045 - Leadership on the Line: Utilizing Adaptive Leadership in a Rapidly Changing World

This episode discusses the key takeaways from Martin Linsky and Ronald Heifetz's book, Leadership on the Line. The concepts in this book could not be more relevant with the pace of change. As the way we work and live rapidly evolves, it will not only produce technical problems with straightforward solutions. Instead, the challenges we will face are adaptive, requiring a fundamental shift in how we do business and navigate our worlds.

Leadership on the line presents the dangers of leadership for those with the courage to take on the toughest adaptive challenges of our time. While these insights serve the highest levels of organizational and governmental leadership, they will apply to anyone striving to make changes in their communities, schools, families, or anywhere they'll face opposition from those wanting to maintain the way things are.

People resist change through very human motivations. Listen to learn how to meet them where they are and create shifts adopted in due time and last. You're brave enough to lead. Let these strategies support the difference you want to make in your world, big or small.

Buy on Amazon: Leadership on the Line: Staying Alive through the Dangers of Leading

Start putting these insights into practice, and let us know what you're experiencing with them. We'd love to hear your feedback and ideas for future episodes. Connect with us below!

Visit our WEBSITE  and work with us directly to bring the topics from this episode and more into your life and the lives of your people.

Other ways to connect:
The Present Professional | Instagram
Coach John Marshall | Instagram | LinkedIn | Facebook
Coach Tony Holmes | Instagram | LinkedIn

Thank you so much for listening and being a part of the community! Together, we're Producing Present Professionals. 

Transcript

Tony: You're listening to The Present Professional, where we explore the intersections of personal and professional development.

John: To change your experience of life and work with every episode.

Tony: So tune in, grab your notebook, and let's go. Let's go.

John: Welcome to another episode of The Present Professional. Today, we're here to unpack a good book on leadership that Tony and I had both read, and we think it's a different approach to most of the books that we've seen on leadership, and it's called Leadership on the Line, Staying Alive Through the Dangers of Leading. by Ronald Heifetz and Marty Linsky. The thing that is different about this book as it looks at specifically the dangers of leadership, and why and how is leadership dangerous and arduous, and how can you respond to these dangers? Then also, how do you keep your spirit alive when the going gets tough? provides a lot of realistic truths of things that you're going to run into when you're pushing or pulling to bring about adaptive change in any kind of community, whether it's an organization, a political hierarchy, your company, and anywhere that there's a one-up one-down approach that you'll see a lot of these responses to bringing about adaptive change in wherever you're bringing this to your people. So I think it's something that's critical for anyone that calls themselves a leader to take a look at this book.

Tony: And not even if you don't have an opportunity to read the book itself, it's really the principles that are so rich and good. And for you, like John said, if you call yourself a leader or if you find yourself in leadership roles or positions, or maybe you are a new leader in an organization or even starting entrepreneurship, It's really good to understand that leadership is dangerous. It really is not all the glitz and glamour that Instagram or Twitter or any social media app will tell you it is. It's actually very difficult and sometimes grueling and tiring. I think this book really gives not only the principles but then a lot of stories and examples that anyone can use and anyone can find to compare and contrast with where you are, what you're going through, or what you may and potentially will go through in the future. So I love it as well. It was recommended to me by someone that I have a lot of respect for, Dr. Ronnie Haggerty, and she's a great leader herself. And so I appreciated the recommendation and jumped at the opportunity and here we are. And I think that it's very timely as well. So hopefully you all can extract some of the principles we provide today and share with people you know.

