The Wine Pair Podcast

Orange Wine, One More Time!

• The Wine Pair • Season 1 • Episode 188

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Is Orange wine still a vibe wine? A couple of years after our first episode on Orange wine, we revisit it to see if it’s still all that. The verdict? It is! We dig into what Orange wine is, how it is made, and what makes it different from the other styles and colors of wine, namely red, white, and rosé. And we will spare you the drama - it is not made from oranges. It is a white wine where the juice is left on the skins, hence the color. Although it seems hip, new, and trendy, Orange wine is a very ancient winemaking technique most famously made thousands of years ago in the country of Georgia. What people are attracted to about Orange wine is not just the color, but the fact that it is often associated with natural and low-intervention winemaking techniques. Listen in to learn more, to hear our podcast tribe name of the week from listener Lindsay, and a story about church wine in Kenya hitting the bars in our Wine in the News This Week section. Wines reviewed in this episode: 2024 Côté Mas Orange Vin de France, Borgo Savaian Masarêt (AKA Aransat) Skins are Kings Orange Wine

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Show Notes

Episode #188: Orange Wine, One More Time!  00:00

Hello fellow Winos! And welcome to The Wine Pair Podcast. I’m Joe, your sommelier of reasonably priced wine, and this is my wife and my wine pairing partner in crime, Carmela. And we are The Wine Pair!

If you are new to our podcast, here is what you can expect. If you love wine and want to find great wines at affordable prices, and you want to expand your wine horizons, and you want to have some laughs and fun while doing it - then you are in the right place! Each week we explore a different wine varietal, style, brand, or region of the winemaking world, and learn about what makes them worth knowing about. And then we taste 2-3 of those wines that are reasonably priced to let you know if they are worth your hard earned money. If that feels like your vibe, then we are super happy you are here. And, we are proud to say that Decanter Magazine calls us fun, irreverent, chatty, and entertaining.

Well, Carmela, we are revisiting a wine we did an episode on about two and half years ago based on an ask from our friend Oregon Mobile Esthetics on Instagram. Orange wine is a vibe wine, and it is a style of wine rather than a wine made from a specific grape or blend of grapes (and definitely not Oranges), and so we are back to do an episode on Orange Wine one more time. And as an extra bonus, one of the wines we are drinking today we picked up at Trader Joe’s, so this may be a wine those of you out there in listening land have either had or were wondering if you should pick up. And we will let you know.

But we have a few things to do before we get to Orange wine. And first we need to learn more about the name of our tribe today, so let’s head on over to meet listener Lindsay who gave this name to us!

Interview with Listener Lindsay on our Tribe Name for the Week 02:30

Carmela, Lindsay was awesome, and he said to say hi to you, so there you go. You didn’t get to hear it, but Lindsay is also not a big fan of Orange wine. Again, I am loving meeting our listeners and learning about their lives and just hanging out for a few minutes to connect. It’s so awesome to find out who is on the other end of the speaker - because you get to know us, but we want to get to know you! And we love getting their ideas for names for our tribe, so please keep them coming and we will ask you if you want to be a guest on the podcast, but there is zero obligation if you would rather not.

Alright Carmela, as we said, Orange wine is on the menu today, but before we get there, we need to get to our very important news segment. That’s right, it’s time for  . . .

WIne in the news this week: Kenya’s party culture forces Catholic Church to replace altar wine  07:02


As a couple who were raised Catholic, this week’s news is quite surprising and kind of funny. I think you will appreciate this one, Carmela. Before I tell you what the news is, I have a question for you. From a purely taste perspective, what is your impression of sacramental wine they serve in Catholic masses?

Well, listen to this headline: Kenya’s party culture forces Catholic Church to replace altar wine. Yes, it turns out that the maker of the wine that Catholic churches in Kenya were using was not only showing up in bars, hotels, and liquor stores, but consumers in Kenya were actually liking it and started asking for it by name. According to reports from the BBC and other sources we have links to in our show notes, bottles of wine that were originally intended for church ceremonies were being sold to thirsty customers for a profit.

So the Catholic Church felt it had a little bit of a problem on its hands.

The bishops decided to pull that wine from use and replace it with a new one called Mass Wine, which is being imported from South Africa and distributed exclusively by the Kenya Conference of Catholic Bishops. No more supermarket sales for this wine. The new bottle even bears the bishops’ coat of arms and a signature to certify it’s the real deal. The Church says it’s about keeping something intended for worship from turning into the next trendy house pour.

