084 - How to Receive Feedback and Turn It Into Growth with Mallory Herrin

In this thoughtful and practical conversation, John Marshall sits down with Mallory Herrin, CEO and Principal HR Consultant of HerrinHR, award-winning speaker, certified coach, and author of Intentional HR, to explore the part of workplace feedback most organizations overlook: learning how to receive it well. Mallory explains why even carefully delivered feedback can feel like a personal attack when our identity is closely tied to our work, and why curiosity, self-awareness, and radical responsibility are essential for moving beyond defensiveness. Together, John and Mallory examine the difference between fixed and growth mindsets, the role emotional intelligence plays on both sides of a difficult conversation, and how physical regulation can help us manage emotional reactions in the moment. They also unpack generational differences in feedback expectations, the distinction between being nice and being genuinely kind, and the organizational systems needed to make peer-to-peer and upward feedback part of everyday work. Honest, relatable, and filled with immediately useful strategies, this episode offers a new way to view feedback, not as a threat to our identity, but as information that can strengthen performance, relationships, and long-term growth.

Resources:
Intentional HR by Mallory Herrin
Thanks for the Feedback by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen
Leadership and Self-Deception by The Arbinger Institute

Connect with Mallory Herrin: LinkedIn | Website

Takeaways

• Teaching managers how to deliver feedback is not enough; employees and leaders must also learn how to receive it, explore it, and turn it into action.
• Feedback feels personal because people often connect their work performance to their identity, value, and sense of worth.
• Even when feedback seems inaccurate, another person’s perception can reveal something important about the experience we are creating for others.
• Curiosity changes the purpose of a feedback conversation from proving who is right to discovering what can be learned.
• A growth mindset allows people to separate feedback about a behavior or work product from a judgment about who they are as a person.
• Proactively seeking feedback reduces the likelihood of painful surprises and gives people more control over their development.
• Emotional intelligence is required on both sides of the conversation; the giver must consider how the message will be received, while the receiver must manage their own reactions.
• Small physical actions, including taking a breath, changing posture, moving your feet, or taking a sip of water, can help regulate the nervous system before responding.
• Generational patterns can provide useful context, but personal relationships and individual communication preferences are more reliable than stereotypes.
• A strong feedback culture includes manager-to-employee, employee-to-manager, and peer-to-peer conversations that happen consistently rather than only during formal reviews.

Visit The Present Professional webpage on humessence.com and learn more about how we support leadership development and culture enablement at growth-stage organizations.

Thank you for listening.

Coach John Marshall | Instagram | LinkedIn

Transcript

John Marshall (00:32)
Welcome back to the Present Professional. Today I'm joined by Mallory Herrin, CEO and Principal HR consultant of Herrin HR. Mallory brings nearly two decades of HR experience helping small and mid sized organizations connect their people strategy to business performance. She's an award winning speaker, certified coach, author of Intentional HR, a revolution in strategic thinking, and co host of Breakthrough with Mallory and Julie.

Today, we're exploring a part of feedback that organizations often neglect, not only how leaders give it, but how all of us learn to receive it, and how general expectations and generational expectations shape what we hear, what we resist, and what actually helps us grow. Mallory, welcome to the present professional.

Mallory Herrin (01:28)
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

John Marshall (01:31)
Of course, of course. So before we just dive into the topic, I'd love for the audience to get a little bit of background on what's brought you to this part in your journey and what what created Herrin HR?

Mallory Herrin (01:47)
wow, that's a good question. like many people in HR, like initially I got into it kind of accidentally. Like I was doing some accounting work and payroll, and the the boss at that company was like, Hey, payrolls in HR, do HR too. So I started taking that on, no clue what I was doing at the time, but found that I really preferred that to accounting. And I wanted to stay in that lane. So

I've been very fortunate to have really amazing jobs throughout my career. I got into consulting over ten years ago, working in PEOs, so working with small businesses as a consultant through the PEO. And my husband and I had been talking about starting our own consulting company for quite some time. And then he finally talked me into it. It was really hard because I had to, you know, quit my job that I loved, that had

A steady paycheck to start this in 2019 at the end of 2019. So not knowing pandemic is coming, right?

John Marshall (02:50)
Ooh. Perfect timing.

Mallory Herrin (02:53)
So great. but I did it, and we've been very blessed to be very successful. And my husband started working with us as well several

years ago, and we've just continue to grow. So that's why I'm here. the journey of how I got here, I really do enjoy helping small businesses. I think

the human parts of any work environment is like number one, super important and kind of gets overlooked a lot of the time. And if I can create amazing places to work while also helping a small business achieve its goals, that's all I want. I that's so fulfilling. I love it.

John Marshall (03:34)
Beautiful, beautiful. And a big part of that is around this knowledge transfer and candor and being able to give and receive feedback well and really I mean having a feedback culture that you start to build at these organizations. I mean early on, the earlier the better, right?

Mallory Herrin (03:57)
for sure.

John Marshall (03:59)
So

We t we talked about this in our our introduction call and just briefly before we got on the recording, how y organizations spend a lot of time teaching managers to give feedback, right? But almost no one teaches employees or even managers how to receive it. What are we missing in that?

Mallory Herrin (04:25)
believe there is an assumption generally that if you are very delicate with the way you provide the feedback, there isn't necessarily anything to do on the other side. Right? So if as a manager I've learned the tools, I know how to give the feedback, not make it personal, make it really objective, and I know the communication style this person prefers. So I can deliver it in the best way possible, then there's just

No other work to do. There's not a need to give training on the other side of how do you receive it gracefully. There's a huge disconnect. There's I don't think people are are really thinking about it. So if it's not even it's not even an afterthought, it's just not a thought at all. Then that's where we can see issues. Cause no matter how nice you are when you give the feedback, it means nothing if that person can't accept it.