John: Getting into the challenge, right? Why is leadership dangerous? And it's really the perils of adaptive change. that true leadership is bringing about, whether it's innovative change, whether it's changing something that is falling apart in an organization and bringing things back to baseline, you are coming in to lead something that is going to disrupt the status quo. And when that happens, you know, there are repercussions. There are reactions and people fundamentally. don't like change because we don't like uncertainty. There's a there's a there's a fair amount of certainty in the way that we're doing things today. Right. And when this comes where this change comes is actually looking at the problem itself. Right. And I love how they do this in the book where it's they break apart the problems into an adaptive problem and a technical problem. Now, when you have these adaptive and technical, it's really crucial to be able to identify which one the problem is, right? Because technical problems are easy to identify. You know, it's sometimes, you know, quick and easy solutions, you know, that can be solved by an authority, an expert. And, you know, maybe it just requires change in one or a few places. And sometimes it's contained, you know, within an organizational silo. Like maybe it's just in one business line, just one tool that someone's using, right? Just one process that's going to make things easier to understand, it's going to open up communication flow. And then those solutions can be implemented quickly. And truly, that's not where adaptive leadership comes into play. And now, adaptive challenges are very difficult to identify. I love the way that they emphasize this so much is that adaptive challenges require changes in values, beliefs, roles, relationships, and fundamental approaches to work. This could have been how people have been approaching work for a decade now. And you go to change the approach to work and how they're approaching work and their values and beliefs. And another thing is people with the problem do the work of solving it. I thought that was a really good part of it is how, you know, he talks about the leader taking on responsibility for being part of the problem and like that helping you. Level with the people that you know you're pushing through this adaptive change, right? So we'll get into a little bit more of. the resistance to that change. So we're talking a little bit more about why it's difficult right now. And then we'll talk a little bit more as we get into some of the resistance that you'll experience and going beyond your authority in causing people to change, bringing about uncertainty in people's lives, and then how to navigate that.

Tony: You know, I want to go back to that technical and adaptive piece, though, because you really have to look at society as a whole and see why that what you just said is so profound, because we are raised, you know, in K through 12 and post-secondary college and our education rather, which is college, graduate school. and it's very technical. Everything that we do is graded, data-driven, you learn this, you test it to see your knowledge, and then you get a grade on it. And then you transition into the workforce and then you have your performance reviews and you work every day and it's like projects come up, it's the same thing as taking a test almost or putting together a project in school, and all that's very technical, but the adaptive piece is really behavioral. we're never really taught how to manage our behavior. You know, that really comes from really home, like your home structure is where you learn and unlearn the behaviors that you showcase into society, into the real world. And so, you know, that is the key. And I think we talked about that on prior episodes with Richard Berry that specifically, you know, how you adapt, how your behavior can impact the rest of the world. And then I think about with this book that we're talking about today, it's like as a leader, you have to do the work of challenging your self-awareness and your adaptability and your ability to lead. Because you cannot expect your employees, subordinates, or even customers to have done that work that you're supposed to do as a leader or really just a good human. Like if you really wanted to excel as a person, self-awareness and doing that kind of work is so important. And so I just wanted to point that out because you brought it up. But it's so important to really even dive deeper, drive back around and really unpack that even more because adaptive people are the ones that are most flexible and sometimes the most likable. And as a leader, you know, you can argue that some people would say likability isn't important. as a leader, but I think it is. I think as a leader, if you're likable and adaptable, then you're able to work with many different types of people. You're able to do what the book says, see things from the balcony, and then get on the dance floor. I know you'll talk about that, but I just wanted to point that out as well. And I don't know if you had any comment on that before I go into a different subject, but I'll pass it back to you just in case.

John: Yeah, I think you brought up some really good points there. I think the one thing to bring up to add is that the number one failure in leadership, even just from their book, and I agree, is when people treat adaptive problems as technical problems, like trying to provide a technical solution to something that requires a shift in behavior and a shift in values. And that's when things get out of hand. That's when you have people basically trying to overthrow you as a leader. And we'll get into all of those specific dangers and how they show up. But you're right. Adaptive change is change in behavior. Another thing I want to point out is that is the place for coaching. Coaching is the psychology of behavior change. If you want to be the one leading adaptive change and you don't have a coach to be able to reflect your own behaviors to you, to be a mirror for The way that you're showing up, the way that your thoughts are being processed, are you reflecting this new set of values? Are you embodying them and is it showing up in your behavior? These are things that coaches will professionally get you to the place where you can be the example and lead adaptive change. So I just wanted to plug how important that is and that it's really one of the goals of coaching and the reason why the profession exists.