Now here’s the part that’s truly wild, and kind of hilarious if you’ve ever had “church wine.” Typically, altar wine isn’t exactly top-shelf. It’s designed to meet certain purity and storage standards, not to impress sommeliers. But in Kenya, people apparently found it smooth, sweet, and drinkable enough to become a bit of a hit. 

No one’s publicly naming the old brand, it was made by a local alcohol producer and distributed widely, but the fact that it became cool is the weirdest part. Imagine going into a bar and ordering “a glass of altar wine” like it’s a cab from Napa.

And so, that brings us to a few questions

  • Have you ever had wine at Mass and thought, “You know what, I’d actually drink this at dinner”?
  • Do you think the popularity came from the taste, or just the novelty of saying you were drinking “altar wine”?
  • I guess, what would you think if we flipped the script and they started serving good quality Pinot Noir at Mass?


But we are not here to talk about church wine or why people in Kenya are choosing to drink church wine outside of church, no, today we are here to learn about Orange wine, why it is a vibe, and if it’s still what the cool kids drink, and we have two Orange wines we are going to taste and review today to see if they are any good . . .

But first . . . we have to do our shameless plug.

Thank you for listening to us and for supporting our show, and remember, we do all of this work and effort to bring you a show every week and all we ask you for in return is that you please follow or subscribe to our podcast and also please leave us a nice rating and review  to help us grow our listeners - and a huge thank you to all of you who have subscribed already! 

You can also follow us on Instagram at thewinepairpodcast, and on Bluesky. You can contact us on our website thewinepairpodcast.com, and you can sign up for our email newsletter there and you can also visit our “Shop Wine” and “Shop Accessories” sections where you can find links to buy the wines that we rate as buys in each episode and accessories we think are great choices for wine lovers and as gifts, too. 

And we want to make content you care about and you like, so send us a note or DM us and give us some feedback or let us know if there are wines you want us to try or wine making areas of the world you are curious about - and we’ll take care of it! joe@thewinepairpodcast.com

  • Shoutout to listener Adrienne who shared some Amber wine she liked (timely), suggested we do a Mexican wine episode, and talked about visiting Astor wines in NYC. Love that place!
  • Justin who we had on a few weeks ago who wanted us to do some episodes on funky wines, so maybe I’ll pull out that Jura I didn’t like. 
  • JDM who reminded us that Wine Folly has also not commented on pairing Chianti with liver and fava beans


And, as we do every week, we’ll tell you someone we think you should recommend The Wine Pair Podcast to - because the best way for us to grow listeners is when you tell your family and friends about us - and this week, we want you to recommend us to anyone who has been wondering if Orange wine is for them, or hasn’t yet found an Orange wine that works for them, because they may dig this episode. But don’t tell Lindsay because he doesn’t want to hear about it.


RESEARCH ARTICLES AND LINKS FOR THIS EPISODE


Topic: WTF is Orange Wine? 14:20

Alright, Carmela, it is time to find out just what the eff Orange wine is. 

Now, again, you can get some of this information from way back in Episode 71 (we are on episode 188 if you were wondering), but we’ll review just a few of the must know basics again, and we’ll cover some updated information, too, including if Orange wine is still all that and a box of crackers.

Orange wine is sometimes also called skin-contact white wine or amber wine or even Ramato in Italy, but maybe the best way to describe it is that it is basically a fourth color category of wine, alongside red, white, and rosé. For ease of understanding, think of Orange wine as the sister to rosé wine, the difference being that rosé wine is made from red wine grapes while Orange wine is made from white wine grapes. 

So, just to clarify in case you were confused, again, it is not made from oranges. I think the confusion comes from the name, and probably why it is sometimes called those other names. The name Orange wine comes from the unique color it gets during the winemaking process. The color can be light, like a deep gold, or much darker, like amber, copper, or even brick orange.

The thing that makes orange wine unique is maceration, also known as "skin contact.” And skin contact is super important when making wine. When you think about color in wine, think skins.

To make regular white wine, winemakers crush white grapes and quickly remove the skins, seeds, and stems. They only ferment the clear juice. To make red wine, winemakers crush red grapes and leave the juice on the skins to get the red color from the skin. So, again, the key to a wine’s color 99% of the time is the color of the grape skin itself because, except in very few cases, the juice is clear.

