reach my own potentials and not just fit into the shape of what they, need their employees to be, for their business model to work. There was just no match anymore. And then it was time for me to go and

John Lim: 26:08

from Europe to. Industrial building sitting in UNE Singapore. How

Simon Lieberum: 26:14

did that happen? Yeah, that was, that was quite a jump indeed. Uh, my wife is Singaporean. We met here, I I was in Singapore in 2010 to do an study exchange. So we met at the university here and, uh, which one can I ask? Uh, it was, uh, a program Singapore, Australia. it's an Australian university. It's called James Cook University. So I have a tiny Singapore campus and I was here for six months to study and then moved on to Australia, but, uh, six months enough to, fall in love. And, it's, it's the same wife that, uh, I later on managed to throw up in the wine cooler. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, uh, she, so you moved here for. I moved to fell love. Yes. Basically that's it. Nice. She wasn't done with her studies. My wife is a psychologist, clinical psychologist. So she wasn't done with her studies and uh, we did long distance for three years. It was incredibly hard, you know, when you talk about six, seven hours time difference. And then working in consulting, always being on planes, working till midnight. I was just a horrible, incredibly hard. And so yeah, it's after three years, I, I decided, okay, if we wanna make this work, this is the time, time and place to do it. So I moved to Singapore and mm-hmm uh, didn't really think this through, to be honest. I thought, okay, if I quit management consulting, then now is the time to become an entrepreneur. But just. Saying I'm gonna be one you don't really secure an income, or, you know, you don't have real ideas yet, you don't have, um, anything to begin with. So I came to Singapore and initially the idea was just to join my wife's family business for a while, until I could figure out what I'm gonna. because, I mean, you need to be working to, you know, to get a, a visa and so on. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, I want a genuine visa. I'm going to work. So, just joined the family business and, um, Yeah. It was very different. I can tell you that. Yeah.

John Lim: 28:34

I can't imagine. Yeah. Yeah. And you could have been the first German guy that the saw, you know, uh, back then. Yeah. Uh, So, yeah. And then, so you, you spent some, you spent some time there, and then you started a newham done. I, I figured, figured that, as you mentioned earlier, 2018, it started off as a site project. Yeah. And then early 2021, you went in full. Right. When you pivoted from the family business, the packaging business to no harm done, and now that you told us that you, you did your school and economics, so I figured there wasn't any sort of engineering in your education, right?

Simon Lieberum: 29:11

That is correct. Yeah. I have, no skills whatsoever with everything technical.

John Lim: 29:18

And maybe I'm presumptuous, but I figured that if you, at a point in time when you decided to start no harm done with the version that you had to make sure that it's, uh, a hundred percent eco-friendly. Yeah. Uh, I will believe that having some knowledge of, materials will be very helpful to at least kickstart that business. And, how was the learning curve like when you sort of either. trying no harm done as a site project or that full, jumping in a hundred percent, how was the learning curve like, and with that, how do you learn things that you didn't know but was needed to kickstart the business? Yeah. So yeah, we can walk through us what worked with us those times that you had. Yeah,

Simon Lieberum: 29:59

I think that's a great question. Thanks for that. Um, looking back, I think the main or the steepest learning curve was. Me coming to Singapore, coming to Asia and joining the family business, having, basically not knowing anyone. So there's no network to rely on. And you don't really see how important that is until you don't have it anymore. It's something we always take for granted. People, you can ask for this, people you can ask for. uh, common things, you know, just having someone to discuss your ideas. Uh, if all is down to zero, it gets quite tricky. Then, being in an area, uh, in, in that case it was packaging where it had absolutely no prior knowledge. And then being in a market space, uh, selling products or consulting about products, where I wasn't familiar with the clients either. uh, that was tough. That was a lot of learning. An enormous effort I would call it. It's really tough. With my previous consulting experience, I had a kind of a solid self-confidence that I can get things done, and then I came here and almost hit a wall and, uh, where I maybe prior I used. Not see sales people on the same level. Now, having gone through this experience, I have much respect for the hard work they put in and treat, treat them very differently now. Like even if it's, you know, the sixth insurance company knocking my door this week, you know, you can always, find some respect for the hard work they're put in. And. Yeah, you can still smile when you say no. I think that that's really, that was a tough time where I was just, I mean, at the end of the day I was sitting here with a telephone book Yeah. And, and bringing up companies Yeah. And trying to acquire new customers and just getting from no to, no to know. And I wasn't used to that. Um, yeah, for sure. That, that was, that was intense. So that was where my main learning really. um, yeah. How to bridge that to the, to the startup world. I think it is just a, that is a continuous effort to just constantly, I think get outta your own comfort zone and just ask people that know it better than you, and then I just see how they do it and let them teach me. Yeah.