John Marshall (05:21)
Hundred percent. I th I I view it as this like feedback is often viewed as this one way conversation, right? Like I have some direction, some way to be able to coach my team, my peer, even my leader, right? To behave differently, to interact with me differently, to

improve their performance, etc.

But I think that's just a complete misconception, right? That it's th maybe the delivery is one way, but how you get to future forward solutions is through dialogue. Right? It has to be heard and then expanded upon and committed to for the feedback to actually make a difference when I look at it.

Mallory Herrin (06:17)
I completely agree. And there's just no thought given to the other side of it. I have started to see in my work, we do a lot of trainings, I speak at a lot of conferences, and I have seen more of a request to have trainings specifically on feedback that also include the recipients part. So there's definitely some traction going on. there's more of an awareness of the need for it, but it's largely stemming from

really messed up perceptions of Gen Z in the workplace and an assumption that they well they don't want to take feedback. They don't listen. They don't they won't hear it, which is not the case. But regardless of the reason why it's coming about, I'd like to see that people are actually giving it some more thought about you can make it great all you want in the delivery, but it has to be that two way street, that dialogue, you have to be able to receive it.

John Marshall (07:16)
Certainly, certainly. And our feedback training at Humessence includes it as well. We won't just teach delivering feedback. We s we start every training with receiving feedback as the priority, really. So

Mallory Herrin (07:32)
That's excellent. Yes.

John Marshall (07:33)
I'm I'm totally with you. But let's just bring the audience into w w why that's important. Right. So y you know, in in your book, Mallory, w what

typically causes people to become defensive, shut down, or stop listening whenever they're receiving feedback.

Mallory Herrin (07:55)
It's really easy to. we, generally speaking, have so much of our identity within the work that we do. If you think about it, if you're out in the in the wild somewhere and you meet someone and that natural part of the conversation is, what do you do? We're gonna give what we do for a living. We're not gonna say, Well, in the mornings I do yoga for about half an hour and then I have some toast. We

John Marshall (08:19)
Yeah.

Mallory Herrin (08:20)
all understand that's a what do you do for work, right? And

When you go to work, I really believe that you want to do a good job. I've I've questioned this at times, but generally speaking, everybody wants to do a good job when they go to work. They don't sit there thinking, you know what I'm gonna do today? Really bad. I'm just not gonna do a good job at all. No one does that. We want to work in a place where we feel valued, where we can contribute and be successful.

So when we're looking at it in terms of feedback, we make it really personal. Even even if it's objective language and it's about the work product, not the person, it

feels personal to us because that is our identity. So if you're telling me that I'm not doing a good job in this way, whether I agree with you or not, you're attacking me and my worth. Which isn't the case, but there's not intentional

discussion around how do you separate those two things.

John Marshall (09:24)
Hmm. Mm-hmm. like the internal work of receiving feedback well. Like this

Mallory Herrin (09:34)
Yeah.

John Marshall (09:35)
isn't just this isn't just some framework that you know you can pull up on your screen when you hop into a performance review. This is something that needs to be like cultivated internally, intentionally as well.

Mallory Herrin (09:48)
Mm. Yeah.

John Marshall (09:50)
Okay. Okay. I I s I see I see where you're coming from and a thread comes through on mindset, right? That that there's this like this difference between like the spectrum of right a growth and a fixed mindset to whether to how much that feedback is going to shake your identity, right?

Mallory Herrin (10:12)
Yeah.

John Marshall (10:13)
So I would I would assume, you know, you're saying kind of the people more towards the growth mindset that are more primed in that way, you know, it's it's gonna be a little bit more elastic, right? Your identity. So you might receive it, even if it stings a little bit, you then tune into like, okay, what can I learn here to do better? But the fixed mindset is I receive it and I break because I'm I was fixed in this identity. Something is coming conscious.

is contrary to this identity, so hence I am broken.

Mallory Herrin (10:48)
Yeah, and it's I feel okay, not everybody w is in a growth mindset. And not everybody

John Marshall (10:53)
Mm-hmm.

Mallory Herrin (10:55)
is thinking about the future and where they wanna be. Maybe they're where they are where they are now is where they wanna be. However, it's still important to maintain that that flexibility, that growth mindset when it comes to feedback. Not only if someone is in a fixed mindset, not only does it kind of break them, they're

very resistant to accepting it. So there's not an agreement there. And I believe that even if you initially don't agree with some form of feedback that you're getting, perception is still reality and you still play a part in it. So if I think, for example, I am just a ray of sunshine and a delight to work with, but then someone tells me, actually you're a little intimidating, this was a pretty blunt piece

like of information you gave us and that doesn't jive with us real well. If I say, Well, you're wrong. Look look at me. I am wonderful. I'm a

delight. I'm not going to accept that piece of feedback. I'm doing myself a disservice. I have contributed in some way to the perception of others and their experience with me. And that is how the perception is reality.

So even if I initially am hesitant to say, like, I don't really see that, or I don't agree with you, I have to take a step back. If I'm in a fixed mindset, that's just gonna hurt me and I'm gonna be closed off.

John Marshall (12:22)
Mm-hmm.

Mallory Herrin (12:23)
If I'm in a growth mindset, I can get curious about it. I can start

John Marshall (12:27)
Hm.

Mallory Herrin (12:27)
asking, that's interesting. Please, you know, what actions have I done? Like how what led you to feel that way?

Getting the bridging the gap between a fixed and a growth mindset I think takes an ability to be honestly reflective with yourself and understanding with that internal work, this doesn't mean you're a bad person. It doesn't mean that you're not worthy. It it it just is a reflection of others' experiences with you. That might have been long

John Marshall (13:00)
Mm.

Mallory Herrin (13:01)
winded, sorry.

John Marshall (13:03)
No. This is this is a place, this is a place to to expand. That's why we have these long form content modalities so that we can get lost in the story. So please, please, let your perspectives take flight here. So this this bridging the gap. I'm I'm curious.