To make orange wine, winemakers crush white grapes, but then leave the juice (must) sitting with the skins as well as the seeds, and sometimes even the stems while it ferments. This is the exact method usually reserved for making red wine. This skin contact time can be as short as a few hours or as long as several months.

And it is this skin contact that is what makes Orange wine Orange wine. Leaving the skins in contact with the fermenting juice is like steeping a teabag for a long time. The grape skins contain things like tannins and color pigments. The tannins give Orange wine that feeling of dryness or even sometimes stickiness in your mouth, along with some sensations and tastes of bitterness and astringency. 

Orange wines can have many different flavors depending on the grapes used, and sometimes those tastes are unusual for wine, like dried apricot, ginger, honey, or herbal tea. And that’s why you can’t really say you like or don’t like Orange wine until you have tried a few different types. 

While orange wine seems trendy, it is actually an ancient winemaking method. The style is said to date back approximately 6,000 to 8,000 years to the country of Georgia where they fermented the wine underground clay pots called qvevri. More recently, the technique was revived by winemakers in Northeast Italy (like the Collio region where they are making Ramato) and Slovenia.

Orange wine, despite being an ancient style of winemaking, is once again popular for a variety of reasons like modern and trendy consumer preferences, social media influence, and a reaction against traditional wine snobbery. And, it seems to be moving from hipster wine to more mainstream. 

Here are some of the reasons Orange wine became popular:

  • First, Orange wine meets a major consumer preference for products that are artisanal, traditional, and sustainable. 
  • The style is also frequently associated with the "natural wine" or low-intervention movement, attracting an audience that wants less processed or manipulated foods. Winemakers who use this technique often ferment with wild yeasts and avoid temperature control which can give the wines a lot of, should we say, character.
  • Speaking of character, for some consumers, orange wine gives a much desired unique sensory experience, including unexpected and sometimes challenging aromas and tastes. It is not unusual for Orange wines to be described as “funky” or “complex” or “contemplative” - and because there is so much variation in the wines depending on the grapes, and producers, etc., the wine can be really fun and exciting to try. 
  • Its popularity was also helped by the fact that social media like TikTok really amplified it. 
  • One good outcome of this popularity, however, is that it made people challenge the common approach to wine that we ourselves are pretty allergic to, Carmela, in terms of big, fat, flabby, mass-produced, punch-you-in-the-face California wines, and also to help people look for wines from different parts of the world. 
  • It also got some people into wine who may not normally take to it, and allowed them to access a wine that wine snobs were much less likely to be focused on, so it sort of democratized wine a bit. A little bit of a jab to the snobs, amiright?!?


So, the final question we are going to explore is - are Orange wines still the hot ticket?

The short answer is that Orange wine is still a growing wine category. Data analysts predict the global orange wine market will grow by nearly $27 million to reach $67 million in the next decade. That is strong growth, but still a drop in the bucket for a global wine market estimated at over $100 billion.

However, while sales grow, the cultural perception of Orange wine is facing some scrutiny, and there has been a bit of backlash, too. Some commentators have called orange wine a fad. The rush to make Orange wine has also led to some pretty shitty, mediocre wines hitting the market, making some people question the quality broadly of the category.

Look, we feel about Orange wine the way we feel about all wine. Orange wine is neither good nor bad in and of itself. It is all about your taste in wine, and that comes down to the grapes, the producers, the technique, the dirt, the climate, etc. So, we are not as opinionated as we used to be about wine styles, we used to be totally dismissive of rosé for instance, but today, we realize that it all depends on the winemaker and grapes and area of the world.

And, while the taste of Orange wine will totally depend on the winemaker and the grapes, you should still expect a wine that has more body, more tannin, less fruit, and more bitterness and funkiness than a white wine.

But that’s enough information. I think it’s time to learn a little more about the specific wines we are drinking today. Whaddya say?


Orange Wines We Chose for This Episode 26:16

As usual, the wines we have chosen for this episode are under $25, and at least one of them should be relatively easy to find because I bought it at Trader Joe’s. The other wine I found at a cute little wine shop on Capital HIll here in Seattle called Agora Wine after we had seen a comedy show with my brother and his husband next door. So, Orange wine should not be hard to find. But that’s like saying rosé wine is not hard to find, or red wine. The key is finding out what Orange wine grapes you tend to like and seeking that out. And, your local wine merchant, especially one that focuses on natural wines or low intervention wines, will have no problem finding you an Orange wine you like. And that is one of the reasons I just picked up a random Orange wine at a local wine shop because that very well may be the way you are going to find one as well. And that’s ok. 