Tony: Yeah, that's so important and a great highlight. And, you know, one more piece is on adaptive leadership is think about your favorite leaders, right? Whether you actually know them or not and ask yourself, why do you like them so much? Why are they your favorite leaders? And again, a lot of it has to probably do with the fact that you can relate to them. And then you also see their adaptiveness in their characteristics, you know, even in their charisma and charisma, character, likeability, all that comes from individuals ability to relate to people and be adaptable in their in their persona. And so I just want to double down on that. So one piece I really, really like from the book was when the authors compared leadership to being a chef or cooking. And what he said was that leadership is about strengthening the pot. So imagine you're cooking. I like gumbo. So let's say you're making a gumbo, right? And leadership is about strengthening that pot. controlling the temperature, and knowing which ingredients to add and when. And I thought that was so important because you can imagine a person leading a company or leading a department or a small team and you have all these different personalities, you have all these different skills, and your ability or your focus as a leader is to strengthen the pod, strengthen the team, provide opportunity for people to come and bring their gifts and talents to work. And then you want to control the temperature because things will come up, you know, and you're working in, especially if you've ever worked in high pressure environments or a project with the deadline, you know, emotions come to play and how you help manage and navigate people through those times of uncertainty or even times of just people feeling anything. You know, they may feel like they're not being heard or people may feel like someone is overpowering the situation or someone's overpowering the team. When they bring that to you as the leader, your job is to control the temperature and help set that. And then also, sometimes you got to turn the temperature up. You know, on one end, you turn the temperature up could mean, hey, you know, bring that energy, you know, encouraging people and coaching people up right then and there saying, hey, You know, I see it in you. I think you just need to, you know, pivot this way or do it that way or bring that energy or what's going on with you? Are you okay? You know, asking certain questions to see why people's energy may be low. And then on the other side of that, you may need to turn people down. So I think controlling the temperature was just such a It's just a great part of that. And then last is knowing which ingredients to add. And sometimes knowing which ingredients to add could mean, hey, I got to take you out of the pot. I got to take you out of it. You're too spicy. You're spoiling the gumbo. Or maybe you're just spoiled. Maybe it's time for you to go. I mean, that's tough. But I mean, the reality is, If you use a spoiled ingredient in anything, you can ruin the entire dish. And so that happens with people too. And Gallup, I'm a Gallup strengths coach as well. And with Gallup, when we review organizations, what's called a Q12 survey, it's just a 12-question survey on organizational performance, behavior, and engagement. you know, a part of that results that we see is that in every organization, especially, well, every large, every organization with at least 50 people, how about that? There are people that are just actively disengaged. And those actively disengaged people are not going to change. They are spoiling the pot. And that may only be 5% or 6% of your organization. But if in that 5% or 6%, those people are actually leaders, or have leadership roles, or leadership titles, or even influence, that five or six percent can be huge because they are impacting other people and they can cause trauma and pain for people that are not even, you know, feeling how they feel, but because of their act of disengagement, they're causing a ruckus or they're causing problems. So I just want to point that out too with the navigating that pot, controlling that temperature, knowing which ingredients to add and when, so crucial to leadership.

John: And just to comment on the temperature, you know, and like increasing engagement and, you know, knowing when to amp up the team, knowing when to draw back a little bit and, you know, being able to also be the example of that. is when you're not just guiding the team to be engaged, to take rest, but also to embody that yourself, is are you prioritizing time with your family? Are you prioritizing the things that you need to do to keep your energy up? and how are you showing that to your team? I've seen leaders take care of themselves in ways that are really supportive, yet at the same time, they want their team to see this image of just hard work all the time. That can be a big mistake is not showing your team how you turn down the temperature and how you turn up the temperature. is like being transparent and authentic and the way that you navigate turning up and down the temperature is. Crucial to being able to control what's in the park being able to amplify what's in the park and you know when you're creating engagement. it's all about understanding their motivations, right? How do you get your team connected to the vision, the purpose of turning up the heat? Because that's the thing is, we can go into a session or a meeting and rah-rah, right? And cheer on the team, we're excited, let's get excited, but why? Why why should we turn up the heat? Like getting to the why and the purpose behind it is like that's how you keep the heat on, right? Not just not just throwing, you know, not just throwing fuel on the fire real quick. and then letting it burn out. But it's getting to the deeper motivation and the purpose behind it will keep that slow burn, keep people engaged.

Tony: 100%. You know, another piece I really like I wanted to point out is that They said that leadership, you know, we talked about it earlier, is dangerous, right? They said to lead is to live dangerously because you challenge what people hold dearly. And you have nothing to add except possibility. A dream.