Well, first before now I said the word curious, I agree with you. I think curiosity really helps

people get into a place of out of defensiveness, almost looking at it objectively, like let's solve this puzzle

Mallory Herrin (13:40)
Yes.

John Marshall (13:41)
together versus you are attacking me. I need to figure out how to get out of this. It's like, okay, let me take a step back and solve this little conversational puzzle that we have here and see what I like to say in in our trainings is like mining mining the gold, mining the gems, right?

Is like even if someone hands you a whole lump of rocks, right? But if there's one gem in it that could support your development, it's like that curiosity and those questions you started asking like helps get to the gem. So I like to say that

as feedback receivers, like we are responsible for getting something helpful out of the feedback. And and

Mallory Herrin (14:34)
I agree. I totally agree.

John Marshall (14:37)
I think that kind of takes the the pressure, a little bit of the pressure off the feedback giver all of the time. If the receiver understands that they're responsible for supporting them and getting to a place that's actually helpful. So it becomes this two way conversation,

right?

But I wanna come back to this this place, this internal work place where you get curious about yourself, right? can you think about a time in in your life or your career where you know, where something hit you and you felt like it was time to get curious about yourself and you started doing a little bit more of that self awareness or like deeper self-reflection type of work?

Mallory Herrin (15:24)
Yeah, it's happened a few times. So initially being handed HR and having no clue what I was doing, that was rough. So it was a smaller company, only about a hundred and fifty employees or so. But having someone so inexperienced and I feel like I mean, I was in my early twenties, I was just a kid. So not knowing what I was doing and being given that much responsibility has a great way to just make you feel like crap.

Because you're

John Marshall (15:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mallory Herrin (15:55)
face to face with your inability on a daily basis. and I've always been sensitive to feedback, and it wasn't that I was necessarily getting it at the time, but if I was getting it, it was most definitely like, hey, you need to do a little better here and learn some stuff there. Right? So

John Marshall (16:14)
Mm.

Mallory Herrin (16:15)
I I first recognized, I am sensitive to feedback. And I'm a more emotional person.

I don't want to cry at work. I want to be composed. So if that's I I have to be in the right frame of mind to hear it. And if I'm waiting till my performance review to find out how well I'm doing instead of asking for it myself throughout the year, then I'm have a much larger potential for being being very, very upset in that performance review. Now thankfully I will say

I greatly improved my skills. This was a very long time ago. But it

John Marshall (16:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mallory Herrin (16:55)
it gave me an awareness that I needed to work on some things. So, number one, being more consistent and intentional about getting feedback so I can actually do something with it in a timely fashion. And finding out what does it take to get where I'm going? And you know, asking what is it that you

are not seeing in me that's gonna prevent me from getting there. And I have this philosophy that I've used ever since then and it's been like over twenty years. I don't ask questions that I'm not prepared to hear the answers to.

If I know that I'm not prepared to hear an answer that I won't like, that is an indicator to me that I need to do some more internal work to get to a place where I can kind of separate my identity from the the criticism that I might get. I think it's it's worked very well for me, but it wouldn't have if I wasn't doing the second part of figuring out what do I need to know about myself and do for myself.

To be able to ask the question. Because that's a critical component. I think when you are doing the internal work, you're gonna be the seeker of feedback. You're gonna go solicit that. And then of course you have to you have to act on it. And you

John Marshall (18:20)
Yep.

Mallory Herrin (18:20)
because it's the same way. If someone's delivering feedback to to you, but then you're not doing any action on it, or you're giving the feedback and then no one's taking action on it, what are we doing? We're

We're not being effective at all. Nothing's getting done. We're just making like jabs at each other at this point.

John Marshall (18:40)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it has to result in some commitment. But what I'm hearing from your story is like it took this it took you getting real with yourself, right? And saying, Listen, I'm emotional and I don't like receiving feedback. This isn't comfortable for me. And I guarantee that

I won't even t I'll say a lot of people listening right now would agree with you and that would resonate with them.

And then it's this process of like once you got real with yourself, then you were able to now it's named. So like let me do this work and what it this internal work that it may require for me to start shifting to a growth mindset. And once my mindset's prepped, not just saying, Okay, now my mindset's prepped and I'm ready whenever feedback comes to me. I'm ready. But it's more of like, okay, my mindset.

Prepped, so now I have to really practice what I'm preaching here. So I'm going to be the one to proactively seek feedback, not only for my growth and development, but to train this growth mindset and this muscle.

to convince it that it's safe and you have the capabilities now, and that was to go do the damn thing and get feedback. So then once you kind of started building that muscle and telling your subconscious that it's okay, we got this, it's been now integrated into something that's really led to where you are today, it sounds

Mallory Herrin (20:36)
Yes, very much so. I and I will say I can still be sensitive to it. So I keep it top

John Marshall (20:41)
Course.

Mallory Herrin (20:42)
of mind and I find that if I'm in control, if I'm the one consistently seeking feedback, then I know how I'll handle it versus if I'm if it's just like a random surprise. I also since I do speaking at conferences and things, I get rated all the time.

So there's like a survey about how well I did that I get from, you know, all the people that that attended, which, you know, that's people are not shy about what they put on one of those surveys. So I'm gonna get frequently throughout the year too. And of course with my clients I always want to ask them what their experience is like. I have shifted it to you know, starting at a place where I really sucked at my job and I was fearful that I would just lose it.

And I did, to I need to learn 'cause I don't ever want that experience to happen again. And I'm I want to be the best I can be at what I'm doing. And that has changed the trajectory of my life and it has made me a little bit more ambitious and not quite ever satisfied 'cause I'm always like, Great, let's go to the next step now. but right?

John Marshall (21:59)
That's a different episode.