The first wine we are going to drink is the 2024 Côté Mas Orange Vin de France which I picked up at Trader Joe’s for $14, and I did that on purpose because I wanted to find a wine that you all out there in listening land should be able to find and then you can see if your tasting of the wine matches ours, and you can start to understand what wines you like. It is also a 1 liter bottle. Holy crap. 

There was a tech sheet for this wine, and it says that this wine comes from the Languedoc area of France. Languedoc is in the very southeast part of France, near Spain and on the Mediterranean. This means it is a warmer climate wine making area that you would find in, say, Burgundy. 

Here is some other information that came from the tech sheet:

  • Soils are composed of clay and limestone, located at the foothills of the Pyrenees, in the Roussillon sub-region. Vines age from 7–35 years old.
  • The Mediterranean climate is warm and dry
  • The grapes are harvested at night. Destemming is followed by a short maceration (6- 8 days) under controlled temperatures. The color of the wine is obtained through this maceration. 
  • Pumping over is done several times to extract a maximum of fruit and aromas while preserving the natural process that results in a structured and supple wine.


And, the most important part, other than the winemaker, is the grapes. So this wine is made from 55% Grenache Blanc, 25% Grenache Gris, 20% Macabeu (mah-ka-bayo). Grenache blanc and gris are going to give some texture and body and some orchard fruit, while Macabeau is going to give freshness and crispness.

The next wine we are going to drink is the one from the small wine shop called Agora Wine in Seattle, and I will tell you that once I got it home I had a heck of a time finding out what it was, but I think I got it. The wine I picked up is called Borgo Savaian Masarêt Skins are Kings Orange Wine. However, there was almost no information online about this specific wine. 

There was, however, quite a bit of information about the wine from the same producer, grapes, and even Skins are Kings name called Aransat, and so we are going to use all of the information from the Aransat because I am 99.997% sure the wine has just been renamed. The wine also did not come with a vintage, so that made it a little extra tricky.

The winemaker is Nicola Biasi, and the wine is made from a blend of Pinot Grigio, which is the classic Ramato wine grape, and Sauvignon Blanc. The name Aransat is slang for orange in the Friuli region. The tech sheet for the wine gives this information:

  • They use sustainable farming practices and operate as organically as possible.
  • The Grapes are de-stemmed, which is interesting, and they use natural fermentation on the skins in stainless steel tanks at warmer temperatures
  • Post fermentation maceration on skins lasted about 90 days. 
  • The wine is unfiltered and racked twice prior to bottling. So, the racking is a means of removing sediment by moving it from one container to another, leaving the sediment at the bottom of the first container. 
  • I believe this wine is also Vegan


The winery is actually only about 12 kilometers or 6-ish miles from the Slovenia border, and it is a relatively small winery and vineyard run by Nicola and his family. And, I like this, they say they focus on indigenous grape varieties and they try to live in harmony with their surroundings. Which sounds really nice

So, this will be interesting because we have two pretty different Orange wines made by winemakers using different grape blends, and my feeling is that the Italian winemaker is a bit more low intervention than Paul Mas who is a pretty big wine producer.

But, I think that is enough information - let’s get to drinking! We’ll take a quick break and be right back. And, if you have these wines or similar wines, drink along with us to get some participation points, which you can trade-in for free stickers. And I am trying to give you more of a heads-up on what we are going to be drinking in upcoming episodes, so you can check out our show notes to learn more.