John: Right? They even talk about the civil rights movement. In the book? Yeah, I was going to bring it up too.

Tony: Yeah, I mean, we can go there now. It's just so crucial. And I wanted to say that leadership on the line is just such a strong pillar to diversity and inclusion, right? Because that is the ultimate sacrifice, is will you sacrifice your power. Will you sacrifice your positionality for the sake of others? And importantly, others that don't look like you, especially if you do have the power. And that's why I always talk to people about DEI and I really reference and it's not a popular it's not a popular way to view it but I always reference that you really have to be inclusive in terms of meshing with other people and getting other people involved in your fight because you cannot do it alone in any way and it's not just a race or gender thing I mean any Any component of DEI has to include other people. So your ability to, again, be adaptable and get other people to see it how you see it is so critical because a lot of people operate binary, you know, black and white, this or that, and diversity inclusion is the gray area of it all. And so, you know, I just think that's so crucial. But to go back to the point about living dangerously, Holding on to what people are people challenging what people hold dearly. I mean think about it people will spend You know more than two-thirds of their life at work probably right or doing work Or two-thirds their day. I mean you you calculate eight hours is a lot you sleep eight you live eight now I don't know what you do with your other eight But I know that that eight hours that people give, and I always mention this, is the most productive time of the day, right? So Monday through Friday, eight to five traditional work hours, that is your most productive time. I don't care what other way you look at it, unless you, you know, Batman or the Undertaker or vampire or something like eight to five when the sun is out, that's your most productive time. And so people are most alert and aware at that time. Right. So they are holding what they do dearly because this is when they're most alert. And so as the leader, you're challenging people's Not even challenging authority, I want to say you're only adding the possibility or the hope of things happening based on your vision and what you say and do. And so I think it's so critical what you said earlier, John, about exuding or exemplifying what you want to be seen as a leader, because if you're just showing up and given a lackadaisical effort and you have these people that are looking at you for hope and inspiration and you're not really giving that or you're like kind of halfway giving it, that's dangerous. Now you have people wanting to overthrow you. Now you have people whispering about you in the hallways or talking about you in a negative way and you're wondering why. You wonder why people withdraw and it's because I mean, you're challenging what they hold dearly. They care, too. And that's why inclusivity is super important to making sure that you give people a microphone, an opportunity, a stage. You know, give them something. Give the work back to the people. The book talks about that, too. Give the work back to the people. So I just want to point that out because, man, it is a dangerous sport to lead. But when you can corral people and have the charisma to galvanize groups and individuals to win people over to see it your way. It's so much easier and sweeter in the end.

John: When you're getting people on your side, It's really about get in with the community. Go experience what it's like for the people that are going to take on this change, for the people that are going to be shifting their habits and behaviors. Go spend time in the community. You know, a lot of this book goes into, you know, political community, civic engagement, government leadership as well is, you know, they talk about these success stories and a lot of the success stories are folks that went and spent time in the community or or got constituents that were within the community and help them. And the folks that were pushing back against change are the most critical folks to develop the relationship with so you can really understand their perspectives. You can understand what the angst is. I want to go back to prospect theory. A lot of things come back to Daniel Kahneman's work and Amos Tversky's work on prospect theory. It's that humans, And you talked about the possibility, some possibility of future value. And future value in dreams is far less motivating to us than avoiding loss. So another thing that you can do is, you know, when you're working with the communities, when you're working with people that are, you know, that are opposing change, that are opposing your viewpoint, that want you to, you know, that want you to get quiet. It's helping them understand not just what's the possibilities, but what's the cost of not changing. When you really help people understand the cost of staying the same, that's when you get people to start moving. I mean, this is in the data. We react more strongly to avoiding loss as opposed to pursuing gain. It's just a fact, right? Now, we talked a lot about the dangers, but I want to name the four dangers that they say here in the book. And when you're pursuing adaptive change, when you're asking people to take a leap of faith, change habits, beliefs, values, attitudes, here are the things that you'll face. And so they name these four things. One, marginalization. So the organization, the community, they just make you smaller and smaller and smaller. The impact of your decisions, the scope of your responsibility. It's like when you're overstretching your authority when you don't have buy-in from authority figures, you don't have buy-in from the other parts of the organization or community that are going to be impacted. This is when you can start the world, the organization, the community can start making you smaller. It's like, then your adaptive change doesn't push through just because no one hears it. No one hears you. Next is diversion. So this is when, for example, the organization gives you a new project. It's like, oh, Tony's trying to push this new initiative, this new change, get everyone to change the way that we work. Here's a huge project that we know that you can handle. And you're the man for the job, Tony. And we want you to spearhead this five-year, $100 million project. And then, boom, the change that you were working on, nope. Now your workload's completely taken over by this new project. So you've been successfully diverted from upsetting the organization, right? Next is.

