075 - The Human Side of Mergers and Acquisitions with Rachel Krug

In this timely and practical conversation, John Marshall sits down with Rachel Krug, Humessence coach and seasoned growth operator, to pull back the curtain on what really happens inside companies during mergers and acquisitions. Drawing from four distinct M&A experiences — as an acquiree, an acquirer, and everything in between — Rachel shares candid lessons on why the real work begins after the deal closes, not before. From decoding cultural differences and running listening tours, to coaching executives on purposeful communication and supporting HR leaders who are holding everyone else together while navigating their own uncertainty, this episode is an essential listen for anyone leading people through organizational change. Rachel makes a compelling case that M&A does not have to be purely a business transaction — it can and should be a deeply human centered experience.

Connect with Rachel Krug: Website

Takeaways

• Post-acquisition uncertainty is normal and HR leaders play a critical role in helping teams understand that.
• The work of integration begins on day zero — and the acquiring company rarely has everything figured out ahead of time.
• Purposeful communication is more effective and more honest than blanket promises of transparency.
• Telling the team about an acquisition too late can create shock and erode trust at the worst possible moment.
• Studying the culture of both companies before the deal closes gives HR a significant advantage in managing the transition.
• A listening tour with a cross section of the acquired company is one of the most powerful tools available to an HR leader post-deal.
• Top performers need to be actively nurtured and incentivized to stay — the attitude that they are lucky to be retained is a retention risk.
• Leaders should be coached to be intentional not just in what they say but in tone, body language, and how they frame the new company's future.
• HR leaders need their own space to process the transition, and group coaching or individual coaching during this period can be transformative.
• M&A can evolve from a business transaction into a human centered experience — and the HR leader is the one who can drive that shift.

Visit The Present Professional webpage on humessence.com and learn more about how we support leadership development and culture enablement at growth-stage organizations.

Thank you for listening.

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Transcript

John Marshall (00:31)
Welcome to another episode of the present professional. Today we have a special guest with us, our very own coach at humessence, Rachel Krug. And we're here to talk to you today about going through mergers and acquisitions from both sides, from the acquirer, from those being acquired and how critical HR's role is.

in that process, things that they can do beforehand leading up to during in the midst of and after the transition, right when a lot of the work really starts. Now, to just dive into this conversation, really, right right away. Why don't you let the audience into a little bit of your experience and your background?

in into these transitions and right? Why? Why do we have you on here to talk about this in the first place?

Rachel Krug (01:29)
Sure thing, John. Thanks so much for having me. So my career has been as a growth operator.

And I work with companies that are scaling. And many times when you are leading those companies, you're actually aiming to be acquired or you are acquiring companies. So I've actually been involved in four different types of experiences at four different companies from being acquired by large publicly traded companies to purchasing a small mom and pop entity to selling

to a large private company and all of the experiences were different and really I've learned so much from them so it puts me in a unique position to coach people who are going through these transitions.

John Marshall (02:17)
Right, you've been there. And through when you look back across all of these experiences, what do HR leaders and just people leaders in general most misunderstand about what really happens after the deal closes?

Rachel Krug (02:35)
Yeah, I think as an employee, you...

might assume that your leaders have everything figured out and that once you get to the other side of a deal or you're acquired by a new company, they know exactly what your role and responsibility is. But in fact, that is not the case. All of your leadership and executive team work up until the deal gets done is focused on doing the deal. And it is a lot of work. And I'd say the first time I really learned that

That was my first experience where constant contact was acquired by Endurance International Group. And I was privileged to be one of the first manager level employees in the physical building of Endurance. And I was also privileged as a manager level employee to sit in on those integration meetings. But that was a turning point for me because I had always assumed leadership had this detailed roadmap. And then I'm sitting in these integration meetings and we're talking about revenue synergies.

and who's gonna do what and like watching these senior senior people try to figure things out in real time made it very clear that again, there's so much goes in and I later learned how much goes into doing a deal like that because I had done one but at the time I didn't realize that so that was a big surprise.

John Marshall (03:55)
so that there's this perception that, we've got everything figured out, so I would imagine that creates a little bit of cognitive dissonance after the fact. Wait, what's going on? I thought we had this all figured out, and now they're coming to us trying to understand what we do after they already acquired us. What's going on here? How do you think...

HR leaders or people leaders in general could get ahead of something like this, if at all? Or is it just built into the structure of acquisition?