Mallory Herrin (22:01)
That's but that's

I don't feel like you could truly be successful without having that internal work and being open to feedback and doing something about it. And I believe that feedback is a kindness. If it's coming from someone that genuinely cares about you, they they want to see you succeed, they want you to do a good job, they're gonna tell you when something's wrong. If I don't care about this person, then I'm not gonna take the time to bother them with it because who cares? I don't I don't care if they stay or go, I don't care if they perform or not.

Remembering that when you're receiving feedback can help quite a bit because that's that's information that will serve me my entire career if I act on it. Again, maybe I don't have to agree with it at first, but I need to recognize there's I've done something to contribute to that.

John Marshall (22:50)
Mm hmm. Taking responsibility. Right? Almost like that could be a book, if it's not already. Radical responsibility.

Mallory Herrin (23:00)
You should write it.

John Marshall (23:02)
No, someone someone listening to the it's in the ether now. Someone's someone's gonna write it. Not me. So

Taking responsibility, taking ownership, doing the internal work. So we've we spent a lot of time on like what it takes individually to like start your receiving feedback well journey. Right. One thing I wanted to add is it have you read Thanks for the feedback by chance?

Mallory Herrin (23:32)
I have not.

John Marshall (23:34)
y add that add that to your reading list. It's I maybe

early two thousands or something like that. and listeners as well. We'll link it in the show notes. Douglas Stone, I believe it's Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen.

wrote the book and it's and it's essentially an entirely research backed book about receiving feedback well. And they talk through some of the things that you've already brought up. And the number one feedback trigger is identity. Right? What we talked about and what comes up in in that book. The other two triggers they s they have are truth triggers. So this, you know, 10% of this is false, so the whole thing must be false, right? I don't believe any of

it because this detail of the story is is wrong. Right. So they dismiss what could be the gem in there. The next one is relationship triggers. So, well, who are you to give me feedback? I thought you had

Mallory Herrin (24:35)
Mm.

John Marshall (24:35)
my back, right?

So that can be an another thing, but identity is the like the strongest, the strongest one that we've already covered. So highly recommend that you check that book out as and listeners as well. I listened to it. I feel like for me it was just a little bit of a dense of a read, but anyway, anyway. Where where I'm interested in now is like we talked about curiosity, we talked about growth mindset.

What are your thoughts on what emotional intelligence plays on both sides, both giving and receiving feedback?

Mallory Herrin (25:14)
It is so critical. I even though there's a something on the part of me as the recipient that I need to do to pre prepared for feedback and to take it well, that doesn't mean that someone has, you know, free will to just as much as they want treat me poorly when they're giving me the feedback. It's still very important that the individual giving it is sensitive to how you're going to take it, what you're going to feel. Now

we can't avoid difficult conversations, they still need to happen if you're just avoiding it altogether. The problem compounds, it gets worse over time, and we end up in a a spot where we have to really like turn the ship around and try to fix it, which can take a lot longer. So

John Marshall (25:57)
Mm-hmm.

Mallory Herrin (25:57)
the delivery of it, the tone, the format, the method that you're going to use to communicate it, all of those things are really important. And I think that emotional intelligence plays a huge part in that. So

If I'm going to give feedback to someone, I need to recognize if I have a tendency to be a little blunt and maybe this is a person that doesn't do as well with that direct of communication, whereas someone else, they don't want any flowery language. They they're like, just get to the point, tell me what I need to know and move on. So tailoring the message to that person is really important. And without emotional intelligence,

you can't effectively do that and then you're just gonna go around ruining all the relationships you built because you're being a huge jerk.

John Marshall (26:50)
Mm-hmm. It's the right the the greatest form of empathy. Meeting people where they are.

Mallory Herrin (26:57)
Yeah.

John Marshall (26:59)
And so from the from the giver, it's essential to be able to like just have awareness of the situation, both situation, social and like personal awareness of the person in front of you so that you can now.

Do do you want to always control for the perfect time? Like there's never gonna be a perfect time to deliver the feedback. And I think proximity is a variable that's important, right? So it's it's like, yes, use your judgment to deliver the feedback in a way that someone's going to hear it, but

I wouldn't but don't over analyze it to then wait until the next one on one or the the quarterly one on one where you actually give feedback or the performance review. Like so much diminishes like as proximity, you know, erodes. Do you agree?

Mallory Herrin (28:00)
Yeah. A hundred

percent. And I see this when people are they they think they're being empathetic and sensitive to someone's situation and I see this play out a lot where it's we have this person that we need to let go. That it's not working out here, they're not doing a good job. We've maybe had conversations with this person, maybe we haven't, but it's the holidays. It's mid November.

John Marshall (28:27)
Mm.

Mallory Herrin (28:28)
So we don't want to ruin

The holiday season, we're gonna wait and have this conversation with them after the new year. That is so terrible. Like on the one hand, yes, please don't ruin my Christmas. But on the other hand, this is a person that's likely really stressed out. They're probably feeling like you know, I'm not doing exactly what I need to be. There's some disconnect there, there's you know, n it's not all rainbows and sunshine.

someone my my superior is like not super happy with it. You can feel it. And that's

John Marshall (29:04)
Mm.

Mallory Herrin (29:05)
a horrible feeling to go home to. And I don't believe in work-life balance. It's you should balance them, but I can't go home and shut off everything that's stressing me from my work day. And I can't show up to work and shut off everything that's stressing me my home life. It's just the one life. They're integrated. So you have a person that you are doing a disservice to and you're you're not being kind.

By holding that back, because they're gonna keep that feeling of anxiety and pressure and uncertainty until you finally do have that conversation with them. What I would recommend instead is you go ahead and have the conversation. Now, if you if you're in a position to say, We're gonna wait to your last day will be January 7th or whatever. If you could do something like that so they at least know you're relieving a lot of that pressure.

And everyone's on the same page about what this is really gonna be, which is all a very long winded way of saying that sensitivity is important, but there is a going too far in terms of being sensitive.