Tony: And that happened to Martin Luther King. Point that out real quick is that that they talked about that. They said that in the book, Martin Luther King was, you know, doing the civil rights movement, focused on the South. And they said, hey, how about you shift the narrative and focus on the war? and have like a bigger stage. And he's like, OK, you know, you know, made a decision and it didn't work. His base didn't like it. And it shrunk the movement of the civil rights movement. So back to the I just want to point that out.

John: Yeah, that was such a good one. And when they were going through this, the third one is attack like just you see this all the time in political campaigns, right? is you're trying to push through, trying to push through this change and someone can bring up anything from your past, anything to devalue your opinion, anything to just wipe you out. So that one's pretty self explanatory. And then four is a little bit more nuanced and it's seduction. So Start to compromise your sense of purpose, start to take you out of action slowly and slowly. It's an interesting way that I think is somewhat related to diversion in a way, but it's seducing you away from your goal, your initiative, your purpose. Maybe that's just slightly changing your opinion on it. someone can try to not just distract, but also think that there's something more attractive out there. Let's get your attention in on this and then just try to seduce you into a new initiative, into a new relationship, into something that is going to set you up for failure that they can then attack you on. So those are the four basic forms of danger that they come onto in the book.

Tony: And you know, with that, it's super important to recognize the potentiality of being excluded. by standing up against what you just mentioned and saying, no, I think I'm going to keep my mission focused here, right? And so you keep doing what you're doing and reject the opportunity that someone brings to you to try to pivot you or try to distract you. And then you could be blackballed. And they talked about that too. And that being a real thing because leadership requires you to challenge authority. And so it's and it's no right answer. Like it's no You don't know the future. See, that's the difference. You could say, no, I'm not going to do, like Martin Luther King could have said, no, I'm going to stay here and focus on the South and doing what we're doing with the Civil Rights Movement as opposed to having this bigger platform with the war. And who knows who knows what the opposition would have done if he wouldn't have taken that step And so it's really no no no real clear answer. And so, you know, it really does Require you to challenge authority, you know, if someone says hey Hey john, you know, we have a promotion for you. We have a opportunity for you and you decline and then they say, okay, now you're my competitor. That actually happened with Phil Nike and Oakley Shays. Phil Nike told Oakley, hey, we want to partner, we want to invest, we want to buy you out. And they were like, no, we're good. And he kept offering, kept offering. Then he said, okay, you're our competitor. And then Nike took off and took over the sports market that Oakley had. It's it's it's no clear answer, but it is dangerous. It is it is scary and you will have to challenge authority so I like how you brought up those four dangers because It's just, it's danger. It's just like anything else. What's around the corner? We don't know. But I do think it's important to have wise counsel around you and have people that are experienced because if you are on the micro side of things where you're kind of one individual, you know, with your toolkit, going up against a conglomerate or a group of people that are very powerful, it can be tough in any situation.