Rachel Krug (04:26)
No, I think it's really important for HR leaders in particular to let the team know that this is normal.

So it's normal that after there's a merger or acquisition, there is a time period where it's called integration, where even if you had hypotheses during the pre-deal process, you're working to confirm those hypotheses. You're working to figure them out. So I think the role really is to help people stay flexible, make them feel supported during this somewhat uncertain time and then well-resourced. So there are surprises as well that come up post-acquisition.

⁓ Another example, an example of a surprise, I was working at an accounting tech company and we acquired a small mom and pop app.

in the QuickBooks ecosystem that did data import and export to QuickBooks. And the team had done a great job on financial due diligence, but despite best intentions and hard work, hadn't captured the entirety of the operational reality of that business. So after we acquired it, I was named general manager and day zero, I'm in charge of everything. So I'm in charge of customer support and sales and technical. And I realized very quickly,

like, oh, our customer support system actually, like the emails, the outgoing emails aren't working. That's not necessarily a question that comes up, you know, ahead of time, but it was an operational reality. And fortunately, I did have resources and wherewithal to figure out how to fix it and fix it quickly because customers are the most important part of a business. So you need to be able to respond to them quickly. But that was a surprise. So again, stay

being flexible, being resourced when surprises come up, and then really working with people who want to help build the plan for the future.

John Marshall (06:17)
Mmm.

You know, I feel like we dove really right into the, into the midst of the process. want to take a couple steps back. So for, for those kind of going on both sides to really clearly spell this out. So for those listening that are sitting in the seat of a company that is

being acquired, right, or in the process of being acquired. And you are privy to the conversation, right? You're one of the people leaders, senior folks that are privy to the conversation of what's happening. You're involved in the upcoming transition. What should those people be thinking about at this moment? And...

I guess maybe starting from your experience of the seed of being acquired, what are some of the things that you learned that...

went wrong or that people did the wrong thing. So that those listening in that seat right now can learn from what you've been through and take in some thoughts of some first steps that they should be taking right now to get their company set up for success and transition.

Rachel Krug (07:29)
Yeah, I think.

as a leader who's in the know, and it's not necessarily all of your leaders. It's typically a small tiger team that is set up to help support due diligence. And I've been on that team twice. First at business.com, I was the VP of growth leading a sales marketing and customer success team. My role in that situation was more supportive. I was pulling data, walking people through systems, helping the acquiring company understand

how we worked. Within a bulletin, I was really more of a partner to the CEO as we worked to sell to Emerald Expo. So those are the two different teams I've been on. And I can say both went very differently. Every experience is different. At business.com, think...

One interesting decision that we made that I'm, know, retrospectively not sure was the best or the right one is we didn't tell the team until the day that the deal closed. And then the CEO was let go on day zero and our chief revenue officer was let go on day zero. And again, that's totally normal in these things that there are people transitions on day zero, but the team was shocked that we were getting acquired. And then of course they felt that mourning and loss for their

leaders and we had a leadership team of 12.

The new company was only retaining four of us. So the four of us who were remaining, including myself and our chief product officer who did a fantastic job addressing people's feelings and letting people know it was okay to be sad. We really had to pick up the emotional pieces from that decision. Also the new company at the start was not warm and fuzzy and you know, all companies operate differently, but they were

very financially driven.

which was a little bit different than our culture, which was maybe a bit more people driven. So people had reactions to that as well. And it's always an adjustment for people, right? When two different cultures come together, what's gonna work and what's not gonna work. So I think that's a huge learning. But then at Bulletin, we did tell the team, we told the team about 60 days before the deal closed. And amazingly, and I give huge credit to the co-founders of that company

this we retained everybody through that transition even though we had given them a heads up and even though hey we're being acquired usually means there's gonna be some people changes or changes in roles and responsibilities everybody stayed and I think that's because we had built such a great supportive caring working hard type of culture that people just wanted to be loyal and see what might be on the other side so totally different experiences

John Marshall (10:17)
So just to follow up on that and narrow it down, what do you think are the key things, maybe two or three key things that determine whether people stay or whether people leave after the transition?

Rachel Krug (10:32)
Yeah, I know that...