John Marshall (30:14)
Certainly, certainly. It's you know, there's an element of just rip the band-aid off and and make it make it happen, right? And one of my one of my coaches brought this article to us and it was it was very interesting. It was called it was the some type some variation of a title of the difference between being nice and being kind. Right.

And it was this like this nicety is more of the I guess that maybe the cover the cover page, right? The nicety is, well, like this this looks nice. This alleviates things on the surface. This deals with the issue for now, right? This supports their happiness for now. Right, but kindness is

like genuine, authentic, direct, honest, like and where you can have like tough conversations and deliver this information, but the kindness is around like your intention. Right? It's like

Okay, if we're having a conversation about letting this person go, like my intention behind the proximity is to not blindside. My intention is to write alleviate uncertainty right now and let this person move on with their lives. I mean the kindness is sitting my employee down after the presentation.

to take them through where they dropped the ball and how the message could have been better received by the audience.

Right? It's it's

Mallory Herrin (32:50)
Yeah.

John Marshall (32:50)
not just, well, you know, you could have done you could have done a better job, but you know, we can talk about it at some point. That might be nice to not put them on their heels and not make them feel bad about the presentation they just gave, but it's not kind.

Mallory Herrin (33:07)
Mm.

John Marshall (33:09)
Right. So we talked emotional intelligence, growth mindset, doing the inner work. So now the different ways that feedback is received and really just the different communication styles that are now in the workplace with what's it like five or six generations that are in today's workplace.

Mallory Herrin (33:33)
Yeah.

John Marshall (33:34)
So you know, even when the message is reasonable and you're doing everything that you can in an emotionally intelligent fashion, different people are gonna have different expectations about how, when, why, and where feedback should happen. So I'm curious in in your view, like which generational differences around feedback are are real and we should be talking about here and which are just stereotypes that

Mallory Herrin (34:06)
Sure. Well, I mean it's always a little dangerous to generalize, but in doing that, I've found that people in the the baby boomer generation, they've been at this a long time. They are at the place in their career where they're giving guidance to younger workers and it can make them a little defensive.

when they're getting constructive criticism, especially when it's coming from someone younger. Not all

John Marshall (34:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mallory Herrin (34:41)
the time, of course, but generally speaking, they're toward the end of their career. They're not necessarily thinking about how can I continue to improve and get to the next level. They're more about, I want to pass this knowledge on. I want to help younger folks to be as successful as I have been, which is excellent.

But that can make them a little bit difficult to talk to. I have found that Gen X, they're really great at receiving feedback for the most part. Generally speaking, they just want to be left alone, let me do my work, which understandable. But they're also sandwiched between, you know, caring for elder parents, caring for children, and they've got a lot going on. So I found generally speaking, if you're able to just cut to the chase with them a little bit more.

And tell them what you want specifically, they'll they'll do it. Millennials, that's my generation. And we used to get blamed for all sorts of stuff and now it's Gen X or Gen Z. It just kinda shifts every generation. But

John Marshall (35:44)
Yeah, definitely.

Mallory Herrin (35:47)
I I feel like w and I'm an elder millennial, argue with my husband out about if I actually am, versus like I'm pretty sure I'm Gen X, but whatever, I'll take it.

I I can't get Botox done regularly, so I'll just take it where I can get it, you know? And we have lived through so many once in a lifetime events and catastrophes and disasters. We're just tired. So we just wanna know when can we stop paying bills? Is the apocalypse here? Can we do that? And in the meantime, since the answer's no

We're we're still very much climbing the ladder, still ambitious, still, you know, a little jaded, but wanna make an impact on the world. I find that generally speaking there is an easier time delivering feedback to millennials. And with Gen Z, again th there's been this shift from, man, you millennials are awful and all about yourselves and well now we're blaming Gen Z for it. I find that they are

easiest to give feedback to because generally speaking they're like sponges. They're the the younger ones in the workforce and they they're very much about like how can I get to the next level. Their thing though is they will challenge you. They'll push back. So if you're giving them feedback about well, you know, this is a hybrid environment but you really need to put in your time in the office, you're probably gonna hear from them, okay, but why? If I'm just as productive working remotely

Why do you care? You you have to give them the why behind it, which you should be doing with everybody. But be prepared for them to just kind of push back a little bit so you have answers. And look, the thing is, they are never asking for things that nobody wants. The stuff they want is the stuff all of us want. We've just been too afraid to say it. And they'll bring it up and

John Marshall (37:48)
Mm-hmm.

Mallory Herrin (37:49)
go after it. Of course these are all generalizations and I found those to be true.

largely. That said, all of that can be rectified by developing a a personal relationship with that person.

John Marshall (38:03)
Mm.

Mallory Herrin (38:03)
That's where you're gonna find out what's the best way to give them the feedback. What are things they're really interested in, what are things they're more sensitive to. Do they prefer an in person meeting? Do I need to take them to a public place where there are witnesses if I'm gonna give them some difficult feedback?

Hopefully not.

John Marshall (38:24)
Right. Well, I mean, again, you've come back to emotional intelligence and the the ability to develop relationships and understand understand people. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what generation you're in, if you get to that level of relationship that

you'll understand how this person receives feedback. But from a from a generational perspective, it was interesting. Like as a as a millennial myself, I'm, you know, I'm considering I'm just considering what what you said and just thinking about my my own perspective in several times that I've received feedback. And I think the way I received feedback was greatly influenced by sports.

I think my like it was very it was very so the it was very baby boomer mentality, right, when it comes to the the football field, right? Like go run. Not don't tell me why. Right? Drop

Mallory Herrin (39:30)
Yeah. Yeah.

John Marshall (39:34)
it and go run and go run a lap until I tell you when, right? Now

But I think that's that's also I think a lot of baby boomers and Gen Xers are like understanding that, you know, Gen Z wants to hear the why, but they're just like tired, you know? Like

Mallory Herrin (39:52)
Yeah.