John: And I think that gets back to understanding the folks that are going through the change as well and getting back to the purpose. Because like you mentioned, what if MLK wouldn't have entertained the idea? How could he have handled that? And I think it gets back to understanding the purpose behind it. Because when someone comes to you, even if a trusted advisor comes to you with an opportunity, they could genuinely be in their heart seeing it as an opportunity and somewhere that would amplify your message, that would fulfill your vision. So they could be coming at you with completely good intentions. They could be trying to distract you. You don't know. And you brought up uncertainty. And, you know, that's one thing that is guaranteed, right? Uncertainty in our future. And that's where the question comes in, is, you know, help them unpack the why behind the message. You know, tell me a little bit more about, you know, why you think this will amplify my message. Give me an example of how this worked for you in the past. What were some of the drawbacks? What are some of the challenges that you faced and was it worth it? There are so many ways that you can start unpacking what people are bringing to you and then you'll be able to notice and also help them notice If it's really in line, does it really make sense? You help people understand by letting them see their own thought process. Because once they get committed to something, it's no longer a thought process. It's a step into the initiative type moment. So I just wanted to put that in as these suggestions and diversions and distractions come at you, how do you pause and unpack them a little bit more? So I think this requires, and I want to step into my favorite topic of this book, and it's getting on the balcony. There's the balcony and the dance floor. It talks about how you have to move between both of them, be able to jump between both. But this objective view of getting on the balcony, that's when you can start asking those questions. That's when, but if you're so in the game and on the dance floor, you can't see what's happening from a broader perspective. You can't see what are some of the other motivators for that person to try to distract you. What are some of the motivators that are furthering their initiatives? What might they be trying to accomplish by working with you on this? And it's like taking that step out. And then we get into mindfulness, self-awareness, like being able to pause and get on the balcony. Because sometimes the dance floor is so busy, that the path to the stairs to get on the balcony is like you're at the club. It's a struggle to get up there. But then once you're there, then you can start to ask the questions. There's four questions that they say to help you get on the balcony. I'm just going to run through these quickly and then we can unpack them. One, distinguish technical from adaptive challenges. We talked about that a bit. Two, find out where people are at. Three, read the behavior of authority figures. And four, think politically.

Tony: Wow. Did you say read the behavior of authority figures?

John: That's right. That was number three. Read the behavior of authority figures. It gives you a lot of insight.

Tony: Yeah, that's great. And I like that because not only reading the behavior is important, but really working to understand why the authority figures think the way they think or do what they do. And it really also depends on where you want to go to as an individual. Like, are you trying to go up the ladder to get to the VIP section of the club, like you mentioned? Or are you trying to go out the door to a different organization or a different club? Or are you just at the bar to have a good time? You know, you got to ask yourself what direction you want to go. And if you want to go up, then the only way to go up is to actually get to know the people that are the authority figures, right? Or try to understand them as opposed to being in opposition and giving them problems. Because the key word in that sentence that you said is authority They are the authority figures if you want to not if you want to have less challenges with the law Learn the law You know if you want to have less challenges with the body Learn the body. That stuck out to me a lot.

John: Related to that one and reading authority figures for clues, I think that's another part of one of the lines from the book is, listen to the song beneath the words. I know they're talking about that in regards to masses of people as well, but focus and interpret the words, the behaviors, the body language. Typically, the actions of those authority figures will also lead to the sentiments of the group that they lead. Because they ultimately know the challenges they're going to face when they go back to their community, to their team, to their organization, to drive your change through. So that will give you a clue. Their reaction will give you a clue to the support or the lack of support that you'll experience from their base. Because the leaders, I mean, all these authority figures are human. They know when they're going to face challenge and opposition, and it's going to be reflected in their body language. It's just a fact. Then think politically. I think find out where people are at, reading authority figures. Finding where people are at is also about listening to the song beneath the words there. just seeing where they're at in their stage of change, if they are able to adapt more or not. We talked a lot about distinguishing technical from adaptive challenges already, so we'll skip over that one because I think it's important to talk about number 4 and think politically. I think this, You know, this word gets a bad rap. You know, you talk about office politics, organization politics, and it just has a negative connotation. But I want to point out a few of the the actions, like some of the key some of the key parts of thinking politically that they highlight in the book. And I think a lot of them are very, very positive. One is finding partners is crucial. If you have no one in your network, no one in your support system to reach out to as you move through adaptive change, you're done. Don't even think about it. Finding partners, but also partners in the opposition. They might not agree with you fundamentally, but Are you willing to invest in establishing a relationship on some norm, even if you disagree on the main topic? So keep the opposition close. You need to be able to understand their sentiments, understand what's rubbing them the wrong way. And can you find a relationship with them on a human level as opposed to just being so focused on the topic? Then we talked about this a bit, but number three is accept responsibility for your piece of the mess. Like you are part of the problem, right? So then that also turns that also turns this into an us problem. Like how do we solve this together? You know, if you're able to say how you've been part of the problem, Right because then it's not a you know, you need to change problem. It's a This here's what happens if we don't change. Here's what I'm doing about it and You know, here's how we can do it together Four is acknowledge their loss. We talked about this a bit as well. What are folks losing in this process of change? Five, model the behavior. We talked about that. And then six, accept casualties. You talked about in the pot, some of the ingredients just might not be a good fit. And there will be casualties of adaptive change. Sometimes it's a major organizational change that requires downsizing. It requires downsizing in order to keep the organism alive because organizations are living. They're moving, processing nonstop. Sometimes you got to drop the limb to keep the body alive. So those are the six essential aspects to political thinking that they have here in the book. I think that's crucial to navigating an organizational network, a community network, governmental network. It doesn't have to be manipulating. Notice in there, there's nowhere that they said how to influence people, how to manipulate people. But it was all the things that are crucial to having a political network that can set you up to execute adaptive change.