It really is, and this I think is really important for HR leaders to note, this is a trigger, right? This is a big change and a trigger. anybody who is maybe on the fence about their role or ⁓ anybody who might maybe is super motivated and wants to keep breath or level of responsibility is going to take the time to consider their new package. If they're, if they're fortunate enough to get one. ⁓

against

what they think they could get on the market. And I feel like that's not necessarily a reality that acquiring companies always consider. A lot of times the attitude has been, you're lucky to be retained. Or you're lucky to still have a job here.

It's like, okay. And at least for me personally, a couple of times, you know, that wasn't enough. My scope when we were, when business.com was acquired, was again, four out of 12, one of the four to be retained, but my scope narrowed. And at that point in my career, I was really looking for breadth of responsibility. And so I did end up leaving that company. When Bulletin was acquired, again, I was retained. But quite frankly, my compensation did not change and I was given more responsibility.

So that's another interesting moment of, okay, I have two teams instead of one, but then nothing really was in it for me. Also, I don't love working at large.

like large companies. So in both situations, those were enormous companies. I prefer smaller where you can move quickly, get stuff done, help really shape the culture and drive the business. But I think, again, important for HR leaders to know that. And if there is somebody who you really want to retain, make sure you incentivize them to stay, make sure you nurture them and talk through all of the changes, hire them a coach to help them deal with the transition, because it really is

hard for everybody, including your top performers. One other point on people, John, that I want people to realize is when you're acquired, you're at, you're typically asked to stack rank your employees. So your leadership team is stack ranking you from top to bottom, of who you as a company really want to be part of the new entity. So that's a really interesting and honestly for your leaders.

John Marshall (12:29)
Mm.

Rachel Krug (12:53)
very difficult exercise because how do you possibly make those decisions and then how do you hold those decisions when you know somebody that you have loved coaching and working with just didn't make the cut.

John Marshall (13:05)
Hmm.

So it's really important to be with people through the transition, try to understand their values, understand some of the things that might clash with those values. I guess when it comes up for systems to support those people, there's coaching.

different trainings, support groups, focus groups. I don't know anything that we're not thinking of here that would be of support to people through transition to kind of maintain engagement.

Rachel Krug (13:36)
I, so I think this might be a slightly different topic, but anytime I've moved from, you know, one to the other company in this type of situation, the cultures are typically different.

And not necessarily bad, different, just different. And I think in all four experiences, nobody's called that out. Nobody's made that explicit and been like, Hey, here's how we operated at business.com. New company operates in this way. So instead of having a reaction when the CEO comes in leading with hard numbers, there's some understanding of where that's coming from. That's never happened. So I think really for an HR.

our leader in particular, studying the culture of your current organization, understanding as much as you can about the culture of the new organization, specifically articulating where things overlap and where things are different, just to help employees decode expectations. I have always found that part extremely difficult. And in the process of working and having best intentions,

sometimes you get surprised. like, oh, you guys do it that way? I never would have thought I made a bad assumption. And to the extent you can avoid that, the, I think, more likely integration will be successful.

John Marshall (14:55)
Decoding expectations. That's one item that goes on the takeaway list here.

Rachel Krug (15:03)
Yeah, that's where HR leaders can have a huge, huge impact. Identify what matters most to the new company, look at the new company values, explain those to your team.

John Marshall (15:21)
Okay, I mean, shifting, I guess shifting gears to the other side and being in the acquiring company. And you're looking at and you're one of the leaders, you're one of the leaders in the know, right? You know something, something's coming up, you're going to be integrating a new organization into the culture.

Rachel Krug (15:30)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

John Marshall (15:44)
you're going to want to retain the best that come from that organization and let them be excited to join your culture. What are some of the, I guess, pitfalls and success stories of acquiring companies? I know you have a couple experiences there.

Rachel Krug (16:02)
Yeah.

I think the most important thing for the acquiring company is to focus on learning the company you just acquired without making too many assumptions or judgments. There is during a

30, 60, 90 day learning phase post acquisition. I don't think there's any reason to say, we weren't happy with the way that so-and-so was doing things and that's why he's no longer here. I had somebody say that to me once. It's like, okay, well, how is that productive? Like, yes, that person's no longer here. And yes, we're all in this to improve continuously. So why don't we just collaborate on what that might look like? So I think focusing on the learning

of the business really getting as much knowledge out of the company you've acquired out of their leaders. You don't know how long they're gonna stay. You just don't. They may or may not be incentivized to stay. It doesn't matter. Even sometimes when they're incentivized to stay, it's just you've acquired a small company, you're at a bigger company.

their founder types of people. They want to go start something else. So learning as much as you can early on without judging what was done before you started operating the company.