John Marshall (39:52)
we've you know, we've spent our careers like follow like not just following orders, but you know, being I think there's something, there's a balance, right? Like there's this when you when you question everything

Like it slows down the direction of your team, like how quickly you can execute things. Now, I think there's also a balance where some the kind of generalized put your head down and get your work done, baby boomer mentality.

is useful in certain ways to to actually like grit to have grit and move through challenges and not and not just take a step back to question everything when you run into your first challenge. So I see like a lot of value in that mentality and it was really valuable on on the football field. Right. So I always found myself to handle the initial sting well and get almost

almost like angry motivated to get better. Right. And but not everyone's right, not everyone's like that. So I think a lot of baby boomers and Gen Xers that are more aware of like what you said about Gen Z and how the general like millennial wants to understand right. I think they're op a lot of them are open to it.

But they get they get beat up. Like I hear like a lot of senior leaders that get beat up with the whys, right?

Mallory Herrin (41:34)
Yeah.

John Marshall (41:35)
So it's, you know, after you hear, well, why explain this direction every time that you send something downline, it's like you they get to the point where they're just like because I said so. Right?

Mallory Herrin (41:51)
Right.

John Marshall (41:52)
And then that

then that creates a whole relational ripple downline and you know, all these things happen and I

You know, I have multiple clients that are in this scenario right now. From the senior leader side experiencing all of the whys, and fr from a junior to middle like middle management side that's has her leader directly saying to her that bec like because I said so, right? That's just not not great practice, but it it creates this this I

I I just have this belief that like everything lies on a spectrum, right? Like I think every I think every generation has wisdom that like we can all utilize to move forward better together. So while there's while we're talking about, you know, delivering feedback and understanding some of the generalizations that might help you connect with someone from a like first basis.

it ultimately r leads to like the relationship growing, getting better, you more deeply understanding that person. But I think it's there's also something here, now just shifting back to the receiver.

It's like also understanding the generation you're receiving from. Right?

Mallory Herrin (43:15)
Yes.

John Marshall (43:17)
You know, understanding the way that they give feedback that sometimes it's not personal that they're just leaving it at sheer direction and not telling you the why. Right? It's because they took sheer direction well.

Mallory Herrin (43:32)
Mm.

John Marshall (43:33)
And that's how they were led. So it's I I feel like there's this

like level of empathy and compassion that just has to go in each direction and help us learn from

Mallory Herrin (43:45)
Yes.

John Marshall (43:47)
the strengths of every generation.

Mallory Herrin (43:51)
I agree. And I'm someone that I I don't do as well with a very direct communication style and I have a tendency to take it personally. So, you know, and in consulting you've got to work with all kinds of personalities, just like if you weren't in consulting, wherever you work, if there's people, there's a range. And I have to recognize that about myself and remind myself when I'm talking to this particular person.

they're gonna be a little bit more direct, a little more authoritative than I would like in how they're communicating with me. That's not about me. That is how they are in the world. If I know I'm sensitive to it, I need to manage that myself. And you know, there's all kinds of tips and tricks you can do to like calm yourself as you're hearing the message. I do think that millennials especially were told growing up, you know, because I said so.

So that's where this need to understand comes from, as well as a need for things to be as efficient as possible. You know, we had like

John Marshall (44:53)
Mm.

Mallory Herrin (44:54)
that technology boom when we were growing up. So we've seen like both sides of it. So we're like, let's speed it up, let's move it along, let's be efficient. But it it can be fatiguing for a leader. Just generally speaking, any any people manager is exhausted. Managing people

It's a lot of work. Totally different skill set. Takes a ton of time. Hard to do well all of the time. So having the emotional intelligence of the situation that your leader is in, very important because you need to be graceful and give them a little of forgiveness. Have that relationship so you know if they didn't deliver just exactly how you love it, they're entitled to do that. It's you know, it's just one conversation. You could let it go for this one conversation. If it comes a pattern

John Marshall (45:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mallory Herrin (45:41)
that's a little different.

When a leader is exhausted with explaining the why, I think the best thing they can do is just be honest and be vulnerable about it and say, Hey, you asked me why a whole lot. And I get it. I get why you want to know. However, I just need you to trust me and let me tell you why. It slows me down to have these conversations, to develop you and have you think more strategically. I want you

To look at the big picture and say, okay, if this is the decision, what are the ways that that can help us? Maybe what are some roadblocks that we might see and how can I overcome those? Come to the table with me with that information. It's not as accusatory, and you'll start recognizing yourself the why behind the decisions where you're not always getting a detailed explanation.

John Marshall (46:36)
That's beautiful. You you hit back on this responsibility thread, right? Because like I think right there a lot of those whys are lazy, really.

Mallory Herrin (46:50)
Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (46:51)
It's like

What if what if you actually did some some homework to understand the why before it's even really coming to you? And I think that direction, like that conversation you just played out, could be the best thing that that leader's done for that employee in their career.

Mallory Herrin (47:11)
Absolutely. I when you're able to develop someone in their skills, even if it's like maybe a little hurtful for them to heal hear at the at the beginning, they'll use that their entire career. And once you have kind of going back to that growth mindset and you are taking the accountability and understanding I'm

not a victim to circumstances. I'm in control here. I control

John Marshall (47:35)
Mm-hmm.

Mallory Herrin (47:36)
my life, my future, this trajectory. That is such an important

pivotal understanding that you need to have to shift. Once you recognize okay, so then I need to do the homework, I need to do the work, I need to figure this out, this is what I need to do, it gets easier and easier to do it and it I mean it drastically changes your future. At

John Marshall (48:01)
Hmm.

Mallory Herrin (48:02)
least I think so.

John Marshall (48:03)
No, I yeah, I I'm with you. I'm with you. So y you mentioned something before, like there are strategies, like whenever you receive something that triggers you, something sets you off, to really get grounded in the moment. So when when someone hears feedback that immediately activates them or frustrates them, what should they do in that in that second, in that moment?

