The Wine Pair Podcast

Italian Wine Adventure #18: Primitivo!

• The Wine Pair • Season 1 • Episode 180

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This crowd-pleasing wine from Southern Italy’s Puglia region we think is underappreciated and not well-enough known - kind of like Puglia. Genetically identical to Zinfandel, Primitivo can be a rustic red, but when done well, it is fruity, juicy, and wonderfully balanced. There is a reason why Primitivo does so well in the heat of Southern Italy, and it’s the same reason why Zinfandel does so well in California. It is an early ripening grape that needs to reach high sugar levels so that it can create the high alcohol required to balance the fruit and tannin. Primitivo is a fantastic wine for your next cookout, barbecue, or elegant dinner. We also spend a little time talking about 25 cent one ounce pours available from Olive Garden. There is no other reason to go to Olive Garden, but we can’t blame you if you head there for the samples. Wines reviewed in this episode: 2023 Masseria Le Veli Orion Primitivo, 2023 Castello Monaci Pilùna Primitivo

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Show Notes

Episode #180: Italian Wine Adventure #18: Primitivo!!  00:00

Hello fellow Pair Heads! And welcome to The Wine Pair Podcast. I’m Joe, your sommelier of reasonably priced wine, and this is my wife and my wine pairing partner in crime, Carmela. And we are The Wine Pair!

If you are new to our podcast, here is what you can expect. If you love wine and want to find great wines at affordable prices, and you want to expand your wine horizons, and you want to have some laughs and fun while doing it - then you are in the right place! Each week we explore a different wine varietal, style, brand, or region of the winemaking world, and learn about what makes them worth knowing about. And then we taste 2-3 of those wines that are reasonably priced to let you know if they are worth your hard earned money. If that feels good to you, then we are happy you are here. And, we are proud to say that Decanter Magazine calls us fun, irreverent, chatty, and entertaining.

So, we are using our first tribe name this week, and a big thank you to Masked and Uncorked on IG for the name. If we use the name you gave us, we will give you the option of being on the podcast, so for those of you who have given us names, stayed tuned and we’ll reach out to you, and the rest of you can feel free to keep giving us name ideas and if we use yours, we will give you the option of being on the pod. How ‘bout dat.

For today’s subject, which is another Italian wine adventure, I’m a little surprised that we did not do this episode before our trip to Italy a few months ago, Carmela, because, for one, we were heading to Puglia to visit your family and second, we know that Primitivo is a very popular and famous wine from Puglia, and we could have prepped ourselves for the trip. But, better late than never, right?!?

Before we talk about Primitivo, though, we need to get to  . . .  wine in the news this week

WIne in the news this week: Olive Garden Gives 25 Cent Pours! 03:16


This week’s article comes from USA Today and was written by Greta Cross. The article is entitled: Does Olive Garden offer 25-cent wine samples? Yes, the rumors are true

There are so many things to unpack in this article just from the title alone, but let me give you a quick synopsis. First, this is not a new thing at all, so not sure why they are writing an article about it now cause it ain’t really news, but Olive Garden will give free 1 ounce pours of wine to people over 21, and, depending on the laws in the state they are in, they may have to charge 25 cents. For reference, a normal wine pour at a restaurant is usually about 5-6 ounces, so, if you are smart, like a TikTokker Greta mentions in her article, you can get 6 ounces of wine for like $1.50. Not sure if that is unusual or not, getting 6 ounces of free or basically free wine, but there is no stated limit on how many samples you can get. My guess is that i’s probably more about shame that’s going to stop you at some point, assuming we have any shame left to have in this country. 

So, lots to unpack here on so many levels, but I thought we would talk about  the whole 1 ounce pour thing, and then we can talk about some wine tasting strategies if you are heading to Olive Garden. And, just an editorial comment, as Italian Americans, we would just say that there is almost nothing authentically Italian about Olive Garden and we would never go even for 25 cent pours, but if it’s your thing and you like it or love it, we are all about that, and 25 cent pours sound like a crazy good reason to go regardless. 

I will also say that, fun fact, in 2006, Olive Garden sold the most wine of any restaurant in America. We don’t have any current data, but I would guess they are still likely at the top of the list, especially if they are giving out 25 cent pours. 