LINKS TO SOURCES FOR THESE SPECIFIC WINES


2024 Côté Mas Orange Vin de France, Borgo Savaian Masarêt (AKA Aransat) Skins are Kings Orange Wine Tasting, Pairing, and Review 33:55

Wine: Côté Mas Orange Vin de France
Region: France, Languedoc
Year: 2024
Price: $13.99
Retailer: Trader Joe’s
Alcohol: 13%
Grapes: 55% Grenache Blanc, 25% Grenache Gris, 20% Macabeu (mah-ka-bayo)
Professional Rating: JS 90 Vivino 3.8

What we tasted and smelled in this Côté Mas Orange Vin de France: 

  • Color: Very light orange, amber
  • On the nose: Maple, brown sugar, caramel, orchard fruit, dried apricot, stone fruit 
  • In the mouth: Like a sweet white wine, easy drinking, more body than a typical white wine, good bitterness on the end, seashell, not super funky or challenging, apricot, raisin, Fig Newton filling, spiciness, peach cobbler with caramelized brown sugar on it, easy drinking, a crowd pleaser


Food to pair with this Côté Mas Orange Vin de France: Thanksgiving wine which would look great on the table, sweet potatoes, fall food, spicy foods like Indian foods, shrimp, fried fish, salmon, fish taco
 
As a reminder on our rating scale, we rate on a scale of 1-10, with no half points, where 7 and above means that we would buy it, and 4 and below means that we are likely to pour it down the sink, and a 5 or 6 means we are likely to drink it and finish it, but we are probably not going to buy it. 

Côté Mas Orange Vin de France Wine Rating: 

  • Joe: 7/10
  • Carmela: 7/10


Wine: Borgo Masarêt Skins are Kings Orange AKA Aransat
Region: Italy, Friuli
Year: N/A
Price: $23.00
Retailer: Agora Wine
Alcohol: 13%
Grapes: Pinot Grigio, Sauvignon Blanc
Professional Rating: Vivino

What we tasted and smelled in this Borgo Savaian Masarêt Skins are Kings Orange: 

  • Color: Dark orange, pumpkin orange
  • On the nose: Worcester sauce, umami, miso, orange chicken with pineapple, some spice, clove, cinnamon 
  • In the mouth: A little salty, stone fruit, orange rind, orange marmalade, some bite, a lot of body, minerality, complexity, potpourri, flower petals


Food to pair with this Borgo Savaian Masarêt Skins are Kings Orange: Spicy foods, Indian food, fried foods, baked chicken

Borgo Savaian Masarêt Skins are Kings Orange Wine Rating: 

  • Joe: 8/10
  • Carmela: 6/10



Which one of these are you finishing tonight?

  • Carmela: Côté Mas Orange Vin de France
  • Joe: Borgo Masarêt Skins are Kings Orange AKA Aransat



Taste profiles expected from Orange wine  46:18

  • General 
    • While the taste is going to totally vary by the grapes used and the producer, in general, expect some bitterness, funkiness, heavier mouth feel and a lot more tannin than a white wine, and not as much fruit as you might expect from a white wine. 
  • Côté Mas Orange Vin de France
    • Winery: Complex aromas of citrus with notes of white flowers and candied fruit. On the palate, tangerine and spices and a tannic mouthfeel with slight acidity
    • JS: A juicy, vivid and delicious blend of grenache blanc, grenache gris and macabeu, showcasing notes of oranges, grapefruit and fresh flowers. It’s medium-bodied with a lovely stream of succulent fruit on the palate and a creamy yet refreshing finish
    • Fine Wine and Good Spirits: A complex nose of rich, candied citrus and chamomile flowers. On the palate the wine is dry with perceptible tannins and shows vivid tangerine flavors complimented by exotic spices and dried herbal teas.
  • Borgo Savaian Masarêt Skins are Kings Orange
    • Winery: Very intense. Ripe fruit. Hints of apricot and vanilla.
    • Big Nose Full Body: An extremely savory, and nutty bottling from this Friulian producer. ot at all fruity, this wine exhibits notes of bruised peach, tea, and cashews.
    • The Raleigh Wine Shop: Delicate and enticing aromas of white flowers introduce a savory palate of lemon zest and cantaloupe with fresh acidity and a lingering finish.

What is your verdict on Orange wine? 48:13
Love it, love the idea and vibe behind it. Fun to mix it up, fun gift wine, something different to share with your friends

Wines coming up in future episodes 48:48


Outro and how to find The Wine Pair Podcast 49:05

Ok, so, Carmela, it’s time for us to go, but before we do, we want to thank you very much for listening to us - and if you haven’t done so yet, now would be the perfect time to follow or subscribe to our podcast and also a fantastic time to leave us a nice rating and review on our website or Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts - and it is an awesome and free way to support us and help us grow listeners.

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Alright, with that, we are going to sign off, so thanks again, and we will see you next time. And, as we say, life is short, so stop drinking shitty wine.

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