Mallory Herrin (48:29)
So there are physical cues that you can use immediately because your central nervous system is now getting involved because we're having an emotional response. But this is not, you know, we have the the fight, flight, freeze responses, but we are not in physical danger. Like there's not a bear around, we're just having a conversation. But our bodies are still gonna react that way. So if you can do these teeny tiny things, no one else is even gonna notice. So number one, be aware when you're having a reaction that's a little more emotional and you're getting a little defensive. You

You want a clear head and you can't communicate effectively if you're being defensive. So deep breaths is definitely something that you can do easily. Breathing is essential. But also a teeny tiny bit of movement. So if you can set up or st stand up if you've been sitting, that's great. Other way around that's great too. That could be weird in some situations. So even just like wiggling your toes and your shoes, that right, if someone you're having this conversation and they just immediately stand up, that's what are you doing?

John Marshall (49:27)
Yeah, that's what

I was picturing.

Mallory Herrin (49:30)
So

little movements like that. If you have a beverage that's not alcoholic,

John Marshall (49:36)
Mm.

Mallory Herrin (49:37)
taking a sip of that beverage. and even like some people have like little worry stones that they can keep in a pocket, just kind of like rubbing one of those. Those like teeny tiny cues can help you I need to slow down, regulate my nervous system and

Now I need to listen. And we always talk about active listening and it really is important. Everyone's sick to death of hearing it. But if we stop trying to read that person's mind and we start paying attention, it allows us to get more curious and will naturally come out of that defensive state of being once we turn the curiosity on. And now we can have a more productive conversation where we have a win-win situation.

John Marshall (50:23)
So take the breath, plant your feet, wiggle your toes, however it's going to help you like move that energy. And

Mallory Herrin (50:33)
Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (50:37)
I always say this to my clients, like it's it's it's wrong or you're you're go you're approaching it the wrong way to try to change the mind with the mind in the moment.

So it's like using the body to change the mind is much more effective than saying, I am realizing now mentally that I am mentally frustrated, right? So let me do something about it. It just it just doesn't work like that. So

Mallory Herrin (51:06)
Yeah, it's

John Marshall (51:07)
I I totally agree. This this physical cue makes perfect sense. But you know, what if

What if the feedback just feels incomplete, unfair, or inaccurate? Just like this is BS. What should they do then?

Mallory Herrin (51:26)
It is still on you to dig into it more. So finding out what are specific examples of what you're talking about and what was the effect, what resulted because of this? I think we often forget to ask the second part of that question. If you feel like it was unfair, I think it's okay to speak up and say so. Now you have to recognize

This is the person that is directing the work, so I need to do what they're asking me to do. But if I can communicate with you how I'm feeling, not from a place of feeling attacked or defensive, but like, hey, I've thought about this, I've reflected. I don't really think that's accurate. But let's talk about it because we want to find alignment and get on the same page. That is very, very different than, you know, being upset in a meeting and be like, that's not true, that's not me, I didn't do that.

When you are doing it as more of that curiosity and that let's get on the same page, I just see it different. That's a huge one. Also recognizing and accepting acceptance is huge. That you're not always going to agree. And that's okay. It's like when you

John Marshall (52:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mallory Herrin (52:43)
give someone corrective action and then at the bottom of the form there's like a place for them to sign. And they'll say, Well,

John Marshall (52:49)
Mm-hmm.

Mallory Herrin (52:49)
I don't agree, so I'm not gonna sign it. Well, that's

Your signature doesn't mean you agree with it, but okay. It's the acceptance that maybe I'm never gonna see it that way, but that perception's still reality. What am I gonna do about it?

John Marshall (53:06)
Mm. So it's not even like seeing the facts at face value. It's like appreciating the perception for what it could be, where it's coming from. And

Like really trying to get to the data behind the way that they're interpreting whatever they're giving

to you. And

Mallory Herrin (53:27)
Yeah.

John Marshall (53:27)
whether that data is an observable fact and something that you can actually change or is perception directed or oriented, it's useful.

Mallory Herrin (53:39)
And you should still stand up for yourself. You should still

John Marshall (53:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mallory Herrin (53:41)
be communicative. I'm not saying just like let anybody roll over you. That's not what I'm saying at all. But there's a point at which you have to give up the like just ignore that I have to accept this feedback. If that makes sense.

John Marshall (53:57)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's just again, radical responsibility. And I feel like these conversations always default to like one up, one down relationships, right? Manager, employee, VP manager, w whatever, right? But where I see a gap in a lot of organizations is peer to peer feedback. Huge gap.

Mallory Herrin (54:26)
Yeah.

John Marshall (54:27)
in peer to peer and employee to leader feedback. The vast majority of the time that I see employee to leader feedback is just through a three sixty feedback survey.

never live in the moment and you know, I don't want to say never. There have been some cases where, you know, I've had clients that had the courage to give their leader feedback. And, you know, that's a that's a gift as a leader, right? To get to get that feedback directly. But

I just think there's something here that these conversations need to evolve to how are we developing a peer-to-peer feedback culture? Like how are we developing a culture where it's not just safe to provide your peer feedback and set boundaries and provide more accurate feedback, but it's expected,

Mallory Herrin (55:28)
Mm.

John Marshall (55:28)
right? And

You know, I think there's I just think there's something there that that we're missing. Right? So it's like what happens when organizations train managers but not receivers? And now everyone's ha had the the training, but I think what's missing is like the expectation, right? Like there's an expectation for managers to provide feedback. And

Mallory Herrin (55:57)
Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (55:57)
that's

Done in it's usually in manager performance cycles, right? How well are you providing feedback to your employees? There's always a question about that when a leader's understanding how they're performing. But how many times on a on an annual performance review or a competency model do you see like, I regularly provide feedback to my peers? I regularly provide feedback to my to my manager.

You know, like what are we leaving on the table by not incorporating that in the system?