First, we’ll just say the 1 ounce pour is awesome. At a local wine bar here in Seattle called Chez Phinny, they offer 1 ounce, 3 ounce, and 5 ounces. Carmela, tell our friends what your experience was, cause you loved it. 

So, we believe in 1 ounce pours as samples - they are awesome. Don’t get us wrong about that. And 25 cents is a ridiculous price. Just don’t go in Utah and expect to get 25 ounce pours because they may not serve any alcohol. Ok, my experience is from like 30 years ago, so things may have changed, but when I was in my singing group we went to BYU to do a concert and the people were lovely but we went to Olive Garden for dinner and when I asked what they had on tap, they looked at me like I had three heads. But I digress. 

So, now let’s talk about potential strategies on what wines you should taste at Olive Garden with your 1 ounce pours. From what I can tell, Olive Garden has a pretty standard selection across most stores, although they may do some options that are only found at your local stores. But, based on what I saw here are some thoughts

  • Strategy #1 I will call the discerning sipper: Focus on the decent wines that Olive Garden often carries, with a balance between American varietals and an Italian wine that may be ok. They carry Chateau Ste Michelle wines, and yes, they are from the great state of Washington where we are, but we find they are consistently good, so taste whatever Ste Michelle wines they offer, and they will likely be white wines. Then, focus on red wines, specifically whatever Chianti they have available, likely from a big producer like Rocca delle Macie. Then give the Beringer Merlot or Mondavi Cabernet a try if you have to. I personally would avoid their sweet wines, and stay far away from Meiomi Pinot Noir which is a sugary, crappy wine no matter what the ads say. 
  • Strategy #2 I will call the sweet tooth: In this strategy, you are going do something completely different, and only focus on their sweet wines. These should include their white Moscato wines, I saw two of them on their menu, their sweet pink moscato, their sweet red roscato, and their Porta Vita red blend which is only 11.5% alcohol, and so is very likely on the sweet side, probably your finisher. 
  • Strategy #3 I will call they I am going to Italy but only a cruise ship approach: In this strategy, you try all of their Italian wines, red, white, and rosé regardless of sweetness, and see what you like, but know that you are only getting the most watered-down version of Italian wine possible, and not Italian wines that you would find if you actually spent real time in Italy exploring. Again, not putting down cruises, I just don’t think you can get a real taste for a country or city from a cruise. Cruises are like 1 ounce pours for that country or city

https://www.olivegarden.com/menu/wine-beer-to-go/featured-wines 

But those are just a few of the approaches you can take. If you have a different approach that works for you, or you go to an Olive Garden and test out the 1 ounce pours, please let us know! We really want to know!

Again, give us some feedback on if you like this conversation on news articles in the podcast. 

But we are not here to talk about 25 cent wine from Olive Garden, we are here to talk about a wine that, although it is very Italian, you probably won’t  find at an Olive Garden, and that is the great wine from Puglia called Primitivo, and we have two Primitivo wines to taste and review today to see if they are worth your hard earned money  . . . 

But first . . . we have to do our shameless plug.

Thank you for listening to us and for supporting our show, and if you haven’t  had the chance to do so yet, now would be the perfect time to follow or subscribe to our podcast and leave us a nice rating and review  to help us grow our listeners - and a huge thank you to all of you who have subscribed already! 

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And we want to make content you care about and you like, so send us a note or DM us and give us some feedback or let us know if there are wines you want us to try or wine making areas of the world you are curious about - and we’ll take care of it! joe@thewinepairpodcast.com

  • A shoutout to Ted G who reached out to us via the website and let us know that he tried a much lighter Douro red called Assobio that we are going to have to try, and gave us a suggestion to see if we can do an episode on Saperavi
  • A shoutout to Justin L also from the website who gave us another idea for what to name our tribe
  • A shoutout to Vegas_Des on YouTube who liked our Layer Cake wine episode
  • A shoutout to Tips2LiveBy who is going to give Chablis a shot
  • Thanks to those of you who have liked and responded to the series we are doing on IG called The Wine Drinker’s Maturity Curve - we think those are pretty fun
  • And a sort of shoutout to Timmysvino who gave us a name for our tribe that we just can’t use


And, as we do every week, we’ll tell you someone we think you should recommend The Wine Pair Podcast to - because the best way for us to grow listeners is when you tell your family and friends about us - and this week, we want you to recommend us to anyone who is heading to Italy, particularly Puglia and the great cities in that region like Bari, Lecce, Ostuni, Alberbello, Polignano a Mare, Brindisi, and others, or anyone who is going to Olive Garden, because they may want to hear what we are throwing down!