John Marshall (17:20)
And when I kind of learning and bringing in and this knowledge transfer activity, ⁓ I guess what specifically could anyone listening today, like prepare for or arrange to, I guess get get set up to be in a good place for this knowledge transfer? Like

Rachel Krug (17:27)
Yes.

Yeah,

think maybe something to consider as an HR leader is doing a listening tour. If you've just acquired a company, sit down with a sample of the company you've acquired. Ask the sample, let's say it's 10 people, the same exact questions and do an analysis of what did you hear and what did you learn? And what does this company care about? And then do that analysis of, we just acquired this

app, here's how they operate very similar to how we operate, and here's how they do things different. And here's a sensitive way, as an HR leader you can make these recommendations, here's a sensitive way of how we can integrate them, understanding them.

John Marshall (18:24)
Mm hmm. Listening tour, just really identifying those key people that need to spend some more time with. And and I guess it's also maybe thinking internally about who needs to spend time with some of these specific people. Right. Like, I'm sure you're connecting your.

Rachel Krug (18:41)
for sure.

John Marshall (18:44)
sales and marketing people in strategic ways, you're connecting the technical teams in ways that need to understand how to work together to be productive. I mean, just that whole process of integration is really about helping people become aligned on what the work process actually is.

Rachel Krug (19:03)
Yes.

A special comment on the technical people. Also have the technical team at the acquiring company be sure to dig into any tech debt or security issues that may not have surfaced in the due diligence process. Due diligence is again highly focused on finance. It goes into some operational and technical detail and sometimes security scans are done, but not always. So certainly learning how to work, but also what skeletons are in the

closet that could cause problems for the new entity.

John Marshall (19:36)
Definitely, definitely. And you you've seen across your experiences, it sounds like you've really seen a difference in communication choices. And I guess the theme that's coming up specifically is this level of transparency, right? And, you know, for as much transparency as you can give,

Rachel Krug (19:52)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (19:57)
but also the way that that's communicated. Can you take us through some key differences in communication choices that had an impact on the success of the integration?

Rachel Krug (20:09)
Sure, and John, I try not to use the word transparency when I'm leading because you can never tell your team everything. So I do use the word purposeful communication instead. So if you don't mind, we'll shift to purposeful communication because if you say transparency and...

you haven't shared a financial detail or a personnel detail because you can't because those things are confidential. Sometimes people are like, you said you'd be transparent. Well, yes, but not with the things that are privileged and confidential and company secrets. So yes, purposeful communication, super important. I think the first time I experienced that is right after Interns International acquired Constant Contact. There were immediate

my office. And I remember this vividly because I was sitting right between my executive's office and a conference room and the folders came out and people were crying and people had been with the company for 10 plus years were being let go and I just couldn't, it was my first time going through it. So I just couldn't really understand what was happening and I had to actually physically remove myself from that situation. I went downstairs so I could process and work.

But then I'm so grateful. It took a few hours to get through everybody. I was so grateful after it was over. My executive, who was somebody I've worked for at two different companies and somebody who's just the type of leader that you would follow to the end of the earth. No matter what he asked, would do just that type of charismatic, inspirational leader. He brought us all together and he was like, look, this is done. You're the go-forward team. This is going to be my new role. This is going to be your new role.

John Marshall (21:49)
Hmm.

Rachel Krug (21:57)
I'm

here to answer, you know, what I know at this point and then here for you kind of going forward. And in that situation, I built up so much trust with this person that I just felt like personally so much better being in that huddle, hearing things were over, hearing I was safe and hearing that he had a role at the new company. So he was staying and I was very attached to like, well, if he's not staying, I'm not saying. I'm very attached to him. So great to hear that he was.

to be part of the go forward team. So that's maybe one example of like that. And I think that's super important after any type of event to huddle and pull your team together and be purposeful in what you say and how you position next steps will also deeply empathetic to what has just happened and grateful for the team that has just left. At business.com separately when we were acquired, I think this was probably the pitfall again, because we didn't understand the cultural differences.

and our CEO, we hadn't communicated with the team previously and our CEO all of a sudden was gone. And then the new CEO gets on a call with us and he starts talking about what a great asset business.com is.