John Lim: 32:42

I think when I first met you, I, I thought you were quite grounded. I thought you were quite soft-spoken. Uh, of course being soft spoken I think could be your personality. Um, and uh, when I heard that you were a ex management consultant, like your soft-spoken nurse and your groundedness didn't really resonate, With the impression of being a ex management consultant. So now that I hear this part of the story, then I think I can draw the link. Um, because there was a time where you kept getting nos, right? And there was a time when you first rooted your whole life to come to Asia to work in, uh, industrial building in Issu, in Singapore. it was a, a life changing experience and something that you're not used to. So, so I, I think that's, that's, at least that's my impression. Right. And I want to, sort of switch gears a bit into the next part about, some reflections. I think you did something drastic, not just changing career, but also changing your entire life, right? You uprooted yourself to come to a place where you have no friends or no network. And then you really could have been very comfortable being in a family business, but you went on to do something that you would call your vision, right, to pursue that eco-friendly business. Is there any big. Reflection or lesson that now you look back that you would like to share with the audience?

Simon Lieberum: 34:02

I think for me, the main part is really to sit down and understand what my values are. I guess it, it's really hard to hear this and it sounds so airy fairy, but especially when you are in a corporate career or in a, in some busy day-to-day activities right now. But it makes such a difference. I don't see, the family business as really something dramatically different. I see that as, almost like a stepping stone. It didn't really change my idea of where I want to go. It was just one step necessary for me to. um, to kind of get out of the corporate world, I guess, and I mean everyone at their own pace. And when I was in management consulting, I was not there yet to say, okay. I, I felt confident or strong enough to say I put myself out there, uh, with the risk of failing, you know, with the risk of, in my head, with the risk of, getting nowhere in life. being judged by others, for not being successful. These things used to matter to me a lot and were hindering me. So I mean, much respect to those who can just, you know, do it and die, fall in. But I needed this step in between to kind of develop myself there and, it felt like that was an okay option to say, okay, I'm stepping out of. High gloss, perfect TV career path by still have somewhat security there and, kind of some sort of space to move in, at least not being completely without any, anything holding of, of framing the direction.

John Lim: 35:50

I wanna ask about hiring, I think for Hamdan, or at least in the family business, I am sure you have like, have at least experienced, hiring. Yeah. Other people. How's it been? Any thoughts on the younger generation or on the generation that you kind.

Simon Lieberum: 36:07

We hire, uh, 65 years and above. Um, nice. Very nice. So yeah, it's, it's very different. Why do we do that? I think that's part of our social profile. There are a lot of people out there, um, that still have to work. At an older age. And, I take pride to some extent in being able to offer them a work environment where it's very positive, very friendly, uh, kindness. It's very important. It's not stressful, it's not hectic. It doesn't matter how well you. Um, you know how many boxes you can, you can carry at one time. So we try to create workspaces that are comfortable and where people feel good and, yeah, it, it just seems to be a match with that generation. They identify with a copy product. You can see that in a good spirit. Um, uh, and that makes up for a lot of it. That really makes up for a lot of it. I don't, I don't see ourself as. Being a productivity failure here, we get our stuff done and we get our products out on time to the customers and we pack with, um, with care and passion and with love for the product. And I mean, that's, that's what matters at the end of the day. Yeah.