RESEARCH ARTICLES AND LINKS FOR THIS EPISODE


Topic: WTF is Primitivo? 16:12

Carmela, let’s talk about just what the fuck Primitivo is! Now, in case you were wondering, Primitivo is genetically the same as Zinfandel - so there you go. However, the roots of Primitivo are actually Croatian. So maybe we should have called this the Croatian Wine Adventure! I guess we need to go to Croatia soon!

DNA studies confirmed that Primitivo is genetically identical to Croatian grapes such as Crljenak Kaštelanski and Tribidrag. It is also known as Kratošija in Montenegro.

Primitivo is thought to have been introduced to Italy's Puglia region in the 18th century, and wouldn’t you know it, monks are said to have brought across the Adriatic Sea from Dalmatia. I’m telling you. If you want to know about the history of wine and beer making in Europe, follow the monks!

The name Primitivo is said to originate from the Latin word Primativus which means roughly “first life” and Primitivo is, as you would guess from that clue, it is an early ripening grape. This is important in a place like Puglia which is pretty warm. Early ripening helps it avoid autumn rains, ensures the grapes reach full maturity and sugar levels to create the bold wine it is known to be, and this also leads to high alcohol content in the finished product. It is not unusual for Primitivo (and Zinfandel) to be 15% or higher alcohol. This is also why Zin is a great wine for California.

Evidently, one of the challenges with Primitivo is the grapes can ripen unevenly, so for this reason, winemakers have to do a lot of hand harvesting and sorting in the winemaking process. In addition, the vines can create very high yields of grapes if they are not carefully managed, so there is a lot of work to prune the vines and manage the harvest. In the next section on the specific wines we chose, we’ll talk about the Alberello vine training system, not to be confused with Alberobello, the beautiful town we went to near Bari with the amazing Trulli houses, which you will see in the cover art for this episode.

Originally, because of high yields, a lot of Primitivo was made into inexpensive bulk wines with super high alcohol levels and tons of tannin that was sometimes used as a blending wine in places like Tuscany, and so this reputation stuck with Primitivo for a while. On a side note, I think that some of this style of winemaking came over to America with Italian immigrants like from our families who made homemade wines that were super rough and high in alcohol. In fact, I think it may have been your dad, but someone told me that they would often pour in spirits, like whisky, into the wine barrels where the wine was fermenting to kill the yeast and end fermentation. I am sure that also led to some of the roughness in the wines they made.

Back to Primitivo and overcoming its bad reputation, Like a lot of Italian wines, Primitivo continued this rough patch in reputation before rebounding pretty recently into a more respected wine. In fact, in the 1990s, Primitivo was at such a low point the European Union offered financial incentives (bribes practically) to growers to pull up their vines to decrease the volume of low-quality wine. In the early 2000s, however, helped by the discovery that Primitvo and California Zinfandel were the same grape, there was a renaissance around the and higher quality wines began to be created. Today, Puglia is the 6th largest producer of DOC and DOCG wines in Italy, again, those are the highest wine region designations in Italy, so that is saying something.

There are several appellations for Primitivo. The two we have today are both from Salento which is an IGT, which is technically a lower classification or designation in Italy, but we tend to find IGT wines excellent. Salento is near Lecce, which is an awesome city, called the Florence of Southern Italy for good reason, but the largest appellation is Primitivo di Manduria which is closer to the city of Taranto in Puglia and has the DOC and DOCG distinctions. Another important DOC is Gioia del Colle. In total, there are eight DOC zones for Primitivo across Italy, including one in Campania, but it is considered a Pugliese wine primarily.