He doesn't say anything about how excited he is to work with us. doesn't say anything about what a great job we've done running the business up until now. He calls us an asset. And just using that word had enormous ripple effects where we were triaging what that meant and what it was going to mean to work with the new company. So think that's a different example of, you know, maybe what not to say, or maybe to study a little bit the company, your

acquiring and how they talk and in your welcome speech, know, be welcoming, even if, even if maybe like not everybody's going to be there, still say that. Welcome, we're figuring things out. We're, you know, we're going to be as purposeful as we can be in our communication. Here's what, here's some things that we think you've done well. Here's some reasons why we acquired you.

short and sweet, right? It's day zero. People are upset on day zero or nervous or, you know, at minimum just feeling uncertain. And then again, with Bulletin, I think we did a great job on the communications. 60 days out with the purposeful communication. think the only

consideration of that is deals don't always get done on the timeline you think they will. And so our deal slipped a couple of times and the team was like, what is happening? Again, that is super normal. So just having to communicate, hey, it's super normal. It's not a big deal. This is like very typical in a due diligence process that it's supposed to be, you know, this Monday. And then, I don't know, maybe you don't get something signed and the bank's already closed for the day. So somebody's traveling. So it's going to be next Monday.

It's never on time. So that was maybe the only thing people got a little bit sensitive about knowing in advance is, when's it going to happen? When's it going to happen? We had a very eager gung ho team in that company. Yes. Yes.

John Marshall (24:51)
The anticipation is real.

So, and I'm imagining, you know, some folks sitting here listening, saying, you know, that are probably a little bit more emotionally aware, more empathetic, probably would think to communicate in some of the ways that you just mentioned, but they're sitting there saying like, how do I, how do I coach my leader who I know just

comments off the cuff to really kind of be thoughtful about this communication. I guess I'm seeing that maybe there's part of this HR leader as a coach here, in supporting some of the communications of key leaders.

Rachel Krug (25:17)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

John Marshall (25:36)
I guess what do you recommend to support some of those people that are sitting there saying, this all sounds great, but how do I get my leader to listen to some of these communication strategies and why it's important and how do I coach them through that?

Rachel Krug (25:50)
Yeah, as the HR leader in that position, I would get super clear on what matters as an outcome right now. So put yourself in your CEO shoes, put yourself in the rest of the company shoes. What outcome would you want from this phase of the transition? So if it is day zero, the outcome you actually want is you want to retain the team typically until you figure out.

what's going to happen and who you need and who is on the go forward team if those decisions have not been made. You typically know who are your top performers that you absolutely want to take, have your CEO meet with them. You can meet with them. Just listen to them, right? So get clear on what matters at the particular phase. Later on in the integration work.

there might be different goals. What are the goals at that moment? Where can you have the greatest impact helping people understand those goals, helping your executive team communicate those goals? Repetition is very much the key here and also making sure as you meld ⁓ executive and leadership team, everybody has the same message. You don't want pockets of he said, she said, or he said, he said, or they said, she said. Just everybody should have a

unified go-forward message as a new combined team. And if you notice that that's not happening, escalate that. Escalate that, talk about it with your team, get to the root cause of it, what is going on energetically with these people, what is going on in their personal lives, coach them.

They are executive leader at this new company. Like what do you expect from them and how they think communicate act represent you.

John Marshall (28:16)
All great, all great tips and tricks for folks that need to be coaching communicators through this process. So thanks for all of that, Rachel.

We talked a lot, we've been talking a lot about language here and communication and different coaching people through that strategy and ultimately for the goal to integrate these organizations and keep the key players that are there. you mentioned before that...

Even those folks that were engaged and were kept were not necessarily the people to stick around the longest. What kind of reality checks should listeners have about what it means to stay, be engaged, and some of realities that listeners should be aware of, of how...

how it's actually going to shake out from the retention perspective.