Mallory Herrin (56:35)
a lot because your your relationships with the people you work with are the biggest factor in your satisfaction with your work. So developing relationships has to happen peer to peer too. You don't have to be best friends. But it's important to have an open dialogue continuously with how do we best work together. You can't read my mind. If there's a particular thing you're doing or saying that I'm like hey hey wait.

Especially if it's offensive. I need to tell you that. And then if there's something I'm doing or maybe not doing, and the effect that that has on you, you've got to tell me that. I can't fix something I don't know is broken. And you spend the majority of your waking hours at work. So you see your your work people more often than you see your own family a lot of the time. So doesn't everyone wanna have a pleasant experience? It it

Across the board. We're on the same team together. You don't want to go to work and it sucks. I don't want to go to work and it sucks. How can we do this together? I believe that a lot of people aren't getting that kind of regular feedback because it's not ingrained in like the system that we use. It's not something you get on performance reviews. But even if that were the case and you did, that's only once or twice a year. This needs to

John Marshall (57:58)
Mm-hmm.

Mallory Herrin (57:58)
be a continual thing. I believe

When I'm working with clients and their employees, I they'll bring me issues, right? 'cause I'm an HR. And so I'll

John Marshall (58:08)
Mm-hmm.

Mallory Herrin (58:08)
ask that individual, is this something that you feel empowered to have a discussion on? Or would you like me to help advocate for you? And I can either go into that discussion with the two parties, or maybe that looks like I'm gonna go talk to leadership about it, and maybe this is something we're monitoring. But I think an and Gen Z

is getting better at this, I believe.

John Marshall (58:33)
Mm.

Mallory Herrin (58:34)
you have to have be your own best advocate and then advocate for the others you're working with. And if you're doing that, you're going to have regular conversations. And it doesn't have to be this big thing. It doesn't have to be, this is a ch I've waited so long, this is now gonna be a really uncomfortable, difficult conversation to have. If you're doing it more in the moment and regularly, you're avoiding that situation. But again it goes back to it's a kindness. It

c can't read your mind. You you have to tell them when something's not working.

John Marshall (59:06)
Mm. Mm. Agreed. I mean, if just imagine, right, just imagine a a workplace where we

you know, where the default isn't to get defensive to right, defend our our area, our workload, our our value, and where the goal is to just understand how people work well together.

Right. What what do people what do the other people need, right? What do they need to know about me to be able to satisfy my needs and understand the way I work? Right? It's

Like there are so many what ifs in all in these fears that hold back all of the conversations that would create so much understanding. So that's why I I say the system, because like if it's not prioritized at the system level, like it's a lot to ask an individual to overcome those fears that's not supported by the system.

Mallory Herrin (1:00:16)
In that case too, which is totally true. That's very fair. You have to equip people with the tools to be able to do that. And if we're talking about it being an expectation, then on the leaders part, they can check in with their team weekly if they want to, like, hey, how are things going as feedback flow and what have you told each other? There was there's this book by the Arvinger Institute called Leadership and Self Deception and I recommend it for anybody, even if you're not in a leadership position.

But it it really gets to the heart of the that identity piece. So my behavior at work is because I have a a need or desire to be seen as this, the subject matter expert, the very friendly, helpful one, all these different kind of archetypes that we have. When you understand and can be empathetic to it, it's gonna make it a lot easier.

To have those conversations, but not everybody is on the same playing field. Not everybody has the same experiences or or training and tools to do it. So if you are able to invest in your people and give them that training and then make it a regular expectation, that's awesome. Then we then we're gonna get to that place where we all wanna work where everybody genuinely enjoys it here. I think too, going back to what I said earlier, managers are very exhausted though, so you know, adding one more thing to their plate can be rough.

John Marshall (1:01:45)
Certainly, certainly. Well, we've covered a lot of ground today and just like really really zoomed in on the nuances of receiving feedback well, the things that can get in the way of that, the things that support that. But as we like really put a bow on this topic, I would love to hear what you wish everyone understood about others.

when entering a feedback conversation.

Mallory Herrin (1:02:19)
Okay. I wish they would understand that that is another human being too. And as difficult as it can be to get constructive criticism, it's just as difficult to give it. And if we can see each other as humans on that level, it really breaks down tension. And it when you're using that emotional intelligence and empathy, I

I want I recognize this is difficult for you to tell me these things. I want to give you a soft landing too. I hope that you'll do the same for me. If we can recognize that in each other, that no one's going into this that's, you know, like unless we're giving positive feedback, no one's having a good time. So we don't need to make it worse than it is.

John Marshall (1:03:10)
Mm-hmm. And for for those of you that are not watching right now, my my dog tried to come in and join us for for the last question here.

Mallory Herrin (1:03:20)
I love dogs. I'm not mad at it.

John Marshall (1:03:23)
they g they these are my two my two my two coworkers here. I got got Inky and Leo over here on their bed. They they they started moving around for some reason at the the end of this episode. But I think

they wanted to they wanted to come put a bow on it as well and say that thank you. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for sharing

all that you have about your journey and your perspectives on receiving feedback. Well, we will have all of your information and ways for listeners to connect with you in the show notes. So listeners, again, Mallory is a human on the other side of these URLs. So don't hesitate to reach out, connect with her, and pick her brain about what she's do what she's doing with her in HR and how she can support your growing organization.

So with that again, Mallory, I just want to thank you so much for for joining us here. And you know, maybe we can expand to the other parts of the conversation we we've set we've set aside here in a future in a future talk.

Mallory Herrin (1:04:34)
Sure, thank you for having me.

John Marshall (1:04:36)
Of course. Listeners, thank you so much for tuning in and being advid listeners of the Present Professional Podcast. If

You rate us and review us where you're listening to podcasts right now. It really helps the show. So I would from the bottom of my heart thank you for taking the time to just leave a quick rating and review. We'll see you on the next episode, Present Professional. Take care.