Tony: Yeah. And. You know, out of all you said, I think that. Knowing yourself is is important as well in the entire process, because you're dealing with so much, right, you're dealing with constituents, you're dealing with leaders, you're dealing with community, you're dealing with much more. than just yourself, like you mentioned, a living, breathing organization. So you have to ask yourself and look in the mirror. And again, like you mentioned, know that you are part of the problem. and not deny that or not think that you are anti what's going on. You work there, you live there, you operate there, you are part of the ecosystem and look at what part you play and then start to navigate through to where you want to ultimately end up, whether that is having more influence, Or just simply bringing your talents in a way where it's shown and appreciated within your organization. So spot on with your points there. And I think that the word political does get a negative connotation, but Even when we all die one day, there will still be politicians. So understand that it's better to learn and understand and appreciate that component of what society is as a whole and even how that plays a factor in organizations. And find your way to operate within the ecosystem, even within politics.

John: Like that political thinking is absolutely crucial. And then, you know, the final part is, you know, how to keep your spirit alive when the going gets tough. And they talk about managing your hunger. And I love this line, that everyone needs some level of power and control, affirmation and recognition, intimacy and satisfaction, but managing these hungers is an individual responsibility. Those in authority, you must ensure that you don't carry issues or agendas belonging to others, not taking that home with you. Being able to anchor yourself, in maybe your spirituality, in your values, your family, the bigger picture of your life, and not taking home the attacks, not taking home other people's agendas or things that are opposition to your push for adaptive change. Ultimately, you're here to experience this dance of life. right? And how do you connect to yourself, your higher self, God, spirituality, a greater purpose on this rock than Just what you're trying to do at work at the office in the community and not letting it over consume your psyche and your life. Right so it's absolutely crucial if you're leading adaptive change if you're challenging authority if you are. spearheading something that can really change the dynamic of the way that we do business or the way that we do civilization here in the country, in the world, you got to fill your cup. You got to nourish body, mind, and soul to keep you moving and grinding through the process. So adaptive leaders. Take care of yourselves and prepare for the dangers ahead because it's inevitable. That's right.

Tony: It's a fact.

John: Right. Straight fact. All right, my friends, any closing remarks, Tony? I feel like we've covered a lot of the book here.

Tony: Oh, yeah. Check it out for yourself. Share it with other people and understand that it's a dance. It's not a leadership. It's not like a title. And then that's it. It's actually much more than that. And if you're not a leader yet, then the best thing that you can do is to get prepared for it. And I've talked to people that It's happening for them right now, where they are becoming the leader that they always wanted to be one day, just because of the natural cycle of life and generations and age. And so now here we are, as for some of us, and it's better to get prepared and be prepared, you know, stay ready. so you don't have to get ready. That's right. Take that one with you.

John: That's right. All right, my friends, adaptive leaders, present professionals, thank you so much for joining us for another episode here. Wherever you are listening to your podcast, we would greatly appreciate it if you'd leave a review and be able to rate and review anywhere that you're listening. It makes a big difference for getting the word out there and please share with your friends, share with someone that's moving into a position of adaptive change, that's moving into a leadership role where they may face some of these dangers. Share this episode, share the recommendations, share what you're learning and take something specific from each of the episodes and start bringing it into your life. Start living some of these principles, experimenting with some of them in your work and life. Thank you so much for being listeners. Check us out at the presentprofessionalpodcast.com. Interact with us, leave feedback. We'd love to hear more from you. Until next time, my friends.