Rachel Krug (29:21)
Sure, I think again it's different in every scenario and super supportive of people who stay and sometimes people get a great role at the new company. maybe their responsibilities have expanded or they get partnered with a leader that they really connect with and resonates with them and they stay and remain at the new entity.

for

their career and that's awesome. That's maybe 25 % of people in my experience but the other 75 % is a mix of people react to the new culture and leave or people know themselves and know hey I actually prefer small company over big company or

people would just use it as a trigger of, I really wanted to do X, Y, Z with my life and now is a good chance to do it. Great. So that's the kind of voluntary bucket. That's probably half of that 75 % and the other half of the 75 % is the involuntary bucket. And naturally when you bring two companies together, there are people doing the exact same job. You don't necessarily need two people doing the exact same job. So those redundancies typically happen earlier in a process.

days 0 to Then there's another bucket of involuntary that typically happens around the one-year mark where the acquiring company has learned as much as they can from you and maybe they just bought you for your tech. Maybe they really didn't buy you for your people and so a year later they let the team go.

which is just something to be aware of if you're in the situation of being acquired, certainly there is a chance you add value, you give, you connect with your leader. There is a chance you stay and be very successful in your new role. But there's also a chance that the acquiring company has acquired the company for technical reasons and not necessarily for people reasons. So just something to be aware of as you navigate what's next for yourself and your team

And I think it's fine also as HR to be open about that. People want to understand what are the options. More junior people in particular, what's in it for me? Where does my career go? Is there a growth path here? So...

If the goal is to retain people, outline that for them. People need that. People want to hear from their leaders. They want to hear what their future looks like at the new company. And if they don't get it, that is a trigger and a risk for attrition.

John Marshall (31:57)
Hmm.

the reality.

Rachel Krug (31:59)
Yeah. Yeah.

John Marshall (32:00)
So for HR leaders who maybe are sitting here saying,

everyone feels like I'm expected to hold everyone else together while, you know, they're also uncertain, right? They're also feeling some ways about the transition and, you know, feeling like you need to hold everything together for yourself in order to hold everyone else together. What kind of support should these HR leaders be seeking for themselves?

Rachel Krug (32:26)
Yeah, I think again, a coach or maybe a group coaching program at this stage would be super helpful just to help share the experience and process what is going on. So as an HR leader, you're used to doing, doing, crosses your desk and you're executing, but this is actually not necessarily the time.

to get stuff done. is a time to share what you're experiencing and really understand where do you feel steady, where do you feel uncertain, why do you feel uncertain, what has been difficult to process while you're like literally on call for everybody else. You everybody's calling you, texting you, what's going on? Do you know stuff? What's difficult for you in that so that you can create self-awareness and show up better for yourself and for your people.

you

John Marshall (33:15)
Self-awareness, other awareness, I mean, really taking some time to take everything in and just making sure that you are, you have a space to process what's going on. Which, you know, which really will help with your own communication and being able to hold everyone else through this transition as well.

Rachel Krug (33:28)
Yes. Yes.

Yeah, I would also add, John, like, as an HR leader, you get to decide what kind of leader you want to be during this uncertainty. And really working with a group on what are my values? How do I want to show up? How do I want to stay grounded when everything around me is shifting is really, really important in developing your own leadership identity.

John Marshall (34:04)
Wow. Wow. I think that's a great note to leave people with is, you it all comes back to how do you want to show up in this situation and how can you support yourself to show up in the way that you intend? Powerful. Powerful. So just to wrap this all up, you know, if you wanted listeners to walk away with

Rachel Krug (34:13)
Yeah.

John Marshall (34:27)
one thing that's going to shift the way that they view these transitions from either side, what would you leave them with?

Rachel Krug (34:28)
Yeah.

I have two things. Okay. The first is that ⁓ &A is a deeply human experience. So it really is about you and your people. People are going to be questioning their future, evaluating their new environment.

John Marshall (34:39)
Of course, of course.

Rachel Krug (34:57)
They're looking at everything from how you say, what you say, your tone, your facial expressions. So it's not just language that matters. It's really how you are presenting yourself as a executive leader. And then the second thing is we can do this better.

We are really smart business people and we can do this better. There's no question in my mind that this can, M&A can evolve from being thought of as a business transaction to being a human centered experience. No question that that can be achieved.

John Marshall (35:36)
I couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. Everyone, thank you so much for tuning in today. Rachel, thank you so much for sharing your experience and perspective around this topic that is ever present and growing right now. So it's gonna be really, really helpful for people. And for those of you listening,

Rachel Krug (35:49)
Yes

Thanks.

John Marshall (35:57)
Thank you so much for tuning in. There will be more coming at you and there will be more of ways to connect and some different resources in the show notes as well. So again, thank you so much for tuning into the show. You're already doing so much more for yourself and your culture by listening and putting some of these ideas into practice. until next time, my friends, on the next episode of The Present Professional.