Overall, Primitivo is a big wine, but when balanced carefully with alcohol and tannin, it can be a really juicy and exciting wine. Interestingly, the high alcohol can serve to really balance the wine when done right, and perfect examples of that in the US are from our beloved Turley Zinfandels from California.

And, as we mentioned after our Italy trip, we had some really great rosatos - that is the Italian word for rosé wine - made from Primitivo, which was awesome in the really hot weather we ran into.

But that’s enough background. I think it’s time to learn a little more about the specific wines we are drinking today. Whaddya say?


Primitivo Wines We Chose for This Episode 23:24

As usual, the wines we have chosen for this episode are under $25, and both of them should be relatively easy to find because I bought them at wine.com. Now, although Zinfandel is pretty easy to find Primitivo really shouldn’t be too tough either. Any place with a decent wine selection, and a decent Italian wine selection should carry it, and you can always chat with your local wine shop, too. 

The first wine we are going to drink is the 2023 Masseria Le Veli Orion Primitivo. It is an IGT, as I mentioned before. But, as proof that the designation often has nothing really to do with wine quality, this wine has 91 ratings from Robert Parker, Wine Enthusiast, and Vinous. 

The tech sheet says the soils are clay with limestone rock, they use malolactic fermentation in stainless steel tanks, and they age the wine for 6 months in barriques, which are smaller oak barrels, and 3 months in the bottle. 

A little about the winery: In 1999, the Falvo family acquired a 128-acre run-down property located in the sunny and fertile Salento region on the southeastern peninsula or ‘heel’ of Italy; They came from Tuscany and set out to rejuvenate the vineyards and cellar they bought. 

Back to something I mentioned earlier, the wines are cultivated in the ancient ‘albarello’ or bush-trained method, sometimes called head-trained or goblet trained, allowing the vines optimal sun and wind exposure yet providing an umbrella of vegetation to protect the berries from too much sun. If you have ever seen grape vines that look like little trees, that is what we are talking about

The winery has been certified organic since 2005 which may be something you are looking for.

The next wine we are going to drink is the 2023 Castello Monaci Pilùna Primitivo. This one has a rating of, you guessed it, 90 from James Suckling, but we will not hold that against it.

The name Pilùna means clay pot, specifically an ancient container used to store water or wine. According to the winery, “This 100% Primitivo is grown from vineyards surrounding the ancient Castello Monaci estate. Soils are a blend of dry clay, volcanic gravel and limestone. Vines are forced deep in search of water, leading to low yields and rich, fragrant wines. Harvest is done by hand prior to dawn to preserve sugar levels and avoid the hot sunlight. The grapes are vinified in small stainless steel tanks prior to 6 months of aging in 75% stainless steel and 25% 2nd and 3rd use French oak.”

This winery is also in Salento, so the same area in the heel as the Masseria wine. The Castello Monaci estate is a 16th century castle with medieval foundations once run by Basiliani monks who maintained a long winemaking tradition. See, we weren’t kidding about the monks! It is supposed to be a beautiful estate, very popular for weddings. The winery is managed by Italy’s largest wine company called Gruppo Italiano Vino, which is saying something because there are some large wine holding companies in Italy. 

But, I think that is enough information - let’s get to drinking! We’ll take a quick break and be right back. And, if you have these wines or similar wines, drink along with us to get some participation points, which you can trade-in for free stickers. You just need to send me an email with your mailing address, and I will get those “I drink with The Wine Pair Podcast” stickers over to you!


LINKS TO SOURCES FOR THESE SPECIFIC WINES



2023 Masseria Le Veli Orion Primitivo, 2023 Castello Monaci Pilùna Primitivo
 Wine Tasting, Pairing, and Review 28:00

Wine: Masseria Le Veli Orion Primitivo (Click here to find this wine on wine.com. We may be compensated if you purchase.)
Region: Italy, Puglia
Year: 2023
Price: $17.97
Retailer: wine.com
Alcohol: 14%
Grapes: Primitivo
Professional Rating: RP 91, WE 91, V 91 Vivino 4.1

What we tasted and smelled in this Masseria Le Veli Orion Primitivo: 