John Lim: 37:32

Yeah. Hearing that really warm my heart. Um, and how's it, like hiring as a startup, right? I would, I mean, I dunno whether you cross for a startup, but I, I would think, at least for a young company. Right. Do you find yourself that it's challenging? How is it like to, is it hard to convince people to join a company when, when you don't have that much of track record versus other, like, SMEs or

Simon Lieberum: 37:55

out there? I would say yes. I cannot fully judge whether that's my personal difficulty cuz I'm the one hiring and interviewing or whether that's a general, situation. There are probably others that are really gifted with this HR topic and they will perform much better than me. I had, a difficult time, definitely quite recently. I was, looking for a job position in, as a marketing lead. and I couldn't find someone that, that I saw filling this position over the next years. And so I ended up hiring an agency, which is okay for me. They're doing a fantastic job. It's still in Singapore, you know, I still, it leads to employment and work done here within the country, so that's perfectly fine. But, wouldn't say that's my, my strong suit and, yeah. I didn't, I don't find it that easy. Whereas on our operations team where we hire the seniors, that that just flows. I don't know. Mm-hmm. that comes naturally. We have regular, social events where we, serve copy and we call it copy for a cause. In Singapore there is, amongst the population of the elder, There is a group where people, I mean, everyone's taken care of by the government to some extent, but there's certain aspects where the government cannot really do that much. Yeah. When people fall under this cluster called social isolation, and that is, if you look at the numbers for Singapore, that is one of the main drivers for suicide amongst the elderly. So we, host. weekly copy for a course gatherings where people, uh, can just come down under the block for a cup of coffee and, basically have a reason to get out of bed. Um, use their voice. If you don't talk to someone in weeks, it really gets to you, where they can be heard, where they can, you know, crack a joke, listen to some music. and if it, and for us it's just a cup of coffee that we put on the table and, uh, you know, a smile and organizing. So yeah, it's, it's, it's amazing how this little, can create so much value for them. So that's kind of the space in that we are moving and hiring then somewhat happens naturally because, you know, we in touch with so many elderly people and, when there's a job opening, it's, it's fairly easy to find people. That are eager to jump in and help out. So.

John Lim: 40:35

Any, uh, business plans that, no harm done's embarking on that you want to, give a special mention and shout out to the audience

Simon Lieberum: 40:42

here? I think for us as a business, It's really a big milestone that we managed to get our products on the shelf in cold storage. So, that's super exciting for us. So from December onwards, can just, uh, ask everyone who's listening to go out and support us. Try our new ko, uh, Cho Choco, go to cold storage and, give us your support. And in return, I can promise that. As always, for every cup of coffee that we sell, we serve someone in our community that really needs a friend and a cup of coffee, uh, a free cup.

John Lim: 41:25

Thank you very much Simon. Thank you for sharing us your, your live journey, and, and also sharing these exciting plans of Noha done and the wonderful work Noha done is doing for, for the world and for Singapore. So thank you once again for your time and we'll see you soon. Hopefully we can meet at the copy for a call

Simon Lieberum: 41:42

Monday. We should absolutely do that. Thank you so much for your time, John. Thanks for having me. Us. Thanks Simon. Thank

John Lim: 41:47

you, Simon. We speak soon.

Simon Lieberum: 41:48

Thanks. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

John Lim: 41:51

If you're enjoying this podcast so far, Kylie do us a big favor by subscribing and falling apart because wherever you're listening or watching this from Connie rate reveal and chat as podcasts, if you felt any of the episodes helpful. Lastly, I invite you to share with us your comments and feedback on this podcast. Let us know how we can do better. You can direct message me on LinkedIn. My profile is John Lim, C Y or email John Lim, C y@gmail.com. I will read and reply every one of your emails till then speak soon.