  • Color: Burgundy red, translucent, a touch like a Pinot Noir, a little viscosity
  • On the nose: Cherry, perfumy alcohol, fruity, pomegranate, tartness, plum, rose petals, fragrant, pipe tobacco
  • In the mouth: Tart almost underripe cherry, sweet pipe tobacco, can taste some alcohol, cherry cordial, a bit of cocoa, strong tannin


Food to pair with this Masseria Le Veli Orion Primitivo: Versatile, pork chops, steakhouse wine, pork ribs, beef ribs, barbecue, spicy foods would balance well with the sweetness in the wine, broccoli beef
 
As a reminder on our rating scale, we rate on a scale of 1-10, with no half points, where 7 and above means that we would buy it, and 4 and below means that we are likely to pour it down the sink, and a 5 or 6 means we are likely to drink it and finish it, but we are not going to buy it. 

Masseria Le Veli Orion Primitivo Wine Rating: 

  • Joe: 7/10
  • Carmela: 7/10


Wine: Castello Monaci Pilùna Primitivo (Click here to find this wine on wine.com. We may be compensated if you purchase.)
Region: Italy, Puglia
Year: 2023
Price: $17.97
Retailer: wine.com
Alcohol: 14%
Grapes: Primitivo
Professional Rating:JS 90 Vivino 3.8

What we tasted and smelled in this Castello Monaci Pilùna Primitivo: 

  • Color: Ruby red 
  • On the nose: Cherry, strawberry, mushroom and dirt on the swirl, red licorice, black licorice, sweet tobacco, jammy, straw berry syrup, almost a Nebbiolo smell
  • In the mouth: Felt thick on the lips, round, juicy, fruity, cherry, cherry Twizzler


Food to pair with this Castello Monaci Pilùna Primitivo: Good with food, grilled foods, red meat, white meats, pork tenderloin, wings, a great tailgating wine, also an elegant dinner party wine


Castello Monaci Pilùna Primitivo Wine Rating: 

  • Joe: 8/10
  • Carmela: 7/10



Which one of these are you finishing tonight?

  • Carmela: Le Veli Orion Primitivo
  • Joe: Castello Monaci Pilùna Primitivo



Taste profiles expected from Primitivo 40:40

  • General 
    • Intense aromas of blackberry, black cherry, raspberry, plum, and even blueberry. 
    • Hints of cinnamon, black pepper, and sometimes sweet vanilla. 
    • Secondary & Earthy Notes: Layers of tobacco, licorice, figs, and a touch of leather or earthy tones can be present.
    • Fruit compote. Rustic on the finish
  • Masseria Le Veli Orion Primitivo
    • WE: The nose is simultaneously heavy, fresh and elegant, with flavours of black cherries, blackberries and dark chocolate, along with undertones of orange peel and stones. All these notes reappear on the palate, which is bitter but friendly as the acidity rises to the top.
    • V: Opens in the glass with dusty blackcurrants, exotic spices, crushed chalk and violets. It envelops the palate with silken textures, ripe wild berry fruits and a contrasting tinge of sour citrus as licorice nuances saturate toward the close. The 2023 finishes lightly structured and admirably long, leaving behind hints of sour cherry and a pleasant chewiness. Masseria Li Veli overdelivers with this balanced Primitivo
  • Castello Monaci Pilùna Primitivo
    • Winery: Broad, ripe black fruit and spice aromas, with notes of pepper, toasty vanilla and Mediterranean scrub. On the palate, the wine has a robust, concentrated character, a firm structure, and small black fruit and licorice notes on the aftertaste.
    • JS: Sour cherries, sultanas, dried oranges and sweet spices on the nose, followed by a medium- to full-bodied, jammy and lightly sweet-sour palate. Ripe tannins.



What is your verdict on Primitivo? 43:23
Rally like it. A good wine and a crowd pleaser that is underrated.

Outro and how to find The Wine Pair Podcast 44:16

Ok, so, Carmela, it’s time for us to go, but before we do, we want to thank you very much for listening to us - and if you haven’t done so yet, now would be the perfect time to follow or subscribe to our podcast and also a fantastic time to leave us a nice rating and review on our website or Apple podcasts or other podcast app - and it is an awesome and free way to support us and help us grow listeners.

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